Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans would impeach Biden if he bit into a whole Kit Kat rather than breaking the sections apart.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

“Let’s not pretend [Trump] wants to engage in high-minded discourse.”

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

We still have time to mess this up!

Elections aren’t won by handwringing, cowering, and/or bashing your own candidates.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Spilling the end game before they can coat it in frankl luntz-approved dogwhistles.

Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” is supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.

Another missed opportunity for Jamie Dimon to just shut the fuck up.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. don’t touch it.”

Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about it’s history.”

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

The arc of the moral universe doesn’t bend itself. it’s up to us.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

You are here: Home / Politics / Two Great Speeches, Two Great Leaders (Open Thread)

Two Great Speeches, Two Great Leaders (Open Thread)

by | 212 Comments

This post is in: ,

With so much news yesterday, many of us weren’t able to watch/follow everything.

Two great speeches, two great leaders.

I watched Biden’s speech yesterday.  Very impressive.  I am watching Zelenskyy’s speech right now.  I am two minutes in and I am blown away.

Pairing this with the fundraising thread so to give folks an obvious spot for conversation.

We are lucky to have both at this particular point in history.

Totally open thread.

Reader Interactions

212Comments

  1. 1.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    Yes, both speeches were really stirring and effective! And for me, as someone who would gleefully fling myself into a volcano rather than give a public speech, it’s amazingly impressive.

    I also want to link to this Colbert interview with Dmytro Kuleba, Ukraine’s Minister of Foreign Affairs. It was nice to hear from him and I especially appreciated his distinction between being afraid and having fear–that you can of course be afraid to lose a loved one or something, but that doesn’t mean you have any fear of the enemy.

  2. 2.

    Raoul Paste

    When Trump talked to the General Assembly, he was laughed at.  And I remember him saying “I didn’t expect that reaction”

  7. 7.

    zhena gogolia

    if people on this website could tweet just a little harder about the ethics of Russia’s protest culture or lack thereof, really getting to the root of who deserves my moral respect, i think we could make a true breakthrough and soon— Kevin Rothrock (@KevinRothrock) September 21, 2022

  13. 13.

    Baud

    @zhena gogolia:

    I don’t understand the obsession with looking into people’s hearts to assess purity of purpose.  You saw it with people’s reaction to Liz Cheney too.  I would think the focus should be on whether the action at issue advances or impedes our goals.  We’re not looking to make friends with anyone.

  14. 14.

    Geminid

    @zhena gogolia: I remember when Foreign Secretary Kuleba met with his Russian counterpart in Antalya, Turkiye. The talks were mediated by the Turkish Foreign Minister and were over quickly. This was in early March and now seems like a long time ago.

  15. 15.

    FelonyGovt

    Am I the only one who worries quite a lot about Zelensky’s safety? I’m sure he’s well protected, but imagine how strongly they’re targeting him.

  16. 16.

    Josie

    @FelonyGovt: You are not the only one. Every time I see him on Adam’s post, I am thankful that he has made it through another day. I’m sure they are working hard to keep him safe, but it is scary.

  18. 18.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @FelonyGovt: I worry constantly. Yesterday, his nightly address went up a couple hours later than usual, and I was refreshing his FB page every minute and chewing my fingertips off.

    I love that he goes to visit troops and such, but every time I see those pics, I’m like, can we make a human-sized hamster ball out of impenetrable material for him to travel around in, please.

    I say a prayer every night for the safety of all Ukrainians, and especially for him.

  21. 21.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    LOL but I do love the Ze maintains his humor during all of this. He did a video interview with a German publication, and the first question the guy asked started with “Many people have watched putin’s speech this morning…” and Zelenskyy cut in with “Except me!” LOL

  25. 25.

    Bupalos

    @zhena gogolia: It’s driving me nuts, but I will take somewhat of a rejoinder too- that people are understandably angry and stressed beyond their capacity for deliberate and nuanced reasoning.

    It’s counterproductive but understandable to do what some are doing – driving what really is one of the clearest moral cases of our lifetime beyond it’s breaking point. Denying details and difference and driving it to where they are smearing or rooting for the deaths of allies, in the name of lumping everyone together in a simple narrative.

  26. 26.

    Elizabelle

    @zhena gogolia:

    Your point about the Vietnam War protests is what was keeping me up at night. Like those were about the poor Vietnamese.

    Missed that one.  What was Omnes’ point?  What thread?  Thank you.

  30. 30.

    zhena gogolia

    @Elizabelle: Adam (following the lead of a lot of Ukrainian tweeters) dismissed the Russian protests as only being motivated by their not wanting to die. When I asked him how he could know that, he said because the protests didn’t start until the draft (of course there were protests at the beginning of the war, but then it was announced that protesting would lead to 7 years imprisonment, backed up by several such sentences, so they stopped; how many Americans would protest undoer those conditions?). Omnes asked when it was that our Vietnam protests heated up. (answer, the draft)

  31. 31.

    zhena gogolia

    I give Ukrainians a pass on any such comments. But if you’re sitting safely in the United States, knock it off.

  32. 32.

    ian

    @Baud:

    We’re not looking to make friends with anyone.

    That and your refusal to wear pants are why you can’t come to the slumber party.

  37. 37.

    LAO

    I’m reposting cause I got my nym wrong  oops

    @Omnes Omnibus: hey there. What do you make of Cannon’s weird take-backsies? Other than rendering the 11th Circuit’s stay order moot and unreviewable, it still seems very odd to me. I’ve never seen a district court do this before. Have you?

  40. 40.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @LAO: Her whole set of actions in this is the least professional thing I have seen a judge do.  And I have been at parties in chambers.

  41. 41.

    rikyrah

    @FelonyGovt:

     

    Am I the only one who worries quite a lot about Zelensky’s safety? I’m sure he’s well protected, but imagine how strongly they’re targeting him.

    Not the only one. Everytime I see him making a speech, I’m grateful that he lived to see another day.

  44. 44.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Bupalos: Ukrainians look at Iran now and see a reflection of themselves. Recall that in very recent memory they took to the streets in the hundreds of thousands (at one point arguably a million) for *months*  *in the winter* to depose a corrupt autocrat. Scores were killed.

    They look at russia and see an acceptance, and in many cases enthusiastic support of a war intended to erase them. That contrast is front and center every day.

  45. 45.

    Josie

    @Baud: ​
     Exactly. Just as in our own political situation, I don’t care what is “in their hearts.” It’s the actions that people take that are important in the grand scheme of things.

  50. 50.

    LAO

    @Omnes Omnibus: ok. Yeah, I agree and I’ve never been to a party in chambers.

    @Citizen Alan: Cannon struck the portions of her order that were subject to the 11th cir stay, including altering the powers of the Special Master. So, it’s as if she never ordered it. It’s strange. Not how things are ordinarily done because it deprives the plaintiff from appealing the stay. Which in this case, doesn’t really bother me but is actually pretty terrible in practice.

  54. 54.

    James E Powell

    @BenCisco 🇺🇸🎖️🖥️♦️:

    It is refreshing to have a President who speaks intelligently with purpose, insight, and heart.

    I will never understand why he is not more popular with the people. And the press – the people who had a front row seat to the shit show that was Trump – seem to dislike him too.

    I don’t mean ragingly popular, just not hated.

  55. 55.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @zhena gogolia: I’m a little confused by this discussion, because you and others seem to be disagreeing with the notion that russians protesting are only doing it out of self-interest. You asked Adam how he could know that, and he pointed out the timing, and Omnes comments to me seem to be pointing out the same thing about Vietnam. The protests amped up not right away because Americans were so heartbroken over the loss of Vietnamese lives, but later when the draft meant that THEIR lives might also be lost. And so…that seems to be the same situation here. I am sure some (a small number) of russians truly do not support the invasion, but it is not out of left field to say that, based on their own rhetoric, plenty of them do, or at best don’t care. But now that they might get pulled into it, suddenly their morals showed up at the party.

    I’m just unclear as to the underlying point, from the tweet embedded above and some of the comments, which seem to be contradicting themselves. Do you believe that every russian out there protesting is doing it because of their deep love for the Ukrainian people and their commitment to Ukraine’s freedom and sovereignty? I may be a “keyboard warrior” to borrow someone’s glib phrase, but I haven’t seen anything else up till now that offers supporting evidence for that.

  56. 56.

    Mike in NC

    On Wednesday USA Today presented a poll where Republicans in Florida are quickly favoring Ron DeSatan over The Donald: currently 48% to 41%. Rooting for injuries.

  62. 62.

    WaterGirl

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛:

    Let me see if I can explain.

    I think the point is that Vietnam protesters were admired for standing up for what they believed in, and what they were doing was mostly considered honorable and they were mostly admired.  No one was complaining about why they were doing it.

    While Russian protesters are being judged in some cases, and being found unworthy.  I wouldn’t be rushing out to protest in a country where I could be brutally imprisoned for 7 years.

    But any male from 17 to 65 can be sent to the front with 2 weeks of basic training?  That could most certainly change the equation for who is willing to take on the risk of protesting.

    Ukrainians rose to the occasion of the invasion with a bravery and strength of spirit that is frankly shocking, even at what was obviously great personal risk, and they earned the respect of the world.

    That is in stark contrast to the Russian response, as Gin & Tonic says.

    But for people like me to be sitting in judgment, when we have no idea of what it’s like to live under a brutal regime, and be fed propaganda every single day, I think it’s probably best if we shut the fuck up about the Russian response.

    It’s not helping in a situation where we have people on the blog with strong connections to both countries.

  66. 66.

    Burnspbesq

    @LAO:

    Do you suppose she doesn’t fully appreciate the ramifications of her action? Was she too hung over to concentrate on the day mootness was discussed in Civ Pro?

  68. 68.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: @Burnspbesq:

    Are there seriously “take-backs” in judicial rulings that have already been made, and have been made public?

    Can she just wipe out what she wants and pretend it wasn’t there?

    Doesn’t the ruling from the 11th Circuit sit there forever, making a mockery of her pretending she never made the ruling in the first place?

  69. 69.

    Paul in KY

    @James E Powell: The press had the easiest job ‘covering’ Cheetolini. Every day was some crazy shit that they could just pass on to the readers & then go have drinks on the expense account.

    Pres. Biden makes em ‘work’ to have to do research & all that icky stuff to come up with a story.

  70. 70.

    LAO

    @Burnspbesq: Maybe? I really don’t know what to think except some really unqualified people now sit on the federal bench with lifetime appointments.

    ps. I hope you saw my mea culpa yesterday. I still can’t believe I got suckered by the clown show again.

  71. 71.

    BenCisco 🇺🇸🎖️🖥️♦️

    @James E Powell:

    I will never understand why he is not more popular with the people. And the press – the people who had a front row seat to the shit show that was Trump – seem to dislike him too.

    I don’t mean ragingly popular, just not hated.

    I will attempt to answer these queries. Please bear in mind I’ve been watching this since the Watergate hearings….

    Most of our citizenry are underinformed at best, misinformed at the median, and criminally malinformed at worst. The press, which has almost always served the interests of the top .001% of the food chain and only been of use to the rest of us by accident and when they were left with no other choice, is as foul now as in the days of the “yellow sheets.”

    As always, your mileage may vary.

  72. 72.

    JoyceH

    Does anyone else sense a sort of Shift in the global dynamic? For years we’ve been told, and could see, that authoritarianism is on the rise, and I dunno – it seems like recently, it’s starting to crash everywhere all at once.

  73. 73.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @James E Powell:

    I don’t mean ragingly popular, just not hated.

    Is Biden hated? I know maybe 30% hate him, but they just hate. I think most people are just worn out by everything from trump to Covid to inflation, and in our country, Presidents eat shit when people are feeling malaise

    ETA: Jon Favreau’s Wilderness podcast, where he mostly interviews and does focus groups with normie voters, are a good reminder to people like us, who wallow in politics, are very rare birds

  74. 74.

    Mike E

    @Gin & Tonic: nothing illustrates the zero sum game of politics more than autocracy, so even though the hypocrisy of the Russian public is on full display, I still welcome their resistance to Putin with glee.

  75. 75.

    trollhattan

    @zhena gogolia:

    Just hope nobody thinks we instituted the draft during Vietnam. We fiddled with the rules, yes (e.g., eliminating the marriage deferment in 1965) but we had peacetime conscription continuously since the Selective Service Act of 1948 until 1973.

    We embraced our Vietnam protesters, including that day in Ohio, in 1970 (a majority of Americans thought those kids got what they deserved).

  76. 76.

    LAO

    @WaterGirl: Cannon’s last order is unusual and procedurally questionable. And while the 11th Circuit’s decision appears to have been mooted, it will live on forever (just it doesn’t have any effect).

  77. 77.

    TEL

    @WaterGirl: Excellent summation. Ukrainians can stand in judgement of the Russian people – they’ve certainly earned it. I’m not sure we Americans can, given our history.

  80. 80.

    Bupalos

    @Gin & Tonic: Ukrainians can look to THEMSELVES for that, if you’re familiar with a little ‘ol democratic miracle called the Maidan. Which is the most impressive thing to happen in the West in the last 50 years. And absolutely no one is doing what you’ve implied, as if we’re comparing “the bravery and nobility of The Russians” to “the bravery and nobility of The Ukrainians” and suggesting they are equivalent or comparable at all.

    The whole point in fact is that these comparisons are absolute claptrap. This lumping of everyone into neat lines that you draw “Russian” and “Ukrainian” around and assign universal characteristics is claptrap. And when you look at a brave-if-imperfect protestor, likely with little social network or support, with little hope of success, in the heart of a place that just found its way back to its generational homeland of totalitarianism, and your response is “fuck them, not good or pure enough!”… Well, that response may be as I say understandable…but….

  81. 81.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @WaterGirl: Okay, I can see all that. Thank you.

    And sure, I also would probably be hesitant to protest in a country where doing so could get me iced. But I guess, to me…they were afraid to do so when the harm was directed outwardly. Now that it is aimed at them, they’ve found the courage. That is opportunistic and self-centered, just on an objective level. And I think some of the criticism is more aimed at people who are lauding them, as though the protestors are out there yelling “Slava Ukraini!”

  83. 83.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @Bupalos:

    if you’re familiar with a little ‘ol democratic miracle called the Maidan

    I get that you are being sarcastic here, but recall as you were told yesterday that G&T is Ukrainian. This is unnecessary snark.

    (I also realize that “unnecessary snark” is an apt descriptor of a good portion of everything on Balloon Juice.)

  84. 84.

    Bupalos

    No one was complaining about why they were doing it.

    Actually if you’re talking historically this is exactly what was happening from the center and right. Tons of “you’re scared, you’re a commie, you don’t love America.” No one was like “well you just have too much humanity.” It’s why I’m a little worked up, this is a version of a kind of blind attack that makes no sense within the values that Ukraine is actually fighting for.

    If you mean no one nowadays on the left cites this as detracting from the morality of the peace movement, then that seems right.

  85. 85.

    WaterGirl

    @JoyceH: I see a crack for sure, which could get wider, so that gives me hope.  But if a couple of things go the wrong way, in particular our elections in November, that gap could close right up.

    I think thesis a very pivotal time that may well determine the course of the world going forward.

  86. 86.

    Alison Rose 💙🌻💛

    @zhena gogolia: It’s not a massive leap of logic to say that at least some of them are doing it to save their own hides. I don’t think we have to be psychics and determine exactly which protestors are doing it for which reasons to say that some are against the war and others are against their own death.

  87. 87.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛: Your motive must be 100% pure and altruistic or it doesn’t count?  No?  Is 85% enough?  75%?  Where is the line and how the ever living fuck can we tell who is pure enough once we draw that line.

  88. 88.

    Bupalos

    @zhena gogolia: I’ll at least say that in many cases I’ve seen it would be insane to say they’re going and getting dragged off by police because they’re just trying to stay safe, like they’ve calculated the odds and this is the best one for them. It’s takes a kind of willful blindness to maintain that.

  90. 90.

    Bupalos

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛: While I’d say running away is a much much better version of “saving their own hides” than protesting, sure, the whole point on our side is that it’s complicated and you can’t do this mindreading and lumping everyone together. It’s the entire point.

  91. 91.

    eversor

    Been said before but holy fucky the big Z is the man for the hour for his nation.  It’s also sort of comedic, in the dark way.  Ukraine was ever in Russias shadow, now they are on the world stage as a new nation with a fucking hero.  Own goals and all.

    Zelensky is also going to going to go down in history and will have a strong mandate.  While there are reports of team killing among Russian security protects now.

  92. 92.

    Jay

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛:

    For the first 7 months, there were anti-war protests, with OMON thugs bashing heads. Then the RU passed a law where saying “war” or protesting the war, got you arrested, jailed for up to 7 years which wound up with the anti-war protestors either staying home, using “steath” protest methods like pop ups or postering, or in jail.

    Russian jails are not nice places.

  93. 93.

    Lapassionara

    @Omnes Omnibus: I wondered if she did it to start the clock running on the time for an appeal again. The DOJ appealed the order with the stay, but if there is another order without the stay, maybe (by her reasoning) the DOJ needs to file another notice of appeal.

  94. 94.

    geg6

    @trollhattan:

    Yeah, I’m a little weirded out by anyone claiming that the Vietnam protesters were embraced.  I was alive and quite aware at the time and that is not at all what I remember.  Unless they mean they were embraced by the handcuffs that the cops were only too happy to slap on them too tightly.  As they beat their heads in.  In fact, kinda just like they are doing in Russia.

    Fascists gonna fascist, no matter what country or time period.

  96. 96.

    Ken

    @LAO: I think Cannon’s original ruling and subsequent edit illustrate the legal principle of facere ex toto panno, or perhaps iactus faeces ad murus.

  97. 97.

    zhena gogolia

    @Bupalos:

    If you mean no one nowadays on the left cites this as detracting from the morality of the peace movement, then that seems right.

    That’s what I mean by it.

  99. 99.

    Scout211

    @LAO: It’s almost as if she is acting like her work was criticized by her supervisors so she decided to correct her mistakes. Poof! All her bad work product is now corrected.

    IANAL, but this even seems odd to me.

  100. 100.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Alison Rose 💙🌻💛: Have you read about any of the resistance groups in Nazi Germany?  The White Rose, the July 20 plotters, or the Red Orchestra?  They all formed for different reasons and at different times.  Some joined early because they always opposed the Nazis.  Some were believers who were appalled and became fed up.  Others had other motivations. Does it matter all that much?

  101. 101.

    WaterGirl

    @Bupalos:  With this comment…

    …mostly considered honorable and they were mostly admired.  No one was complaining about why they were doing it.

    …my “mostly” and “no one” was shorthand, dismissing the crap from the people on the right because we aren’t talking about people on the right as we discuss this.

    For me, with your comments and the comments of some other people, it feels like you are discussing this as if it were a purely intellectual exercise, and you are ignoring that zhena is all but screaming out in pain because a group of people that she would normally consider allies are dismissing an entire people and pretending we can see into the hearts of people we have never met, in a country that we probably do not understand.  I think it’s our assumptions that are hurtful.

    We aren’t all terrible people in the US, despite what the Rs are doing.  We can’t control what the Rs are doing, we can only vote them out.

    In Russia, I find it hard to believe that the people can vote Putin out.

    I am totally on side Ukraine in this brutal, genocidal war.  I admire and respect the people of Ukraine very much

    Is it disappointing that many of the people of Russia haven’t stood up against the war more than they have been?  Yes.  Are they okay with the war and the genocide?  Do they care, but they feel they can’t do anything about it, so they just plod along day to day?  Do they HATE what’s happening but are afraid to risk their lives?  Or risk the the lives of their spouses or their parents or their children?

    Zhena’s point seems to be that we just don’t know, we can’t know.  So she is asking that those of us – who aren’t personally connected in the way that Gin & Tonic and others are – to stop tarring all of the Russian people with our big brush.

    Speaking just for myself as a commenter here, that doesn’t seem like too much to ask.

  103. 103.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No, it does not.  Much as I am happy whenever a Trumper decides enough is enough, I’m happy whenever some Russian decides they’ve had enough.  For whatever reason.  I welcome anyone to the side of the light, even if I don’t think they are truly good and that we’ll end up on opposite sides later on.

    But those who are beating up G&T for not opening his arms to the Russians who have finally risen up, cut the guy a break.  He’s entitled to despise all Russians right about now and I don’t blame him for his feelings one little bit.

  105. 105.

    ian

    From CNN

    GOP congressional candidate said US suffered from women’s suffrage and praised organization trying to repeal 19th Amendment

    but don’t worry guys, it was all just a joke to own the libs.

    Anne Marie Schieber, a spokesperson for Gibbs’ campaign told CNN

    “John made the site to provoke the left on campus and to draw attention to the hypocrisy of some modern-day feminists. It was nothing more than a college kid being over the top,”

  108. 108.

    zhena gogolia

    @geg6: Who is beating up G&T? My comment was directed at Adam (and I wasn’t “beating up” anybody, not a great metaphor right now). Only bupalos criticized G&T, before he knew he had a personal connection to Ukraine.

  109. 109.

    Redshift

    I haven’t watched Zelenskyy’s speech, but I read it in Adam’s post last night. I though it was an excellent way of stating “if you want ‘never again’ to actually come to mean ‘never again’, this is what we collectively need to do.”

  110. 110.

    Scout211

    PSA:  Check your email account security.

    My sister had her yahoo account hacked yesterday in a sophisticated scam. Someone got her password and got into her account, changing passwords and settings and forwards.  All of her contacts got a vague email from her asking for help. At least two of her contacts actually sent her $200 Amazon gift cards, that actually went to a person in Nigeria.

    She still had her cell phone as a rescue backup for her email account but so many things were changed in her account settings that she had to have an IT person help her sort it out. Even then, she had to change her password multiple times before it was really reset.

    It’s been a nightmare.

  114. 114.

    gvg

    @WaterGirl: Actually NO. The Vietnam protestors were hated by about half the country. Mostly the older half. Often their parents. Sometimes their older brothers who had already gone. Archie Bunkers. My vet uncle who did get called a baby killer by a bank teller (one incident not a whole bunch everywhere like the myths) The cops were urged to beat the protestors and so on by the respectable older powerful people that we would call conservatives now but then I think they would have been called just local civic leaders or such.

    And you know, I think you hang out with liberals now and I don’t think conservatives even today think those protestors were right. They may not talk about that war much anymore, but they think all the more recent war protestors are traitors. They hated Kerry. They hate all US war protestors I think forever.In theory there might be one they might not support someday but I haven’t seen it yet.

  115. 115.

    geg6

    @zhena gogolia:

    Oh for Christ’s sake.  I wasn’t talking about you.  I was talking about Bupalos, who still hasn’t gotten off his high horse, albeit he’s moderated it a bit since the pushback last evening.

    I’ll be careful and directly address you if I want to talk about you from now on, okay?  That said, the Russians in the streets are mostly there because their asses are on the line.  Much like many of the Vietnam protestors.  And both are being treated similarly by the fascists in charge.  How about we criticize them (the fascists in charge) instead of each other?  Jesus.

  116. 116.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: No one is beating up on G&T.  As a matter of fact, a number of people have said that they are exempting people in his situation from their criticisms.  They are too close to the action on the other side for most of us who are spectators to this war to judge.

  117. 117.

    Citizen Alan

    @Omnes Omnibus: It must be 100% if you expect to get the vote of Rose Twitter and their ilk. I’ve often wished I could peer into the alternate reality where St. Bernie won in 2016 and somehow miraculously became President just so I could witness the exact moment when all the Lefties turned on him for some trivial deviation from orthodoxy. Probably before the election when he picked someone to the right of Nina Turner to be his running mate and thus revealed himself to be corporatist scum.

  118. 118.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @ian: I think that was one of the races where some Dem orgs helped promote the trumpier candidate in an R primary, giving the white hot fantods to certain members of the good church of Broder

    It didn’t work in Colorado race, and some of them were saying “Ah ha! now you’ve put Michael Bennet in jeopardy in a purple state against a normal Republican!” I saw a poll this morning that has Bennet up by 10

  120. 120.

    zhena gogolia

    @geg6:

    And both are being treated similarly by the fascists in charge. How about we criticize them (the fascists in charge) instead of each other?

    That sounds reasonable. The criticism I see is of the protestors, which seems a little counterproductive.

  121. 121.

    Geminid

    @zhena gogolia: Setting aside moral judgements, I see objective differences in the situation of the Russian and Iranian peoples. It’s true that both counrtries are run by entrenched regimes that comtrol elections and monopolize power. But Russia has a stagnant economy and a declining birthrate, and apathy is ingrained.

    Not so with Iran. I read that 45% of Iran’s population is under age 35, and video I’ve seen of the protests reflects this. Iran has progressed a lot economically during the generations that Russia stagnated, and the young people see how the regime is still holding their country back from what they know it can be.

    Iran’s theocatic dictatorship is also uniquely intrusive and repressive. The appalling death of Mahsa Amini triggered the anger that has been building for years. Now the protesters believe they can topple the regiime and bring Iran’s political system into the 21st century. The regime can only survive by killing hundreds of demonstrators and I wonder if the  security forces are willing. They were in 2019.

  122. 122.

    Citizen Alan

    @geg6: Personally, I think America’s long slide into fascism started in 1968, when the Repukes demagogued the Anti-War left pretty much the same way the current Repukes demagogue BLM and Antifa. LBJ was a fucking idiot to have kept us in Vietnam, but he was also hemmed in by the radicalism of the Left and the outright treason of the Right (Nixon and Anna Chennault intentionally sinking the 1968 Peace Accords). I still think if he’d toughed it out, he’d have won in 1968, gotten us out of Vietnam earlier, and given us a liberal SCOTUS that might have lasted to the present day.  YMMV.

  126. 126.

    PAM Dirac

    @LAO:

     

    no appeal because there is nothing to appeal. It’s very strange.

    This situation is obviously hard for experienced lawyers to figure out, so us non-lawyers re really struggling. Let me see if the knowledgeable ones can fix any misunderstandings I have.

    At this moment, the ruling in place is the original Cannon ruling minus the classified documents and the prohibition of the DOJ to use them in investigations. The Special Master proceeding will continue pretty much as Dearie laid out yesterday. It is unlikely that the DOJ will have problems with that as Dearie seems to be on the same wavelength as DOJ, but also because the non-classified documents are not particularly important or contentious. The DOJ could still appeal the whole Special Master thing, but may not really need to. If the orange fart cloud wants access to the classified stuff, he will have to file his own appeal to the 11th, and then presumably after getting a similar ruling, appeal to the SC.  Very unlikely to get a stay, so the Special Master sends in his report reasonably quickly. Then what? I know the experts have said Cannon wrote a large chunk of what drumpf should ask for, but what will her final ruling look like? A list of documents that are subject to privilege? Some other constraint on DOJ?

  127. 127.

    Ksmiami

    @WaterGirl: maybe but at some point just shrugging your shoulders and going along to get along is a pretty lame way to live- I think of the Civil Rights movement in the USA as a better comparison because the actors knew they would face brutality and resistance and showed up anyway and still do the work today. I have relatives in a country that would be next and my MIL had her childhood home taken by the Russians so I want them defeated and decimated and under the administrative responsibility of the UN. The country is a thug terrorist nation that is a danger to the world.

  128. 128.

    MattF

    It appears that the Russian ‘mobilization’ is coming to a boil, with significant numbers of Russian civilians being pulled off the streets and into ‘recruitment’ centers. Maybe it’s just rumors… but maybe Putin was, um, lying about the ‘partial’ in ‘partial mobilization’.

  130. 130.

    Jay

    There are some we can judge,

    eg. Orc Chickenhawk Milblogger,

    Now frantically trying to find a way out of Russia to avoid the draft,

    Receipts,

     

    Good story pic.twitter.com/mvL6pWciCv— Arnaud Castaignet (@arnocast) September 22, 2022

    For those who don’t have Twitter, when it asks you to log in or join, hit the join button, then click the X at the top of the form,

    when the tweet loads, click the image to load the screenshots, then use the left and right arrows to get the contrasting posts, (Telegram).

  132. 132.

    Citizen Alan

    @PAM Dirac: I still think that before all’s said and done, the Dingbat is going to get brought up on Judicial Misconduct charges. SCOTUS may be lawless when it comes to impropriety and recusal issues, but not the lower courts. I’m still shocked she didn’t take the easy out and recuse herself from any Trump related matters. Short of a matter involving a family member or a former client, I can’t imagine a conflict bigger than “the guy who appointed me to the federal bench in a district where I would likely hear any matters brought against him personally.”

  133. 133.

    gvg

    Yesterday we were unfavorably comparing the seemingly belated Russian protest compared to the Iranian protests where the Iranians were being shot at in mass fire (reported but not sure of it). Some of us were saying they did it out of self interest…well the Ukrainians are fighting out of self interest too. Self interest isn’t always bad. The thing is no one person can actually change Russia or Ukraine or Iran. It takes big masses of people acting together to make big changes. One person is just….a dead body. Maybe a martyr, but probably unmarked or not important. you have to act together. People know that, they look around and try to figure out if…other people are going to jump too. Sometimes it’s a conspiracy. That is hard, involve planning, risk and trust. Russia would be hard, but it has been done. Probably some are trying it right now. Other times…Pressure builds up and a flash mob riots…then what? are there people ready to act? What are they like? Bad too? Smart? Crooked? How many people are going to come out can depend.

    Russia has had a peoples revolution though. I don’t remember it as going well. Maybe that makes it harder to do. they haven’t been free to discuss ideas and figure anything out so if they did over throw Putin, I think the next stage might sound like Chaos talking.

  134. 134.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ksmiami: And when some of them stop shrugging their shoulders and protest, how do we respond?  With a “fuck ‘em” or something else?

  135. 135.

    eversor

    @Geminid:

    Iranians are Persians, it’s good to keep that in mind.  They view likes of the Saudis as child raping camel fuckers and are very clear about this.

    One of the reasons the Saudis and Israelis regard them with utter terror is they have a lot more in common with us than is let on.  A true Persian renwall would crush both of those “shit hole” states.  The Persians have long claimed they are a natural ally of The West given our past history and do not view themselves as part of that local cluster fuck they are around.  As you stated they are young as well by population and their youth are not Islamists.

  136. 136.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I read the thread last night.  He was getting beaten up by a particular poster, Bupalos, as if he was some sort of naive anti-Soviet.

    The civility and group think police around here are getting very irritating.  No, we don’t all have to get along on every topic and sometimes feelings get hurt.  A number of people around here should try being adults and getting over it.  I walked away from the blog for a few days because it seemed that some Juicers had such hurt feelings over my shit talking the queen.  I regret taking that break and not standing up for myself and what I believe is right and won’t do it again.  And if John Cole has a problem with me, he can talk to me about it.  He has my phone number and knows where I live.  Or he can take the ban hammer to me.  Perhaps the civility police should send him a strongly worded email in all caps telling him to do so.

  137. 137.

    zhena gogolia

    @gvg:

    Russia has had a peoples revolution though. I don’t remember it as going well. Maybe that makes it harder to do.

    Another salient point.

  138. 138.

    Geminid

    @ian: I think Meijar was going down no matter what. Fellow Impeacher Tom Rice lost his primary by a lot with no Democratic ads in the mix. The radical Republican base dominates their primaries now.  Kemp and Raffensperger survived Trumpist challengers in Georgia but that was pretty exceptional.

  141. 141.

    Paul in KY

    @Citizen Alan: He should have just declared victory (back in 66 or so) and gone home.  Now soon after that, Vietnam would have been reunited by the NVA, but that was always going to happen anyway.

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: Okay, I will speak plainly.  I am disgusted by people who dehumanize others.  It’s really fucking easy too slide from that into eliminationist rhetoric and I have seen people here do it.  I was appalled by LGF back in its old days and I would hate to see this place head in that direction.  If you have a problem with me saying that, then fucking pie me.  Any questions?

  144. 144.

    Scout211

    And the saga continues. But Judge Dearie means business. Link
    CNN — 

    The special master overseeing the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation has ordered former President Donald Trump’s lawyers to back up out-of-court assertions that the FBI may have planted evidence at the property during their search last month.

    Judge Raymond Dearie, the court-appointed special master, said in a filing Thursday that Trump’s team needs to submit a sworn declaration saying if they believe the Justice Department included any items on their “inventory” of materials taken from Mar-a-Lago that were not actually seized during the search.

    The declaration must include “a list of any specific items set forth in the Detailed Property Inventory that Plaintiff asserts were not seized from the Premises on August 8, 2022,” Dearie wrote in the order.

  146. 146.

    cain

    @WaterGirl: Why are we even judging at all? This country elected that orange cheeto like he was a serious player. Making moral judgements on the people of other countries when we have shown all the idiotic people we have put into power…  We should STFU about Russians and when they are protesting – protesting in their self interest is perfectly fine.

  149. 149.

    trollhattan

    @Paul in KY: Yeah, or at least once he decided not to run again–take the hit and get us the hell outta there.

    See, also, Afghanistan 2022–a decade+ overdue.

  152. 152.

    Geminid

    @eversor: I’m not sure the Israelis regard the Iranian people with terror.  It’s the regime they think is a threat. And one of the grievances the protestors have expressed is their frustration at the resources the regime has expended on foreign adventures in Syria and Lebanon intended to confront Israel. There is also resentment towards the Revolutionary Guard Corp’s takeover of large chunks of the economy. At least some Iranians see Israel not as an enemy but a bogeyman the regime has used to distract from its own rotten governance.

  155. 155.

    rikyrah

    @James E Powell:

     

    . And the press – the people who had a front row seat to the shit show that was Trump – seem to dislike him too.

     

    Both are related.

    The MSM resents the competence of President Biden and his Administration. He has been bad for business. And, because of that, they have deliberately downplayed his accomplishments. If you don’t have a MSM that tells you what Biden is doing right, along with the desperate BOTH SIDES, so that they can pretend that the GOP isn’t a full-blown White Supremacist cult….

    They can do ‘ horserace’.

     

    They WANT the GOP to win in November, because that chaos and gridlock, is good for business, both macro and micro.

     

    Show me one reporter who will be able to write a book the way all those Dolt45 Stenographers did. They can’t, and they resent that money stream for them being cut off.

  158. 158.

    Paul in KY

    @rikyrah: Also what I said about it just being easier to cover the Shitgibbon, as you just had to convey the outrageous conduct of the day & then head off to the bar.  You have a good point about certainly no easy ‘Tell All’ books to be written about Pres. Biden’s administration.

  163. 163.

    Paul in KY

    @Omnes Omnibus: Eledmar still exists! It was removed, along with Valinor, at the end of the 2nd Age when Eru refashioned the world & put the smack down on Numenor.  In another plane it still sparkles…

  165. 165.

    geg6

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I don’t pie anyone.  For any reason.  I read all comments if I’m active on a post thread, regardless of how disgusting, stupid or ridiculously naive.  If I did, I’d have about half the commentariat serving me delicious pastries all day.

    The idea that saying a queen isn’t worth five seconds of your time or saying Russians may be cowards isn’t exactly dehumanizing anyone.  Vehemently disagreement isn’t dehumanizing.  But demanding a vanilla comment section where everyone must agree and no one should ever call someone out is, IMHO.  Humans disagree.  Liberals disagree.  Sometimes very strongly.  That is humanizing.

  169. 169.

    Ken

    @PAM Dirac: because the non-classified documents are not particularly important or contentious

    Not to any sane person, perhaps, but we’re talking about Trump.

    And even the non-classified documents may be stolen government property.  I would love it if Dearie stuck some schooling into his report, maybe something like:

    Document 37 is a memo from the Attorney General to the President.

    • Plaintiff claims this is his property; it is not, it is government property.
    • Plaintiff claims this is shielded by executive privilege; he is no longer the executive so has no such privilege, and the current executive has not asserted it.
    • Plaintiff claims the document is covered by attorney-client privilege; this shows plaintiff is absolutely uninformed about the role of the President and cabinet, as the Attorney General is not the President’s personal attorney.
  170. 170.

    Burnspbesq

    @PAM Dirac:

    I think you’ve pretty much got it. At some point, Dearie will probably ask Trump’s lawyers to submit a privilege log, to which DOJ will have an opportunity to respond. Then he’ll rule. The outcome will probably be no different than if DOJ’s “taint team” process had been allowed to play out.

  171. 171.

    Ksmiami

    @Omnes Omnibus: it’s their country; up to them but at the current moment, I regard Russia in it’s entirety as a threat to the globe and if left to it’s current imperial path, the nation needs to be crushed.

  173. 173.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @geg6: Calling Moscow to be wiped out?  Referring to Russians collectively as orcs?  I am sure that’s not dehumanizing.  FFS.

    As far as funeral stuff goes, calling everyone who does not both share your opinion and express it the same way you do still  a monarchist seems like shitty and dishonest arguing.

    Edited for clarity

  179. 179.

    Ksmiami

    @zhena gogolia: there’s only 3 real choices w Russia now. Either the people within stop it, or without- as in Ukraine and the west defeat Russia and help establish a new govt, or it becomes another hobbit kingdom aka North Korea but w many more nukes.

  181. 181.

    Burnspbesq

    @Burnspbesq:

    ETA: the end result will still suck, because even if all of Dearie’s rulings on privilege are correct, Trump has effectively gotten to file a pre-indictment Rule 41(g) motion and not had to prove that there was something wrong with the search. No other target has ever gotten to do that, AFAIK. I’m sure LAO will correct me if I’m wrong.

  186. 186.

    Ksmiami

    @geg6: to be honest, I’m kind of over the not all Russians defense when the nation has pretty much tried to wipe out Ukrainian identity, committed heinous war crimes akin to the 13th century, threatened global famine and keeps bringing up tactical nukes as a legitimate strategy- Sure, probably many Russians don’t want this, but neither did a lot of Germans in the 40s. Doesn’t matter- you’ll still be painted as an enemy of humanity.

  188. 188.

    livewyre

    @Ksmiami: The problem comes with setting up “no good Russians” as the dichotomous alternative. Then you’re in charge of deciding who counts as one, so that they can be “dealt with” appropriately.

    Borders? Lineage? Language? Do you set up a committee with final authority on who’s in and who’s… out? These things have a bit of complication and, let’s just say, “historical context” that the movie-script approach to foreign policy might not adequately cover.

  189. 189.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ksmiami: I will just say that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what people have been arguing.  One can be against the invasion, support the Ukrainians wholeheartedly, be opposed to genocide, support war crimes prosecutions and reparations, and more without  deciding that the Russian people are bad as a people.

  190. 190.

    Bupalos

    @WaterGirl: If you meant to respond to me, you’ve mistaken something. Zhena and Omnes and I are trying to bang home the point that this is complicated, that human motivations are always complicated, that you can’t do this simplification and lumping together thing, and “let me tell you how the protesting Russians are and why they suck and aren’t real allies” thing.  Which started for me when G&T expressed that this dumb simplified “they” were only in it for themselves, and was somewhere between unconcerned and enthused that they be impressed into the army and basically shot out of a cannon.

    I’ll say it again and again, I find such sentiments potentially understandable, and completely wrong and counterproductive.

  191. 191.

    WaterGirl

    @Bupalos: I did mean to respond to you – this part, the bolded part in particular.

    It feels like you are discussing this as if it were a purely intellectual exercise, and you are ignoring that zhena is all but screaming out in pain because a group of people that she would normally consider allies are dismissing an entire people and pretending we can see into the hearts of people we have never met, in a country that we probably do not understand.

    But then my comment morphed into trying to explain where I thought zhena was coming from, so you’re right, none of the rest of it was really directed at you!

  192. 192.

    Bupalos

    @Omnes Omnibus:No one is beating up on G&T.

    I started the whole thing with a statement reacting to  his comment apparently supporting or shrugging at the Russian police beating and impressing protestors into Putin’s criminal army, because they weren’t sufficiently pure of heart.

    I said it was embarrassing and he should be embarrassed. I was informed he had understandable reasons for such a visceral reaction and apologized and limited myself since then to saying such a reaction may be understandable but is nonetheless wrong and counterproductive.

  193. 193.

    Bupalos

    @WaterGirl: I guess I don’t know what “an intellectual exercise” would be here. I have extended family in Ukraine and Poland and connections in Russia and what I’m mostly arguing for is people to recognize that their definitions of people by these labels like “Ukrainian” or  “Russian protestor” and then talking about that group like a monolith with the kind of simple motivations we use for sports teams is (and here we see me not being intellectual) infuriating.

  194. 194.

    cain

    @geg6:

     

    I don’t pie anyone. For any reason. I read all comments if I’m active on a post thread, regardless of how disgusting, stupid or ridiculously naive. If I did, I’d have about half the commentariat serving me delicious pastries all day.

    I don’t pie anyone either – I just scroll past. Sometimes those folks have interesting things to say.. well maybe not ‘myiq2xu’ aka ‘goat boy’

  195. 195.

    Ksmiami

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m not saying all Russians are bad- it’s a cowed and insular society BUT if they are unable to become a civilized world nation, don’t be surprised when threatened nations of the world strike back and do what they need to defang that sick country.

  196. 196.

    eversor

    @Ksmiami:

    Russia is a giant prison where two cities exist of the “prince” and everyone else sucks a dick.  They don’t know what is going on, well most don’t.  It’s a federation, where a few million in two cities sort of know what’s going on but are with the program because they reap the rewards, and then a ton of federated states who just eat shit and suck.

    It’s a shit show, and nobody has a solution.

  197. 197.

    Citizen Alan

    @raven: I respect that viewpoint. But if you could go back in time and arrange for LBJ to beat Nixon in 1968, wouldn’t you have done it in a heartbeat?  I mean, the absolute worst Dem is always better than even an average Republican, let alone Tricky Dick.

  199. 199.

    WaterGirl

    @Bupalos: What I was trying to say, but obviously didn’t do it well since this is my third clarification…

    Is that you seemed to be talking history and details and seemed to be missing that zhena seemed to be trying to have a conversation on a whole different level.

    I do want to acknowledge that I know you are on the side of don’t lump everyone together and label them.

  202. 202.

    Geminid

    @Citizen Alan: Hubert Humphrey very nearly beat Nixon in 1968. After starting out broke following a bitter and contentious convention, Humphrey was closing fast at the end. In The Making of a President: 1968, author Theodore White wrote that he thought Humprey might well have won had the election been held three days later than it was.

    Humphrey almost pulled off what Harry Truman managed to do 20 years before, when he had Thurmond and Wallace to contend with besides Dewey. The Roosevelt coalition came through one more time for Truman, but could not quite get Humphrey over the hump.

    I think that Johnson would have beaten Nixon. I suspect he did not run because he thought he would not survive much longer in that office. Johnson had a major heart attack about 12 years before, and I think he could see another coming.

  203. 203.

    Jinchi

    @Ken: I don’t think it’s fair of Judge Dearie to ask TFG’s lawyers to choose between getting paid and perjuring themselves.

    I think it’s funny if they think they’re getting paid.

  205. 205.

    J R in WV

    @James E Powell: ​
     

    And the press – the people who had a front row seat to the shit show that was Trump – seem to dislike him too.

    These folks are paid and required to dislike anyone their bosses tell them to dislike.

    This extends to making those their bosses tell them to dislike the subject of false accusations, as if those accusations were already proven in a court of law, even if there isn’t a shred of evidence showing the accusations are true, in other words, as false as can be.

  206. 206.

    J R in WV

    @trollhattan:

    We embraced our Vietnam protesters, including that day in Ohio, in 1970 (a majority of Americans thought those kids got what they deserved).

    I was in USN boot camp on that day in 1970, avoiding the draft into the Marines/Army in the swamps of SE Asia.

    Most of my fellow boots were enraged that people actually got shot down, and wanted to go shoot some more revolutionary anti-war commie students down. I was horrified, and kept my mouth shut, tightly! Volunteers to go hunt down actual college students who needed killing!!!

    Later on while serving as a “bosun’s mate” on the deck unit of my ship, I was not so quiet, and suffered an attempted murder when a 30 or 40 pound tool was dripped on my head while I worked over the side working to grind rust off the side of the ship’s hull. Shattered my hard hat, knocked me unconscious and but for grasping the net as I bounced from the hull to the net I would have fallen into the sea.

    I know it was deliberate because it happened during the few seconds when my safety lines were unconnected to the cargo net we were working on. I disconnected my safety line to move over to work on a new section, and woke up tangled in the net just above the waterline.

    At the time I was way too concussed to realize it had been deliberate, but everyone knew I was anti-war, and many red-neck M-Fers hated me on that account. There are a shit-ton of dangerous work situations on a Navy ship, and several of those were used against me.

    That’s life. I survive yet today.

  207. 207.

    J R in WV

    @eversor: ​
     

    Iranians are Persians, it’s good to keep that in mind.

    When I spent a week in Manhattan NYC a few years ago, we would ask immigrants we did business with where they were from. So many great people told us they were “Persian” rather than saying Iranian…

    We would laugh together later on. We were all anti-war back in the 1960s-70s, and pro people’s movements, including in Iran. Persia, actually, as that’s what they used for their national origin….

  208. 208.

    J R in WV

    @Ksmiami:

    to be honest, I’m kind of over the not all Russians defense when the nation Putin has pretty much tried to wipe out Ukrainian identity, committed heinous war crimes akin to the 13th century, threatened global famine and keeps bringing up tactical nukes as a legitimate strategy- Sure, probably many Russians don’t want this, but neither did a lot of Germans in the 40s. Doesn’t matter- you’ll Putin will still be painted as an enemy of humanity.

    PUTIN, not Russia. Fixed this for you… hope you don’t hate it too much.

  210. 210.

    Paul in KY

    @Geminid: Johnson was also going to be in a primary fight with RFK and he hated RFK and was scared he might lose to him. That was also a calc in his not running again.

  212. 212.

    Paul in KY

    @J R in WV: I had an Iranian exchange student as a roommate for a semester back in 1980.  He told everyone he was ‘Armenian’.  Was one hairy dude!

Comments are closed.