Michelle Goldberg is probably my favorite NY Times columnist, but damn is she off base in this (gift-linked) piece: “Biden’s a Great President. He Should Not Run Again.” I’d bypass that title under a different byline, but since Goldberg is usually thoughtful, I read it. She’s wrong.
Goldberg begins by listing Joe Biden’s accomplishments, including economic gains, infrastructure funding, climate action, rallying world leaders to support Ukraine, withdrawing from Afghanistan, capping insulin prices for seniors and judicial appointments.
Goldberg also credits Biden for Trump’s waning influence and notes Biden was right to ignore pundits and focus on the threat the MAGA movement poses to American democracy in the runup to the 2022 midterms. Damn straight!
She expects the president will use tonight’s SOTU address to underscore these victories and make the case for reelection but argues that “the time has come for a valediction, not a relaunch.”
The arguments for sticking with Biden are not trivial. In addition to his successful record, he has the benefit of incumbency. Primaries are expensive, exhausting, bruising affairs. If only Biden were just a few years younger, it would not be worth the Democratic Party enduring one.
But it’s hard to ignore the toll of Biden’s years, no matter how hard elected Democrats try. In some ways, the more sympathetic you are to Biden, the harder it can be to watch him stumble over his words, a tendency that can’t be entirely explained by his stutter. Longwell said Democrats in her focus group talked about holding their breath every time he speaks. And while Biden was able to campaign virtually in 2020, in 2024 we will almost certainly be back to a grueling real-world campaign schedule, which he would have to power through while running the country. It’s a herculean task for a 60-year-old and a near impossible one for an octogenarian.
If Biden faces Trump, who will be 78 next year, that might not matter… But with many polls showing Trump’s popularity slipping and with the deep-pocketed Koch network lining up against him, chances are good that Biden’s competitor will be someone much younger, like Ron DeSantis, who will be 46 in 2024. Barring some radical shift in the national mood, the candidates will be vying for leadership of a deeply dissatisfied country desperate for change. For Democrats, the visual contrast alone could be devastating.
Plenty of Democrats worry that if Biden steps aside, the nomination will go to Vice President Kamala Harris, who polls poorly. But Democrats have a deep bench, including politicians who’ve won in important purple states, like Gov. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan and Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia. Biden said he wanted to be a bridge to the next generation of Democrats. There are quite a few promising people qualified to cross it. A primary will give Democrats the chance to find the one who is suited for this moment.
I don’t think any of Goldberg’s observations are out of line, but the time to debate whether Biden is too old to be president was 2020, not 2023. We had that debate, and the majority backed Biden knowing full well how old he would be in 2024. Nothing has changed since except that Biden has racked up some impressive wins, which strengthens the case for reelection.
The time to debate whether Harris is ready for the presidency was also 2020. Joe Biden chose her as his VP nominee, and Americans gave them both a ~7 million popular vote win. As for Goldberg’s colleagues yapping about Harris being in Biden’s “shadow,” of course she is — that’s the damn job!
If Biden were to stand down and endorse Harris for 2024, I think she’d win the primary. Would she win the general election? I don’t know, but my doubts aren’t down to problems with Harris but rather that our electorate is as sexist as it is racist. An open primary where someone other than Harris wins would bring its own set of risks. I like our bench too, but our coalition is fragile.
There are consequences to our 2020 decision. Among them are all the great things the Biden-Harris administration has accomplished and also the fact that the president is 80 years old and the VP is a woman of color in a country that is appallingly sexist and racist. Collectively, as Democrats, we knew all that and made our decision. Revisiting it now makes absolutely no sense to me.
Open thread.
Baud
👍
ETA:
Yeah, the problem is a lot of these people had their own old person of choice in 2020, so they were hamstrung from making it an issue then.
Scott
We just assume that 80 is old. Life expectancy for an 80 year old is about 9 years. Also want to point out that Warren Buffett is 92 and Charlie Munger is 99 and they are still running a $279B corporation.
WaterGirl
@Baud: “I have no problem with older people being president, just not that older person.”
Barbara
Yes, Betty, your take is spot on. There are maybe 1000 different ways that pundits need to learn the limits of their role, and considering themselves to be a one-person substitute for millions of voters is at the top of that list. There is no doubt in my mind that Biden’s people include lots of pollsters and other professionals who are very aware of many campaign related issues, among them, how Kamala Harris would fare as a candidate, and my reservations are identical to yours, and not because Harris is too weak.
Barbara
@Scott: Rupert Murdoch. Alas.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WaterGirl: “Or that woman as vice president.”
Miss Bianca
OMG, what the actual fuck is wrong with these media people. Even the best of them don’t seem to understand the *stakes* involved for the sheer survival of American democracy.
Christ, I hope she’s getting roasted in the comments.
BruceFromOhio
This. I voted for Kamala in 2020 primary, and I look forward to voting for her again given the opportunity. This against the reality that the fascists are hellbent on destroying democracy, and the racists and women-hating theocrats are happy to help.
If the fascists put DeSatan at first and TFG ran as independent (or vice versa) then VP Harris would dominate. That’s a big IF.
The Moar You Know
That would be great, but that’s not the America I live in. Not even in my blue enclave on the California coast.
Old School
I guess Goldberg is entitled to her opinion, but it’s more important whether Biden wants to run for reelection.
Hildebrand
Wait…DeSantis is only 44? He looks (and acts) so very much older – and not in an experienced, seasoned, thoughtful kind of older. More in the washed-up used car salesman who everyone knows is a bigot and sexist pig kind of older.
Wow…44. Yikes.
Zippity
I trust President Biden to make the decision if he’s up to it or not, just like he did in 2016. I don’t think he’s driven by his ego, but by his desire to keep helping people.
schrodingers_cat
It’s time to admit the truth that it’s not just the MAGAs who are racist and misogynist.
Also, our media is teeming with Republican apologists.
middlelee
I watch as many speeches as I can and I never hold my breath or watch in fear and trepidation. Good god, do none of these people have older relatives living active lives into their 90s?
I’m about to give up following politics again because I’m so tired of the hacks who report and comment on politics.
zhena gogolia
@Hildebrand: Yeah, I agree it’s hard to believe.
I looked a lot younger than that when I was 44! (Just found some old pictures . . .)
UncleEbeneezer
I really don’t see how anyone looks at Harris and wonders if she’s ready to be POTUS but believes that Liz Warren, Bernie, Buttigieg etc. somehow were. And if age is an issue for Biden, how is it not also an issue for Bernie and Warren? We could apply the Age/Inexperience (sometimes both) disqualified to ALL the candidates in 2020. Where does that leave us?
trollhattan
In 2020 Trump was too old to be president and Biden was not.
IDK what my takeaway is here, other than age treats us each uniquely.
Now, as to DiFi and Grassley….
MattF
And now we can expect all the RW ‘experts’ who have been suggesting Biden is senile to quote Goldberg. Sigh. I’m also weary of all the same experts who just ‘feel’ that there’s some vague, inexpressible something wrong with Harris. I could tell you what that something is… but why bother?
JMG
Goldberg has a common pundit’s flaw in her piece. That is, after writing “X should happen” she (and almost all her peers in that weird business never addresses “After X happens, then what?” In this case, a fracturing of the Democratic party seems all too obvious a result.
trollhattan
@Scott: Peter Thiel is 107, you could look it up.
That teen blood works a treat.
gene108
There are a significant subset of Democrats who are worried about Biden’s age. They may or may not become more vocal, but they exist.
What I don’t get is if Biden win’s re-election, and old age catches up to him, V.P. Harris becomes President.
I feel like some of them act like if Biden becomes incapacitated, then Republicans will control the White House.
SpaceUnit
I think the age issue is just a stalking horse for media folks who really want the president to be an Entertainer in Chief, a fucking game-show host or clown who’s antics make their jobs so much easier. They never had it so good as under TFG.
They could just report on his latest tweet, get a couple of reactions to it and boom they had their story. By 4:30 they were home and knocking back their first whisky sour.
Eduardo
Uncle Joe knows he is doing an outstanding job — no chance in hell he is gonna look at his record and think “I am too old and cant win in 2024”
So all this is all hypotheticals — that marginally damage Biden.
Joe Falco
@gene108: They act like this would be RBG Redux, which it is not the same. Different branch, different outcomes
oldgold
I like Biden.
In 2020 I contributed to Biden’s campaign and voted for him.
I think he has done a good job as President.
If Biden is the Democratic nominee for President in 2024, I will again contribute to his campaign and vote for him.
That expressed, Biden’s age is a real and legitimate issue. If the GOP wakes up and nominates someone other than Trump, I think Biden’s age spells real trouble.
Baud
Biden’s in better shape than FDR was in ’44.
Alison Rose
@Hildebrand: Yeah, he’ll be 45 in September, which makes him just over 2 years older than me. The idea that he and I are in the same generation really puts the lie to generational categories meaning much at all.
As for Goldberg, I started hate-reading this piece last night but stopped when she mentioned Warnock. Look, I love that man and think he’s incredible, but she’s gotta be smoking something either very good or very bad to think he would have a better chance than Biden. Come on, woman. She is aware racism exists.
craigie
@SpaceUnit:
This +1000
gene108
@Eduardo:
As the margins in states like AZ and GA were pretty thin for Biden, even marginal attrition matters.
Betty Cracker
@JMG: Great point — it is a common flaw in this type of piece. I like Goldberg, but yeah, that seems lazy.
catclub
@Scott:
I would guess that Biden is much the Tom Brady in terms of taking care of himself to stay sharp.
Baud
@Alison Rose: Right. There’s no one else we could nominate that wouldn’t have a vulnerability. Johnny Unbeatable does not exist.
gene108
@oldgold:
It could be an issue, but the way to defuse it is for Democrats and non-Republicans, like Goldberg, to rally behind Biden in a unified front.
There’s no indication that his age has negatively affected his performance. I think in some ways his age has given a sense of perspective lacking in younger ambitious people.
Eduardo
@gene108: Agree — I just have a sense of inevitability about it. People will talk, Democrats will dread, Republicans will attack.
And Joe will run.
ian
I feel this is pertinent to this discussion.
Hoodie
@SpaceUnit: It may be laziness for a lot of them, but part of it is that the president has to do the things that make them happy, theatrical stuff like giving nifty speeches that they can write stories about. These are not necessarily the most important parts of the job and, in fact, tend to obscure what’s important, i.e., picking the right staff and making sure they do what they’re supposed to do. Biden has proven that he does the executive functions better than most of his predecessors, including Obama.
mali muso
Yeah, this Tweet thread resonated with me…
dww44
As one who’s right up there in age with Biden, count me in the Michelle Goldberg camp. There are lots of people out there in my same age bracket, not committed Democrats necessarily, but who have voted sanely for the last few cycle. All are of the same mind… that it is time for the torch to be passed. And the longer Biden postpones passing the torch, the more difficult it will be for any younger and viable Democrats to declare for the job.
If Biden runs and is re-elected, what are the chances he makes it to 2028 when he will be 86 years old? While I believe I have the marbles I’ve always had, the stamina is not what it once was. It’s not gonna be for him either. Politically for Democrats it is likely easier to stick with the President for another term, and then have him declare on day one in 2025 that he will be stepping aside sooner than later? I’m not in favor of that. Biden needs to do the right thing for his party and the country. I’m sure he’s thinking about all of that and perhaps this is why he hasn’t formally, officially announced he’s running.
delphinium
Maybe it’s just me but the media’s new golden boy, DeSantis looks a lot more unhealthy than Biden does. And I don’t think the GOP nominating someone younger will necessarily be a shoo-in.
Alison Rose
@Baud: When you kick off Baud! 2024, I think your campaign slogan should be “Johnny Unbeatable”.
Kent
I have no idea what Biden is going to do. But one thing I’m pretty sure he won’t do is endorse Kamala Harris before the primary process starts. He is too savvy of a politician to do that.
If Biden decides not to run and Harris wins the primary then I’m 100% behind her. But a robust primary is nothing to fear. It makes candidates better.
zhena gogolia
@gene108: That’s the point. The NYT and its ilk are trying to defeat Biden. As they did with Hillary in 2016. And Dems are falling for it. Again.
schrodingers_cat
@Alison Rose: She is using Warnock and Whitmer as shields. She doesn’t want to be called a racist or a misogynist for wanting to jettison Harris as Biden’s successor.
zhena gogolia
@gene108: Goldberg is not paid to rally behind Biden. Au contraire.
Hoodie
@dww44: What’s with this stamina crap? The only thing that requires anything like stamina is campaigning, and incumbents don’t have to do the rubber chicken circuit in Iowa. The president has a ginormous staff. He’s not personally kicking the terrorists off of Air Force One like Harrison Ford. The president is picked for his judgment, not his ability to cram for finals.
Ilieitz
Every time I read something about some politician etc all I hear is we’re going in the wrong direction and need change. To what? The change we had in 2020 was great but people have in their mind of some fantasy change where everything is perfect overnight. For who though? I’m 66 and the 50’s passed me by before I was born and there has never been a utopian time in my life. So go Joe and Kamala. Keep trying to make things better. See Kay’s comments on how Ohio etc are doing with jobs etc. Maybe we’ll be satisfied with that but I doubt it
zhena gogolia
@dww44: HE SHOULD PASS THE FUCKING TORCH WHEN HE’S DONE WITH HIS SECOND TERM. NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TWO TERMS.
UncleEbeneezer
zhena gogolia
God, Democrats are so stupid, we deserve to lose.
I’m living 2016 all over again.
SpaceUnit
@Hoodie:
They want to cover politics as though it were celebrity gossip, but Biden is just a quietly competent guy doing his job.
delphinium
@mali muso: David Rothkopf brings up very valid points. At this point however, I don’t believe the media will do better anytime soon.
Alison Rose
@dww44: How about this — Biden runs for reelection and wins, gets inaugurated, then resigns and lets Harris take over.
Baud
@zhena gogolia: Not all of us deserve it, but, yeah, many of us do.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: If they aren’t “too old” then they don’t have enough experience. Nice catch, that Catch-22…
lowtechcyclist
@Miss Bianca:
This x 1000. It’s hard to imagine a scenario where the winner of a contested primary, regardless of whom, would stand a better chance of winning in 2024 than Biden would. And winning in 2024 is Job #1.
If Biden starts feeling the wear and tear of the job, he can always step down in 2025 (or later) and let Harris take over as President. That’s what the veep is there for. But first let’s win in 2024.
pacem appellant
Good or ill, the NYT’s column section is—on balance—a piece of sh¡t. I oft repeat myself, but so did Cato. NYT dēlenda sunt.
Baud
@Alison Rose: Not sure if you’re snarking, but that would not be cool.
Alison Rose
@Hoodie:
I just had an image in my head of Biden in that scene with his aviators on. Thank you for that!
Alison Rose
@Baud: It was indeed snark.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: @Baud: It is not stupidity many on our side are also uncomfortable that our party is becoming more representative of its voters. Losing one’s preeminent position is hard
Harris represents the changing face of the party, so she is belittled at every turn by the media and many even on our side. Like Axelrod.
Sister Golden Bear
In today’s
ethnictrans cleaning news:– MT House approved a bill to deny heatlhcare to LGBTQ people — and lets healthcare providers also deny abortions. The bill “would allow medical providers, health care facilities and insurers to deny services based on “ethical, moral, or religious beliefs or principles” — this includes EMTs, leading to potential repeats of the notorious Tyra Hunter case, where paramedics laughed as they let her bleed out in the street. It’s likely to pass in the MY Senate next week.
– Also hearings this week for anti-trans bills in: Arkansas, Arizona, Idaho, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Tennessee. Also, a spreadsheet tracking all the of 281 anti-LBG, and especially T, bills introduced this year alone.
– A new bill introduced in Texas would require all people with a Y chromosome to be classified as male in their birth certificate. This law is absurd. What are they going to do, DNA test every Texan? Not only that, there are cis women with Y chromosomes (rare, but true) Also, what are they going to do with people who have genetic mosaicism with some cells that are XX and others that are XY? I’ll note that some of the anti-trans bills seek to ban changes to one birth certificates — it’s a way to ensure trans people are outed by their legal ID.
– Daily Wire host tells listeners that demons are “always transgender.”
– Expose on the shady Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine, a pseudo-scientific anti-trans group that creates disinformation to attack trans healthcare. It goes into their funding and ties to right-wing groups. It’s “a fringe organization known for intentionally misrepresenting the state of evidence for gender-affirmative care and for collaborating with anti-trans and anti-queer hate groups, has been a key source for anti-trans legislation and policies worldwide. Their members and affiliates are not only cited by conservative governments, but have been paid large sums by these same governments as “experts.” Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida went so far as to appoint a member of SEGM—Patrick Hunter—to the Florida Board of Medicine, where he has worked to ban care for trans youth in the state.”
Poignant Tweet from a trans legislator in Montana:
In happier news, Monday’s episode of “Quantum Leap” focused on Ben helping a trans girl being bullied. I’ve not watched yet, so I can’t comment on it.
scav
What if there was a system already in place to determine who the voters wanted to run as their candidate in a future election cycle? Imagine that!
Baud
@scav: In fairness, no leading candidate is going to primary Biden if he decides to run for reelection. It would be political suicide, especially for someone who wants to run in 2028.
Alison Rose
@Sister Golden Bear: Re the Texas shit, yeah, I often wonder if these geniuses know that intersex people exist.
Hoodie
@Alison Rose: That would be a great SNL gag, undoubtedly including some reference to Cornpop.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah, this whole thing has me thinking a lot of Dems have irreconcilable fantasies about who would be the nominee if Biden didn’t run and most of them will inevitably end up disappointed.
oldgold
I have read the that some MAGA House members are considering bringing balloons to the State of the Union.
Sounds like an awful idea that will backfire on them big time. Yet, for the country’s sake, I hope they do not do so.
Geminid
I stumbled into a short Axios story the other day that caught my attention: whereas in 2014 only 8 of 43 African American members of Congress represented majority or plurality white districts or states, now 30 out of 60 do.
I noticed in 2018 how midterm winners Colin Allred, Lauren Underwood and Jahana Hayes won majority white districts. I think Lucy McBath did as well. Allred, Underwood and McBath even flipped red districts.
This is a step forward, I think.
Baud
@Geminid:
That is interesting.
scav
@Baud: Oddly enough, that doesn’t worry me. That seems to be candidates making their own evaluation of their probabilities. Sorta parta the job. And their calculations should be at least as enlightened as any randos paid to spout opinions on a regular basis (come rain, shine or not much happening) or hoards of volunteer opiners.
delphinium
@Ilieitz: Lotta folks who refuse to live in the present we have and instead want to go back to some perceived ‘perfect’ past (that never existed) or who think if only we did X,Y, & Z, then a future utopia would be inevitable.
Math Guy
Biden is an outstanding president, possibly the best person for the job at this point in our country‘s history. But age is a factor: he will be four years older at the start of a second term. If you do not think that matters, then go look at pictures of Obama at the start of his first term and then at the start of his second term. You can see how that job ages you.
Betty Cracker
@Kent: I’m confident Biden will run and think that’s the best thing for the party. But if he decides he’s not up for it, why would it be a bad thing to endorse Harris if he thinks she’s the right person for the job, which was implicit in the pick? I’m not sure an open primary in that situation would be a good thing.
Ksmiami
@Hildebrand: his skin color is awful- and evil has a way of leaving a mark…
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
As our electorate, particularly younger voters, are increasingly liberal, some people are indeed uncomfortable with our more liberal elected representatives that reflect that change.
Baud
@Betty Cracker: If Biden doesn’t run, the primary will definitely be open, and there will be a ton of candidates, whether or not it would be a good thing. Biden endorsing Harris would be seen as manipulating the process. There are a lot of conspiracy theorists who see manipulation where it doesn’t exist, and here they would actually have a point, so things would get ugly fast.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Alison Rose: The ideal time for that move would be about the time of the 2027 State of the Union – giving Harris both the opportunity to smoothly transition, and ideally the chance to run twice as the incumbent, which nobody since FDR has done.
Hoodie
@Math Guy: Honestly, I think it probably affects someone as experienced as Biden less than others, i.e., not sweating the small stuff and actually viewing work as keeping you engaged. Nancy got more done in the last few years than any modern era speaker. Probably had several more years left in her.
zeecube
@Miss Bianca: Sadly, no. I only perused through 100 comments, not the 2000+. More in agreement than not.
Ksmiami
@zhena gogolia: totally. And anyone who says otherwise is a complete fucktard. We need the power of incumbency to win and drive MAGA back into the wilderness. Even DKOS gets it. Jesus.
Scott
@Barbara: But that is the result of transfusion from small children.
Jackie
@oldgold: Imagine the stampede should one of them pop accidentally… or on purpose.
Mike in NC
The latest Trump banners read: “Trump 2024. Take America Back!” It’s the battle cry of American fascism that surfaced with the racist Tea Party movement in 2010, and what Fat Bastard himself cried out to his worshippers on January 6 when they stormed the Capitol. Time to party like its 1950 again and millions of old white people would be happy to crawl naked over broken glass to see their wish fulfilled.
Cameron
Doesn’t matter what I think or want. Next go-round we get DeSantis. White boots in the White House. And I can’t persuade LOML to run off to the Old Country with me.
Math Guy
@Hoodie: I hope you are right. I love Biden as president, but I also think the stakes for the future of the country are very high. Whoever the Democratic nominee is, I’ll fight for them like a cornered badger.
Alison Rose
@oldgold: If they do, Biden should look out at them and be like, “Aw, isn’t that nice, they gave the little ones balloons to keep them occupied during the speech. Don’t forget to get your lollipops too, kiddos!”
dww44
@Alison Rose: Not fine at all, Harris can run and win on her own. More importantly that’s a tactic that has been too frequently deployed to insure that one’s party retains control of a legislative branch or a powerful seat in Congress. That’s how we ended up with a Kelly Loeffler as a Senator when everyone knew that Johnny Isakson would not make it through his term at the time he declared. The GOP was trying to cement control over that seat. This will work even less well with the presidency.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Huh. Haven’t seen VDE in a long time.
schrodingers_cat
@lowtechcyclist:I know that barb is directed at me. When did the definition of liberal become kissing Bernie Sander’s ring.
I am way to the left of the Messiah of Vt when it comes to immigration and guns.
I am pretty liberal even though I don’t think that M4A is the solution to all that ails us. There is more to being liberal than being a BS groupie.
delphinium
@Sister Golden Bear: This fucking nonsense is so infuriating. Denying someone, anyone healthcare is not and never will be an ethical, moral, religious belief or principle. If you are in the healthcare/medical field, your job is to help people, period. Your “religious” beliefs or whatever BS excuse you come up with doesn’t let you off the hook for doing your job.
As for the DNA testing in Texas, I sense a grifting opportunity for the GOP and their fellow travelers to funnel money to themselves somehow. Not that this makes it any less heinous.
trollhattan
@Mike in NC: They don’t have the stones to make it “Snatch America.” Sad!
Alison Rose
@Math Guy: That’s meaningless. Obama would have “looked older” even if he’d been working as a teacher or a gardener or something, because that’s how time works. And how you look on the outside says nothing about your actual physical or mental health. I’m 42, to most people I look around late 30s, but I have the inner physical condition of the Crypt-Keeper’s older sister.
The Thin Black Duke
If the GOP wins the presidency in 2024, they won’t give it back.
Betty Cracker
@Baud: I realize there’s no process for Biden to 1) decline to run for reelection and 2) transfer the nomination to Harris, so yeah, it would be an open primary. I don’t see endorsing Harris as heavy-handed manipulation since choosing her as VP is sorta tantamount to endorsing her for president, but you’re right, other people would, so that’s a fair point.
Baud
If Biden doesn’t run, expect a 1000 articles on how made South Carolina go first to help Harris.
Geminid
@Hoodie: Senator L. Louis Lucas, Virginia’s Democratic Senate leader, is 78 and she looks like she could pants Glenn Youngkin and take his lunch money for another 10 years.
Alison Rose
@Bruce K in ATH-GR:
@dww44:
Clearly I needed to add the snark tag to this comment.
UncleEbeneezer
So how long until we find out that these “Biden’s Too Old” and “Harris Is Too Inexperienced” hot-takes have been hatched/pushed/amplified by Russia?
I swear, we make it too damn easy for Putin.
WaterGirl
@dww44: Harris can definitely win the primary on her own. Black and female? I would like to be wrong, but I do not believe she would be elected in the general.
Looking at the past 2 years, it has become increasingly clear to me that I had grossly underestimated the the racism and the disdain for women in this country.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I remember Reagan’s cutesy non-endorsement of GHWB— “George, tell’m you paid for that microphone” (why they all acted as if that line was such a devastating own has been beyond me for (good Christ) almost half a century)– and I think Bill Clinton handled Gore v Bradley in a similar way (of course I can’t make an endorsement, but…)
Geminid
@Ksmiami: Rachel Bitecofer:
“We’d be fools not to run our incumbent.”
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WaterGirl:
Same. But on the plus side, for people growing up, they have experienced a woman vice president. It will no longer seem like something odd or impossible.
Gravenstone
@Alison Rose: Republicans would scream bloody murder amid cries of “betrayal”. Then the next four years would be an tightly organized effort to undermine the Harris administration at every turn.
Or, basically another day ending in -y under a Democratic president.
Brachiator
@lowtechcyclist:
I keep seeing this elsewhere accompanied with “Bernie is the Political Messiah” nonsense.
How does this relate to Biden or Democratic Party policies?
Paul in KY
@SpaceUnit: With Cheetolini, the horrible stories just wrote themselves. They also would have liked Caligula…until he executed them for giggles one boring day.
Zelma
Re the age thing, it was bound to be an issue especially since the conservative press pushes “Biden is senile” all the time and underlines every single misstep or misstatement he makes. (This is the same press who praised Trump the Incoherent.)
My own feelings are born of the fact that I am Biden’s age. (Actually six months younger.) Hence, I have many friends who are around 80. What is clear is that age is really just a number! I have friends who have all sorts of physical issues. I have friends who play golf and/or pickle ball regularly. I have friends who have slowed mentally. I have a friend who runs a $20 million company.
Seems to me that the evidence is that Biden is physically in good shape and still mentally sharp. Given the stakes, I really think he has to run again. Do I wish he were younger? That his age isn’t an issue? Sure. But if he were, the damn Republicans would find something else to attack him for.
Alison Rose
@Gravenstone: Once again: I was not being serious.
Paul in KY
@Alison Rose: I think she has to pretend it doesn’t, in any meaningful way. Sheesh…
Betty Cracker
@The Thin Black Duke: For real. There’s a story in The Intercept about how DeSantis cronies used a corrupt media outlet and judiciary to frame and imprison a Republican county commissioner for opposing a sweet tax deal for developers of The Villages. Thought of posting about it but it’s sort of convoluted and hard to summarize. But yeah, not all Republicans are as dumb as Trump.
Cameron
@Geminid: I would take her advice over pretty much anybody else’s.
M31
if the Repubs bring balloons, Biden can say he took care of a 200-foot tall balloon, don’t worry he’ll take care of these too
and
“ah yes, NOW the GOP knows about balloons, too bad Trump didn’t notice them when they intruded 3 times during his failed presidency”
kindness
I was skiing over the weekend with one of my closest friends. He’s a liberal to moderate person & was a big Bernie supporter. When we talked about domestic politics he kept coming out with ‘Biden is a terrible president’ and ‘Biden is too old and he’s senile’ and ‘Biden shouldn’t run in 2024’. I did not point out Bernie is the same age because I didn’t want to stupidly argue with a buddy. I just told him he was an idiot and we agreed to stop discussing domestic politics. I’ll be damned but I get more upset by the incoming assassination attempts of a Democratic president from my fellow left than I do from the knuckle-dragging right. Thankfully, he didn’t extol the virtues of Bernie once like they all did in 2016 & 2020.
brantl
@Baud: And they hid FDR’s infirmity as much as they could.
Baud
@brantl:
Better than abandoning him.
Paul in KY
@dww44: I think the chances are good. He’s probably in better condition that you, and (as you well know) that matters.
Don’t get rid of the bird in hand for two in the bush.
delphinium
@M31: Ha! Now I really want the GOP House to bring balloons to the SOTU address.
Paul in KY
@Alison Rose: If Joe felt that was best for country & his family, then congrats Pres. Harris!
Edit: Would assume a very serious health issue just arose. Would be an extraordinary situation.
SpaceUnit
@Paul in KY:
Exactly. Given the choice between headlines and good government the media will choose headlines every time. We need to ignore them on this issue.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl:
So you agree with Goldberg?
I trust Biden’s political judgment in choosing Harris over that of media bros and sisters.
Old School
Test comment
Edit: It worked. WP likes me again!
Geminid
@brantl: After the 1944 Democratic convention nominated Harry Truman for Vice President, Roosevelt had Truman over to the White House for lunch. Roosevelt’s physical appearance was a surprise to Truman, even a shock.
Gravenstone
Closer to their actual intent. Not that they say those parts out loud all that often.
Suzanne
Agreed.
Cameron
@schrodingers_cat: I would love to see her as President. I’m afraid I’m an old Eeyore, though,because I think we get DeSantis in ’24
karen marie
@Baud: I’d say a bigger problem is lazy editors and writers at the NYT and elsewhere. The only thing it has accomplished are getting Goldberg talked about and clicks for the FYNYT, which, face it, was the point of writing and publishing it.
trollhattan
Biden has control over all this via the “when” of his announcement. By this date in 2019, nine had announced for the Democratic primary. By April 1, fourteen and May 1, seventeen, including Biden. [NB, counts are plus or minus as I’m reading off a giant list and am mistake-prone.] As we well recall, there would be a shitton yet to come on board, leading to those nonsensical cattle-call “debates” among the winner/loser cohorts.
Suboptimal, nobody needs that mess. Focus on beating Trump and get going, assuming he’s the candidate. If Biden has no serious challengers it matters not what order the primaries are. Meanwhile, the only things preventing Trump from being the candidate are prison and death. Root for them but expect neither. Secretary of State Steven Miller sounds nice, doesn’t it?
Kent
Presidents rarely weigh in with an early endorsement like that. Look at the 2000 primary which was between Gore and Bradley. Clinton didn’t step in with an endorsement of Gore until after Bradly had dropped out when it became numerically obviously he was not going to win.
Likewise, Obama didn’t make an endorsement in 2016 until June 2016 after the primary season was largely over and it was clear she was going to win.
Why is an open primary not at good thing? It builds all the activist and campaign networks for the general election and keeps the Democrats in the news. If the GOP is running a robust primary and the Dems aren’t doing anything because Harris is the presumptive nominee that gives them all the energy and doesn’t do Harris any good. What we don’t need is another Wilmer who convinces all his acolytes to keep going and going endlessly after the primary is actually over and won.
If she is the best candidate she will have no trouble winning the primary.
Paul in KY
@Cameron: He may be just too humorless to be elected. TFG has a sense of humor. A juvenile, nasty sense, but a sense. I’m pretty sure DeSatanis only smiles when he does something evil and has no sense of humor whatsoever.
Cameron
@Paul in KY: I don’t think Hitler was known for his sense of humor,either, and look where that got him.
tobie
We don’t have time for bedwetting. Democracy’s (still) on the line. If you want to take issue with the Biden admin, push for the issues that matter to you that haven’t been addressed yet. Recognize that we might have to wait till 2024…and work your friggin’ heart out to ensure Democrats hold the White House and the Senate and retake the House.
UncleEbeneezer
Racist Conservatives and the NYPost are going to their fainting couches over this clip from Disney’s tv show, The Proud Family: Slave’s Built This Country!
Show me the lie…
trollhattan
@Paul in KY: Trump will nut DeSantis in a debate, and will do it gleefully. It’s what he does. That sanctimonious Florida prick will just have to grimace and bear it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: so far, trump’s bullying instincts seem to be failing him when his target is someone who’s built his political persona around being a bully.
patrick II
Let us give Joe, the best president of my lifetime, a relative score of 100. If he slips to 85 over the next few years that will leave him as possibly the second best president of my lifetime and still better than I expect from another even very good Democrat. In part, simply inertia. He will be continuing successful policies and more importantly, the “Joeism” (whatever that is. I can’t explain it, but I think Joeism is grounded in decency) that makes those policies work. And just as important, with a better chance of winning than any of the fine candidates I see on the Democrat’s deep bench.
dww44
@Paul in KY: FWIW I’m in reasonably good health but I’m not as nimble as I was just a few short years ago. I don’t think Biden is either. And that nimbleness is likely to diminish even more over the next 5 plus years.
I keep thinking back to how horrified we were that Reagan was 69 in 1980. He was then the oldest person to become President. Trump was 70 when inaugurated in 2017. Biden was 78 in Jan 2021. I’m not comfortable with pushing that envelope even further with an octogenarian as President. I think there are lots of voters who feel the same. More than many seem to want to acknowledge.
Betty Cracker
@Kent: Eh, maybe you’re right. I’m still not over my 2016 PTSD.
Jackie
@UncleEbeneezer: DeSantis will ban it in Florida.
Eolirin
Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan are the three states we need to be worried about. Any Dem candidate needs to be able to carry them. If they can, we win. If they can’t, we lose. It’s really down to just that at this point. While we still have some pick up opportunities in other places, we don’t have enough to afford to lose more than one of those three, and it’s hard to see how we get any of those other states without sweeping all three. It’s hard to see us losing any of the other states we need while getting those three as well.
I don’t think Harris has as good of a chance of carrying them as Biden does, and I don’t think anyone else does either, though I think down the line Buttigieg does really well there.
schrodingers_cat
Kamala Harris is going to be our nominee when Biden is done. I think that will be 2028. The choice of whether you help her win or the Republican running against her (either directly or by supporting 3rd party candidate) is up to you.
artem1s
the GOP is a mess and likely to have as hard a time choosing their nominee as they did the Speaker. They have no leadership that can rid them of their meddlesome orange pest. yet once again the MSM is imploring Dems to interrupt them while they are hurting themselves. the answer should he a hard NO. why should we help the MSM take the camera off the GOP chaos and turn it willingly on ourselves? it’s stupid. Unless of course the purpose of this speculation is to salt the earth and make sure no Dem candidate has a chance and give DeSantis (it’s not going to be TFG) an easy path to win in the general. The answer to these pundits is always, “Where is our apology for saddling us with that hot orange mess in 2016? Until you have demonstrated you have learned your lesson, everyone should ignore everything you have to say about this issue. Retire, resign, delete your account and shut the f*** up”
Kathleen
@Miss Bianca: I think we are under a coordinated attack by disinformation terrorists. I also contend that the animus that fuels the vile and vicious anti Biden/Harris coverage is due to the fact the media, MAGAT’s and some “Democrats” hate the party because Black people wield a lot of power and influence, including a spot in the Vice Presidency. I find it’s so easy and logical to see racism as the root of the propaganda and lies that now constitute the national conversation. To paraphrase Chris Rock, you can always count on that train.
UncleEbeneezer
@Jackie: Roy Wood Jr. has a contingency plan ready to go, lol!
Betty Cracker
@dww44: I hope and believe Biden will run for reelection because I think he’s our best chance to win. But I do agree with you that concern about Biden’s age is a legit issue and pretty widespread among Democrats, not just a media creation.
Kathleen
@schrodingers_cat: You’re so kind. I just say they’re fascists.
Sister Golden Bear
@Alison Rose: The Christofascists will tell trans people that “God made you just the way you are” and therefore changing your body is an affront to God — and then turn around and tell intersex people that they’re an abomination.
Kent
@schrodingers_cat: Harris is the presumptive front runner for 2028. But we are LONG ways from nominating a 2028 ticket at this point. One election at at time. Worry about 2024.
Jeffro
I don’t want to hear one f***ing peep out of the Republicans about what is and isn’t to be considered when choosing a president.
Disqualifying for the presidency:
multiple bankruptcies
thousands of lawsuits
dozens of sexual assault charges
completely opaque personal finances
lifelong history of disgraceful behavior
unable to turn off a tv
unable to quit rage-tweeting
quite demonstrably owned by a hostile foreign power
Not disqualifying in the least:
successfully mounting a response to a worldwide pandemic, saving millions of American lives
record job growth
getting us out of our longest war (and as successfully as possible)
building an amazing coalition in support of sanctions on an invading hostile foreign power
unwavering support for the country that was invaded
outstanding record in
bringing down gas prices
bringing down inflation
clearing up supply chain snags
historic infrastructure bill
historic climate change bill
“friendly” media folks like Goldberg don’t help, not one bit, when they take their eyes off of this comparison and fret in public that our extremely competent current president might be too old. I don’t care.
A president is a figurehead for a coalition of interests and policies; our interests and policies have KICKED. ASS. these past two years, and you don’t run away from that just because he’s older than usual. He’s been successful as all hell, he’s VERY successful at pointing out what a bunch of nitwits the GQP has become, and there is 0% doubt in my mind that he will be able to run against Republican ‘chaos and catastrophe’ for the next two years no matter who their nominee is.
Geminid
@trollhattan: If Trump has the game now that he had in 2016 he’ll likely make mincemeat out of DeSantis in a debate. Whether Trump still has that capability seems uncertain to me. I guess I’ll find out in the first debate.
Jeffro
also this – right on
Kent
Wrong. Also Georgia, Arizona, Nevada, and possibly North Carolina. All of those states were within 2% in 2020.
Don’t keep refighting the 2016 election. The 2024 electorate will be what? 20% or more different from 2016? A lot changes in 8 years.
Paul in KY
@trollhattan: I hope that happens! Will be watching & giggling.
Paul in KY
@dww44: I was just horrified it was Reagan. 69 or 49 or 96. Understand the point you are making, though.
Brachiator
@Sister Golden Bear:
I wear eyeglasses. Is this an affront to God?
Paul in KY
@dww44: We need someone who will win. If Biden can beat em, then I don’t give a shit about his age.
Kathleen
@Betty Cracker: You made excellent points in your post, Betty. I agreed with every one.
Paul in KY
@Eolirin: I think Fetterman would also be a good candidate for those states (assuming he can get back to 100%).
Omnes Omnibus
@Cameron: Horse shit.
Kathleen
@ian: I wonder if these are the same pollsters/pundits who predicted the Red Wave in November.
dww44
@oldgold: This.
dww44
@Paul in KY: So you don’t think that there are other democrats who can win?
Kathleen
@zhena gogolia: Yup.
Redshift
@dww44:
Then we get Kamala Harris running as an incumbent president rather than an incumbent VP. I fail to see the downside.
PJ
@oldgold: There is no Republican whose name gets brought up to run who could beat Biden right now – De Santis, Youngkin, Hawley, whomever – Biden would wipe the floor with them. None of them have any juice.
Paul in KY
@Jeffro: Great post! Would make a great print ad against TFG. You could tweek it a bit and also run it against DeSatanis.
Kathleen
@delphinium: They’re not paid to do anything other than what they’re doing.
Kathleen
@Baud: I agree with both you and zhena.
zhena gogolia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: You’re right — I hope he’s okay.
Brachiator
@Geminid:
Ultimately, I don’t care about the GOP right now. They are all in disarray. But their biggest problem is that they should have disqualified Trump. He is a traitor and should be dismissed.
The GOP and the media insist on looking at him as just another candidate.
SpaceUnit
@Kathleen:
You’re onto it. In 2022 the media declared that the election was to be all about inflation and they produced one poll after the other to show that Dems were doomed. They were wrong.
In 2024 they will decree that the election is to be all about Biden’s age and they will produce one poll after another to confirm this. It’s a scam.
Alison Rose
@Sister Golden Bear: Such versatility :/
Eolirin
@Jeffro: The US electorate has a history of voting on affect not on substance. That’s what’s scary about all of this.
Biden is actually old and he’s slower than he was at the start of all of this, and that’s just fact. That it’s not relevant to his ability to perform his job doesn’t really matter when a majority of the electorate doesn’t even understand what that job is.
I do think it’s still better for him to run again if he thinks he’s up to it than for him to not. But the US electorate is terrible, and we have to live with the consequences of that.
UncleEbeneezer
@Kathleen:
sab
At the same time that Biden at 80 is allegedly too old to run again for president, they want to raise the Social Security starting age to 70 because for working people 70 isn’t that old.
My husband is 71 and his nack is all shot to hell. And Biden’s knees are a whole lot better than mine are at 68.
Paul in KY
@dww44: We don’t have a really deep bench. IMO. To me, it’s harder running as a Democrat. As a GQPer, you just have to screetch about non-issues and hope your gullible voters come out & try and peel off some of our not-so-bright voters, etc. etc. You also have to run against a good portion of the media. I think LBJ was the last Democratic nominee they really liked.
Kathleen
@UncleEbeneezer: This.
zhena gogolia
@trollhattan: Right.
Alison Rose
@Eolirin: It would be great if people in the media would stop seeing “Biden is old” as a hot take. And that includes non-journalists. I cannot even count the number of times Seth Meyers has used the “Biden tripping on the stairs boarding a plane” and “Biden pausing momentarily on a stage when he wasn’t sure where the steps were” clips. And he thinks he’s being so cheeky because he’s like YEAH THAT’S RIGHT I’M GONNA KEEP SHOWING THEM LOL as though that makes it funnier. It’s obnoxious.
Eolirin
@Kent: We don’t need those states to win the presidency, and, with the exception of NV, we win them *after* we win WI, PA, and MI; they’re harder. So they don’t matter for victory; they run up the scoreboard. We need to do well in AZ for the Senate this cycle, and I’m not suggesting we neglect any of those states, but if we lose WI, PA and MI, we aren’t winning NC, GA and AZ.
We can’t run a candidate that loses more than WI and have a chance of winning the Presidency.
UncleEbeneezer
@Eolirin: Trump can barely form coherent sentences. And frankly, from what I’ve seen of him, DeSantis doesn’t come across as anywhere near as intellectual as many claim. Sure DeSantis is not as clueless as Trump, but imo, Biden seems more alert, aware, coherent etc., than either of them.
Eolirin
@Alison Rose: I agree, but it’s the only thing they have that they can attack him on, or make a joke out of, so they’re going to keep doing it.
Kathleen
@karen marie: Invisible “Like” Button pressed.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat:
Not in the slightest! Why would you assume that from what I said?
I absolutely want Biden to run again.
Suzanne
@Brachiator:
Me too. And I hope so!
Lets me #seethrubullshit
Redshift
This is the problem we always have. It’s always going to be easier to get a white guy elected, but we have to balance that against what is better to move the country forward, and to keep our coalition together and energized by not telling them it’s still not their turn.
Maybe the argument for playing it safe should hold more sway when things are on such a knife edge, but it still feels icky.
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose: i stopped watching Colbert for the same reason. I never watched Seth Meyers because . . . not funny?
UncleEbeneezer
@Kathleen: My theory is that:
1.) Russia plants/signal-boosts this stuff in Lefty spaces using trolls
2.) Leftists/Progressives who are always looking for a reason to question/criticize Dems, take the bait and start amplifying it
3.) The Michelle Goldberg’s look around, see it and ten write “People Are Saying” pieces in the Times.
UncleEbeneezer
@Suzanne: I just got glasses! Had I known it would help me further piss off God, I’d have gotten some years ago!!
Kathleen
@SpaceUnit: It is a scam. I also think it’s part of coordinated disinformation attack on democracy and most of the Mainslime Media are willingly complicit.
Kathleen
@UncleEbeneezer: Boom. I think Adam Silverman has made this point in several of his past excellent posts.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: You seemed to agree with her assessment about Harris.
Paul in KY
@UncleEbeneezer: I’ve had glasses since the 3rd grade. Thank God I got em!
citizen dave
I’m old enough to remember when sometimes the media might do an article celebrating and applauding Old Citizen X for doing whatever job/hobby/etc. at their age. So today I googled ‘Biden remarkable achievement age’ and came up with absolutely nothing in the “all” and “news” tabs. Of course the only hits are pieces on his age and is he too old–some from 2020 when he was 78. It seems like he should get a little damn credit for being so physically and mentally with it, and there should be lots of media articles about how he stays in shape. Maybe he should start taking some brisk walks around D.C., outside the WH gates, like Truman did. Invite some R members of congress, see if they can keep up with him…
Kathleen
@Alison Rose: Well show biz has been hijacked by bromedians who snicker and snark about Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and any other outstanding brilliant Democrat, especially if said Democrat is vocal supporter of Black people.
dww44
@Alison Rose: Chevy Chase made a career from doing Gerald Ford pratfalls around 1975. Ford was then in his early 60’s. Comedians have always done this. They’re not ever going to cease and desist from making hay of a politician’s perceived foibles.
TEL
@Paul in KY: Yep – this exactly!
Eolirin
@UncleEbeneezer: Yes but we have no idea who the nominee is going to be, so it’s really impossible to game it out. I think the age thing would be a potentially catastrophic liability if the Republican frontrunner looked like a 2012 Mitt Romney. Fortunately, it doesn’t seem like the Republicans are capable of nominating people like that anymore, and that may be what saves us the senate seat in AZ, but relying on the other side to be trapped in a place where they’re forced to make suboptimal decisions in order for us to be able to win is never comfortable feeling; ultimately there’s only so much we can do, and not losing our democracy is going to depend very heavily on the fascists being unable to seem reasonable while winning primaries.
Jackie
@UncleEbeneezer: That was great!😂
Kathleen
@UncleEbeneezer: Exactly. I have theories about those so called leftist/progressives which I won’t cite here. The other thing I’ve noticed is how Dem Hate LLC is a very lucrative gig in the propatainment industry, which spans “news”, “talk shows”, podcasts, late night bromedy, etc. The message is “it’s not cool to be a ‘corporate’ Democrat – the only cool people are on “the left”. This makes me sick. It feels so orchestrated and coordinated and evil to me.
Eolirin
@dww44: It’s their job even.
randy khan
What strikes me about all of the “Biden shouldn’t run” pieces is that they have almost nothing to do with the actual question, which is whether he will run. I don’t see any reason to think he won’t, and in that case all of these pieces are pointless.
I also think that people who claim that the polls show Trump is vulnerable to DeSantis are doing some cherry picking.
zhena gogolia
@Kathleen: Because it is.
Old School
@Brachiator:
Possibly.
Leviticus Chapter 21:
zhena gogolia
@Eolirin: Only if it’s funny. If it’s not funny, it’s just lazy. Case in point: Chevy Chase.
Eolirin
@zhena gogolia: Hey I never said all of them are good at it. :P
Redshift
@schrodingers_cat:
I hope so, but VPs do not automatically win the nomination. And being an incumbent VP also does not carry the big advantage that being an incumbent president does, so running against them for the nomination isn’t necessarily bad for the party.
sdhays
Biden wasn’t my first choice for President in 2020, and age was a factor in that consideration. But I made my peace with it because, unlike many other politicians, I think Biden is someone who performs introspection on himself, cares deeply about the country as something much bigger than himself, and absolutely listens to people around him who are also good people. So if he gets to the point where he can’t do the job, he’ll do the right thing.
Knowing that, I don’t care about his age anymore. Honestly, there are plenty of younger Presidents who I wouldn’t bet on handling, say, a stroke as responsibly as I trust Biden to handle his age.
Baud
@citizen dave:
Biden will be pretty visible if he runs in 2024. Unlike 2020, he likely won’t need to isolate due to Covid.
trollhattan
@sab: I’d love to take a bike ride with Joe. Then he can maybe give me a ride in his Corvette (no way he lets me drive it).
IMHO Biden’s presidency has invigorated him–he seems livelier and more engaged than in the campaign. Tinted lenses on my part, more competent people looking after him? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
gvg
@karen marie: You know what? Its up to us to make sure we don’t. I don’t KNOW that we can prevent it, but we have to try and I think we need to keep an eye on all possible candidates and make sure every real bad fact gets out there. Preferably with jail time if that is called for.
Some of the stuff deSantis has done seem illegal to me. I’d like it proved in a court of law before 2024.
trollhattan
@Baud: That’s a great point. The covid campaign was weird as hell. He deserves a public inauguration, too.
Dan B
My fear as a gay man is De Santis as president. Democracy dead, of course, but persecution of Trans people, LGB, BIPOC, immigrants, etc. would be increasingly horrifying. Re-education camps, maybe. I’m not sure that liberal Seattle would provide safety. Right wing media has made my in laws a threat, not just as the good people who are quiet, but as people who support the people who want us in our place – out of sight of children.
Brachiator
@Paul in KY:
In 2020 I said that I would happily vote for whoever won the primary. I think the Democrats are still OK.
The GOP don’t have a bench at all. They have been pushed more to the right and their base wants someone who feeds on anger and resentment.
zhena gogolia
@Dan B: He is American Putler.
Redshift
My view is that Biden has done a really good job, and incumbency is a big advantage that we would be foolish to throw away. I have a hard time seeing any disadvantage, age or otherwise, being big enough to offset that.
karensky
@Kent: Only if the media actually do their job instead of performing for each other.
Paul in KY
@zhena gogolia: I probably saw him do it the 1st time (as I am old) and it was funny, as he really fell down these stairs in a manner that looked like he could be injured. The 2nd time thru 3,490th time, not so much.
Jackie
@dww44: Have we forgotten Trump’s need to hold May’s hand going down stairs or using military assistance going down a ramp? How about needing a golf cart because he couldn’t walk the block or two with virtually everyone else?
JMG
Gerald Ford was the best athlete to be President in my lifetime (Truman president of my infancy). He had a varsity football letter at Michigan. Accomplished skier. The reputation for clumsiness started when he beaned a couple of fans in pro-am golf tournaments as VP, which was their own damn fault for thinking amateurs hit it as straight as pros do.
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: I’ll crawl over broken glass to vote for whomever the Democratic nominee is, shitty candidate or not. I want Joe to be our candidate in 2024.
karen marie
It makes me very tired that you all are here taking cues from an oped that is complete bullshit.
The only reason you’re discussing Biden’s age is because Republicans have fed that “problem” to lazy people like Michelle Goldberg and whoever her editor is.
Why is this the topic of conversation rather than – oh, I don’t know – the likely overturning of the North Carolina Supreme Court ruling that threw out a voter-passed constitutional amendment to disenfranchise voters.
UncleEbeneezer
@Kathleen: Yup.
80’s anti-drug commercial: I learned it from
watching youreading him!Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@artem1s: I really liked your comment.
SpaceUnit
I think Biden should run again because I believe he still has the best chance of defeating whoever the Republicans nominate.
If age becomes an issue he can step aside and give the country a chance to see a woman of color in the Oval Office and to get used to the idea.
Steve in the ATL
@Eolirin:
and GA!
Glidwrith
The phrase that stood out to me the most was “an electorate desperate for change”. Just who is she thinking of that desperately wants to get rid of Biden???
Now to read the rest of the comments.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: Meyers can be funny when he goes after Republicans, and it’s not that I think he shouldn’t make jokes about Dems, but those are never as clever. Colbert does less digging at Biden, plus I just think he and his writers are funnier. Although both shows go too hard with silly things that are more cringe than humor.
Betty Cracker
@Redshift:
I agree, and to clarify, it’s not an argument I’m making. But I do think it’s important to be clear-eyed about what a massive sexism and racism problem we have in our politics.
Same with the age issue and how it might affect voters. Some comments almost seem to suggest voter concern about Biden’s age is wholly a media creation or must be part of a Russian influence campaign. They don’t help, but I think it’s real and not unreasonable.
David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch
@Baud:
He’s certainly in better shape than FDR is today
Alison Rose
@dww44: Right, but — while that was before my time, I have seen many clips of it, and it was an intentionally ridiculous parody, not actual video of Ford stumbling slightly on a wrinkled carpet played over and over again as though it proved he had one foot in the grave.
Princess
As someone pointed out in the thread below, Michelle Goldberg hates Biden and wanted him to drop out because of the bogus Tara Reade accusations. Here’s what she wrote then evidently:
“As I’ve written repeatedly, I think Biden is a weak candidate, and I wouldn’t be unhappy if the Democratic Party were forced, by some last-minute emergency, to replace him, maybe with one of the Democratic governors who has shined in response to the coronavirus crisis.”
So, consider the source. For me, how people reacted to the Reade accusations is a litmus test.
Is he too old? Probably! In some kind of objective sense. He didn’t have to do a full campaign last time because of Covid. Campaigns are draining. I think it hurt Romney against Obama — do you remember how he vanished in September 2012? for a week or so? But get rid of the best president in my lifetime and hold a primary? Are people nuts?! I expect we’re going to see a lot more of Harris on the campaign trail this time, and that will be good for both of them, and for us.
David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch
@JMG:
It started long before that. Beginning in the early 60s LBJ would openly say “Ford can’t chew gum and piss at the same time”
lowtechcyclist
@zhena gogolia:
Actually, I thought Chevy Chase did a quite funny job of merging the response to the assassination attempts on Ford with the impression of Ford being clumsy (“alert Secret Service agents seized the fork and wrestled it to the ground”). But to each their own.
prostratedragon
@Sister Golden Bear: The newest Vera episode has a trans woman secondary character and a glimpse of her life.
Baud
All this talk about Biden’s age is avoiding the real reason he shouldn’t run: Unemployment is too damn low and no one wants to work anymore. We don’t need four more years of either.
lowtechcyclist
@Princess:
Seconded!
trollhattan
@Old School: Hence, my aversion to curtains.
Paul in KY
@lowtechcyclist: Was that a Weekend Update segment?
Kent
What I am saying is that your calculation is wrong. You are doing 2016 math. It may well be the case that Arizona and Georgia are EASIER states to win in 2024. They are changing and so is WI. And a candidate that does well in AZ or GA may be different from a candidate who does well in WI.
I’m saying it is a strategic error to base a 2024 campaign on winning WI and choosing your nominee to achieve that end. There are a lot of potential candidates who might be better positioned to win either AZ or GA than WI.
Baud
@David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch:
“Fuck LBJ!”—Raven and Ford.
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
“We can’t treat the workers like damned serfs anymore, if they can walk out and find another job at the drop of a hat! We’ve got to do something about this horrid state of affairs, need to get back to the days when workers were afraid that if they got kicked out of that eight dollar an hour job, they wouldn’t be able to find another! Gotta get a Republican back in the White House, by gum!”
lowtechcyclist
@Paul in KY: I believe so, but my memory isn’t always reliable, going back nearly half a century.
trollhattan
@JMG: He also married well–Betty was a dish, who danced with the Martha Graham troupe.
https://www.archives.gov/files/presidential-libraries/events/centennials/bettyford/images/betty-bloomer-dance-camp.jpg
Renie
I live in George Santos district so I know the media is a failure and people are too stupid to think about who they are voting for. With that qualification, I’m also a white middle class 66 year old retiree. If Joe wants to run again, I’m all in for Joe. If the GOP runs someone 20+ years younger than Joe, the contrast by the media will be 24/7 non-stop. I would like to see a new breed of Democrats step up. But I don’t see this country, as it is now, electing Kamala Harris for president. Too many ignorant people.
Glidwrith
@Sister Golden Bear: Ah, the Botoxed, face-lifted, tummy-tucked, blowfish-lipped, brow-plucking, hair-plugged Christofascists?
Redshift
@Betty Cracker:
Oh, I definitely got that. Agree on all points.
Sister Golden Bear
@Dan B: Same. I’m absolutely terrified of what DeSantis would do, especially if Republicans also control the House and Senate. But even potential executive actions alone could calamitous, e.g. invalidating my passport because “lied” about my gender.
cain
@schrodingers_cat: A lot of them are part of the Reagan era and cut their teeth in the 90s going after Clinton.
I think we have a lot of these peoples who are running the manager parts and are asking these journalists that garner reactions that maximizes exposure and that always means something that elicit emotional responses and every liberal is triggered with right wing nonsense.
Redshift
@Renie:
But that’s just it – they won’t be running generic Republican who’s 20 years younger and has no other distinguishing characteristics.
Your comment was kind of a light bulb moment for me — I think this whole discussion really is in the same vein as the stories we so often get, where an incumbent Democrat polls not to well against a pre-nomination unnamed Republican/”somebody else”, but in the end polls just fine against who they actually nominate.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Suzanne: @Brachiator:
Burn the witches and blashemers! \wingnut
lowtechcyclist
@Sister Golden Bear:
An abomination is anything sex- or gender-related that gives them the willies. That’s all.
Otherwise, anyone who got laser eye surgery (for just one for-instance of choosing to change one’s body) would get kicked out of their congregations.
raven
@JMG: And he bumped his head on the chopper door and fell down the stairs “deplaning”. And yes, he was a very good athlete and Fuck Michigan!!!
David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch
@Sister Golden Bear:
Meh, regarding passports, I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.
Kay
I think Biden is fine cognitively and physically but he looks and sounds old and that hurts him. It’s a negative that can be overcome with positives – the positive is he’s done a very good job.
he’s the best candidate by far even with the “looks and sounds old” problem and following the dreadful NY Times political team advice is suicide :)
Baud
@Kay:
Agree on all points.
Kent
I agree. My dad is 2 years older than Biden and I can see that he is starting to fade. I’m sure everyone has similar stories.
The fact of the matter is that the GOP and conservative media are going to pour dump truck loads of feces into their giant fans and coat the walls with it. It will be Biden’s age and senility, Hunter Biden, trans-panic, CRT, drug dealers crossing the “open” border, gas prices, etc. etc. And probably a bunch of new bullshit we haven’t even heard yet. It isn’t Michelle Goldberg we need to worry about. It is a bazillion fake stories on FaceBook about how a senile Biden is being manipulated by Harris and the deep state, etc.
No matter who is the candidate, they better fucking have their A Game ready because it will be relentless and unceasing.
Citizen Alan
@Joe Falco: I would add that RGB only needed to last another 2 months for Biden to have replaced her. Or alternatively, she could have died when she did and still been replaced by Biden had the republicans chosen not to be the most venal hypocrite in human history.
trollhattan
@Renie: I can’t argue. Misogyny is a hurdle we have yet to clear as a nation.
With that out of the way, lord how I dread Possum Queen’s SOTU rebuttal. Will she take time out to insult Jim Acosta? Whee!
trollhattan
@lowtechcyclist: You must use Jesus’ personal laser, however.
Baud
Martin
@Kent: Fuck, I’m 26 years younger than Joe and I can see *I’m* starting to fade.
My position remains unchanged – in an ideal world I’d want a president who is *barely* age eligible. (For context, AOC is barely age eligible.) That said, whichever Dem is most likely to win (and I don’t have a case that it isn’t Biden) has my full support.
Much as I might wish it, I don’t get to live in a hypothetical world.
Betty Cracker
@Dan B: & @Sister Golden Bear: The thought of DeSantis getting anywhere near the Oval Office is completely terrifying, and now he’s got Trump trying to outflank him to be the most anti-trans 2024 candidate. (Axios) Remember when Trump said Caitlyn Jenner should use whatever bathroom she wants? Now the whole damn party is following Abbott and DeSantis off a cliff.
Baud
@Martin:
Remarkably similar to Leonardo DiCaprio’s position on dating.
dww44
@Brachiator: This is exactly how I feel and how I want to have the guts to directly confront the friends and relatives who voted for the man twice. It is galling that they did so.
Sure Lurkalot
@WaterGirl: I’m so very sorry to second your opinion that Kamala Harris would not win a general election for the presidency. Not in 2024 if Biden decides not to run. Not in 2028. Probably not in my lifetime.
There are just too many backward, racist and misogynistic voices in this country and they are amplified by a spineless media more interested in selling books and getting clicks. We’ve monetized fucking everything and shouldn’t be surprised that we have a “what’s in it for me” society.
VOR
I wish Biden were 20 years younger, but if my options are Biden vs. whatever the Republicans puke up, be it TFG or the authoritarian from Florida, I’m crawling over broken glass to vote for Biden.
UncleEbeneezer
@Betty Cracker: Trump may not have had any real passion for pushing LGBTQ-phobia, but his base always has. They are the ones leading. Trump, DeSatan and Abbott are meeting the MAGA Primary voters where they are, sadly.
trollhattan
@Baud: “Forever 25” also a very popular clothing store in malls.
pat
I think I’ll cancel my subscription to the NYT. Michelle Goldberg (and Paul Krugman) was the only reason to go there.
She totally lost me when she suggested Whitmer and Warnock in place of Biden. Talk about clueless!
trollhattan
@UncleEbeneezer: Dude can read a crowd well enough to spew whatever spew they wish him to, well, spew at them. “Yee-haw!” Space aliens and turtle groomers? “Today, yes!”
Suzanne
@Sure Lurkalot:
I have heard it surmised (though I can’t remember where) that the first woman to be elected to the presidency will be a Republican.
As much as I hate that, it’s possibly correct.
Eolirin
@Kent: The electoral math doesn’t work without MI and PA, even with GA and AZ, so I really don’t think so.
We’d need to add NC, GA and AZ to make up for losing WI, PA and MI. I don’t see a universe in which that happens in the near term. The electorate hasn’t shifted that much. Maybe we can very narrowly lose WI, and it’d have to be very narrowly for us to still be winning PA and MI, and win one of those three states, but we can’t lose MI and PA, and it’s very unlikely we win one and not the other.
UncleEbeneezer
@Kathleen: The worst possibility for Putin in 2016 was for Hillary to win. This time it would be for Biden to get re-elected. Putin knows the Left loves “greener grass” fantasies and to fight amongst ourselves. And he knows that a whole lot of Dems/Progressives will signal boost anything from Hillary’s Emails, Fainting to StudentLoans!!1! and Biden’s-Too-Old. I had a very loyal Dem express misgivings about Biden’s age last year. I pressed her for policy disappointments, who would be better etc., and she had no answers. It was just “Such a shame we got stuck with an old, white dude.” Which to me seemed the same sort of amplification of Social Justice Twitter tropes, in action, as we’ve seen before (and that we now know Russia/GRU pushed). As Trump starts actually getting back into the public eye, and smart/loyal Dems like Obama, Abrams, Newsom etc., go to bat for Biden, I think this shit will dissipate. It’s just annoying that we have to go through this bullshit again.
pat
eta: I’m afraid Kamala has very little chance as well. Especially with all the media reports of her not doing anything….. like a VP should always be in the news doing something.
And how about more reporting on Biden’s accomplishments? Many here have already gone there and I agree completely.
the other problem, maybe even bigger, is that you never know where people are going for their (mis)information. There are two (or more) different universes out there.
How many people for example, actually read the NYT? Watch the evening news? Get all their information from social media? You can find anything that you want to believe.
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: Yep, Trump is a gross hypocrite on this and countless other issues. I’ll never forget a pre-2016 election interview when he got ahead of the anti-choice fanatics and said “you have to punish the woman” for getting an abortion, then walked it back when his handlers explained that this was a politically inconvenient statement.
As for DeSantis, I’m pretty sure he never said a peep about drag queens or trans people or CRT in the 2018 campaign and well into his first term. He’s an opportunist who spotted an opening somewhere along the way. I think Christopher Rufo and people like that created a buzz around those issues among the hard right and DeSantis glommed onto it. He’s smarter than Trump, which is a low bar, but I’m not sure he’s ever had an original thought in his life.
piratedan
I guess when its Corporate Media, the main emphasis should be on Corporate and for some reason, Corporate seems to imply an obsessive need to gather wealth and to subvert the environment so that can continue without threat. There’s nothing there about people themselves unless its about those who run the Corporation itself.
Everyone else can pound sand.
Not every business runs like this these days, but there are enough of them that are so concerned with their own unassailability that they see any regulation as a threat. Seems like all of the bad actors just naturally gravitate to the guys who just want their taste and will leave them alone otherwise and that means the GOP has faucets of cash to keep them afloat.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Suzanne: I don’t think a woman could win the GOP primary. I won’t be at all surprised if we have a GOP female VP as long as the president is young enough they aren’t worried about her having real power. For a big chunk of the GOP base, women must always be second fiddle to a man.
trollhattan
O/T looks like the Navy found balloon bits. Big bits at that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64562100
Suppose Joe will need to add balloon chat to SOTU. Will we know anything about its capabilities? I’ll be surprised.
Eolirin
@Betty Cracker: He’s also much better at understanding how to consolidate and wield power, which scares the fuck out of me.
Baud
@Suzanne: I don’t know, but I recall people said the same thing about the first black president.
It took a lot of work by a lot of bad men to defeat Hillary.
Sister Golden Bear
@David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch: I realize you’re joking, but a lots of trans people — including me — are looking at ways to leave the country if things get bad enough. So not having a passport would be hugely problematic.
Yes, being able to leave is extremely privileged, and yes I much prefer to stay and fight. But I also don’t want to be the one of the people sent to camps either.
Kent
@Eolirin: Yes but WI and PA are two completely different states that are trending in opposite directions with MI kind of in the middle. All I’m saying is that you can’t use 2016 math to decide which states will provide a majority in 2024. It might well be PA, GA, and AZ
Elections aren’t some continuum where all the states are ordered from blue to red and you just have to push the needle far enough to the blue side until you hit 270. It is not a linear game, it is a 3-dimensional game. A candidate who is best positioned to win WI may not be the candidate best positioned to win GA.
Betty Cracker
@Eolirin: That’s absolutely true. He’s running this entire state like a jumped-up Boss Hogg.
Sister Golden Bear
I’m grimly amused that today Trump is heavily leaning into implying DeSantis is pedophile.
dww44
@Hoodie:
I’m just now going back through this thread and catching up on some of the responses to my initial post. They confirm my initial reservations about posting my minority opinion on the matter of Biden and whether he should run again. While yours isn’t the only one, what bothers me about your response is labeling my concern about Biden’s stamina as “crap”. As one who has experienced a noticeable decline in stamina (the ability to function on all cylinders throughout the day), I think your remark is unnecessarily demeaning.
Respectfully, these sorts of remarks do not promote a space where people can share opinions that differ with the majority expressed in that space. Others, like Betty Cracker’s , are respectful of my different opinion. It truly does take some intestinal fortitude to come here and post an opinion that’s likely guaranteed to rile up so many.
Baud
The question for people who don’t want Biden to run: Do you want him to announce that he’s not running because other people think he’s too old even though he thinks he can do the job? Or would you be asking him to make up a health reason for not running? I’m just trying to think about how this would play out in the real world.
David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch
@trollhattan:
Where they green?
columbusqueen
@trollhattan: Contact with people energizes Joe in a big way. Campaigning under the yolk of Covid restrictions wasn’t ideal for him, so I expect this next go round to be much livelier.
Dan B
@Sister Golden Bear: I was born in Akron in ’49. The only time I’d heard the word homosexual was in the Joe McCarthy hearings. My teenaged years were very lonely and depressing. I had the feeling that I might never find anyone else gay. And then I was booted out of Architecture school where I’d been in an honors program. I was lucky I wasn’t put in a mental institution and subjected to electroshock like a friend. DeSantis would love to bring back that era and worse.
Citizen Alan
@Suzanne: I used to think that, but I don’t anymore. The Republican base is too dependent upon people who believe as a matter of religious faith that a woman should never be in a position of authority over a man. They’ll let a woman be a member of Congress or even a governor because they’re too ignorant to think of those as being real jobs with actual importance. But commander and chief of the military? No way. That’s man’s work, just like God intended.
dearmaizie
NotMax
Just in case no one’s mentioned it. Besides the usual venues, can view the speech at
https://wh.gov/sotu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzcBTUvVp7M
(for Spanish speakers) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dN6fl_yULg
Martin
@Glidwrith:
Literally everyone under 40. We still continually underestimate how completely hopeless we’ve made life for young people. Grind it out in school, take your AP, do your volunteer and extracurriculars so that you might get into a decent college, grind it out there so that you might get hired at a job that would allow you to pay off your loans, and if you’re super lucky make enough to in 15 years afford a downpayment on a house. Hope along the way that investors don’t decide that Google’s 14 billion in profits last quarter require laying off 6% of the workforce (as one of the employers that might meet the above conditions) because why let workers have housing when I could buy a 2nd yacht. Along the way, destroy the climate and do nothing about it. Along the way blame them for being lazy and foisting Trump on us for not voting.
Just an anecdote – my son did all of that. Has a degree in electrical engineering from a top university no less. No debt – we covered it. Got a great job at a tech firm just outside of Silicon Valley that still pays valley wages but where housing is a bit cheaper. He makes 6 figures and has full benefits. He doesn’t own a car – rides his bike. He cooks for himself. Eats out occasionally, but doesn’t do delivery except when he’s sick. He has no streaming service subs. Doesn’t drink. He is financially as low footprint as you could reasonably expect someone to be, other than having a roommate. He’s done *everything*. Hell, half his appliances came from Goodwill that he repaired. He figures in 6 years he might be able to buy a place, provided housing inflation stops.
None of us, and mean NONE OF US hustled that hard and hit the high notes the way pundits said he would need to, just to do things like afford a house. We all had an easier path.
Now think of the student with the social sciences degree, where 6 figures is *maybe* a mid-career salary, not a starting one. Or the students with 2 year degrees, or trade school.
The poverty cutoff in my *county* for one person, no kids, is $76,000 a year. Even with McDonalds paying $20/hr, you’re about half of the poverty cutoff if you’re full time. Median home price here is $1.3M. With the 20% down rule that we all grew up with – that’s $260 large you gotta have in the bank.
Young people have had to grind so much that they’ve forgone relationships. Almost nobody in my son’s high school dated – at least seriously. Nobody had the time. Lot of friend with benefit kinds of setups. He was in marching band. It was a big marching band – 15% of the school was in it. The drum majors would set up the students so they had dates for prom because almost nobody had a girl/boyfriend. The drum majors knew everyone’s personality, and who got along with who. It worked out pretty well. So even social relationships were sacrificed.
50% of gen z describe having so much anxiety as to be non-functional. Mostly because older generations like mine – X and boomers, of course, did fine, got the benefits of investing in an economy in the 80s or 90s or whenever we rolled out of school, could be a Brett Kavanaugh and still make it onto the Supreme Court or a Donald Trump and make it on Wall Street (which used to be nothing but C-average douchebags) and ride our housing equity and 401Ks to safety. Meanwhile, they’re being told how to hide under their desk and oh, by the way, when you turn 40, sea level rise will have destroyed all the coastal cities and your cat will permanently be on fire. They grew up post 9/11, where every dollar for education got steered into bombing Iraqi weddings, post-Columbine, post-great recession.
We fucked them HARD, and have the nerve to tell them that their avocado toast is why they can’t afford a house. More than half of then gave up on the house. Might as well aspire to a megayacht. The toast is the best they’re going to get. 40% of Gen Z don’t plan on having kids because they expect the future will be too terrible.
We *really* discount how badly we’ve fucked up young people. That older generations continue to behave like nothing is happening just compounds the problem. Sure, we *talk* about it. We say we’ll vote that way. But we won’t *really* do anything about it. I used my accumulated wealth to put up solar, sell my car, change my diet on top of advocating, giving to causes, attending rallies, etc. But I look around and while I’m not the only one, I have VERY little company.
I worked at a university. Every day 95% of the people I interacted with were 18-24. That’s how old they were when I started the job and that’s how old they were when I retired. And they changed. A lot. I’d have lunch with them, and we’d chat, and they’d share. They haven’t given up, but they don’t expect to live to our age. They really don’t. They’ll make the best of this they can, but they have almost no hope for the future. Without us, they won’t make it, and we ain’t showing up.
Overall, their expectations for Joe were so low that he’s seriously impressed them. They like him, they’ll vote for him. But at the same time, he’s not changing the culture. There’s a term of art in mathematics and logic: necessary but not sufficient. It means to meet a given condition you need this thing, but you also need more. A polyhedron having 4 right angles is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a square. You also need 4 equal length sides.
Joe Biden is a necessary but not sufficient candidate. Necessary means they aren’t voting for a Republican. But their prospects haven’t changed because of him. He’s not sufficient to doing that. He won’t make things worse. He’s also not able to make them better, at least materially better.
David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch
@dearmaizie:
that was concise
Martin
@Sister Golden Bear: I mean, we kinda all suspect it. He’s got that vibe about him.
David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch
@trollhattan:
Reports say the equipment was stamped “Made in China”
Baud
@Martin:
We have no one on our bench who can change the culture any more swiftly than it is already changing. Might as well ask for the president to perform alchemy.
dearmaizie
LOL.
Lost the goddamned comment (because of that annoying tab on the left side of the comments box) trying to highlight a quotation from another NYT commenter and instead of doing that it took me back one page, comment gone. Damn you blogging gods.
Tom Q.
Lots of commentary on this subject, and I may be repeating some of it, but my general take:
Incumbency ALWAYS helps. There’s no offsetting issue strong enough to make tossing an incumbent a plus for the party. An unchallenged incumbent with an economy not in recession is almost impossible to beat.
And the idea that a competitive primary by the incumbent party strengthens their candidacy is 101% bullshit; I don’t know why people keep propounding this when all 20th and 21st century electoral history refutes in. (See 1952, 1968 for starters.)
I don’t know how many of you were around in 1984, but Reagan utterly lost the plot in a debate with Mondale; pretty much telegraphing the much-later-released news that he was an Alzheimer’s casualty. And it’s not like the press let it go: they absolutely pounced on him, calling in “The Age Issue”. A few weeks later, he carried 49 states. Yeah, I know: he came up with a 1-liner in the next debate that solved everything. Another press myth. The actual fact is, people didn’t really care; they wanted the administration to continue, and ignored the evidence of their senses. Basic point: Biden being old will not overrule the other election fundamentals.
Certainly not suggesting misogyny isn’t a big issue (even, to my dismay, among liberal men). But I think Harris’ negative image is largely a result of online murmurs that people absorb unconsciously (when they say “There’s something about her I just don’t like”, they might as well be admitting they’re buying into whisper campaigns — which, as someone noted above, is fed to the Internet from, among other places, Russia). If the Biden/Harris ticket were to be re-elected, and Biden were to step down/become incapacitated during the second term, it would be the BEST thing for Harris: people would then have to deal with her as something actual, rather than something they’ve heard second-hand. I honestly think that’s how we’ll get out first female president, and, once that ice is broken, it may stay broken.
It’s interesting to me how it’s not only right-wingers who want to deny the findings of the infamous 2012 GOP autopsy, it’s also Dems. The country is moving inexorably toward demographics that favor Democrats — in states like GA and AZ, among others. Presuming we’ll be in the same “it all comes down to WI/MI/PA” into infinity is ignoring this fact.
Trump temporarily derailed that inevitability, but only with the laser-like help of the electoral college. I question if DeSantis has the same potential to rev up those rural voters the way Trump did to make it happen. Whatever you think of Trump, he has a big personality, and is colorful — in a horrible way, like the loudest school bully, but the one you have to admit occasionally gets off a funny line. DeSantis has none of that (nor Trump’s celebrity); I think the idea that he has Trump’s virtues without his drawbacks gets it exactly backward. I think GOP turnout could actually drop with someone as bland as DeSantis at the top of the ticket.
Sure Lurkalot
@Sister Golden Bear:
I’m so sorry is inadequate but I just want to weep when I think about what you have to think about.
Jeffro
Um
trumpov is trolling DeSantis on ‘truth’ social about being a groomer and providing teens with alcohol
MTG is seriously running around with a white balloon today and is possibly bringing it to the SOTU. So much for all that hard-earned seriousness and credibility she was striving for! LOL. Nuts gonna nut.
A weary nation is going to put its eggs back in the Biden basket without hesitation if the GQP keeps this up for 2 years (and they will)
Baud
@Citizen Alan:
Disagree. They let them have those jobs because they understand they are competing with liberals in the marketplace of ideas and for the heats and minds of voters. Without us, they would have no incentive or inclination to elect anyone but white men for any leadership position.
Mike in NC
The one thing we can expect from the GOP going into 2024 is how radical and extreme they’ll be. Answer: very! Anticipate ‘getting tough on China’ and ‘all culture wars all the time’ to be their twin platforms. Trump, DeSantis, and whoever else goes for their nomination will be running to the right of one another until there’s only one asshole left standing.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Haven’t you heard about candidate Not
HimHer? Very popular. Extremely high favorability among voters.Baud
@Mike in NC:
It’s remarkable that abortion hasn’t come up. Will people no longer care by 2024. Surely the GOP candidates will outdo each other on extremism in their primary.
hueyplong
I’m kind of sick of stupid and/or bad faith “suggestions” that Democrats give away the very real advantage of incumbency.
If Biden’s health changes for the worse in a second term, he can step down then.
cain
@Martin: 100% this – and now you got all these other laws. Even when we’re trying to help them – you have one fucking party looking to waste them by blocking things like student loans.
We’re also giving them climate change on top of all that.
The things we’ll do to keep white men in charge.
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
Yeah, people feel the way they’re going to feel, but I’m not going to pretend their desires are realistic if they’re not. If it hurts us, it hurts us. There’s only so much you can do.
Suzanne
@Martin: I agree with you 100% on this.
This country has left them a steaming pile of shit.
I have shared before that many of the young people I discuss politics with — who are mostly junior staff colleagues and Spawn and his friends — do not care as much about healthcare issues as we might want them to, because they feel fucked on student debt and housing. And those are immediate crises for them and healthcare is probably not an immediate crisis.
Glory b
@Miss Bianca: She says she doesn’t read them, conveniently.
Martin
@Baud: It’s why they are demanding radical change. Incrementalism is too slow. It’s why they were attracted to Bernie.
The risk is that this gives rise to ecofascism, which is growing. The Unabomber was an ecofasicst. The Christchurch shooter and the El Paso shooters were both ecofascists. Basically, Malthusians. Get rid of half the population and the climate crisis is solved. The only question is which half? I don’t think we need to guess too much as to which half (Sister Golden Bear understands this very clearly) but anyone see Logan’s Run? Yeah, killing off old people is pretty popular too. You know, like not trying *too* hard to stop Covid when it’s going a pretty efficient job of killing people over 65.
Sometimes the desperation for radical change because nobody is doing anything trumps which kind of radical change. Wiping out Medicare and Social Security? Well, that could both reduce the population and save a few bucks to invest in climate infrastructure. Maybe that wouldn’t be so bad? I mean, as things are young people have zero expectation they’ll live long enough to use it anyway.
Baud
@Martin:
Understood. I’ve said before it wouldn’t surprise me if younger generations become the reactionary conservatives they currently hate. That happened to the boomers too. It doesn’t change the fact that we don’t have a magic pill that solves everything all at once.
lowtechcyclist
@Martin:
I think it would suck to be that President. Imagine being in your mid-40s, having finished your second term as President, and the entire rest of your life is anticlimax.
Also, it’s a rare person that has the maturity and breadth of experience at that age that a complex job like the Presidency calls for. Even in my much less complex job, my best years were in my mid to late 50s. Before then, I was still putting the pieces together.
Glory b
@Martin: AND you think a different president will change all that? Really? How?
Princess
@Tom Q.: Yeah, I agree that the best thing for us is Biden in 2024, and if he stepped down for Harris some time after, it would be a good thing. Because while I have my doubts she can win election, I do think she’d have a much better chance at RE-election.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Martin: I sympathize a LOT with what you are saying. I might be Gen X, but I couldn’t afford a house until I was in my 30s and still needed help with the downpayment. I was in graduate school with 911 happened. Most of my career has been in the world after 911, and I’d say I had it easier than they have. Gen X had it definitely harder than Boomers and Silents, but better than Millenials and Gen Z. But here’s the thing, I’m part of a small generation. Gen Z & Millenials outnumber my generation by a lot. If they want change, they have to MAKE it happen and they can. They have to run for office. They have to show up to vote, which too few of them do. They have to push their friends to show up to the polls. They have to actively push back on the BS coming from their elders within their own families. Social change almost always comes from youth movements. They have a lot more power than they realize. The GOP realizes it. Half of what they do is intended to demoralize.
Baud
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I believe under 45 is now a majority of eligible voters.
Al Rennick
God Bless Michelle Goldberg, she’s 100% correct!
Given the high probability that Biden would not serve out the entirety of a second term due to death in office or a resignation due to the onset of dementia, it’s unconscionable for Democrats to re-nominate an 82-year-old man. Whatever assets Biden may possess are significantly outweighed by the inescapable truth that he’s too old to serve another 4 years as President.
You jackals need to wake up and start paying attention to these polls.
Biden 2024? Most Democrats say no thank you: AP-NORC poll
Little enthusiasm for Biden-Trump rematch seen in new poll
Suzanne
@Glory b:
I don’t think he said that, not at all.
trollhattan
@columbusqueen: That makes a lot of sense. Agree his strengths seem to be one-on-one and small-group communications. He’s old-school that way.
Matt McIrvin
@Kathleen: I used to follow a lot of comedians and aspiring comedians on Twitter. It seems like for a lot of people in that community the one thing you can’t be is a Democratic Party liberal–it’s just too dorky an alignment. If you’re not a right-wing shock bro, you’re some kind of dirtbag-left-curious revolutionary socialist. If you actually do identify as liberal, you have to spend most of your time talking about how disappointing and cringey Democrats are.
zhena gogolia
@Martin: I totally disagree with this. I do not want a 35-year-old as president. Not mature enough.
Isn’t that as ridiculous as a blanket rejection of Biden because of his age?
pat
@Al Rennick:
Finally, someone disagreeing with 95% of the commenters on this thread.
Thank goodness for the new thread…. I’m out of here.
Suzanne
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Youth turnout was apparently really big in 2020 and 2022.
I’m sorry, I am tired of older people saying what young people need to do. Those are our kids. They didn’t ask to be born. They don’t owe us anything. It’s incumbent on older people and the adults in their lives to tee them and their world up for success. It is beyond time for a massive transfer of resources.
Cheryl from Maryland
@UncleEbeneezer: Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Wanda and Roy, Jr. are just perfect together.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Technically speaking, no one owes anyone anything. Not in any enforceable way.
Matt McIrvin
@zhena gogolia: I want Supreme Court Justices on my side who are barely age-eligible, because that’s a lifetime appointment.
Sister Golden Bear
@Dan B: I’m so sorry.
My teenage years (in the late 70s/early 80s) were similar except I didn’t even know trans people existed. I just knew I was “different” and thought I was the only one in the world who felt that way.
I gave on any hope of a long-term relationship because I assumed someone would ran away if they learned who I really was. It was the major reasons I put up so many walls that took years of therapy to undo.
And you’re so right, that’s exactly the world DeSantis and the other Christofascists want to revive.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
I plan to nominate a fetus just to mess with the right.
Suzanne
@Baud: I’m sure that’s news to the IRS.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: How many of them actually vote though? How many turned out to vote for their Magic Grandpa who promised them free things
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Remember how dare they tell us to vote!
Martin
@Baud: I don’t think so. They don’t blame democracy, they blame capitalism. Part of the problem getting workers – they aren’t going to a willing party to the system that is killing them.
Doesn’t mean they won’t be reactionaries, though. Just in a different way.
There is no need for a pill. The olds could do them a solid and be reactionaries on their behalf. I mean, we have all the money and power. We could do that. We could, as a group, divest from fossil fuels. Take a lower return on our retirement plan. We could, as a group, all take those tax credits and some of our savings and install solar on our houses (given that we’re the only ones who has them). We could, as a group, show up in city council meetings and zoning meetings and overwhelm the old, retired NIMBYs and demand transit, affordable housing. Hell, there’s this CRAZY new idea called ‘public housing’. It’s non-market housing – residents just pay for the cost of construction and upkeep and not the profits of the private equity firms that will jack up rents to the point that you literally can’t afford to live there any more. We could do that. A lot of us are retired. We literally have nothing better to do with our time. And I’m like the only old guy shouting down the NIMBYs at mine, so I know y’all ain’t showing up. Lot of college age people at those meetings, though. They’re taking time out of their lives. Just having a few people like me there to back them up means a LOT, because nobody takes them seriously.
Just, get their back. We owe them that. They’ll do the work, we just gotta plow the road for them. Get out of their way, lift them up.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Suzanne: The youth turnout was bigger than usual, and less than their elders. If more elders who don’t want change show up than young people who do want change, you don’t get change.
Baud
@Martin:
I’m sorry, but any solution that requires an entire large demographic to act in union simply a nonstarter. If young people are waiting for another group of people to do something for them, they’ve already lost.
zhena gogolia
@Martin: What the fuck did Bernie ever do for anybody? Could someone answer me that? He’s been in the Senate forever. What the fuck has he done?
dearmaizie
@David 🎈🕵️The Establishment 📸🛩 Koch:
Well, hell. Screwed that up too. I meant this for you.
LOL.
Lost the goddamned comment (because of that annoying tab on the left side of the comments box) trying to highlight a quotation from another NYT commenter and instead of doing that it took me back one page, comment gone. Damn you blogging gods.
zhena gogolia
@Matt McIrvin: Well, yes, but that’s different.
dearmaizie
@Miss Bianca: She is.
Suzanne
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: As Martin says, the olds can also do it.
Just like men can get on board with feminism and whites can get on bard with anti- racism — AND THEY SHOULD — older and middle-aged people can use the supposed wider perspective and life experience that age has apparently bestowed, and do the right thing on someone else’s behalf.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: He hates immigrants and Democrats, that’s enough for most people. Oh and wagging his finger in your face also helps with the popularity.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia:
Bernie centered their concerns and shaped a vision for the future that they found inspiring.
I get that that is really more the role of a thought leader than an elected official, but it isn’t nothing.
Layer8Problem
I could have sworn that putz was in my pie filter . . .
Martin
@zhena gogolia: Respectfully, fuck you. JFK was 43 when he was inaugurated. Sanna Marin is 37 and navigated Sweden into NATO. As woman, no less.
Ruben Gallego is 43, went to Harvard, studied foreign relations. 6 years in the Marines. Joe Manchin is 75, went to UWV on a football scholarship, and inherited the family business and is an actual coal baron.
You’d rather have Joe? Just because he’s old?
I don’t reject Biden because of his age. I would prefer someone who is more viscerally tapped into the problems we face in the future, rather than too often fighting the problems from the past. FFS, half of Congress still thinks we’re fighting the Cold War, which ended 31 years ago.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Martin: @Suzanne:
Those are great ideas for when I do retire. At this point, its at least a decade before we can even think about it. In the mean time, we having caretaking responsibilities related to aging parents and are grateful we don’t have kids. Some of our friends are dealing with caretaking for both children and parents. Again, I get why they are so mad at capitalism. Its not like I just work 40 hours a week or have a pension.
Suzanne
@Baud:
That is literally the entire process of having children. I mean, have we forgotten that?
zhena gogolia
@Martin: Fuck you too, most respectfully. I guess you didn’t read the second line of my comment.
zhena gogolia
Great, let’s give up. Let’s lose 2024 because we’ve scrapped (or damaged) our incumbent. The young people will really love living in DeSantis’s Putinesque concentration camp.
Martin
@Suzanne: Right, the ‘young people don’t vote’ trope doesn’t apply. It didn’t ever really apply, other than to one set of young voters. The young people who didn’t vote when that trope was minted aren’t young any more – they’re in their late 30s. It’s the same fallacy as ‘you get more conservative as you get older’. No, people who were conservative when they were young stayed conservative, but didn’t stay young. They got old. They were *replaced* by the next generation who were more liberal, and more liberal the generation after.
In 2022, the 30 and under vote completely negated the boomer vote. By age, only 65+ are reliably conservative. Below 65 it splits on gender – with men voting GOP and women voting dem. But the 30 and under vote so *strongly* for Dems that they negate the much larger 65+ vote which is more narrowly split.
Young people and women of color of all ages are carrying the Democratic Party now. What they lack in numbers they make up in reliable, unwavering support.
Baud
@Suzanne: I don’t understand. First, sex is fun in itself, not altruistic. Second, the two people having sex aren’t doing anything for a third person because said third person doesn’t exist yet. Third, I don’t get how you can extrapolate from sex to the actions of a larger nationwide polity of adults of all ages.
Groups of people who feel disenfranchised look for allies. They don’t sit back and wait for other people to have come-to-Jesus moments. Where would civil rights be if black leaders simply sat around and asked themselves “when are white people going to wake up?”
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia:We will prevail, tune out these negative Nellies.
Betty Cracker
@Martin: My kiddo is 24 — can confirm. Thanks for writing that. I think we old farts around here forget how much has changed sometimes.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: So old I remember not only Big Pharma flack and Murdoch-family business partner Susan Sarandon tilling us “Four years of trump will bring us the revolution!”
In fairness, in 2001, even if I was never stupid enough to fall for Ralph Nader, Michael Moore and Bill Maher (ETA) and Sarandon telling me there wasn’t a dime’s worth of difference between Rs and Ds, I thought four years of the stammering idiot from Fairfield County and Walker’s Point by way of Texas that Rs would be finished as a national party.
J R in WV
From the previous thread, where I commented:
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think at some point everyone has fallen for the dream that most people are just like us and will eventually see things the way we do.
Suzanne
@Baud:
Many people actually want and plan to have children. Oftentimes, they prepare well in advance of pregnancy.
And I believe that a well-run society invests in children — and even people who don’t have kids need to do so — as those kids grow up to be the adults who keep society running. This is a basic tenet of civilization at this point.
Brachiator
@Baud:
Someone who doesn’t wear pants should know how to include three or more people in the fun.
ian
@Martin: When you get to the point of a comment thread that you write “fuck you” to someone, it is generally a good sign to put the keyboard down and think of something more productive.
Seriously, how many people in your life have you persuaded to your argument by writing that?
Baud
@Suzanne:
Well, I do too. But I’m a liberal. A lot of older people are not, and they’re not going to change. I would love to join with any young people that want to join me and helping weaken the influence of those particular old people. But if they don’t want to be a part of that, I have no choice but to respect their decision.
StringOnAStick
The only good thing about this op-ed is that plenty of Biden haters will read it, and the first part is an excellent summary of all the amazing things he has accomplished, something the MSM seems categorically unable/unwilling to do. They can’t get their hate on until they read through that impressive list, and I hope at least a few of them have a light bulb come on because of it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@ian: thank you for that. You said it much more nicely than I would have
Suzanne
@Baud:
And where would we be if some white people hadn’t woken the fuck up?
Look, I get that power cedes nothing without a demand, but it’s ludicrous to think that we — each of us — don’t have a ethical obligation to consider the needs of others. Especially young people, who by definition require investment of resources in their formation. The olds have not left them in good stead.
Martin
@zhena gogolia: I did, and I responded to it. Very few people my age and older are able to see the economic and environmental challenges the way younger generations do because we are largely insulated from them.
This is why representation matters. All kinds of representation – women, people of color, LGBTQ people, people with disabilities, and young people. People who didn’t go to Ivy’s. People who have served, and didn’t serve, etc. Representation matters.
‘not mature enough’ is the same kind of discrimination as ‘showing your age’. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have older presidents, but we almost *always* have older presidents. There’s only been 9 presidents under 50. The youngest ever president was TR, and he’s on Mount Rushmore. Considered one the best presidents we ever had. And yeah, maybe I do fanboi a bit for a guy who could get shot in the chest and then stand up and give a one hour speech. That’s fucking baller. But he was also a bit of a radical – ended the spoils system, established the national parks, went after corporate monopolies. Managed to piss off all the political parties in the process. We could do a lot worse than another 42 year old. Fuck, we just did a LOT worse with that guy.
There are plenty of extremely mature 35 year olds out there. Unfortunately there are some almost unfathomably immature 75 year olds out there.
schrodingers_cat
BTW only 44% of young white people voted for Biden in 2020.
Check out the second graph at the link
(between the ages of 18 -29)
They are voting R just like their parents or wasting their vote on 3rd party candidates for the feels..
53% voted for Trump
zhena gogolia
@Martin: You did not understand my comment at all. I was trying to point out the absurdity of rejecting a presidential candidate based on their age.
My father was present at that Teddy Roosevelt speech, by the way.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: ‘Ron DeSantis is a swell guy’. I’m pretty sure he’s the only one to have that thought, so he’s had one.
Baud
@Suzanne:
We don’t disagree. That’s why I hope young people don’t check out. The impression I was getting from you and Martin is that they would.
Paul in KY
@Baud: They’d been working on her for 30 years. She had a tough road to travel, no matter what GQP nominee (within reason).
Suzanne
@Baud: As Martin points out, the olds can lead the way. And again, there’s plenty of evidence that the yoot are participating.
When the young people started getting all politically active in recent years, many of them started looking at Bernie, they liked that he was speaking in their direction, and then even a large swath of old liberals said, “No, not like that”. Considering that they are a key part of the Democratic coalition and we will not win anything without their participation and influence, I would think we would want to give them some big wins.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Paul in KY: I think she would’ve beaten Jeb or Marco or ??? because they would’ve run on the same Romney/Ryan economics. It wouldn’t have been a landslide, and it probably would have been an ugly first term, but I think she would have won.
But all counterfactuals is bunk.
Martin
@zhena gogolia:
I take your point here. I didn’t say that it was a great move on their part to rally behind him.
But Bernie at least says ‘you know, you can stop and reconsider how this economic system works’. And that’s something that does not happen in this country. In the 1950s we got so up in the Cold War that we determined that any thought that strayed from pure capitalism was taboo. Ask any university economist what their career trajectory would be if they even gave a straight summation of Marx if asked. Not an endorsement, just a summation. There was ZERO tolerance for deviating on that line from the moment the Soviet Union became enemy #1 until yeah, about Bernie. He pushed the envelope of what we could discuss outward a bit. Just a bit. Agreed, hasn’t had any measurable direct effect in the Senate. But all the same, he gave them permission to imagine a different way of doing this. He wasn’t the radical they wanted, but he gave them permission to dream about the radical they wanted.
Sometimes symbols and inspiration are all you can get. Colin Kapernick didn’t write any legislation either, but he changed things. Maybe just a bit. Still is, in fact.
Baud
@Suzanne: We want to win for all of our voters. Doesn’t mean it’s easy.
Paul in KY
@Sister Golden Bear: He’s serious about knowing he has to take him out (maybe scare him out of running against TFG), if he has any chance of getting the nom again.
TFG’s armour is that there’s just about nothing you can accuse him of that really matters to his rubes.
UncleEbeneezer
@schrodingers_cat: The gold standard of polls (Pew Research, Voter Validated) which actually confirms votes to compare with what they told pollster in exit polls, and then extrapolates based on that, says that in 2020:
Millenial/GenZ (1981-’02): 58-38 Dem
Millenial: 59-39 Dem
Gen X: 51-48 Dem
Boomers: 48-51 Rep
Silent 42-58 Rep
schrodingers_cat
The arguments against Biden running again after a successful two years are incoherent. We are supposed to give up the power of incumbency to satisfy the whims of demographic that thought Bernie was the savior.
Bernie not only put a knife in HRC’s back in 2016 but he also poisoned the well against the Democrats for the 18-29 demographic. Putin invested well in the two shouty NYers.
Suzanne
@Baud: I don’t know that they’ll check out from the political process, it seems more likely that their participation will increase as they age.
But I think what Martin is saying — and what I am saying — is that we have an ethical responsibility to leave them a world that works. That’s not on them, that’s on us. I am totally over old people telling young people “vote, talk to your friends, work hard, go to school!” and all of the other well-intended advice that we give if they’re going to do it and still it doesn’t amount to much because our systems are so broken. They don’t need advice, old people need advice. And barring that, they need social pressure. And barring that, significant taxation to ensure a transfer of resources.
It’s a fundamental principle that the party with the power and the resources has to be the one to make the changes. That’s not the kids.
schrodingers_cat
@UncleEbeneezer: I was looking specifically how white young people voted.
This breakdown you give is only for age not for race.
Martin
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I don’t disagree with any of this. But I will note, that electoral power, cultural power, and institutional power all move at different rates. Culture usually runs ahead of electoral which runs ahead of institutional. You can have all the electoral power you want, but in order to convert that to institutional power, you’re going to have to vote out some old incumbent democrats – even if you like them. Because those incumbents are holding onto that institutional power. Young people don’t get institutional power until they occupy the institution.
It doesn’t matter how reliably black voters show up for Democrats, it has to result in black elected officials, black cabinet members. Because you can’t realize that power until you hold that institution. Whole lotta black DAs putting the screws to Trump because white DAs think it’s too risky. It ain’t power until you hold the gavel.
Anyone who is opposing or soft-walking actual representation, I will fight you. Because at the end of the day, actual representation is the only thing that matters. And if you find me opposing or soft-walking it, please fight me and put me in my place. Quote me if you need. Make me eat my words. Representation 👏 is 👏 what 👏 matters.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Yeah, I disagree with that. The responsibility is universal IMHO. No one gets a moral pass on failing to meet it because some other person or group failed to meet it.
The responsibility is not enforceable except through political and social pressure, and that’s what I try to do.
Suzanne
@UncleEbeneezer: Also….the percentage of white people has been falling in every generation. So when we talk about the “white youth vote”, that’s a much smaller slice of pie than “white olds”.
Paul in KY
@Martin: They don’t really think that. They just follow the MIC wishes and advocate policies that will get the most expensive weapons sold. They actually don’t care whether or whom we might be in conflict with, just keep the contributions coming.
Martin
@ian: You’d be surprised. Sometimes you just gotta snap people out of their lane.
@zhena gogolia: If we find ourselves at a get together and I forget, I owe you a drink. I do love you and your contributions. I’m not in any way upset with you, and I didn’t mean to upset you. I get a little worked up when young people aren’t given opportunities. It was literally my whole career to be an advocate for them, and I do try to be a fierce advocate as you might have noticed.
Paul in KY
@J R in WV: It’s only verifiable by visiting an alternate universe where it occurred, but if Pres. Clinton had resigned and had Al as Pres when he ran, I think that would have been the little extra umph (Al running as the incumbent) that would have pushed him across the line.
Completely different scenarios here, but incumbency always helps.
Martin
@zhena gogolia: Oh, sorry. Yeah, I guess you kinda poked a bear there. My sincerest apologies.
Or maybe it was because 4 hours ago I rode my bike without a helmet to get a haircut and got brain damage!
Martin beams with pride at his ability to use a callback to deflect attention from the awkward situation he’s put himself in. But will they fall for it?
Paul in KY
@Martin: The hilarious thing about Pres T. Roosevelt’s presidency is that he was parked in the VP slot by the magnates to get him away from NY and trust-busting. Pres McKinley was young too and they expected him to serve 2 terms…
Betty Cracker
@Paul in KY: Okay, ya got me there! 😂
Paul in KY
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think she’d have beaten Cruz and the homoculus from Wisconsin and Santanorum and a few other weirdos. I think JEB! would have had a good shot at beating her.
brantl
@oldgold: I hope they do, and the democrats bring pins.
Martin
@Suzanne: Exactly this. I voted for some pretty shitty people and endorsed some pretty shitty ideas. Even just in my time on this blog I have regrets for things that I advocated. I shouldn’t get to say ‘Sorry I opposed affordable housing, my bad’ and that be the end of it, if efforts to create affordable housing failed because I was a part of it. You should try to right your social wrongs, just as you do your personal wrongs. And if you’re in a position to do that, with time, or money, or putting someones interest ahead of your own, or whatever, then we should do that. But it’s gotta be real, not just lip service on a blog. I’m guilty of that too. I too gotta do better.
BruceFromOhio
@Baud: Yes! And also how New Hampshire and Iowa were poor ‘first in the nation’ arbiters! Lets go there, yo
brantl
@Baud: Just pointing out that they knew it would matter.
brantl
@dww44: RayGuns was senile, for Christ’s sake! Bush would be a better example, but he was a young imbecile, and was a somewhat older imbecile, when he was done.
brantl
@Jeffro: you left out secretly signing a non-aggression pact while selling out our allies, for STumpy.
brantl
@Suzanne: Only if the “Democrat Party” ran a woman against her. //
Elizabelle
@ Betty Cracker: Glad you took on that horrendous column. For shame, Michelle Goldberg. What sloppy ass thinking.
Gonna catch up with this thread, and see if anything did not get mentioned in 391 previous comments.
Gvg
@Martin: Dear god, California is too expensive. Other places have social problems but they don’t have those cost numbers. Tell the kids to look around at other locations. They can find nice enough places not quite as perfect as California that have better costs and job trade offs, then go there and improve them to be better.
you have concentrated in one area.
Florida has much better costs but terrible politics right now. Didn’t used to. I have heard other people quote and the numbers are different all over. Yes, the older generation did do a lot to screw the younger, but it is not evenly bad and staying in what you describe sounds despair inducing. Look around and get out of a rut.
brantl
@Martin: He’s working hard at slowing down the boat, and the boat was hauling ass for the waterfall when he started, You’ve got to stop before you reverse course. For God’s sake.
Omnes Omnibus
Christ, what a train wreck.
dww44
@brantl: I think you might have missed the point of my comment.
NaijaGal
@WaterGirl: Hillary won the popular vote but lost the electoral college. The Democratic Party is never going to nominate or vote for a woman again because everyone over 30 is permanently stuck in 2016 and can’t imagine that the electorate has changed for the better in some ways with Gen Z?
I think that there’s a large portion of the US punditry that deliberately ignores the fact that the Democratic Party requires a coalition to win and acting on most of their hot takes would fracture that coalition and ensure a Republican win.