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You are here: Home / Jan 6: Hearings / Jan 6 Hearing (Business Meeting) – Day 10 at 1 pm (LIVE)

Jan 6 Hearing (Business Meeting) – Day 10 at 1 pm (LIVE)

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This post is in: ,

The final public meeting of the January 6 House Select Committee begins at 1 pm Eastern.

In case you missed this fabulous clip of a Schumer & Pelosi interview in Anne Laurie’s morning post, you’ve got to watch it while we wait.  Full of fun, especially Nancy’s final comment at the end of the 3-minute clip.  The whole thing is so fun.

Tick tock, motherfuckers!  Lock him up!  Lock them up!  All of them.

Open thread.

Update: C-SPAN link if you want to see what’s happening in the chambers before the official hearing starts

Reader Interactions

156Comments

  3. 3.

    trollhattan

    Now I want to have lunch with Nancy and Chuck. Especially now that my dream of breakfast with Mel and Carl can never be fulfilled.

  5. 5.

    Alison Rose

    Thank you for reposting that clip, I hadn’t seen it earlier. It’s a delight. God, I love that photo of her standing at the conference table pointing at him. Right after that, she’d temporarily made it her FB cover photo, which gave me such joy.

  7. 7.

    PaulWartenberg

    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    TELL ME!
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred to DOJ for incitement yet?
    is he referred…

  9. 9.

    sdhays

    Apparently Elmu lost his stupid-ass poll to remain CEO of Twitter, so he claims he’s going to step down. I suspect that there has been an intervention of some sort over at SpaceX and Tesla (and the horrible performance of the Tesla stock price particularly in the last few days) that has clarified that if he wants to keep playing with his toy, he’s going to lose a lot of his on-paper wealth and control of, at least, Tesla and maybe SpaceX too if things continue going south.

    I suspect that Twitter is hemorrhaging so much money right now, as his on-paper wealth craters and banks are slower to take his calls, the buzz is wearing off and he’s getting bored/annoyed. Better to dump the problem on someone else. But he’s still the owner – he’s made it explicitly clear this weekend that he considers it his personal toy – so I’m skeptical a sane(ish) CEO can fix the flaming dumpster fire of dog poop his Twittishness has set off and will undoubtedly sustain because he can’t stop himself.

  13. 13.

    John Revolta

    @sdhays: Some have speculated that he wasn’t in Qatar just to watch the football. Saudis, who have $12 billion in the business may have told him to get somebody in there who knows what he’s doing. This “poll” may have been his way to get out and still save face.

  16. 16.

    AM in NC

    @Qrop Non Sequitur: I’m guessing his natural color is more of a sickly gray, so nice contrast with the orange.  And you don’t get pancake makeup in the pokey

     

    ETA: or what Alison Rose said!

  18. 18.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @WaterGirl: I know someone who was asked that question in a bar and simply deadpanned, “Hardwood floor.”  I was not the person who asked the question.   I have more couth.

  19. 19.

    Steeplejack

    I have read that the committee was going to concentrate its final conclusions on Trump, possibly steered by Liz Cheney to avoid damaging the Republican Party too much. Chairman Thompson started off talking about accountability. I hope the committee’s released documentation includes all of the no doubt heinous stuff they unearthed about the seditious A-holes in Congress. The problem is not just Trump. It’s all of them.

  21. 21.

    AM in NC

    Love to see Cheney call out the Confederates by lauding her ancestor from Gym Jordan’s Ohio who marched to Atlanta with the US Army.  “Can’t believe I’m still having to fight your confederate shit, MFers!”

    Word, Liz.  And I say this as a Southerner but NOT a fucking dead-ender.

  22. 22.

    AM in NC

    @Steeplejack:  I’m worried about this as well.  It wasn’t just Trump.  It was a significant part of the GOP, members of Congress very much included, and I don’t want Liz’s partisan loyalties to stop us from rooting out the rot everywhere.

     

    She has been very good, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t want her to buckle at the finish line because, Republican.

  24. 24.

    jonas

    @sdhays: Who’s going to want to take over that shitshow if Musk is still the de facto owner and continues to shitpost or retweet QAnon ramblings all day?

  27. 27.

    M31

    the contrast between all these Republican ‘former lawyer to Trump’, ‘former aide’,  fucking Ivanka etc. and the nice black woman election worker who was targeted by Trump was pretty amazing

  30. 30.

    JWR

    This montage of all the pressure campaigns T***p was putting on the various parties is not only mesmerizing, but chilling as all f*ck.

  31. 31.

    Anonymous At Work

    Cheney’s opening statement makes me think that they are going to give criminal referrals for Contempt of Congress on various members of Congress.  No one can stab in the back or shoot in the face like a Cheney.

  32. 32.

    Steeplejack

    That video gave me waves of retro rage. Slippery, mealy-mouthed Patsy Baloney. Bill Barr with his strong Eric Cartman CYA energy. Ugh.

  33. 33.

    Steeplejack

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard Hope Hicks speak before. Voice not what I would have thought. (Why would I have had any sort of expectation?!)

  34. 34.

    Anonymous At Work

    @AM in NC: Trump was the first ex-President but not the first national election loser to engage in violence.  South Carolina, followed by others, protested President Lincoln’s election by seceding and instigating violence.

  37. 37.

    M31

    Kinzinger has always bugged me, he’s just a little too smug and the way he emphasizes words like “Justice” is off-putting.

    I get that I’m not his intended audience, though.

  38. 38.

    Layer8Problem

    Me: Look at those men behind Kinzinger.
    Partner: Yeah, who are they?
    Me: Minions. I think the one on the right is the one that kills people.

  39. 39.

    CaseyL

    @Anonymous At Work:

    @Elizabelle:

    The issue, if any such criminal referrals are made, is that the GOP will flat out ignore them.

    If the DOJ brings charges, the GOP will flat out ignore them.

    The only way to remove the traitorous slime from Congress will be if officers of the court or law enforcement show up with handcuffs and drag them out.

  40. 40.

    MazeDancer

    Same amount of time between Washington resigning his commission and Yankee Cheney great-great grand dad marching down Pennsylvania Avenue and span between WWII and today.

    We are such a young country. And nothing is far away.

    Great photo of the troop review.

    Also, never ceases to amaze the Civil War had photo coverage.

  43. 43.

    Elizabelle

    Stephanie Murphy is retiring from Congress.

    Makes me sad that several committee members will not return in 2023.

  44. 44.

    CaseyL

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    They won’t show up for any hearings.

    If they file anything, it will be refusals to acknowledge the charges, saying they’re illegitimate, or the DOJ is illegitimate. Any filing will have to go through procedure, which will drag the issue out for months.

    They won’t voluntarily surrender to authorities if ordered to do so.

    They will put the DOJ in the position of having to have them removed or captured. (Many may simply hide or flee).

    And the House leadership will back them up, as will the RNC, as will the rest of the GOP organization(s).

  45. 45.

    JWR

    I love that Zoe Lofgren kept referring to him as the “ex-president”. Pointedly.

    Now, I hope my keyboard doesn’t go out again. Weird, but all’s well.

  52. 52.

    Layer8Problem

    @trollhattan:  The guy on the right in the picture:  “Dear god, he’s doing it!”

    The guy on the left, Agent Smith:  “Yeah, told you to put on the special glasses.”

  53. 53.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Pete Strzok (former FBI) on Twitter:

    “Appears Jan 6 Cmtee may have a former DOD official’s testimony that Mike Flynn told him “something’s about to happen” and that DOD needed “to have the military take over the election and redo the election.” Flynn repeatedly took the 5th, refusing to answer questions about it.”

  55. 55.

    Buckethead

    Are the referrals being posted anywhere while this is taking place? Raskin keeps saying “others” should be charged in addition to Trump and Eastman, wondering how many “R Congressmen” are on that list.

  58. 58.

    cain

    @AM in NC:

    I was flabbergasted to learn on Mastodon that Brazil has some kind of festival around the confederacy based on a bunch of losers who fled the U.S. during the Civil War and ended up in Brazil. They all celebrating southern thing and making the argument that it was about the Tyranny. The city that was holding it is planning on banning the festival.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-confederate-festival-at-brazils-civil-war-colony-faces-ban-2022-8

    Can’t believe there is another country whose citizen is celebrating traitors.

  59. 59.

    Elizabelle

    Interesting.  Speaking of the members who refused to testify before the J6 Committee.

    Sanctions to the House Ethics Committee requested for 4 Congresscritters. Names not disclosed.

  60. 60.

    M31

    1) looks like a lot of criming has been going on

    2) time to lock up some crimers

    also,

    3) Tick tock, motherfuckers

  62. 62.

    CaseyL

    Raskin’s noting that Federal and Constitutional law both require that any official who aided and abetted, assisted or encouraged, rebellion against the US must be barred from holding public office is, I think, a Great Big Hint that DOJ needs to go after some Congresscritters.

    I stand by what I said:  Getting people like MTG, Scott Perry, etc., thrown out of Congress will be a very heavy lift by DOJ, because none of those traitorous assholes will go willingly.  But from what Raskin said, it looks like the Select Committee will at least put targets on the traitors’ backs.

  64. 64.

    Starfish

    @WaterGirl:

    Congress issues criminal referrals of Trump, Eastman, and others to DOJ in relation to January 6th:

    1. Trump, Eastman and others for impeding official proceedings (regarding obstructing the electoral college count)

    2. Trump, Eastman and others for Conspiracy to Defraud the United States

    3. Trump and others, for making materially false statements (regarding fake electors)

    4. Trump for inciting, assisting and aiding an insurrection

    — @Pwnallthethings

  65. 65.

    Elizabelle

    @CaseyL:   Yes.  I got the impression that the Committee would like to see several politicians, and an ex-President, barred from ever being able to stand for office again.

    A lot can come out in the coming months.

    It’s sad the GOP flipped control of the House, but at least it’s by a rather thin margin.

  66. 66.

    Starfish

    Also, four Reps are going to be referred to the house ethics committee for not responding to subpoenas. Their names were not specified in the spoken bits.

  70. 70.

    Starfish

    FYI, while the majority will change in the 118th, the Ethics Committee always has equal numbers of members from each party. The Ethics Committee doesn’t _have_ to pursue an investigation, but refusing to look into members refusing to honor subpoenas from other members could leave the current majority without a way to enforce any subpoenas it might want to issue to the soon-to-be minority members.

    — @GovTrack.us

  71. 71.

    Steeplejack

    Raskin says the Jan 6 committee will refer four GOP congressmen—who he does not name—to House Ethics Committee for not complying with subpoenas.

    In May, they subpoenaed Kevin McCarthy, Scott Perry, Jim Jordan, Andy Biggs, and Mo Brooks, who is retiring.

    — Sam Brodey (@sambrodey) December 19, 2022

  72. 72.

    Renie

    McCarthy, Perry, Jordan and Biggs are the four.  But since GOP gets the House in January, doubt anything will happen

  75. 75.

    The Moar You Know

    One of the texts was from none other than Marjorie Taylor Greene.

    @Starfish: She’s not smart, but looks like she might have been just smart enough.

  76. 76.

    JWR

    @Steeplejack: Yep, they named 4 of those 5 creeps.

    From CBS:

    In addition to urging the Justice Department to prosecute Trump and his allies, the select committee also referred at least four Republican House members to the House Ethics Committee for failure to comply with subpoenas. Those lawmakers are House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Reps. Jim Jordan of Ohio, Scott Perry of Pennsylvania and Andy Biggs of Arizona.

    No MTG (yet)?! Sad.

  77. 77.

    Anonymous At Work

    The big one is going after fake electors scheme.  There are a LOT of names involved there, that encompasses a LOT of political infrastructure for Republicans in those states.
    Electorally, this also will extend the issue of 2020 election into the 2024 primaries.  MAGAts will run primary campaigns on freeing the imprisoned insurrectionists and fake electors.

  78. 78.

    Starfish

    @Starfish: From page 87 of the report:

    On May 12, 2022, the Select Committee subpoenaed several members of Congress—including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, Representative Jim Jordan, Representative Scott Perry, and Representative Andy Biggs—to obtain information related to the Committee’s investigation.

  80. 80.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Starfish: What can the Ethics Committee *do* on its own without the full House taking a vote?  It’ll never kick any of the four out, even if their official response is literally to moon the Committee in a hearing.

  81. 81.

    Brachiator

    @cain:

    I was flabbergasted to learn on Mastodon that Brazil has some kind of festival around the confederacy based on a bunch of losers who fled the U.S. during the Civil War and ended up in Brazil. They all celebrating southern thing and making the argument that it was about the Tyranny. The city that was holding it is planning on banning the festival.

    These people didn’t just “end up” in Brazil. They left the US to live in a country which still had slavery.

    They set up their own communities to keep memory of the old traditions alive.

    They became doubly irrelevant after Brazil abolished slavery, but remnants of old customs and memories persist.

  82. 82.

    Starfish

    @Anonymous At Work: Can it say that they cannot hold committee seats, especially high level ones? Could it make it harder for McCarthy to be majority leader?

    I don’t know if any of the above can happen, but it would be nice.

  87. 87.

    Starfish

    @CaseyL: Did you see what I linked here?

    The ethics committee is balanced. If they don’t do anything about congress members blowing off subpoenas, then the “true criminals” like Hunter Biden and AOC can also tell them they are not showing up for stuff because they have a nail appointment or whatever.

  89. 89.

    eversor

    @Brachiator:

    Abolished slavery is doing a lot of work here.  Plenty of Latin American countries still have horrid wages and conditions regarding farming and resource extraction.  It’s not slavery anymore, but it’s still beyond brutal and of the same vision of the old south.  Let’s not kid ourselves that the system stopped.  It just morphed.  Check out sulfur mines for some horrors.

    Of note for the OP’s videos it sort of strikes and infuriates me that they (the press) put Schumer and Pelosi in a diner situation of all things.  Largely because they’ve spent all their time schelpping their asses out to bumbfuck diners as if it’s some font of wisdom.  There are multiple, famous, historic, diners in DC (and of course all our other coastal cities) that host working and middle class folk and veterans 24/7 they can walk to and ask people what they think.  Leaving out Ben’s Chili Bowl (which is an actual diner) because they aren’t going to do that, too ethnic I guess and oddly too elite (how the fuck that applies here I’m not sure but it is what it is) there are two great options.  The Diner in Adams Morgan which is 24/7, non stop packed, and is working class through upper class in who’s there.  Then there is Bob & Edith’s which is an actual historic restaurant and started smack in Arlington by all the military bases and is very much a place full of the working class, military, and veterans that’s on the national list of restaurants.

    It drives me nuts whenever I see crap like that and then remember that “diners” are some small town thing.  Because anybody who lives in any “East Coast elitist” city knows they are all over the damn place and a lot of them have been in business serving up a greasy spoon to the hungry for decades.  They also know the elite down frown on them.  Everyone likes a greasy spoon!  Even the health food freaks are going to be there because sometimes at 2am you just want breakfast food health be damned and cup of coffee.

    What is with diners?  And if you can haul your ass out to some hollowed out disaster zone in Indiana to ask them why the fuck don’t you ask the people at the diner you go to in the city you live in that is packed 24/7 and full of life and regulars!

  90. 90.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @CaseyL:

    They won’t voluntarily surrender to authorities if ordered to do so.

    A court of law and a congressional hearing are very, very different, especially if they’re the defendant.  “Nuh-uh, not gonna” does not work really well in court.  If you manage to find a point where the court can’t technically force you, like Alex Jones’s heel-dragging on turning over materials for discovery, you’re just making things worse for later – as the staggering amounts of money Jones is now on the hook for make clear.

  91. 91.

    tobie

    A propos of nothing: I can’t believe John Eastman is 62 years old. Adam Schiff is 62 years old. You’d think Schiff is two decades younger than the insurrectionist.

  92. 92.

    geg6

    @eversor:

    I’ve been to The Diner in Adams Morgan a couple of times.  Once when I was staying at the Washington Hilton for a conference and once while visiting a friend who had moved to DC. Good food and very much a diner like the ones here in here in Western PA.

  94. 94.

    JWR

    @Starfish: Sometimes I love how our government’s rules are written to avoid letting jackasses pull dumbass little stunts without there being any pushback.

  95. 95.

    CaseyL

    @Frankensteinbeck: Alex Jones isn’t a MOC.  DOJ is notoriously risk-averse when it comes to MOCs, knowing that physically capturing them will cause a shitstorm.

    Mind you, Jack Smith is now in charge of the J6 investigation.  He may not have the same accommodating nature, which is why Garland turned the whole thing over to him.

  98. 98.

    Martin

    @Starfish: I don’t think any of those things can happen. What the ethics committee can do is make a recommendation for criminal referral which goes to the full house for a vote. It can also vote to expel a member (⅔ vote).

    None of these things will happen.

  100. 100.

    Mike G

    All the fraudulent R “alternative electors” who conveniently signed the docs on camera — you’re fucked.

  101. 101.

    tobie

    @CaseyL: I thought one of the reasons Garland chose to turn the investigation over to a Special Counsel when he did is that a Special Counsel stands at greater remove from Congress. The office may also have a more stable funding stream. The Spec Counsel was announced once it was clear that the GOP would take control of the House. Maybe I’m being too accommodating…my timeline for the 1/6 investigation was always 2 years and we’re not there yet.

  102. 102.

    gene108

    @eversor:

    What is with diners? And if you can haul your ass out to some hollowed out disaster zone in Indiana to ask them why the fuck don’t you ask the people at the diner you go to in the city you live in that is packed 24/7 and full of life and regulars!

    Had the same thought when all the Cletus safaris began, in 2017. NYC has diners all over the place. I’d have loved it, if reporters walked down the block to talk to disappointed Hillary voters.

  104. 104.

    eversor

    @geg6:

     

    Yerp good food, cheap, and lots of it.  Open 24/7.  If you’re there late at night you’ll see white shoe lawyers eating next to “non documented” day workers, service staff from hotels, IT pros, military, and Hill staffers.  Also press assholes.  Why not ask people there what they think?

    As for PA… they’ll never visit a diner in Phily.  Even though it’s chock full of them.

  105. 105.

    Martin

    @CaseyL: I remember Abscam, and there was huge pushback from that, despite getting 7 convictions.

    But I want to take issue to a few assertions, even what I’ve heard here on MSNBC. In government, there is a huge distinction when you have multiple branches of government acting on something. Yes, the referral isn’t really binding, but you have the legislative and executive branch both looking at wrongdoing and it makes it a LOT harder for DOJ to not press forward. I mean, the whole point of the system is that we are right to be skeptical of single branch actions but shouldn’t question when all branches agree to a conclusion – which is why the election process works the way it does. And that’s especially true when you have factions within government denying the very facts of the case and continuing to call for violence.

    I mean, I think it’s going to be very hard for Jack Smith to not push forward here.

  108. 108.

    Starfish

    @Martin: Ok, when Republicans go to choose who they will put on the ethics committee, they probably can’t choose people who are under investigation or people who would shiv Kevin McCarthy because they want his job.

    They can barely figure out who can be their leader, and they have to figure out who they will put on this committee. 🤣

  109. 109.

    eversor

    @gene108:

    Ever been in a major city dinner after pulling an all night shift (in my case patching servers) slugging coffee with that shit on a shingle (bonus points for those who get it) corned beef hash, hash browns, two bloody marys to take the edge off while things are slammed and it’s all out chaos around but the staff keeps up and people are nice and make space in their booths for complete strangers?  Only to look up at the screen and see them in some place with maybe four people and it’s all empty and they are all “we are here in a diner, to talk to the working people” it’s rage inducing.  Like, da fuck?

    And yeah, NYC has world class diners and historic ones as well.  NYC diner is such a trope it’s in modern art, historic art, and in the damn Spider Man movies.  Wanna see working class?  Find someone who works union construction in NYC.

  110. 110.

    Martin

    @eversor: They’re third places, something that is generally lacking in the US.

    It’s not that diners are unique to small towns, but their role in small towns are somewhat distinct from their role in cities. This is a failure of urban planning in the US being perpetuated as a failure by the media of recognizing the benefit of surveying a third place, and not finding one in urban areas, or even saying ‘hey, we don’t recognize these in cities, we need to not visit any of them since we can’t really balance this’.

    Third places around the world are local – walkable – and aren’t gated by class. So British pubs, cafes in France, etc. When I was in Austria I deliberately sought one of these out – a biergarten – that was out of view of tourists. Watched a World Cup game there with the locals – families, couples on dates, teens, older folks – everyone was there.

    Above rather small towns, zoning doesn’t permit these places to exist in the US. These are critical to maintaining social fabric. Part of the reason why things in the US are so busted. They aren’t completely absent in cities, but they tend to be structured in ways we view as partisan. The black barbershop is a third place, but their opinion doesn’t matter because they are black and therefore partisan. Bars do work this way to some degree (Cheers as a fictional example), but they aren’t broad – you don’t get families there usually. You don’t get young people. They tend to be pretty segregated. They’re very different in the US than in the UK.

  113. 113.

    Jay C

    @Starfish:

    completely disagree: given the (pathetically low) caliber of today’s Republican Congresspersons, stocking a committee with Reps under investigation is probably exactly what they would want to do: it would give them the opportunity (which they will doubtless exploit ruthlessly)  to disparage and dismiss the entire J6 probe as partisan BS trollery. And having the Usual Gang Of Idiots ON the Committee is going to be the best way to demonstrate their contempt for the whole process.

  115. 115.

    geg6

    @Martin:

    How are urban diners not a third place?  I don’t understand this argument.  You can see how they are even in fictional tv like Seinfeld and Sex in the City.  I’ve been to numerous urban diners and they are neighborhood gathering places for the entire cross section of the population of their neighborhoods.  Often the one place where, in a city where you are often anonymous, the waitresses know your order and the flirty old Italian guy may not know your name but knows your face.

  116. 116.

    The Moar You Know

    They’re third places, something that is generally lacking in the US.

    @Martin: Back in the early 00s, Starbucks was hellbent on having every store be a “third place”.  Comfy chairs.  Wi-fi.  Power outlets.  What they missed is that the success of such a thing requires leisure time, and America even then was doing its damndest to become a two-pastime society:  work and sleep.  Fuck raising your kids, reading a book, hanging with your neighbors.  None of those things are adding to this quarter’s productivity numbers.

    Those stores are now closed or redesigned to make sure you don’t spend more than 15 minutes in one, and they’ve largely been replaced by drive-thrus, which is about the most American response to the idea I can imagine.

  118. 118.

    The Moar You Know

    Wow. Had not heard of that.  W.T. ever-loving F.?

    @AM in NC: Latin America has a long and sordid history with the Confederacy, as does Britain, who really doesn’t like to talk about it.

    The reason we have Texas is because American settlers in Mexico were not allowed to keep slaves in Mexican territory, so they simply decided to steal a nice chunk of Mexico and make it a slaver’s paradise.

  119. 119.

    eversor

    @Martin:

    See I don’t buy this for a nano second.  I work for a white shoe level place and make good money as a cleared IT person with close to two decades in military and government fields.   I can walk in the door of a place and say, no give me more and they will.

    I eat at these places.  You have hotel service staff who had a rough night, the day labor contractors just getting started, people in their military uniform showing up because they are on the overnight, people in suits that cost more than I make in a month sitting down to grab some quick food and bolt.  Sports are on, news is on.  It’s not gated.  City officials show up as do people covered in paint and grime.  It’s not some fancy place there are no vegan options and you’d be laughed at if you asked.

    So I don’t buy that city diners are gated by class and yet rural diners are not.  If anything it’s the other way.  If you’re in a large city you have no choice but to cut across class, racial, and other lines it’s not an option.  And once it’s late at night and you are all in there struggling for a cup of power for the next hour and some grease it’s a remarkable equalizer.   You see kids from prom here as well shit faced drunk stumbling in to try and sober up (won’t work).

    Sorry but having grown up as a local here I just don’t buy that there’s some ancient country wisdom housed a barely visited diner that a major cities cross class 24/7 mad house doesn’t have.  The issue is a city is faster to go to tell you to get fucked if you are acting a fool, probably Democrats, mostly minority, and more likely to let you into their booth rather than claim territory.

    As for your theory well Bob & Edith’s is right by FT Myer Henderson Hall and it’s been around for like 50 years.  It’s still there.  It’s a third place.  So is Tastee Diner in Bethesda where you can see multi million a year lawyers sitting in a table next to contractors covered in dry wall dust.  So it does exist in cities and anybody who’s lived in a city knows it’s not just the elite eating sushi and steak while the rest eat McDonalds, we all rub shoulders all the time and manage to make it work!

  121. 121.

    AM in NC

    @The Moar You Know: Is this some of that CRT business people are always talking about?   /s

    Seriously, though, I am a pretty educated person, and the fact that I am apparently completely ignorant of this confederate diaspora history is concerning!

  122. 122.

    eversor

    @geg6:

    This 100%

    If you aren’t walking into your favorite place seeing faces who’s names you don’t know but they are your pack of late night fools I don’t know what to say.  Big city diners are a thing.  I don’t even have to ask or order.  Just shows up.  Though I guess that liver and onions and B&E makes me a snooty fucker but that’s what I get!

  123. 123.

    Ken

    @Elizabelle: It’s sad the GOP flipped control of the House, but at least it’s by a rather thin margin.

    A half-dozen or so GOP representatives unable to vote — if, say, they were under arrest for seditious conspiracy — would give the Democrats control.

  124. 124.

    The Moar You Know

    Seriously, though, I am a pretty educated person, and the fact that I am apparently completely ignorant of this confederate diaspora history is concerning!

    @AM in NC: History does not necessarily get written by the winners but it does get taught by them.

    For example, it was perceived, correctly, that it was in US interests to have Germany on our side post WW2, and to have Americans feel like WW2 was “done with” and Germany was our new best buddy – and that’s why most Americans have no idea that Nazi holdouts kept up a low-level resistance, attacking US soldiers and Germans working for them, all the way up through the early 1960s.  They have their own “Lost Cause”.

    The history of the Confederacy’s involvement with and migration to/through Latin America spans more than a century and is amazing, but you really need to dig to find it.

  127. 127.

    Martin

    @geg6: They can be, but where small towns (I lived in a town small enough that it still had a general store, and no grocery) the diner is a third place because its’ the *only* place for people to go, in cities it’s the opposite – there are too many places for people to go, so those third places need to carve out their own personality and role in the community, and the US just doesn’t have a culture of doing that. I’m not saying they can’t, I’m saying they don’t. You certainly can’t do that in a chain, which dominate most spaces in the US, but the diners in TV media (particularly NYC) aren’t third places because the patrons don’t commingle. That’s the *role* of third places – you form these secondary relationships that you normally wouldn’t – the rich person and the plumber at least know each other from the pub, or barbershop or whatever. They aren’t friends, but they aren’t strangers either. In other communities that have third spaces, they tend to be the most common places to find employment – the rich person needs a property manager, and having thrown dart with the plumber, etc. trusts them and offers a job.

    Generally in diners in NYC (maybe things have changed since I lived there) you didn’t have patrons talking to each other as acquaintances. McDonalds isn’t a third place. It pretty much *can’t* be a third place, because it’s too constrained by the rules of being a franchise and because it’s too easy of a destination for visitors and it designed too much for efficiency. That’s the whole point – that if you drop in to a new place, you’ll feel comfortable walking into a McD and not the local pub, and the McD can handle multiples of customers than the pub can. Third spaces aren’t usually very profitable, so it’s hard to find them holding on for long periods in the US unless they are paired with a public space that can afford to let people loiter for hours. Historically libraries were better rural third spaces than diners. But we’ve gone down a big disinvestment in public spaces path in the US, so they largely don’t exist any more either.

    Sports bars get closer in the US. They are more focused on building a culture and a regular customer base, but the US still puts bars on the illicit side of things. Brewpubs and sports bars do push that line a bit more family friendly, but you can’t go there as a group of teenagers either. They are legally segregate from the community, so they tend to fail to operate that way.

    But typically third places operate outside of car culture. Usually if you have to drive there, it won’t be a third place. And not many places function like that. In small towns you might drive there, but it’s more you can’t go anywhere without going past there, so it’s not like it’s a destination, it’s just where you happen to be.

    People are focusing too much on what a diner does, and not on what role the diner plays in the community. How do people interact with it, and rely on it being a social space? How does it hold disparate parts of the community together? If it’s not holding disparate parts of the community together, it’s not a third place.

  128. 128.

    JWR

    And then there’s Pence, spineless coward that he is, on Fox this morning:

    “Congress has no formal role in Justice Department decisions and they can make recommendations today,” Pence responded, adding the committee has a “partisan taint” that has led to many Americans ignoring the hearings.

    “But when it comes to the Justice Department’s decision about bringing charges in the future, I would hope that they would not bring charges against the former president … As I wrote in my book, I think the president’s actions and words on January 6th were reckless. But I don’t know that it is criminal to take bad advice from lawyers. And so I hope the Justice Department is careful.”

    I, too, agree that something Pence wrote should be punishment enough! /s

  129. 129.

    Sure Lurkalot

    OT.

    Secretary Miguel Cardona

    @SecCardona

    Our work to transform our schools is crucial to creating a strong economic foundation for our country. It’s time to break down the silos between K-12 systems and college, career, and industry preparation programs. This is how we transform education in this country.

    Secretary Cardona certainly has the credentials for the position but holy freaking shit, what is this load of crap? What I read this as is let’s create a delivery system of some ready made pegs for corporations to fill their holes.

    We certainly don’t want industry spending any time or expense training their workforce.  That would be wrong.

  131. 131.

    Martin

    @Frank Wilhoit: Sweet God, Tastee Diner is still there? I wonder what kind of money they’ve turned down for the land?

    ^^^ Why there are so few third places in the US. A lot of them get hoovered up by chains that can better monetize the space.

    I’ll also add that Americans are really well trained to not take care of third places. If the diner is expecting to turn that booth every hour to stay in business, and you want to hang out for 4 hours, are you spending money during that time? Are you increasing your tip based on the opportunity costs to the waitstaff, etc. I’ve left $20 tips in diners because I nursed a cup of coffee for hours waiting for someone to pick me up. US consumers tend to be too transactional on goods and not enough on experiences to help hold these places in business. We are inclined to bankrupt the places we most value.

  133. 133.

    Martin

    @eversor: Right, but you’re also describing a handful of places that serve a few thousand people in a city of a quarter million. That diner in the small town means *everyone* has a third place. How do you find the handful of places in a city that operate this way when they’re really the minority of establishments?

    In the small town you roll into literally the only place to buy food and you’ve found it. How hard is it to find *your* third place. I’d be willing to bet most people who live there couldn’t identify it as one of those places because they’ve never experienced that. They’ve seen it on TV, but they’ve never experienced it themselves.

  136. 136.

    eversor

    @Martin:

    This is bullshit.  As much as “they don’t co mingle there” because Tastee is not only there they got two more places.  Ditto Bob & Edith’s.  The Diner is still here as well.  If anything these places are growing.  So not only are urban diners a thing, they are doing damn well and people do comingle.  There isn’t some voodoo in rural bumfuck that makes it work.  Most diners are in city centers.  As are most people.

  137. 137.

    geg6

    @Martin:

    Bull.  I just described exactly what you are saying.  And I have lived in a city, a small town and a suburb and the city diners function exactly as you describe a third place.  Just like my small town diner did.  Exactly the same but much busier and diverse.  Suburbs aren’t even in the conversation because they are the places where the culture of food tends to revolve around franchises.  From the awful suburb I current reside in, I have to drive to one of the nearby small towns to even find an actual diner.  The ‘burbs are the most socially isolating places in this country.

  138. 138.

    CarolPW

    @Sure Lurkalot: A renewable energy company I worked with, along with several other companies working in the region, funded a wind farm technician program at the local community college. If other industries want the community colleges or trade schools to teach their workers, those educational facilities should be similarly funded by the industries they benefit.

  139. 139.

    geg6

    @Old Dan and Little Ann:

    Not a diner!  An iconic regional family restaurant chain, yes.  Diner, no.

    ETA:  I will concede that most have a small bar section that functions as a sort of mini-diner, with regulars and such.  But still not really a diner.

  140. 140.

    frosty

    @Martin: ​I get your point, and I’d agree that suburbs that are zoned residential and aren’t walkable can’t support third places. I totally agree that cities do. Diners support a neighborhood the same way a rural diner supports a town. The one at the end of my street in Baltimore, for example.
    Now, rural third places. I live in a borough of 3,000 people, about 1/4 pre-WWII, 3/4 suburban. We don’t have a diner. We don’t have a third place. We have a sports bar, pizza place, post office, barber. Nothing where everyone can walk or drive on by and drop in. I don’t know what size town you’re talking about but it doesn’t include us.​

    ETA: It’s nice to see some actual urban planning discussion here (JHU Evening College MS Urban Planning here!)

  141. 141.

    Another Scott

    Good hearing. I’m glad of the referrals to the DoJ and the Ethics Committee.

    Following the tradition that every thread becomes an OpenThread…

    In other news, this seems like a BFD. Robyn Pennacchia at Wonkette – Biden Admin. Declares Housing A Human Right, Announces Plan To End Homelessness:

    […]

    The Biden-Harris administration is hoping to change that, and on Monday morning released a new plan aimed at reducing the unhoused population by 25 percent by 2025.

    While the 104-page plan, developed by the US Interagency Council on Homelessness (USICH), will establish more much needed affordable housing, support programs and emergency shelters, it will also focus on preventing people from losing their homes in the first place and addressing the systemic issues that contribute to homelessness. In addition to seeking input from a variety of US agencies, USICH also interviewed hundreds of people who are or had previously been unhoused to find out what would actually be helpful to them.

    From All In: The Federal Strategic Plan to Prevent and End Homelessness:

    […]

    (Emphasis added.)

    Too many people don’t realize how tenuous existence can be, especially for young families with kids. It’s really, really easy to end up in a situation where one simply cannot afford rent and ends up living in a car or worse.

    This could and should be a big deal and will help all of us if it gets enough support. We still have a chance to do the things that need to be done:

    Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. The fiery trial through which we pass, will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation. We say we are for the Union. The world will not forget that we say this. We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We — even we here — hold the power, and bear the responsibility. In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free — honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just — a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  142. 142.

    Phylllis

    @Sure Lurkalot: I’m in charge of Perkins/Career Tech learning in my district. Part of the reason I know it’s time for me to retire (6/30/23) is how I can hardly keep my trap shut in state meetings when they start spouting this crap. Our state CTE director did a presentation here recently where she listed all the certifications industry wants our kids to have when they leave high school. Not just basics like OSHA 10, but OSHA 30 and Lockout/Tagout and everyone just nodded along. It was all I could do not stand up and ask everyone when we were going to stop swallowing business’ propaganda whole.

  143. 143.

    Ohio Mom

    Of course a diner in a very small town is going to function differently than one in a city. The city has too many people in constant flux. The same crowd doesn’t assemble twice.

    Sure, if you make it a point to be a regular, the waitstaff will know you, and sometimes you might run into someone you know from some other activity, but a city isn’t a small town, that’s the point of a city.

    You want to see different socio-economic, ethnic, etc. groups sharing a space, try the NYC subway.

  145. 145.

    Captain C

    @Brachiator: One of those descendants is Rita Lee, former member of psychedelic Tropicalia band Os Mutantes.  From what I can gather, she was not one of those who was proud of that.

  146. 146.

    UncleEbeneezer

    On Monday, the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol released an executive summary of its final report, which focuses primarily on former President Donald Trump’s alleged criminal efforts to overturn the 2020 election. The committee, however, also presented new evidence of criminal efforts to interfere with its investigation – on the part of some witnesses, their attorneys, and others associated with the former president. It is the kind of evidence that may have far-reaching implications including bolstering Special Counsel Jack Smith’s January 6th and Mar-a-Lago investigations.

    …

    The committee’s revelations accordingly sweep in a set of lawyers who have exposed themselves to criminal liability. The committee also identified some witnesses who appear to have followed through by lying to the committee.

    These individuals may not have any criminal exposure involving the scheme to overturn the election itself, but now have criminal exposure for their actions toward the congressional investigation as part of a coverup. Their potential criminal liability could provide leverage for Special Counsel Smith to try to flip individuals to cooperate against Trump in the January 6 investigations and, if they also have insights into Mar-a-Lago, then in that investigation as well. 

    More specifically, according to the committee’s summary, one “lawyer had advised the witness that the witness could, in certain circumstances, tell the Committee that she did not recall facts when she actually did recall them.”

  147. 147.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Ohio Mom: ​
     

    John Dewey is rolling in his grave. As he taught us, the purpose of public education is to develop an informed citizenry.

    Yabbut you know, I think some sort of compromise could be managed between (a) turning students into widgets to fill the needs of corporations, and (b) dumping students out the door with no career-relevant preparation at all, no idea of what they’re going to do next, and little if any idea of how they’re going to even figure that out.

  148. 148.

    Brachiator

    @Another Scott:

    it will also focus on preventing people from losing their homes in the first place and addressing the systemic issues that contribute to homelessness.

    People don’t have jobs. People don’t have enough money. Cities refuse to build livable, affordable housing.

    I didn’t realize that significant parts of Biden’s plan was released in October, but didn’t get a lot of publicity. I am looking at the proposals and reactions to it. It is very ambitious.

  151. 151.

    UncleEbeneezer

    This evidence from Hope Hicks is brand new.

    It adds meaningfully to the Insurrection charge.

    Goes to former president Trump’s foreknowledge and support for violence on January 6th. In writing here, and in Hope Hicks’ sworn testimony.

  153. 153.

    Brachiator

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    The January 6 Committee Report Summary is 154 pages. It is well written and clear, but I wish there was an even shorter version that could be sent to idiots who insist that Trump did nothing wrong or is the victim of a partisan witch hunt.

  154. 154.

    Another Scott

    @Brachiator: Unemployment is very low recently.

    I think we’re on the same page, generally, but it’s not a simple problem.  And a lot of it may not be fixable at the federal level without a lot of incentives for the states and localities to get on board.

    E.g. In Virginia the unemployment benefit ranges from $60 to $378 – maximum – per week.  Google tells me that the average rent in Alexandria VA is around $1950 for a studio apartment.  Someone in the bottom 50% (especially in the bottom 25%) could be in a world of hurt if they’re out of work for more than a few weeks.  Assuming they qualify for unemployment at all…

    It’s good that Biden’s people are looking at systemic solutions.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  155. 155.

    PaulWartenberg

    @Brachiator:

    The January 6 Committee Report Summary is 154 pages. It is well written and clear, but I wish there was an even shorter version that could be sent to idiots who insist that Trump did nothing wrong or is the victim of a partisan witch hunt.

    The idiots will never hear us, they will never believe the report and its findings. They dare not accept the facts because they’re too invested in the lies.

  156. 156.

    Brachiator

    @Another Scott:

    Unemployment is very low recently.

    Trump used to brag about high GDP and low unemployment. During the pandemic, I really began to see how misleading these statistics can be.  High GDP and especially GDP per capita falsely implies that wealth is equitably distributed to all citizens. This is manifestly false.

    Similarly, the pandemic also brought home the reality that millions of workers, especially so called “essential workers,” were not earning enough to live on, and certainly were not earning enough to deal with rising housing costs. Enhanced unemployment compensation and stimulus payments were literally lifelines that sustained many low income workers.

    Stagnant wages still hurts workers, despite low unemployment figures.

    I think we’re on the same page, generally, but it’s not a simple problem.  And a lot of it may not be fixable at the federal level without a lot of incentives for the states and localities to get on board.

    Absolutely agree that states and localities must be on board, and this is where the problem is. I have noted this before in other threads, but some cities in Los Angeles County, particularly in the San Gabriel Valley, want to become exclusively upper middle class communities.  Where I live, city government fights affordable housing, even though there are areas ideally suited to low income housing. Some Southern California communities claim that don’t want increased auto traffic, saying that this would decrease quality of life, and yet new mass transit options are tailor made for an increase in housing.

    E.g. In Virginia the unemployment benefit ranges from $60 to $378 – maximum – per week.  Google tells me that the average rent in Alexandria VA is around $1950 for a studio apartment.  Someone in the bottom 50% (especially in the bottom 25%) could be in a world of hurt if they’re out of work for more than a few weeks.  Assuming they qualify for unemployment at all…

    Yeah it can be tough.  Also, changes need to be made to unemployment compensation rules. It makes no sense to force people to stay in areas where jobs and housing are scarce. We need to make it easier for people to move to other cities and states, and still keep benefits.

    It’s good that Biden’s people are looking at systemic solutions.

    I downloaded the report and also made copies of the May and October summaries about housing at Whitehouse.gov. Good reading.

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