Ron DeSantis is a whining, peevish horror show of a politician across multiple issues, as we’ve discussed in detail in this space. But I think his statement about Ukraine yesterday — and to whom he chose to make that statement — is worth highlighting because it confirms something most of us already suspected: DeSantis doesn’t care about democracy and is in fact actively hostile to it. From the Times:
Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida has sharply broken with Republicans who are determined to defend Ukraine against Russia’s invasion, saying in a statement made public on Monday night that protecting the European nation’s borders is not a vital U.S. interest and that policymakers should instead focus attention at home…
The venue Mr. DeSantis chose for his statement on a major foreign policy question revealed almost as much as the substance of the statement itself. The statement was broadcast on “Tucker Carlson Tonight,” on Fox News. It was in response to a questionnaire that the host, Mr. Carlson, sent last week to all major prospective Republican presidential candidates, and is tantamount to an acknowledgment by Mr. DeSantis that a candidacy is in the offing.
On Mr. Carlson’s show, Mr. DeSantis separated himself from Republicans who say the problem with Mr. Biden’s Ukraine policy is that he’s not doing enough. Mr. DeSantis made clear he thinks Mr. Biden is doing too much, without a clearly defined objective, and taking actions that risk provoking war between the U.S. and Russia.
To underscore why it matters that DeSantis chose Carlson’s show as his venue for this statement, recall that as Putin began his failed attempt at a full-scale invasion of Ukraine last year — as the world waited for Russian troops to roll triumphantly into Kyiv — Carlson was “just asking questions” on Fox News: (WaPo)
“It may be worth asking yourself, since it is getting pretty serious, what is this really about? Why do I hate Putin so much?” he said on his Tuesday night show. “Has Putin ever called me a racist? Has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him?”
“These are fair questions, and the answer to all of them is ‘no.’ Vladimir Putin didn’t do any of that,” he said. “So, why does permanent Washington hate him so much?”
In 2019, Carlson said, ” Why shouldn’t I root for Russia? Which by the way I am.” (Twitter link) So at least he’s been consistent. Since then, Ukraine inspired citizens of democratic countries around the world with its heroic stand against a much-larger aggressor, Russians have killed and wounded countless Ukrainian civilians, and Russian troops have committed horrifying war crimes.
Carlson’s show remains a Putin regime favorite, with clips rebroadcast in Russia, so it makes sense for DeSantis to stake out his anti-Ukraine position on Carlson’s show. Who knows, maybe the GRU will transfer its allegiance from Trump to DeSantis.
Samuel Johnson said, “When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life.” Here’s a 2023 U.S. politics version, “When a candidate doesn’t give a shit about Ukraine, he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about democracy.”
Predictably, the Times coverage linked above covers the DeSantis statement as a foreign policy split within a horserace framework, describing Trump and DeSantis as candidates who are against “becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia” (as DeSantis put it) on one side vs. “internationalists and Republican hawks” (as the Times put it) on the other.
It’s much deeper than that, and I wish our broken political media had the wit to perceive it and the courage to name it. These statements point to a schism within one of our two viable political parties where the power center resides with leaders who are against democracy itself, as demonstrated not solely by their attitudes toward Russia’s invasion of Ukraine but their domestic policy agenda too.
I’m so damn sick of every goddamn election being “the most important election of our lifetime,” but here we go again.
Open thread.
Jerzy Russian
Instead of saying (or writing) “Christ, what an asshole!” I will instead say (or write) “Christ, what a DeSantis!”.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Each election must necessarily be the most important election ever in turn. Those prior elections were about the past. This upcoming election is about the future.
gene108
DeSantis seems laser focused on winning the 2024 Republican nomination for president. Everything he’s done since he started making news for reopening Florida, in 2020, seems to be making clear to conservative evangelicals that he’ll back their agenda as well or better than Trump.
He really doesn’t care about anything, it seems, than trying to become the next president in 2024.
Almost Retired
A territorial dispute?!? An existential threat to a country and a culture is a fucking territorial dispute? What an asshole. He’ll probably describe it “essentially just a civil war” next. He must be stopped.
Dangerman
Assuming he’s not dead or in jail, Trump will Black Knight the Dude.
/holy grail
Roger Moore
@gene108:
I think DeSantis’s interests go further than that. He cares immensely about his own power beyond whatever it takes to win over right wing voters.
CaseyL
Too many voters went too long thinking engagement in electoral politics was optional, or an opportunity to shit on our own candidates, or to indulge 3rd party idiocy.
We wouldn’t be where we are now if people who damned well should have known better hadn’t sat out previous “most important elections in our lifetime,” with 2016 just being the most recent instance.
I could go down a whole list, starting in 1968, when “disaffected Democrats” sat on their thumbs and let the GOP gain power
(This includes me, BTW. In 1980, I voted for John Anderson. The first and last time I ever did anything like that, and will repent of it to my dying day.)
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Yup, Ukraine is just a territorial dispute; in much the same way the slavery was about forced migration, Jim Crow was just good god-fearing businessfolk conducting business the way they wanted, and Beyonce is a good singer.
Jackie
Statements/positions re Ukraine by DeStupid and TFG have to be making our NATO allies worried about continuing to support and supply Ukraine with the needed equipment to beat Russia into submission.
eta: IF either wins the presidency.
RaflW
I think we need to hammer away at Ron that his isolationism is cowardice. He wants to cut and run.
Why is Little D afraid to stand up to Putin?
Baud
Curious to see which way Lindsey Graham will genuflect.
cain
@gene108:
He’s going to get us into another war and lose.
RaflW
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: That, and as we see with travesties like the Supreme Court being packed with shitstains, all it takes is one bad election for the GQP to install all sorts of bad decisions and impacts.
There’s no doubt that the party which claims J6 was just a tourist jaunt escorted by the police will simply upended the entire election system to cement one-party rule.
cain
@Baud: he’ll genuflect the person who wins the primary. It’s why there is so much fierce competition – when the prize is Lindsay, why not? A finer bootlicker you’ll never encounter.
Splitting Image
Twenty years ago, they said “We need to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here”.
Now that we are in a situation where this is literally true, they are opposed to the idea. Go figure.
It seems to me that Carlson was trying to invoke Muhammad Ali there, when Ali refused to go to Vietnam on the grounds that no one in Vietnam ever called him a racial epithet. Someone should remind him that Ali lost his job and nearly went to prison for that decision, which was far more justifiable than Carlson’s.
MattF
Calling the Ukraine War a ‘territorial dispute’ is both ignorant and horrific. I’m just speechless.
Van Buren
That’s how Hitler described invasions of his neighbors.
RandomMonster
This is exactly DeSantis’s objective. He wants at least equal Russian ratfucking help as TFG.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@RandomMonster: Too bad for DeSantis, Russia is wasting vast resources on poorly arming cannon fodder.
gene108
@cain:
If there’s another 9/11 type emergency that springs up and gets conservatives braying for revenge on anybody and everybody, he sure will get us into a war.
Or if some small country gets under his thin skin, and he can’t let the perceived slight go.
RaflW
@MattF: As was pointed out by, I think, Jen Rubin, DeSantis’s position means Taiwan is well f*~ked if Ron is signaling the rising GOP position on geopolitics.
gene108
@Almost Retired:
Territorial disputes usually one aggressor country saying this part of another country belongs to us, because reasons.
Russia isn’t doing that. They have decided all of Ukraine belongs to them. That’s not a territorial dispute, it’s a war of conquest.
Michael Bersin
$100 to the first national “old news” reporter who asks that ahistorical boob Ron DeSantis (r) if he knows the meaning of the phrase “54 40, or fight!”.
To get the money from me they have to get an answer and follow up relentlessly until he melts down.
Kay
Great post
Beatrice Fitzpatrick
@Jerzy Russian: 😛😜
Betty Cracker
@RaflW: Maybe but DeFascist frequently works opposition to the “Chinese Communist* Party” into his talking points. I don’t think he’s a neo-isolationist America Firster as much as he’s a rank opportunist who correctly perceives that the GOP base is into Christianist ethnonationalism and sees figures like Putin and Orbán as the good guys.
*It’s a two-fer in Florida since fearmongering about communism never goes out of style here.
Pi
@RandomMonster: Putin knows TFG is the stupider useful idiot.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Maybe, but guaran-fucken-teed that only runs deep enough that DeSantis will be an enemy of China until he needs something from them.
Old Man Shadow
Republican voters sympathize with Russia because it’s what they want for America: a quasi-theocratic, authoritarian, white nationalist kleptocracy that punishes people for living outside of the “norm” defined by the conservative church, encourages traditional gender roles and toxic masculinity to the point of rampant abuse, and sounds and looks “tough”.
Republican voters don’t particularly care for democracy or freedom in the traditional sense. They redefine freedom to mean that you are now free to obey God (i.e. them).
RandomMonster
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
True, but helping collaborating Republican presidential candidates is, relatively speaking, low cost/high return compared to waging war.
kindness
The MSM is far too often an anchor around the neck of democracy. The really weird part is (especially the both sidesing) it’s all predicated as a business decision. They don’t want to alienate right wing crazy people.
I’ll use an analogy here. What if a portion of Americans thought it was a good idea to roll grandma off the cliff? Would the MSM be saying the same thing then? You think I’m kidding but if 27% of Americans thought that, the MSM would certainly be acting like it might be a valid position. They’ve already told us that.
Sister Golden Bear
CW: Suicide
Absolutely horrific news about a Saudi family that hired people to befriend their daughter who was living in the U.S. Those “friends” then manipulated and coerced her into detransitioning and returning to Saudi Arabia. There her parents psychologically abused her and continued forcibly detransitioning her until she died by suicide earlier this. The parents have continued misgender her in death — preferring to have a dead child than a live daughter. Eden’s suicide note is heartbreaking:
Full account about what happened.
This is what forced detransitioning looks like. This is what Republicans want to inflict on our trans kids — and trans adults.
#HerNameIsEden
*Hormone replacement therapy, i.e. estrogen.
Geminid
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Speaking of poorly armed cannon fodder, I heard a report this morning that “hundreds” of women prisoners have been taken from penal colonies in southern Russia, put on buses and transported to Russian-occupied Ukraine to be put into the fight. That sounds kind of crazy, but WTOP’s Pentagon correspondent said the reports are credible.
RandomMonster
@Pi:
True, but either will be useful after they win the primary.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
In truth, I’m mostly hoping Putin doesn’t make it to 2024.
Old Man Shadow
@Sister Golden Bear: You’re right. That is what they want. And they don’t particularly give a damn if their victims kill themselves or not. So long as they don’t have to look at their victims or live with them or grant them equal rights.
Cameron
Sassy Boots seems to think Florida is a microcosm of the USA for some of his pieces of authoritarian performance art, and I think he’s made a few serious miscalculations. There are a good many Russians, including my landlady and her husband, here,but that doesn’t mean there aren’t also a lot of Ukrainians or that the Russians are all Putin cheerleaders. I don’t believe he’ll find his fake neutrality shtick will play well locally, let alone nationally.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Curious how this all-powerful being isn’t available to speak but its personal preferences exactly comport with your needs and preferences.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@RandomMonster:
Yes. I agree.
Michael Bersin
By Desantis’ “belief” and logic the United States is justified in claiming British Columbia up to the southern extent of Russian North America (we did buy Alaska above 54 40, give or take a bit).
Blame Canada!
Redshift
The wingnut argument about it being a “territorial dispute” seems to be basically “Crimea used to be part of Russia, and about that whole invading the whole country? Lalalalala I can’t hear you!”
This isn’t the first explicit abandon Ukraine rhetoric from DeSantis; last month on Fox&Fiends, he said:
I was horrified, because “the borderlands” is the Russian term for Ukraine as the “little brother” that isn’t really a separate country, but it didn’t make as many waves because our political media aren’t sharp enough to pick up on things like that. You’d think being able to identify dog-whistles would be one skill that would be important to the profession…
matt
Have to admit, bankrolling the NRA really seems to have paid off for Russia in Republican support.
RaflW
@kindness: We’ve rolled 581,000+ people over age 75 off the Covid cliff in the past three years.
And the media is no longer even remotely interested in using masks, air filtration, or any social modifications to keep other older Americans safe. Not to mention people with immune challenges or chronic illnesses at any age.
Paul in KY
@RaflW: A good campaign commercial would be the most unassuming, sweet, trans girl or boy saying how DeSatanis is so gungho about ‘standing’ up to them and their nefarious rainbow hair but sure doesn’t want to stand up to Putin, etc. etc.
I can see a properly written and acted one of these really skewering the SOB.
Old Man Shadow
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: If God does exist, it’s going to be very awkward for them when they meet Her.
Redshift
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Originalism, but for everything, not just the Constitution!
Paul in KY
@cain: He makes Wormtongue seem like James Dean.
Old Man Shadow
@Redshift:
And Texas used to be a part of Mexico, so I’m sure they’d be okay if the Mexican army rolled in and annexed it back, right?
Paul in KY
@RandomMonster: I would assume his trusted minions (Satanawife maybe) is already negotiating with them.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Old Man Shadow: To me; god is everything that is, ever was, and ever will be. When I define god this way, I can be sure it exists. This is why I assign neuter pronouns.
What if god were all of us?
Redshift
@gene108:
See also Glenn Youngkin…
Paul in KY
@Sister Golden Bear: That poor little girl.
gvg
These idiot traitors actually think it can’t happen to them. They think it is safe to let stupid dictators loose to get more powerful, safe for them. They make lots of show about needing guns here to be safe and are too stupid to realize their local fears are foolish figments of their echo chambers but a rising Hitler or Stalin will use them and then kill them, and take their stuff. How can they be this stupid? Why haven’t they already self destructed? This is amazingly deluded. How did they pass middle school?
matt
@RaflW: GOP getting their ‘please hurry up and die’ elder policy without passing any bills.
Baud
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
He’d probably be a slob like all of us.
RaflW
Lindsey Graham has tweeted (with craven points for saying “those” and avoiding naming name)s.
“To those who believe that Russia’s unprovoked and barbaric invasion of Ukraine is not a priority for the United States – you are missing a lot.”
scav
@Michael Bersin: Well, for that matter, can’t Mexico invade the US? Lot of borderlands down there to bring back to their original cultural homelands. Mexico has — certainly had — doubts about how those large chunks of western territory suddenly ended up bespangly starred after large waves of unfettered foreign undocumented migration.
Paul in KY
@Baud: You could make a song about that…
Betty Cracker
Unlike Trump, DeSantis understands how political coalitions work, so if he wins the nomination, I expect he’ll lean into the anti-war angle on Ukraine and play up the threat of nuclear escalation. But since he’s in the GOP primary, he thinks the way to win is to try to be more mean, callous and extreme than Trump. I don’t know if he can pull it off since he has the personality of a bucket of wallpaper paste, but he’s trying.
Geminid
@Cameron: Isolationism was a strong strain within the Republican Party during the last century. The Second World War and the Cold War pushed Isolationism into the background, but these beliefs have made a comeback this century. I think that development was accelerated by Bush’s disastrous Iraq war. It discredited the Republican Internationalist establishment.
Depending on Ukrainian success on the battlefield this year, the Ukraine war may not be a big issue in the Republican primaries. It probably will be later this year though, when the $44 billion appropriated for military aid last December starts to run out and the Biden administration asks for more money.
This is one of many reasons Ukraine needs to break the current deadlock with successful offensive campaigns. They’ll probably start to move when the ground dries next month.
Matt McIrvin
@gene108: Think civil war. Republicans constantly talk about how the woke mob or the Democrats or whoever are trying to start a civil war. What they mean is, they want to start a civil war.
I think a lot about what it would be like for the US Air Force to start bombing American cities. They could end it in an hour by using nukes.
BenCisco 🇺🇸🎖️🖥️♦️
@RaflW: That’s the thing about jellyfish – no bones.
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: I am reluctant to engage in heightism, but DeSantis reminds me of Thomas Hobbes’ description of life in a state of nature: “nasty, brutish and short.”
gene108
@Michael Bersin:
DeSantis was a history major and taught history at a high school for a year, before going to law school.
He’s a lot of awful things, but I doubt he’s ignorant like Trump or Bush, Jr.
The Moar You Know
Smart move by DeSatan. Isolationism has always been a core GOP value; you’ll see Trump go this route as well.
During World War 2, Dems wanted to fight the Nazis. The Republicans wanted to put them in charge.
rikyrah
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
I feel you.
Cameron
@scav: Can’t Mexico invade us? Wingnuts tell me they already have.
Michael Bersin
@scav:
Well, Gadsden Purchase, Treaty of Mesilla in 1854 (for Southern Arizona). Any other stolen stuff is another matter.
UncleEbeneezer
@Redshift: “Territorial dispute” also prevents Ukraine joining the UN/Nato, iirc.
rikyrah
@gene108:
This is the truth. Which is why I take him seriously, even though I despise him. I’m clear about my enemies. And, I’m clear that what he’s done in Florida, he wants to take national.
As a Black woman, I say to that:
I think the phuck not.
Michael Bersin
@gene108:
Apparently, he’s also a baseball player. Morning Joe had fun with that this morning. If his history knowledge is as rusty as his throwing skills that would explain a lot.
Paul in KY
@gene108: He might try to play dumb though, just for political reasons.
Geminid
@Cameron: I used to work with a young, second generation Mexican American. A real bright kid who now makes good money as a masonry materials salesman. We were talking one day and I said that I had read of a plan whereby Mexicans would take over Texas again.
“I’ve got news for you,” John said. “We already have.”
Gin & Tonic
@UncleEbeneezer: Ukraine is a member of the UN.
gene108
@Geminid:
Isolationism was making a resurgence, in the 1990’s, among Republicans. Jesse Helms blocked U.S. funding to the U.N., while head of the Foreign Relations Committee, in 1999, because a large group of Republicans “wanted to get us out of the U.N.”
Bush, Jr. ran on a platform of no more nation building, in 2000.
Republican neo-cons weren’t the mainstream back then, but 9/11 happened and they jumped on the opportunity to advance their agenda of regime change in Iraq.
scav
@Michael Bersin: Seems like there was a lot of duress and invasion involved — cases could be made. And the areas certainly haven’t assimilated culturally. Whats with all this chili powder and corn pancakes?! Spiciest thing in any red-blooded heartland ‘mercan cupboard should be parsley or celery salt!!
Citizen_X
@scav: Actually, that’s a major reason Texas joined the US. Mexico invaded them some 4 or 5 times in the ten years they were independent. Texas couldn’t defend themselves, and had gone deep into debt in the attempt!
gene108
@Michael Bersin:
Eventual captain of the Yale baseball team. Played in the Little League World Series, when he was in middle school. Saw his slash-line while at Yale. He batted over .300.
He’s been much more athletic than me growing up, but he sure doesn’t show it now.
@Paul in KY:
I don’t know if he’ll play as dumb as Sen. John Kennedy or Rep. Masse, but he won’t be eagerly showing off his trivia skills or sharing anything about the books he reads.
Splitting Image
@Baud:
He once told Howard the Duck that this is in fact true.
scav
@Citizen_X: So White Texans unilaterally deciding what nation they wanted to be a part of and then not being able to stand up on their own two feet is a tradition.
UncleEbeneezer
@Gin & Tonic: NATO then? I remember reading that territorial disputes are an obstacle to joining.
Betty Cracker
@gene108:
And then went on to completely bungle TWO attempts at nation building during his disastrous presidency! I’d forgotten the no nation-building pledge, though in my defense, I guess I remembered it longer than BUSH did!
Captain C
@RandomMonster:
If he really wants this, he’ll go over to Moscow for a week or two and give them some really good kompromat. Maybe help them launder a few billion dollars too.
Frank McCormick
Betty, looking back, I’d have to say that every election in my lifetime was extremely important, it just wasn’t as blindingly obvious as it is now.
Some are now more obvious than others, with 1980 and 2010 particularly standing out. But even if some on the Left don’t see the value in incrementalism, the Federalist Society certainly demonstrated its power.
Every election for every office counts.
MisterDancer
Sister Golden Bear pointed to this truth. We can’t afford to ignore DeSantis, ad those we enable. We’re so used to mocking them, we forget there’s a point beyond which Authoritarians cannot be engaged, much less defeated, by cracking jokes alone.
We cannot trust DeSantis to implode. Too many real people are being hurt, right fuckin’ now, by his actions and the actions he helps encourage in other states. And there’s no clear signs he can’t be POTUS, despite the personality gap and so forth.
I don’t trust any of that to stop Fascism.
Do you?
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: In Dubya’s defense it was more ‘nation destroying’ than ‘nation building’.
JohnC
Can you say shameless flip-flop? DeSantis sang a different tune talking to Bill Bennett in 2015.
Audio: “We in the Congress have been urging the president, I’ve been, to provide arms to Ukraine. They want to fight their good fight. They’re not asking us to fight it for them.”
He also called for giving Ukraine offensive and defensive weapons.
James E Powell
They all are. Certainly if 2000 & 2016 had gone our way, the intensity might be lower. I feel like we need at least three in a row in order to change the Beltway’s “wired for Republicans” tendencies.
Jeffro
I’d think the “Ron D of 2014” (who wanted to send weapons to Ukraine after Russia ‘annexed’ part of it) vs “Ron D of 2023” ads would write themselves.
“What changed, Ron?”
“What changed?”
JustRuss
@The Moar You Know: Well, to be fair, Hitler never called me a racist or threatened to get me fired. So why, exactly, did we go to war with him?
Paul in KY
@JustRuss: Use his voice too imploring the arms be sent. Would make for some great anti-Satanis commercials.
billcinsd
@Citizen_X: Also, Mexico was going to outlaw/curtail slavery and the white slavers in Texas did not want to be a part of that
billcinsd
@JustRuss: He declared war on us
Betty Cracker
David Frum, ex-Republican, writes the following in The Atlantic:
I hope Frum is right about extremism making a DeSantis candidacy untenable in the general election absent a deus ex machina. But with short voter attention spans and a giant Beltway media thumb on the scales, I wouldn’t count on it.
Ruckus
@Pi:
SFB is the stupider idiot, and is useful to vlad as long as the $1.95 per year that he’s willing to pay SFB is enough. And it likely is. Now DumbSanta is likely going to cost slightly more but is rather cheap and desperate as well so I’m still thinking less than$3.00.
Manyakitty
@Betty Cracker: he’s got a strong appeal to the soulless fucking ghoul set, and they seem to get louder every day.
KayInMD (formerly Kay (not the front-pager))
He’s a sniveling, cowardly Neville Chamberlain looking to appease Putin. It wouldn’t turn out any better than when first Chamberlain appeased Hitler.
He should be followed on all of his campaign stops by a tracker wearing a top hat and carrying a tightly furled black umbrella.
J R in WV
@Sister Golden Bear:
So sorry for the poor girl in Saudi Arabia. Can’t bear to read the details at all. Thanks for the info, tho.
lowtechcyclist
Hell, it’s even deeper than that.
If there was ever a war between good and evil in my lifetime, this war is it. Anyone who can’t tell who’s good and who’s evil in this war is someone I don’t have to waste my time listening to.
People, including a shitload of Republicans, used to quote the old expression that “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing.” In fact, I’m sure a bunch of them used that line to justify our invasion of Iraq twenty years ago.
And here, either they’re denying that it’s a war between good and evil, or they admit that it is, but say it’s none of our beeswax anyway, they’re cool with us doing nothing and letting evil triumph.
Paul in KY
@lowtechcyclist: Well said.
J R in WV
@billcinsd:
THIS !!!
Texas is the only state to secede twice in defense of chattel slavery of black people. Now they talk about doing it again !! Evil through and through.