• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • Comment
  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

Consistently wrong since 2002

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

John Fetterman: Too Manly for Pennsylvania.  Paid for by the Oz for Senator campaign.

This blog will pay for itself.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Second rate reporter says what?

Mobile Menu

  • Winnable House Races
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • Balloon Juice 2023 Pet Calendar (coming soon)
  • COVID-19 Coronavirus
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • War in Ukraine
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • 2021-22 Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War for Ukraine Day 326: Tanks!

War for Ukraine Day 326: Tanks!

by Adam L Silverman|  January 16, 20238:35 pm| 80 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Military, Open Threads, Russia, Silverman on Security, War, War in Ukraine

FacebookTweetEmail

(Image by NEIVANMADE)

If you like NEIVANMADE’s art, well you can get it in a calendar:

Неймовірний календар від @BackAndAlive . Стікери з ілюстраціями на кожен день 2023 року! Маю честь опинитись в чудовій компанії українських ілюстраторів. Хто хоче стікери від #NEIVANMADE, то їх там двадцять чотири 🙂 pic.twitter.com/WAkfSWCy7t

— NEIVANMADE (@neivanmade) January 16, 2023

NEIVENMADE’s tweet machine translates as:

An incredible calendar from @BackAndAlive. Stickers with illustrations for every day of 2023! I am honored to be in the wonderful company of Ukrainian illustrators. If you want stickers from #NEIVANMADE , there are twenty-four of them 🙂

The big news today is that Britain is actually sending tanks to Ukraine.

The Challenger 2 is the latest piece of military equipment the UK is donating to support Ukraine. Read more about it here 👇 pic.twitter.com/Ejg1hnkiuq

— Ministry of Defence 🇬🇧 (@DefenceHQ) January 16, 2023

The statement of Ben Wallace, the British Minister of Defence, will be after the jump.

Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump: (emphasis mine)

Fellow Ukrainians!

The debris of the house destroyed by the Russian missile is still being dismantled in Dnipro. I thank everyone who is carrying out this rescue operation! Every employee of the State Emergency Service and police, every doctor, every volunteer! Everyone who is involved!

As of now, 39 people, including 6 children, have been rescued from under the rubble. 

In total, 47 reports were received about those who could have been in the house at the time of the strike and whose fate was unknown. The information about 22 people has been clarified. It is known about 40 dead, including 3 children. My condolences to all whose loved ones were killed by this strike!

The Security Service of Ukraine has already started to gather information about those Russian military who prepared and carried out this strike. There is no doubt: every person guilty of this war crime will be identified and brought to justice.

This strike at Dnipro, as well as other similar strikes, falls, in particular, under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. And we will use all available opportunities – both national and international – to ensure that all Russian murderers, everyone who gives and executes orders on missile terror against our people, face legal sentences. And to ensure that they serve their punishment.

This is a fundamental task for Ukraine and for our partners. I thank everyone who supports our country on the path to justice.

Today, by the way, I spoke with Prime Minister of the Netherlands Mark Rutte – he is one of those who help Ukraine the most, particularly in the issue of justice.

It was our third conversation with Mr. Prime Minister in four weeks.

I am grateful to Mark and all Dutch people for their continued support and clear understanding that Ukrainians must defeat Russian aggression.

Today we discussed protection against Russian missiles and Iranian drones – we are doing everything to strengthen our air defense as much as possible.

It is very important that our conversation took place on the eve of the visit of the Prime Minister of the Netherlands to the United States.

What happened in Dnipro, the fact that Russia is preparing a new attempt to seize the initiative in the war, the fact that the nature of hostilities at the front requires new decisions in the defense supply – all this only emphasizes how important it is to coordinate our efforts – efforts  of all members of the coalition to defend Ukraine and freedom. And to speed up decision-making.

Today, there is a good example from the UK. A new package of defense assistance has been announced – exactly what we need. Tanks, other armored vehicles, artillery. 

What we discussed with Prime Minister Sunak. I thank you, Rishi, I thank every Briton for the tangible and timely support!

I held a regular meeting of the Staff. The questions are as follows. Interaction with our partners. Counteraction to missile terror. Possible scenarios of enemy actions and our response to each of the probable scenarios.

There were reports of commanders, intelligence chiefs. There were also necessary decisions.

The situation in the Donetsk direction was considered separately and in detail. Soledar, Bakhmut and other cities against which Russia has concentrated its last most prepared forces.

We also reviewed the situation on the southern front. We see what Russia is preparing.

Every day and night we work to reduce the enemy’s potential: every day and night we subtract their warehouses, headquarters, communications.

Today, the OSCE Chairman-in-Office, Minister of Foreign Affairs of North Macedonia visited Kyiv.

Of course, we discussed first of all how to make the OSCE effective.

This is one of those international organizations that have significant potential, but for various reasons in critical situations have a great lack of concrete actions, a great lack of determination.

The OSCE can significantly increase attention and act accordingly regarding the deportation of our people from the occupied territory to Russia. And regarding the situation with Ukrainian prisoners. No international organization has found the strength to gain access to the places of detention of our prisoners in Russia yet. This must be corrected.

I hope that the OSCE presidency of North Macedonia will contribute to this.

Starting tomorrow, this week will be even more active in terms of our diplomacy.

The Davos Forum will start its work – Ukraine will be heard at this globally important platform.

At the end of the week, a regular meeting in the Ramstein format will be held. We expect fundamental decisions from the coalition of our partners.

Important bilateral negotiations are also planned.

Every day of our diplomatic marathon brings Ukraine quite specific defensive results. And I thank everyone who helps our state! I thank everyone who works for the victory of Ukraine!

Glory to each of our warriors! Glory to all who have been fighting since February 24 and since 2014!

This week, on January 20, we will mark the Day of Honoring the Defenders of the Donetsk airport.

Today we have already started to recall that defense, that heroism of our people. The fight started in May 2014. The last defender left the DAP on January 23, 2015. And it was such a defense that the whole world should have seen back then already what Ukrainian invincibility means.

I am confident that the Ukrainian flag will return to the Donetsk airport, Donetsk and other cities and villages of our Donbas and other temporarily occupied territories. Temporarily is the key word.

Ukraine will return its people and what belongs to it.

Glory to Ukraine!

Here is the British Minister of Defence’s statement: (emphasis mine)

Oral statement to Parliament
Defence Secretary oral statement on war in Ukraine
The Defence Secretary made a statement to Parliament updating members on the UK’s continued programme of military aid to Ukraine, including Challenger 2 tanks.

From: Ministry of Defence and The Rt Hon Ben Wallace MP
Published 16 January 2023

Mr Speaker, it’s been a month since I last updated the House on the situation in Ukraine. Over the last four weeks, extremely heavy and attritional fighting has continued, especially around the Donetsk Oblast town of Bakhmut, and in the less reported-on sector of Kremina, in Luhansk. Over Christmas, Russia has continued its assault on Ukraine’s civilian infrastructure.

But no matter how cruel or how much loss of life accompanies it, Russia has singularly failed to break the will of the Ukrainian people or change the policy of its leaders. We continue to closely monitor how Russia’s long range strike campaign will evolve, as it eats deeper into its strategic reserves of modern missiles. It is notable that Russia are now using the forced labour of convicts to manufacture weaponry. Ukraine, however, continues using its internationally provided long-range artillery to successful effect.

Mr Speaker, throughout the war, Russia has managed to lose significant numbers of generals and commanding officers. But last week’s announcement that their commander in Ukraine, General Sergei Surovikin, had been unceremoniously bypassed, with Chief of the General Staff General Gerasimov personally taking over field-command, is certainly significant. It is the visible tip of an iceberg of factionalism within the Russian command. Putin apparently remains bullish, and with Gerasimov’s deference to the President never in doubt, we now would expect a trend back towards a Russian offensive – no matter how much loss of life accompanies it.

Mr Speaker, in 2023 there is no loss of momentum from the international community, quite the opposite. President Putin believed the West would get tired, bored and fragment. Ukraine is continuing to fight and, far from fragmenting, the West is accelerating its efforts.

The United States has invested approximately $24.2 billion in support for Ukraine since the beginning of Russia’s invasion on the 24th February last year. It has delivered thousands of anti-aircraft and anti-armour systems and has recently stepped up that support – delivering Patriot air defence battery and munitions and 45 refurbished T-72B tanks as well as donating 50 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles to assist with the counter offensive.

We also welcome the decision of the French government to provide Ukraine with their AMX-10 light, highly mobile, tank. This has been used, very recently in reconnaissance missions by the French army and was deployed as recently as the Barkhane mission in West Africa.

Mr Speaker, important as these contributions are in and of themselves, what matters more is that they represent part of an international effort that collectively conveys a force multiplier effect. None of this is happening unilaterally. No one is doing this on their own.

Soon, I shall be announcing the first round of bids to the joint-chaired Danish/UK International Fund for Ukraine. I am grateful to Sweden for adding to the pot of money donated. That now includes Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Iceland, Lithuania and others have donated to that fund.

Meanwhile Russia, isolated and without such support, has now lost over 1,600 main battle tanks in Ukraine since the start of the invasion. But if we’re to continue helping Ukraine seize the upper hand in the next phase of this conflict, we must accelerate our collective efforts diplomatically, economically and militarily to keep the pressure on Putin.

In December I told the House that I was “developing options” to respond to Russia’s continued aggression in a “calibrated and determined manner”. Today I can announce the most significant package of combat power to date to accelerate Ukrainian success.

This includes:

  • A squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles.
  • We will donate AS90 guns to Ukraine. This comprises a battery of eight guns at high readiness and two further batteries at varying states of readiness. This donation will not impact our existing AS90 commitment to Estonia.
  • Hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles will also be sent including Bulldog.
  • A manoeuvre support package, including minefield breaching and bridging capabilities worth £28 million.
  • Dozens more uncrewed aerial systems worth £20 million to support Ukrainian artillery.
  • Another 100,000 artillery rounds; on top of the 100,000 rounds already delivered.
  • Hundreds more sophisticated missiles including GMLRS rockets, Starstreak air defence missiles, and medium range air defence missiles.
  • An equipment support package of spares to refurbish up to a hundred Ukrainian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

While the tanks and the AS90s will come from our stocks, along with their associated ammunition, a significant number of the other donations are being purchased from the open market or from supportive third-party countries.

Today’s package is an important increase in Ukraine’s capabilities. It means they can go from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil.  President Putin cannot win but he is equally certain to continue inflicting this wanton violence and human suffering until his forces are ejected from their defensive positions and expelled from the country.

That requires a new level of support – the combat power only achieved by combinations of main battle tank squadrons, operating alongside divisional artillery groups, and further deep precision fires enabling targeting of Russian logistics and command nodes at greater distance.

Mr Speaker, we will be the first country to donate Western main battle tanks. And, we will be bringing a further squadron of our own Challenger tanks to higher readiness in place of the squadron sent.

Even as we gift Challenger 2 Tanks, I shall, at the same time, be reviewing the number of Challenger 3 conversions to consider whether the lessons of Ukraine suggest that we need a larger tank fleet.

We will also build on the Army’s modernisation programme – at pace. Specifically on artillery, I am accelerating our Mobile Fires Programme. So instead of delivering in the 2030s it will do this earlier this decade. I have also directed that, subject to commercial negotiation, an interim artillery capability is to be delivered.

After discussion with the United States and our European allies it is hoped that the example set by the French and us will allow those countries holding Leopard tanks to donate as well. I know there are a number of countries wanting to do the same. No-one is going it alone, as I have said.

Mr Speaker, it’s worth reiterating why we are doing this. Because in 2023 the international community will not let Russia wait us out while inflicting terrible suffering on Ukrainian civilians. The international community recognises that equipping Ukraine to push Russia out of its territory is as important as equipping them to defend what they already have.

This week dozens of nations will meet in Ramstein, Germany, to progress further donations and international coordination. The Kremlin will be in no doubt that we are resolved to stand by Ukraine in her fight.

Doubling down on the success of our basic training of Ukrainian military in 2022 in the United Kingdom, we are also now increasing this number this year to a further 20,000. Canada, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Lithuania, Norway, New Zealand, the Netherlands have already joined this effort and I’m pleased to say we are now going to be joined by a group of Australian military to train in this country as well. Leaving their summer to join our winter.

Our decision today is a calibrated response to Russia’s growing aggression and indiscriminate bombing. The Kremlin must recognise that is it their behaviour that is solidifying the international resolve and that despite the propaganda Ukraine and her partners are focused on the defence of Ukraine. None of the international support is an attack on Russia, or NATO-orchestrated aggression, let alone a Proxy War.

At its heart it is about helping Ukraine defend itself, upholding international law and restoring its sovereignty. We believe that in 2023, increased supplies, improved training, and strengthening diplomatic resolve will enable Ukraine to be successful against Russia’s poorly led and now badly equipped Armed Forces.

From the outset President Putin believed his forces would be welcomed with open arms, that Ukrainians wouldn’t fight and that Western support would crumble. He has been proved wrong on all counts. Today’s package will help accelerate the conclusion of Putin’s occupation and all its brutality and ensure that in 2023 and beyond if necessary, Ukraine maintains its momentum, supported by an international community that is determined more than ever that Putin’s illegal and unprovoked invasion will fail.

Published 16 January 2023

Thank you to 🇬🇧 for another strong security assistance package.
Tanks, artillery, vehicles, drones, ammo will strengthen our capacity to drive occupiers out of 🇺🇦. These are the tools that will help to build our victory.
Thank you to @RishiSunak @BWallaceMP and the 🇬🇧 people.

— Oleksii Reznikov (@oleksiireznikov) January 16, 2023

Here’s what Shashank Joshi, The Economist‘s defense correspondent, thinks about today’s announcement:

I’d estimate 70% chance of Leopard tanks being in Ukrainian hands by end of spring. https://t.co/fOuun86IFW

— Shashank Joshi (@shashj) January 16, 2023

Here’s former NAVDEVGRU Squadron Leader Chuck Pfarrer’s most recent assessment of the situation in Kremenna:

KREMINNA AXIS /1320 UTC 16 JAN/ RU forces conducted fire missions on Kuzmyne, indicating the presence of UKR forces. The Forward Edge of the Battle Area (FEBA) is assessed to extend from the center of Kreminna in a southern direction to the banks of the Sievro-Donets River. pic.twitter.com/DA8iNmrxuI

— Chuck Pfarrer | Indications & Warnings | (@ChuckPfarrer) January 16, 2023

Dnipro:

Please remember that a lot of the reporting and statements are now hours old.

The bodies of 40 dead, including 3 children, were found at the house in Dnipro destroyed by a russian missile.
How many Ukrainians must be killed by the terrorist state before the world finally understands that that inaction and hesitancy is equivalent to siding with the killer? pic.twitter.com/HY3b0JRNvF

— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) January 16, 2023

Journalists from iStories called one of the perpetrators of the Dnipro missile strike – Dmitry Golenkov, the chief of staff of an aviation squadron of the Shaikovka aviation group. The man dismisses the accusations, his friends in the background attack and insult the journalist. pic.twitter.com/7Cb7dauInB

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) January 16, 2023

Bakhmut & Soledar:

Update from Bakhmut/Soledar, 16 January – Kiyanyn. pic.twitter.com/zuuSAxMqLo

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) January 16, 2023

I know everyone is still raw in regards to the news and imagery coming out of Dnipro and, as such, I think it is important to make sure we take note of the below here:

Did you know there are some good russians? We have 3 battalions of them fighting on our side. Freedom of Russia Legion's sworn goal is to defend Ukraine, restore Ukraine's 1991 borders including Crimea, Donetsk & Luhansk and to topple putin's regime👍 pic.twitter.com/uzV1IPSmpY

— Sofia Ukraini (@SlavaUk30722777) January 16, 2023

Obviously, this is just one video from somewhere and doesn't prove anything apart from that some people are getting fed up.

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) January 15, 2023

Those people are very brave, choosing to oppose, even knowing that they will lose everything.
Even after 22 years in Putin's regime, there are people standing up and saying that he is not right. Many have not survived this, yet every time there are people standing up.

— Dmitri (@wartranslated) January 15, 2023

Boom today!

Commandant Col. Curtis King of the U.S. Army Air Defense Artillery school tells @WestfallAustin training will consist of operator and maintainer task. This training is expected to take several months, according to DOD pic.twitter.com/n77uWfWlQB

— Liz Friden (@Liz_Friden) January 16, 2023

Obligatory:

 

Some more about Poludnytsyahttps://t.co/BpzpGFU0aO

— Sofia Ukraini (@SlavaUk30722777) January 15, 2023

There were two children from Kherson, who were heavily injured by russians’ shelling. The story of brave Artem, who lost his hand, is in the video. I’ll share 6 year old Alisa’s story soon.

— Maria Drutska 🇺🇦 (@maria_drutska) January 16, 2023

That’s enough for tonight.

Your daily Patron!

@patron__dsns

Мацьопкий я. Захотів, щоб ви просто усміхнулись!💓 #песпатрон

♬ Its me – Puff Puff

The caption machine translates as:

I’m a dork. I just wanted you to smile! 💓 #песпатрон

Open thread!

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Open Thread: DeSantis, Maybe Not the Droid They’ve Been Looking For
Next Post: Day Three in the Books »

Reader Interactions

  • Commenters
  • Filtered
  • Settings

Commenters

No commenters available.

  • 2liberal
  • Adam L Silverman
  • Andrya
  • Another Scott
  • Bill Arnold
  • Brachiator
  • cain
  • Carlo Graziani
  • Chetan Murthy
  • dmsilev
  • Geminid
  • Gin & Tonic
  • Hangö Kex
  • jonas
  • lee
  • LivinginExile
  • lowtechcyclist
  • Medicine Man
  • NutmegAgain
  • Omnes Omnibus
  • Raoul Paste
  • Ruff the dog
  • sdhays
  • Sister Golden Bear
  • Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom
  • SpaceUnit
  • SteverinoCT
  • teakay
  • The Pale Scot
  • TheMightyTrowel
  • WaterGirl
  • Windpond
  • YY_Sima Qian
  • zhena gogolia

Filtered Commenters

No filtered commenters available.

    Settings




    Settings are saved immediately; press X to close the box.

    80Comments

    1. 1.

      Ruff the dog

      January 16, 2023 at 9:00 pm

      I have spent my adult life not paying attention to armored warfare. Can you give a summery of Challenger, Leopard, Abrams vs T-90 &refurb T-72, and differences in tank doctrine as we thought they were and as we know them now?

      Reply
    2. 2.

      Omnes Omnibus

      January 16, 2023 at 9:03 pm

      Another 100,000 artillery rounds and you say “No Boom?”

      Reply
    3. 3.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 9:16 pm

      Putin is not going to live forever.  I just hope that the people surrounding him have some sort of plan in place to keep him from nuking the world from his deathbed.

      Also, what an asshole.

      Reply
    4. 4.

      Chetan Murthy

      January 16, 2023 at 9:19 pm

      @SpaceUnit: He’s got three children.  He’s treated them well.  I think he wouldn’t want them to die in a nuclear holocaust.

      Reply
    5. 5.

      dmsilev

      January 16, 2023 at 9:23 pm

      So long and tanks for all the fish! No, wait, that’s not right. So long and fish for all the tanks? Somehow that doesn’t seem quite right either. Aha! So tank and long for all the fish!

      Reply
    6. 6.

      Bill Arnold

      January 16, 2023 at 9:23 pm

      @SpaceUnit:
      Russian nuclear command and control includes the military. The Russian nuclear football can be used to order a strike, but there are other humans in the loop, presumably not on their deathbeds, and who have friends and family and a love of their country.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheget
      Also this Reuters piece from when people were getting worked up about it in March:
      https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-is-chain-command-potential-russian-nuclear-strikes-2022-03-02/

      Reply
    7. 7.

      dmsilev

      January 16, 2023 at 9:25 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: No Boom Today. Apparently the British MOD doesn’t do same-day deliveries.

      Reply
    8. 8.

      Omnes Omnibus

      January 16, 2023 at 9:27 pm

      @dmsilev: Okay, Boom soon.

      Reply
    9. 9.

      Adam L Silverman

      January 16, 2023 at 9:27 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: I said boom today.

      The video says no boom.

      I have to work with what’s available.

      Reply
    10. 10.

      Medicine Man

      January 16, 2023 at 9:28 pm

      I’m grateful for the update Dmitri forwarded. A reminder not to be disheartened by the BS narratives of this grisly russian celebration about their capture of Soledar.

      I’m also grateful for good ol fashioned American pugnacity. Really glad you guys have the skill and desire to spearhead efforts to help Ukraine.

      Reply
    11. 11.

      Adam L Silverman

      January 16, 2023 at 9:29 pm

      @Ruff the dog: Not at 9:30 PM on a school night. I’ll try to include something in the actual update tomorrow.

      Reply
    12. 12.

      Medicine Man

      January 16, 2023 at 9:29 pm

      @SpaceUnit: The fact his ability to reward or punish any of his henchmen nears its end when he’s on his deathbed will take care of that.

      Reply
    13. 13.

      Chetan Murthy

      January 16, 2023 at 9:30 pm

      I hope I’m not just being … *blind*, y’know.  Ollllld, maybe eyes failing ….

      I can’t find a link to order one of those calendars ?  Does anybody know how to do so ?

      Reply
    14. 14.

      LivinginExile

      January 16, 2023 at 9:32 pm

      Thanks for reminding me that there are Russians fighting FOR Ukraine.

      Reply
    15. 15.

      Raoul Paste

      January 16, 2023 at 9:33 pm

      The German defence Minister has resigned.  The Deutsche Welt News service played an unflattering clip of her, suggesting that she had a poor familiarity with military weapons systems.
      Deutsche Welt also showed the devastation at Dnipro.
      I hope this development means that more German assistance is forthcoming.

      Reply
    16. 16.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 9:38 pm

      @Chetan Murthy:

      @Bill Arnold:

      @Medicine Man:

      I really hope you guys are right.  The man is a sociopath.

      Reply
    17. 17.

      Chetan Murthy

      January 16, 2023 at 9:41 pm

      @LivinginExile: I can’t find it now, but there was a video interview of a RU tanker who surrendered, and was now basically the fixit guy for a UA tank battalion.  I remember well one of his closing statements: “It is my little dream to someday earn Ukrainian citizenship”.  Indeed, there are decent Russians.

      Reply
    18. 18.

      Bill Arnold

      January 16, 2023 at 9:46 pm

      @SpaceUnit:

      I really hope you guys are right.

      I’m not arguing that I’m correct, just saying that the odds against thermonuclear war should include these possibilities. It is still pretty scary.
      Also, historically, a few times USSR military members stopped the use of nuclear weapons.

      Reply
    19. 19.

      Brachiator

      January 16, 2023 at 9:57 pm

      I am not even going to pretend to be knowledgeable about weapons. But I was just listening to a BBC News story which claimed that Poland might be willing to supply Ukraine with Leopard tanks and necessary support equipment. And that these tanks were very good compared to other similar equipment. But these tanks are manufactured by Germany and Poland would need permission to let Ukraine have these vehicles. The story noted the resignation of the German defense official, and also noted that Germany would coordinate any decision with consultation and approval of US officials.

      I recall that one of the big lies of the Orange Weasel was that America was not respected by Europe until he restored the country’s mojo, but it seems clear that the Biden Administration is seen as more reliable and dependable.

      Anyway, the BBC News story is worth checking out.

      Reply
    20. 20.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 9:59 pm

      @Bill Arnold:

      Yeah.  Not too long ago I read the story of a top officer on a Russian submarine during the Cuban missile crisis.  They had nuclear weapons and were being bombarded with depth charges by the US Navy in an attempt to make them surface.

      The three top officers on the sub had to all agree to deploy the nukes, but this one particular officer held out.  Wish I could remember his name.  We should all know it.

      Reply
    21. 21.

      Ruff the dog

      January 16, 2023 at 10:02 pm

      @Adam L Silverman: cool, tanks a lot!! I will look forward to it.

      Reply
    22. 22.

      Adam L Silverman

      January 16, 2023 at 10:03 pm

      @SpaceUnit: I did a post on that guy a few years back.

      Reply
    23. 23.

      cain

      January 16, 2023 at 10:04 pm

      With the US House controlled by Putin’s allies – we out for the count for now. So glad to hear that the UK will be sending them tanks. Keeping Putin occupied means that he can’t focus on us anyways.

      As for him nuking – I’m not sure that his order will be obeyed. I think everyone likes the world as it is.

      Reply
    24. 24.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 10:04 pm

      @Adam L Silverman:

      What was his name?

      Reply
    25. 25.

      Ruff the dog

      January 16, 2023 at 10:05 pm

      @dmsilev: at this very moment I am reading Venus on the Halfshell by Kilgore Trout, and I understand from  the Pedia of Wikis that it is not unrelated to your comment.

      Reply
    26. 26.

      Adam L Silverman

      January 16, 2023 at 10:06 pm

      @SpaceUnit: I don’t recall.

      Reply
    27. 27.

      Omnes Omnibus

      January 16, 2023 at 10:13 pm

      @cain: With the US House controlled by Putin’s allies – we out for the count for now.

      Not so.  Money that has already been budgeted will still be spent.  Do you think we are training Ukrainian soldiers on Bradleys and Patriots just for fun?

      Reply
    28. 28.

      Chetan Murthy

      January 16, 2023 at 10:17 pm

      @Adam L Silverman: This? https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-soviet-submarine-captain-who-averted-nuclear-war-awarded-future-of-life-prize#:~:text=On%2027%20October%201962%2C%20Vasili,were%20unaware%20of%20the%20intention.

      On 27 October 1962, Vasili Alexandrovich Arkhipov was on board the Soviet submarine B-59 near Cuba when the US forces began dropping non-lethal depth charges. While the action was designed to encourage the Soviet submarines to surface, the crew of B-59 had been incommunicado and so were unaware of the intention. They thought they were witnessing the beginning of a third world war.

      Reply
    29. 29.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 10:22 pm

      @Chetan Murthy:

      Thank you.

      Reply
    30. 30.

      Bill Arnold

      January 16, 2023 at 10:22 pm

      fTwo of the three officers voted to fire their torpedo. The third, Vasili Alexandrovich Arkhipov, voted nyet.

      Why No Mushroom Clouds? (Michael Krepon, December 16, 2019)

      How have we managed to avoid mushroom clouds in warfare since 1945?
      …
      There were many, many serious accidents involving nuclear weapons. Not one of these accidents, malfunctions, and screw-ups resulted in a mushroom cloud. How can we explain this? Does every roll of the dice come up seven? Are we that lucky? If deterrence, diplomacy, arms control, a sense of human connectedness[1] and plain dumb luck fail to explain the absence of mushroom clouds in warfare, during intense crises, extended periods of tension, and most of the time when we’re not paying much attention, what explanation is left?
      During this holiday season, regardless of which deity you pray to, or whether you don’t pray at all, kindly give this a thought.

      Reply
    31. 31.

      The Pale Scot

      January 16, 2023 at 10:30 pm

      The problem with the Challengers is that they have have a rifled barrel instead of the NATO standard  smoothbore that everyone else uses. So the only ammo supply is from the UK, which is not producing any at the moment. So how many rounds can the UK spare?

      Reply
    32. 32.

      Ruff the dog

      January 16, 2023 at 10:35 pm

      @Adam L Silverman: tanks a lot! My knowledge is based on 1980’s Fulda Gap combined arms doctrine and I hear the world has changed since then.

      Reply
    33. 33.

      Gin & Tonic

      January 16, 2023 at 10:39 pm

      @SpaceUnit: Serhii Plokhy’s history of the Cuban Missile Crisis is excellent.

      Reply
    34. 34.

      Gin & Tonic

      January 16, 2023 at 10:41 pm

      @SpaceUnit: Vasily Arkhipov.

      ETA: Too slow.

      Reply
    35. 35.

      Ruff the dog

      January 16, 2023 at 10:41 pm

      @dmsilev: I just finished (like five minutes ago) Venus on the Halfshell by Kilgore Trout, which the Pedia of Wikis says is not unrelated to your literary allusions.

      (My memory says I posted this but reloading the comments indicates I did not. Sorry if it appears twice).

      Reply
    36. 36.

      Windpond

      January 16, 2023 at 10:41 pm

      @SpaceUnit:Vasily Aleksandrovich Arkhipov

      Reply
    37. 37.

      Carlo Graziani

      January 16, 2023 at 10:43 pm

      Great update tonight! Lots to think about.

      From Mr Defence Secretary’s statement:

      A squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles.

      …which is a reminder of how much other stuff goes with a tank donation, in order for the tanks not to become useless within a week or two. This will also be true of the Leopards, when (as now seems inevitable) they finally show up. And, as we know, training of tankers and mechanics on all that stuff. Perhaps some training has already happened informally, in Poland? Nothing in the German re-export rules to forbid such a thing, so far as I know…

      Hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles will also be sent including Bulldog.
      A manoeuvre support package, including minefield breaching and bridging capabilities worth £28 million.
      An equipment support package of spares to refurbish up to a hundred Ukrainian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles.

      Clearly the upgunning of Ukraine is entering a new phase. We’ve moved on from just artillery, to air defense suppression, to large-scale air defense, but now there’s something qualitatively new: offensive infantry and armor tools. This tells us that NATO nations are not just blowing smoke when they talk about evicting the Russians from Ukrainian territory. They are preparing the UA to seize and hold the initiative in the war in 2023.

      Also to be kept in mind: policy decisions like this are not made from one week to the next, let alone at the pace of news cycles. This UK package must have been in preparation for many weeks, and under active discussion with the US. There are certainly other decisions in preparation now that we won’t know about for weeks. This is the reason I choose to trust the Biden administration’s judgment in management of the NATO coalition in support of the war: stuff keeps happening under the radar, when on the surface one might be misled into believing there is hesitation and inaction.

      We will donate AS90 guns to Ukraine. This comprises a battery of eight guns at high readiness and two further batteries at varying states of readiness. 

      Barrels! Omnes? Are you still awake? I was sure you’d fall to your knees weeping for joy.

      Reply
    38. 38.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 10:45 pm

      @Gin & Tonic:

      We should all say his name.

      Reply
    39. 39.

      NutmegAgain

      January 16, 2023 at 10:47 pm

      @Raoul Paste: Uh-oh! pedantic alert!!  I think you’ll find that service is Deutsche Welle, not Welt.  Got that out of my system, phew.

      Reply
    40. 40.

      Andrya

      January 16, 2023 at 10:50 pm

      We should also remember Lt. Col. Stanislav Petrov, who was on duty at the Soviet “missile attack early warning system” on Sept. 26,  1983.  A computer malfunction mistook light reflections off clouds for incoming NATO missiles- first one missile, then five.  And this was at a time when then-President Reagan was indulging in a lot of bellicose talk toward the USSR.  Petrov correctly calculated that this must be a mistake (partly because NATO would not do a first strike with only five missiles)- so, he did not report the incident up the chain of command.  This was quite risky for him, and actually did severely damage his career.

      Reply
    41. 41.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 10:50 pm

      @Windpond:

      Okay, saying his name is easier said than done.

      He’s still a righteous dude.

      Reply
    42. 42.

      sdhays

      January 16, 2023 at 10:54 pm

      @cain: There’s a majority of support for funding Ukraine in the House. It may include only a minority of Republicans, but it’s a majority of the House, and the Senate and President are involved in budgeting too.

      It’s right to place emphasis on the risk the House Republicans pose, but just accepting that they have ended any future funding for Ukraine is just defeatist and, frankly, gives them too much credit.

      Reply
    43. 43.

      Sister Golden Bear

      January 16, 2023 at 10:56 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: “No boom today. Boom tomorrow. And always a boom tomorrow.”

      Reply
    44. 44.

      SpaceUnit

      January 16, 2023 at 10:56 pm

      @Andrya:

      Amen.  I’ve read that story as well.

      Reply
    45. 45.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 16, 2023 at 11:07 pm

      @The Pale Scot:

      The problem with the Challengers is that they have have a rifled barrel instead of the NATO standard  smoothbore that everyone else uses. So the only ammo supply is from the UK, which is not producing any at the moment. So how many rounds can the UK spare?

      That is indeed a logistical challenge, worse than w/ the Leopard 2. In any case, the Ukrainian Army has into introduce another type of tank main gun ammo, in addition to the Soviet-pattern 125 mm smoothbores on the T-80s/T-72s/T-64 models it has been using. When the Leopard 2s do come, it will yet another another type of tank main gun ammo. After the war, the Ukrainian personnel overseeing logistics will be able to write books & give lessons, given the bewildering array of platforms, weapons & munitions they have to deal w/.

      BTW, it seems the British Army has finally come to its senses & is adopting the NATO standard Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore for the Challenger 3 upgrade? Long overdue.

      Reply
    46. 46.

      Another Scott

      January 16, 2023 at 11:20 pm

      Maximum Speed: 37 mph

      I really wonder if those published maximum speed numbers are an intent to fool adversaries.

      I remember in the late 1970s driving on the highway in West Virginia and coming across a National Guard unit out practicing.  They were having no trouble driving their M60 tanks down the highway with the rest of us at 55-60 mph.  (Maybe my memory is faulty and it was a different model, but it was before the M1(Axyz), and they were certainly going a lot faster than <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_tank">30 mph.)

      Dunno.

      Slava Ukraini!!

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    47. 47.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 16, 2023 at 11:27 pm

      @Bill Arnold:

      From the Michael Krepon article you shared:

      What explains the actions of Arkhipov, Petrov and others like them when dealing with false alarms and excruciating, time-constrained decisions? Deterrence theory, diplomacy, and arms control don’t explain why these instances didn’t result in mushroom clouds. A sense of human connectedness does. Some close calls have been averted by human beings who have demonstrated allegiance to a common sense of humanity when staring into the Gates of Hell. So, let’s add human connectedness to our list of possible reasons for the absence of mushroom clouds in periods of intense tension.

      Another reason to avoid dehumanizing one’s rivals & enemies, especially now that nukes are part of the arsenal.

      Also a reminder that a blockade or a quarantine is an act of war, & depth charging a submarine in international waters definitely would be considered an act of war today (incredibly reckless back then). That is why I am frightened by the analyses out of Beijing & DC appearing to postulate that a Chinese blockade of Taiwan and/or a US-led distant blockade (at the Malacca Strait, for instance) of China would somehow be less than “kinetic”, & the determined effort all around refusing to address the risk of escalation to nuclear war when war gaming conventional conflicts between China & the US over Taiwan. An awful lot of inks have been spilled & will be spilled, an awful lot of money have been spent & will be spent, to win a conventional war in the Taiwan setting, but little effort that I can see on how to avoid an escalation to WMDs.

      Reply
    48. 48.

      Another Scott

      January 16, 2023 at 11:29 pm

      @Another Scott: Bah.  Sorry for the mangled HTML.

      You get the idea though, I hope.

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    49. 49.

      Carlo Graziani

      January 16, 2023 at 11:32 pm

      New bridge/logistical target! Per ISW:

      Russian forces continued efforts to develop new logistic routes between Russia and southern Ukraine, likely to disperse their lines of communication against Ukrainian strikes. The Russian occupation head of Kherson Oblast, Vladimir Saldo, claimed that Russian authorities finished restoring the Henichesk-Arabat Spit bridge, improving Russian transport logistics.

      On Google Maps satellite view, the Henichesk bridge is a roadway-only, not holding a railway span like Kerch does. Also not currently in HIMARS M-31 munition range. Still, something for SOF to think about.

      Reply
    50. 50.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 16, 2023 at 11:37 pm

      @Another Scott: The M60 has even lower published on-road max speed than the M1 models. ~ 60 – 70 km/hr is typical for max on road speed for tanks build in the past couple of decades. Perhaps the tanks you saw were running light (no ammo, no add-on armor & partial fuel load)?

      Reply
    51. 51.

      Another Scott

      January 16, 2023 at 11:43 pm

      @YY_Sima Qian: I can’t explain it.  And I may not have IDed it correctly.  But it had treads and a big gun and a guy was sticking his head out grinning at us as we were all startled that something that big could go so fast.

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    52. 52.

      jonas

      January 16, 2023 at 11:49 pm

      @Raoul Paste: ​
      She was way out of her depth from the very beginning. When she was appointed defense minister — she had zero background in defense or foreign policy — it was taken as a sign of the government’s unseriousness about military matters. Then Ukraine happened and while Germany has been perhaps a bit cautious, they’re standing pretty firm against Russia and have been providing important assistance and equipment to Ukraine. But Scholz’s government has since also committed to rebuilding Germany’s military capability and it was clear that Lamprecht wasn’t the person for the job, so she had to go.

      Reply
    53. 53.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 16, 2023 at 11:51 pm

      @Another Scott: Well, weapons systems are generally capable of exceeding the published max parameters, that includes the published max on-road speeds of main battle tanks. However, tanks probably cannot sustainably perform beyond published max due to high risk of major mechanical failure.

      Reply
    54. 54.

      Hangö Kex

      January 17, 2023 at 12:10 am

      Vasily Aleksandrovich Arkhipov has restored my faith in humanity. Which is no small feat. Also, I miss Alison Rose.

      Reply
    55. 55.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 17, 2023 at 12:17 am

      @jonas: I think it is common in Parliamentary systems for cabinet ministers not to have much or any experience in a portfolio prior to assuming responsibility. Ursula von Der Leyen had no prior experience w/ nations defense or foreign policy prior to becoming Merkel’s Defense Minister for 6 yrs. They have to rely upon the bureaucracy in formulating executable plans & strategies to achieve politically decided objectives, & are entirely reliant upon the bureaucracy to execute said plans & strategies.

      I have always wondered how cabinet ministers in the Parliamentary system could possibly supervise & control the bureaucracy in their respective ministries, given the asymmetry in knowledge & experience. I have also been bewildered by the cabinet re-shuffles that can happen when the PMs in the UK or Australia are under duress, where portfolios seem to be scrambled willy-nilly. Perhaps commenters living in Parliamentary democracies can help explain.

      As for the specific case of Lambrecht, my speculation is that she was scapegoated by Scholz. I would rather doubt she is the main decision maker on sending weapons to Ukraine. I think we have seen quite a bit of reporting that Scholz is pretty hands on when it come to matters related to Russia & China, & on occasion is willing to override recommendations by the cabinet majority.

      Reply
    56. 56.

      Carlo Graziani

      January 17, 2023 at 12:28 am

      @YY_Sima Qian: You should watch the BBC shows Yes, Minister, and the sequel, Yes, Prime Minister. All your questions will be answered.

      Reply
    57. 57.

      Hangö Kex

      January 17, 2023 at 12:51 am

      @YY_Sima Qian: Quite, the ministers – if they are wise – rely on the senior civil servants (sometimes they don’t, but the result tends to be a hot mess). (I think there is a poem by Eino Leino about this; I’ll post it if I manage to find it.)

      Reply
    58. 58.

      TheMightyTrowel

      January 17, 2023 at 12:56 am

      @Carlo Graziani: also The Thick Of It

      Reply
    59. 59.

      Sister Inspired Revolver of Freedom

      January 17, 2023 at 1:06 am

      @Ruff the dog: There are a variety of videos on YouTube that are capable of explaining a variety of tanks well enough even my ignorant self can understand them. I am watching one now: Task & Purpose run by Chris Capy  who served in Iraq. He can be a bit of a goof, but he knows his stuff. Or knows people who do. Perun is another one, recommended by Adam himself.  Just about any video he puts out is worth a watch. Also, too, Wikipedia can be your friend in this endeavour. Adam does so much hard work on these updates, let’s not add to his burdens.

      Adam thanks again for your generosity with your time and expertise. We are blessed to have you.

      Slava Ukraini!😁

      Reply
    60. 60.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 17, 2023 at 1:08 am

      @Carlo Graziani:

      @Hangö Kex:

      I have never watched either show beginning to end, but I have watched many clips. Absolutely hilarious!

      However, this was intended as a serious question. Presumably policy is still set by the ruling cabinet, through the specific cabinet minister, but how could execution of plans & strategies in service of the declared policy actually happen if the senior civil servants & the bureaucracy seek to frustrate them at every turn? Or does the bureaucracy really do carry out the orders even if they have misgivings? I have read about both happening, especially in the Japanese context.

      Reply
    61. 61.

      2liberal

      January 17, 2023 at 1:35 am

      deleted

      Reply
    62. 62.

      TheMightyTrowel

      January 17, 2023 at 1:53 am

      @YY_Sima Qian: In Australia the public service is supposed to be the source of expertise and empowered to offer “Frank and fearless advice” when approached by a minister seeking the best way to implement govt policy. That doesn’t always work, and in fact we’re in a moment of particular turmoil because our last (conservative) govt did a lot of work to undermine and hollow out the PS through private contracting, job losses and political appointments to top PS roles which effectively politicised the bureaucracy. It’s still better imho that empowering a bunch of senior military people to think they’re running the show a la the States, but it can get farcical. Ideally ministers are appointed to portfolios they care about – our current edu minister for example is the first in his family to go to uni and always made ed policy one of his main concerns. Obvs, again,  that’s an ideal and not standard reality…

      Reply
    63. 63.

      Carlo Graziani

      January 17, 2023 at 2:01 am

      @YY_Sima Qian: I’m sure it’s a sort of dance. One can give “orders”, but at the level of detailed implementation, with details of importance not always grasped by ministers (and hardly ever by new ones) and latencies of weeks expected for various processes to play out, it would take enormous focus and determination and perseverance for a minister to bend a recalcitrant civil service. Churchill in wartime was notorious for his ability to instill terror in civil servants with his ACTION THIS DAY scrawls on proposal memos, and for exploiting his memory and his energy and his long experience of government to require follow-up results to his directives. It had good and bad aspects. Brooke and the IGS often wished they could shield themselves from his notional generalship, for good reason. Most ministers are less formidable.

      Probably better results are attained in longer-lived governments with longer-tenured ministers who are both more experienced and have arrived at some compromise understanding and modus vivendi with their respective secretaries, who are themselves creatures of politics in a way. But there certainly is no incentive for the civil service to go out of its way to comply with the full spirit of directives from a minister whose tenure is very likely ephemeral, where that spirit is felt disruptive of long-settled policy. In this, Yes, Minister is spot on.

      Reply
    64. 64.

      Carlo Graziani

      January 17, 2023 at 2:01 am

      Duplicate, deleted.

      Reply
    65. 65.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 17, 2023 at 2:06 am

      @TheMightyTrowel: Thank you for the explanation!

      Reply
    66. 66.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 17, 2023 at 2:12 am

      @Carlo Graziani: Thank makes sense. Thanks!

      Reply
    67. 67.

      TheMightyTrowel

      January 17, 2023 at 2:35 am

      @YY_Sima Qian: I think the point is that the ministers are not expected to be able to do the nitty gritty of implementation or even to know whether idea X will violate longstanding rule A if made immediately into law – in the same way a tall ship’s captain doesn’t make the nails or plane the planks, but has a carpenter and blacksmith they listen to instead.

      Reply
    68. 68.

      YY_Sima Qian

      January 17, 2023 at 5:39 am

      @TheMightyTrowel: Using your analogy, the civil servants in the bureaucracy are expected to follow the directions from the cabinet minister, but that is far less assured than on a sailing ship.

      In Japan, the bureaucrats in the Japanese ministries had a long tradition of holding policy swings in either direction by the ruling government at any given time firmly in check . So a lot of domestic or foreign policy initiatives would be announced w/ fanfare but follow up actions much more muted. This has finally changed during the Shinzo Abe era, as the twin anxieties caused by a rising China & potentially unreliable US has driven the Japanese elite & bureaucracy to accelerate their “normalization” process. This is happening under the guise of tightened alliance w/ the US, but the ultimate goal (long held & long cherished by “normalization’s” staunchest proponents among the revanchist right wing) is to enable Japan to survive potential US abandonment & allow Japan to act w/o constraint (including those imposed by the US).

      Reply
    69. 69.

      lowtechcyclist

      January 17, 2023 at 6:08 am

      @dmsilev: ​
      CHICOLINI: I wouldn’t go out there unless I was in one of those big iron things go up and down like this. What do you call those things?

      FIREFLY: Tanks.

      CHICOLINI: You’re welcome.

      Reply
    70. 70.

      zhena gogolia

      January 17, 2023 at 7:44 am

      @Hangö Kex: I miss Alison too.

      Reply
    71. 71.

      lee

      January 17, 2023 at 9:09 am

      Your post mentioned the Russians that are doing good in Ukraine. I would also point out the Russians that fled the mobilization (I believe the upper estimate is about 500k). I’m sure the vast majority of them did it for selfish reasons for not wanting to die for Russia, but they still did an actual good thing of robbing the Russian Army of able bodies.

      Reply
    72. 72.

      teakay

      January 17, 2023 at 9:33 am

      @SpaceUnit: The Minuteman Missile National Historic Site in Wall, South Dakota is a fascinating place to visit. The museum itself is very small. But it features taped  interviews with the elderly former Russian officer who defied orders and offers a peek at the interior of a South Dakota silo (whose numbers are now greatly reduced) whose tight interior holds two very young soldiers who are always within eyesight of each other during their long shifts. It lists the alarming  number of times catastrophe was averted. You can also gaze down the silo of a deactivated ICBM at a site a couple of miles away. There are 400 of these silos still active dotting the great plains. Initially, many of the farmers and ranchers in the area were none to happy to have these on their land  but they got used to them and the bump to the local economy was appreciated. The museum is a couple of hours drive from the fantastic Custer State Park, considered by some as the best state park in the country.

      Reply
    73. 73.

      WaterGirl

      January 17, 2023 at 9:37 am

      @sdhays:

      …and, frankly, gives them too much credit.

      And too much power!

      Reply
    74. 74.

      Gin & Tonic

      January 17, 2023 at 9:47 am

      @teakay: There’s a great book on a lot of the near-disasters named Command and Control. IIRC, raven has read it; I have, too. It’s not a good book if you want to sleep soundly.

      Reply
    75. 75.

      teakay

      January 17, 2023 at 10:56 am

      @Gin & Tonic: There is a documentary on Amazon prime video of the same name that I will have to watch. Most of my reading is done in the later evening so I try (often unsucessfully) to go with somniferous content. Thanks for the tip.

      Reply
    76. 76.

      Andrya

      January 17, 2023 at 11:50 am

      @sdhays:  I really hope you are right (Republican support in the House for Ukraine),  but there is a problem.  I assume Kevin McCarthy will follow the Hastert Rule,  which says that a Republican speaker will only allow a vote on a bill that a majority of Republicans support.  (McCarthy is clearly terrified of the extreme right in his caucus who are objectively pro-putin.)

      IIUC, the Hastert Rule can only be overridden by a discharge petition, which requires the signatures (not just the votes) of a majority of the entire House.  Thus, 6 Republicans would have to join the Democrats in actually signing the petition (assuming 100% of Democrats sign.)  And those who signed would,  without doubt, be primaried as “traitors who sold out to Democrats”.  Those primary challenges would have a very high probability of being successful.

      I would expect a lot of pro-Ukraine Republicans would do pathetic weaseling:  “yes I support Ukraine, but a discharge petition is a step too far”.

      There’s also the upcoming debt limit crisis:  no one knows how that will play out, but it will probably put pressure on moderate Republicans to stick to the party line.

      If this isn’t a dead thread, I’d be very interested in comments or corrections.

      Reply
    77. 77.

      SteverinoCT

      January 17, 2023 at 12:00 pm

      @Chetan Murthy: On 27 October 1962, Vasili Alexandrovich Arkhipov was on board the Soviet submarine B-59 near Cuba

      A friend gave me a signed copy of his book, since I was a submariner. I didn’t really know the background, and the book was so turgid I never got through it. A naval officer is not necessarily a good writer. OTOH it had to go through translation, so I can’t say how good the original is. I’ll have to dig it out and give it another go.

      Reply
    78. 78.

      Bill Arnold

      January 17, 2023 at 12:02 pm

      @Andrya:
      Republican Representatives in purple districts might be more willing; they were elected in a purple district, and the GOP would know that a primary win by a loon would mean a probable general election HR seat loss.

      Reply
    79. 79.

      Geminid

      January 17, 2023 at 12:36 pm

      @Andrya: Discharge petitions are rarely if ever successful. Usually the parties are too cohesive for dissenters to take that step.

      I would not rule a successful discharge petition out in this Congress, though. Dominance by radicals in the Republican caucus may cause defections from their counterparts on the less radical side.

      And while it is true generaly that a defector would be punished in their 2024 primaries, there are exceptions. One type is would be Representatives like Don Bacon (NE), who probably intends to retire anyway. Then there are David Valadeo (CA) and Dan Newsome (WA). They ran in open, “jungle” primary states and won reelection despite voting to impeach Trump.

      I think that Brian Kilpatrick(?) (PA) and Jen Kiggans (VA-2) might be exceptions also. Kilpatrick represents a purple, fairly affluent district in the Philadelphia suburbs that a more radical Republican would probably lose. Republicans there might be too pragmatic to ditch him over this issue.

      Kiggans will be interesting to watch this year. She’s the freshman Rep who just beat Elaine Luria (also a retired Navy Lt. Commander). Kiggans is already in conflict with the radicals because their program of budget cutting will hurt her district, which is heavily dependent on federal spending. Strong support from establishment Republicans helped Kiggans beat a more radical oponent in 2022, and might carry her in 2024. Republican Rob Wittman in the adjacent 1st CD is in a similar position.

      A general obsevation: the Republicans’ intra-party struggle over Ukraine aid will be conditioned in part by the course of the war itself. If Ukraine is clearly winning six months from now, that should strengthen the hands of those favoring aid. Conversely, a stalemate would favor Gaetz’s faction.

      Reply
    80. 80.

      Andrya

      January 17, 2023 at 3:19 pm

      @Bill Arnold:   @Geminid:  Thanks!

      Reply

    Leave a Comment

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

    If you don't see both the Visual and the Text tab on the editor, click here to refresh.

    Clear Comment

    To reply to more than one person, click the X to save & close the box.

    Primary Sidebar

    🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

    Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
    Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

    2023 Pet Calendars

    Pet Calendar Preview: A
    Pet Calendar Preview: B

    *Calendars can not be ordered until Cafe Press gets their calendar paper in.

    Recent Comments

    • Omnes Omnibus on Friday Evening Open Thread: Spy-by Flyby (Feb 3, 2023 @ 10:01pm)
    • Jim Bales on Music Open Thread (Feb 3, 2023 @ 10:00pm)
    • Chacal Charles Calthrop on Friday Evening Open Thread: Spy-by Flyby (Feb 3, 2023 @ 10:00pm)
    • Mr. Bemused Senior on Friday Evening Open Thread: Spy-by Flyby (Feb 3, 2023 @ 9:57pm)
    • piratedan on Music Open Thread (Feb 3, 2023 @ 9:57pm)

    Balloon Juice Posts

    View by Topic
    View by Author
    View by Month & Year
    View by Past Author

    Featuring

    Medium Cool
    Artists in Our Midst
    Authors in Our Midst
    We All Need A Little Kindness
    Favorite Dogs & Cats
    Classified Documents: A Primer

    Calling All Jackals

    Site Feedback
    Nominate a Rotating Tag
    Submit Photos to On the Road
    Balloon Juice Mailing List Signup

    Front-pager Twitter

    John Cole
    DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
    Betty Cracker
    Tom Levenson
    TaMara
    David Anderson
    ActualCitizensUnited

    Shop Amazon via this link to support Balloon Juice   

    Join the Fight!

    Join the Fight Signup Form
    All Join the Fight Posts

    Balloon Juice Events

    5/14  The Apocalypse
    5/20  Home Away from Home
    5/29  We’re Back, Baby
    7/21  Merging!

    Balloon Juice for Ukraine

    Donate

    Site Footer

    Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

    • Facebook
    • RSS
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • Comment Policy
    • Our Authors
    • Blogroll
    • Our Artists
    • Privacy Policy

    Copyright © 2023 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

    Insert/edit link

    Enter the destination URL

    Or link to existing content

      No search term specified. Showing recent items. Search or use up and down arrow keys to select an item.
        Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

        Email sent!