In September, our dog Pete had minor surgery and came home in a cone of shame. Badger immediately attacked him as if he’d never seen Pete before. I’m pretty sure I mentioned that here at the time. It was weird, but the vet said it was probably due to the cone and Pete smelling like a stranger from being at the vet’s all day. She said it would probably be temporary.
Unfortunately, it’s not. Weeks and weeks later, we’re still having to keep the dogs separated because they’ll viciously attack each other if they’re unrestrained in the same room. It’s an absolutely exhausting situation. Our house is relatively small, so it’s not like they can live in separate wings of the palace.
In retrospect, I can see there were signs of trouble before the cone of shame attack. In the months leading up to that, Pete started getting bigger than Badger (relatively — 24 lbs. vs. 20 lbs.), and maybe that upset an established pecking order. When Pete came home from the vet’s that day, he was not only in the cone but also woozy from medications, so maybe Badger saw it as an opportunity to assert control?
I don’t know. Neither dog was seriously injured in that fight or the few clashes that have occurred since, but it’s a horrible situation. Their fights are nothing like the normal tussling most dogs do (and they used to do!). They act and sound like they want to kill each other. They’ll spot one another across the room (while on leashes) and react as if the other dog is a demon from the bowels of hell that must be destroyed.
I’ve done a shit-ton of research online to try to figure out what to do, but nothing seems to work so far. I talked to one dog trainer who has great reviews online and says he can help, but it costs thousands of dollars, and I’d have to board my dogs with him for six weeks.
From my research and talking to people, it seems like there are a couple of schools of thought. One is that the owners are to blame for not asserting leadership over the dogs, so the owners must assert control so the dogs won’t feel the need to dominate one another and/or protect themselves because they’ll trust us to handle it.
Maybe that’s true, but we’ve had dogs for more than 25 years now, and this never happened before. (Another relevant fact: we never had two males before.) Some people say you have to let the dogs settle it themselves, and once they figure out who’s boss, they’ll chill out. Maybe, but that seems dangerous — their fights are scary!
I’ve got queries out to behavioral specialists recommended by our vet, but in the meantime, I’m wondering if any of y’all have ever dealt with a situation like this and have any advice? Thanks in advance. As you can imagine, I am desperate for a solution.
Baud
That’s sad. I’ve never dealt with it. I hope someone has a solution for you.
trollhattan
Shit, so sorry to hear.
Can only reflect on my spouse’s cousin who, after first owning a massive pitbull decided they needed to own a dog dinghy, and got a shiba inu. They got along at first but as sometimes happens, more attention was paid to the puppy and the pitbull became increasingly agitated and jealous, to the point they had to keep them separate in different parts of the house (with the shiba having more freedom). It got worse to the point they became afraid of the pitbull and began wondering if they needed to surrender him (no chance he’d ever be adopted, either).
Eventually they brought in a doggy psychologist who noted it was an owner problem and guided them into treating the dogs more fairly and equally, and spending constructive time with each and the pair, together. I unfortunately don’t recall the details but could perhaps ask, as they eventually sorted it out and Batman was spared. Part of the solution included taking them to the vineyard where they could hunt coyotes together, and I’m not sure that works the same with gators.
Here’s hoping you can sort it out–it’s not easy to keep house doggies separate but equal.
raven
My friends in Ft Meyers have two Aussie’s and one was great until they got another one. The are ok with each other but one is bonkers with people in their house. I was there last fall and she nipped me on the arm. A couple of months ago we visited them in their house in Brevard, NC. We were being very cautious, put their dogs outside before we went in with Artemis. I was sitting on the couch with her and the Aussie’s were throwing themselves at the door. Suddenly the door flew open and the bad one charged me. I managed to boot her on the shout but she bit me on the leg. As we say, they are good dogs but they are still dogs and they can be awfully crazy!
Butch
All I can do is empathize. The same thing happened with two of our kitties, that used to be best buddies. It’s weird because they both like to sleep under the bed, and they both must know the other is there – but if they actually come eye to eye there’s a cat fight. Nothing we have tried so far (separating them by a gate, Feliway) has worked.
cthulhu
The only thing I have heard when you have a dominance issue is the natural inclination to punish the instigator tends to prolong the problem. But if they are both instigating all the time not sure what the best course of action is.
Ohio Mom
This is not an area of expertise for me so this could be way off base but maybe a course of prozac (or something similar) to re-set the dogs’ nervous systems?
Also way off base but the idea that you and Dear Husband as the human owners need to assert your dominance fills my mind’s eye with some very weird TMI images.
Good luck, I hope you find what you need.
OzarkHillbilly
Heh, puts me in mind of me and my older brother growing up. He used to beat on me on a regular basis… Until the inevitable day came when I finally caught up to him. That was the last fight we ever had.
The only thing I can think of is to spray them down with a hose when ever they fight .Most dogs hate getting hosed down and will do what ever they can to avoid it. But not such a good idea for inside the house.
middlelee
I had a situation like that with cats and my vet suggested Prozac. It worked and after a few years the Prozac was discontinued and the problem did not come back.
Doug R
@OzarkHillbilly: Spray bottle with light solution of ammonia and hit ’em both when the fight starts?
Then they know they both get into trouble?
brantl
One of the few things that you might be able to do is grab them both by the collars, pinch both collars together in one hand , get in their faces, and yell at them as loud as you possible can. But you would really have to manhandle them, to show them that you mean business; I have seen this work twice, both times, it was done by really big people, that the dogs really respected, and commonly obeyed.
Betty Cracker
@trollhattan: Fascinating — glad they were able to work it out, and if you get a chance to ask for more details, I’d be grateful to hear them!
One thing I do blame myself for: Pete pestered Badger a lot, and I brushed it off as puppy behavior, but now I think Badger felt bullied, and maybe this all stems from his fear of being bullied by a larger dog and it getting out of control.
I brushed it off because Badger had done the same to Daisy when he was a pup, and Daisy had done the same to Bart when she was a pup, and so on. I thought they’d grow out of it, so I didn’t take it seriously.
But the dynamic between two males might be different, and I should have realized that. (Both are fixed, but still.)
OzarkHillbilly
@Doug R: Yeah, you gotta hit them both, it incentivizes both to avoid the fight. I don’t know about the light ammonia solution, how light? Need to avoid the eyes? etc etc.
Reboot
Not a dog expert and don’t know if your schedules and your locale would permit, but have you and your husband tried taking them on long walks together a suitable distance apart? This way they might get distracted by the activity and smells, be doing something rewarding to them while they’re together so they’d associate each other with something positive, and possibly get tired enough to take the edge off their urge to fight each other.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: That wouldn’t have occurred to me, either, Betty. Please don’t blame yourself for that.
Ann Marie
How old is Badger? In my case it was cats, not dogs. My old cat Louie got along fairly well with kitten Harley for a couple of years, but then when Louie reached 19 problems started. Louie’s eyes got cataracts, so he wasn’t seeing Harley well, plus I think he may have had some dementia. It was like he didn’t know who Harley was any more. Louie would just snarl at Harley and chase him in a really menacing way. Harley was never hurt, but he did too much running and hiding. Louie faded pretty fast, so this period did not last long and Harley is fine. That part about Badger acting as if he’d seen Pete before sounds like the way Louie acted. Maybe a vet visit for Badger, just in case?
Shalimar
40 minutes until Twittergeddon.
Jackie
Muzzle them both? Then if they duke it out they aren’t ripping into each other with their teeth.
Baud
@Shalimar: ?
The Moar You Know
I have. Animal aggression is difficult. Dog aggression is quite difficult. A decade ago we adopted a dog that, unbeknowst to us, had a very bad case of food aggression. This wasn’t acceptable, we have both occasional visits from small kids and a fair number of visits from other dogs into our house.
We tried. And we failed.
I have literally never had anything cause me as much guilt in my entire life: we had to return him. He ended up in a great home, but damn I will never forget to my dying day the look back he gave us as they led him off. He thought he’d see us in a few minutes. Jesus.
We made the right decision, regardless. Any honest behaviorist – and I have one that I work with to this day for our current dog, for training – will tell you that aggressive animal behavior can be dealt with UP TO A POINT. You cannot get rid of it entirely. So you’re doing the right thing by talking to specialists – and definitely talk to at least three of them – but this may not end well as someone may have to go.
Also get them both medically examined, especially the “aggressor”. A feeling of sickness, weakness or pain can make a formerly good dog really nasty.
I feel for you and wish you all the luck in the world. This is scary at best, heartbreaking at worst.
karen marie
My sympathies, Betty. I don’t have any suggestions but I’d be super leery of sending the dogs away for training. If a trainer can’t do whatever they’re going to do in front of me or instruct me on what techniques to use, I’m not buying.
In my – admittedly limited — experience, the best way to train a dog is to train the owner. I hope you find someone who can provide you the tools to solve this unfortunate problem.
CarolPW
@OzarkHillbilly: Inside I use a super soaker.
Shalimar
@Baud: The time by which Twitter employees are supposed to agree to working 80 hour weeks from now on or get fired.
ian
O/T but a pretty cool development- Largest Dam removal in history
Betty Cracker
@Reboot: That is a great suggestion, and definitely one of the activities dog behavior experts recommend, according to my research. We do walk them together but far enough apart where they can’t fight, and it definitely does seem to distract them from focusing on each other, but so far, we’ve got the same crappy behavior when we get back home.
I’ve never muzzled either dog, but I’m considering doing that so I can walk them on either side of me so we could walk more often. I work at home, so it could be a twice daily thing instead of once if I could manage both on my own.
So far, I’ve only tried positive techniques, mostly stuff like walks or giving treats when the dogs are in each other’s presence, hoping that they’ll associate the other dog with good things. It hasn’t really worked so far, but it hasn’t made things worse either.
At this point, I’m willing to try meds if that could help. Our vet prescribed some anti-anxiety meds for Badger when this all started, but it didn’t seem to help. Maybe doggie Prozac for both is worth a shot.
Baud
@ian:
Oh, that’s what the wingnut Rep from California was talking about in the run up to Pelosi.
Baud
@Shalimar:
Thanks.
Andrew Abshier
DVM here, and former animal trainer. I have almost never seen good results from board-and-train facilities, mainly because, at the end of the day, the owners need to be the ones working with the pets, not just a professional trainer. So not send the dogs out to one of those places was a good move.
Brantl @ #10: NO. This would actually be the worst thing to do. If the aggression redirects, and that can happen, having one’s face in a dog’s face is a recipe for trouble. Dominance-based training is outmoded, but too many people still do it “thanks” to Cesar Milan. I’ve read case reports from board-certified veterinarian behaviorists who have had to fix the damage from dogs Milan has worked with. Humans escalating the situation will not be helpful ,at minimum.
Inter-dog aggression is a very tough nut to crack. Are there times they can peacefully coexist? Is the fighting over resources, whether it be food, toys, or attention from the people? Can you get video clips of how they are approaching each other before a fight breaks out? Those can give a lot of clues to whatever professional you may hire to help solve your problem. I know veterinary behaviorists will want them.
Good luck.
ByRookorbyCrook
Sorry to hear this BC. We had a little bit of aggression when we first got our Yellow Lab, Finn from our jack Russell, rat terrier, beagle mutt, Maeve. Our vet recommended a pheromone spray we put on a bandana for Maeve, they use it for nervous dogs during visits. It worked and Maeve and Finn are good together. It is called Adaptil; you can get it through Chewy.
Andrew Abshier
@Betty Cracker: in situations of aggression I have seen SSRIs (a group that includes Prozac) actually lower the threshold for aggression, which is the worst thing to do in these situations. Unless your pet or pets were previously diagnosed with anxiety, I personally think SSRI drugs are contraindicated in this situation.
Your positive-based behavior interventions are a good start.
The Moar You Know
@Ohio Mom: my experience using psychiatric drugs for dog behavior (Clomicalm, a tricyclic, and whatever they call veterinary Prozac) is that, at best, the dogs just sleep more. They essentially do nothing useful, I am very sorry to say.
Emily B.
@Reboot: My partner’s dog, a pit-boxer mix, doesn’t get along well with other dogs—he wants to mount them all, and often they don’t take kindly to it. This is a problem when the humans in the household want to socialize with other humans who also have a dog. One solution that has worked pretty well is for everyone—humans and dogs—to go for a walk together. Once we’re a pack and we have a mission, the dogs seem to work out some kind of truce, even our dopey misfit.
The Moar You Know
@brantl: this is a great way to get bitten and make the problem far worse.
SkyBluePink
Just read about a similar situation with cats in the latest Best Friends magazine advice column Ask Faith with a reintroduction technique.
https://bestfriends.org/stories/best-friends-magazine/get-full-story-best-friends-magazine
Magazine archives: September/October 2022 issue Page 41
Hoping for the best for you and the pups.
J R in WV
Betty, having had lots of dogs with other dogs, we haven’t ever had this problem… yet, our neighbors have a dog, kinda part corgi, who visited us and out dogs and was happy with all the dogs. Then we got two big new dogs, and Maris the neighbor corgi, was frantic to attack our new dogs… go figure.
Anyway, haven’t read the comments yet, but wanted to ask, are these dogs both neutered? We’ve always neutered male dogs, esp big ones, Boomer was 95 lbs and caught the UPS truck on it’s way out often, dragging along behind the truck, but was calm with all the other neighborhood dogs. And cats.
ETA: Ok, see both dogs are “fixed” — never mind.
Will now learn from others about their dogs. Best of luck with this crazed issue.
Many years ago we adopted our first two cats, and after the female was at the vet for spay, they were instantly evil haters of each other after months of being best buddies… This was in the V early ’70s, so a long time ago now.
TriassicSands
I’m sorry to hear that, Betty.
My experience was with cats. I adopted two at the same time — a male and a female, who was always dominant, but they got along well together their whole lives. However, two years later another cat showed up at my house. She was sick and emaciated. The vet removed a badly infected uterus and I nursed her back to health.
Then, I read up on how to introduce a new cat into the household and followed the instructions carefully. It never made any difference. The original female never accepted the late comer and would instantly attack if she got the chance. I had to keep them separate for about 15 years. Fortunately, I had leash-trained the two original cats and the newbie was an indoor-outdoor cat. When she was inside, I took the others outside on walks.
I lived in a small house, and #3 lived in the bedroom with me, while numbers 1 and 2 had the rest of the house. I installed a cat door in the bedroom window and #3 could go in and out as she pleased. I’m not a fan of outdoor cats,* but it seemed the only workable solution without surrendering one of them. It worked, but they weren’t dogs.
* I’m definitely a fan of giving all cats time outside on a leash — a long leash that lets them roam a bit
Trying drugs, carefully, might help. If you try that, I hope it is successful.
sab
That’s terrible. I have had multiple dogs for decades and never had the males fight, but we alwys had an older female to act as the matriarch. My grandfather, who had german shorthair pointers for show and hunting, did have problems when there were only males around. He was rich, so every dog had his own dog run. I have no useful advice on how to train them out of it, and he had the money and access to trainers.
Maybe satby has some ideas
ETA Being show dogs, everyone of his dogs were intact. My dogs have always been neutered.
RedDirtGirl
I’m so sorry Betty. Such a stressful situation.
PaulWartenberg
My cats suggest hiring a cat as new boss of house.
Betty Cracker
@Ann Marie: Badger is 4 years old, so I don’t think it’s an age thing. He was due for his annual check-up anyway back when this whole shit-show started, and all his tests were fine, so I don’t think it’s a health issue, but maybe it’s worth revisiting. Thanks!
@Jackie: That has occurred to me too. If it really is a dominance thing between the two dogs, maybe that would be a safe way to settle it — I just don’t know.
@The Moar You Know: That’s my greatest fear: that we won’t be able to solve the problem. I honestly don’t know if I could ever get over it if that happens. Just thinking about it makes me so depressed I can barely breathe.
@karen marie: My husband is leery of that too. I don’t know what to think. The guy does do in-depth home-training too but says the dogs need to be away from home for a “reset,” and then we would need to follow the instructions when we collect them to make the behavior stick. He also says they do free in-home follow up if needed. But the charge for it is massive! I’d gladly pay if I knew it would work, but I just don’t know.
Delk
Maybe put cones on both of them for a while? Kind of hard to bite each other that way.
persistentillusion
So sorry you’re having this experience! We went through something similar years ago. Elderly male Lab, new puppy Aussie mix also male. The puppy loved everyone and the Lab thought everyone was ok but HATED the puppy. It turned out to be food related and when we fed them in different rooms, everyone calmed down.
We had gotten the puppy because the Lab was obviously on his very last legs. His passing would have been the first death my kids would experience, so the puppy was an attempt to distract them. Lab lived for another 6 months to everyone’s surprise, fueled by his resentment of the puppy.
WaterGirl
@ian: That must have been what that whiner was talking about during his one-minute speech in the House – this was before Nancy Pelosi spoke.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I wrote my comment at #42 before seeing this from you.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@cthulhu:
My method for getting our cats to get along is to be a bigger asshole than our biggest furry asshole. Figuratively, of course! He’s the local cat mob boss and ass kicker but sometimes he feels the need to ‘go alpha’ on his two roomies. From experience, the best way to stop it was to give him a taste of intimidation every time he gets out of line. IOW, if anyone is going to be an asshole, it’s me and it works. Separate the cats, loudly use a single phrase every time to let him know he fucked up, and then stomp, yell and wildly gesticulate to terrorize the little furry terrorist from one end of the house to the other until you decide he’s had enough (it takes a bit but you get good at it real fast) and/or submits (goes to ground).
A swift, sharp tap on the forehead if emphasis is needed. A few times of doing this and the bad boy backs down and behaves. Not only that but the other cats figure out real fast that they’re not the one in trouble and will stand there and watch the fun.
The big bastard will be back in less than a half hour to check if everything is OK between us and beg a few treats. He knows that I’m the boss and he’s pretty good about behaving now. This treatment usually holds him over for a couple of months now and most future violations are stopped with a stern warning that he knows means more will follow if he doesn’t straighten up.
But first you have to do it more than a few times so that they learn the consequences of their actions. They do learn…
sab
@brantl: No, no, no. Everyone will get bitten.
Old Dan and Little Ann
That sucks. My black lab and my niece’s golden retriever got into a brief, nasty fight last Thanksgiving. Yogi mounts and Rooney said fuck that noise. My dog is 1/2 the size of the golden. We are visiting again next week. We have to roam their 80 acres at different different times.
Betty Cracker
@Andrew Abshier: I was hoping you’d see this post and weigh in — thanks! They used to peacefully coexist, but now we’re afraid to have them in the same room (or yard) unleashed. We can all share a sitting area together as long as the dogs are leashed and not within range of each other, but even then, sometimes one will eyeball the other and go berserk.
Prior to the all-out war between them, there had been minor flashpoints around food, toys and attention from my husband, but nothing that seemed too alarming at the time. I’ll definitely get some video clips for the behaviorist. Thank you!
Reboot
@Betty Cracker: When I was briefly on antidepressants they seemed to give my brain a mild reset (although I was still feeling all the emotions, basically). So maybe doggie Prozac plus walks would be the way to go.
I might also add muzzles into the mix, if that didn’t seem to make Pete and Badger anxious, and try fading their use if the walks were going well. The muzzles also might be distracting! Something to get them thinking about something other than their beef with each other.
The Moar You Know
@Betty Cracker: this may come off weird and it’s not meant to be weird: I’m glad to hear you say that. You will fight to make this work. In order for whatever plan you arrive at to have the chance to work (you will likely try a few different approaches and different people) you gotta be determined and in it for the long haul. It sounds like you will be.
There is no “one simple trick”. Modifying established behavior takes a long time, is hard, and can be an infuriating mix of steps forward and backwards.
I met two trainers who I refused to use:
The guy who showed me all the scars on his hands – “I’ve been bitten by every dog I’ve worked with”. Hard pass. He’s great at getting dogs to bite. Just what nobody needed, ever.
The guy who wanted to use shock collars. There is a place for light punishment in some situations, but those are very few. You certainly don’t start that way.
Also, let me recommend every book by “The Monks of New Skete”. I recommend those to anyone who has a dog, troubled or not. They really helped me understand what kind of critter I was dealing with – I’d been a cat owner most of my life, but I married a dog owner 12 years ago and, well, I have dogs now.
Related: let me just get this off my chest. Cesar Millan is a fucking fraud who has caused far more harm than help.
ETA: Andrew seems to know his shit. Nice to make your acquaintance, Andrew.
Jess
My rescue is territorial and aggressively dominant to other dogs–doesn’t try to seriously bite them, but will grab them and try to pin them. A combination of group training and prozac has helped a lot; he’s still far from perfect, but much better; doesn’t go into a red zone state now. As some here have noted, in a few cases prozac can make dogs more, rather than less, aggressive, but for the majority it seems to work well. I’m taking an SSRI myself, and I can see how it works on my dog in a similar way. Doesn’t make him dopey, just mellower and less anxious. The other thing that worked was training him with an e-collar. I just use it for recall, but I did once have to use it to recall him from charging another dog, and that taught him to listen to me when I tell him to “leave it.” So I do agree with Cesar Millan that you need to be the leader of the pack, but you don’t do it by being aggressive with the dog (as some seem to think Cesar does; he does not), but rather by being “calm and assertive,” as Cesar says, and consistent and patient. It’s more about being parental than dominant.
My Cody is okay with dogs he knows and who are friendly towards him–it’s “outsider” dogs he has a problem with–so it’s a different problem with dogs who live together. Dogs who work together as a pack get along better than dogs that are competing for resources (you being the primary resource), so I would find ways to make them work as a team on a regular basis, and then separate them at home as much as possible. “Balanced” training (rather than positive only) in a group with other dogs will reinforce the idea that YOU own THEM, not the other way around.
Major Major Major Major
Oh, no, how awful.
Sasha
We had almost the exact problem except with cats. Cat 1 went to the vet, came back in cone of shame and drugged out of his little cat mind.Cat 3 who is a bully but never bothered Cat 1 before started yowling and hissing and everything short of actual violence. It passed but it took weeks. Cat 3 is quite the bully and is definitely the problem and is pretty crappy to our other cat, Cat 2. The situation is manageable but at it’s peak awfulness, someone suggested separating them for at least two weeks. This is total separation where they cannot see each other at all and are never in the same space. After two weeks are up, re-introduce them slowly to each other.
I don’t know if this works but Cat 2 had a pretty serious health issue that required him to be separated from the other cats for over a week. There were a great many changes that arose from that so it’s hard to say definitively what mattered and what didn’t but they get along much better post health issue. Cat 3 is still an a$$hole but he doesn’t torment Cat 2 as much. Again, cats, not dogs but it might help.
Another idea I’ve heard but not tried is to train each dog to go to his own mat and sit on it. The idea being, it is more effective to give the dog a positive command “Go Mat” then a vague command to stop, etc..
Best of luck to you.
WaterGirl
Do you have friends or family (without pets) where they could each be away from home for a week or two? Obviously at two separate places. Or maybe even board them at two separate facilities?
While they are gone you could super-clean your house – god only knows what they can smell that we can’t – so there’s no smell of fear or weird or anything when they return? And maybe get rid of the cone, even though they are not cheap.
That would interrupt the cycle at least, without leaving them in care of they guy that wants to train them at his place. To me, that’s got danger and warning written all over it.
I will second the notion of checking them both out again at the vet. The only time my kitties fight is when Mr. Bear is not feeling right.
Jess
Just want to say, I really don’t get all the hate directed towards Cesar Millan. He corrects dogs the same way a mother dog corrects her pups when they get out of line. The criticism I’ve read doesn’t not correlate with what he actually does, and his animals obviously trust him, which they wouldn’t do if he were hurting them
Edit: example of mother dog correcting pups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBe0jT6S3U
zhena gogolia
I’m sorry, Betty. I have no wisdom to offer — never had a dog. Cats are good at getting out of each other’s way.
TaMara
You would think that having rescued and raised 9 Great Danes (and one greyhound), I’d have some profound advice. But Danes are so different. The one thing that I learned early on – there has to be a human alpha in the house or chaos rules.
They outweigh me, they are stronger than I am and, much like a very spirited horse, know when they can get the best of their person and take full advantage. So, alpha I became. I break up disagreements quickly, don’t allow anyone to bully anyone (oh, man Scout and Jasper are working through that right now), and make sure the rules are followed. Timeouts work wonders with Danes because they don’t like to be separated from their pack.
And they respond best to a female alpha (human, cat or dog) so that works in my favor.
But like I said, Danes are so different. My friends’ Belgian shepherd stayed with us for a week, and he treated us all like we were his less intelligent cousins and tried to herd us (including the cats, that didn’t go over well). LOL I imagine I would try and fail at any training with those type of dogs.
Reboot
@Reboot: Andrew Abshier DVM makes me realize I shouldn’t have even mildly suggested doggie Prozac. His comment was a mini-lesson to me.
CaseyL
Betty, I am so sad to hear this. As a cat person, I have no useful info for you, and will leave advice-giving to those among us who know dogs. Both Badger and Pete are adorable pups, and I fervently hope the situation can be fixed!
Jess
@Reboot: His is just one opinion, professional as it is. I’ve heard wildly different opinions from other professionals.
Princess
I’m so sorry. We needed to rehome a cat because of this issue. The whole period was awful — one of the worst times in my life. So I feel you, and I think it is much harder with big dogs. In the end, all the cats ended up much happier, which is the end goal. I hope it doesn’t come to that for you — I think dogs are more amenable to training so I wish you good luck!
Salty Sam
We had a blue heeler mix named Lucy. When she was about nine months old she started being aggressive towards my younger son, who was then then about 5 yrs old. She nipped him a few times, and the second time she drew blood, we call in a professional dog whisperer.
Lucy was an Alpha personality (we nicknamed her Alphabitch after all this was all resolved), and was attempting to rise in the pecking order of her pack (our family), starting with Danny, the youngest. All natural dog behavior, but not good for dog/human packs. The solution was for Danny to dominate her. For about two weeks, she lived in a corner of the kitchen, on a short leash tied to the pantry door. Danny fed her, took her outside for potty breaks, walked her, and at random times, would stand astraddle of her (a dominance posture). Inside of that two weeks, Lucy “got it”, that Danny was ahead of her in the pack, and she settled down and accepted her position. She was the best dog I’ve ever had, and I miss her still, 15 years later.
Sounds like Pete and Badger are trying to work out their places in your pack. I don’t have any idea how you replicate what we did with Lucy and Danny- I wouldn’t even want to try to figure out which one was the more naturally dominant doggo.
Maybe boxing gloves and Marquis de Queensbury rules?
JPL
Friends have mentioned that Prozac works for pets, and muzzles don’t hurt. Why not try both so that you and hubby can have some peace. Then you can wean them off the muzzles. Lots of good ideas though.
I had the opposite problem with males, and it was when mom is away, we can play. Not good, since it involved cushions and fluff all over the house.
sab
Cats aren’t dogs. We’ve had lots of both and they just aren’t the same. Cats squabble all the time and hiss and spit and yowl and scratch.
Dogs fighting are terrifying because when they get serious (rare but not that rare) they often mean to kill each other.
My comment above about my grandfather’s hunting and show dogs. Their training was being shipped off to be trained. So Dr AA’s comment on outsourcing training probably applies.
MazeDancer
@ByRookorbyCrook:
Adaptil sounds like Feliway for cats. Which does work.
So, worth a try, Betty.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker: I can reach out and see how many details they might recall–been a few years and the family has a funny way of altering history to “it wasn’t so bad” with time. My impression was, pretty bad. But whatever they did, worked.
Jess
@TaMara: I agree with you here; bullying needs to be nipped in the bud, for sure. The message you need to send is only you are allowed to mete out discipline. I’ve worked hard to convince my very dominant, former street dog of this. My previous dog was an alpha, but immediately accepted me as the boss. This one, however, continually tests me, but after a year of consistent work, he’s finally looking to me for direction instead of taking matters into his own hands (er, paws).
cain
@Butch: Deleted as my comment is not a good idea.
StringOnAStick
@ian: I worked with a guy who modeled the sediment movement if the Elwha dam was removed; I was thrilled to see it happened though it was over 20 years later.
I’m glad to see the Klamath be returned to free flowing. One thing that doesn’t get mentioned because reporters don’t understand it, but the presence of reservoirs is a huge reason why the salmon are failing because the reservoirs increase the temperature of the water, and that’s what has led to such huge mortality of the salmon hatchlings. When the river is free flowing, the water from snowmelt and groundwater inflows make it colder for the baby salmon; water impounded behind reservoirs is subject to warming, and warmer water carries less oxygen and enhances problems with parasites and disease.
sab
@Jess: Problem with Cesar Milan is he read too much. I watched his shows a lot. I think he understands dogs a lot from actual experience. What he did was often very effective, but it didn’t agree with what he said. I think he was buying into a lot of pack hierarchy theory based on disrupted and reconstituted wolf packs. Which is like evaluating human society based on biker gangs.
Alpha dominance is sort of okay if the alpha is your dad (or mom). Less so if if it’s another random adult. That is just a criminal gang.
And didn’t he have a hiphop star’s placid pitbull as enforcer for much of that? Cesar wasn’t running things. The big calm dog was.
ETA When and how he corrected in the moment was often just the right thing to do. I followed his example with my dogs a lot to good effect. But his theoretical rationales were nuts or garbage.
Mike in NC
Just read that WaPo columnist Michael Gerson died today of cancer at the age of 58.
Ruviana
@sab: Cats can seem very scary but I had a younger cat who would periodically attack her mom and it was terrifyingly different from general rough, even very rough, play. What worked was a tranquilizer administered as an ointment and absorbed through the skin (on her ear). What worked for her was imipramine, an older tricyclic, not an SSRI. Don’t know how this translates for dogs but it might be another avenue to explore.
Heidi Mom
I’ve only had one dog at a time, so no personal advice to give. However, the best book about dogs that I’ve ever read, and that I think all dog owners should read, is Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier, who practices “relationship-based training” (and raises GSDs). She has a website (suzanneclothier.com) and offers online consultations for behavioral problems. The cost is several hundred dollars, not thousands.
Jess
@sab: Actually, the “debunking” of the wolf-pack hierarchy was debunked in turn. Wolves absolutely have a pack hierarchy; it’s just based more on family structure. And we’re our dogs’ families and need to be in charge. He used “Daddy” and now “Junior” b/c many dogs respond well to other dogs as models for behavior. Other trainers do this as well
Wolves: https://wolfhaven.org/conservation/wolves/pack-structure/
sab
@Mike in NC: I had no idea he was so young. No wonder Bush and Rove could lead him so astray.
trollhattan
@Mike in NC: His greatest hits include the good ol’ “Axis of Evil.”
He will not be missed, at least not in my house.
Cameron
@TaMara: I had an occasional gig doggy-sitting two female Rottweilers. Everything was cool after they figured out I was in charge. How I accomplished that, I have no idea – the only dog I ever owned was a 25-lb. female terrier/retriever mix.
Ruviana
@sab: Lol, Neanderthal biker gangs!
Jess
@Cameron: Terriers are usually fiercer than Rotties. If you can boss around a terrier, you’re doing well.
StringOnAStick
We had this happen with our two cat sisters after we were afraid the chewer had eaten too much fabric (it is royal PITA but we have adapted) so she had to go get emergency X-rays. I think she let loose with some kind of major fear smell because once we brought her home, she was sitting with us and the other came up and sniffed her butt, eyes went wide and the hissing began. We had to separate them for 6 weeks total and do all the reintroduction stuff, but it worked though one is more dominant over the other. The corner was turned when we bathed the cat that had been at the vet, paying extra attention to the butt zone.
Long story short, have they both been bathed since the vet visit that started all this? The anal gland stuff can trigger reactions.
sab
@Jess: I think that is my point also. Asserting dominance only works well if there is already a recognized hierarchy ( family). Otherwise it’s just thuggishness. It is not the dominance that wins, it is the recognition that the proper hierchy is in charge.
Jess
I think the key is to recognize the warning signs before a fight breaks out, and step in at that point. Once they’ve gone into a red zone, there’s little that can be done.
Cameron
@Jess: There were only the two of us. And I wasn’t the boss. ETA: she figured out pretty quickly that I was full of shit; the Rotties never caught on. They thought that growly bass voice they heard was the real deal.
One of the Many Jens
Really sorry to hear that, that stinks.
I agree that training the trainer is the key, but I can see there might be some value in letting them reset outside the home with interactions that don’t involve the major resource at issue (e.g., you and your husbands’ attention – my assumption is that’s the primary issue, but maybe other/more than that), and then be able to bring them both back into the home on an even footing, and (having gotten some train-the-trainer while they’re away) start up their in-the-home training with you.
Also, I had a leash reactive dog, and I found that some of Grisha Stewart’s BAT techniques were really helpful (to add a name/organization to your behaviorist list).
Jess
@sab: Exactly. And that’s what Cesar does, and teaches his clients to do. They’re not “dominating” in the sense of intimidating or overpowering the dog, but just having the authoritative presence and clarity of purpose to establish the boundaries. I use what I’ve learned from him in the classroom all the time, and it works with rowdy teens as well as dogs.
sab
@Jess: I argue with my pitmix every night over custody of the covers and blankets, and every night my husband is terrified. Pitty has strong opinions. I have never had a dog so obstinate.
Some dog breeds are more stubborn (and scary) than others. Terriers and mastiffs are the most stubborn, and boston terriers are descended from both.
Jess
@Cameron: LOL. Yeah, Rotties are pussycats compared to those little terrors–I mean terriers.
Barbara
SSRIs did not help my aggressive dog, but I believe they are probably worth a try, especially if the dog is not aggressive towards humans or other dogs. However, as the doggie psych told me, SSRIs alone are rarely sufficient to really reset a dog’s tendency toward aggression. You have to utilize some kind of trained behavioral modification. The doctor I saw gave me “doggie meditation” exercises that really just seemed like a way to make the dog focus on his relationship with the owner, and follow the owner’s lead. I have no idea whether there are other techniques when two dogs don’t get along. For the dog I was trying to help, nothing worked, but his aggression appeared much earlier in life.
Currently, the dog I have had for 11 years is continually nasty towards the (much larger) dog that my daughter brought with her when she joined us during the pandemic. My dog’s aggressive behavior is definitely tied to food jealousy, but it occurs outside of feeding time. I think it is also tied to the fact that she is now almost totally deaf and just generally more anxious because she is less attuned to what is going on around her. However, the size differential seems to keep the situation at bay, because occasionally, Daisy will turn on the much smaller doggie (like 60 versus 15 pounds), who will back off. So while not happy, there is no risk of an existential fight to the death scenario. They are also both female. So I suspect the fact that you have evenly matched males is part of what makes it so hard to address.
I really hope you can work it out.
Jess
@sab: As long as you win! I only let my dogs on my bed once I was certain they understood I was the boss. They need to know it’s a privilege, not a right.
Lymie
I have two un-neutered males and an old (old) neutered male (I show and do performance and will neuter as appropriate, so no unplanned breeding is happening!). The younger one tries stuff everyone now and then mostly from jealousy over my attention. Yelling, “Hey, what the fuck!” has so far been adequate and no serious encounters, mostly because the middle guy is so non-confrontational.
I feel your pain.
sab
@Jess: That ship has long since sailed. Don’t tell me: satby won this argument ages ago.
sab
@Lymie: That sounds like good advice that might work.
itswhatson
Had it with cats. First time, I came home and they were howling at each other from their corners. They’d run around the house knocking into and over things. They were irreconcilable.
Vet diagnosted misdirected agression. A wire gets crossed for some reason and one thinks the other is the enemy, especially after an arousing event. The target wonders what the hell is going on, and trust is broken. Steve vs. Cole after the groomers but seemingly permanent.
Recommendation was the keep them separate for at least a couple of weeks but potentially for a couple of months, then reintroduce them to each other. Feed them on either side of a closed door, so they can smell each other while good things are happening. Smelling each other was apparently key.
We waited a week and then did the reintroduction, with supervision, a few minutes at a time and building up to additional exposure. Lots of treats.
A few days after they started they were best buds again. Phew.
Since then, every few months there’s some episode that sets them off, and there are bushy tales and some peeing on the floor by the one being chased around (one is much smaller than the other) and some very unusual noises. In each case we were there and able to nip in the bud. Separate them for a day, then reintroduce them to each other, and a few days later it’s fine, until the next time.
Still no idea what’s the trigger. Doesn’t seem to be an outside cat or other critter. The vet says all it takes is one of them misperceiving a look to mean “let’s go.”
We have them on Composure Chews and a propriotic that is supposed to reduce anxiety via the mind-gut axis. We don’t have Felliway out but the vet puts that in the same category. None are advertised as silver bullets. Maybe some or all in combination take some of the edge off.
Tough, horrible problem. Appreciate the other responses here. Good luck.
sab
@Jess: My vet loves most dogs but he pretty much hates rotts. Thinks they are sociopaths.
Jess
@sab: How I feel about Mastiffs.
Bunter
While it’s a long shot, you could check Badger’s thyroid levels. Low levels can lead to aggression, I had one of my hounds on it. I’ll admit it’s probably not that but hey, why not test, right?
Elizabelle
Betty C: Sorry to hear of the dog drama. Hope it can be resolved; have no suggestions on that front.
feebog
We now have two male dogs for the first time ever. Baloo is a senior Dobi/shep mix. He was dominant with Minnie, our female golden mix before she died. We were not going to adopt another dog but Tyke, a 6 year-old cattle dog kind of fell into our laps via the homeopathic vet who treated Minnie in her last days. Tyke has accepted the beta role for now, but we keep a close eye on them both. Play time is with both of them. Equal time cuddling on the sofa. But I think the key is hemp. Baloo gets it to mellow him out a little and it seems to be working so far.
Jess
@sab: It’s never too late for a reset! If your pup argues with you, get her off the bed. Use a leash if you have to. Never get angry, never lose patience. Just be a machine for removing objects off your bed. That’s what I had to do with Cody, over and over, until he finally gave up. By being machine-like, I convinced him he was never going to win the battle. Now I do let him sleep with me, but he never gets up without my invitation.
sab
@Jess: Too many people hear ” dominating” as threatening and overpowering. My pitmix, who had a difficult life with her first family, who got scarily aggressive, will get as aggressive with me if I scare her as much and tried that on her. So we just beg to differ and push and shove in bed. Daytime she is a worshipful doll.
She adores our cats and is always gentle.
satby
@sab: LOL
@Betty up top: some dogs are meant to be only dogs. I’ve mentioned before the tragedy that occurred while I kept one dog who was sweet to humans but over the course of three years began attacking all my other dogs, including the one she previously was pretty bonded to. After a dog sitter AGAIN disregarded my strong warnings and a fight ensued that had to be broken up by animal control, it cost me $1k in surgery for my Hershey, who was not the aggressor, and Rosa had to be put down after making a mild injury worse throwing herself at the cage door in animal control and nearly bleeding out. I was able to be with her as she passed, and still feel I failed that dog. Her aggression started slowly but kept increasing. And though she was calm and well behaved with people and loved kids, even our rescue vet said she couldn’t be trusted not to attack a human one day. I have no advice other than to be realistic about how things are going and be ready to re-home if you need to to spare them both. Edit: and yes, for three years I was doing a separation relay to keep the dogs apart.
sab
@Jess: Something to think about. But I do love her in bed. Time to decide on her welfare. Not good to be allowed to be a jerk.
NutmegAgain
Sending all my support. I’ve never had a dog who was aggressive with another dog in the house. I have had dogs who were aggressive to other random dogs when we were out leash-walking, and I had one who went so insane when she saw bike riders (especially from 2nd story windows) that eventually I took her back to rescue. After re-doing the fence, taking her to Dr Dodson the animal behavioral specialist (not far from where I lived) and all kinds of stuff. In the end I couldn’t keep her safe enough. That’s what it came down to.
Even when it’s searingly painful (and it is) if you have a good breed rescue in your area they should be understanding, and able to help. (yeah, I am thinking that means re-homing one of your dogs.) So sad, but you don’t want a bloodbath, and you can’t have any kind of life (nor can they) if you are separating and monitoring 24/7.
Ach. Sending so much consolation.
SaltHorizon
I’m so sorry. Without going into the details of our situation, which has improved and is livable, I strongly endorse the suggestions to use a dog behaviorist. (Ours trained at the University of Edinburgh, which has one of only a few programs in the world.) I am not a DVM or a dog behaviorist, but I’m very concerned about the suggestions to let them fight it out—based on personal experience, your dogs might really hurt each other. (We didn’t mean to let ours fight, to be clear.) As far as Prozac…that’s something to talk about with a behaviorist and a vet. Knowing that Prozac is known to lower bite inhibition, we are giving it to our difficult dog, cautiously under veterinary and behaviorist guidance, because in her case it seems to help her have more impulse control and less anxiety.
Hang in there. There have been many days that our difficult dog has made me cry. It has been so much work getting her as far as she’s gotten and there is still a long way to go. But it’s rewarding. She adores us…even more than average for dogs. I’ve earned that adoration. I have also learned a lot about doghood from her.
kalakal
@SkyBluePink: I’ll have to try that. Virgil has become a terrible bully towards Peaseblossom. He’s twice her size, no damage as yet, but it’s very worrying
Jess
@sab: I hear you. I’ve had to work slowly and carefully with Cody, since he came to me traumatized by being taken from the streets and tossed into a horrible dog “gulag” in Russia. I’ve been gentle but firm with him, never raising my voice and taking things one step at a time. I would say it took about a year before he fully bonded to me and put aside his sense of autonomy. He’s great now. Still needs some work, but is turning into a really wonderful companion.
Anne Laurie
@Betty Cracker: I’m sorry, Betty. It’s so hard to feel like you’re just not getting through to them!
Prozac for both sounds like a start, if your vet agrees. The other thing I’ve seen work is you & your husband each taking a dog to a training class every week, same class same time, with each human handling their ‘less preferred’ dog. It gets them in the habit of paying attention *specifically* to what the human is telling them (and also, a reinforced common language about acceptable behavior). But I realize this may be difficult for you, since you’re way out in the boonies and on separate work schedules…
sab
@satby: My current pittmix grew up with chihuahuas and got on with them, but she is nuts with other dogs, including the new neighbors’ placid GSD schutzhund. She is also nutz with deer in the backyard.
I have her with five happy cats, but she would probably kill any dog, however mild, that I brought in. I have never had a dog like this. Terriers are insane.
Cameron
@Jess: My terrier’s besty was a 140-lb female mastiff. Very strange watching the two of them playing. They’d wrestle over a stick, and the mastiff would pretend my pup had overpowered her and give it up; they’d chase each other, and mine would slow down and pretend the mastiff had outrun her.
sab
@Jess: But would you bring another dog in?
persistentillusion
@sab: Try Australian Cattle Dogs for stubborn. I had one who was an escape artist. Left in the house while the humans went to a ball game, he went out a partially open window, onto the roof of the porch, jumped off and was there to greet us in the front yard upon our return. (Only a scrape on his nose.) He was annoyed we had left him at home and wanted us to know. Wasn’t going to let a little thing like gravity get in his way.
Geminid
@StringOnAStick: The state of Virginia demolished some dams on the James River, near Richmond, and now the shad and herring run all the way to Lynchburg and up the tributaries.
And they cleaned the James up enough that sturgeon live in the waters around Richmond.
Feathers
Only ever had one cat at a time, so no advice.
However, I did just see this super funny Owl Kitty Top Gun with a Cat video. There is also a Making Of which shows how the video was put together.
Apologies if this has previously been posted.
satby
Based on finally reading the whole thread, I will say one other thing: dogs can become mentally ill too, and an aggressive dog is always a risk at some point, though maybe only to other animals. Just like with humans, behavioral therapy, medication, training, etc doesn’t always work. A life of always being on alert is miserable for everyone if the solution is just that your dog wants to be an only child.
Remember those dog people on YouTube with the 30 dogs aren’t going to film the fights and ruin their brand.
SWMBO
Haven’t read all the comments but that’s never stopped me before…
We had 5 dogs in the house(all dachshunds). The biggest was Jake (he was a basset throwback). Dixie was my sister’s dog that they rehomed with us because Dixie not happy with the new puppy. Don’t know how old she was (she was a pound puppy rescue). She hated Jake with a passion. They got into scary fights for no apparent reason. Once under the dining table they went at it and bit each other to the point it looked like a scene from Carrie. Blood all over. Next day I went to the vet and said, “Tranks. Them or me.” The vet said, “Who starts the fights?” Dixie was in 95% of the fights so he said let’s start with her. He gave her generic Elavil, an antidepressant for people. It also has some pain management too. She eventually got up to the maximum dosage for her weight but sweet Mother of God, she was the best dog you could ask for on her meds. And an unholy terror without it. We boarded the dogs after she was on the meds for a while and the vet techs said that before the meds, it would take 3 of them to get her into and out of her cage without getting bitten. After her meds, she was the sweetest dog ever. She had arthritis issues which the Elavil alleviated as well. Talk to your vet. It may just be time for a happy pill for Badger. Or Pete. Or both.
Kelly
@The Moar You Know:
Funny story about that. When I was a child we moved near a family that had a young but full grown male German Shepard. We had male mutt of similar size and age. Mom heard a lot of barking and growling. Headed out to our yard where the neighbor’s youngest daughter, only a head taller than the dogs had a firm handful of each dogs neck fur and was yelling “Bad dog! Stop it!”. Mom is in full emergency save the child mode when both dogs stopped it. Child was amazing with animals of all types.
Jess
@sab: No, b/c Cody really doesn’t enjoy other dogs much, even the ones he’s friendlier with. They make him anxious. But he loved the cat (sadly gone now), and I think he would tolerate living with an easy-going dog that let Cody dominate him/her. But I prefer having just one dog, and he prefers being an only dog. He’s a bit of a loner, like me. We’re actually well matched; both high strung, bossy, independent, constantly sticking our noses into things.
Barbara
@Lymie: Those seem like really good suggestions, and they are consistent with the recommendations I received from the behavioral vet.
Andrew Abshier
@Jess: Cesar Milan is using outmoded and debunked methods for training dogs. As I stated in my post, a number of boarded veterinary behaviorists have had to intervene on dogs he has worked with. The Animal Behavior Society published a position paper on dominance-based training basically refuting it.
Kristine
I tend to think it’s a case of two males.
Late to this thread, but i had two males for about 4 years. Had King since he was 12 weeks old; Mickey was a rescue that I adopted when King was close to 3 yo. The shelter tech told me that Mickey was 3 1/2 but vets told me later that he was older than that.
King was a GSD-Lab mix weighing ~115-120lb. Mickey was a Lab mix–pretty sure the rest was pit bull– that weighed about 80lb when i got him and got up to 90+ after Mom got through feeding him.
Anyway, King and Mickey got along for the most part, but every few months they would mix it up to the point that one of them bled. They played rough and one would bite the other too hard and they’d be off. They’d separate on their own and then ignore one another for 2-3 hours. From what I recall, King remained “king.” I think Mickey may have been the dominant one in his old situation–he’d been rescued with a buddy but said buddy was adopted first–and every so often he’d try to reassert.
Contrast this with King and Gaby (female, much smaller). They only mixed it up once, when Gaby was here for just a few days and was malnourished and starving. I delayed serving Gaby dinner one night in order to add some meds to the food, so she went after King’s food and King went after her, got her one her back, and barked in her face loud enough to wake the dead while she squealed. Then he walked away, ate his dinner, and ignored Gaby for three hours. They never mixed it up again. Gaby would even take toys out of King’s mouth, and he let her.
Not sure this is any help since my crew worked it out. But there was a difference in the male:male vs male:female dynamic.
Jess
@Cameron: Awww! Sounds like my previous dog, a sweet-natured, 75 lb. Black Mouth Cur, trying to play with my neighbor’s chihuahua. I love when big dogs are so gentle with the little ones!
GrannyMC
Check out a YouTube channel called The Farm. This guy has taken in vicious, dangerous dogs that were slated for euthanasia and turned them into happy, well-adjusted dogs that get along fine with other dogs (and a cat) and humans.
For (I think) $25 a month you can access his training videos (just binge-watch them and then cancel). The first few videos in the training course explain how he uses voice “tones”, and this is important to understanding his methods. Also check out the videos and play lists for some of the specific dogs he has saved.
He does this without cruelty, not even a spray bottle. He doesn’t use clickers or treats, just his voice and sometimes muzzles and training halters. He rewards with praise, hugs, and scritches only.
prostratedragon
@Doug R: Mom always squirts me first!
[ETA to Betty C.] Really, an unfortunate problem. Hope something like the tranquilizers works and you can keep both dogs.
Kristine
@SWMBO:
Nominated.
Andrew Abshier
Link to American Behavior Society’s position paper on dominance-based training
prostratedragon
@Kristine:
If we had just one tag, …
JeanneT
Retired dog obedience instructor here. My first thoughts: DON’T send the dogs away. Don’t do aversives if they fight, except as needed to separate the dogs. Continue to set up your household so dogs are not accessible to each other except as part of training sessions.
My second thoughts: Find a trainer who will help you work on three different tracks. First track is desensitization: CONTINUE to use positive reinforcements when dogs are in the same space together – some kind of high value treat that ONLY show up when the dogs are in sight of each other AND not displaying aggressive signals. Your trainer should be the consultant who helps you stage your set up and coaches you through your handling/rewarding. If I were working with you, I’d start as with the dogs outdoors as far apart from each other to not be triggered, gradually decrease the distance as dogs relax. Work with walking toward and parallel the same way – treats when dogs can see each other from a distance but aren’t reacting to each other, decreasing distance only as dogs show relaxation and confidence.
(I wouldn’t work with walking the dogs close with muzzles until doing the parallel walking for several weeks and seeing a decrease in tension in the dogs. DO introduce and use the muzzles as part of safety management though!)
Second and third tracks would put each dog through two different training programs, first with each dog separately, then hopefully together after the dogs master the skills: first, a behavior modification program called the Relaxation Protocol by Karen Overall (see article about it here). Second get some good crates for each of them and teach each dog at least a couple of levels of Susan Garrett’s Crate Games (DVD available). Again, your in-person trainer would coach you through the steps so you get skilled at the training part. Both these programs teach the dog to focus and relax and build a structure for your dogs and you to interact with lots of positive success. The crate games also give dogs a safe personal space where they can be comfortable and confident as the other dog is getting attention.
In home aggression is a very tough and slow to change situation, but I’ve seen very good results in from each of these programs; doing them in parallel, even just for a few minutes of each every day, can get things moving in a better direction.
Jess
@Andrew Abshier: As I stated, every criticism I’ve seen has grossly misrepresented what Cesar does. And the trainers you mention, like all trainers, 1) have their own axe to grind, and 2) are probably basing their judgment on what the owners reported to them, not on what they actually saw go down. How do you know, getting this third hand, that the blame lies with Cesar? I’ve watched most of the shows available by a range of different trainers, as well as trying various methods, and so far Cesar’s approach seems to be the most effective at creating a well-balanced dog. No trainer is 100 perfect, of course, but if you have a critique of Cesar’s methods that is actually grounded in the reality of what he does, I would be happy to check it out.
sab
@Lymie: I also feel her pain.
My stepdaughter crated relentlessly. ( I think crates are great.) Hers were abusive. Most well-crated dogs love their crates. Comfort. Safety. Her dogs thought emprisonment.
Our dog would not go into her bedroom crate without brutal stuffing. We tried and stopped halfway.
And two years later she will not go into the basement (where she believes wrongly lurks a dog crate) however much she wants the lure (lure being me. She loves me..She wouldn’t go down with me last tax season because basements terrify her.
Jess
@Andrew Abshier: Read it. Again, not what Cesar does. As the paper states, leadership is not dominance, and what Cesar provides is tools for being a strong leader. He uses touch (not violence) to communicate b/c this is how animals communicate. It’s the same with riding a horse; using your heels or reins to guide the horse is not an act of violence or intimidation.
satby
@GrannyMC: The thing is, (and I love the guy) he doesn’t take aggressive dogs known to attack other dogs. He will take fearful ones acting out of fear, but not aggressive ones.
People, remember TV isn’t real. They can edit video.
glc
I’m pretty sure that is completely wrong, if there is any other option. Before I say anything more I should say I have no professional knowledge, only experience from dealing with a small number of rescue dogs and general reading.
Ideally they should already agree that you are the dominant dog in the pack. If that’s not the case then it might require outside help.
I had one completely psychotic dog that bit me (not snapped, level 2 on a scale of 5, one bite drawing blood on each occasion) the first month and was sane in 6 months, an angel in 12. Vet asked if it was the same dog. Gentleness, boundaries, firmness. Does not always work! But they do need a clear sense of what is expected, and also of their rights. There are a few tricks vets can suggest. In our case keeping the dog on a leash continuously (free to move about) turned out to be calming for him for a month. And of course – this was a single dog, so one could control the environment.
Read once about an Akita owner who said “She challenges me for dominance once a month but after that she’s o.k.”
In a general way I enjoyed “The Dog’s Mind: Understanding Your Dog’s Behavior” but it’s not the sort of thing one reads when looking for answers to concrete problems.
Came across a little guide for Akita owners just now: https://akitarescue.rescuegroups.org/info/file?file=s197m2534.pdf
Could be kind of triggering if you’re having difficulties, but it could offer some perspective on such difficulties. Looks worthwhile to me.
satby
@Jess: enough. You like Milan, lots of professionals don’t. We got it.
Kristine
@prostratedragon:
It’s sheer perfection.
satby
@sab: there’re dogs who’ve been so abused by being kept in crates all the time that they become aggressive to the people trying to crate them.
MomSense
Damn, I am so sorry. I wish I had some good advice for you, but unfortunately my dog is a fucking psychopathic asshole. She tried to kill her best friend and my grand dog when they came in her house. It’s terrifying to see them shift the way they do. It makes me sad because I have to leave her home alone and go to see friends and my son at their places.
She is usually ok in neutral territory. She is fine at her best friend’s house and she is fine when we go on hikes with my granddog. We cannot have other dogs or animals in her territory.
Have you tried drugs? Not kidding. Pharmaceuticals may help.
Jess
@satby: I was responding to Andrew. I’m always happy to learn new info, but so far have not found any useful critiques of Cesar’s methods. If you don’t like him for some made-up reason, fine, but if you have a real reason, I’m open to hearing it.
Doug R
@OzarkHillbilly: I used filtered water on our cats but cats are more sensitive to it. The ammonia trick I read in a dog book. Maybe start with pure water first?
MomSense
@Jess:
It doesn’t work for everyone. We are an experienced bunch of animal devotees here. Please just stop.
satby
@MomSense: he’s like an Elon fanboi
CarolPW
@Doug R: Honestly, the super soaker works a treat. You don’t even have to stand up and chase them if you have it at hand, because it can shoot 20 ft. I used it on the cats (inside) when they got into it. I use it on the current dog (in and out) when she barks inappropriately. Mine has kind of a pump thing to get it to pressure, and after a couple of encounters they react to it the way a burglar would to cocking a shotgun.
Jess
@MomSense:
Me too. Why should I stop asking questions? I’m trying to learn as well as share what has worked for me. I’m not saying others need to follow my way. I’ll stop now, b/c my intention is not to upset you, even though I’m baffled as to why my having a different perspective than you should be so upsetting. That’s how we evolve, right? Anyway, have a nice evening–I’m outta here.
MomSense
@satby:
Ugh.
Andrew Abshier
@JeanneT: You retired? I would send some clients your way if you were still working!
sab
@satby: I love my stepdaughter and she grew up age 4 to 10 in foster care as bad as these dog crates, so I forgive her a lot of dog mistreatment. She is a good mom with a difficult child. I rescue every animal I can from her.
cope
I am a big fan of wide open dog parks populated by multiple dogs. If you have one nearby, maybe you could take both of the boys there and turn them loose to interact with other dogs and each other. Maybe they would bond when dealing with a bunch of strangers.
Disclaimer: I am not speaking from experience of your particular issue, just making a guess based on 60+ years of living intimately with dogs.
The Moar You Know
Sigh. Time for pie.
SW
Vacuum cleaner
Andrew Abshier
@Jess: I posted a link to the Animal Behavior Society’s position paper on dominance based training upthread. I also think what JeanneT wrote (comment 126) is very solid, and none of her suggestions are based on dominance-based training, but on positive-based training. This isn’t “other trainers with axes to grind;” this is about doing what’s best for companion animals. In my opinion, there is NO place for aversion/dominance based training for companion animals. None.
sab
@sab: She was in a foster family where their son in law beat their 5 year old to death while daughter was downstairs watching tv and did nothing to stop it. They also had a big hand in watching the foster kids next door. That is where my step daughter lived from age four to age ten.
sab
@Andrew Abshier: Yes. Outmoded methods.
Drunkenhausfrau
I have had success with Calming treats from Charlottes Web by Stanley Brothers. Hemp extract. I get it at Petco. I realize you probably don’t want to sedate them all the time, but this just induced calm. And might help with other training/support work.
Betsy
@Betty Cracker: When Pete was gone, Badger may have felt in more control of “his” space, and then when Pete came back, it was like a dog from outside the household came in as an intruder. Both dogs now feel like the place is *their* territory, perhaps, and so the understood hierarncy of home dog / interloper has been broken?
If I could think of a way to re-establish Pete as a co-habitant rather than an interloper, maybe it would be to take Badger on a little vacay?? Or take both of them to a new place, where they might not have any sense of territory/you/me, see if they begin to get along there, and then bring them back home together.
sab
@satby: That is my girl.
Atticus Dogsbody
@raven:
In Australia they are not called cattle dogs, they are called Heelers. This is because they are bred to nip cattle, generally at the heel, to keep the cattle moving. They are working dogs with huge amounts of energy and are often not good pets, especially around children.
sab
@Atticus Dogsbody: In America we call a certain color blue tick heeler cattle dogs. The rest are just cattle dogs.
sab
@sab: Needless to say she is wary as hell and often nuts with anger. It has taken twenty years for her to learn to trust my good intentions, and I don’t begrudge her a second. Her world has been terrifying. I only wish she hadn’t passed it on to her dogs.
Another Scott
No expert here. Finding a way to break the dynamic seems to be important. Whether it’s training or drugs or long walks or what, I dunno.
Our Ellie is a 45-pound mutt (3/8 Aussie, 1/8 collie, 1/8 rottweiler) and has some physical issues. She likes people, except when they come to the house or are riding on noisy vehicles. She can be very insistent when she wants to meet other dogs. She’s very protective of the house and has an extremely shrill yeowly bark that is like icepicks in my ears when she gets going. OW! Stop that!!!1
When a delivery person comes to the house, or a kid rides by on a skateboard, or she sees a fox outside, I’ve tried scolding her, yelling NO at her, spraying her with water from a spray bottle. The only thing that works reliably is closing the shades so she can’t see outside. :-/
She is, however, amazingly food-driven. She’s always snuffling around for stuff to eat on walks (and loves acorns and fallen cherries, so she’s feasting now). She loves peanut butter and peanuts and will give full attention when she knows that some is nearby. I need to spend time reinforcing the good behavior we want…
tl;dr – Peanut butter training? I.e. They both get a spoonful when they sit quietly by each other?
Good luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
sab
@satby: That’s our girl. We just dont try to crate her. Otherwise she is a sweetheart.
Ruckus
Bud was a very aggressive cocker spaniel who had to be muzzled and held tight to groom him, which had to be done every 4-6 weeks because his hair grew seemingly 1/2 of an inch a week. None of the groomers in my area would take him back a second time so I had to do it. I also had to be extremely controlling with him when walking him because he’d bite any one, any thing that got near enough. He had to fully understand who was in charge. He was a great companion for me though. I’ve had a number of dogs in my life an everyone of them was different in some way major way, from aggressive to single digit IQ.
sab
@satby: I got it. I think he is instinctively very good with animals, but tv executives made him get way ahead of his abilities.
Having an adopted kid from foster care, I would never entrust an animal or non-verbal child to non-parental supervised care for any purpose whatever. And not much more to verbal kids, but with the huge parameters of if I piss these people off will they block our adoption.
glc
@Another Scott: On the barking … I noticed a suggestion in a training book that you focus on something you’d like the dog to do instead of barking and train that thoroughly, then once it’s trained use that command when they start barking.
Basically the argument was that you can’t teach “not barking” but you can teach “do this.” (Sit, or whatever.) Presumably it needs to be very well established to be effective.
pieceofpeace
I’m sorry for this tough physical and emotional state for all of you. Sounds miserable right now. You’ll figure this out. And may that be soon.
KateP
@CarolPW: I agree. I just used a spray bottle of water. Shocked my suddenly aggressive dog (due to jealousy of new rescue) and ended the fight immediately. It got to the point that he only had to see the spray bottle and he backed down.
JeanneT
@Andrew Abshier: Nice of you to say so! I actually can go for months and months now without lapsing into giving advice, but certain words trigger my teacher behaviors!!
Leslie
I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this, Betty. There have been some good suggestions, and I hope you can find a solution.
prn
Look up Tricia McConnell, she’s a behaviorist, has many booklets out about various dog problems, and also has a blog. She used to have a dog training/behavioral therapy business years ago, and we consulted with her a few times. She’s absolutely awesome, and is considered one of the top dog experts in the US, maybe the world (She does not agree with Milan’s methods, BTW)
See https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/aggression-towards-other-dogs/
Dave
This sounds crazy but if one dog came back from surgery could’ve an antibiotic induced microbiome change causing a marked change in smell. Believe it or not Vets have a pill for that
dp
Betty, I’m so sorry to hear about this. I wish I had something to offer to help. All I can share is our experience.
We’ve been a multiple dog family forever (and big dogs at that). Years ago, our male German Shepherd would occasionally get after our male basset-mix rescue, and we’d have to intervene to prevent bloodshed. No rhyme or reason to it, just once every six months or so they’d get after it.
Fast forward, we have male and female Catahoula Leopard Dog littermates, and again, once every six months or so they go after each other. Since the male outweighs the female by about 35 pounds (he’s freaking enormous), he gets her pinned quickly, and they don’t bite one another, so we don’t get involved beyond vigorous scolding.
Other than that, we’ve not had the issue arise. Good luck on working it out.
Ken_L
@Jess: I don’t hate Cesar Millan, I just think he’s full of it. His advice is based on nothing but personal opinion. When I got to the bit about never letting your dog go through a doorway ahead of you or s/he’ll never respect you again, I laughed and closed the page.
AnnaN
Am so sorry to hear this. My advice would be to use a trainer that deals in fear or aggressive behaviors in dogs. My sister had this problems with her two canine kiddos and was given some good advice to work with. It took a couple of months, but it did work out in the end. I wish you all the best. <3
GrannyMC
@satby: @satby:
This absolutely NOT true. You apparently haven’t seen this video of Luke & Jason testing Roscoe and Chance. The other two dogs that came with them, Nevaeh and Molly, were also trying to kill each other.
Casey
I went through this exact hell two times. I had two wolf dog rescue puppy brothers, a situation famous for dominance tussles and fights. I ended up with dire wolf size/looking teddy bears.
‘’the most pertinent case was when I brought home one from surgery after being gone for days. The formerly inseparable pair hated each other. I put a fence covered With blankets between them, and they growled and faught every time they saw each other. I was fortunate to have some of the best and experienced breed specific trainers in the world to help, As well as a veterinary behaviorist. The solution in that case was to walk them many times a day at a safe distance. It relieved tension and brought routine, as well as creating pack behavior. I was something they were jealous about. My coming home with one, actually the less dominant one, threatened the dominant one. The submissive one felt vulnerable in bandages (similar to a cone), and felt the need to protect himself. They had suddenly become a threat to each other for those simple reasons. After a two weeks of 6 times a day walks (two people to keep them just far apart enough) I was eventually able to drop the leashes and there was a tense truce. Calmly ignoring them helped quite a bit, however much I wanted to hug them, I had to provide equal and non-exciting attention. It went back to normal within days.
Future surgeries were handled by walking together at a safe distance, with me holding the leash of the more dominant one. I use tricks like unloading them from the cars Half a block away from home, so they return to their territory together. Minor actions prevented the kind of heartbreaking behavior that the first surgery resulted in.
I should have learned from an earlier experience when they were teenagers. They had begun to fight horribly in the morning as I took them outside to relieve themselves. I thought this was the famous wolf dog territory agression in coming to adulthood. Turns out I had been holding onto their collars, and we three side-by-side would crash through the door jams rushing to the backyard. I also showered them with affection. The horrific looking fights magically never caused any injuries. This was a very important factor. It turns out they were fighting over me, and doorways and collars had significant meaning in establishing pecking orders. Pecking orders were never very clear, As different things affected who was in charge, like food or physical attention, or favorite sleep spots. The solution at that point was to reduce affection, Never hold collars, and not allow log jams. It worked miracles in days. Again, The “owner” was the problem. Their humans are their most important resource, food, protection, affection, leadership.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this, But your situation seems so similar to mine that I hope what I have related to you could be helpful.
Lady WereBear
I agree that it’s a Pack Leader issue, especially Casey’s account of his wolf brothers.
I had both cats and dogs and my circus dog learned 25 tricks. But I wound up settling on cats instead of both, because dogs do need that strong sense of command. That is responsible for them feeling like a pack. Dogs really need to know there’s a grown up in the room.
Cats think they are the grown up in the room, each and every one of them. So cooperation, drawing on their colony and social feelings, comes to the fore.
I am a natural “spoil them to pieces” kind of pet person. And it turns out this works much better for cats than it does for dogs. The invisible constant power struggle I sensed with my malamute mix (one incredible dog!) led me to the more egalitarian ways of cats.
Betty Cracker
I’ve read every comment and appreciate them all. There’s some excellent advice here, and lots to think about. Thanks to all who responded!
dpm
@Betty Cracker: here’s tons of support for your positive training approach, and reboots idea seems good to me—but I would hold off on it for awhile. What I would suggest is that you find a way to completely isolate the dogs from each other, using crates/gates/fences/rooms. Keep them completely separated for at least 24 hours and if you can stand it, 3-4 days might be better. Then start reintroducing them VERY slowly. For example, if you can move one dogs crate to where they can hear each other but not see each other, do that at meal times so that hearing the other dog = dinner. Do that for a few days. If the dogs are too excited to eat, the crates dog needs to be further away.
I would also swap their bedding every other night so that they are smelling each other while sleeping—and I would give a chew or favorite toy in the crate with the freshly swapped bedding. After a few days of that, if the dogs are eating where they can hear each other, you can step up to where they can see each other.
the idea is to go very very slowly, build up positive associations, and back up if either dog gets even a little bit agitated. You can also google videos of people teaching “look at that”, which is a game that teaches your dog that if it sees something it’s not sure about/threatened by then it can look at you and get rewarded for seeing it. It is amazing for decreasing reactivity. Once you have the dogs able to see each other and eat, you could step up to reboots suggestion of side by side walls outside. You could also take one dog on leash past where the other dog is crated/gated with a treat every time you go past.
clicker training where every time you see the one dog look at the other dog you click and treat could be another tool.
look for a trainer who uses clickers and positive reinforcement methods.
For what it’s worth I am not a dog trainer, but I have listened to about 1000 hours of positive dog training podcasts 😂. Also I have an extremely reactive and fearful rescue who is now very brave and confident and all it took was about a hundred pounds of hotdogs and two years. 😂
dpm
@JeanneT: yes, yes, yes! Karen Overall is great. Leslie McDevitt, Hannah Brannigan, Ken Ramirez, Karen Pryor. 100% positive training methods have much higher success rates than anything that involves aversive—think about if you were absolutely livid about something. Would someone shouting in your face or hitting you with water change the way you felt about the person you were shouting at? Those things might work to interrupt the immediate fight, but @Betty Cracker wants these dogs to LIVE TOGETHER HAPPILY, not just stop the current fight.
Crate games are so helpful! We’ve worked so hard with our dog and really reduced his reactivity (and got him to ignore the stray kitten that lives here now), but sometimes it’s easiest on him and us to just manage a situation with the crate, and it’s great that he likes to be in there (and spends plenty of time just chilling in there of his own choice)
Orchid Moon
Betty, I am sorry you are having to go through this. I had nothing to offer in the way of a possible solution, but I spoke to our daughter-in-law last night about 2 dogs she had that did this. She worked with non-profit animal behaviorists from the SPCA. These professionals were vetted, and they worked with lots of behavioral problems. You might try a society like this if there is one in your area. Turns out it was an owner problem with a realignment required to change pack dynamics to top dog becoming the owner, not one of the dogs. Hope this might help you.