Grateful for the long-overdue release of Brittney Griner today from Russian custody. Kudos to @POTUS and his administration for the difficult diplomatic work involved to make it happen. We’re looking forward to having Brittney back home. https://t.co/G5yKliRoxd
— Barack Obama (@BarackObama) December 8, 2022
The statement from the family of Paul Whelan are all class, grace under fire. Total respect.
The family of Paul Whelan, a businessman and former Marine imprisoned in Russia on suspicion of spying, said they were told by the Biden administration in advance that he would not be part of the prisoner swap Thursday that allowed the release of American basketball star Brittney Griner.
Whelan’s brother, David Whelan, said in a statement that while he can “literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays,” the inability to also bring Whelan home remains difficult for the family to process.
“That early warning meant that our family has been able to mentally prepare for what is now a public disappointment for us. And a catastrophe for Paul,” David Whelan said. “I do not know if he is aware yet, although he will surely learn from Russian media.”
Whelan has been jailed in Russia since December 2018 on charges of espionage, which he and the U.S. government has denied. He was sentenced in 2020 to 16 years in jail. During his arrest, he was working as the head of global security for an auto parts supplier in Michigan.
David Whelan said gaining the release of Griner, who was detained in February at a Moscow airport after Russian authorities said they found vape canisters with cannabis oil in her luggage, was the “right decision” rather than “waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
“It is so important to me that it is clear that we do not begrudge Ms. Griner her freedom,” David Whelan said. “As I have often remarked, Brittney’s and Paul’s cases were never really intertwined. It has always been a strong possibility that one might be freed without the other.”
A senior U.S. official told NBC News that the U.S. government had sought to have both Griner and Whelan released as part of a swap with the Kremlin, which wanted the return of Viktor Bout, a Russian arms dealer who has served 11 years of a 25-year sentence in the U.S. But the official said Russia has treated Whelan differently because he is an accused spy, and that the Kremlin gave the White House the choice of either Griner or Whelan — or none.
Whelan’s Russian lawyer, Vladimir Zherebenkov, also said Thursday that the deal was an exchange of “one to one,” and that choosing Griner appeared “more humane” because she is a woman and an Olympic champion, while Whelan was in the military and it is “easier for him to be in custody.”
Zherebenkov said negotiations remain underway for Whelan, and that he could be freed in an exchange with Russia in the next couple of months. It’s unclear what he is basing that on, and the White House did not immediately comment on whether that would happen.
Amid questions as to why both Whelan and Griner could not be released together, President Joe Biden said at the White House on Thursday that “we have not forgotten about Paul Whelan” and that negotiations would continue to set him free.
Open thread.
WaterGirl
Sophie’s Choice.
Alison Rose
Thank God. I wish this had happened a long time ago, but I understand that this kind of thing is very delicate and takes time. I hope she’ll have all the care and support she needs once she gets home. I can’t begin to imagine the trauma this has left her with. And hopefully they will be able to get Whalen released too.
SiubhanDuinne
Total respect, too, to the Biden administration for having the courtesy to give the Whelan family a little advance notice, so they wouldn’t be caught off guard by a reporter’s shouted question, or even just learning about it from the media. Nicely and compassionately handled.
Jerry
Especially considering that we are bankrolling Ukraine’s defense efforts against Russia.
dr. bloor
@WaterGirl: I doubt it took Biden more that twelve seconds to make the decision. Griner’s name recognition and press made her the easy choice.
Besides, I’m sure we have another career terrorist on ice we can swap for Whelan.
Jerry
It’s also refreshing that Biden isn’t publicly demanding an thank you from Griner’s family like the former guy did
Josie
@dr. bloor: You might do well to consider the quote from Teddy Roosevelt:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena…”
Cameron
@dr. bloor: It certainly shouldn’t have taken very long. Given the choice between the release of a U.S. citizen and the release of nobody, Biden did what a U.S. President is supposed to do.
WaterGirl
@dr. bloor: Easy?
It would be awful to tell the family of either one that they are not coming home. And to bear the responsibility. We are lucky to have Biden.
Omnes Omnibus
@dr. bloor: Saving the life an American citizen at the price of a washed up arms dealer? You wouldn’t even consider it?
ian
@Cameron:
DavidPaul Whelan is also a U.S. citizen.It can’t have been easy to chose, but I am glad that one of our political prisoners in Russia is coming home. Now the tough part- finding something to exchange to get Whelan back. I have faith that the Biden Administration can think of something.
Math Guy
This is what government for the people looks like, as opposed to government for the people in power.
Scout211
The official statement to the press this morning was that, no, the USA doesn’t have any Russian spies in our custody. The Russian government is asking for the impossible.
But I don’t believe that any more than you do. That statement (hopefully) is just another aspect of the ongoing negotiation for Whelan’s release.
I am just so happy and so relieved that Brittney Griner is coming home and that Whelan has not been forgotten.
It’s a good day.
ETA: added quote
WaterGirl
@Cameron:
I thought the article said it was ONLY ONE of them, or neither. Biden had to choose between the two of them. Unless I read the story completely wrong?
Cameron
@ian: I’m not forgetting him, and I certainly hope the U.S. can get him back. The problem seems to be that the Russians’ demands for him are very different. Plus they probably were extra shitty about him because they figured they’d get better PR from releasing her, not that I think they get or deserve good PR in any event.
Cameron
@WaterGirl: Russia’s demands for Whelan were different, at least according to his family.
ian
@Cameron: I misread your comment, my apologies. Yeah. the Russians will probably ask for a lot of unreasonable things for Whelan. The PR factor I think we can ignore, anyone who falls for Russian PR already thinks they are great and we are terrible.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
dr. bloor
@Omnes Omnibus: This came up in the other thread. What’s the evidence for people arguing that Bout is “washed up” or that the world of promoting slaughter on all continents has passed him by? His travel might be restricted, but he’ll be back to work for Putin by Christmas. Russia just got one of their made guys back. He’s not getting sidelined.
dr. bloor
@WaterGirl: Oh, I don’t doubt the phone call was difficult. But the decision itself? If you think there was a lot of handwringing over who they’d better get back for giving up an arms dealer, I have a bridge to sell you.
Scout211
So there were some back door negotiations going on in lots of diplomatic arenas. Hmmmm. Link
Carlo Graziani
Well, Norway is currently holding a GRU colonel who was part of their illegals program, and posing as a Brazilian academic. One could imagine the US “buying” him from Norway in exchange for some other intelligence or military capability. Then there’d be something that the Russians value to trade in exchange for Whelan. In fact, that would probably make them want to make a deal in a big hurry, because the longer that Russian intelligence officer is in Western hands, the more likely he is to reveal valuable information. Having a real spy to trade them for a trumped-up-charge spy like Whelan would completely change the balance of advantage in the negotiations.
WaterGirl
@Carlo Graziani: Interesting thought.
WaterGirl
@ian: From the quote up top:
They were not asking for more for Whelan. At least not according to the article.
Omnes Omnibus
@dr. bloor: He has been out of the arms business for over a decade. Do you really think his connections are all still ready and available at the same phone numbers as before?
Ken
Hmm, interesting point. Obviously someone in Russia wanted him back, but there are surely people who consider him an embarrassment, a competitor, or a liability.
oatler
@Carlo Graziani:
The whole deal is so complicated it needs a pundit map with pins and yarn.
Carlo Graziani
@Omnes Omnibus: Certainly his suppliers will have trouble filling his orders, whatever else may happen. And he’s going to have some substantial marketing problems, given the performance of Russian weapons in Ukraine in 2022.
Jeffro
@SiubhanDuinne:
And smart, too, to give the RWNJs several hours to step on their own johnsons before the Whelan family statement was released.
MattF
I’m happy Griner is free and boggled that anyone would oppose freeing her. The creepiness of the guy she was traded for is worth noting, and, as mentioned, he’s now in more danger than ever before, which is a good thing.
Geo Wilcox
Griner rescue is fine but what about Mark Fogel? Busted for using medical marijuana.
the antibob
As the father of a masculine presenting lesbian daughter, I can attest that BG’s incarceration had significance to multiple communities- beyond her status as an Olympian and top-tier athlete. Attempts to define the issue as “professional athlete pothead” and ignore the violent anti-LGBT and misogynistic undertones of the imprisonment are disingenuous at best, as demonstrated by the vitriol of the online commentary surrounding her release (beyond these walls of course). At any rate, great to have BG coming home!
UncleEbeneezer
Can we just offer Tulsi for Whelan? She seems to think she is imprisoned by the Democratic Party/Establishment…
WaterGirl
@Geo Wilcox: I know. I would never travel to Russia. Seems way too risky. Even if you do nothing wrong they can say that you did.
WaterGirl
@UncleEbeneezer: We could even offer Russia a choice of any of our Russian-owned Senators or Representatives. Let’s see how much they like Russia after Russia says “red rover, red rover, let Kevin come over.”
Jackie
@Cameron:
Repeated from dead thread.
Per Andrea Mitchell on Morning Joe:
”The big problem with Whelan, Mitchell said, is the specific nature of the espionage charges Russia convicted him on, which are much more serious than Griner’s charges for drug use.
“The Russians were demanding that a Russian spy be turned over in addition to Viktor Bout, the notorious arms dealer, and the U.S. position is they don’t have any Russian spies in captivity to turn over,” said Mitchell. “Initially, as you may recall, the Russians were demanding that a man, a spy in German captivity — assassin, actually — had to be turned over, and U.S. said, we can’t ask the Germans to turn someone over. So they said they had nothing to offer and the Russians were demanding that if Whelan was going to get out, they had to get someone labeled a spy. And Whelan is not a spy according to him, his family, and the U.S. government.”
More at the link.
https://www.rawstory.com/paul-whelan/
cain
@dr. bloor:
I’m sure the Ukrainian military will find themselves getting a high value military person that they can offer to trade for Whelan.
Jay C
Having to make the decision on just who to swap (and AFAIK, the Russians were making the deal (and decision) as hard as possible) could not have been an easy one for President Biden: but then again, Presidenting isn’t easy*; and sometimes you have to take the half-a-loaf you can; however sour it might be.
The RW froth-fest over this is pretty telling: their first reactions to the news of the exchange have been to hysterically attack President Biden and his Admin: either sneering attacks on Brittney Griner (“America-hating lowlife”), griping about the “international terrorist” we had to swap for her**; grumping about Paul Whelan (not the the Admin had forgotten about him – note POTUS’s call-out); or some toxic stew of all-of-the above. Feh.
* For a real President, that is: not a LARPing fool like the last one.
**And just who did they think the Russians were going to demand in exchange for Britney Griner? A car thief? A shoplifter??
cain
@Jackie: Perhaps we could give them Gosar?
Cheryl from Maryland
OT, but as many on this site disparage No Labels, here’s an article (warning Politico) on how awful they are to staff and how awful they are on sexual harassment – https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/07/no-labels-unity-presidential-ticket-centrist-group-2024-00072712.
Elizabelle
@dr. bloor: that’s really sour. Situations like this are a horrible predicament. Would you be happier a year from now, with Ms Griner dead in the interim?
I am willing to believe that Biden and his administration did the best they could.
I don’t like that they’re getting back an arms dealer, but that is the deal.
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose: OT, I’m not going to make it to the store today, but it sounds as if it won’t be there yet anyway. I’ll look tomorrow and let WaterGirl know. I tried googling when it would be on newsstands, but I couldn’t find anything. If any BJers know when the Time Zelenskyy issue will be on newsstands, please let me know.
hilts
Let’s not forget about Marc Fogel, a teacher arrested in Moscow with medical marijuana in his luggage.
We’d need to get him back as well!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/07/28/marc-fogel-teacher-russia-prison/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marc-fogel-russia-prison/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61849579
The Moar You Know
@Geo Wilcox: When will Americans traveling abroad figure out that our laws DO NOT APPLY TO OTHER NATIONS? Medical marijuana. My god. It’s a fucking hardcore felony in Russia to have or consume any cannabis products whatsoever. As is the case for most of Europe, by the way. Most of the world for that matter.
Griner was a fucking idiot and this doof is even dumber. They both deserved to go to jail and they should count themselves lucky that release is even in the cards for them
ETA: if you wanna smoke up there are four countries in which one can do so without immediately going to prison and parts of the United States (I wouldn’t recommend toking up in Texas) are one of the four.
Brachiator
@SiubhanDuinne:
Excellent point.
Geminid
@the antibob: People with axes to grind are happy to portray Mr. Whelan as a victim of some nefarious act of affirmative action.They’ll pretend to care about Whelan, even the ones who did not even know his name before today.
WaterGirl
@The Moar You Know: Do you really think people deserve to rot in a Russian jail because they were foolish? Because they didn’t have common sense?
edit: You are a very harsh grader! Some people are book smart, some are street smart, some are neither.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
not a doubt in my mind that Russian intel targeted Griner as a ploy targeting the pathologies of the American right.
Jackie
@cain: Why stop there? Sweeten the pot and add Marjorie 😁
I bet Kevin would concur.
Bex
@cain: And throw in Greene, Gaetz and Gym J.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: You’re so wonderful, thank you. Yeah, I assume it might not actually be out until next week maybe?
The Moar You Know
@WaterGirl: I am a very strict grader, it’s true.
Yes. To answer your question, yes. I mean, the mind boggles. I get being stupid, but to bring marijuana or any other sort of drug into a country hostile to your own is a level of stupidity I cannot fathom. The Russians have laws. They are pretty harsh. You should respect them while you are there, just as we ask people coming to our country to respect ours. This is not rocket science.
Hell, if any of these people had gone and hauled their vape cartridges into Malaysia or Singapore, they’d stand an decent chance of going to the gallows.
They will get out. I’m fine with that. I’m even fine with trading high-value spies for them. But that’s a product in pretty finite supply and there may not be someone to trade for (as is the case with Fogel at the moment) and then yes, you are going to break rocks in a Russian labor camp for a while. Possibly a long while
And that’s the “find out” of the “fuck around and find out”.
schrodingers_cat
@The Moar You Know: Some clueless Americans behave like deer do in habitats where there are no apex predators even when they visit hostile countries like Russia. Its like their sense of self preservation has become too rusty
This is not to excuse Russian shenanigans, but some self awareness and introspection is necessary too.
Wyatt Salamanca
@Bex:
Also too, Lauren Boebert.
trollhattan
@dr. bloor: Somewhere, there’s a Rolodex to dust off and make a few calls. Many of those old relationships will still exist.
geg6
@The Moar You Know:
I don’t completely disagree with your opinion on the stupidity on their actions. It was totally stupid to travel with anything illegal, regardless of what the state laws of your American residence allow. It’s just plain dumb.
However, once they are there in the Russian prison system, we have to try to get them out, regardless of how stupid they are. Especially BG, as her race and sexual orientation put her in special jeopardy there.
We should be trying to get them all out. I assume that Biden, being the compassionate man that he has shown he is, is doing that. This is the one he could get today and I’m fine with it. She’s going to need a lot support to get right with the trauma she has already suffered and I’m not about to get up on a high horse or condemn her to a Russian prison for her stupidity.
brantl
@WaterGirl: In all fairness, it was pretty dumb. She’s high visibility, and she gave them a prosecutable crime, on a platter.
Mai Naem mobile
@cain: give them Rand Paul, Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs. After Katie Hobbs becomes governor so she can appoint RINOs in their place. Not sure if the time table would work out with the speaker election and Hobbs being inaugurated.
The Moar You Know
@schrodingers_cat: Americans have no sense of self-preservation or respect for the idea that other nations have laws. None. I’ve spent my entire life 30 miles from the Mexican border and have gone there a lot. The vast majority of Americans who go there are going there to “party”, treat it as a law-free zone, and as a result there are a LOT of Americans down in the La Mesa prison, serving years-long sentences, for doing inexcusably stupid shit.
You always see them on videos demanding the Mexican police respect their rights. It would be funny if it the consequences weren’t so tragic.
scav
Have to admit, the Anne Sacoolas case also springs to mind as an instance of an American behaving as though a foreign country’s rules (even really really unarguable ones) just don’t apply to their not to be inconvenienced selves.
Mai Naem mobile
@trollhattan: he got arrested in Thailand in ’08. He just didn’t get convicted till 2011. Pretty sure that means he hasn’t been doing any arms dealing for over 14 years. You don’t think his pals have moved on to other suppliers? You don’t think technology has moved on? You don’t think he’s going to have some kind of learning curve/readjustment from prison?
cain
@The Moar You Know: It’s the fucking death penalty in singapore!
MisterForkbeard
@The Moar You Know: Though with a country like Russia, it’s very worth asking if these people actually DID have medical marijuana. It’s not like Russia is above hostage taking for no reason.
Barbara
I definitely think Griner should have left her stash at home, however, I also think that her treatment, especially her sentence, was intentionally harsh so that she could be made a bargaining chip to get people like convicted arms’ dealers back in the Russian fold. I remember how many comments in various forums thought Otto Warmbier should have known better — maybe so; that still doesn’t lessen the injustice of his treatment.
schrodingers_cat
@MisterForkbeard: Good point.
PAM Dirac
@Mai Naem mobile:
House seats are vacant until a special election is held. The Virginia congressman who just died won’t be replaced before the new congress convenes, so that is one less D for the speaker vote.
The Moar You Know
@MisterForkbeard: this is why I read the Fogel story before posting. He and his wife are open about it: they did. He just thought he would get lucky.
As to Griner I do not know.
But given the current state of relations between the two nations, I wouldn’t go near Russia for all the money in the world right now. They’re looking for an excuse to grab anyone they can.
cain
@geg6: I think that’s happening – but imagine if she wasn’t a basketball star and well known..
So we all need to keep in mind that we are guests in other countries and as they love to say here – being ignorant of the law is not an excuse. Of course, I’ll probably feel different if I’m the one caught – but it’s best to stay the hell away from using any kind of recreational drugs in other countries or even other states.
Also, if you really want your mind blown, you can go to jail and executed if you bring in poppy into Saudia Arabia – yeah, so don’t break that poppy seed cake or cupake with you when you go there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Richie Aprile and Feech LaManna both that they could step right back into place when they got out. Junior thought they could team up. Tony Soprano had other ideas.
Someone said earlier her team is owned by one of Putin’s billionaire cronies. I imagine she thought she was protected by that. I wonder how many times she, and teammates, had traveled with whatever it was.
WaterGirl
@brantl: I would say it’s more that she was entitled, thought she was untouchable because she’s a star and because she got away with that kind of stuff when she traveled with her handler.
dr. bloor
@Mai Naem mobile: Viktor Bout’s net worth was estimated to be at about $8 Billion at the time of his arrest. He’s going to have to hand most of what’s left over to Putin in exchange for his freedom, but the notion that he’s some washed-up freelancer who is being sent into the desert really doesn’t hold water.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
/raises hand/
Darkrose
@The Moar You Know: I really love the way everyone assumes that the Russian police would never plant evidence to entrap a high-profile American who just happened to be a Black lesbian. It’s not like cops have ever planted drugs on anyone before.
And even if Griner, who’s been playing for the Ekaterinburg team for years, had been stupid or careless and brought weed to Russia, that totally justifies being put into a prison camp where the best thing you can say is that the guards might not torture animals in front of inmates at that one.
zhena gogolia
@Darkrose: The terms of engagement in Russia changed drastically overnight. A lot of people were caught flatfooted by the new reality.
Darkrose
@trollhattan: If he’s calling his old contacts, it’s to see if they can sell him some weapons that are less than 40 years old.
cain
@Darkrose: I did feel like in this case that maybe the police planted evidence.
All the more reason not to spend any time vacationing in Russia.
Sister Golden Bear
@The Moar You Know: Assumes that the Russians weren’t lying in either case.
scav
A lot of people are assuming discussion of a general point (the rules — even foreign ones! — apply to Americans) is a definitive final statement in a specific case where of course that are additional factors and context to consider before making an individual decision. Which unfortunately reenforces the impression that Americanness necessarily trumps consequences.
Darkrose
@zhena gogolia: Wasn’t she arrested prior to the invasion of Ukraine?
It’s certainly possible. It’s also possible that the Russian justice system is equally, if not more fucked up than the one in the US. Cops get caught planting guns and drugs on people in this country, and people plead out to crimes they haven’t committed because their court-appointed lawyers tell them it’ll be easier. We all know this, but people are suddenly willing to assume that the Russian police are completely above board here.
And again: even if Griner did do something stupid, what exactly is the point in harping on that, or worse, saying flat-out that she deserved to be imprisoned in inhumane conditions for years? This “well she should have known better/stupid Americans deserve what they get” is gross and ghoulish.
zhena gogolia
@Darkrose: I see it was Feb. 17. Part of the run-up.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Yup. A couple of years ago, when my son went to an academic thing in Moscow, he was super-cautious, and we were still concerned until he’d left. Now, there’s no way.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: No way.
I have to admit, I haven’t been there since 2000. Putler had just come in. I somehow never felt like going again — I’d bring my friends here instead. Much nicer.
JML
Stuff like this is complicated. There’s a lot of people who have been bashing the Biden administration on the regular for not getting BG out who still don’t know Whelan’s name, and now that she’s out they’ll forget all about anyone from the US held in Russian prisons on BS charges. Particularly now with Russia actively at war with Ukraine the international diplomacy gets more complex and the reality is it can be very difficult to get the other country to move unless they actually get something they want.
Putin’s Russia doesn’t care about what the rest of the international community thinks of them right now and isn’t going to make a trade for PR reasons. The intervention of the United Arab Emirates is interesting, because they clearly are trying to set themselves up as a power broker and conduit between anyone and the Russians (and probably the Chinese too). Who knows what influence they will have in the future, but it’s a little concerning to have to route diplomatic activity liek this through them to get something done.
(americans definitely need to be smarter when traveling abroad. you have to take travel advisories seriously. you can’t presume that being american will get you out of trouble. You have to always ask yourself if the risk is worth it when going into an authoritarian regime)
dr. bloor
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I wonder what kind of education/advisement the WNBA offers to its players going overseas in the off-season. If they can’t pay them, seems like it’s the least they could do.
dr. bloor
@cain: We’ll find out when she gets back. Equally as likely that she carried it all the time over there, FSB knew exactly what and how much she had, and just tucked that info away until they needed a dupe.
lowtechcyclist
@zhena gogolia: We adopted our son from Russia. Three trips to Samara via Moscow in a two-month period in early 2009.
We always wanted to take the kiddo back and show him where he came from, and perhaps see St. Petersburg which we’ve never been to. Now we know that may not happen for many years, if ever.
Captain C
@Ken:
PutiNews: “Viktor Bout was today found dead in the middle of a remote lake in northeastern Siberia, having slipped in the shower, fallen out a window, bounced on every [nonexistent] stair down, and shot himself 10 times with a revolver before bouncing along for thousands of miles to his final resting place. When asked to comment, Dear Leader Putin said ‘the existence of
the*[sic] Ukraine must have caused him to do this. One more reason to get rid of that place which never existed in the first place.'”*Since it was a (made up) direct quote, I figured I should strive for accuracy and thus Putin would say the insulting version using ‘the’, because he’s an asshole. I crossed it out because fuck Putin and all the rest who would deny Ukraine’s nationhood, independence, and right to live life untroubled by kleptocratic, sadistic, homicidal neighbors.
zhena gogolia
@lowtechcyclist: It all pales compared to what’s happening to Ukraine, but the effects of this madness are extensive and tragic.
Captain C
@cain:
Or TFG himself?!
JoyceH
@Darkrose:
THANK you! And can people please stop talking about Griner’s ‘stash’, like it was a sandwich baggie full of leafy greens? It was a VAPE CARTRIDGE. Those things are smaller than a thumb drive. Can you guarantee that you have nothing in your travel bag smaller than a thumb drive, left over from a previous trip? A half roll of Life Savers would be bigger than a vape cartridge. She said she didn’t realize it was in there. Are you so sure she was lying?
And come ON! Do you really think this prescribed oil was the genuine reason the Russians detained and tried her? Or is it more likely that she was that valuable trade item, an American? And not only an American, but a woman, a black woman, and a lesbian. The Russians had been trying for years to get this washed up arms dealer back, and she just happened to come through customs at the right time.
MisterForkbeard
@Captain C: I’ve always appreciated Mystery Men‘s take on this: “My father fell down an elevator shaft. Onto some bullets.”
Soprano2
@The Moar You Know: In the 1980’s when my choir went to England, France, Germany and the Netherlands, our choir director was blunt about this – “If you get caught with drugs, I can’t help you, and the penalties are severe” is exactly what he said to us.
ETA – when I toured the airport the TSA guy said you’d be surprised how many people have a gun of some kind in their carry-on bag. You haven’t been able to take a gun on an airplane for over 50 years at least, and yet still lots of people try to do it.
Soprano2
@schrodingers_cat: I bet that’s mostly the white ones, especially if they have much money. They’ve lived in a world where most of the rules don’t normally apply to them.
The Moar You Know
@JoyceH: 100%, but I travel internationally frequently. Sometimes to some countries where the possession of any kind of drugs is a death penalty offense. I take them at their word.
I don’t think she was lying but it makes no difference if she was lying or not; she broke their laws, their laws and enforcement of same are brutal.
I might add that if she’d been pulled over with even one vape cartridge, empty, in Texas or Georgia she’d have gotten pretty much the same sentence. And they would have taken her claims of ignorance as seriously as Russia did, i.e. not at all.
jonas
@WaterGirl: From what I understand the Russians were willing to exchange the arms dealer guy for Griner, but not Whelan — they have some other set of demands for him that the US currently isn’t willing/able to meet.
So of course they took the deal. At least one of them is back home safe and sound.
jonas
@Darkrose: Any Russian caught with a similar amount of contraband would have been fined or done some minor jail time. This is what her Russian lawyers were arguing the whole time, to no avail. Nearly a decade of hard labor in a Gulag camp was simply insane, even by Russian standards and they were doing precisely to put pressure on the Americans to give them a big fish in exchange. Viktor Bout is a horrible criminal, but as people were pointing out in the thread on this this morning, he’s bound to be largely washed up by now and is unlikely — particularly given the global sanctions on Russia’s military and financial industries — to be able to return to his former life as a major arms dealer.
Joseph Patrick Lurker
@JoyceH:
100% correct.
Biden has done many great things during his presidency, but this deal does not belong on that list.
Britney Griner was a dummy and should have known better.
WaterGirl
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: For doing something foolish, she should do 9 years of hard labor? Not that she would make it 9 years as she was going to be an obvious target to be killed.
WaterGirl
@Joseph Patrick Lurker: Yeah, and when I was 20 I would drive 25 miles and go to the rock quarry by myself and go swimming. Not tell anyone I was going, I would go totally on my own.
That was foolish.
So that day when the 5 guys I did not know showed up, and it was a bad situation, and I was trying to figure out how I could get out of there I realized that I wasn’t safe… I suppose I would have deserved it if I hadn’t gotten out of there safely… because I was foolish?
By your logic i did something foolish so if I had been raped I would have deserved it?????
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: I wouldn’t bother arguing the point with this dude. Based on his previous comments, he seems to show up with the sole purpose of pissing in everybody’s Cheerios.
WaterGirl
@jonas: Different articles presented it differently.
The first article I read said that Biden was offered a choice – either one of them or zero of them could be released – and it was up to Biden to choose which of the two to trade.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca:
He is not pissing in my Cheerios. He is showing himself to be someone I could never respect and wouldn’t want to have anything to do with in real life or on the blog
Just trying to point out how stupid the things he is saying are.
WaterGirl
@The Moar You Know: Or maybe they fucking planted it on her, and she didn’t do anything wrong. Except make a terrible choice to play for a team owned by a Russian oligarch. Or to travel there on her own.
None of that is worthy of 9 years of hard labor, and likely death and abuse for every day before she died.
JoyceH
What’s weird is that all elected Republicans seem to have decided that this is a deal that they need to criticize – because Biden is giving Putin a ‘win’. Wait a minute – isn’t this the same guys who think Ukraine needs to make a deal and cede land to Russia to end the war, despite that giving Putin a ‘win’? To say nothing of the fact that they’re expecting Ukraine (which is currently WINNING) to end the war by giving away hundreds of square miles and hundreds of thousands of their own citizens to be imprisoned, raped, tortured and murdered by their Russian overlords. Which of those two deals is more of a Win for Putin? Does not compute.
Burnspbesq
@dr. bloor:
Pure speculation on your part. You might at least be honest enough to acknowledge that.
BretH
FY Fox News:
“White House not going to apologize for releasing ‘Merchant of Death’ as critics rail against swap“
dr. bloor
@Burnspbesq: As are all the apologias that Bout is a washed up has- been who will be dead or selling nesting dolls to tourists in Moscow. I look forward to your scolding them as well.
BenCisco 🇺🇸🎖️🖥️♦️
I’m thrilled that she is on her way home.
Some of the chatter I’ve heard while out and about (traveling today for work), and apparently from some quarters here…I will say I’m not surprised and leave it at that.
Skepticat
@Barbara: I believe you’re spot on.
As are you, @The Moar You Know. As a part-time expat, I do wish Americans were less arrogant and more aware that other countries have their own laws to which we become subject and must respect and follow once we’re there.
And more right than any was the Biden admin for contacting the Whelan family with a heads-up and an explanation before the news was released. I was very, very touched and impressed by the grace and intelligence of the Whelan family’s response.
Lumpy
For all the MAGA chuds complaining that Biden didn’t get Paul Whelan out too… “Art of the Deal” author Trump had four years to make a deal with his BFF Putin, and he didn’t care enough to make it happen.
Annie
@WaterGirl:
or just starved to death or dead of exposure in the Russian penal colony.
karen marie
I’ve got mixed feelings about Whelan. I’m not sure how much sympathy I’ve got for someone who was dishonorably discharged from the Army for attempting to steal $10,000. I’m also puzzled how a guy with that background got a job as “head of security” with a large auto supplies dealer. Are thieves typically hired for such jobs?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Lumpy: I’ll give you three guesses which well-known addle-pate (addled by cocaine? Many people are saying that…) Plott is responding to here
WaterGirl
@Annie: Whatever the details, this would not have been “server your 9 years and then out”.
Tehanu
That’s real class. I sincerely hope his brother gets exchanged soon.