And here we are. They want to control us at any cost.
If they kill us at the same time, is that a bonus? Or just the cost of doing business?
Women in states with abortion bans are nearly three times more likely to die during pregnancy, childbirth or soon after giving birth. Read that sentence again. https://t.co/x7X5n8reZ9
— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) March 21, 2023
From the article linked in the tweet:
Women in states with abortion bans are nearly three times more likely to die during pregnancy, childbirth or soon after giving birth, according to a report from the Gender Equity Policy Institute shared first with Axios.
The big picture: The U.S. has the highest maternal mortality rate among developed nations, and government officials and health experts are concerned that conditions will worsen now that a federal right to abortion has been struck down.
The report authors wrote that “people in banned and restrictive states have worse outcomes than their counterparts in supportive states,” adding that anti-abortion states “are less likely to enact policies, like paid parental leave, which have been shown to improve outcomes for new parents and babies.”
These conditions, the report says are “more precarious” for the six in 10 women (59%) live in states that “ban or restrict abortion care and other reproductive health care.”
Details: The Gender Equity Policy Institute divided states into three groups — supportive of abortion access, restrictive and banned — and compared data on reproductive health outcomes between 2015 and 2021.
29 states were in the “banned” and “restrictive categories” and 21 states and the District of Columbia were in the “supportive” category.
By the numbers: The report found that maternal mortality rates in states with bans was “significantly higher” than in supportive states. In 2018, the maternal mortality rate in banned states was nearly two times higher than in supportive states, by 2021, it was 2.4 times higher.
Maternal mortality weighed heaviest on women of color: Native American women’s maternal mortality rates were 4.5 times higher than those of white women and Black women’s rates were 2.6 times the rate of white women.
Of note: The report also found that infants born in states with abortion bans were 30% more likely to die than those in supportive states.
I don’t know how we beat this stuff back, but we have to find a way to do it.
Open thread.
DOJ To Get Corcoran Documents!
schrodingers_cat
Get women you know (and are open to persuasion) and the men in their life to stop voting for the Republican
WaterGirl
After the tension of the legal stuff today, I thought we could use a lighthearted post.
In an alternate universe, I thought it important to get this information out there.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Yeah, the solution is simple. The execution is what’s difficult.
CaseyL
Greater maternal and infant mortality among certain demographic groups is a feature, not a bug, to GOP politicians and voters alike.
Justice Gorsuch has a small, tiny soft spot for Native Americans, and may be approachable on that basis.
Other than that, I don’t see a solution.
Mallard Filmore
Maybe if the man who gave a woman a fatal pregnancy faced the death penalty, it would bring back abortions.
Alison Rose
The problem is that the people pushing these bans do not give a single shit if pregnant people die. They simply don’t. If you die from an unsafe abortion, that’s your fault for being a dumb slut. If you die from pregnancy complications, that’s the reasonable price you pay for performing your duty as a uterus-owner. If you die from problems during birth, well we got a living baby out of you, so that’s good enough. They don’t care if people die. I appreciate HRC and others for trying to wake people up, but the politicians who enact things like this prefer to remain asleep. All the easier not to hear the dying.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I talked to my godmother yesterday. Nicest person you could ever want to meet.
She is conservative, very Catholic, and Republican.
She thinks abortion is murder no matter what. A 10-year-old girl who is raped and gets pregnant? That’s awful, but abortion is murder, and “there are people who can help her”.
Sigh.
edit: She voted for Trump but didn’t like who he turned out to be. IF 2024 was a rematch of Trump vs. Biden, she would not vote. She thinks DeSantis is okay, though
She wishes Biden was a Republican because he’s a good man and he’s charming.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
The fanatical position is the most principled. But it’s very extreme.
Ksmiami
@WaterGirl: you can’t be nice and a forced birther. Sorry, maybe you can get a different god mother who isn’t blinded by dumb corrupt faith
sab
Hard to do this without every affected surviving woman (or her family, if she doesn’t survive) spilling their emotional guts and baring their sould in public. Really appalling and unfair, but how else?
I am 69. When I was 18 and had an internship in Mississippi? A woman I worked under and deeply admired had had a difficult pregnancy. She lost the baby, got sepsis and lost all her hair also, and was dealing with the news that the doctors felt that any future pregnancy would be difficult and dangerous and a bad idea.
At the time that just seemed unfair and very sad. I didn’t realize how medically unneccessary her situation was.
My doctor dad in Ohio thought that every city in Ohio had its competent doctor that other doctors knew about who could do a safe D & C without involving authorities. He assumed that Mississippi did not.
At the time I just took it for granted as bad things happen. 50 years later with a lot more information and experience I am just steaming again that bad things that don’t need to happen do because we allow them to be legislated.
smith
I think that there should be a requirement that a legislator who voted for a no-exceptions abortion ban be designated to explain to the dying woman’s existing kids why Mommy has to die.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: The thing is — and I know my view of this is not a popular one — but her stance is less morally repugnant to me. Not because I agree with forcing rape victims to carry the pregnancy, obviously I do not.
But if someone does truly believe that abortion is murder, then they should believe it is murder in any circumstance. When people say “I’m against abortion, except for rape victims” what they’re saying is, “I’ll only allow good people to get abortions, but not you dumb whores who got pregnant because of your own choices”. Rape victims “earned” an abortion by not being sinful, everyone else who wants one can fuck off and carry to term. When exceptions are allowed, it proves that they don’t really think it’s murder, and that abortion bans are about punishing people they deem immoral, not about saving the lives of fetuses.
I’m against the death penalty, and I’m against it in every single case, every scenario. Even the worst of the worst, even people we are 1000% certain are guilty of horrific crimes. I’m against it because I believe that the state should not have the right to take someone’s life as punishment. If I said, “I’m against the death penalty, except for these few people who were extra bad” then it would undercut the first part of that sentence. I wouldn’t actually be against it if I were willing to allow it in certain circumstances.
Yes, it is absolutely disgusting to say that rape victims, including children, have to bear a child. But when I hear someone say they’re okay with rape exceptions in abortion bans, all I hear is hateful hypocrisy and a barely-disguised loathing for anyone who doesn’t comport themselves according to their own standards of sexual behavior.
Mallard Filmore
@WaterGirl:
Is there a soul before there is brain activity? If so, that complicates the marker of Death at the other end of life.
Well, not really. They will make up rules to protect their view as they go along. Much like I did as a 3yo when I made up rules to keep the monsters away when going down a spooky hall to pee in the middle of the night.
Dan B
@WaterGirl: Is every egg that is not fertilized manslaughter or human sacrifice? Is every child that is raped a slut? The regulation and moral policing of sexuality is horrifying
Do I seem angry?
scav
Maternal death is God’s way of rewarding pious Christian men with additional sex partners.
Scout211
I peruse the national news on abortion rights periodically and I just saw this from Tennessee.
It’s not the best news, which would be a repeal of that anti-abortion law. But it’s a teensy tiny step back in the right direction. And maybe this is how some of these red states can slowly pull back from the anti-abortion bans.
Maybe.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: I am becoming an obnoxious ranter with my extremely Catholic, fertile and lucky nieces in law.
My step-son’s also Catholic and less lucky in pregnancy partner is a lot louder ranter than me.
If you have had five miscarriages with medically necessary D&Cs to save your life and your health, you really don’t care what other people think of God’s plans for fetuses. He didn’t save hers, nor does he save the other 25% of pregnancies ending in miscarriage.
From men a lot of it is misogyny. From other women it is ignorance and deliberate obtuseness
ETA The ignorance we can work on ( see me at 18). The deliberate obtuseness is a different problem.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: True but we really don’t need to convince a lot of people.
In the Indian context the question I am puzzling over the popularity of the RSS ideology. They have been around for almost a century but they never won too many seats even when the Muslim League was sweeping the polls in pre-independence India.
Is it the ideology that is popular or is it a cult of personality around Modi, is something I haven’t been able to figure out.
OGLiberal
My wife and I saw recent numbers for all states and were shocked at how high the rates are in our state, NJ. Per this NJ is the fourth worse, higher than places like Arkansas and Alabama. We’re still trying to figure why.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/maternal-mortality-rate-by-state
The only thing I saw consistently mentioned was the the NJ numbers were considerably high among minorities and lack of awareness/education. (Not the three Rs but about what to do and note to do when you’re pregnant, what puts you risk, resources available, etc)
eclare
@Alison Rose: I have always agreed with your reasoning. Like you said, exceptions introduce a set of standards for who “deserves” an abortion.
And the sluts obviously don’t.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
There’s something about this period in history that is causing Volk ideologies to be popular. Could be the rapid pace of change.
Suzanne
@WaterGirl:
Yes, they’re the fine people at Planned Parenthood.
Baud
@OGLiberal:
That is something. NJ had a high immigrant population, no? I wonder if that contributes.
Baud
@OGLiberal:
From your link.
Liberal hellhole.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl:
She’s nice to you. But anyone who wants to compel a 10-yo rape victim to carry her rapist’s child to term is evil. Just fucking evil. In my view, anyone who truly believed something like that would rape a child themselves if they thought they could get away with it. Certainly anyone who said that about a child could never place any genuine value on the life of a child not their own.
eclare
@Scout211: There must have been an exodus of doctors (or threatened exodus) in TN for the legislature to pass this. We will see what the governor does. He seems like a fanatical true believer.
gene108
There’s no rational way to deal with irrational fanaticism, which is what the anti-abortion crowd is.
I don’t know how to convince people Republicans are bad for you. There’s no amount of evidence that makes a dent in most Republican voters minds.
Scout211
And this news in Wyoming. The legal process is slow and frustrating but abortion rights groups are filing these lawsuits regularly.
Also in Wyoming
Quinerly
@Citizen Alan:
Totally agree. Evil.
Dan B
@Suzanne: How can a ten year old safely give birth? As if the rape was not enough horror.
scav
@Citizen Alan: Clearly, to their way of thinking, God wanted that child, God inspired that rapist, They would be performing their Lord’s work by raping.
kindness
We??? I’m horrified how things have changed in red states but I live in California. Other than donate money (which I do) I can’t do anything to affect policy in those red states. I’m not about to shoulder the responsibility of what goes on in those states. I help by donating to the right causes (medical & humanitarian) and elections but I am shut out of their policymaking.
Kay
@Scout211:
The exceptions don’t mean anything:
They know women will die with or without the exceptions so they’re putting in “exceptions” that no woman ever qualifies for to cover their asses.
gene108
@OGLiberal:
Theres a lot of income disparity in NJ. Camden, Trenton, Newark, and even some southern counties like Cumberland, are strikingly poorer than wealthier parts of the state. I think that has a lot to do with it.
Alison Rose
@Dan B: They often can’t. Doctors have pointed out that just because a child has started menstruating doesn’t mean the rest of their body is ready for pregnancy and birth. But for all their professed concern about TEH CHILDREN, the GOP doesn’t actually care.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Could be. My grandparents generation who came of age during the interwar period didn’t need BJP’s predecessors to give them a certificate that they were good Hindus. And saw through their BS more easily.
I have seen Tiktok videos of kids with American accents spouting RSS gibberish about the caste system.
Suzanne
@scav:
Exactly right.
They do not care if women die, as long as they get babies out of it.
It seems to have never occurred to the social conservatives that they could incentivize having children. I realize that that would entail support. But that’s how that shit goes.
Suzanne
@Dan B:
She cannot.
WaterGirl
@Dan B: Yes, and rightfully so. I was tempted to get into the discussion of when life begins but decided there was no point.
I am more forgiving of my godmother for these views than I am of my sister. She’s my only connection to my parents and to their generation
She’s 80-something and she just lost her son to brain cancer a month ago.
Kay
You really see how women are not valued in the US when you realize these absolutely appalling maternal and infant stats have been this low for decades and yet there has never been a President or member of Congress who made it a signature issue or priority.
I mean, come on. It’s very doable. These are not complex medical issues. They’re primarily young women who are generally in good health. Interventions would not have to be costly or even creative – it’s standard health care. The biggest issue is not even pregnancy- the women and children die in the year after pregnancy because we have no after care or support for them. The postpartum year is counted in these surveys.
The politician could actually succeed at this! He or she could say “I fixed the problem- we now have a maternal and infant survival rate that is in the top three instead of being 15th” . It’s just… no one wants to.
Ohio Mom
@WaterGirl: That is always the conundrum. To skip right to Goodwin, Nazis went home after a long day at work being Nazis, kissed their wives and bounced their little ones on the of knees.
Your godmother is lovely to you, I don’t doubt that for a second. But she also has a thoroughly rotten side.
It’s a very personal thing, how each of us reconciles ourselves to knowing the people we love aren’t who we would want them to be. Sometimes we can’t and we cut off contact, sometimes we compartmentalize and weep.
schrodingers_cat
@sab: Good for you. Its difficult but it is important to have these conversations I think.
sab
@Kay: We could be at the top, but choose No. I didn’t realize that at eighteen. Now I do. I rant on, but I don’t know if it helps.
I don’t want to kill babies. I want to save mothers and their hopes for future babies.
Brachiator
This is not surprising, but I didn’t expect the data to be so obviously clear that anti-abortion zealotry puts women’s lives at risk.
I wonder about the women who support abortion bans, especially those who believed that only underserving poor and nonwhite women would be affected. We are seeing that anti-abortion laws, and the dismissal of science, results in restrictions on medical care available to women. The right wing love their death cults.
So much for the idea that anti-abortion zealots are “protecting babies.”
NotMax
@gene108
Yuppers. NJ governor’s mansion is in tony Princeton, not grubby Trenton.
gene108
@Kay:
The salient point of healthcare in the U.S. is the major conservative party feels we provide too many benefits to people regarding healthcare. Experts know how to do reduce maternal mortality rates, but I don’t see any expansion of healthcare access overcoming Republican obstruction in Congress.
sab
@Kay: How many ten year olds raped by their uncle or close relative will call a timely rape? How many will be believed? Nearly zero. Blows the whole family apart, and even little ones recoginize those dynamics.
It also shouldn’t matter because anyone under about 16 was raped. Statutory rape is still rape, and statutory rape of the younger ones is much worse than statutory. Afraid to or unable to cry rape.
Ohio Mom
@Dan B: A ten year old would have to have a Caesarian section.
Another Scott
@Mallard Filmore: +1
But worse than that, you know that their fancy professional business suits are an abomination and explicitly forbidden in Leviticus 19:19, but they don’t care.
“Oh, but that’s the Old Testament. Jesus said we don’t have to follow that anymore.”
“Ok, then what about the story of Genesis and Noah’s flood and …” “And what exactly did Jesus say about abortion, anyway??”
[ sigh ]
Cheers,
Scott.
Dan B
@Ohio Mom: Invasive surgery in addition to rape and pregnancy far too young. Failure to see the horror is almost incomorehensible.
sab
@Ohio Mom: Not the least bit intrusive for a child, so that is okay.
///
Years ago I had a friend whose fifteen year old had a baby. The big fight three years later was “No you cannot take your toddler off to college with you.” RWNJs all think these kids will be adoptable.
No, they will be raised by our side. Their families might be upset, but still want them.
Dopey-o
Carl Jung wrote that people who are oh-so-sentimental are hiding their sadistic impulses. When I see a bookcase full of those saccharine porcelain figurines, I know to probe for cruelty.
Dan B
@Another Scott: What does the Bible say about when a soul inhabits a baby?
First breath.
Mai Naem mobile
@schrodingers_cat: i don’t follow Indian politics that much so I can’t get into the weeds on this with you but from what I’ve read the Congress Party isn’t exactly providing any decent opposition to Modi. I liken Modi to be a smarter Karzai(corrupt,charismatic+looks good with international folks) but more of a thug.
sab
@Dan B: I am more conservative: quickening. But that is long long past two cells together in the uterus.
We are a free religion country so the Bible shouldn’t matter although I consult it. That’s just me and shouldn’t be the government.
AlaskaReader
The fact that there is no similar mass movement to dismantle all the IVF clinics is proof all those ‘no exception’ true believers have been put up to their so-called beliefs and have been simply manipulated by political forces.
IVF is the ‘exception’ they do willingly make while claiming not to make exceptions.
Kay
@gene108:
Nope. That doesn’t explain it. The US has among the highest rates for cancer screenings, knee and hip replacements and heart surgery. We’re Number One (or two or three) on a lot of measures. We’ll definitely spend some money on “health care”! We just won’t spend any on pregnant women and babies.
It feels deliberate to me. Either that or just an astonishing…error, don’t you think? We “got” that cancer screenings are good and pay for more of them than almost any other country but we somehow didn’t notice young women are dying the year they are pregnant and the year after? Hmmm. THAT’S odd.
gene108
@NotMax:
NJ never had an official governors mansion until the 20th century. The current governor’s mansion was built in 1835, and when the builder Charles Olden became governor in 1860, he used his home as the governor’s residence.
Ownership changed hands several times, until it was sold to the state in 1966 and was first used as the official governor’s residence in 1981.
Most governors, since then, only resided their part-time or use/used their private residence and used the mansion for state events.
It’s as much a historical building as an actual governor’s residence.
sab
@Kay: We think all those babies and moms dying are Black. We are wrong, but I don’t care if we are. The whole thought process is wrong.
I am not willing to mirror their thinking that it’s okay if a bunch of Appalachian babies die if urban Black babies do. Please take care of them all. They are babies with families who love them.
Mai Naem mobile
@Kay: don’t forget its Texas so not only won’t she get the way safer abortion she needs but she’ll come out with a bigger hospital bill that ‘prolifer’ Abbott isn’t going to help her pay for. And let’s not even go into not being able to go back to work because you’re weaker physically from what you’ve just been through medically.
gene108
@Kay:
Maybe the fact the people most disproportionately impacted by lack prenatal and post-natal care are poor black, Hispanic, and Native American women has something to do with it?
scav
@gene108: We’ve also left a lot to the free market. A lot of the factors influencing these sorts of mortality aren’t sexy, high-value, patentable health intervention profit-centers. No way to milk insurers either so why would hospitals bother?
cain
@Scout211: if the child is autistic or has severe physical issues – I’m assuming that this law that forces a mother to bring it to term will also force the father to support said child?
If the father finds out that the child is goign to be a money sink – he has no option to not provide care, correct? I think if we are going to have these laws – then we’re going to make sure that the man who did the deed is 200% in otherwise the mother should be able to file felony charges.
The Lodger
@NotMax: Huh. I grew up on the East Coast and I was 30 before I realized “tony” could be an adjective.
Another Scott
@Alison Rose: You express that view well.
I would counter that someone who “truly believes” that abortion is murder should have as much sway on the fundamental rights of other adults as someone who truly believes that Elvis is still alive.
(repost) Throughline – The Physicians Campaign:
Cranks at the AMA didn’t want midwives taking their business.
These policy battles were, and remain, about control over women. White women, who should know their place is to stay home and have babies. Punching down on women who had the audacity to provide services to other women…
Too many people who are willing to impose their views about “protecting innocent life” on women’s medical care and reproductive decisions have no problem at all with children and innocent adults being tortured or gunned-down by police. Their absolutism about protecting life doesn’t apply, there.
People who want to have sincerely held religious beliefs can do that all day and all night long if they want. First Amendment.
They have no right to impose their religious views on others.
Thanks.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
cain
@Citizen Alan: The thing is – the old testament is full of babies being killed or aborted. How come you ignore that? but suddenly, the old testament when it comes to LBGTQ+ ?
It isn’t even about religion – everything is used as a way to ban stuff that makes them uncomfortable.
Why does God allow miscarriages if that’s the case? In those cases, they suddenly don’t know God’s plan.
Roger Moore
@sab:
I suspect that “deliberate obtuseness” is a form of denial. They deny reality because they don’t want to believe those bad things could happen to them.
Kay
@gene108:
Getting warmer!
The only measure we do worse on than care for pregnant women and children is suicide, and that’s only super high because we’re awash, drowning, in guns.
The United States is just not a great place for women. It’s not bad! It’s not Afghanistan or Russia! But it’s “not good”.
schrodingers_cat
@Mai Naem mobile: It is easy to take potshots at the opposition that’s what I see in the Indian media and the so called intellectuals. Its like our MSM blaming Democrats for Republican behavior.
The relentless attacks on Rahul Gandhi for existing show that BJP is afraid of him. Several ministers spend their entire day trolling Rahul Gandhi. Another opposition leader they attack is Tejaswi Yadav.
I follow Congress, and Janata Dal and Shiv Sena, NCP handles. They have been raising the issue of Adani and Modi’s cozy relationship and demanding a Joint Parliamentary Commission be appointed to investigate Adani’s sweetheart deals.
Follow Jairam Ramesh on Twitter if you are interested.
BJP has also weaponized the government, election commission, a good portion of the judiciary etc.
When they lose, they buy MLAs like in Maharashtra. BJP is no longer a regular political party.
Modi was floundering in Gujarat in 2002 before the pogrom he conducted. That is the reason of his enduring popularity.
sab
@Roger Moore: God will protect them, until he doesn’t.
And I believe in God. I just don’t think he demands idiocy.
Brachiator
@Alison Rose:
Even if you believe this extreme view, not all killing is murder. For example, justifiable homicide.
And to rationalize prohibiting abortion in cases of rape, incest and sex with children, you allow a crime to be committed against a woman. How is this fair or just?
And there are clear and medically recognized situations where abortion is necessary to preserve or protect the life of the woman. It is pointless, wrong, and an evil to say that you are “murdering” a baby to save the woman’s life.
Anti-abortionists misuse language to try to justify their actions.
Kay
@gene108:
I knew a national child care iniative would never pass because it primarily benefits women. I knew it was DOA. People said it! “Show how it benefits MEN if you want SUPPORT!”
Which I’m wiling to do. I’ll play that game, although it sucks. But it was more important NOT to help women than it was to help men with childcare.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
The thing about California is that we decided it was something that needed fixing rather than just an inevitable state of the world. It’s one of the many, many problems facing our country and our world where the solution is within our grasp, and the hard part is overcoming inertia to start implementing it.
cain
@Another Scott:
Am I reading this right? I think it just said that you can’t have tattoos? No eating of live flesh either. Looks like you shouldn’t be clean shaven either.
Roger Moore
@Alison Rose:
GQP concern for THE CHILDREN is exactly like their concern for THE TROOPS. They only care about them as props for their political plans, not as actual human beings.
sab
@Kay: My niece just killed herself last week. With a gun. Left her dead body for her twentyish son to find.
She had checked herself into a psychiatric set up a couple of weeks before. Her brother in law had had custody of the gun. The therapist suggested she would feel safer with the gun in house, so he returned it,but under lock and key. Therapist said she wanted the key, so he returned the key. Next week she was dead. Seems obvious that she was in favor of the bad choices made. Of course she was. She wqs suicidal, and the whole deck was stacked against rocovery.
If you are unhappy, please if you love your family get rid of your fucking gun.
I am not sure the therapist had a legal choice (morals, professional opinion and legal duty are at cross-purposes a lot in Ohio currently.) It was her gun that she had a legal right to access.
So now she is dead. Should a send a check to my closest Republican legislator. Good job, Asshole.
cain
@sab: All you need is to have a census and show that white babies are dying more than black babies thanks to these laws.
Kay
@sab:
The stats are appallingly bad for white women too. The only reason they look slightly better against AA women is because AA women stats are worse.
A big part of the problem is that medical providers don’t listen to women or take their self-reporting seriously. They don’t believe women when women tell them they “can’t breathe” or “something is wrong”. They have actual training on it now- my daughter takes it. They are learning to treat women like they do men in a medical environment.
They have to have special training or the assumption is women are all idiots or liars. It’s the bedrock thinking behind anti chice too. All women are bad and liars and should suffer.
NotMax
@cain
Tattoos are verboten on burials in Orthodox Jewish cemeteries.
sab
@Kay: Appalachian women might as well be Black in Republican eyes. I agree from the other side. They should all matter.
Kay
@sab:
I was blown away when I read that. That pregnant women are in US health care facilities telling people they “can’t breathe” and instead of being believed they are subject to this whole “are they LYING? EXAGGERATING?” She can’t fucking breathe! That’s what she said! Hop to it!
cain
@sab: JFC – so sorry to hear this. Fuck this country and its love for guns.
Another Scott
@cain: Yup.
Don’t get near those icky wimmen, either.
Leviticus 15:19-30:
The guys today who want to monitor school kids menstrual cycles are just being godly, you see. Gotta keep those unclean kids away from the clean ones…
Grr…,
Scott.
Gretchen
@OGLiberal: I have a relative in Staten Island. She graduated from nursing school a year ago and got her first job in New Jersey. According to her, NY hospitals won’t hire without experience. The minute her first year was over, she got a much better paying job in Manhattan. Better pay might be part of the explanation.
Kay
And anti choicers love the suffering. They love these stories:
They believe women should suffer. At their political events a high point is where women tell stories of mothers dying or being handicapped permanently in childbirth to rapturous admiration. The more suffering by women the better.
They’re getting to heaven by standing on the dead bodies of other women.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
This. The whole core argument behind all opposition to abortion is that the fetus (or embryo, or zygote) has more rights than the person pregnant with it. This is why, IMO, it’s a terrible idea to waste time arguing about when exactly a fetus is viable. It’s implicitly conceding the anti-abortion point of view, that at some point in pregnancy the rights of the baby-to-be are more important than the pregnant person.
TriassicSands
I’m not being facetious, but given that audience, I can’t imagine any way to get that done. It’s not like logic, rationality, common sense, or an appeal to preserve democracy will accomplish anything. As some one who has spent my life discussing politics with others and frequently, in the past, managing to get people were going to vote Republican to change their votes, that is virtually impossible now. In most cases, such people won’t even agree to discuss it.
I believe that the critical problem facing the U.S. is the abysmal quality of our electorate. Stupidity, ignorance, often willful, and disengagement are what is behind the GOP’s successes today. I include racism and other forms of bigotry under stupidity and ignorance.
I’m not being facetious, but given that audience, I can’t imagine any way to get that done. It’s not like logic, rationality, common sense, or an appeal to preserve democracy will accomplish anything. As some one who has spent my life discussing politics with others and frequently, in the past, managing to get people were going to vote Republican to change their votes, that is virtually impossible now. In most cases, such people won’t even agree to discuss it.
I believe that the critical problem facing the U.S. is the abysmal quality of our electorate. Stupidity, ignorance, often willful, and disengagement are what is behind the GOP’s successes today. I include racism and other forms of bigotry under stupidity and ignorance.
No, we don’t have to convince that many people, but the receptive audience is far smaller than the number of people we need to convince. Some, not enough probably, will get there on their own, but with the current state of the country, the idea of Republicans being receptive is simply unrealistic. That shouldn’t stop people from trying.
Princess
I have to say…I know some of these nice white women who say they vote on abortion and abortion alone and will never vote for Democrats because of it. For a lot of them, it’s a cover. It’s the reason they feel justified in their vote, the reason they can say out loud. But if it weren’t for abortion they’d still vote GOP. Because of race.
But I know other white women who hate abortion and would agree it is always morally wrong for them, who regularly vote Dem. The way to peel more of that kind of person off from the GOP is to focus on maternal death and on criminalization. I don’t think calling pro-life “forced birth” is helpful. I think calling them pro-criminalization will be. You can tell these women they can be pro-life yet anti-criminalization.
Brachiator
@NotMax:
I thought that this “rule” had been quietly set aside. There are people with non-voluntary tattoos, for example.
NotMax
Worser and worser.
TriassicSands
@Another Scott:
The Bible? The go-to source for all our health care needs.
I wonder if “God” has changed his mind, since every word of the Bible is the inspired word of the big guy, or if he’s followed science and changed his mind over the years. If so, he must have been amazed when he discovered that the Earth revolves around the Sun. And bats are not birds. And it isn’t necessary to stone your kids for being disobedient.
Question: How did being “stubborn and rebellious” morph into being a “a glutton and a drunkard.”
Fear: Obviously, the ideal basis for a humane and decent society.
Ohio Mom
@cain: There is no prenatal test for autism, no one (yet) has identified the genetics. For various reasons, one of them being that there are many different autisms with their own etiologies, I wouldn’t bet on an accurate genetic test ever being developed even though there are scientists working on this.
You only discover your child is autistic when they miss their developmental milestones and certain patterns become clear, the earliest at age 2, often later (Ohio Son was not diagnosed until he was three and a half, and only that early because I made a fuss). There are other disabilities that also only become identifiable after birth.
Now there are disabilities that can be identified before birth, especially physical anomalies, through sonograms. The prognosis for these fetuses can vary widely, at one end of the continuum dying soon after birth, and at the other, living productive and long lives.
Down Syndrome is well known as being able to be identified early in pregnancy through genetic testing but I don’t think every pregnancy is tested, at least they weren’t back in my day, only older pregnant women were tested. And again, there is a range of outcomes for babies born with DS, though I believe the majority of pregnancies identified with DS are aborted, or used to be in the US.
Finally, the main financial supports for families with disabled children are Medicaid and Social Security and I don’t need to point out here that the Republicans against abortion are also dead set against those programs as well.
Gretchen
@Kay: the assumption is that doctors are liars also. I have heard many legislators say they can’t make a health exemption because the doctor will just lie about her health being in danger.
Gretchen
@sab: that’s terrible. I’m so sorry.
Gretchen
@Another Scott: there was a really good book by a guy who decided to follow every rule of the Old Testament literally for a year. His (somewhat unsupportive) menstruating wife sat on every surface of their apartment, including the toddler chairs, so he had to sit on the floor. He also had trouble with the admonition to stone adulterers. He found an admitted adulterer, but would the guy agree to have stones thrown at him? Much recommended. https://www.amazon.com/Year-Living-Biblically-Literally-Possible/dp/0743291484
Ohio Mom
@cain: This verse (is verse the correct word?) is why ultraorthodox men have beards and long sideburns (the sideburns are usually curled to make it clear the “corners of the beard” have not been “marred.”) And as NotMax points out, bodies being prepared for an Orthodox burial can not have tattoos.
sab
@Kay: I cannot believe it even I know it is true. I am old and not pregnant. But I do know I have a bad heart and the surgical intervention. to prove it.
It is still kind of unsettling when I say I feel short of breath and my woman doctor sits up looking startled. My male doctors always sort of acted like “whatever..” With women doctors I want to apologize. “This isn’t urgent now. I just wanted you to know it is a mild symptom that might get worse.” I am absolutely not used to people taking my medical issues seriously. I had to collapse on the kitchen floor first before anyone believed I felt unwell.
Mai Naem mobile
@schrodingers_cat: My SIL who is not a Modi supporter sent me a couple of clips of Rahul Gandhi stumbling at a speech and basically looking dumb. I think Modi incorrectly gets credit for India’s economy(the bad stuff gets blamed on COVID.) As long as the economy is good, people will give a leader a pass on a lot of stuff.
Kay
@sab:
Well, they get training in it now- racial disparities, how not to ignore the health complaints of women who are overweight and just tell them to lose weight and then they almost die of undiagnosed uterine cancer, that sort of thing. You know, “woke” training. Which is evil.
Another Scott
@Gretchen: :-)
Thanks for the pointer!
Cheers,
Scott.
Gretchen
@Another Scott: I hope you enjoy it. I thought it was pretty funny.
Gretchen
@Kay: Serena Williams was dismissed despite being a wealthy, famous woman with a history of blood clots: https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/11/16879984/serena-williams-childbirth-scare-black-women
@Kay:
Mai Naem mobile
I got into it with a Trumper woman acquaintance during the 2022 election. This was when the Ohio case was in the news. She mentioned that she was against abortion so I told her I wasn’t for forcing a 10 year old rape victim to give birth. She said ofcourse she wasn’t either. And I told her this isn’t about abortion, its about control over women. I doubt its going to get her to change her vote but the expression on her face was like a ‘ding,ding,ding the penny has dropped’ moment.
Another Scott
@TriassicSands:
:-)
I read a book years ago called “Who Wrote the Bible?” that addresses questions like these. (No, it wasn’t Moses.)
The book argues that the famous bible stories are often melding of 2 or more older stories that were handed down by 2 or more older factions. Kinda like the Constitution, to get everyone on board, the writer of the Bible had to combine both traditions into the official holy book.
(This explains why part of the Noah story talks about single pairs of animals and another part talks about 7 pairs.)
There’s lots of interesting scholarship on this stuff, if you avoid those who are trying to “prove” that it’s “true”.
Cheers,
Scott.
Tony G
These anti-abortion zealots are monsters. It’s that simple. Every media outlet should use the words “forced birth” instead of the words “pro-life” to describe these monsters.
sab
@Kay: My other niece is a very overweight woman. Her family runs plump anyway, and she has an incredibly stressful job sitting around being calm taking care of extremely delicate neonatal babies. So of course she eats, because she is sitting around pretending to be calm under stress. Also too she is an amazing cook.
But regardless of her medical background and her actual intelligence, every doctor she has ever had has said every medical issue she has is because of her weight. Let us just ignore everything else and harp on that.
I am overweight now, but I spent 30 years very underweight with vitamin deficiencies and all that and nobody ever uttered a peep because I was bult like a fashion model. “Faints when she stands up? No big deal. She’s thin” ( I actually had a congenital heart defect undiagnosed because thin girls are healthy girls even though this one faints a lot.)
Ohio Mom
@sab: I just read this about your niece, I am so, so sorry. Horrified and also sad for you and the rest of your family.
The type of depression that leads to suicide can be as rentless and intractable as the worst types of cancer. It’s a disease we are helpless before.
I hope all of you are getting all the IRL support you need. You all did what you could do and there wasn’t anything else that could have been done. Some things are just too hard for any of us humans to manage well.
I hope solace and comfort find you.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Tony G: Exactly, Forced birthers is what they are. Whether to continue a pregnancy should be up to the pregnant person. Pregnancy is the most dangerous thing many women will do. I have been pregnant 3 times and have one living child. First pregnancy I miscarried, the second I had what is called in medical parlance, a “missed abortion” that’s when the fetus dies but is not expelled. You need a D&C or you may develop sepsis and die. I was lucky, I got a nice, legal, safe D&C at the local military hospital (was active duty at the time) . My mother had placenta previa with her third pregnancy and went into early labor at home, hemorrhaged all over the living room, only reason she didn’t bleed to death was my grandma dragged her to the car and floored it to the hospital 4 miles away. I was 4 years old. Thanks to an emergency C section my mother and my brother survived, with no brain damage. My mother’s uterus ruptured and they removed it. Every pregnancy has the potential to kill the pregnant person. And for many people, the day they are born is the most dangerous day of their lives. Forced birthers can go fuck themselves.
sab
Ohio Mom, I was talking to a co-worker who has a neighbor with two ” special needs kids” who seem to be running a bit undersupervised around her neighborhood. The oldest kid is six and running around the neighborhood into traffic and climbing over fences and such.
She is mostly concerned about the kid getting over her fence into her pond but otherwise concerned just about him loose in traffic.
She wants to talk to the mother about he isn’t safe running around the neighborhood unsupervised. But she is sensitive to how hard it is to keep tabs on kids. Any advice? My own step-daughter feels she has to watch her daughter every minute, but she has a work at home situation and her own step-daughter living with her.
Do you have any suggestions for keeping them safe? My step-daughter says no, she is on her own. Locks, latches, anything?
Gretchen
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: it’s maddening that these laws are being written by people who have no knowledge of obstetrics. I’m glad your mom survived.
sab
@Ohio Mom: Thank you. I feel inexpressibly sorry for her two children.
Tony G
@EmbraceYourInnerCrone: I’m glad that you survived that trauma. My understanding is that in the post-Dobbs world, in some states physicians are not properly treating these medical conditions for fear of being arrested and charged with a felony. What a hellhole this country is.
sab
@Tony G: I actually know young mothers with difficult pregnancy histories giving up on having future children, because in their medical situation the risks are too great.
If you have live kids, you usually won’t risk dying in pregnancy like you might for the first. Don’t want to leave those kids motherless.
In modern medicine this shouldn’t even be a choice young mothers have to make. Every time you have a kid you are risking your life? Yes, but that should be only theoretical. The ghost of Teddy Roosevelt should go hang himself except he is already dead. Ghoul. Boys are soldiers. Girls are mothers.
RaflW
@Kay: I was listening to the radio this morning, and a caller to show 1A talked about as a Black woman, it was necessary to dress very well for medical appointments or the doctor would discount what concerns were being voiced.
My (white) mother was blown off multiple times by various doctors when she experienced post-menopause frequent exhaustion. Lots of patronizing about her emotions.
Finally my dad’s former GP, who was a friend, asked if she’d had a glucose tolerance test. She hadn’t, and demanded one. Turns out she had hypoglycemia. Relatively easy to treat with diet and activity changes. But she felt like shit for months and months because of head-patting doctors before that diagnosis.
Ohio Mom
@sab: I didn’t have that problem but I know people who did get all sorts of locks and alarms that went off when their kids opened doors and tried “eloping” as it’s called.
It’s hard to know if this mom is overwhelmed or in deep denial. I would hate to have to think that the best option is to call CPS because they’d probably make things worse.
Glidwrith
@cain: Extremely late to the thread, but Stonekettle over on Twitter once put the solution of men paying for these problems. The overwhelming response was do NOT even try to make them pay: the men will kill us.
lowtechcyclist
Dead thread, I know, but “nearly three times more likely”? Kinda like I’m nearly seven feet tall.
47.5/21.2 = 2.24. That’s not ‘nearly 3.’
I knew Axios sucks, but I didn’t realize they can’t even handle basic arithmetic.
And seeing that it was Axios, Hillary should have checked their work before passing it on.
evodevo
@Kay:
Had a similar situation back in the day with my MIL – she told her quack Dr., who I didn’t trust as far as I could throw him, that she “couldn’t breathe”… he gave her a prescription for Sudafed!! Needless to say, she was in the ER for a heart attack the next day…had to have a triple bypass.
Eolirin
Y’all, if you’re not Jewish and don’t have scholarship expertise, please don’t quote our scripture and assume the words mean what you think they mean. Most of that stuff requires contextualization to the time and place it was written and, as a practical matter, it all requires Rabbinical interpretation, of which we have hundreds of years of development, to have meaning.
Anyone can take any scripture and make it ridiculous by taking it literally, but that’s almost never how it’s actually used by the groups practicing. It’s not even how things are used by the Evangelical groups that treat the Bible as literal and the inerrant word of God.
It isn’t a realistic way to examine religious belief and practice and quickly starts bordering on bigotry.