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I bet you guys know all sorts of interesting stories about who almost got the part in some famous movie, but in the end the part went to someone else, and we can’t imagine the movie would have been nearly as good if the original actors being considered had actually gotten the part. Or maybe you think the film would have been better with the first actor they had in mind?
Tell us about movies that fit that bill, and imagine what the movie might have been like with the original choices. What would have worked, and what wouldn’t have worked, if the original artist/s being considered had gotten the part? Can the choice of lead actor make or break a film? Or would the film possibly have been perhaps less of a hit, or more of a hit, but still a film of mostly the same caliber?
frosty fred
I don’t think anything compares with contemplating Shirley Temple as Dorothy in Wizard of Oz. I shudder every time.
Benw
Will Smith turned down Neo and Val Kilmer turned down Morpheus in The Matrix. I like both those dudes (give or take “the slap”), but I think that version would have been TERRIBLE.
dm
Ronald Reagan was supposedly the first choice for Rick in Casablanca.
The Up and Up
They really, really wanted Carrie Fisher for the role of Miss Scarlet in the movie Clue. Rowan Atkinson was to play Wadsworth as their top choice, Leonard Rossiter, had died. Tim Curry and Lesley Ann Warren were eventually cast instead.
Alison Rose
It came up in a previous thread, but John Travolta was on tap for Forrest Gump. I canNOT picture that at all. Especially because of the nature of the character. Tom Hanks is one of very few actors I’m comfortable with playing a character like that.
SiubhanDuinne
Buddy Ebsen was supposed to be Tin Man in The Wizard of Oz, but he had a terrible respiratory reaction to the aluminium makeup, so he left the film just an few days in, and Jack Haley got the part.
Miss Bianca
@dm: that was the one I was going to come up with, so I guess I’ll have to do another.
Hmmm…Basil Rathbone was considered for the role of Rhett Butler.
Think.About.That.
ETA: Also, Bette Davis was under consideration for the role of Scarlett O’Hara, as was every other major actress in Hollywood at the time. My understanding is that she got the lead role in Jezebel as a sort of consolation prize.
dm
@dm: I stand corrected: Snopes says it’s not true, and traces it to a puff-piece press release by the studio before the script to Casablanca was prepared:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ronald-reagan-casablanca/
(that’s a relief)
ian
The LOTR films originally had Stuart Townsend to play the role of Aragorn, but dropped him a few weeks into production because of personality issues with other actors. Viggo Mortensen got the role instead and had to start shooting scenes with almost no practice or rehearsal.
piratedan
Eric Stoltz as Marty McFly in Back To The Future….
SpaceUnit
I feel that any Tom Cruise movie would have been vastly improved by casting someone other than Tom Cruise.
dm
Not a movie, but Stephen Stills wasn’t pretty enough for a role in The Monkees.
(This time I checked before posting a “thing I heard”.)
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
I heard a rumor that the part of Axel Foley in Beverly Hills Cop was written for Sylvester Stallone.
PaulB
David Niven and Bette Davis were recruited to play the leads in “The African Queen” that eventually went to Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn. I seem to recall that it fell through because of Davis. She was offered the role again several years later, this time with James Mason as co-star, but had to decline because she was pregnant.
Niven and Bogart were friends, and when Niven told Bogart that the only reason he (Bogart) had gotten the role was because Davis couldn’t do it, Bogart laughed and then told him, basically, that he (Niven) would have sucked in the role. Niven had to admit that there was some truth to that.
Alison Rose
@ian: I feel like I read somewhere that Russell Crowe was also an idea for Aragorn. I really don’t think that would’ve worked.
WaterGirl
@frosty fred: Shirley Temple as Dorothy. Just no.
@dm: On my god, WTF were they thinking?
GrannyMC
Albert Finney was director David Lean’s first choice for Lawrence of Arabia.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
Also this is a little off topic but I always wondered why Cloris Leachman, who was hilarious to the end, never got the Betty White treatment – a hosting gig on SNL and such.
WaterGirl
@dm: I almost wrote that I hoped that was wrong! Before you said it was wrong. The nausea is already starting to recede.
columbusqueen
John Huston wanted to film The Man Who Would Be King back in the early 50s, with Bogart & Gable in the parts that Connery & Caine took later. I’m glad Huston had to wait 20+ years.
Amir Khalid
Hercules‘ Kevin Sorbo auditioned to play Fox Mulder on The X-Files. Aside from being a right-wing lunkhead, Sorbo wouldn’t have had anything like the legendary chemistry that David Duchovny had with Gillian Anderson.
GrannyMC
@SpaceUnit
I would make an exception for The Color of Money, where he played himself, i.e., shit-grinning jerk.
Baud
@Amir Khalid:
Now that’s wild.
WaterGirl
@ian: Viggo Mortensen was so gorgeous as Aragorn in that movie.
I wonder if there is going to be even one comment in this thread where any of us thinks, “oh, that would have been a better choice.”
Amir Khalid
@dm:
Neither was Charles Manson, thank God.
delphinium
@ian: Stuart Townsend (personality issues aside) might have been okay but really, Viggo was a perfect fit for that role.
Alison Rose
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: My favorite Cloris Leachman moment, at the roast of Bob Saget (skip to 13:15 if it doesn’t go right there)
PaulB
Warren Beatty was offered the title role in the first Superman film. He told the story that he borrowed a Superman costume and played around in his back yard trying to imagine himself in the part. He claimed that he looked and felt so stupid that he subsequently turned down the part.
The part was also offered to Robert Redford, who also turned it down. Others in consideration for the role, according to IMDB, were Muhammad Ali, John Beck, James Brolin, Charles Bronson, James Caan, Sam Elliot, Dustin Hoffman, Perry King, Burt Reynolds, Kris Kristofferson, Steve McQueen, Nick Nolte, Al Pacino, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ryan O’Neal, Jeff Bridges, Jan-Michael Vincent, David Soul, Robert Wagner, Christopher Walken, Jon Voight, Lyle Waggoner, and Elton John. Oh, and Ilya Salkind’s wife’s dentist, whose screen test is available in the supplemental material.
Some of those I can see, but some of those choices boggle the mind. Elton John? Muhammad Ali? Seriously?
GrannyMC
@Alison Rose:
That’s because Tom Hanks can act.
Baud
Kirk Douglas wanted the Jack Nicholson role in Cuckoo’s Nest.
delphinium
@GrannyMC: I also thought he was fine in Taps and Magnolia.
columbusqueen
@delphinium: My understanding was that Jackson felt Townsend looked too young as Aragorn.
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose:
JUST NO!
Tony Jay
@ian:
Am I thinking if someone else, or was Stuart Townsend the choice to replace Cruise as Lestat in The Queen of the Damned?
@SpaceUnit:
There’s one for you, then.
Alison Rose
@GrannyMC: Indeed. But when we’re talking about a character with developmental differences, there’s a special care to be taken with a role like that, and I felt he did it very respectfully. I think other actors might have hammed it too much or something.
WaterGirl
@delphinium: Those sculpted cheekbones!
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Richard Pryor was supposed to be the sheriff in Blazing Saddles, but the studio vetoed it because of his drug issues. He would have been brilliant of course, but it would have been a very different movie. Hard to imagine anyone but Cleavon Little now.
SpaceUnit
@GrannyMC:
I can scarcely remember that one. I’ll take your word for it.
Tony Jay
@PaulB: Did they basically consider everyone with a pulse and a set of gonads for the role?
I mean, Elton John aside, Hoffman? Really?
Alison Rose
@Tony Jay: Yes, Townsend was in Queen of the Damned. I’m trash for that movie and I’m not ashamed to admit it!
RSA
I think it may be partly because of the way the movie differs from Winston Groom’s novel. Hanks doesn’t seem like a match for the novel’s character, though I don’t know if Travolta would have been better. The opening line from the novel may give the flavor:
artem1s
Genevieve Bujold was originally cast as Janeway for Voyager. I think she couldn’t take the hours and walked off the set. Kate Mulgrew cut her teeth doing soaps so knew how to handle the long hours.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I heard George Clooney was actually supposed to play Bruce Wayne / Batman in a film but fortunately wiser heads… what? That one got made? Yeah right, pull the other one.
Sort of on-topic but it’s TV, Jerry Van Dyke was in line to play Gilligan on Gilligan’s Island, but opted for My Mother the Car instead. Which I actually watched. What can I say, I was probably 8 years old, I didn’t have any taste.
trollhattan
@SpaceUnit: Heh, you’re not wrong. I’ll stand up for him in “Risky Business” since the character requires that teen smugness. Grown Cruise works in “Magnolia” because it’s such a natural fit.
Wyatt Salamanca
@Baud:
Ken Kesey hated Jack Nicholson’s performance and would have preferred Gene Hackman in the role.
Alison Rose
@RSA: YES, I read the book after seeing the movie and I was like…ugh, in the book, the character is kind of a pig!
dm
Jack Nicholson was offered a leading role (presumably the Paul Newman character) in The Sting, but turned it down.
Hmm. That might have worked.
If it had, Robert Shaw probably wouldn’t have been the villain/victim Donnegan (that was Newman’s doing). But that role might have gone to Marlon Brando.
That might have worked, too.
trollhattan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Agree. Pryor would have played smooth, but Little was smooth and that’s why it worked so well.
delphinium
@WaterGirl: Yes! He is a fine looking man : ).
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay:
No kidding! I had a similar thought when I read it, though less cleverly phrased.
“Hey, you got the part!”
“Great, it’s nice to be the first choice for a role like this!”
“Um…”
Tony Jay
@Alison Rose:
I think I may have seen it. A black haired Lestat though? Come on, now.
As an aside, has anyone watched The Mayfair Witches? I’m sort of considering it, but even with Alexandra Daddario’s many charms on offer I’m not sure there’s enough story there outside of the hot ‘n heavy bad-Catholic pr0n Rice got into around that time.
noncarborundum
Not a movie, but Tom Poston was the producers’ first choice to play Maxwell Smart in Get Smart. However, ABC passed on the series and Poston was under contract with ABC, so they had to find someone else for the part.
Amir Khalid
@PaulB:
Gregory Peck would have made an awesome Superman, had he only been young enough in the 1970s.
SpaceUnit
@trollhattan:
Maybe. I just don’t think he has any range as an actor.
Obvious Russian Troll
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
I heard they were considering Michael Keaton for the Batman role at one time. Michael Keaton!
(I will admit he worked out a lot better in that role than I thought he would.)
Alison Rose
@Tony Jay: I haven’t seen it. That series is actually my favorite of her works, and I’d be afraid they couldn’t do it justice.
Craig
@WaterGirl: Viggo Mortensen is perfect as Aragorn.
noncarborundum
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: I watched MMTC in first run and remember liking it. I caught up with a few episodes on YouTube a couple of years back and couldn’t believe how bad it had gotten in the intervening years.
trollhattan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: They reworked the talking car schtick for “Night Rider.”
VOR
Harvey Weinstein bad-mouthed Ashley Judd and Mira Sorvino to Peter Jackson. I’ve always wondered which LOTR roles they were up for since there really are only 3 sizable female roles: Galadriel (Cate Blanchett), Arwen (Liv Tyler), and Eowyn (Miranda Otto). I could see Mira Sorvino as either Arwen or Galadriel since she is tall (5’10”). Ashley Judd could have been Eowyn. Personally, I think the actors actually cast were awesome and would not change.
Sean Connery was supposedly approached about Gandalf, but I think Ian McKellen was just iconic in the role.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Actually Clooney was one of the guys up for the character Brad Pitt played in Thelma and Louise. Gina Davis apparently thought Brad Pitt was so hot she said “that’s the guy” when Pitt auditioned and the director cast him on the spot. Later when Gina met Clooney for the second time she didn’t recognize him at first and then he reminded her that he’d auditioned for the part with her and said something along the lines of “I hate that Brad Pitt guy for stealing that part from me.” That’s how hot Brad Pitt was back then, he made Gina Davis forget George frickin Clooney
Wyatt Salamanca
Some interesting roles that were turned down:
Burt Lancaster turned down the role of Judah Ben-Hur, Rod Steiger turned down the role of George S. Patton, and Albert Finney turned down the role of Lawrence of Arabia.
WaterGirl
@Obvious Russian Troll: I could see Michael Keaton as batman.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: I remember going to see The Fellowship of the Ring with a male friend who was straight, but at one point during the movie, whispered to me “Is it possible to be bi but only for one person?”
Citizen Alan
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: I can only assume the script went through a lot of rewrites between Stallone and Murphy. That or the director just told Murphy to start improvising lines whenever a scene started getting boring.
WaterGirl
@Alison Rose: That’s funny!
kalakal
Tom Sellick was first choice for 2 films at the same time. He turned down Raiders of the Lost Ark as he thought the plot was absurd and the film would bomb and opted for the starring role in High Road to China. He wanted to be in action movie and they’re both set in the same period, same type of character, he just hated the supernatural elements
RSA
Apparently Al Pacino was offered the role of Han Solo in Star Wars. He could do the swagger. I’m thinking the switch would probably have been a wash. One possible risk is that Pacino might have tried to inject more depth into the character, but that would have been a mistake.
Citizen Alan
@Amir Khalid: Indeed. The only reason X-Files lasted as long as it did was that Duchovny stood by Anderson when she got pregnant and Fox wanted to write her out. Sorbo would have forced her out after the first season rather than share the screen with a strong female character.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Citizen Alan: a cursory search on the internet indicates Stallone tried to rewrite the movie as a taut tension filled action and they canned him because they wanted it to be a comedy heavy action comedy. The movie hasn’t aged super well but at the time it came out I thought it was about the funniest thing I’d ever seen.
SpaceUnit
@kalakal:
I just recently discovered the Jesse Stone film series with Tom Sellick. (I live in a cave) I actually think they’re really good.
Matt McIrvin
@frosty fred: The thing about Shirley Temple as Dorothy is, reading L. Frank Baum’s Oz books, especially the later ones, I can totally see it. John R. Neill’s illustrations for the books after the first one even make her look more like Shirley Temple.
They did go in a better direction, I think. But there’s textual support if they’d made that choice.
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
Hard as it is to imagine anyone but Reeve in that role, can you even imagine early 80s (oh, no, it was 70s, wasn’t it?) Schwarzenegger tucked into those shorts?
“Kneel before Zod!”
“Fackyoo”
Would not have been a hit.
I would fight and skin a pride of lions for the chance to see 10 Seconds of a Burt Reynolds ‘Superman’. He would totally have kept the moustache.
oldgold
Burt Reynolds turned down these roles:
Michael Corleone in The Godfather;
James Bond (after Sean Connery retired);
Richard Gere’s role in Pretty Woman;
Jack Nicholson’s role in One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nest;
Jack Nicholson’s role in Terms of Endearment;
Bruce Willis’s role in Die Hard; and,
Hans Solo in Star Wars.
And, I am glad he did.
Mallard Filmore
@Alison Rose:
How much of that is in the control of the director? If John Travolta hammed it up too much, could he have been guided to do a better job?
John’s a Big Name, so maybe not. If a lesser light hammed it up, can directors really stamp their vision on the acting?
Citizen Alan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: You mock George Clooney as Batman, but that film was the moment I realized Clooney was going to become a major star. Because for nearly everyone else in the cast, the film was a career derailing disaster. Yet through all the latex and nipples, Clooney somehow managed to act. His scenes with Michael Gough as the dying Alfred were probably the best acting scenes in a Batman film before Christian Bale took over.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: wasn’t he the producer?
lots of hating on Shirley in this thread. No likey
WaterGirl
@RSA: You’re right that Pacino could do the swagger, but he couldn’t have pulled off the charm and the sweet smile.
dm
Here’s one for SpaceUnit: Tom Cruise instead of Robert Downey in Iron Man.
OJ Simpson instead of Arnold Schwarzenegger in The Terminator.
Frank Sinatra instead of Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry.
Al Pacino instead of Harrison Ford in Star Wars.
Jim Carrey instead of Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean.
All from https://www.storypick.com/original-casting-ideas/
Alison Rose
@Mallard Filmore: I’m sure it is to a point, but we’ve all seen movies where someone just did not do the role justice.
zhena gogolia
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: jerry van Dyke was brilliant on Coach
Geminid
The producers of the movie South Pacific (1958) originally intended that Mary Martin reprise the role of Nellie Forbush she had played in the 1949 Broadway hit. Then co-star Enzio Pina died suddenly in May, 1957, and it was decided to cast someone else as Nellie Forbush. Doris Day turned down the part, Elizabeth Taylor did not pass the screen test, and the part was given to Mitzi Gaynor.
Gaynor and Ray Walston were the only actors whose singing was not dubbed.
WaterGirl
@SpaceUnit: I have seen them all. They really are good. There’s one that I found confusing because they kind of merged the plots of two of the books into one of the TV movies.
I liked the haunting music in those movies, too.
RSA
@WaterGirl: Oh, good point. I was forgetting how well Harrison Ford did boyish appeal.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: Reading the books again, I actually think Viggo Mortensen is too pretty to be Tolkien’s Aragorn. He should initially come off as scruffy and disreputable, maybe a little pop-eyed and goofy-looking, and being that radiantly handsome doesn’t quite jibe with that.
zhena gogolia
Am I the only person here who has no idea who Stuart Townsend is?
trollhattan
@RSA: The battle over casting Pacino in “Godfather” was epic and one wonders what would have happened if Ryan O’Neil, Evans’ choice, would have been cast instead.
Citizen Alan
@VOR: McKellen was an iconic Gandalf. But as a friend pointed out to me, if Connery had done LotR, it would have freed up McKellen to play Dumbledore, and we could have had the same Dumbledore across all eight movies instead of the tonal shift that came from replacing Richard Harris with Michael Gambon.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl: And by all accounts, you will in the upcoming Flash movie.
SpaceUnit
@dm:
The only one of those I can see is Frank Sinatra as Dirty Harry. He probably could have pulled it off.
trollhattan
@Matt McIrvin: Marty Feldman!
Tony Jay
@Alison Rose:
I may have to give it a go. Come to think of it, haven’t they redone Interview as a TV series? I can alternate episodes.
Amir Khalid
@Citizen Alan:
Fun fact: Michael Gough was born in my hometown, Kuala Lumpur.
raven
@SpaceUnit: He was really good in Born on the Fourth of July.
Leslie
@dm: I think The Sting would suck with Nicholson in Newman’s role. There are probably other actors who could have done Redford’s role, but I wouldn’t change the rest of the casting.
kalakal
John Wayne played the part of Genghiz Khan in The Conqueror. Anyone would have been better.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: The only Schwarzenegger movie I really liked was Kindergarten Cop.
There was some Burt Reynolds movie with Goldie Hawn, I think, where they ended up together and they are getting married at a justice of the peace, who speaks with a really strong accent.
For their vows, they are having to repeat after him and they don’t know what the words are so they just mimic the sounds. Very funny scene, I wish I knew what movie that was. I would watch it again.
SpaceUnit
@WaterGirl:
Yeah, they have an odd melancholy charm. And some of the cinematography is great.
Shana
@GrannyMC: It’s still one of the shittiest movies ever made.
VOR
@Citizen Alan: I remember seeing Sir Patrick Stewart on some talk show. Harry Potter came up and he was a little annoyed that practically every UK actor was in it except for him and his friend Ian McKellen. Apparently they were never approached.
Wyatt Salamanca
James Caan turned down the roles of Popeye Doyle in The French Connection, R.P. McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now, and Roy Neary in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
oldster
@VOR:
“Sean Connery was supposedly approached about Gandalf, but I think Ian McKellen was just iconic in the role.”
He is now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5CX00i4uZE
zhena gogolia
Tom Selleck
Geena Davis
Ezio Pinza
Ryan O’Neal
Cesar Romero
just sayin
Citizen Alan
@kalakal: Did Selleck turn down Raiders? I’d always thought he got the part after Magnum PI got cancelled, but then there was so much buzz about him getting cast in a huge Spielberg movie that CBS exercised an option and forced him to come back for an extra season. (Which always annoyed me because the first series finale for Magnum PI was incredible (spoiler? Magnum is dies in the first minute of the episode and then spends the rest of it solving his own murder as a ghost before finding closure with all his friends and walking off into the afterlife), while the second was just meh.
RSA
@trollhattan: Funny, I was thinking about Risky Business, too. Cruise might have been replaced by an early-80s heartthrob, but it’s hard to imagine anyone doing it much better. I’d also defend the casting of Collateral, in part because it wouldn’t matter much who played his role—Jamie Foxx would have stolen those scenes from anyone. :-)
zhena gogolia
@Amir Khalid: he’s wonderful in Horror of Dracula
Brachiator
@Tony Jay:
Caesar Romero kept his moustache while playing the Joker in the Batman TV series.
Henry Cavill kept his moustache in Batman vs Superman. They digitally removed it.
SpaceUnit
@raven:
Again, it’s been so long that I can hardly remember. I don’t recall being overwhelmed. But different strokes for different folks.
kalakal
Not miscasting, he was actually really good but…
Timothy Dalton played Rochester in a 1980s TV version of Jane Eyre.
After he’s blinded and when Jane comes to visit him he’s bemoaning how no woman could love him as he’s so hideous. Every woman I knew disagreed with this opinion
WaterGirl
@RSA: Yes! Boyish appeal was what I was trying to get at, but couldn’t find the words. Thank you!
WaterGirl
@Matt McIrvin: Fight me. :-)
trollhattan
@kalakal: See you and raise Chuck Conners as Geronimo in one of the “Geronimos.”
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
Best Friends? I confess I haven’t seen it. Loved Reynolds in most things, though. Few other actors could play the charming rogue with such naturalness. Cheeks like a well-rubbed apple and a glint in the eye.
WaterGirl
@zhena gogolia: Nope.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: Snort! Derisive laughter…
WaterGirl
@Citizen Alan: What Flash movie?
Kristine
I recall reading that Claudette Colbert was originally cast as Margo Channing in All About Eve, but she injured her back during work on a previous film. Anyway, she had to pull out of the picture and the role was given to Bette Davis.
This explains why Anne Baxter’s Eve Harrington looks nothing like Channing even though she idolized her and wanted to be like her. Eve’s appearance was patterned on Colbert–the similarities are riveting. I don’t know why they didn’t remake Eve’s clothing etc. Maybe they didn’t have time.
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: I don’t hate Shirley Temple, but I think the film would have played very differently with Temple at age 11 in place of Judy Garland at age 17. If nothing else, I can’t see Shirley Temple’s cover of Somewhere Over the Rainbow becoming a gay anthem decades later.
SpaceUnit
Okay, Jack Nicholson has done some great work but I really didn’t care for him in As Good as it Gets. He just didn’t seem like the right romantic fit with Helen Hunt. It was sort of creepy.
dm
@SpaceUnit: Same here.
Jim Carrey instead of Johnny Depp, and Pirates of the Caribbean would have no sequels.
Pacino instead of Ford has been discussed, but with that role change I think the subsequent films would have gone a slightly different way: no Solo/Leia romance, Pacino playing Solo the way Bogart, Spanish Civil War vet, played Rick — “there are parts of Corellia I wouldn’t recommend you march into, Major”.
Craig
@trollhattan: absolutely. He’s also great in Edge of Tomorrow.
delphinium
Some actors who turned down the role of James Bond included:
Cary Grant- he felt that at 55 he was too old for the role
Richard Burton-While Bond author Ian Fleming was a huge fan, Burton wasn’t sure the character would transfer well to film.
Christian Bale-While Producer Barbara Broccoli said the role was “his for the asking” the actor wasn’t interested, since he felt Bond represented “every despicable stereotype about England and British actors.” He is reported to have added, “I already played a serial killer” referring to his role in American Psycho.
schrodingers_cat
Is it just me or are these Medium Cool threads very white and skew old…
Is the average blog age 70
Most of the references fly over my head.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Citizen Alan: That’s what happened to Pierce Brosnan – he was up for Bond and the publicity surrounding that lead NBC to extend Remington Steele, which they’d planned to cancel, for another season. So the role went to Timothy Dalton. Then to Brosnan a couple films later.
Citizen Alan
@kalakal: To be fair, he probably paid for it with his life, since he and half the cast died of cancer as a result of using a former nuclear test site as the filming location.
Splitting Image
Arnold Schwarzenegger was considered for the part of Fezzik in The Princess Bride because they had some trouble getting time in Andre the Giant’s schedule. Arnie was probably a better actor overall, but there is no way he could have made Fezzik as likeable as Andre did.
Weirdly, Danny DeVito was considered for Vezzini at one point, and got cast opposite Arnie in Twins a year or so after The Princess Bride came out.
Tony Jay
@Brachiator:
I’d suggest that they couldn’t have cut the moustache, at that time it was as much a star as Burt himself, but then I remember Slap Shot and, of course, the film where Ned Beaty developed his distaste for method actors.
It was a while before I found out about Cavill’s ‘tache situation in Justice League. I just thought he looked a bit Uncanny Valley.
zhena gogolia
@Citizen Alan: Shirley could not have sung Over the Rainbow. OTOH Judy was too old
BretH
@delphinium: let me add “Edge if Tomorrow” where Cruise starts out as a slimy coward and gets better.
Craig
@dm: that would have gotten weird, since The Sting is basically Butch and Sundance Ride Again.
oldster
@Tony Jay:
“Few other actors could play the charming rogue with such naturalness. ”
I think you misspelled James Garner’s name, ’cause that describes him to a T.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@SpaceUnit:
@WaterGirl:
Agreed. I like his brooding version of Jesse Stone, and in general I like the adaptations. Robert Parker is kind of a guilty pleasure around our house, and we enjoy the posthumous continuations of most of his series. I actually like post-Parker Spenser books better than Parker’s.
WaterGirl
@raven: That’s the movie where I realized that Tom <s>Hanks</s> CRUISE! wasn’t just a pretty boy (the he isn’t the kind of good looking the appeals to me).
That’s when I realized he could act.
Brachiator
@Baud:
As with many movies, getting the movie made involved a number of twists and turns.
Michael Douglas got an Oscar as producer of the Best Film of the year.
Citizen Alan
@kalakal: Speaking of Dalton, he only got Bond (as I understand it) because Pierce Brosnan got pulled back into an additional (and very bad) season of Remington Steele.
Matt McIrvin
I’ve heard rumors that Martin Landau was under consideration for Spock on Star Trek. He probably could have pulled it off fine, maybe as well as Nimoy.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: Yes! thank you.
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
The one coming out as soon as WB have ironed out Ezra Miller’s issues with being a fucking loon. It’s sort of based on the Flash-centric DC series Flashpoint and has Keaton reprising his Batman role, or at least a Batman role.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl: Assuming the question was not meant in jest, Warner Brothers is apparently proceeding with the release of The Flash despite Ezra Miller’s ongoing efforts to wreck his own career. It’s based on the Flashpoint storyline and apparently features Keaton as an old Batman. (Or possibly as the Thomas Wayne Batman from the Flashpoint Comics series).
Tony Jay
@oldster:
He’s one of the ‘few’.
Also the possessor of a fine set of rosy checks, which his daughter inherited.
JR
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: Not only that, they eventually made Stallone’s version. It was called Cobra.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@BretH: Cruise was also hilarious in Tropic Thunder though it was a minor role.
lee
Tom Cruise was incredible in Tropic Thunder.
He also did a good job as an assassin with Jamie Fox (forget the movie)
Baud
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Agree on Tropic thunder
TooManyJens
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
That last season of Remington Steele sucked, too.
dm
@Leslie: You’re probably right. I think it wouldn’t have been as charming, but the Newman role could have been the sort of borderline sleazy that I think Nicholson would have brought to the role.
Anoniminous
@ian:
Rumor says Daniel Day-Lewis, Stuart Townsend (who got the part & then was booted — thank goddess!,) Russell Crowe, Vin Diesel, Nicolas Cage (and wouldn’t that have been a disaster?) before they hired Viggo Mortensen.
zhena gogolia
@Tony Jay: I don’t think she’s his daughter or are you joking?
Ab
Robert DeNiro was supposed to play Josh Baskin in Big. Tom Hanks did it a little better than he would have I think.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: @Citizen Alan:
I think the only Batman movie I have seen was something about Origin Story. ??
I was never into comic books but I have watched Flash and Arrow and Batman and some of the other shows like that on TV. But I have no idea what the Flashpoint storyline line is.
If they make that movie, and I watch it, would it make any sense to me if I never followed the comic books or earlier Batman movies?
Matt McIrvin
@Citizen Alan: It sounds like the true function of the movie is to reboot the DC universe to clear the decks for whatever they’re doing next (much like the comics story it was based on), so they may see Ezra Miller’s Flash as a disposable one-off anyway even though he’s the title character.
dm
@schrodingers_cat: Most of the references fly over my head, too, but mostly because I mostly stopped watching movies and television in the mid 1970s.
Craig
@Mallard Filmore: Robert Zemeckis could definitely smack Travolta around.
kalakal
Highlander’s casting was odd in that you had a French actor (Christopher Lambert) playing a Scotsman and a Scotsman ( Sean Connery who never bothers to change his accent * ) playing a Spaniard
* See also Sean Bean
WaterGirl
@TooManyJens:
Remington Steele was a fun show, but I don’t have any specific memory of the last season.
Nice to see you here!
MagdaInBlack
@oldster: I’ve had a crush on James Garner since I was a kid ❤️
Baud
@WaterGirl:
I liked it too.
AliceBlue
When To Kill a Mockingbird was being cast, the studio seriously considered Rock Hudson for the Atticus Finch role. Bing Crosby also wanted the part.
Robert Redford was offered the part of Guy Woodhouse in Rosemary’s Baby but turned it down. The suits at Paramount also pushed Redford for the part of Michael Corleone(!)
Amir Khalid
@Citizen Alan:
Fox was unhappy with Anderson from the beginning: they wanted someone taller and blonder, someone more like their idea of a beautiful woman e.g. Pamela Anderson (shudder). Apparently they also wanted Scully to always walk three steps behind Mulder. And they started Gillian off on a third of Duchovny’s pay.
I tell you all, Pamela could never have gone toe-to-toe with Brad Dourif in an episode the way Gillian did. Nor could Pamela ever have caused The Scully Effect.
WaterGirl
@dm: Didn’t you go through a phase where you liked to watch “old movies”? I certainly did when I was in my 30s.
Tony Jay
@zhena gogolia:
Isn’t Jennifer Garner the daughter of James Garner?
Citizen Alan
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Tropic Thunder was a really great comedy. But it could have been one of the all-time classics if only Ben Stiller’s ego would have allowed him to cast someone else as the star, because he was the weakest part of the film. Specifically, it should have been someone who could both plausibly have once been an action hero but who wasn’t afraid to do broad comedy. That was before John Cena took up acting, but he would have been legendary in that role.
zhena gogolia
@Tony Jay: no
Citizen Alan
@TooManyJens: Well, they “ended” the series with the two leads resolving their years-long romantic tension by getting married. And then, they brought them back as a married couple and it was completely boring.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Tony Jay: Is she? I never knew that! Actually I think you’re pulling out legs.
delphinium
@BretH: Yeah, I had forgotten about that movie and agree. Also, as others have mentioned, he was decent in Collateral, thought it was mostly due to playing off Jamie Foxx.
Tony Jay
@kalakal:
A Scotsman playing an Egyptian with a Spanish name and a Japanese sword.
A great terrible film.
Alison Rose
I don’t know if anyone else here cares but Harry just won best pop vocal album and I’m very happy :D
ETA Oh yeah, uh, OT or something
Matt McIrvin
@kalakal: I’ve always thought Timothy Dalton was poorly served by his two Bond movies–they’re not really standouts (though I know some Bond fans love them), but Dalton is an amazing comic actor, which really comes out in Hot Fuzz. He’s great in Flash Gordon too. But his Bond was deliberately played relatively straight, which I’m not sure took best advantage of his talents.
Brachiator
Wesley Snipes tried to get a Black Panther movie made as early as 1992 and was still attached to the project until at least 1997.
Some studio idiots in Hollywood thought he was trying to make a film about the Black Panther Party.
WaterGirl
@AliceBlue:
Rosemary’s Baby may have been the last creepy movie / show I have watched. I don’t do creepy. The stuff of nightmares. Shudder.
zhena gogolia
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: NO
WaterGirl
@Brachiator: Snort. Idiots.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl: The second or third season of the Flash series covered the basic premise. Upon learning that he can run fast enough to time travel, Barry goes back in time and saves his mother from being killed. This a ripple effect on the time stream with disastrous results in the present day. (As in, the new “present” features a devastating global war between the Amazons and the Atlanteans, Superman doesn’t exist, and Bruce Wayne’s father is Batman after 8yo Bruce is killed instead). I have no idea how much of that will make it into the movie.
zhena gogolia
@Matt McIrvin: Mr Skinnah!
Tony Jay
@WaterGirl:
The Flash messes with history, which butterfly affects the DC universe into a grimdark mess. He has to fix his fuck-up before the world gets deep-sixed by the feuding superhumans he used to call friends.
It’ll make sense in context.
Baud
@Tony Jay:
Great, more CRT shoved down our throats.
Craig
@Tony Jay: I saw Smokey and The Bandit in the theater last year for the 45th anniversary. He’s so fantastic in that movie. The whole movie is fantastic.
Amir Khalid
@trollhattan:
How about the movie of The Good Earth, Pearl Buck’s novel about a Chinese family, being made with a cast of only white actors?
Michael Bersin
@Matt McIrvin:
Martin Landau and Barbara Bain ended up in Space:1999.
Matt McIrvin
@Tony Jay: And the deep background is that, in the comics, The Flash’s books were basically where the whole idea of a multiverse first infected the world of superheroes.
Martin
@SpaceUnit:
He was a good fit for Edge of Tomorrow as well.
Problem with this thesis is that virtually all modern Tom Cruise films only exist because of Tom Cruise as producer, so any effort to test the hypothesis requires the film never get made to begin with. As such, in this problem space Tom Cruise is the best possible actor for the role.
Omnes Omnibus
@kalakal: He wasn’t Spanish. He was Egyptian.
Splitting Image
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Speaking of Blazing Saddles, the part of the Waco Kid was offered to John Wayne, who politely turned it down. It was then offered to Gig Young, who turned out to be an aging alcoholic in real life and was subsequently fired.
Gene Wilder was the third choice. I’m not sure if Young could have done as well with the part as he did, but I’m sure that John Wayne couldn’t.
Geminid
@Brachiator: Burt Reynolds was a pretty good blacksmith in Gunsmoke. He did not have a mustache, perhaps because he was younger, and his character Quince was half-Native.
This was somewhat of a beefcake role. The muscular Quince did his blacksmithing outdoors, in a sleeveless shirt.
Leslie
@dm: Borderline sleazy is the perfect phrase to capture Nicholson, I think. But imo, the film benefits from the contrast of Newman’s roguish charm and fundamental decency with Shaw’s icy menace.
Ivan X
William Friedkin’s Sorceror I believe was supposed to go to Steve McQueen but the director hardheadedly refused to accede to one of Steve’s requests and Roy Scheider got it instead. Would have been better with McQueen, but it still would have been a flawed but intriguing remake of The Wages of Fear, and it probably still would have tanked. But, who knows?
I think Bad Santa had James Gandolfini, Bill Murray, and Robert De Niro all interested in playing the lead, but of course it would be unimaginable for it to have been anyone but Billy Bob Thornton, who conquered it with disturbing conviction.
phein63
@Craig: I like Viggo as Aragorn, but I always pictured Strider the Ranger the way I do Corwin of Amber: taller, with a longer face and black hair, and a lot of no-BS to him. Perhaps a younger Alan Rickman on heels (although I think he was tied up with a different series), or better yet, Adam Driver with an understated empathy.
kalakal
@Matt McIrvin: I’d agree. Those Bond films were when the franchise was at a low ebb, financially and in terms of ideas which is why, by Bond standards, they’re gritty & down to earth. I actually thought he actually did pretty well, he’s a very versatile actor. If you want to see him really enjoy himself see The Rocketeer – it’s the Hot Fuzz part on steroids
WaterGirl
@Citizen Alan: Ah, thank you so much. I didn’t know that name referred to that.
Matt McIrvin
Stanley Kubrick initially cast HAL 9000’s voice as Martin Balsam, had Balsam record the whole part. HAL had a gruff Noo Yawk accent and a very emotional delivery. Kubrick changed his mind at the last minute and brought in Douglas Rain on the strength of his narration in a science documentary.
WaterGirl
@Tony Jay: Thank you, that helps a lot.
Martin
I have a meta question to the thread.
I always interpreted this as a series on culture that intended to focus on how media is both a product of and reflection of culture. I don’t find it usually does that and instead serves more as a retrospective of what we experienced.
Did I miss the point? I don’t usually see cultural examination showing up in these threads. But I’m willing to be the weird outlier here.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
“I can’t fucking do that, Dave.”
ETA: fixed quote
kalakal
@Tony Jay:
@Omnes Omnibus:
I was fooled by his accent
Tony Jay
@Baud:
In spades! Lesbian armies, man-fish supremacists, non-white cyborgs flaunting their jive talk in the White House. It’s everything Tucker ever warned us about and more!
@Craig:
And that laugh!
@Matt McIrvin:
And they’re in the process of bringing the whole thing back again after decades of farting around. It’s just too good a concept not to utilise. Even the MCU is going for it.
Can the Crime Syndicate be far away? Red Rain Batman?
Martin
@Splitting Image: Well, John Wayne wouldn’t have been able to internalize the film as a critique. He was a huge racist. Hard to make comedy off of that unless it’s coming at his personal expense.
So thankful we have an airport named after that asshole.
Leslie
@Craig: That film was the first time I understood why Burt Reynolds was considered sexy.
Gvg
@schrodingers_cat: Old TV and movies were pretty white. Music was more diverse. Not sure why but it was real, so even non white Americans, mostly saw white on TV until gradually there were breakthroughs. Uhura on Star Trek etc.
When we get on old nostalgia trips, it will trend white, tho actually not all of the ones so far have been. Anything older than the 60’s is probably white.
SpaceUnit
@Martin:
Yeah. I really didn’t mean to pick fights over Tom Cruise. I just don’t personally find him a very convincing actor.
He was okay in The Outsiders. I guess.
trollhattan
@schrodingers_cat: I’d respond but, hey look, tapioca!
phein63
@WaterGirl: The movies I liked to watch in the early 1960s are now older than commercial movies, period. It’s hard to explain to my 20-something offspring that “The Adventures of Robin Hood” from 1938 was still as vital in 1968 as it is today. “The Third Man” is 73 years old! I’ve had some limited success, in that all of my kids love “And Then There Were None” from 1945, but they still can’t grok “It Happened One Night.”
Maybe it’s just me not catching up with TikTok or whatever the kids are doing these days.
dm
@WaterGirl: Well, yes, but I did that in the 70s, in between college terms.
Matt McIrvin
Oh, yeah, and speaking of voice acting, all of Shrek’s dialogue in Shrek was basically recorded three times. The part was originally supposed to be Chris Farley’s, but he died when it was almost completely done. And once they recast it with Mike Myers, he recorded the entire movie before he decided that he wanted to go back and do it again with a Scottish accent, because, as is well known, to Mike Myers a Scottish accent is the funniest thing in the world.
(was just reminded of this by the “Mr. Sunday Movies” guys on YouTube)
trollhattan
@Ivan X: Billy Bob: “I need to get into characokaylet’sgo.”
Like replacing Pierce Brosnan for Jeff Bridges as the Dude, one does not mess with perfection.
Doug R
@artem1s:
I saw parts of that documentary The Captains where William Shatner interviewed other actors that played Star Trek captains.
Those long hours basically destroyed Kate’s marriage.
kalakal
Louise Fletcher got the part of Nurse Ratched after Anne Bancroft, Angela Lansbury, and a couple of others whose names elude me turned it down. While both Bancroft & espescially Lansbury could have been good in the role I find it difficult to imagine anyone could have been better than Fletcher
WaterGirl
@Martin:
I would say that this (below) generally describes where we were coming from when I first approached BGinChi about this series.
Culture as a Hedge Against This Soul-Sucking Political Miasma We’re Living In
I wouldn’t say that the intention was to focus on how media is both a product of and reflection of culture, but it has been at time, and certainly can be a piece of what we do here.
Next week we’ll be talking about The Autobiography of Malcolm X and the impact it had on many of us who read it.
The week after that will be the beginning of a (loosely) once a month for 6 months series where Subaru Diane will be guest posting about Dorothy Sayers and Agatha Christie with (mostly) material she is putting together for a class will be teaching.
If you would like to write something up to start a conversation how media is both a product of and reflection of culture, I would be happy to have that from you as a guest post on Medium Cool.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
Apparently Anthony Michael Hall was intended to play Ferris Bueller but he passed on the role so it went to Matthew Broderick. Also to stick with John Hughes affiliated actors apparently John Cryer was considered for the role of Chandler on Friends.
SpaceUnit
@Martin:
Sometimes we wish to discuss how media is both a product of and reflection of culture.
Other times we just wanna talk shit.
Steeplejack
@SpaceUnit:
I’m not a big Tom Selleck fan, but the Jesse Stone movies are good.
Doug R
@Citizen Alan: The irony of Beverly Hills Cop getting nominated for a best original screenplay Oscar is that apparently Eddie DID ad-lib most of his schtick.
Martin
@SpaceUnit: He’s like Keanu Reeves. Both actors are really good at playing themselves. Not so much playing other people.
trollhattan
@Tony Jay: No, but her mother is English.
I’ll see myself out.
kalakal
@phein63: I have the same problem.
Trying to convince them that Cary Grant was the perfect light comedy actor and they’d really like Arsenic and Old Lace or Bringing up Baby is the hill I died on
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin:
I am sure we are all interneting wrong again. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Gin & Tonic
@Martin: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
delphinium
@Ivan X: Yes, Billy Bob Thornton was great in that role.
kalakal
@WaterGirl: I’m really looking forward to Subaru Diane’s series
CaseyL
@WaterGirl:
Ah – that would explain why you didn’t know Michael Keaton has in fact been Batman. It was a wildly controversial casting decision at the time, since he was known more for goofy comedies, but turned out Keaton was perfect in the role.
The thing about Tom Cruise is, he’s a good action film actor. I find him creepy as hell as a human being, but I’ve enjoyed the action films he’s done.
Travolta’s another Hollywood Scientologist, but he doesn’t creep me out like Cruise does – and he plays a damn good villain (Broken Arrow, Face/Off). I think he has a sense of humor about himself, which is a saving grace, and one I think Cruise does not share.
stinger
Raymond Burr auditions for the role of Perry Mason — and so does William Hopper (ultimately cast as Paul Drake): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8P8Wf8YeBA
Doug R
@oldgold: After making Deliverance with Burt Reynolds, apparently John Boorman wanted him for the lead in Zardoz. But Burt didn’t like the story and Sean Connery was ready to stretch past Bond so we got that iconic mankini.
WaterGirl
@Martin: If you click on the link in my first response to you, you’ll find all the Medium Cool posts since its inception.
If you do, I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts on whether the Medium Cool posts fit into your picture of, well, the Medium Cool series.
SpaceUnit
@Martin:
I think you hit it on the head. I always get the impression that Cruise is playing the exact same character but just in different circumstances.
WaterGirl
@CaseyL:
Good to know!
raven
raven
@Martin: I don’t think it’s intended to be anything, it is what we make it.
WaterGirl
@stinger: wow, that’s a real find! Thanks for sharing that.
CaseyL
Oh and I do have a who-else-might-have-been to contribute: anyone here who is an MCU fan probably knows that Tom Hiddleston originally auditioned for the Thor role.
There’s an audition tape of him, blond and ripped, yelling and brandishing the Hammer. But the minute Chris Hemsworth showed up, it was all over. But the producers loved him, and thought he’d make a great Loki (and they were absolutely right.)
@WaterGirl: Yup. Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992) – the latter also being where Michelle Pfeiffer made an indelible mark as Catwoman. Highly recommend both!
phein63
@kalakal: After I took them to the Air & Space Museum on the Mall in DC, they were ready to watch “The Spirit of St. Louis” with Jimmy Stewart. I think they need an external validation other than the old guy who voluntarily watches black-and-white movies.
trollhattan
@CaseyL: Keaton as Batman I thought was brilliant. Comedians and primarily comedic actors have a dark side they counter with comedy, and a script and director who can plumb that will be amply rewarded. Robin Williams had a chilling role in “One-Hour Photo” that creeped me the hell out. A bold role and an excellent one.
phein63
@kalakal: My revenge is that my grandchildren love to watch “I, Claudius” and “The Prisoner,” even though they aren’t really old enough to understand the dialogue. I hope to live long enough to hear their informed critiques.
Doug R
@Citizen Alan: I would argue that Tropic Thunder was more of a swipe at short guys that bulked up and played action stars like Sylvester Stallone and to a lesser extent John-Claude Van Damme.
Tony G
@dm: That’s pretty funny. So he hooked up with Neil Young and formed Buffalo Springfield instead.
zhena gogolia
@kalakal: Those really aren’t two of his best. Although I love the dressing gown scene in BUB
zhena gogolia
Apropos of nothing, I am devouring The Jewel in the Crown. What a festival of great acting all around.
kalakal
Trivia: Basil Rathbone was known as a Shakespearean actor in England when he tried his luck in Hollywood. He got parts in adaptions of Dickens and such but nothing really big when he heard that the new Errol Flynn flick ( Captain Blood) was casting for a villain who could pretend to sword fight. He turned up with his own sword and announced he was the British Army Fencing Champion*. He got the part and went on to swash his buckle for most of the rest of his career. As he was nearly always the villain he hardly ever won the climatic duels ( Captain Blood, The Adventures of Robin Hood, The Mask of Zorro etc etc) despite being the only person in the duel who could actually use a sword
* This was true
Omnes Omnibus
@kalakal:
I would argue that his actual skill at fencing was used to to make his opponents look good. He also was awarded an MC for his service during WWI.
Craig
@CaseyL: I think Tom Cruise is totally self aware now. He has a weird sense of humor, but he sees the joke of being Tom Cruise in a Tom Cruise movie. I’ve come around to his weird creepy self since the second Mission Impossible flick.
Matt McIrvin
Speaking of Batman, Lyle Waggoner (who would later play Steve Trevor on Wonder Woman) did screen tests as Batman for the 1966 TV show. He did fine, but Adam West somehow found exactly the right amount of deadpan to use for the silly comedy punchlines, and that was what got him the part.
SpaceUnit
@raven:
I did not know the movie was based on an actual person.
But I do realize that a soldier who actually experienced the horrors of war in Vietnam might view that film quite differently than some young and mostly emotionally disconnected person who saw it as nothing but entertainment, just blithely watching it while stuffing popcorn into their mouth. Or in other words someone like me.
kalakal
@Omnes Omnibus: Absolutely it was, he was that good he could make a complete novice look good
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
@Baud:
Ken Kesey wrote “Nest” in the early 60s to which a younger Kirk Douglas bought the rights and played the lead on stage, but he was unable to get studios to finance a film. 15 years went by and Kirk gave the property to his son Michael who produced the film, winning an oscar, (his dad never won one), and he asked his dad to play the role but he turned it down saying he was now too old for the role. Michael Was close friends with Danny Devito and launched his successful career by giving him a role in “Nest”.
Chief Oshkosh
@oldster: Yep. James Garner, wildly underrated IMO.
raven
@SpaceUnit: Ron Kovic, he was also the inspiration for John Voight’s character in “Coming Home”. I was lucky enough to meet Ron in a bookstore in Hermosa Beach many moons ago.
Craig
@Tony Jay: that laugh with that grin is just total movie star stuff. You can’t teach it.
I didn’t understand your reference to Slap Shot on another comment.
zhena gogolia
@kalakal: He was great. I once saw his son Rodion introduce one of the Sherlock Holmes movies at Yale.
kalakal
@phein63: Congrats, they’re both great.
@zhena gogolia: I find it almost impossible to pick a favourite Cary Grant movie ( probably Charade but I also love watching him and James Mason trying to out smooth each other in North by Northwest) but I do find those too hilarious
delphinium
Sylvester Stallone turned down the role of John Book in the movie Witness, which thankfully went to Harrison Ford instead. Clint Eastwood and Richard Gere were also considered for the role.
And as another tie in to this thread, it was Viggo Mortensen’s feature film debut.
David 🌈☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
@Splitting Image:
Mel is on record saying he originally offered it to his friend Johnny Carson, but the introverted Carson turned it down.
Mel also wanted Richard Pryor as the sheriff, but they couldn’t get an insurance company to sign off due to his well known drug problem, so they cast Cleavon Little instead.
zhena gogolia
@kalakal: I love him in everything, but for some reason, Arsenic and Old Lace is unwatchable for me.
Omnes Omnibus
@kalakal:
Charade has Audrey Hepburn and Paris. It’s cheating a bit.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: And her clothes!
And George Kennedy, James Coburn, Ned Glass, and Walter Matthau.
And Henry Mancini.
delphinium
@CaseyL:
Yeah, I think Keaton surprised a lot of people with that role.
kalakal
@zhena gogolia: Sheer perfection
Geminid
@Steeplejack: I thought Sellick was good as the title character in the remake of Monte Walsh. Lee Marvin played Walsh in the original version.
The role was right in Selleck’s wheelhouse, as if Magnum P.I. had a doppelganger in an early 20th century Montana cowboy. He was good at it though, and the beautiful setting made it a better movie.
WaterGirl
@SpaceUnit: I am the furthest from an actual soldier as anyone can probably get, but I didn’t see that movie as entertainment. I learned a lot from it.
So interesting that we can all see the same movie and see it hundreds of different ways. That’s part of what makes people, and discussions about culture, so interesting.
kalakal
@delphinium: I thought he was great as Batman, I thought he was awful as Dogberry in Much Ado About Nothing
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia:
It’s like How to Steal a Million. I can overlook everything for the combo of O’Toole, Hepburn, Paris, the E-type, and Hugh Griffith as Hepburn’s incorrigibly dodgy father.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: And her clothes!
WaterGirl
@Chief Oshkosh:
James Garner was definitely one of the great actors of all time.
WaterGirl
@kalakal: Charade is a FANTASTIC movie.
SpaceUnit
@raven:
I just googled him. Wow, an interesting guy. Apparently he won a Golden Globe award for that movie (it was based on his published memoirs).
I just quickly glanced at his Wiki page but I’m going to go back and read some more.
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia:
Less of a draw for me, but, yeah.
Matt McIrvin
@CaseyL:
And part of the context there was that comics geeks in the 1980s saw the jokey, campy 1960s TV show with Adam West as a stain on the legacy of Batman. I think that they were wrong to believe this, but you have to understand that there had not really been a straight live-action screen take on Batman at the time, unless you count ancient serials from the 1940s, so people who weren’t comics geeks didn’t know that Batman was even supposed to be this dark avenger hero, and the comics geeks hated that.
So when they heard that this guy best known for playing disheveled comedy ruffians was going to play Batman, the reaction was “here we go again.” It was just going to be more camp.
Truth be told, the 1989 Batman was pretty campy. But Keaton played Batman himself more or less straight, and dark, as this tightly wound character seemingly always on the verge of a mental breakdown. The fans liked that.
Brachiator
@kalakal:
That’s an easy one. Holiday. No wait. Notorious. No wait. His Girl Friday. Or North by Northwest. Or Philadelphia Story.
SpaceUnit
@WaterGirl:
I watched it more than thirty years ago, when I was much younger and distracted and clueless and when life was moving around me at a breathless pace.
I honestly don’t remember it terribly well.
raven
@SpaceUnit:
Ron Kovic, the war veteran who inspired two iconic Bruce Springsteen songs
SpaceUnit
@raven:
I still don’t like Tom Cruise tho.
patrick II
@GrannyMC:
Travolta did a nice job playing a man of less-than-average intelligence in “Phenomenon” in 1996. The character suddenly became a genius and then drifted back into a less capable person. Not an easy part and Travolta played it well. Tom Hanks owns the role of Forrest Gump and I can’t imagine anyone doing it better. But there were worse choices out there than the often-underrated Travolta.
kalakal
Cary Grant was Broccoli and Saltzman’s first choice for James Bond but they wanted to start a franchise and he could only commit to one film. Second choice was the equally suave James Mason but he could only commit to 3 films
https://www.theguardian.com/film/us-news-blog/2012/oct/05/cary-grant-global-james-bond-day
raven
@SpaceUnit: It’s the only film I liked him in.
Annie
OK I am about to commit sacrilege here, but:
supposedly Francis Ford Coppola considered Laurence Oliver for the title role of The Godfather. I don’t know if an offer was ever actually made to Olivier but he was having health problems at that time anyway.
I wish Olivier had been cast.
As it stands, The Godfather is clearly Marlon Brando with a fake Italian accent. Olivier could and usually did totally disappear into his role.
kalakal
@Annie: Judging by his performance as the most terrifying dentist in cinema history I think he would have been awesome
Citizen Alan
@kalakal: He was still better than Keanu Reeves, hilariously miscast as Don Juan the Bastard (and brother to Denzel Washington!). Apparently, Reeves never got the memo that Much Ado was a comedy.
oldgold
George Santos claims he was offered these roles: Rhett Butler, Vito Corleone and Dirty Harry.
delphinium
@Annie:
As one who doesn’t really care much for mafia movies, probably wouldn’t have watched The Godfather even if Laurence Olivier was the star, tempting as that may have been.
kalakal
@Citizen Alan:
True. The other dreadful bit of casting was Ben Elton as Verges. I did enjoy the film, Branagh & Thompson were superb
NotMax
Orson Welles was Coppola’s first choice to play Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. And was also under consideration to play Vito Corleone.
Katherine Hepburn was under consideration for Baby Jane Hudson. She also bought out her studio contract so as not to be cast in Mother Carey’s Chickens.
The role of Eden (Candice Bergen) in The Wind and and the Lion was intended for Ms Hepburn. Same role also turned down by Julie Christie and Faye Dunaway.
@patrick II
That road was paved by Cliff Robertson in Charly.
Citizen Alan
@Matt McIrvin: While camp Batman was passed its prime, I am unbelievably weary of grimdark Batman, especially since his grimdarkness has gradually infected every bit of the DC universe to the point that Flash was retconned into having a grim origin. (Pre-Flashpoint, his parents lived well into his adulthood, but she “retroactively died” when Reverse Flash changed history just to fuck with Barry by murdering his mother and framing his father for it. Flashpoint itself began through Flash’s efforts to undo those changes to history only it went wrong.)
My personal comics philosophy is that Marvel can deal with gritty concepts because the characters are, for the most part, ordinary people who gain super-powers, whereas the DC characters are for the most part gods who deign to protect mortals from various perils. The most mundane member of the Justice League is Batman, who has no powers, so they make up for it be making him the richest and smartest person in the world.
Citizen Alan
@Matt McIrvin: Also, I still say Cesar Romero was my favorite Joker, in that it was the only iteration of the character not to be a serial killer. The only people he ever even tried to kill were Batman and Robin and he always failed.
NotMax
@Citizen Alan
Snapper Carr.
JaySinWA
I am two episodes into Kaepernick’s Killing County. Not sure it is great documentary TV but it might be up Martin’s alley. The cop whose early life was the basis for an uplifting movie becomes one of a pair of corrupt cops in Bakersfield.
Citizen Alan
@kalakal: James Mason was also supposed to have been Hugo Drax in Moonraker, and he might have been able to save the picture. Michael Lonsdale was a crushing bore as the villain.
Citizen Alan
@NotMax: Okay, if we’re going old school, I guess.
NotMax
@NotMax
Speaking of Cliff Robertson (who landed the role), John & Jackie’s choice to portray JFK in PT 109 was Warren Beatty.
Matt McIrvin
@Citizen Alan: I agree. It’s to the point that when the Lego movies brought in Will Arnett as a new comedy version of Batman, he was not Adam West-like at all but was a (hilarious) parody of grimdark Batman.
It’d be nice to bring him back to somewhere around Kevin Conroy’s DCAU Batman: not necessarily a figure of fun but a competent man who can experience a full range of emotions. The animated shows have seemed freer to experiment, even doing lighter things like The Brave and the Bold.
And the funny thing about 1960s Adam West Batman was that it was really pretty accurate to the lighter, goofier era of Silver Age Batman comics that inspired it. The early episodes were directly adapted from comics stories.
oldster
@kalakal:
“I thought he was great as Batman, I thought he was awful as Dogberry in Much Ado About Nothing”
Agreed. Dogberry is a wonderful comic character, and Keaton totally misunderstood the role, and produced anti-comedy as a result. Horrible.
karl
@Wyatt Salamanca: For a taste of Hackman in that vein, watch Scarecrow (also with Al Pacino).
Matt McIrvin
@oldster: I remember thinking Keaton was really funny as Dogberry, but it’s a long time since I’ve seen the movie… and I recently saw the play produced by the National Theatre in London. There, Dogberry is a perpetually befuddled fellow struggling and failing heroically to do the best he can, and I do remember Keaton’s version being this repulsive over-the-top character.
Motivated Seller
Shawshank Redemption (1994): Brad Pitt was originally cast as Tommy, but backed out and was replaced by Gil Bellows. Too bad. Instead Pitt decided to team up with Tom Cruise in Interview With A Vampire. There were a few other interesting choices according to this article:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2019/09/14/brad-pitt-starred-shawshank-redemption-frank-darabont/2268728001/
Eric K
Didn’t read the whole thread to see if this has been mentioned already.
Tom Selleck was the first choice for Raiders of the Lost Ark but he had just committed to Magnum PI and couldn’t do it.
NotMax
John Huston offered one of the non-Bogart roles in The Treasure of the Sierra Madre to Ronald Reagan.
PJ
@Martin: The default comments for any thread here are:
1) I like this thing;
2) I don’t like this thing;
3) This thing happened to me, or, for these particular threads: I saw or read or listened to this thing;
4) remember when Cole injured himself doing this thing.
Sometimes there are comments that contain actual insight, but if you read expecting them, you may be disappointed.
Annie
Cary Grant was supposed to play the lead in a movie called Arabesque, opposite Sophia Loren, in which they stop a plot to murder an Arabian prince. Grant dropped out, and since Sophia Loren wanted to work with Gregory Peck, he took the part. Did not work. Peck could not play the comic elements in the script. Loren’s costumes were gorgeous and there was a great score by Henry Mancini but other than that it was awful.
Martin
@SpaceUnit: Yeah, and I’m cool with that. Nobody needs to indulge me.
NotMax
George Lucas originally wanted Toshiro Mifune to play Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Both Stan Freberg and Mel Blanc auditioned for the voice of C-3PO.
Martin
@JaySinWA: I’ll look into it, thanks.
RSA
Now there’s an interesting diversion. I wonder if anyone is thinking about turning the Chronicles of Amber into a movie or TV series? I think it has the elements of a successful venture built in, given the success of GoT. Zelazny’s Lord of Light would be another possible property.
NotMax
Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy were the picks for the 1950s version of Show Boat but dropped out when shooting was postponed.
SpaceUnit
@PJ:
Don’t forget the pedantry comments, like this one.
glc
Emily Watson as Amélie. Would have been different.
NotMax
Martin Balsam recorded the HAL dialogue in 2001: A Space Odyssey but afterward Kubrick decided to go in a different direction.
Charles Laughton was cast in The Bridge on the River Kwai and subsequently replaced by Alec Guinness when forced to bow out owing to ill health.
PJ
@RSA: Stephen Colbert is developing the series based on the books.
Omnes Omnibus
@PJ:
I don’t really care for this comment.
kalakal
@RSA: I would love to see either of those.
Very different but I would also love to see Niven’s Tales of Known Space/Ringworld/Pak Protector and/or The Mote in God’s Eye
James E Powell
@oldster:
I thought Keaton was hilarious.
Splitting Image
This one is going back quite aways, but Oliver Hardy was injured in 1926 while making a comedy short called Get ‘Em Young for Hal Roach. Stan Laurel had quit acting to become a full-time writer and director, but was enlisted as Ollie’s replacement at the last minute. Roach convinced him to do more films as an actor and paired him with Hardy in a few films throughout the next year.
That was the beginning of the Laurel and Hardy team. Can you imagine if Hardy had done the film and Laurel had stayed behind the camera?
kalakal
@RSA: I would also really, really love to see a series of Iain M. Banks’ Culture novels
kalakal
The Pink Panther was originally meant to be a one off vehicle for David Niven as the slick international jewel thief with Clouseau as a minor character played by Peter Ustinov. When Ustinov dropped out Sellars got the part and proceeded to steal every scene and spawning an entire film series based around Closeau ( and poor old Herbert Lom as Dreyfus)
different-church-lady
OK, we’re 300 comments in to this, and nobody has mentioned that Coppola actually filmed Harvey Keitel as Captain Willard for the first few days of Apocalypse Now before figuring out that wasn’t gonna work?
Origuy
@VOR: British comedian Josh WIddicomb was up for the part of BIlbo Baggins in The Hobbit. I could see it; he is small and has curly hair.
RSA
@PJ: Interesting! Thanks.
Those would be fun. I loved Known Space early on. Oath of Fealty and a few other pieces eventually turned me off Niven (and Pournelle) but there’s great world building and story telling that could be mined. Even A World Out of Time or the Svetz time travel stories seem possible.
That would be so ambitious! Me too. I think it could be a “prestige TV” series like GoT, but a little more demanding of viewers. Worth a shot.
prostratedragon
@Craig: (Really late to thhe game tonight) I think Cruise’s wink goes back at least to Eyes Wide Shut, or maybe even The Firm, in which an ambitious character similarly blows up his life. Makes him often more interesting than I’d expected ex ante.
PJ
@Omnes Omnibus: Your comment is one that I read. I can’t say I enjoyed it, but it was short, at least.
Craig
@prostratedragon: The Firm is really good. Great cast, directed by Sydney Pollack.
cckids
In Groundhog Day, the studio wanted Tom Hanks, but the director thought he came across as too nice, so stayed with Bill Murray.
It would have been a very different film.
munira
@delphinium: Peter Jackson also decided that Stuart Townsend was too young for Aragorn. Yes Viggo was the perfect choice.
Jacel
@Brachiator: No, it’s “I Was A Male War Bride”, one of the best comic movies I’ve ever seen.
JustRuss
Probably not, but I would enjoy seeing Wayne calling the common clay of the new west “morons”.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@JustRuss: Yeah, the role of the Waco Kid was one that couldn’t be played straight and made to work. I do recall some comment, perhaps from Brooks, about how Wayne declined the part because he said it wouldn’t be right for his image, but would be first in line to buy a ticket to see the movie when it came out.
The Nameless One
@JustRuss: That was an ad-lib by Gene Wilder and Cleavon Little’s response was real.
Tony Jay
@zhena gogolia:
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?:
Then I’ve spent the last mumble-mumble years believing a spoof. Those bastards!
Tony Jay
@Craig:
I got Slap Shot (Newman) mixed up with The Mean Machine (Reynolds), in which (I’m pretty sure) he shaved his moustache off.
eclare
@Martin: Wow what an asshole.
raven
@eclare: I’m pretty sure he has me pied so I don’t mind saying that Martin is one of the best and most incisive commenters here. He adds a great deal to many conversations and often offers they most thorough analysis of a given topic.
eschneider
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: That’s absolutely true, but it was a very different script at that stage.
schrodingers_cat
The definition of “culture” is very narrow in these threads.
There is culture beyond old Hollywood movies for example.
DanTheMan
@RSA: Kurt Russel also auditioned for the role. Harrison Ford’s job was to play Han strictly for auditions of other actors in their roles.
DanTheMan
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Clooney keeps a poster of that film in his office to remind him not to do anything that dumb ever again.
WaterGirl
@PJ: So you’re not reading the comments, but you can so clearly state what you think they are about? That’s surprising.
WaterGirl
@DanTheMan: Interesting. I think Kurt Russell could have pulled off that part. I wasn’t sure I would think that about any of the folks who were offered or wanted the part but didn’t take it.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Is there some reason that you prefer to criticize rather than participate? If you are unhappy with these threads, as it seems you are, is there some reason why you don’t offer suggestions when I invite suggestions for Medium Cool topics?
WaterGirl
@eclare: For what it’s worth, I don’t think Martin was being an asshole. He asked a thoughtful question, and he participated in the conversation we were having.
If we’re lucky he’ll write something up and we’ll have an interesting conversation on a future Medium Cool.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: I have participated in these threads and got little to no response in the past on these threads. Also, this was not a criticism more an observation.
As for offering suggestions, you (and some other front pagers) have been pretty hostile to me in the past. An example, more than one FPer has insinuated that I couldn’t understand what you were saying when I disagreed with you about politics or policy. So I don’t particularly feel welcome on this blog and I don’t think you would welcome my suggestions.
So I take Balloon Juice breaks and comment for old time sake and because I like to read the comments here and interact with some of the commenters.
schrodingers_cat
Elaborating on the observation from last comment.
These “culture” threads cater to a very specific demographic and have for weeks and months now. So its not a one off. That’s your readership, I am the odd fish. Hence the observation, if it distresses you delete it.
Miss Bianca
@trollhattan:
@CaseyL:
Keaton also has chops as a damn fine dramatic actor. Ever seen Clean and Sober? It’s unremittingly grim, so I’ll probably never watch it again, but he’s fucking amazing in it.
@kalakal: True enough, his Dogberry was a dog’s breakfast. Well, just goes to show you can’t win ’em all.
deekaa6
@Baud: Douglass originated the part on Broadway and ironically son Michael produced the film.
Annie
IIRC the studio that financed The English Patient wanted Demi Moore for the role played by Kristin Scott Thomas. Yikes.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: I appreciate the reply. I am happy to hear ideas and suggestions from everyone. If you have suggestions for Medium Cool, by all means share them on a post sometime. (I am closing this tab so I won’t see them if you add them here.)
Tehanu
@kalakal: Basil Rathbone’s greatest swordfight is the one with Danny Kaye in The Court Jester. Every time either one snaps his fingers, Danny forgets how to fight/remembers how to fight. I’m helpless with laughter every time I see it.
@kalakal: Have to disagree about Michael Keaton as Dogberry. Hubby D. and I both love him to pieces in the part.