Question for those who follow soccer: has a referee EVER changed their mind after being lobbied by a player for a call they didn’t like? Like ever? Or is the aim just to “work the ref” for future advantageous calls?
— Dan Skinner (@danielrskinner) December 4, 2022
This is a great question.
What is the point of players coming to the referee and visibly demonstrating their disagreement if there is not going to be a change in the immediate call?
It has been a while since I’ve had a whistle on the field. I think I changed my mind and call less than half a dozen times over 3,000+ games due to player provided information at the point of a foul. And in each instance, it was the player who I thought had been fouled who had provided me the information that they weren’t fouled and I had misread a jostle and mud patch for a trip or a push.
Excluding those rare cases, what is the point?
There are a couple of points of the fouled player communicating with the referee.
The biggest one is to establish where the line of foul/no foul is for the day. Perhaps there was a similar play 8 minutes ago that wasn’t called. Getting feedback from the referee to the player that the previous instance was acknowledged but not called due to advantage, or that there was a meaningful difference in the two plays helps players calibrate their expectations for the rest of the match. Good players typically can match their aggression and risk taking behaviors to the local foul threshold pretty well so good players want to know where that threshold is.
Players want the referee to be consistent. Ideally the referee is consistent across and within matches, but within match consistency is critical. Player feedback tells the referee where players think the line of consistency lies. Sure, Red will want the line to be slightly tilted in their direction and Green will want it tilted towards them too, but the feedback helps the referee calibrate and maintain consistency.
Finally, soccer, and all other games are emotional. As a referee who is charged to facilitate a safe, fair game within the laws of the game, I would rather have a player get pissed at me, say their piece and then get back to playing aggressively but smartly than be frustrated and taking that frustration out on someone’s knee. Sure, at that point, I am punitive and pulling a red card, but the game is damaged if that was an avoidable incident and both teams are disappointed and pissed off because one team is playing down and the other team just had one of their knee’s wrecked.
I was a pretty good referee. I was lucky enough to work with some exceptional referees including several who are currently at the World Cup. They were almost as good at being a psychologist as they were athletes. Managing player-referee and referee-player interactions both after a foul and non-fouls is a key skill that when done well, dramatically increases the probability that a highly competitive game will be a good exhibition of skill, talent and luck that requires minimal referee intervention for the dumb-shit fouls that could have been managed out.
Alison Rose
I don’t necessarily mind players arguing a bit, looking for clarification or whatever. It’s part of the game. What I don’t like is when they won’t shut up and you can see the ref basically telling them “Call’s made, it’s done, step off” and the player keeps getting in their face. Then you just start looking like an asshole, as well as putting yourself at risk. Say your piece, but be mature about it.
David Anderson
@Alison Rose: Completely agreed. Question, clarification and a look of “that is what it is..” is fine.
More than that we start thinking about dissent
Leslie
Very interesting. Thanks for these insights.
Amir Khalid
Self-control is up to the player. “Working” the ref to make them favour your side is unethical and unsporting. If a player decides to get in a referee’s face over a decision, they get a yellow card — no ifs, ands, or buts. If the player takes out their frustration on an opponent’s ankle, that’s a straight red. I’ve seen entire teams crowd the ref to dispute a decision. It may be understandable in the moment, but it’s always wrong. If it happens at this World Cup with a woman official, it’s going to be especially ugly.
trollhattan
My favorites are the coach/bench getting a yellow and parents getting a red. Man, yoot soccer brings out the worst in adults.
JoyceH
Side question – is soccer and the World Cup getting more coverage in the US media than it used to? It seems like it to me.
West of the Rockies
I’m constantly amazed by how diversely-talented and multifaceted this community is. David Anderson: Ph.D.-pursuing high-tier ⚽️ ref.
Omnes Omnibus
I have always liked the rugby system where only the captains can speak to the ref. The captain then communicates to their players.
Alison Rose
@JoyceH: I don’t think it’s any more than it got for the last couple of WCs, though maybe slightly. What I want to see is this level of coverage continue once the Cup is over, but…that feels like a losing battle in this country.
Alison Rose
@Omnes Omnibus: That is a good system. I appreciate it when the captain will come over and get between the ref and the player, at least.
Amir Khalid
@Omnes Omnibus:
Another thing I like about rugby is that the referee often wears a microphone so that decisions get explained to all present.
OverTwistWillie
@JoyceH:
It has been FIFAs most valuable TV contract for a while now.
TV ratings are up 30% with the US participating.
So FOX and Telemundo were pushing team USA hard.
Ruckus
As the person the refs worked for and answered to (in a far different sport) I like the soccer system. The refs are the power/answer person and if they are good the sport really benefits. It’s absolute crap if the refs are anything less. And the refs are/can be a pivotal part of the overall game, although they should not be part of the actual competition. And once again if they are good the sport and players really benefit. However there is always going to be some tension between the ref-player relationship. Smart/good players recognize that refs are absolutely required in most every type of sport, and appreciate good refs and also recognize that the refs are not actually on their side and can and will on occasion rule against them. And sometimes they will be wrong, just as players can be wrong. The world does not stop spinning because of an occasional bad call and no one wants bad calls but we are all human and it does happen.
JoyceH
@Alison Rose: Maybe I’m just watching more news than I used to, because the WC coverage takes up a huge swath of an hour’s news budget. I guess I don’t mind, not that I follow soccer, but I also don’t follow football, and soccer at least isn’t so prone to causing player brain damage. I’d kind of like to see American football just fade away and soccer could be a good substitute for people to obsess over.
JML
@David Anderson: I would actually like refs at the highest levels to pull the card for dissent a little more often. While it’s not good for the game for a player to get sent off for getting a 2nd yellow when the first was for dissent…it’s also bad for the game when there’s lengthy and frequent interruptions because players won’t stop arguing.
I was impressed with the ref in the US/Iran game who managed to keep the game under control without needing his cards all the time, though.
Alison Rose
@JoyceH: Brain damage, not so much, but yikes, I’ve seen some gruesome injuries on the pitch. Seeing someone’s leg get broken isn’t a sight you soon forget……….
But I agree that it would be great for it to overtake gridiron football, as pie-in-the-sky as that might be. I will note that soccer matches have often gotten better TV ratings than basketball games. Always makes me laugh when basketball fans call soccer “boring” – yeah, your game where active play rarely lasts for more than ten seconds and is followed by anywhere from 20 seconds to a full minute or more of people milling around is super exciting!!!! :P
OverTwistWillie
@JoyceH:
USA participation increases domestic ratings 30%, so FOX and Telemundo were incentivized to pump team USA.
It is FIFAs biggest national TV contract for a while now.
Kent
@Alison Rose: I’ve coached youth soccer for about 15 years and have done a bit of refereeing during that time. But nothing like you or David Anderson have done. I personally like it when the ref whistles “play on” and lets the other team proceed instead listening to the whining. Sure, stand there and argue with the ref all you want while the game proceeds without you.
Last year my wife and I bought season tickets to the UW Huskies football and I was frankly somewhat shocked at how long all the video replays take when you are sitting in the stands. You don’t feel it nearly as much when you are sitting in your living room. It just kills the game for in-person viewing. During the TV coverage you get to see instant replays from every angle and get the expert commentary and frame-by-frame analysis about whether it was a foul, catch, fumble, out of bounds, etc. But when you are sitting in the stadium it is all just endless dead time.
I would hate to see soccer go down that road. What makes for good TV doesn’t necessarily make for good in-person fan experience.
Ruckus
@JoyceH:
I’ve known a few NFL players (also not the sport I worked in) and yes most of them have had some sort of brain injury. In the two players I’ve talked to the most that to them wasn’t the worst issue. Joint destruction/replacement was. People who participate in really any professional sport get injured. OK maybe not professional chess…. In the sport I worked in, people have died, both during and from injuries. Humans at the level of most professional sports play at the limit, because that’s the point. And at whatever limit, whatever sport there are risks. Once again fewer risks at professional chess….
Ruckus
@Alison Rose:
I think a lot of people like basketball because we played it in school. Some of us were at quite a disadvantage because of say our height, but could score higher than many others so it evened out. It’s fun to play a sport well that your physical attributes sort of say you shouldn’t be able to and yet you can. But the point is that many kids in the US played basketball sometimes starting in elementary school. At least the boys did.
Kent
@Ruckus: I’ve also known a number of ex-NFL players. One was a next door neighbor in TX, I taught with one who was a coach and teacher at my school, and I have had several who were parents of students of mine.
My own completely unscientific observation is that they struggled a lot more with the blown knees and other chronic orthopedic issues than things like CTE. So 40 year old men limping around and unable to run. That sort of thing. Football is brutal on the body, not just the head
It is the same reason you see old farmers, ranchers, bricklayers, etc. limping around at age 60.
Alison Rose
@Kent:
I’ve never been a ref for anything except cat fights.
Kent
@Alison Rose: Ah, I misread your post and thought you were speaking as a ref, not a fan.
Alison Rose
@Ruckus: True, but like 90% of little kids play soccer, too. That’s part of why the sport is demeaned here–people see it is as the “little kids and adult women” sport.
trollhattan
But enough about golf. :-)
Seattle’s biggest event when I was growing up, was the unlimited hydroplane race on Lake Washington. In one season a half-dozen drivers were killed, in a sport where there were maybe twenty drivers, in total. Among my childhood ephemera I had a hunk of plywood plucked off the lake, from a boat that disintegrated in front of me, in a luckily non-injury incident.
We in general have a hard time comprehending and managing risk. That sport finally got serious about designing safety into the boats, but it took a LOT of deaths before that occurred. Yet today, numerous field, court and rink sports steal lives in less-dramatic ways.
Recently listened to a sad BBC interview with a Team England rugby player who does not remember winning the World Cup (IIRC he was team captain) due to his accumulated brain injuries. A cautionary tale.
Alison Rose
@Kent: Haha, no, just a viewer. I’m trying to imagine me at 5 feet tall refereeing any game beyond 6-year-olds :P
trollhattan
@Alison Rose: Soccer is THE kid sport here and girls stick with it more than boys, most of whom instead go on to one of the Big Three. The US produces more women soccer players than the rest of the world, combined, in large part because of Title IX but also because we have high school sports and many (most?) countries do not.
trollhattan
@Alison Rose: When my kid was soccering she also took the league referee course, got certified and began refereeing daisy pickers. She did not stick with it (again, parents) but I can’t describe how great it was to watch her, in her too-large referee kit, wading in a sea of tiny kids following the ball like cats after a laser pointer. Adorable.
Kent
I pay most attention at the youth and HS level. My observation is that soccer is most definitely trending upwards at the HS level and football is declining.
The other wildcard is Lacrosse which is growing in leaps and bounds at the youth level. Whether it ever reaches the level of say the MLS I doubt. Because it isn’t very international. But in terms of a participation sport it is growing fast. You see HS lacrosse leagues popping up even in the heart of Texas which is formerly football central.
We have turned football into a gladiatorial sport rather than a participation sport. Whether that is sustainable forever? Who knows. But less and less kids are playing it. And around here the urban high schools with higher levels of immigrant kids are having a hard time even fielding teams.
Kent
When I was a youth coach I would ban any parents who harassed any youth refs. And I would send out weekly reminder emails to all the parents before every game warning them that I was going to do so and asking them to police themselves since in youth soccer the fans/parents are always on the opposite side of the field as the coaches/teams.
As the years passed by it became increasingly common for us to show up to games and have no referees because too many kids (and adults) got tired of the bullshit and gave it up and we would just have to referee our own games. Usually give coaches/assistant coaches the whistle and give parents flags to work the sidelines.
It is even happening now in HS football. My school has had games rescheduled for Wed or Thurs or even Sat afternoon because there were no longer enough referees to cover all the Friday night games simultaneously.
JoyceH
@Kent:
That’s good in my opinion. Pro football needs college football players, which needs high school football players. And a lot fewer parents are willing for their kids to play football. I think football will sort of wither on the vine, though it might take a generation. But sports DO lose popularity. There is still boxing and dog racing, but nowhere near the level and popular interest there was for those sports fifty or more years ago.
Kent
@JoyceH: And football isn’t like baseball where they can just snatch up an endless pool of players from Latin America.
JML
Youth leagues are really struggling to draw referees. I’ve considered picking up the whistle again, but I’m not sure I could deal with nonsense. As bad as the abuse was when I reffed, it’s even worse now. But with inflation piling up and salaries in my industry still stagnating, I could use the extra cash.
Victor Matheson
@JoyceH: There are 2 total greyhound tracks remaining in the entire US (both in WV – come on Cole, get your act together!)
The top sports in the 1930s would have included boxing and horse racing, neither of which come close now. That being said, we are unlikely to see American football disappear any time soon.
Victor Matheson
Former pro referee here (MLS and USL) and current college ref in my waning years.
I changed a call this year in D1 college based on players complaining. I had called what looked to me like an intentional pass back to the keeper. The entire defense goes crazy and the whole offense kind of looks kind of sheepish to get the free kick. I stop the clock, go over to my AR and ask him if he thought It was a weak call. He said he was surprised by the whistle so I tell him to make arm waving and pointing like he is overruling me/providing new information. I blow the whistle and point the other way and say my assistant had a better angle on the play. Everyone seems satisfied and we play on.
That’s a once a season sort of thing, however.