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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Some Ukraine Fronts are Not on the Battlefield

Some Ukraine Fronts are Not on the Battlefield

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Ukrainian service members inspect a destroyed Russian tank near Kivsharivka village in the Kharkiv region in December. (Sergey Bobok / AFP via Getty Images)

Ukraine is fighting this war on many fronts, and a lot of them are not not the battlefield.

Ukraine has a high-tech hotline to make it easier for Russian soldiers who want to surrender.  (Los Angeles Times)

KYIV, Ukraine — Bound for the battlefield, sounding harried and anxious, the Russian soldier placed a hasty phone call — to a Ukrainian military hotline.

“They say you can help me surrender voluntarily, is that right?” asked the serviceman, explaining that he was soon to be deployed near the southern Ukrainian city of Kherson.

“When Ukrainian soldiers come, do I just kneel down, or what? Do you promise not to film me while this is happening?”

In fluent Russian, the hotline operator calmly assured him he’d be given detailed instructions on how to safely lay down his weapon and turn himself in.

“When you get to the front lines, just call us right away,” she said.

At a crucial juncture in an extraordinarily bloody war, Ukraine’s military is focused on one task: removing Russian soldiers from the battlefield. But faced with a foe whose ranks are known to be riddled with unwilling fighters, Ukrainian military strategists realized there might be more than one means to that end.

With that, the “I Want to Live” outreach was born, aimed at providing invading forces with step-by-step information on how to abandon the ranks. Initially run by Ukrainian police, the program has had a ramped-up, military-operated version in place since mid-September.

On Russian-language social media, Ukrainians have spread the word about the program’s website, intended as a portal for the surrender-curious or their loved ones. It has attracted more than 13.3 million visits — 7.6 million of those from Russian territory, organizers said.

Russian soldiers also provide personal data through a chatbot on the encrypted messaging app Telegram — information Ukrainian authorities use to winnow down those who are serious about turning themselves in. The chatbot, together with the hotline, has drawn nearly 10,000 contacts, according to organizers.

Citing security reasons, Ukrainian officials declined to disclose how many surrenders have been brokered via the program. But hotline operators field calls around the clock from Russians who are soon to be mobilized, are in the midst of being deployed or are already on the battlefield. Callers might be jittery or stoic, defensive or remorseful, coolly businesslike or floridly emotional — sometimes all of those in a single conversation.

Read the whole thing if you can.  h/t Almost Retired for the article!

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

212Comments

  2. 2.

    jonas

    I’m no military armor expert or anything, but that tank looks like some Soviet-era T-62 or T-72 or something. That’s a museum piece, not a modern war-fighting vehicle.

  3. 3.

    Joe Falco

    One caller, sounding angry and despairing, used an expletive to describe the prospect of sudden death in battle.

    “A single mortar shell, and it’s done,” he said. “Who needs this war?”

    Answer: No one needs this war except to feed the sick fantasies of a few depraved individuals who I hope die off sooner rather than later.

  4. 4.

    Kelly

    Early in the war Ukrainians were giving Russian POWs a nice meal, cup of tea and a phone to call home. Probably hoping the word of comfort and safety would get around.

  5. 5.

    VOR

    @jonas: The Russian army is using old equipment in the war. IIRC, they even pulled out older T-55 tanks. They have lots of old gear sitting in storage. Of course this old stuff is vulnerable on a modern battlefield.

  7. 7.

    Roger Moore

    @VOR:

    Of course this old stuff is vulnerable on a modern battlefield.

    You also have to question how well maintained it is.  Russia has had problems with reliability since the start of the war, and old equipment pulled out of storage is going to compound the problem.  How many of their maintenance people really know what they’re doing on a T-62 or T-55?

  8. 8.

    Alison Rose

    Western analysts say it has become more widely known within Russia that Moscow’s commanders have scant regard for the lives and welfare of their own troops.

    No shit, Sherlock. I guess it’s good that they’re finally realizing this, but JFC.

  9. 9.

    PaulWartenberg

    At some point, Putin is going to force Russian smartphone businesses to shut down, and block every Internet network connection between Russia the world he possibly can without fcking up his own cyberwar agencies.

  10. 10.

    PaulWartenberg

    We may not have jetpacks for futuristic warfare but our smartphones sure as hell are working to promote the peaceful surrender of unwilling conscripts.

  11. 11.

    Ruckus

    @Joe Falco:

    Answer: No one needs this war except to feed the sick fantasies of a few ONE depraved individual(s) who I hope dies off sooner rather than later.

    I fixed it for you. There is one depraved shitheal. His name is putin.

  12. 12.

    dmsilev

    @Roger Moore: Russia supplied T-62s to various client states/customers up until fairly recently, so they should have at least some semblance of a refurbishment and maintenance capability for those. T-55s, on the other hand…

  13. 13.

    Betty Cracker

    One recurring theme I’ve noticed in reading coverage of this war: Ukrainians use creativity and intelligence to stave off Russia, which relies on cruelty and brute force. As a person who definitely wants Ukraine to win, I’m happy to see this, but it’s also meaningful on a human level, regardless of context.

  14. 14.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    I’m guessing that there’s a significant dry rot problem in anything with a rubber component – gaskets and wiring being particularly susceptible.

  15. 15.

    Princess

    @Ruckus: I wish there was only one. There are many many more who are making their reputations and fortunes in this war — Prigozin, Kadyrov, the generals, all the people on Russian TV. It’s a whole system. If it were just one, Putin could drop dead and it would be over, whereas in fact, whatever follows Putin will surely be worse.

  16. 16.

    Ruckus

    @Roger Moore:

    Actually I imagine that there has been less change in the equipment than one might imagine. In the US we have an industry that supports our military, designing and building the things. Designing stuff that mostly works and reflects newer technologies. In Russia, everything is the government. There is little reward of any kind for advancement or enhancement of humans or equipment. Only threat of failure. It is not a reasonable way to move forward, to advance anything, to entice anyone to do their best, to strive. It almost encourages exactly the opposite. Notice they don’t melt down the old stuff for the resources, that would make sense if there were actually a lot of improvement in equipment. Notice that a lot of the old stuff has decayed, rusted, is useless. Melt it down to start over? That would mean they had built crap in the first place. IOW the top of the pile believes no more in the equipment than the people who build it, operate it, die in it. Which is only what it brings to him. Never what it does to them. He can say he has the largest supply of tanks in the world, the fact that most of them are complete crap has no concept in his world. The only incentive anyone else in Russia has is staying alive. And the only incentive the top shit has is enhancing his power. The two incentives do not mesh well. At all.

  17. 17.

    Burnspbesq

    @PaulWartenberg:

    our smartphones sure as hell are working to promote the peaceful surrender of unwilling conscripts.

    At least until Depraved CEO’s next hissy-fit.

  18. 18.

    gene108

    @VOR:

    The Russian army is using old equipment in the war. IIRC, they even pulled out older T-55 tanks. They have lots of old gear sitting in storage. Of course this old stuff is vulnerable on a modern battlefield.

    Ukrainians are also using their fair share of old Soviet era equipment, as well as captured and repaired Russian equipment.

    Ukraine has some modern NATO arms, but I’m not sure how much of their arms is modern NATO stuff versus older Soviet era equipment or even more modern Russian weapons.

  19. 19.

    FelonyGovt

    @PaulWartenberg: I read this article this morning and wondered if Russian businesses will eventually be prevented from selling basic flip phones, because that is what the Ukrainians are recommending Russian soldiers get, hide and use to call the Ukrainian hotline once deployed.

  20. 20.

    Anonymous At Work

    Question:

    Any intelligence on Seymour Hirsch?  Useful Idiot, knowing Sock Puppet, or just anti-war contrarian?  He’s cited by the NYTs for blaming Biden on the NORD-2 pipeline bombing because Biden said mean things about Putin.

  21. 21.

    Elizabelle

    Watergirl:  thank you for putting up a current events/political post, and with an actual newspaper article as its basis.

    I tire of all the filler and happy stuff and “let’s talk about us!” here of late.

    Slava Ukraini!  Will read this article today.

  23. 23.

    Almost Retired

    @PaulWartenberg:   It would seem like it.  The Russians obviously know about this project.  Heck, I assume someone in the Kremlin is reading the LA Times, especially during Oscars week //

    I wonder what they’re doing/will do about this, besides technology confiscation and using their trademark cruelty to scare off defectors.

    Plus, I assume the Ukrainians have some mechanism for screening for moles.

    Fascinating stuff – maybe the subject of a Hulu Movie or Mini-Series sometime after the war (God, I’ve lived in Los Angeles for too long if that’s my first thought).

  24. 24.

    FelonyGovt

    I have to say that I’m happy to be a Los Angeles Times subscriber these days. The paper went through some very rough periods in recent years, but under current ownership seems to be tackling subjects and taking positions that other papers like the FTFNYT and even WaPo seem to shy away from.

  25. 25.

    Anonymous At Work

    @gene108: Nightly chat is replete with this discussion.  T-55 vs. Leopard-2 tank is not going to be fun for the Russians but the exact details might vary.  To quote Ron White, “I don’t know how many of them I could take in a fight, but I knew how many they were going to use.”  T-55s have targeting issues when moving and trying to fire, lack modern armor, might lack the ability to fire shells capable of penetrating modern armor (???), will have problems in low-visibility environments, etc.  But the question will be how many T-55s vs. how many Leopard-2s, and whether the numerical advantage is sufficient to make any progress, or not.

    Oh, and that’s assuming equally courageous and well-trained crews.

  30. 30.

    Anonymous At Work

    @trollhattan: Smelled like that but I wanted to skinny before I declared “rotten meat” vs. “very new cheese”.  The Glenn-Greenwald Prion Disease takes another one.

  31. 31.

    trollhattan

    @Anonymous At Work: A T55, refreshed with a modernish gunsight and new pine-scent mirror tree, will protect occupants from bullets and…not much else.

    IIUC Russia has nothing, T90 included, that matches western MBTs, three varieties of which will show up on the battlefield quite soon. They still have numbers, though.

    Have been very impressed from recent videos how adept Ukrainian drone-drivers have become dropping grenades through open hatches, usually to bad consequences for the vehicle.

  32. 32.

    Betty Cracker

    @Anonymous At Work: Josh Marshall at TPM posted his take on Hersh recently. Link (probably paywalled) here and excerpt below:

    I’ve had questions from a number of you about why there’s been so little mainstream media pick up of Seymour Hersh’s claim that the U.S. destroyed the Nord Stream pipeline last year. As a factual matter, I think it’s highly unlikely that this is true. But my point here isn’t to dispute the report. People know that Hersh is one of the most high profile and celebrated investigative reporters of the last half century. So how is it he’s suddenly seen as an unreliable source of information?

    On this point I think I can shed some light.

    Over the years I’ve spoken to various of Hersh’s editors and what I heard was pretty consistent: an ingenious reporter totally reliant on having good and strict editing. Basically half or more than half of what he’d come up with wasn’t remotely reliable. But if you could winnow out that crazy stuff and single source claims that didn’t pan out, there was some really great stuff there. In other words, they described Hersh as the kind of reporter who is desperately in need of a good and demanding editor.

  34. 34.

    WaterGirl

    @Almost Retired: Yeah, I wondered about that, too, when you sent me the article.  Why would this be publicized when it seems like that would put a crimp in this important program?

    I added the hat tip up top, by the way.  I got the call from the vet school that the cardiologist was ready to talk to me about the results of Mr. Bear’s tests, and I pressed publish on the post and raced out of the house.

    Mostly good news, by the way.  Whew.

  35. 35.

    Anonymous At Work

    @Betty Cracker: And when dealing with RU and UA sources, I can imagine what you have left after removing single-source or anonymous claims that go nowhere is…nothing.  Can’t write nothing.  Either that, or Substack’s lack of external editing is the problem.

  37. 37.

    Geminid

    Jennifer McClellan will be sworn in this evening as Representative for the Virginia 4th CD. The ceremony will be held on the House floor during a vote series starting at 6:30 pm, and will be shown on one of the C-Span channels

  40. 40.

    tobie

    I can’t imagine being on either end of this call. Making a call about a deployment you don’t want to be involved in but still wrestling with what your country’s doing. Receiving a call from someone who could well become an enemy on the battlefield. Ukraine and Russia are so close and so far apart. Maybe wars in a family are the bloodiest. It’s hard to fathom.

  41. 41.

    trollhattan

    @PaulWartenberg: I’m going to go let the phone guys under their sidewalk canopies up the block here in Methville™ that they’re helping end the war sooner. :-)

  42. 42.

    Bill Arnold

    @Ruckus:

    I fixed it for you. There is one depraved shitheal. His name is putin.

    He has a bunch of sociopathic fluffers, though,. supporting His Ego by supporting Vova’s genocidal vanity project.

  43. 43.

    Alison Rose

    @Elizabelle: This seems like an unnecessarily passive-aggressive and snarky comment. There are “current events/political” posts here every day, most of which include “actual newspaper articles”, some of which may also include tweets, but that shouldn’t diminish the value of the information being shared.

    Also, what is the “let’s talk about us” stuff? The Medium Cool posts? On the Road? These have been staples here for a long time. If you’re looking for nothing but heavy and serious newspaper stuff, you could always…read the newspaper.

    You could have simply thanked WG for the post.

  44. 44.

    WaterGirl

    @FelonyGovt: Thank you!

    So my regular vet heard a heart murmur at Mr. Bear’s last visit.  So I took him to the cardiologist at the University of Illinois Vet School.

    The heard the heart murmur today, too.  They did an echocardiogram and his heart looks great, so they are speculating that the heart murmur is stress related – his chest was heaving because he was nervous so he had more blood pumping faster than usual.

    But they don’t see anything wrong with his heart, so they say they think he really doesn’t have a heart murmur on a regular basis, the he was just stressed there and at the last vet’s visit.

    But Mr. Bear has had the same vet in the same office for his whole life – he is about 12 years old – and they never heard a murmur until the last visit.

    So while it’s great news that his heart looks great, it seems like bullshit to me to say that it’s just stress related, since all the other times he has been to the same vet they never heard a murmur.

    So I am not as relieved as I would like to be.

  45. 45.

    CaseyL

    @FelonyGovt: That’s very good to know, since I’m not too happy with WaPo, but would like to subscribe to one good national newspaper!

  47. 47.

    FelonyGovt

    @WaterGirl: I wonder if that’s like how my blood pressure is always sky-high at the doctor’s office, but fairly well-controlled with meds otherwise? (My doctor put “white coat syndrome” in my chart.) Maybe Mr. Bear has not-so-fond memories of previous vet visits?

  48. 48.

    coin operated

    @Anonymous At Work: @trollhattan: If Russia is fielding T-55s, it’s not just upgraded western MBTs they need to worry about…EVERYTHING we’re sending over will be cause for concern.  The 25mm AT round from a Bradley IFV was effective against the sidewalls of a T-72…it’ll will make quick work of a T-55.

  49. 49.

    TheOtherHank

    It may be that the older the tanks getting pulled from storage are the more likely they are to work. Here’s a 9 year old video of an SU-152 that sat in the woods in Ukraine for 65 years being started up and driven away. That’s a robust engine and drive train.

    Red Army World War 2 equipment wouldn’t be useful, but it would probably run

  50. 50.

    CaseyL

    @WaterGirl: My lifelong healthy-as-a-horse cat Oscar also developed a heart murmur at age 15, which the vet says is caused by hypothyroidism, which in turn is being caused by a benign tumor in his thyroid.

    They’ve prescribed something to bring down his thyroid activity, but won’t know if it’s doing any good with the heart murmur, unless they do another echocardiogram – which, frankly, I can’t afford just now.

    I’m a little leery of this vet clinic: I’ve been taking my cats there for nearly 30 years, and their care is generally excellent, but I’m not sure how good they are with geriatric kitties.  They don’t seem to have a lot of insight into geriatric feline care, and I’m thinking of trying to find another place where they know more.  If such is possible….

  51. 51.

    Bupalos

    @Ruckus: There is a significant portion of Russian society that is as sick as Putin. This idea that it’s just one guy- and when he dies we’re all good- is nearly as wrong as the idea that Trump is what’s wrong in America.

  52. 52.

    Elizabelle

    @Alison Rose:  This blog has gotten really dumbed down, and has turned more into an entertainment site.   Perhaps you cannot see that.  I don’t personally care whether you do or not.

    I was happy to see a return to form.

  53. 53.

    Anonymous At Work

    @trollhattan: The question is whether/how many shots a Leopard-2 or Abrams can take from T-55s combined with rate of fire and accuracy.  How many T55s can a UA MBT destroy before being destroyed itself?

    That might decide a few things in the next UA offensive.

  54. 54.

    gene108

    @Anonymous At Work:

    I doubt this is publicized much, but my point was we don’t really know what percentage of Ukrainian weapons are now NATO versus older pre-2022-war weapons.

    I know the use of NATO weapons and their efficacy gets reported by U.S. media, but I doubt we’ve sent enough for Ukraine to replace their Russian/Soviet weapons, which Ukraine must be using on a daily basis.

    Even with the Leopard 2 tanks, Ukraine will still have a substantial number of Russian T-series tanks in use for whatever tank battles they are planning.

    The war isn’t just new NATO equipment versus old Russian/Soviet equipment. Much of the war probably still involves Ukraine more effectively using Russian/Soviet designed weapons against Russians using similar weapons.

  55. 55.

    Alison Rose

    @Elizabelle: Wow. Let me ask you something: How far of a running leap do you need to make it up onto that high horse? I’m sure the FPers are terribly sorry that they’re not on the same intellectual level as you, but there is big old internet out there where you can find dreary blogs that do nothing but scream about the world ending.

  57. 57.

    Bupalos

    @tobie: Historically, they’re “close” the way any mostly abused colonial possession is close. They are “family” mostly via the kidnap and torture route.

  59. 59.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Alison Rose: FTR I think the mix of posts here is perfect: too much current events leaves one parched for, y’know, pictures of Great Danes.

  60. 60.

    Ruckus

    @West of the Rockies:

    True, but that position wouldn’t exist in, say a democracy, because the system does what it is supposed to do. Wagner is not a military it is an armed enforcement company to profit from warfare. I suspect that vlad gets a cut of the state payments. He’s a guy who brags about making less than a US congressperson, while owning several huge yachts and homes worth millions and is reported to be the wealthiest person in Russia. He’s a lying sack of shit who uses every possible angle to remain in power so he can be the biggest dick in the world and he deserves the title.

  62. 62.

    scav

    It is a Truth universally acknowledged that a Snarling Mass of Vitriolic Jackals confines itself to Profound Discussions of Great Truths with Decorous Solemnity.

  63. 63.

    Ruckus

    @Bill Arnold:

    Every shitheal country has those, it still takes the guy at the top to be THE douche bag to make it work at it’s worst.

    Every good country has those, it still takes the guy at the top to make things travel in a good direction. Example – take our last guy – please take him, or take our current guy – experienced, knowledgeable, reasonable, for the people rather than the fucking money.

  64. 64.

    tobie

    @Bupalos: I didn’t mean to imply that there are two equal sides in this conflict. There are not. Ukraines know more about Russians than vice versa. I was just thinking about what it means for enemy parties to talk on a phone in conversations that sometimes seem to border on psychotherapy.

  66. 66.

    piratedan

    I appreciate this blog for what it does for all of us, it keeps us informed and it allows us a place of respite.  I think I understand what Elizabelle is saying, but that’s not really the fault of the blog (imho).  The timely dissemination of information has changed with Twitter being taken over by an even more fascist owner, the media types that many have followed to break news have not resurfaced on a consensus alternative application, so it feels like what we used to get to feed our need for immediate hot takes and possible responses have been interrupted, a lot more lead time before items of interest get to the surface is taking place or so it feels like to me.

    Also, in these days of ever present creeping fascism, we find ways to stay together and to stay engaged, otherwise we’d all be depressed or going off the deep end shooting up local GOP shindigs and the like moving us into a literal Civil War part II, Electric Boogaloo.  It feels like tightrope walking while whistling past a graveyard in many respects.

  67. 67.

    Dopey-o

    @Alison Rose: What we really need is a Great Dane to run for president.

    What  we really need is Baud riding a Great Dane into the Oval Office!

  68. 68.

    Ruckus

    @CaseyL:

    Best of everything with Oscar!

    Old animals, including humans, are often much harder to diagnose because us old farts are – old. Been working a long time and all our parts starts to slow down, wear out and fail. And often there are few signs because of slow deterioration of all individual parts until failure. Getting old is far better than not, but it often is not for the faint of heart. And that is true for all animals.

  69. 69.

    Geminid

     

     

    @gene108: Some of Ukraine’s Soviet-era tanks have been reworked. A Czech facility refurbishes T-72s with new main guns, fire control systems, reactive armor etc., and 90 of these have been shipped to Ukraine. Ukraine has a substantial armaments industry as well, and has reworked some of its own tanks.

  70. 70.

    West of the Rockies

    @Elizabelle:

    As I’m sure you know, Kos has a lot of the more hard-hitting, pressing material to dig into if you’re so inclined.   I admit that yesterday I felt sort of adrift here with the shortage of new posts.

    Dammit, why isn’t this free internet resource meeting my needs! (I’m eye-rolling myself here.)

    I love the travel, food, pop culture, pet posts here.  Every once in a while though, I get a glimmer of that frustration I think you (Elizabelle) are discussing.  It’s when I’m in a stabby, pissy mood and want to hate-read about Trump, Putin, MTG, Gaetz, etc.  I usually check myself and step outside because such moods aren’t good for me or anyone else.  YMMV.

  72. 72.

    Kelly

    I’m certainly not an expert but I suspect there is some number of T62 and newer Russian MBTs outnumbering modern NATO MBT sufficiently to destroy the modern MBT. What seems unlikely is the Russians can get that formation to the right place at the right time.

  73. 73.

    Chetan Murthy

    @West of the Rockies:

    It’s when I’m in a stabby, pissy mood and want to hate-read about Trump, Putin, MTG, Gaetz, etc.

    I save the comment thread from the daily Ukraine Update posts over at dKos, for that kind of fix.  *grin

  74. 74.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Kelly: I recall reading some story about Challenger tanks, that one of them was disabled by enemy tank fire, but its crew sat tight,  and  a few hours later the tank was recovered; the enemy was unable to destroy the Challenger, and the crew were completely unscathed.  Tough damn tank.

  75. 75.

    Anoniminous

    @gene108: ​
     
    T54/55 series was designed 944-ish and the first prototype produced in 1945. Soviet Union & etc. went on to make ~85,000 of the things, the last being produced for export in 1977. There have been many ‘flavors,’ changes, and improvements over the decades. Undercutting that are the facts its a obsolete chassis with a questionable engine, and a 2A46M 125 mm main gun coupled with the autoloader from the T-72B and so shares the latter’s tendency to toss its turret in a ball of flame when hit by an anti-tank round or anti-tank guided missile.

  77. 77.

    Tony G

    @Alison Rose: I’ll make an obvious point: When reading a blog (like when reading a printed magazine) the reader can just skip over the parts that the reader is not interested in.

  78. 78.

    Kelly

    @Chetan Murthy: Recent reports indicate Ukraine is training and organizing the modern MBTs and other modern armored vehicles in consolidated units.  Them tough tanks may never be alone.

  79. 79.

    Geminid

    Right now with the battlelines so static, it would be hard for most of the unwilling Russian soldiers to defect. That hotline may really get a workout later this Spring though, if and when the Ukraining Army breaks through the Russian front line. Then things could become very chaotic within Russia’s army.

  80. 80.

    Tony G

    @Bill Arnold: The big question in mind mind is whether Putin would be replaced by someone even worse if his fellow mobsters decided to whack him.

  82. 82.

    Ruckus

    I’ve been reading this blog for a very long time, as have many of us.

    This blog has more than one side, more than one issue, more than one interest. And that is one reason it’s still here and still works very well. The people that write posts come and go and the one’s no longer here are missed greatly, because this site has always been more than a one issue blog. It is a blog about and involving humanity, with all it foibles, all it good stuff and yes some of the not so good. IOW it is a blog about humanity, by humans, for humans. It can not be all that if it can’t hold more than one issue/idea/ideal in it’s clutches. There are many other blogs that started around the same time that no longer exist or exist in almost a vacuum because they were more singly focused. This one has lasted because it allows more. A wider, likely unspoken level of freedom from structure of content. I’d bet the only thing John has ever said couldn’t be on here is porn.

    This is a go to place on the internet for a hell of a lot of people, most of whom like what they see and the freedom to speak up on any issue. I for sure hope it outlasts most of us, because it works, it is the city square, the town hall, the back yard fence, the gossip group, the club, of not just a small town or a single back fence, it is all of that to anyone with a computer and access. I say welcome and enjoy.

  84. 84.

    Tony G

    @Elizabelle: In addition to being morally decent, this is an intelligent policy.  A soldier who has surrendered is off the battlefield just as much as a dead soldier.  And a surrender tends to result in additional surrenders.

  85. 85.

    raven

    The Chiêu Hồi program ([ciə̯w˧ hoj˧˩] (also spelled “chu hoi” or “chu-hoi” in English) loosely translated as “Open Arms”[1]) was an initiative by the U.S – Republic of Vietnam to encourage defection by the People’s Army of Vietnam (PAVN) and Viet Cong (VC) and their supporters to the side of the government during the Vietnam War. According to U.S, 101,511 PAVN/VC defected under the program[2] but one analyst speculates that less than 25% of those were genuine.[3]

  86. 86.

    trollhattan

    @Kelly: Far as I can tell (not all that much) is classic tank battles are rare in Ukraine and a tank is more likely to be taken out by an ATGM, artillery (especially via guided shell), loitering weapon, kamikaze drone, drone-dropped weapon, anti-tank mine, and the like.

    Russia just crossed 1,000 T-72 series confirmed lost. 

    Think we know from where Ukraine restarts their steel industry.

  87. 87.

    ian

    @Ruckus:

    True, but that position wouldn’t exist in, say a democracy, because the system does what it is supposed to do.

    Haven’t read the comments down from this yet, but Erik Prince and Xe (formerly Blackwater) seem like a glaring American counterpart to Wagner.

    Private mercenaries exist with every form of government.

  88. 88.

    Alison Rose

    @Elizabelle: What don’t I get? You’re being a jerk. That’s plain as day. You came in here saying this place was full of dumb vacuous garbage that you didn’t care about and THANK THE LORD someone put up a post you deem worthy.

    No one is required to cater to you. And your attitude sure as shit isn’t gonna make anyone want to do so.

  89. 89.

    Chetan Murthy

    It’s early days, but are people here watching what’s happening in Georgia ?  Hooboy:

    1. Those are some brave people; power to them
    2. I trust (and sure believe) they’re connected with the Ukrainians who did this 9yr ago in Kyiv.

    Georgians want to live in a normal country, too.  One that doesn’t poison and slowly torture its former President to death.

  90. 90.

    C Stars

    @WaterGirl

    Well I mostly lurk, sometimes comment, but I really enjoy being able to read the less political content. BJers are a really interesting group and that’s why I’m here. I mean, let’s face it, it all comes back to politics, but having a post where people give culture recommendations while postcarding? I think it’s great!

  93. 93.

    Elizabelle

    @schrodingers_cat:  Thank you.  Your mentioning that on some earlier posts gave me the courage to say something.

    On my phone.  Might respond more via laptop later.

  96. 96.

    Anonymous At Work

    @gene108: Sorry, work stuff.  UA has developed and refined a system of attack emphasizing combined arms and mobility to bypass hard points, get into the rear area, isolate hard-points, and then use the older systems and fixed artillery to destroy hard-points in detail.  A lot like Patton’s Third Army breakout during the drive to the Rhine.
    So, Leopard-2 and Abrams take the lead to sweep away the initial resistance from T-55s, with the UA T-60s and T-90s helping as a second line, combined with IFVs and artillery.  This is what MBTs were made for: open-field conflict with other MBTs (old terminology is heavy tanks) to exploit weak spots to allow breakthroughs.
    I would presume RU would try to counter with a massed tank push and lots of artillery but artillery ammo shortages, “It’s Always HIMAR O’Clock,” and running short of tanks/tank crews would present problems.

    Oh, and others can speak to this but UA has shown innovative tactics in OpSec.  I doubt many inside or outside UA’s command structure know how much NATO equipment is in the field and how much old Soviet equipment is in the field under UA control.

  97. 97.

    WaterGirl

    @Tony G:

    On a laptop, if you Ctrl-click, you can choose to download the file.

    On my iPhone, I just did a long press, and “download linked file” came up as an option.

    I assume the same would be true on a tablet.

    Yes!  Plus, you cannot do a prisoner exchange with dead Russians. The more prisoners Ukraine has, the more Ukrainian solders they can get back in exchange.  Or I would think that would be true, in any case.

    In addition to being morally decent, this is an intelligent policy. A soldier who has surrendered is off the battlefield just as much as a dead soldier. And a surrender tends to result in additional surrenders.

  99. 99.

    Chetan Murthy

    @WaterGirl: One presumes (grimly) that part of why Putin is kidnapping UA children, is to use as hostages in any future negotiation.

  102. 102.

    Baud

    @Dopey-o:

    What  we really need is Baud riding a Great Dane into the Oval Office!

     
    Unfortunately, the Veep also has to be American.

  104. 104.

    satby

    @schrodingers_cat: @Elizabelle: lost cause, people. The old blog is dead. That’s why a number of us migrated to other places and only occasionally check in here. Lost cause.

    And when someone pulls up a years old post and marvels at all the names that no longer comment, well here’s your answer.

    BTW, @Alison Rose: no, you don’t get it. You jumped in on a comment to someone else, who does get it because she’s gotten email about it and just pretends not to.

  105. 105.

    WaterGirl

    @Chetan Murthy:

    One presumes (grimly) that part of why Putin is kidnapping UA children, is to use as hostages in any future negotiation.

    If only.  That would at least give children a chance to come home.  My assumption is that they kidnap Ukrainian children to make good Russians out of them.  Which makes me want to vomit.

  106. 106.

    schrodingers_cat

    @satby: Oh I know. Just wanted to let Elizabelle know that she was not alone. Especially after she was attacked by a bunch of commenters. I have been in her shoes and have gotten grief about expressing  similar opinions.

    That’s why I am mostly on Twitter these days. Just participated in a Space held in India in Marathi about Manusmriti (Hindu law book that the BJP is trying to bring in by the backdoor.)

  107. 107.

    raven

    Yea, we don’t have the fucking world expert here deciding who a Russian troll is in HER blog.

  110. 110.

    Elizabelle

    Anyway. I am delighted to see us reading and commenting on an excellent article from the Los Angeles Times. Which can be a very good paper.  I’ve subscribed for years.

    As Betty Cracker has mentioned, several of the Florida newspapers are also doing superb reporting.  They mostly have paywalls, alas.  I subscribe to the Miami Herald, but don’t keep up with it enough.

    I wish we used this blog more to get the word out about good journalism.  No reason the FTF NY Times should assume they’re the paper of record.  They are actually falling behind, in many categories.

  112. 112.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Tony G: This stuff is, as I understand it, right out of textbooks on psychological warfare.

    You’d think the Russians would be good at psychological warfare since they’re such expert trolls. But they don’t seem to get this particular kind of tactic. They can do negative, sow unrest and dissent, get friends fighting each other.

  114. 114.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: oops, reply to the right person, but with the wrong block quote.

    I guess I was thrown off when you said you come for the dog posts.  I thought you came here  for me. (okay, not really)

  115. 115.

    Barbara

    @schrodingers_cat: No, it’s true.  We never used to have comprehensive updates on pandemic diseases or the war in Ukraine.  We used to have fights about Bernie bros — we even had to give him an alternative name to avoid being overwhelmed by trolls.

    I admit that I can do without any posts on Elon Musk, but then, my life has never revolved around Twitter.  I happily skip those.

    But I really do think it churlish not to give some amount of thanks to all the posters who have pitched in to keep us informed about every upcoming election and how any of us can take concrete action to affect the outcome.  And for identifying worthwhile under the radar groups that are making real positive change in their local environs in a way that will likely help us all and that we can enable.

    In short, I would trade all the informed and sophisticated witty posts for the possibility of feeling useful.  YMMV

  116. 116.

    trollhattan

    @Matt McIrvin: One fundamental problem I perceive them having is not accepting that their foe (Ukraine, and “the west” in general) is more sophisticated and skillful than they are willing to, or allowed to believe. If you’re not able to acknowledge “Yeah, they’re really good” then how can you skillfully confront and counter them?

    Very transparent, that emperor’s clothes.

  118. 118.

    scav

    Ah, if only things were exactly what they were like during the past when everything was as I wanted it, those people knew their place and the Oxford Comma Rule was strictly obeyed.  Was this before or after John was a republican?  Sports threads in, Fundraising out? What are these newfangled calendar things?  Tone Police & complaints are, to be scrumptiously fair, a long term and revered tradition.  Brawl on.

  121. 121.

    Barbara

    @schrodingers_cat: Kiss off.  Seriously, I have been around since 2005 or even earlier — I came and went because I had a baby around that time.  I am a compulsive news reader.  I come here for point of view and camaraderie.  There are times I need it more than others but it’s silly to complain without at least volunteering to do better or provide more of what you are looking for in your own comments.

  122. 122.

    schrodingers_cat

    @raven: That’s Elizabelle’s opinion not mine.

    IMHO the blog’s personality has changed it reflects WG’s personality more than JGC’s. May be that’s what everyone wants including JGC. But it is not just Elizabelle who has noticed it.

  123. 123.

    Jackie

    @Ruckus: Well said, Ruckus!

    I came lurking here early 2003 when Bush was trying to justify invading Iraq because “they were hiding WMD,” and was guided here by now defunct blogs. I was trying to find a *sane conservative’s pov,* and met John Cole.

    The debates were educational and I kept lurking. I watched Cole’s slow but steady shift to the Left and BJ has been my go-to blog for decades.

  125. 125.

    WaterGirl

    @schrodingers_cat:

    There are multiple front-pagers on Balloon Juice, and every front-pager chooses what they write about in their own posts.

    Please feel free to skip anything I write if you don’t care for it.

  127. 127.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Barbara: And that’s good, right?  If Valeriy is prisoner in UA, and calls home to tell the folks about the good food he’s eating, the warm clothes and warm bed, the good treatment, it might cause some of his relations to, y’know, think twice about bombing Ukraine until the rubble bounces.

  128. 128.

    gwangung

    @schrodingers_cat: Blog personality will change, when it lasts as long as Balloon Juice has. Even more so when the main administrator changes.

    I find the current version as congenial as the older versions, but that’s YMMV territory. But blog denizens do have a certain amount of power (not overwhelming, but greater than zero) to shape the warp and woof of the blog.

  130. 130.

    zhena gogolia

    I’ve belonged to a church since 1998. People come and go. Sometimes they give a GBCW speech, sometimes they just slip away. It’s the way voluntary associations of human beings work. I see the same thing here. I’m still committed to my church and I’m still committed to this place.

    ETA: Oh, and in church people bitch about the quality of the unpaid work of volunteers, too.

  131. 131.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Barbara: Just as the “I want to live” hotline is an excellent idea (both moral and info-ops) I think the same is true of the “prisoners call their mothers” and “mothers can come to UA to collect their sons” programs.

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gwangung: I am willing to bet that most of us are different than we were 10 years or so ago.  Trump, a pandemic, fascism again becoming more than a throwaway insult on the internet….  Shit like that is bound to have an effect.

  135. 135.

    schrodingers_cat

    @WaterGirl: I didn’t say that I don’t care for your posts. Some I do and some I don’t.

    You run this blog now and it reflects your personality not just the posts you write. JGC seems cool with it so who am I to object.

    I wanted to show Elizabelle that she was not alone.

  137. 137.

    Ruckus

    @Kelly:

    What seems unlikely is the Russians can get that formation to the right place at the right time. 

    What else is likely is that while the design might actually be good, the build quality, the reliability, the operator training, the ammo, and the personal likely are not exactly first rate because they all have humans in charge along the way who do not respect those below and who couldn’t do the job if they had to. And one on occasion runs into this type in any large organization that takes pretty much anyone who comes along and has at least the minimal qualifications. In the US this can sometimes define the military. In Russia I’d bet it defines everything.

  138. 138.

    JWR

    @Alison Rose: @Elizabelle:

    On the one hand, I come down on Elizabelle’s side, in that I can do without all the pet and other stuff, (trust me, I truly loved and cared for all my kitties over the years, but can no longer physically care for any more pets), and would prefer the blog be all politics, all the time.

    OTOH, I’m on Alison’s side, in that I know there’s a ton of stuff I can easily find on my own, and so don’t raise a stink about the blog not being all about my wants and needs.

    Hell, if it were MY blog, I’d make it all about politics, and Led Zeppelin.

    And Steve Vai. ;)

  139. 139.

    livewyre

    As a lurker of years, I’m frankly surprised and grateful that this place has kept going at all, let alone as a community. It hasn’t been a problem for me that the landscape has changed and that ways have parted and joined.

    Is this progress? I don’t know that anyone can say. Maybe other places sapped away the spirit of conflict that gave it life for some of us. Meanwhile, others of us are freer to speak up. That can be fine. The past isn’t coming back either way.

  140. 140.

    Bill Arnold

    @WaterGirl:
    The main thing I miss is that google does not have the site’s archives indexed.
    This is one of the few big sites that has comments indexed, so loss of the google indexes when the site was down for a while and then name-changed (dropping the www.) was a act of erasure. (By F’in Russian ransomware scum? Was that ever determined?) New posts+comments since the site’s resurrection are being indexed (sometimes not the straggling comments), and there are other crawlers too. It’s unlike e.g. LGM, where comments are erudite snarky cynical farts into the void. (Sometimes clever, but ephemeral.)

  141. 141.

    Bill Arnold

    Re paywalls:
    Bypass paywalls will work with desktop Chrome-family browsers and Firefox-family browsers.
    https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome (also has a link for firefox).

    Big guide with helpful hints.
    https://www.bardeen.ai/posts/extensions-to-bypass-paywall

    https://lifehacker.com/how-to-get-past-a-paywall-to-read-an-article-for-free-1847800292

    New York Times and a few other sites currently have a weakness where a properly-timed stop-loading click within a few 10s of milliseconds of text appearing will block the paywall loading.

    Also, use at least one ad-blocker and at least one tracker blocker; will mostly demonetize use of a site.

  142. 142.

    Manyakitty

    @WaterGirl: good news from the vet is ALWAYS welcome. Yay! I got some, too. Heisenberg is almost 15 and has been a steady 17-19 pounds for at least the last 10 years. He went in for his shots yesterday and was down almost 2 pounds since June. After blood work and so forth, he’s mostly okay. No diabetes, just slightly elevated pancreas readings. As long as he’s asymptomatic, we can coast. Phew!!

  143. 143.

    WaterGirl

    @Bill Arnold: We also haven’t indexed BJ since the 3-way merge, because we are looking at a different indexing system that can better handle a blog with 6.7 million comments.

    I did see your comment the other day asking if we can ask Google to index the site, but I have a lot going on and that got lost in the shuffle.  If you’re wiling to send me that by email, I’ll make sure that issue gets on my to do list.

  145. 145.

    sdhays

    The FTFNYT has more insights from our intelligence community:

    New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months.

    U.S. officials said that they had no evidence President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine or his top lieutenants were involved in the operation, or that the perpetrators were acting at the direction of any Ukrainian government officials.

    The brazen attack on the natural gas pipelines, which link Russia to Western Europe, fueled public speculation about who was to blame, from Moscow to Kyiv and London to Washington, and it has remained one of the most consequential unsolved mysteries of Russia’s year-old war in Ukraine.

    Sure, a concerned citizens group from a country hundreds of miles away delivered 1000 lbs. of “military grade” explosives to the ocean floor. And Russia probably didn’t do it because “it’s illogical” (because Western logic has done such a great job of explaining Russia’s actions).

    I’m going to continue to wear my skeptic’s hat on these anonymous reports from various intelligence agencies until we’re presented with evidence.

  146. 146.

    Manyakitty

    @Elizabelle: wow, seriously? I’ve been following this blog for upwards of 15 years. It moves with the news, but it’s always been a mix of politics/news and culture. YMMV, apparently.

  148. 148.

    gwangung

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yup. I mean, I’ve slid firmly into the senior citizen demographic, so I’m feeling my cantankerous oats and leaning into it.

    I’m relatively sanguine about the changes in the atmosphere of the blog, but I also don’t mind discussions about it (navel-gazing as it is).

  150. 150.

    Alison Rose

    This might be a dying thread and maybe I shouldn’t even bother, but some of y’all seem to be misreading shit. For one thing, my first comment to Elizabelle was in response to her saying this:

    thank you for putting up a current events/political post, and with an actual newspaper article as its basis.

    I tire of all the filler and happy stuff and “let’s talk about us!” here of late.

    The first line is passive-aggressive and unduly snide. She could have said “Thank you for this post” and left it at that. The second line was just unnecessary bitching about, apparently, any of the posts that don’t focus on politics, world news, etc. Calling those posts, which do take effort and which many people enjoy, “filler” is again unduly snide.

    Then there was:

    This blog has gotten really dumbed down, and has turned more into an entertainment site.

    Calling the blog — and by extension, the FPers who post here most frequently — dumb is just fucking rude and uncalled for. There is still plenty of substantive content and discussion. I have personally learned a lot from comment threads here. As has been noted, we have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to experts in various fields, and even if the post might not be Pulitzer worthy, the comment threads can often be very wise and enlightening.

    A blog like this is obviously going to morph a bit over time. John has other shit in his life and isn’t sitting at his computer all day because a bunch of people online want him to. And the odd comments about the site reflecting WG’s personality…do you mean the countless posts and endless effort she’s done about fundraising, and electoral strategy, and grassroots outreach, and so on and so forth? How the hell is that something different from what you think the blog is supposed to be? WG, Anne Laurie, Adam, and others have done a lot of work on this site to keep us all informed and engaged and putting our money to use and our boots on the ground to make good shit happen. Seeing people getting whiny because not every post appeals to them is aggravating to me as a commenter, and I imagine might feel more so to a FPer. I don’t have any outdoor space and do not own a single plant because they literally die within days of coming near me, but I don’t hop into the garden threads and be like OMG BORING FILLER. This is like when people get crabby with AL for still using tweets in her posts because IT’S SUPPORTING ELON MUSK!!!! (I’d love to see your credentials about how you definitely do not support any bad companies whatsoever with the products you buy and services you use.)

    Anyone is allowed to not like certain posts. That’s fine. But you do not need to express on the screen every thought in your head. And if the thought in your head is rude, you can 100% keep it to yourself. If the blog tomorrow suddenly because literally nothing but TikTok videos reviewing makeup or something, then sure, go ahead and pipe up. But if a portion of the posts on topics that have been present here for years don’t hold your interest, you can simply skip past them. Calling the blog dumb, filler, happy (that’s a bad thing????), etc isn’t going to make anyone want to change things to suit you. The world and this blog does not revolve around any one person, and you don’t actually need to advertise the fact that it makes you grumpy.

    JFC people.

  152. 152.

    Manyakitty

    @Chetan Murthy: nah. I don’t think it’s that deep. Stealing the kids bulks his population back up. Gotta grow more cannon fodder and it’s easier if they’re already started. 🤮

  153. 153.

    Manyakitty

    @Chetan Murthy: I saw an episode of an Anthony Bourdain show set in Georgia  (can’t recall which) and they showed Russian soldiers literally moving the border fence and stealing people’s farms and grazing land. They were casual about it and the Georgians were pretty much helpless.

    Unfathomable.

  156. 156.

    ian

    @Manyakitty: It wouldn’t surprise me either.  The argument I was trying to make with people like Prince (or insert which ever security contractor you like) was that the United States and other democracies are not immune to his ilk.  Having shady military groups that are semi-legitimate and semi-public is not just a problem for dictatorships.

  157. 157.

    livewyre

    @Alison Rose: The funny thing is, I can actually take these comments somewhat at face value. Not because I agree with them, but because during the process of typing several less polite things than I ended up with, I realized that part of what’s being complained about might just be the loss of opportunities to fight for/about something.

    Why wouldn’t expressing that grief, the loss of a place to fight, itself take the form of picking a fight like the old days? Thinking about it that way restored my humor. At this point it’s moot; there’s nothing left for it to change, so I can only see it as venting the way anyone does.

    Yeah, it’s hostile and exclusionary and if it stood a chance of shifting things back then I would be worried, but at this point I feel like there are enough of us who prefer it otherwise (and feel able to let our hair down a bit in the cooler atmosphere) that it’s just… well… see the name of the blog… what we’re here for.

  159. 159.

    Chetan Murthy

    @ian: Perun had a good video  about this recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXKUNc9yI2A

    I think a summary might be: PMCs/mercs arise when states cannot effectively project power; PMCs like Blackwater were mostly supporting actors, guarding convoys, bases, VIPs, etc, but when it came time for actual raiding villages and taking down entrenched opponents, the Marines/Army got the job.  Wagner is different for two reasons:

    1. going back to Syria they’re actually doing those trigger-puller jobs, the jobs of infantry, and they have the heavy weapons (even planes) to go with that job
    2. all over Africa, Wagner is playing a somewhat geopolitical role, allowing Russia to take stakes in places that they couldn’t officially, but via Wagner, they can unofficially.  As in: Wagner aids despots to stay in power, in exchange for control of some local resource stream that they then extract.

    Anyway, these are both things that Blackwater/Xe/Akademi don’t do.  But I’d add a third reason:

    3. There’s no evidence that Prince is actually obedient to the US government; lately he seems to be in bed with China and some Arab sheikh whose name I forget.  That’s not the case with Wagner: they’re definitely on a leash and the other end is held by Vladimir Vladimirovitch.

    But I could be misinterpreting, or just wrong.

  161. 161.

    Ruckus

    @ian:

    You said the one thing necessary to make my point

    Private mercenaries.

    Wagner is a state mercenary group, they are paid for by the government. Which in this case is like saying the owner of the country, even if it isn’t him that make out the checks directly, they are still one and the same.

  163. 163.

    Ruckus

    @Chetan Murthy:

    vlad could also just be being the major asshole he’s always been but is now amped up on seeing the end in site while having not having completed his asshole self enrichment project, the one where every single person on the planet knows without a possible doubt that he is the most major asshole ever on the planet.

  165. 165.

    CarolPW

    Since Cole began to tweet more than post, and since WaterGirl became the technical interface the blog has become more sweetness and light, an unfortunate progression in many ways. I liked the tartness of the previous iteration. But since her work allowed Anne Laurie do her covid posts (which I firmly believe has kept me alive and also supplied with sufficient toilet paper), and allowed Adam’s Ukraine posts (essential), as well as implementing very effective strategic fund raising for the last election, I would take a bullet for her (not in a lethal location, but in a very ouch place).

  166. 166.

    Ruckus

    @zhena gogolia:

    How many wars are going on at this time? I’d actually bet that you are correct, that this is not the only one. (and in fact I know that’s true) But this is not just a territorial battle, this is one sick bastard with a very large military, attempting not to take over a country, he’s attempting to destroy it and everyone in it because he can’t have it. And he’s losing badly and still sends in his own untrained citizens just to die, and just because he wants to be the worlds biggest asshole. BTW he’s succeeding.

  168. 168.

    NutmegAgain

    @Ruckus: Yes, and thank you. In addition to all the humanity, there is a steady supply of cats and dogs–truly helpful in maintaining psychological balance in these trying times.

  170. 170.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I came for the politics, stayed for the  snark, and there’s less of both now. I’ve long thought the phenomenon of “respite” and otherwise restricted threads changed the dynamic here, the “every thread is an open thread” ethos that made for interesting conversations. I find the narrow threads less interesting, so I read and comment less.

    And in the last few months, it seems like comments peter out much earlier in the evening (eastern time zones) than they used to. Where have all the mountaineers, west coasters and Hawaiians gone?

  171. 171.

    Ruckus

    @zhena gogolia:

    Thank You.

    I’ve been programing and using computers since 1973. I stopped programing about 30 yrs ago and just use one as a communication tool. I started my own blog about the same time John did and then I found that his was better and did more than mine, it fulfilled my needs/desires for a blog without the work. Since then it has grown and flowered. People around the world comment here. Not everyone is going to like every post or every commenter because we are human and that’s how humanity works. If you don’t like a post, move on. This blog belongs to one person. It’s his. He gets to decide who posts, how open it is, what is and ISN’T allowed. He has, on occasion put someone in a corner on a child’s chair because they can’t play nice. It’s his right to do that and he does it very rarely because most of us are adults, or at least act like it most of the time.

    My point of this diatribe is that it isn’t our’s. We are guests, mostly welcome, sometimes not, because any one of us can act like children on occasion. And there is a lot more freedom to do that here than most any place else. That is one thing that makes it great. Anyone can have an off day and unless that off day is attacking someone else that should be the end of it. And quite often is. But this blog has been here a very long, long time if viewed in blogging time or even human time and it’s going to have a hiccup or two because those humans are involved.

    Can we please just fucking move on?

  172. 172.

    J R in WV

    @Elizabelle: ​
    Elizabelle shows up here from time to time, usually when she is having some sort of issue with the world.

    I’m not sure why she only appears on B-J when she is having a personal crisis, but that surey appears to be the case. Maybe it takes a personal crisis to push her to communicate with the B-J commentariat. We will never know for sure.

  178. 178.

    NotMax

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Where have all the mountaineers, west coasters and Hawaiians gone?

    Ahem.

    Agree, though, about the sparseness late at night. Used to be the spot for more freewheeling, casual intercourse (and less preaching to the choir).

  179. 179.

    Ruckus

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I for one am thankful that once again we have a federal government that isn’t run by a 4 yr old in an oversized body who thinks that everything rotates around the pole stuck up his nether regions and appreciate a bit of calmness, pets, garden stuff, general fluff, and reports on the major war going on half way around the world, because one old selfish fart (who was supported by that 4yr old in a way oversized body) wants it all because something, something bullshit

    My point is of course that the last few years have been a tad shitty. I’m glad it is possibly a bit less so.

  180. 180.

    Kay

    I think the blog is different too. More conflict-averse, less newsy and topical and political but I think I agree with satby- the old blog is gone and not coming back so the choice is whether to stick around and adapt or go. There is no “old version of BJ” choice :)

    Everything changes. It was inevitable this would too.

  182. 182.

    CarolPW

    @schrodingers_cat: No, it is a direct fuck you. You repeatedly show those of us on the blog you dislike pretty much everyone here except Baud. It is tedious. Too bad, because the color use in your art is very good and it would be nice to deal with something other than your Wilmer obsession you have tarred all of us with.

  183. 183.

    Bill Arnold

    @WaterGirl:

    If you’re wiling to send me that by email, I’ll make sure that issue gets on my to do list.

    OK, will write an email. Google (and other search engines) are what draw attention. If one e.g. drops a google-able name or article title/link, it can (and does…) attract attention from the name, author(s) and others. New lurkers, etc.
    Here are few links that might be helpful.
    https://support.google.com/programmable-search/answer/4513925?hl=en
    https://developers.google.com/search/docs/crawling-indexing/sitemaps/overview
    and a blog article by a practitioner:
    https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-index/

  184. 184.

    Elizabelle

    @Kay:   But do we have to settle for adult day care?  This place is becoming a naturally ocurring retirement community.  Seriously.  Must admit, the scheduling and rigidity has got me stabby.

    Schrödinger’s cat (autocorrect!!) was far kinder than I would be.  She said “genteel.”  I would have gone with “insipid,” and not for all content, as some commenters have tried to twist my words.  I laugh every time I see “Sun Bund State”, because it’s so clever, and so true.   And so dangerous.

    Why take the fangs off John Cole’s wonderful little blog?  This place had power.

    It’s not a personal crisis, as JR so kindly suggested a few comments up.  It is expecting better.  I was so happy to see a discussion of an interesting article.

    I don’t think this is so much a blog “evolution” as trying to fill a vacuum.

    FWIW, I think a lot of us are catching our breath after TFG.  Not surprised there’s a lull, so bring on the indictments!

  185. 185.

    FelonyGovt

    @Elizabelle: Anyone is free to provide their own content in the comments as far as I know. As for me, I appreciate the  “insipid retirement home” and it sounds like others do as well.

  186. 186.

    StringOnAStick

    @Alison Rose: Agreed.  The people writing here are doing it as volunteers.  If the content people are providing  here for free isn’t what you want to read, go find some that is; the internet is a big place.  Insulting the volunteers here because it’s not like it used to be is rude; maybe John doesn’t write much anymore because he has, you know, things he’s rather do.  Maybe all these front pagers have things they’d rather be doing than writing here, but they feel a sense of community, a sense that they could end if enough people make it clear that they think their efforts suck.  I agree with Alison Rose: JFC, people.

  187. 187.

    Kay

    @Elizabelle:

     But do we have to settle for adult day care?

    lol. I too sometimes wonder what the “respite” is FROM :)

    I think it’s natural and inevitable it would change, though. Also- basically the same people said all this about 6 months ago and the blog didn’t return to what it was, so my guess is it isn’t coming back.

  188. 188.

    Elizabelle

    @Kay:  I think you’re probably right. And thank you for understanding what I was trying to say.

  190. 190.

    Kay

    @StringOnAStick:

    Criticizing the frontpagers used to be about 50% of comments.

    It’s why they’re “jackals” and I say this from personal experience as a former FP’er :)

  193. 193.

    schrodingers_cat

    @CarolPW: Oh and I like a lot of commenters here. just in this thread, Jim the Foolish Literalist, Kay, gogol’s wife, Not Max, JR in WV, Ruckus, raven and so on.

    Rikyrah, cain, Momsense, Yutsano, Subaru Diane and many more who are not in this thread.

    And many commenters who don’t post here anymore like AsiangrlinMN, Cornerstone.

  195. 195.

    scav

    We now have people complaining that the place has gotten too genteel and overly polite and then getting all het up because people ganged up on a commenter and got all passive aggressive.  That is one hellish tiny needle to thread.

  198. 198.

    Mo MacArbie

    This place has changed. There used to be NASCAR threads. NASCAR threads. All the little I know about NASCAR comes from this place.

    Sure, there used to be more arguments. They used to end too.

  206. 206.

    Barbara

    @schrodingers_cat: ​Maybe having a real enemy does that to people when they realize they have more in common than they have in conflict. You might call it the Trump effect.

  209. 209.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Barbara: It was the Trump era that made me realize how different I was from most of the BJ commentariat. Before Trump those differences didn’t seem to matter.

    Until I started talking about myself as an immigrant and focusing on immigration issues in the comments no one had accused me of not understanding English in the comments, after T it has happened several times with more than one FPer.

    I was not called names or sworn at either. Trump years showed me the limits of allyship and integration.

  210. 210.

    Barbara

    @schrodingers_cat: Pre-Trump, it was easier to argue from the safety of knowing that we had President Obama —  but arguing over small differences seems unjustified, maybe even tedious, when you are faced with an existential threat.  Maybe then you really want a place of safety and refuge.  That’s how I see it, anyway.  And maybe you don’t find that safety and refuge, and for that I am sorry — I am not exactly sure how your experience as an immigrant changed your reception here (or your perception of it, really, the same thing, IMHO).  I know I value your comments, but especially about things you have much more knowledge than most others here.

  211. 211.

    evodevo

    @Alison Rose: ​
      Yes…thank you for this…I left Calculated Risk a few years ago after following it for several years because the infighting/flame wars between commenters got too much. I’d certainly hate for that to happen here. I don’t read every article in a newspaper either…just skip the parts that don’t interest you lol – very simple solution.

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