Looks like we’ll see parts of the Fulton County Grand Jury Report by Thursday!
This news broke while I was on air with @AlexWitt this morning. Here’s my gut reaction to this important legal development. More to follow in today’s #JusticeMatters video, dropping later today. https://t.co/g0qVEfPH8V
— Glenn Kirschner (@glennkirschner2) February 13, 2023
The order appears to be in English, and understandable by non-lawyers. After reading the document, it seems to me that this was a wise and fair decision.
The public gets to see some of it, but not the stuff that names names or could seriously complicate the case of the district attorney.
Looking forward to hearing from Balloon Juice attorneys who just might be able to make better-informed judgments than mine!
SUPERIOR COURT OF FULTON COUNTY STATE OF GEORGIA: ORDER RE: SPECIAL PURPOSE GRAND JURY’S FINAL REPORT
Key excerpts from that document. (bolding is mine)
Having reviewed the final report, the undersigned concludes that the special ‘purpose grandjury did not exceed the scope ofits prescribed mission. Indeed, it provided the District Attorney with exactly what she requested: a roster of who should (or should not) be indicted, and for what, in relation to the conduct (and aftermath)ofthe 2020 ‘general election in Georgia. Thus, facially, the final report should be published in toto pursuant to 0.C.G.A. § 15-12-80. But, as with many things in the law, it is not that simple.
This special purpose grand jury investigation was, appropriately, largely controlled by the District Attorney. She and her team decided who would be subpoenaed, when they would appear, what questions would be asked, and what aspects of the general election would be explored.
‘The grand jurors were, of course, able to question the witnesses as well but the process was essentially an investigative tool designed to enable the District Attorney to gather ‘more information about what actually happened inthe days following the general election in Fulton County (and elsewhere) so that she could make a more informed decision on whether Georgia law was violated and whether anyone should be charged for doing so. It was – again, entirely appropriately ~ a one-sided exploration.
There were no lawyers advocating for any targetsofthe investigation. Potential future defendants were not able to present evidence outside the scope of what the District Attorney asked them. They could not call their own witnesses who might rebut what other State’s witnesses had said and they had no ability to present mitigating evidence.
Put differently, there was very limited due process in this process for those who might now be named as indictment worthy in the final report. That does not mean that the District Attorney’s investigative process was flawed or improper or in any way unconstitutional. By all appearances, the special purpose grand jury did its work by the book.
The problem here, in discussing public disclosure, is that that book’s rules do not allow for the objects of the District Attorney’s attention to be heard in the manner we require in a court oflaw.
The consequence of these due process deficiencies is not that the special purpose grand jury’s final report is forever suppressed or that its recommendations for or against indictment are in any way flawed or suspect. Rather, the consequence is that those recommendations are for the District Attorney’s eyes only — for now.
Fundamental fairness requires this, as a report that may recommend that criminal charges be sought against specific individuals but which was proof, may be remembered long after … denials or objections from its targets are forgotten. And the reports readers may understandably but incorrectly assume that at least the rudiments of due process — notice and an opportunity to be heard — were offered the accused.
There are, however, three parts of the final report that are ripe for publication. ‘They do not implicate the concerns raised in Thompson and Kelley, and, while publication may not be convenient for the pacing of the District Attorney’s investigation, the compelling public interest in these proceedings and the unquestionable value and importance of transparency require their release.
These three portions include the introduction and conclusion to the final report, as well as Section VIII, in which the special purpose grand jury discusses its concern that some witnesses may have lied under oath during their testimony to the grand jury. Because the grand jury does not identify those witnesses, that conclusionmaybe publicly disclosed at this time.
Therefore, consistent with the special purpose grandjury’s recommendation made pursuant to 0.C.G.A. § 15-12-80 that its final report be published, those three portions of the report will be placed in the docket for this matter (making those excerpts —- but only those excerpts — a “court record”) on 16 February 2023.
The several-day delay will allow the District Attorney’s team to meet with the undersigned, if necessary, to discuss logistics of publication and to determine if any portion of those three parts of the final report should be redacted for other reasons (notice of which will be provided in the 16 February 2023 docket entry).
Updated to add the tweet above.
Tic Tick Motherfcker.
Wake me up when something actually happens. A decision on prosecuting has been “imminent” for a couple of years now.
Anonymous At Work
Just a reminder. The False Electors scheme does not capture Karen Homemaker, who donated small amounts. It gets the state party leaders, top fundraisers, a few elected officials, etc. but the people that are very much integral to the state political machine for the next election cycle or so. Getting the false electors in each state would hamper election efforts by Republicans in those states.
That, and IAAL, “perjury” tends to follow you around. People can and should introduce you as “The Perjurer known now as Bob Smith” until you die.
@feebog: You’re not much for tock, are you?
New Deal democrat
Just for some basic background, investigative grand juries have a 1000 year history going all the way back to the Norman Conquest of England. As the name implies, unlike indicting grand juries, their purpose is to investigate.
Their most important tools are secrecy and the subpoena power. No witness knows what any other witness has said, and defense attorneys aren’t allowed in the room, although the 5th Amendment very much applies. This makes them excellent tools to investigate and break through conspiracies. Their subpoena power is wide ranging, and they are allowed, within some limits, to go on fishing expeditions. And while witnesses can move to quash subpoenas based on privilege (see Lindsay Graham), success of such motions are rare (see Lindsay Graham).
Typically their investigative reports are made public, so that the public can be educated and take action. For example, if Texas had this tool, an investigative grand jury could investigate the Uvalde police response and recommend reforms.
But, as the name implies, indictments have to be made by a separate grand jury impaneled for that purpose.
As someone who’s re-read The Phantom Tollbooth dozens of times, I’m a big fan of Tock, myself.
@feebog: Step by step, inch by inch.
This may not be totally unprecedented ground, we have election laws and enforcement for a reason. But none of this type of work goes quickly, it can’t, and it shouldn’t. It has to be thorough, it has to be as impartial as possible, it has to be complete. It’s like building a skyscraper. It takes time. It especially takes time when it is as big an issue as this is. All the ducks and wrong doing has to be investigated for all the possible nuance and hidden law breaking. All the facts have to be gathered and verified. A case like this may or may not be unprecedented but it is big, it is vital to the law and to public order. And it can not be carried out in a rush. It’s been over two years and we are still seeing the trials of people involved in Jan 6.
You want this to be thorough, complete. You want the juries to see everything in blinding detail so that there are no questions, doubts, you need convictions if the law is going to mean anything.
It takes time. Time to investigate properly. Time to build a case. Time to allow potential jury members to cool off and think about their duty.
It takes time.
@lowtechcyclist: I love that book. I give it to every kid I know, when they get to be a certain age.
@Ruckus: I think arresting a former head of state should be A+ work.
Or these Republicans will try it.
You were expecting maybe Phoenician?
Mr. Bemused Senior
@WaterGirl: a favorite at our house too.
@NotMax: The usual greek. As in, “it was all greek to me.”
Let the ketchup fly!
@Ruckus: Totally agree. I was listening to Ken White (Popehat) explain the law that will apply in the Alex Baldwin case, and it was so informative, and it really gives a sense of the nuances that prosecutors need to take into account. It’s especially true when it’s state law–which, not surprisingly, differs state to state–and you are going to need to explain that law to the jury. Much as I want these assholes to be held to account, I want every damn T crossed and every I dotted. Even for TFG, and my loathing for him knows no bounds.
@Alison Rose: I kind of like that they will be sharing the part about some witnesses lying under oath. Everyone who didn’t answer truthfully will be wondering if that’s in reference to them.
Any witness who DID answer truthfully might think, I hope they didn’t think I was lying!, but then probably won’t give it another thought because they know they weren’t.
“I’ll take ‘clichés Zorba never said’ for 500, Alex.”
@Spanky: This is what happens when you try to post before you finish your first cup of coffee.
The Republicans will try it whether or not it’s A+ work.
The Up and Up
“Ah, this is fine,” he cried triumphantly, holding up a small medallion on a chain. He dusted it off, and engraved on one side were the words “WHY NOT?” “That’s a good reason for almost anything – a bit used perhaps, but still quite serviceable.”
Having worked in a law-enforcement-adjacent legal job in the Federal government, I have drunk deeply of the Rule 6(e) kool-aid. I think the Federal approach of near-absolute secrecy is the way to go. So I think the judge in Jawjuh took a very defensible approach: throw the media a couple of small bones, and let Willis’ office continue to do its job.
@Anonymous At Work: The guy who runs the Defunctland YouTube channel (a brilliant collection of videos about the history of theme parks, old TV and related pop-culture ephemera) is called Kevin Perjurer. I have no idea whether that is his real legal name (he’s a bit cagey about his real-life identity; always shows a picture of Brad Pitt as a substitute for his face). But it’s pretty funny, especially given that he clearly endeavors to provide well-researched and truthful information about his subject matter.
Tic tac, motherfucker. Your piehole stinks.
@NotMax: It is from Julius Caesar by Shakespeare. Casca says it after Seneca’s speech.
@The Up and Up: Such a great book.
In legal matters involving Trump, starting with the Mueller debacle, I have advocated for moving forward as quickly as possible. But, in this Georgia case, I would not mind the prosecutor pumping the brakes. I would much prefer the documents case proceed this Georgia case. If filed in DC, I think it is highly likely the documents case results in a conviction. This Georgia case is not as strong. The last thing needed is for the first criminal proceeding against Trump to end in an acquittal.
@Ruckus: took three years to put up the chrystler building. less than two for the empire state building.
@Matt McIrvin: Laugh your troubles away at Riverview!
Two Ton Baker
@WaterGirl: I assume that means it’s already (or soon will be) banned in Florida.
Someone needs to be disbarred.
@Baud: All toids, tic tacs have been a lifesaver, for certs.
@Alison Rose: lol, I was going to say, let the wild media rumpus begin!
Mind immediately went to the “any way you slice it, it was a fusterfcluck” that was Freedomland.
So is this a big deal? IANAL but it doesn’t seem like much.
In other non-DOJ investigations of Trump’s crimes, Teri Kanefield did a good write up of the Pomerantz/Bragg/ManhattanDA story. There more that comes out about Pomerantz’ resignation and leaking to the press, the less I believe his initial story and the more it appears that Pomerantz is an arrogant guy who really wanted to be the first to indict Trump, and resented that much of the rest of his office didn’t want to go along with a case that was only 70% likely to get a conviction. His resignation downplayed the lack of support in his office (his own line prosecutors refused to support him), he purposefully kept Bragg out of the loop by inviting EVERYONE EXCEPT HIM to a key planning meeting, then complained that Bragg wasn’t us to speed on the case. Additionally, Pomerantz wanted to push a novel legal theory and tried to completely change the direction of the case, just a month before he resigned. Using a novel legal theory is a very bad idea because it would give a jury Reasonable Doubt by implying that the Prosecution was treating Trump differently than anyone else due to political bias. When his own team/office didn’t want to go along with this, Pomerantz THREATENED HIS BOSS that he would not only resign, but would leak details of the investigation to the press if Bragg didn’t indict now. Several attorneys I follow have been absolutely flabbergasted by this unprofessional and possibly unethical behavior by Pomerantz. As they put it: YOU JUST DON’T DO THAT (threaten your boss, leak to the press then write a book bashing your bass and colleagues). You can listen to Harry Litman and Andrew Weissman discuss all of this in great detail here. One great point that Weissman and Kanefield both make is that without someone within Trump Org willing to testify against Trump, it’s almost impossible to get a conviction on Tax Fraud. It’s even more difficult when your only/main witness (Michael Cohen) has been convicted of Lying To Congress and is selling a book titled “Revenge.” That’s not the makings of the sort of slam-dunk case that Prosecutors usually require to bring charges, it’s a Hail Mary that would be entirely reasonable for Bragg and other attorneys to be hesitant of bringing to trial.
Meanwhile, Alvin Bragg has said all along that the investigation is open and still proceeding and is apparently trying to pressure Weisselberg to flip with the threat of more charges/prison time (a very common tactic). Michael Cohen has met with the GJ again and while he wouldn’t give up any secrets, says that Bragg’s team is very impressive and hinted that we should all get our popcorn ready (insinuating that charges are likely coming soon). Anyways, read Kanefield’s piece and watch the Litman/Weissman interview. They are both very good.
@Dangerman: Boo! You are making NotMax jealous!
Thanks for the summary.
I believe the Swinish Oaf is guilty of all kinds of things, and I’m not too particular whether he gets popped in New York or Georgia or anywhere in between. But….I do get why they’re being very circumspect in what’s said and what’s released. I’m old enough to remember the Richard Jewell hysteria.
@UncleEbeneezer: Thank you for that, I appreciate it.
Can’t help it. Each and every time I see IANAL the inner seventh grader pipes up with “Apple makes a proctoscope?”
Via reddit, cool video of meteor in France.
@NotMax: My first thought was that it was an adult-bookstore parody of I, Robot.
@Ruckus: As Barb McQuade (former US Attorney) said on yesterday’s Jack podcast: More important than anything else, Prosecutors need to know and understand WHAT HAPPENED before bringing charges. That can be much harder than it looks from the outside. I think lay-people really underestimate/downplay this when they assume Trump should have been indicted two years ago. It’s quite possible that Prosecutors only recently really started to put all the pieces together because so much evidence, info and testimony wasn’t accessible immediately or required court fights and more investigation. Witnesses have refused to testify or respond to subpoenas, used privilege claims as shields, been intimidated by Trump, etc. It takes a long time to finally present the complete jigsaw puzzle image when a substantial number of the pieces only become available slowly, over time.
@NotMax: And when I read your comment, I immediately thought of Defunctland’s video on the theme park called Freedomland U.S.A. (an extremely short-lived park in the early 1960s, shaped like the contiguous United States and themed to American history and culture, in the Bronx where Co-Op City is now).
It is good to see that Trump, Giuliani, Graham, etc. are allowed the same presumption of innocence as Capone, Gambino, and Luciano.
For some of the nonzero number of impatient BJers who wonder about the slow motion legal consequences for the rich…this is the point, n’est ce pas? Justice sure comes down swift for shoplifters and passing a counterfeit $20. For white collar financial crimes, we basically got Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff and Martha Stewart(!). Maybe SBF for this decade.
@raven: Memories. Thanks, now I’ll be reminiscing about Riverview the rest of the day.
@WaterGirl: Mmmm gyros.
@Matt McIrvin: Maybe Brad Pitt really runs the Defunctland YouTube channel. 🧐
I’m kind of confused about what they’ll actually be releasing. Is it just basically “Our investigation has determined that there is/is not sufficient evidence to bring charges,” plus the thing about people lying under oath?
@oldgold: I have been hearing that the documents case would likely be tried in FL, which would be a lot tougher.
@Sure Lurkalot: It doesn’t help that the rich have the means to commit much more complicated crimes.
@NotMax: Hahaha…that took me a minute!
Now I will also see that every time. Seventh grade NotMax is spreading!
@eclare: If the court had ruled that the whole thing had to be released – as the grand jury had voted on and as the news media who brought a case, desired – then that would have been a big problem for Fani Willis, who wanted more time (apparently) to get an indictment BEFORE it would be released, then…
THAT would have been a big deal, because it would have been a clusterfuck. This is significant in that Fani is going to have the time she needs to get her case in order before any names are named.
@NotMax: What did they named it? iColon?
@WaterGirl: That was the early information, but recently I have been reading that it can and will be filed in DC.
@mrmoshpotato: My mom was greek!
We would always go to Greektown in Chicago to get all the interesting greek stuff for easter. The bread with the died easter eggs, greek olives, cheese, black licorice pipes,
@Sure Lurkalot: Don’t lump Martha with Ken Lay and Bernie. She did not defraud millions, she was convicted of lying to the FBI. She served her time without complaint.
And yes, she is fabulous.
That’s a wonderful thing to be doing for them!
My cousin had a grandchild a little over a year ago, and I’m thinking of what books to send. I’m thinking a few Julia Donaldson books would be good, especially The Gruffalo, of course.
I’m on Team Fuckifino, but I’m almost tempted to organize a DJT indictment(s) pool, perhaps with proceeds from wagers going to a legal aid society that helps poor people avoid getting crushed by the system for minor charges? Indictment by 1/20/2024 — yay or nay? Place yer bets! ;-)
@TooManyJens: I think it will be a lot more interesting than that. The intro surely explains the scope of what they were looking at, and I assume the conclusion will include details like “we recommend indictments of x people” and “we thought a bunch of the witnesses were lying on the stand”.
I think what they release will be very interesting. It’s just that it won’t name names for who should be indicted and who they thought was lying under oath.
@WaterGirl: Bread with wut? Baked into it? I’d love to go to the annual Greek festival here, but it’s huge. Busses, parking lots miles away are involved.
Or do you mean you got bread and stuff? Maybe I misinterpreted.
@oldgold: Huh. I heard it on one of the legal shows just this week. It’s all just speculation from people who were FORMERLY on the inside of all the legal stuff, and now they are on the outside, speculation.
Doesn’t mean I don’t listen to it, though! :-)
@Betty Cracker: I would participate in that!
@The Up and Up:
I’ve certainly used that reason more than my share of times, but as the gateman said, it’s still quite serviceable. :-)
@eclare: Picture a round ring of baked bread, with a bunch of differently colored hard-boiled eggs baked into the bread.
Picture 8 or 10 or 12 colored hard-boiled eggs sitting maybe 1/3 of the way into the baked bread, and then the top 2/3 of each color hard-boiled egg showing above the bread. So the eggs were nestled in the baked bread.
@WaterGirl: Huh. Thanks! Never heard of it.
I just googled, very pretty.
That’s a bummer! Around here, there’s a Greek Orthodox church on the south side of Annapolis that has a Greek festival every June. My wife and I always go, the food is delicious!
The overflow parking lot is maybe a quarter-mile away, and there’s a shuttle bus constantly going back and forth. But it’s really close enough to walk.
@WaterGirl: Boiled eggs with the shells in bread?
Did you eat/like it?
@lowtechcyclist: Maybe with a Lyft it would be more doable here, I don’t need to be dropped at the front door, within walking distance is fine. Hmmm…the baklava is supposed to be wonderful!
@Sure Lurkalot: From the recipes on Google, yes. Hard boiled eggs in shells in the bread. Dyed for Easter.
It’s pretty! The things I learn here!
@Betty Cracker: Can I get the date of 4/1? If DJT get’s indicted on AFD, that would lead to so many “get the phuck outta here’s”. It’d be great.
ETA: Put me down for a definite Aye in 2023.
ETA: Shit. 4/1/2023 is a Saturday.
often wrong, but never in doubt.
Most of us, including a lot of the lawyers do not KNOW the law. We have to read it and understand what it says to know the law. A lot of decades ago I helped my next door neighbor study for the bar exam. The nuance, the structure, the actual words of the law are often words that most of us do not fully understand enough without work to see exactly what the law means. It’s why a lawyer has to go to a special school and take a rather exhaustive test to become a lawyer.
The law is often not plain, common english, it is quite often very specific in the use of very specific words and it has to be, but that is one of the things that often makes it less understandable to most of us.
Don’t know where you’ve been hearing that, but it’s almost certainly wrong. Venue is unquestionably proper in DC.
Sister Golden Bear
CW: Hate crime.
Well, the inevitable consequence of mainstreaming all the anti-trans rhetoric that we’d been dreading has happened. on Sunday Brianna Ghey, a 16-year-old trans girl, who’d been repeatedly bullied for being trans, was stabbed to death in broad daylight in a “targeted attack” by two teens (a boy and a girl).
Rather than stopping to reflect on how they contributed to the atmosphere where this could happen, the UK press, which played a key role in mainstreaming TERF’s (and some cis gay men’s) moral panic into a government-supported hysteria,* the UK press is trying to explain how “well actually” transphobia wasn’t involved — and even erasing the fact that she was trans. Some newspapers simply failed to mention it, others went digging for her deadname and referred to her by that name.
Meanwhile fascists are rejoicing online about her death, and TERFs are ghoulishly reveling in the fact that Brianna will be officially misgendered in death — sayth one “He is still male a dress and a bit of lipstick does not make you a woman end of. His birth certificate should say male.” — because her death certificate cannot list her gender as female.**
I hope you’re happy Wizard Lady.
Rest in Power, Brianna. #SayHerName
*The UK’s prime minister recently blocked a law by the Scottish Parliament, which won by a wide vote, that would’ve allowed Scottish trans people to change their legal gender much more easily.
**This isn’t uncommon in the States either, because without a court-ordered name/gender change — which many trans people can’t afford — they can’t update identity documents, such as a driver’s license or other government-issued I.D., meaning trans people are likely to be misgendered and have the wrong name on their death certificates
Yes but we have building codes that are tougher now because we need them to be tougher. I owned a building in LA that was built about 100 yrs ago. It was build a lot different than buildings of today and a lot of the work would not met current building codes because we understand engineering better, materials better, earthquake protections better. Those buildings were well designed for the time but we now know more and buildings are built differently. And often erecting the building and and finishing the building for occupation are two different jobs.
@Sister Golden Bear: Oh how sad and horrific. I read that about Scotland doing the right thing and London shutting it down. Awful.
Unlike you, IANAL, but lawyers I know all say the same. This is a DC case if it’s anything. Basically, one told me, it comes down to where did the crime happen? It happened in DC. Just because the docs were found in FL does not make it a FL crime.
@Ruckus: Also a lot of the protections that Trump (and wealthy people) are able to use to delay Justice, file appeals etc., are actually good things, that are there for good reasons, and if we or someone we loved was facing criminal charges we’d be VERY glad for the presumption of innocence and the high bar of reasonable doubt for conviction, in our justice system.
@eclare: what did you google? i would love to see a photo of them now.
edit: i see you included a link.
@Sure Lurkalot: They were whole eggs, so you pulled them out and ate them like a hard-boiled egg.
@eclare: Yes! How could i have forgotten that we would also bring home baklava!
@WaterGirl: I put a link in #72, but I googled hard boiled eggs in bread, and voila! Photos!
@Burnspbesq: They are saying FL because that’s where the original documents were found.
DC makes sense to me, because that’s where he fucking stole them from.
Maybe half of the legal talking heads don’t know what they are talking about.
If you’re inside, you know but you can’t talk about it. If you’re talking, you’re speculating. But I still love the podcast Jack.
I just read on Reuters that the NATO chief says the anticipated big Russian offensive has started. I hope that isn’t so.
@Cameron: I hope they drown in mud.
@Betty Cracker: I like the idea of a pool! That’s the only kind of getting that I really get into and where your level of knowledge might actually matter!
@WaterGirl: Another thing is that releasing that kind of info can tarnish someone’s reputation undeservedly–basically, unless they are indicted, such a report accuses them of crimes in a way that makes it difficult to defend themselves.
@Sister Golden Bear: Saw this this morning and have been totally bummed out ever since. What a lovely, radiant girl. I am speechless. So tragic and sadly predictable.
@Cameron: I guess that explains this:
@Sister Golden Bear:
@narya: Absolutely. They cover that in the order from the court
They also set the release date for Thursday so there is time to redact anything in the 3 parts they do plan to release, if Fani makes the case for doing that.
J R in WV
The British government is despicable, as is their media… all fascist, all the time! Alan Touring, brilliant scientist, invented modern computing, murdered by society after he helped win WW II. Because he was gay…
@Betty Cracker: I’ll jump into your pool if you organize it. Not giving away my guess until then though!
@Sister Golden Bear: ”Well actually,” in addition to all the other reasons we know the press disclaimers might be arrant bullshit there’s the fact that this just happened Saturday, so at this early stage they can’t be anything else but a try at forcing a preferred narrative. Some people just insist on telling others who they are.
Yup, that’s the one. Misbegotten from the get-go.
That’s the deluxe model. The cheaper ones are iSemi-colons.
I’d sort of lost track of Graham’s effort to obstruct. But glad to see that after SCOTUS did rule, ol’ Linds did what was required. What he said there is of course another question.
Would he be one of the witnesses that the G.J. worries was a liar? Hopefully not. I mean, isn’t he still an officer of the court via his JAG ‘role’ (in quotes because he’s resting on some ancient laurels there).
ATLANTA (AP) Nov. 22, 2022 — U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham testified Tuesday before a special grand jury that’s investigating whether President Donald Trump and others illegally meddled in the 2020 election in Georgia.
The South Carolina Republican’s appearance before the panel came after a drawn-out legal fight that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court as Graham tried to avoid testifying. He had argued that his position as a senator shielded him from questioning. The courts rejected his assertion but did rule that prosecutors and grand jurors could not ask him about protected legislative activity.
Graham’s office said in a statement that he spent just over two hours with the special grand jury and “answered all questions.”
“The senator feels he was treated with respect, professionalism and courtesy,” the statement said.
LOL. As if Apple makes “cheaper” models.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
And this is why I think we need court reform. These #%[email protected]! wealthy scum should not be able to delay indefinitely until the statutue of limitations is up. Those tools need to be limited across the board. There should be a firm upper limit on how many continuances and other delaying tactics these people can use. I’d also add that if justice is going to be so slow, there shouldn’t be statute of limitations at all.
Sister Golden Bear
A UK trans advocate tells it like it is:
*Section 28 or Clause 28 was a legislative designation for a series of laws across Britain that prohibited the “promotion of homosexuality” by local authorities. Introduced by Margaret Thatcher’s Conservative government, it was in effect from 1988 to 2000 in Scotland and from 1988 to 2003 in England and Wales. It caused many organisations such as lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender student support groups to close, limit their activities or self-censor.
I thought this was the grand jury GA case about TFG tampering in the election (it was a perfect call!). Not the stolen classified documents at MAL.
@artem1s: Yes, GA was a perfect call, MAL was a perfect steal.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
There has to be limits, and I believe the ability to slow walk justice to the point you prevent it from ever coming is the situation now. It is an especially big problem when there is a wealth imbalance between the parties. Wealthy people will use the delays in the system to drag it out until they bankrupt anyone who fights their bad behavior. Why do you think the Trumps of the world are so brazen? They’ve been able to get away with anything for decades. The richer they get the more they are able to avoid consequences.
@Sister Golden Bear: Horrible news. How did Brianna hurt these people, the press, the government? The only damage was to their sense of the “natural” order of the world. Does their imagination show their world falling apart? No doubt. Do they feel afraid of climate change? Probably not. Genuine threats cannot be considered because dealing with them will require change.
@artem1s: You are correct. The post up top was solely about GA.
But the comments also drifted to a discussion of the documents case.
Sorry if we confused you!
@Sister Golden Bear: What a horrible crime. My heart aches for her family.
The problem with that is that only the rich can afford to do delay tactics. Someone with limited means – they can’t even post bail. In fact, this is why so many are trying to change the system so that paying money for bail isn’t a thing.
When the court system asks you for fees that’s going to work against you if you do not have means or know lawyers who know all the tricks to game the system for delay.
Lots of disturbing stuff in the news today regarding Russia. As noted previously, Bakhmut is being bombarded as a signal of a major offensive against Ukraine and the US embassy is telling Americans to get the hell out of Russia (surprised they didn’t issue that warning a year ago). Also, Moldovan President Maia Sandu says Russian agents are trying to overthrow her government to stop it from joining NATO and use the country as a base for further attacks on Ukraine. Putin deserves an award for NATO Recruiter of the Century.
Yeah, that’s some epic shit there – they pulled that before.
I think pretty much everyone is going to be hitting the NATO button at this point.
@UncleEbeneezer: One can be very appreciative of that concept of due process, but the level of due process one is allowed is determined by how much wealth one can throw at it.
For there to truly be equal justice under the law, the financial restraints would have to be removed.
(…and from that you can correctly surmise I’m not a lawyer.)
The UK is not doing well. Beginning to turn on and eat the weakest / most identifiable targets. See also their going after refugees. Statement holds true for both official government policy and bottom-up individual / mob action. (Bottom seems to holding firm with the strikers so far.)
@AlaskaReader: Exactly. The injustice is that poor people usually can’t get it, not that rich people can.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@UncleEbeneezer: Not completely. Delaying and delaying and delaying means that witnesses die, that families are in limbo, etc. These cases can stretch out for a decade or more. That isn’t just true for criminal cases, but for civil ones too. This burns up resources. It clogs the system. There has to be limits.
@Betty Cracker: If someone is stupid enough to still be there that is their problem.
@Betty Cracker: Reading that made my stomach flip over. I feel literally sick with dread about all of what you wrote.
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
See: Bleak House, Jarndyce v Jarndyce.
@WaterGirl: It is depressing. Also, the death toll in Turkey and Syria — it’s just horrific.
Steve in the ATL
my favorite childhood book as well!
I just added an interesting tweet up top. I think it’s interesting, at least!
@Betty Cracker: I haven’t felt this sick with dread since the beginning of the war attacking Ukraine on 2/24 of last year, when I was afraid to look at the Ukraine news every morning because I was afraid something had happened to President Zelenskyy overnight.
Depressing that Joe wants to use the same failed tactics regarding the fentanyl issue. Good thread from Alec Karakatsanis.
We’ve incarcerated countless drug users while we coddle tax cheats and Ponzi schemers.
@Betty Cracker: I can’t even guess what multiple of 20,000 that Turkey/Syria toll will amount to.
Putting in a plug for the International Rescue Committee, and Doctors Without Borders. But especially the IRC.
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: I never said there shouldn’t be limits.
My point is that over the past few years I’ve heard several people whine about Trump’s efforts to slow things down only to have former Prosecutors and Defenders (people like Joyce White Vance, Barb McQuade, Andrew McCabe, Teri Kanefield etc.) point out that: actually there’s a good reason our system allows this…things that I hadn’t considered before. I’m open to reforms, but I have no idea where you draw the line and I think it’s a tricky question with a system that prioritizes the rights of the accused.
I’ve been on a jury in a criminal trial. We had the law explained to us and that was very necessary because we all needed to understand exactly what the person was being tried for and which law explicitly applied and how.
I was also called for another major felony trial in the same court but the guy copped before we were seated. And I’ve done jury duty in a different county and was on call for that trial and that guy also copped. My point is that it is a completely different concept of the law than most of us see/think of. The rules/regulations of how everything is done are very distinct and complicated.
@cain: Fastest track for Moldova would be to ask Romania to annex it. Though that would be trading national sovereignty for a nuclear umbrella, and I guess most people wouldn’t be comfortable with that.
Ben Meisalas on the Fulton County Ruling.
Been on errands for a while.
Yes absolutely. But. But things like cutting back the funding on the IRS means that fewer big (and sometimes rotten) cheeses get audited because very often big cheeses have people who complicate their filings and they require several well trained agents to go through the filings and find the BS. SFB would be one of those. The IRS is not the only federal agency that has a budget that has to be approved and paid for regularly, in a country that has far more cases to investigate now than it did a decade or two ago. So less gets done, fewer get caught, and the cycle continues.
@Ruckus: That is exactly why I’ve really been enjoying Popehat’s podcasts, both the current one (Serious Trouble) and the two previous (All the President’s Lawyers, and All the Presidents’ Lawyers): they take the time to explain the law and how it does/not apply in a particular case. (I also got to be quietly excited whenever they talked about the Federal Tort Claims Act, because I completed more than one FTCA application over the years and already knew about it.)
@Sure Lurkalot: Seems like a lot of angst over very little. Here’s what I could find about Biden’s plans for fentanyl.
The rest of it seems to be about importation.
@WaterGirl: Awww! That little foot! :)
@Sister Golden Bear: This whole case is horrific.
And the insult of the gobshite tory P.M. down in London overriding the will of the Scottish people! Just another kick in the teeth.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@NotMax: I know that is satire, but I feel like we are on our way there!
@WaterGirl: Nothing cooler than new grandparents.
@eclare: This is also worth a listen. Karen Friedman Agnifilo (who worked under Cy Vance) also gives her thoughts on Pomerantz’ behavior (spoiler: she thinks it’s incredibly unprofessional)
The guy is a rare unifying figure:
And there’s more.
@WaterGirl: Does it still exist? I worry that creeping gentrification will encroach on the borders and do away with it.
BTW my mother used to go to the annual greek church bake sale when I was a kid and bring back these amazing pastries I’ve never seen anywhere else. They were about 4″ long, loosely rolled pastry that must have been deep fried and then doused in sugar syrup like baklava is. Any idea what they’re called?
@Betty Cracker: Adorable. I think she takes after me, already kicking the covers off!
edit: when I was little, my dad paid me a nickel a night to sleep under a top sheet. What’s that? Daddy’s girl? Absolutely.
@Shana: I am not familiar with those pastries. As I typed my earlier comment about Greektown, I did wonder if it’s still there. Hopefully it is. I have been away from Chicago for a long time, so I just don’t know.
Longtime patron of the Greek Festival in Wilmington DE …
@Anyway: Not quite, but the size is right. It was like a sheet of pastry, not as thin and layered as phylo, loosely rolled up, fried and soaked in syrup
Found it! Diples! I don’t remember them having nuts but that’s the item. I tried to figure out what they were a few years ago and couldn’t find it.
Thanks NotMax and PBK.
Description sounds as if they might be diples.
There’s a legal concept called tolling – no, not like paying tolls, but putting a matter in abeyance so something can be resolved before a deadline. Utility companies use it all the time when citizens are fighting new transmission projects.
Let’s say the regional transmission operator has “directed” your utility to build a new line, and the direction says it “must” be completed within two years. But residents near the proposed path of the line band together to fight it, including filing with the state utility commission for standing to participate. Faced with organized opposition, the utility asks the commission to “toll” the proceedings – to delay the countdown to the two-year deadline for some period of time (maybe six months, maybe a year) while the issues raised by the citizens’ groups are addressed.
I’ve often wondered why a similar concept couldn’t be used for presidential misdeeds (committed before or during time in office). For instance, E. Jean Carroll’s rape accusation would have had a four-year toll added to the statutory deadline.
Sometimes you need to see a grown man say this shit to the world:
@Anyway: You mean Newark (pronounced like “blue shark“), DE. That’s where the university with all the frats/sororities is (I went there!)
@prostratedragon: To be fair, I do this when I have to sleep on the couch, but I use a tee shirt or towel, not a classified folder.
Ukrainian milbloggers saying there are 9 separate attacks. If the Russians are having success it’s not being reported.
In other news, mobliks manning the third defense lines are being brought forward and used as assault troops. They’ve got an AK-47 of some vintage and maybe some hand grenades and that is it. If any of them survive to the end of the month it’ll be due to sheer luck.
@WV Blondie: It’s an open question whether tolling applies. I don’t think it would matter to Carrol’s rape accusation because the statute of limitations had long passed, even with tolling.
@Cameron: I think Russia took over Moldova – Romania might be thinking of annexing it anyways. Nobody wants creeping russians showing up at their border.
@cain: Russia took over a small slice of Moldova, called Transnistria, right next to the Ukraine border.
Speaking of the awful UK government, I started reading a book by Tim Pat Coogan,
The Famine Plot. England’s Role in Ireland’s Greatest Tragedy.
I got to the Evictions chapter and I don’t know if I can finish it. Horrible, just horrible what Victoria’s government did to the Irish, who were definitely viewed as second-class.
@UncleEbeneezer: Yeah, that’d be the part. Like there’s no sock or tee shirt he can find.
@cain: Why, they’re probably just imposters posing as his kids!
@cain: The largely Romanian-speaking territory of Moldavia, then known as Bessarabia, was annexed to Romania after the Bolshevik Revolution and the end of WW1. The Soviet Union got it back as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (August 1939) and it became the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic until the dissolution of the USSR, when it became Moldova. The eastern breakaway region of Transnistria is home to the largest concentration of Russian speakers in the republic, who look to Mother Russia and
Vova TeenyWeeniePutin to rescue them from the horrors of NATO, the Roman alphabet and the easternmost Romance language…
(According to Wikipedia not even the Russians have recognized Transnistria as an actual nation. Surprisingly they haven’t begged Vova to annex them yet…)
(I learned a bit about the area after the daughter of a friend joined the Peace Corps, ended up in Moldova and returned a few years later with a Moldovan husband.)
@Uncle Cosmo: Moldova is also the poorest country in Europe
@NotMax: depends on which way the wind is blowing 😜
” Justice sure comes down swift for shoplifters and passing a counterfeit $20. For white collar financial crimes, we basically got Ken Lay, Bernie Madoff and Martha Stewart(!). Maybe SBF for this decade.”
Not Ken Lay, he had the impudence to die before he could be imprisoned.
I still get PO’d about how Countryside/BofA committed felony fraud hundreds of thousands of times (robosigning) and got a slap in the wrist and a fine which was partially deductible for taxes. BUT, let a poor person kite a bad check and be thrown under the jail.