First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.—Martin Niemöller
In 2023, and we are speaking out, but they are still coming.
I started this post a week or two ago, after a comment from MomSense got me thinking. Here’s what she wrote:
I think we are at the point in this democratic experiment where each of us needs to decide what we are prepared to do to protect the LGBTQIA+ community, black and Latinx people and women.
The GOP, the various white supremacist groups, Qanoners, and others are working themselves up to do even worse things. That they are so organized in the legislation they are passing means that they have big money behind them and organizational strength.
I am definitely not saying we need to prepare for violence but we do need to organize, and get serious about non violent resistance training.
I didn’t see any responses to her comment, and I’m not entirely sure what I think about the non-violent resistance training, but I definitely agree with the rest.
What we are seeing now is no more a grass roots action than the tea party was. These anti-everything bills and protests and not everyday people rising up – it’s big money and outside agitators who are behind this. I don’t know who’s funding it, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s ALEC on steroids, and its reach is really frightening.
I thought we might want to put our heads together and talk about this. There has to be some good trouble we can get into, right?
Open thread.
kindness
Go after the money. It’d be a good start to know who is funding it all. We all understand it’s most likely several oligarchs (domestic & foreign).
Alison Rose
One thing I think is important for those of you with conservatives in your circles is to try to get through to them. I realize some (many) are lost causes, but not all. We know the stories about how, for example, someone was brought around from homophobia by getting to know a gay person. Sometimes individual contact and conversations can have an impact. Even if you yourself aren’t queer in any way, if you think there is a chance of it working, sit down and talk with your conservative cousin/uncle/coworker/etc, and try to lead them out of the morass of their bigotry. As tempting as it would be to tell them to just stop being an asshole, try to get them to have an honest conversation about what exactly they’re afraid of regarding, say, drag shows and trans kids using different names and such. Come back at their statements with factual information and also emotional appeals about the detrimental effects on people from anti-gay, anti-trans laws. Try if you can to get them to see these people as PEOPLE, not as symbols of an intangible thing they’ve been told to be hateful toward. Challenge their preconceived notions, make them explain the things they think are true and show them that they aren’t. I’m not naive, I know this isn’t going to work in many cases. But if you think there’s a chance it could, you owe it to others to make the attempt.
Anonymous At Work
Part of me recalls the Will Rogers quote. I don’t know how to get inside the mindset that “policy doesn’t matter” and go straight for hating for hatred’s sake.
I think the advice to “go after the money” works to an extent when applied to the funding behind these operations. I think teh longer-term plan needs to be eliminating the concentration of wealth that enables a billionaire to fund these projects silently. If they aren’t as rich and operate in a competitive environment, they’ll be less likely to inflict their hatreds on others.
WaterGirl
@Anonymous At Work: Which Will Rogers quote?
dm
Now might be a good time to revisit Kay’s post from last night:
cain
Satyagraha or non-cooperation is a powerful form of protest. The Indians have used this successfully and so has MLK. However, it takes great discipline to do. This is why the FBI always ends up investigating non-violent movements. They know how powerful it is because it hurts economically – when people are willing to stop commerce – shit gets real fast.
dm
@dm: (Sorry, waited to long to be able to edit the post)
I think we can get a lot of mileage out of “Yeah, those busybodies want to talk about bathrooms and pronouns, ban books, and limit teachers when we have kids not learning because they’re hungry, or kids not learning because we can’t find teachers willing to put up with the harassing busybodies. Or kids not learning because they’re spending time on active shooter drills. They’d rather talk about made-up things like ‘CRT’ and ‘woke’ instead of dealing with roads and healthcare.”
UncleEbeneezer
@Alison Rose: Yes. Challenge the very premise at the core of their arguments. Whether it is your MAGA or Centrist family member, or the New York Times etc., they all start from the premise that people transitioning is BAD. But there’s absolutely no reason to think that. Anyone who actually knows people who have transitioned (either socially or medically) knows that that is the exact opposite of the truth. In all the cases I know of personally, transitioning was the best decision they ever made. That’s not uncommon. Point out to skeptics that when they focus on the 2% regret rate they are just pushing to ban GAC from ALL Transgender people. This may help some well-meaning but ignorant people who are on the fence come over to our side.
gVOR08
Don’t assume the people funding this are anti LGBTQ, or even anti-woke. The late David Koch was reportedly pro-choice and pro-gay rights. I don’t see evidence the surviving Koch Bro cares one way or another. But they have been very much pro low taxes, for themselves, and light regulation of their polluting businesses. That means funding GOPs. And the GOPs, since they have nothing else to offer, are desperately finding, or inventing, any molehill FOX/GOP can inflate into a mountain.
The funders for this are probably the usual suspects, already known to us. Or at least as known as our dark money universe allows.
H.E.Wolf
Non-violent resistance can take many forms – including GOTV activities.
There is plenty of unglamorous, persistent, quiet work available, which will have a cumulative positive effect in voter-suppression states.
PostcardsToVoters.org is one of many groups with a plan for what to do, in between high-profile special elections (though they’ll be there for those also):
“We will resume writing #PostcardsToVoters in FL letting [Democrats] know they need to re-enroll [in FL Vote By Mail].
Text JOIN to (484) 275-2229”
I’m ready to write to Democrats in Betty Cracker’s home state. Behind enemy lines is an excellent place to be… if you have a sapper’s mentality. :-)
Nelle
@UncleEbeneezer: So many of us live with regret in one way or another , so of course you might find some people that regret transitioning. You can find some women who regret abortions, though I think more don’t. How many regret their marriages? A much greater percentage. So that talking point can be dealt with.
Jeffg166
The biggest group being attacked first is women with the overthrow of Roe. That cost the GQP their imagined red wave. Women are motivated. I expect they will stay motivated.
Then support for people of color and voting rights. Another group who are motivated. They have been down this road before.
LGBT are a smaller group but most everyone has a relative, friend, work colleague or some other connection with the group. LGBT people are also motived not to lose what they have managed to gain in the last 50 years.
This is the new coalition that is the base of the Democratic Party.
It’s a lot of people. It’s all about getting out the vote for every election not just the presidential one. Turning the state houses around is going to take time.
WaterGirl
@Nelle: That’s a really good point, I think. You will never find of group of people – related to anything – where someone doesn’t have regrets.
Sister Golden Bear
Some things you can do on the trans front:
Yes, it’s on the Elon hellsite, but check in with https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn who has been doing extraordinary work tracking anti-LGB-and-especially-T bills, and other disinformation. If can, send her a few bucks.
If the haters are trying to intimidate a drag show, show up as a counter protester.
If you state is considering anti-LGB-and-especially-T bills, show up to protest, or at least contact your state reps. These laws are unpopular with the public — even a majority of Republicans don’t support them. We may not stop these bills from passing, but a large public protest will hopefully get news coverage and show their unpopularity.
If you see someone saying/doing hateful, use your privilege to speak up, and intervene if necessarily.
Get out the vote. Even if you’re in a gerrymandered district, narrowing the margin may make Republicans pause a little before acting. Be sure to especially pay attention to local races — in particular school boards.
WaterGirl
@Jeffg166: I would argue that immigrants and people of color have been attacked since long before the overthrow of Dobbs.
But I totally agree that such a large swath of people are being attacked – and more every day – so maybe we need to put aside our differences, focus on where our goals overlap, and fight back together.
Just wait until more women figure out that they are coming for birth control.
suzanne
@cain:
Agreed. Hitting them in the pocketbook is always where it pushes hardest. And the contemporary version of this is reduction of influence, digital deplatforming, etc.
I am not about direct confrontation when there are so many guns.
Kirk Spencer
@WaterGirl: I’m kind of expecting some state legislature to overstep on birth control. I don’t think they will actually go through with the ban because enough will have paid attention to the effect of ending Doe. But some idiot with enough juice will force a bill to a floor vote; a bill that puts up barriers, not an outright ban.
I’m just hoping it’ll be this cycle.
Alison Rose
@Jeffg166: Let’s not ignore that repro rights are also a class and racial justice and queer issue, too. Because wealthy and even middle-class white cis women will still be able to find ways to access abortion and birth control. Low-income people of color are often the ones hit hardest by draconian anti-abortion laws, and Black women are shamed both for getting abortions AND having babies. I can also imagine that an unintended pregnancy would be massively awful for a trans man, and not being able to get an abortion could be life-threatening, even if the pregnancy itself is not.
Dobbs was not only about “women”, it was also about race and class and queerness, too.
suzanne
@Alison Rose:
Many of us increasingly do not have conservatives in our personal circles, either via natural assortation or via specific design.
Baud
@suzanne:
Jeffg166
@WaterGirl: Abigail Adams was pissed off at John that women didn’t get the right to vote in the constitution when it was written.
WaterGirl
@Sister Golden Bear: Yeah, I have always left the school board races to people who have kids and are tuned into that.
Not this year. Even in our nice college town we have a bunch of crazies running for school board, so I made an effort to find out which ones were crazy and which were not.
We all have to be all in, I think.
Matt McIrvin
@gVOR08: To my mind actions are more important than what’s in your heart. If you’re some kind of libertarian who supports abortion and gay rights, but you care so much about not paying taxes that you’ll support hater politicians to do it, you’re still functionally a hater.
artem1s
The most effective way of resisting is to not let them split us into single issue voters. This has been their divide and conquer strategy since Southern Strategy.
Use the lesson of this simple statement “Women’s Rights are Human Rights”.
‘fill in the blank” Rights are Human Rights. The simple truth is we are for Human Rights and they aren’t. Any time the WRNJ’s or GOP or Talibangelists are removing rights (especially when they are using religion or children as their excuse) we should remind ourselves and them that keeping vigil on any person’s civil rights (no matter what dog whistle label you are currently assigning them) is equal to keeping vigil on every Human’s rights. There is no such thing as waiting in line. And there is no zero sum loss for anyone when someone else’s rights are respected and they are represented in society. Any legislation covering my ass should also cover everyone else’s ass. Any legislation holding me accountable should also hold whites, male, rich and powerful accountable. If it’s not, then it’s not actually covering anyone’s ass or holding anyone accountable.
Omnes Omnibus
Origuy
Randy Rainbow releases a song for Arraignment Day!
edit: I fixed your link. ~WG
Baud
@artem1s:
Agreed.
Alison Rose
@suzanne: Well, sure. I certainly don’t. But some people here do.
MisterDancer
I highly recommend the work of the Popular Information newsletter for this kind of information.I’ve used their information to, for example, point out how the Koches tired to manipulate public opinion about the Ukraine War to avoid having to leave Russia.
For one point, you can track them by looking at the astrotufed groups that push these initiatives. Popular Information does that kind of reporting, for example on the so-called “Great Schools Initiative (GSI)” group in Michigan back in Feb. This work matters because knowing who is running these means we can start driving awareness — including supporting others who can do the research on funding.
And it’s not just PopInfo who can help in this. It took an unknown hacker to make public all the emails that showcase the trail of people and orgs that helped kick-start all this anti-Trans legislation, an effort Mother Jones reported on. If you want to know why this is happening, reading that article opens up a world of people planning to push pain and agony on a vulnerable population, and how they did that horrid work. That’s work a lot of news orgs are still invested in, on some level.
rikyrah
I think that we have to draw a line in the sand with LGBTQIA+ folks.
The other side wants genocide. Their bills clearly follow that path.
We don’t.
It really is that simple.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
This made me think of my own parents. I’m very openly gay, have been for a long time.
They’re not explicitly homophobic. But when I try to discuss what DeSatan is doing in Florida, they refuse to believe it. They buy the line that it’s not all that serious, that it’s only to ban exposing children to sexually explicit materials (already illegal and not happening in classrooms), and that it doesn’t affect us here in Massachusetts anyway.
My real suspicion is that all they care about is tax cuts, have their side, and won’t believe the lived experience of their own son* over Tucker Carlson if it means considering voting for someone who might increase their manager’s taxes or something.
*You know; school bullying, the role of the teacher in intervening, what age appropriate lessons on sexual preference and gender look like to 8 year olds (mommies, daddies, pronouns, et c.)
Sister Golden Bear
@rikyrah:
This! 1000x this
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
It’s also likely the same phenomena as several years ago, that when focus groups were told actual Republican policies on healthcare, taxes, etc. the focus groups simply refused to believe these policies were real because they were so extreme.
rikyrah
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
It’s NOT ‘ just Florida’. We see the same things happening in State after Red State. Just pick one.
Heck, research Sister Golden Bear here at BJ and just print out one week’s worth of the ‘HORRIBLE HATEFUL LEGISLATION’ POSTS.
It’s NOT ‘ just Florida’.
It’s all over the country, affecting millions of people.
suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: Understood, but any strategy for success has to go beyond personal appeal.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@rikyrah: But, again, this is Massachusetts. We’re safe…until they start this shit at the federal level.
Like how my mother, one of the same parents discussed above, was always dead certain that Roe was safe and baffled that it was discussed every election. No expressed problem with the current state of affairs.
Sister Golden Bear
@rikyrah:
Definitely, please all, take a look at this Anti-Trans Legislative Risk Assessment Map, — in more than half the country, it’s not safe to be a trans person.
Almost Retired
@Alison Rose: This is exactly right, at least for those of us who still have conservatives in our family or social circles. A high school friend (rural Midwest) has a trans son, and she posts about his joys and challenges on Facebook. At least among that circle, these posts seems to have changed minds and softened the knee jerk resistance of the C- and D+ students in my graduating class who are conservative. Hate is harder when the object of your hate is not abstract. It also helps with this rural crowd that my friend was somewhat conservative, and not a California lib that you can safely ignore (like me).
Anoniminous
Poem updated to reflect historic accuracy —
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because it was a way for Germany to return to the Christian moralityThen they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because it was a way for Germany to return to the Christian moralityThen they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because it was a way for Germany to return to the Christian moralityThen they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Niemöller only gave a shit when the Face Eating Leopard Party starting eating his face.
[1] The Strange Case of Pastor Niemöller
Omnes Omnibus
@suzanne: FFS, I doubt that the commenter intended that advice as the sum total of what should be done. Success will be the result of many different kinds of actions over the rest of everyone’s lives and beyond.
Matt McIrvin
@suzanne: I do think it’s more than just conservatives though. I find it’s still too common for liberals, especially straight white male liberals who feel relatively safe themselves, to treat conservative objections to protecting the rights of marginalized people as interesting thought experiments, and think about them in this very abstract way, not necessarily seeing the bad faith there or the damage these objections can do.
Especially when it comes to a case where it superficially seems like the stakes are low until you think about the ramifications, like worrying about trans athletes having some unfair advantage. (Starts with fretting about Olympic medal counts, ends with junior-high genital inspectors.)
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
But, you know, Trans folk are the supposed threat to your children. 🤬🤬🤬
Also, too, the additional focus on drag really brings home that no, it would not be OK with Republicans if Trans folk just dressed how they wanted and used their assgned-at-birth pronouns. No deviation from cis-heteronormativity will be tolerated. It’s more “how far can we bring this argument so we don’t piss off the 47 percent of people we need to win elections?”
kindness
That Martin Niemöller quote is speaking the truth here. Those going after abortion and LGBTQIA+ folks won’t stop there. These same people fully intend to gut women’s rights to most contraception methods and make gay marriage illegal again. These people are all in on a Handmaiden’s Tale theocracy here in the US.
Princess
It will be very interesting to see how the Wisconsin Supreme Court election goes tomorrow. Ben Wikler is an organizer with the Dem campaign and he decided for his day-before-the-vote op ed to make it about one issue and one issue alone: abortion. He evidently things it will sell with just enough women who frequently or always vote GOP. These women voted for Trump, maybe even twice. We’ll see how it goes but I’d never bet against him.
MisterDancer
It can be a great approach. I know that my friendships have opened my eyes to a lot of things I would not have considered. Knowing the people as people can truly open hearts and minds.
It can be an issue when — and yes, I know people who have this stance — the expectation is that the people who are in vulnerable populations do this kind of work on the norm. As someone who got burned out hard on the “educate your friends about Blackness” front, I guess I’m still a bit sensitive to that as a risk?
rikyrah
I would like to make this point. There is a segment of this country who has lived under fascism. You may call it Jim Crow. But, there’s a reason why I always write that both of my parents grew up in the Police State known as the Jim Crow South.
I also think it’s why I clearly see that there’s no middle ground to be had with these people.
I KNOW WHAT THE PHUCK THEY WANT TO GO BACK TO.
AND, I SAY HELL NO.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Right. You shouldn’t have to spend your life justifying your existence to every rando with a bias.
lowtechcyclist
@kindness:
At this point, anyone who is funding GOP candidates is functionally anti-LGBTQ, anti-woman, anti-Black, anti-minority in general. Any corporation that’s still supporting the GOP needs to be asked why do they hate gay and trans people? Why do they hate women? Why do they hate Blacks, Jews, Hispanics?
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: I didn’t find too many allies during the reign of the anti-immigrant Orange Terror. There is an underlying hostility to the groups you mention above even in liberal spaces. Sometimes I prefer RWNJs who wear their hostility on their sleeve so I know I need to steer clear of them. Its better than finding a knife in your back from people you think of as friends or allies.
Matt McIrvin
@MisterDancer: That’s why allies who are relatively safe need to step up, and break any assumption that they’re going to agree with bigots.
Michael Bersin
The revolution won’t be televised nor covered in your local newspaper. Mostly because of money and the defunding of local and regional media – for various corporate profit considerations. One of the results of this environment is that most local and regional newspapers do not have professional photojournalists, or, if they do, not enough of them.
Old media still clings to “all opposing views are equal” coverage. If they do show up, that’s the coverage you’ll get. It’s up to protestors, demonstrators, etc., to create the narrative. Since almost everyone has a smart phone there are plenty of direct sources. The trick is to get the narrative and message to new media (yes, Balloon Juice is part of that) in some kind of organized and coherent manner.
I’ve covered hundreds of public events. A few months ago I was asked to present a lecture to an undergraduate political science class on politics and activism. They were interested in the process of new media coverage.
Among my suggestions to the students interested in organizing :
Most public events don’t require “official” credentials – half the battle is just showing up.
Safety First. If you notice Nazis with clubs at the location, walk away, now.
Awareness – be aware of your surroundings and what you’re getting sucked into, especially in large crowd movements (kettling, anyone?).
Have a specific plan of what you will and won’t do, and when to walk away. Plan for possible contingencies.
Camera, camera, camera. Always.
Phone – set unlock to entry code, never biometrics
Comfortable shoes or running shoes. It’s not a good idea to wear sandals at a street event or protest.
Record audio all the time, from the very beginning. I have several dedicated digital audio recorders for this purpose. Many times, two operating simultaneously.
Team up, never, ever attend a street protest or public demonstration on your own.
Have a designated meeting place, just not within the area of interest.
Infants and toddlers, not to mention any children that you’d miss if they were gone, have no place or role in the street even if you absolutely know it’s “safe”.
Think about what information you’ll need to make bail beforehand.
You have an attorney? You have their direct phone number?
If you’re doing something in public you effectively have no right to privacy when it comes to news coverage and reporting.
If you’re providing video/photos to some news entity, landscape, not portrait.
Videos for television – landscape. Otherwise, you’ll get that irritating out of focus masking when or if they do broadcast it.
Still media outlets (newspapers – column) will crop to their requirements.
Never grant permission to use your media to The Faux News Channel.
Press releases – Write the story for them. They won’t for you.
There are plenty of people with a lot of experience at this. Organizing helps a lot.
I believe the ACLU has good material on your rights at street protests.
Dan B
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: We’ve got the same situation with my partner’s siblings. They are completely blind to what the rhetoric is and how legislatures and the Extreme Court has shown it loves to defy precedence. I would not be surprised that they believe the rhetoric around groomers and pedophiles only applies to trans people and since we are cis it’s not aimed at us.
And, we are hysterical if we believe we are targets. We’re probably far down the list but with the current state of the media things could change rapidly.
Princess
@rikyrah: hell no, and you’re right about everything. These people are telling us what they want to do and we’re, a lot of us, too many of us, not listening.
rikyrah
Would like to point out that when we first started out with the bullshyt anti-trans bills…
it was all about ‘ THE CHILDREN’.
THE CHILDREN.
And, then, they pushed it to where Texas was getting information on transADULTS through the Department of Motor Vehicles and other legal agencies
GROWN FOLKS.
18+
They are ADULTS. what business is it of yours how they live their lives?
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Agreed.
@Sister Golden Bear: Good suggestions. Thanks.
Ksmiami
We need to tax these mega religion churches that are interfering in our secular politics. If they want to preach politics, the IRS needs to go after these theofascists fucking hard. Nail them.
Michael Bersin
@artem1s:
Solidarity.
WaterGirl
@Princess: I googled and I couldn’t find anything. Do you have a link? or can you at least give me an idea of where to look?
schrodingers_cat
@Matt McIrvin: Not one group has won or preserved their rights by depending on others to fight their battles. If other groups help that’s a bonus. But the marginalized groups cannot really depend on it.
Ksmiami
P.S. the time to try and win over conservatives is long gone. Now they have to be decimated electorally or whatever. Sorry not sorry.
Gin & Tonic
The “dildo of consequences” came up here last week. So, relatedly: Ukrainian hackers took over an account belonging to a russian volunteer and spent all $25k on his card ordering sex toys from Ali Express, and having them delivered to his house.
In case the inevitable question arises of using the funds for something more helpful for Ukraine, the account was such that only delivery to his house was an option, so actual offensive weapons would have been a bad idea.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@schrodingers_cat: I’m an ally on immigrant issues. Maybe try being an ally on economic issues. Jus sayin
Racial justice issues, too, come to think of it. You have spent an awful lot of time disparaging the methods and goals of police reform advocates with no real sign of empathy for the cause or alternate proposals how to proceed seeking police reform.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Do you not see most Balloon Juice peeps as allies?
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Here you go.
Baud
@Michael Bersin:
If you happen to have a child you don’t care for, however, feel free to bring them lol.
WaterGirl
@Dan B: The other side has a to do list, and they are plowing through it at breakneck speed.
Alison Rose
@suzanne: Did I indicate I thought this was the only thing needed? I did not. It was one element that has proven in the past to work in some situations.
Gin & Tonic
@Sister Golden Bear:
I’d add, from long experience on other issues, if you have the time, go to the meetings of the local boards. They are required to be public, and in most places few people show up. Don’t let the RWNJ loudmouths be the only ones the board hears from.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic:
Well, that’s literal.
Dan B
@rikyrah: As a white, upper middke class kid in Jim Crow Arkansas I know. All the black people avoided being noticed by the white people. They seemed terrified by ten year old me. The fear was tangible. It was infectious.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Thank you. I had checked his twitter feed, but I didn’t go down far enough. Yikes it was just an hour ago and it was way down the page.
Ben Wikler is a prolific tweeter, apparently.
WaterGirl
@Baud: hahaha
Baud
As long as we’re giving advice about what to do, this is a good opportunity to get on my high horse again and recommend singing the praises of political leaders doing the good work and fighting the good fight. And not only–in fact, especially not only–when they do things that go viral.
I continue to feel like this is a hole in our approach that we collectively still have a mental block with.
Sister Golden Bear
@Anoniminous: Regarding the Niemöller quote, it’s not quite true, the Nazis came for the LGBTQ people before they came for the Socialists. Niemöller didn’t object to that either.
@Matt McIrvin:
This has definitely been a problem. The road to genocide has been paved with cries that we’re overreacting.
Matt McIrvin
@Sister Golden Bear: As with many of these issues, I live in a relatively safe place but a potential battleground is 3 miles up the road.
Michael Bersin
Exactly this.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Since Reagan, the true maverick position is to support a functioning, benevolent government.
For Republicans, speaking truth to power means lie, distort, bully, and take whatever other means to fight functioning, benevolent government; all to attain true power.
I’m ready for 2024 and to take on whatever social disrepute I need to cheerlead for Joe Biden.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Apparently didn’t even consider it worth mentioning.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Put it on a shirt.
MisterDancer
@Sister Golden Bear: I think a lot, these days, about Hirschfeld and the Institute of Sex Research. How much easier it might be for you, or my Trans friends, had the Nazis not made it an early target.
I think, in that situation, lies uneasy parallels with much of what’s happening, today.
(For those unaware.)
schrodingers_cat
deleted.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@schrodingers_cat: Saw you deleted. I will too.
Princess
@WaterGirl: Sure! Here it is: https://captimes.com/ea30ce9e-b0e2-5bca-a388-5b6ea436ceb3.html
Baud
When you’ve lost Texas judges…
UncleEbeneezer
If we are talking about trying to change hearts/minds of decent people who mean well but just haven’t fully gotten to the right side of things yet (and yes, I think these people do exist), I think one tactic (not the ONLY one) might be to appeal to their own self-interest. Fragility is a thing and we all have it to some extent. Putting aside MAGA/Nazis (because fuck them anyways), most decent people really want to avoid the sting of being called out for doing/saying something Transphobic (or Racist, Misogynist etc.). It’s embarrassing, it wounds our egos and pride and I think deep down it’s because people know they fucked up, even if they don’t understand how or won’t admit it. Nobody LIKES being called a bigot.
There are two ways people can avoid that:
1.) double-down, say up is down, left is right, anti-racism is the REAL racism etc., plain old denial (what Conservatives, TERFs, Incels, Centrist-assholes do). Fuck that…
But a much, MUCH better way is:
2.) Change. Do some listening. Accept what marginalized groups tell you. Stop gaslighting them and start becoming an ally in all the ways you can. It literally changes your heart for the better, makes you way less likely to do/say Transphobic stuff (thus avoiding the painful call-outs) and most importantly helps make the world slightly better for Transgender People. I’m a Cis/Het/White Man. We are History’s Greatest Monsters™ (kidding, not kidding). I used to revel in having all the Isms/Phobias that are so commonly in-grained in us. But eventually I took some of the scoldings I received (justifiably) and decided to listen to them, ditched the misbelief that I had all the answers and started actually listening to Women, Black People, LGBTQ People etc. It made me a better more socially aware person, but it also made MY LIFE better and happier. I don’t feel anxious in mostly-Black spaces anymore. I don’t feel “attacked” when Women speak the truth about Men and Misogyny anymore. I don’t feel weird about LGBTQ Pride and open displays of queer love and gender-nonconformity. Now I celebrate those things. I have a much greater understanding of their issues and value their perspectives. I love them and their amazing communities. I’m not special. Anyone can do this. And it’s worth doing for every marginalized group. And it benefits us in myriad ways. Frame allyship/solidarity as this great thing that nobody wanna miss out on. While of course always emphasizing that there’s more to it than just good feelings and that tangible equality for marginalized groups is what matters most, stay in your lane etc.
But change/solidarity can be framed as a good thing. Because it is!! Anyways, I think that this framing could be effective with some well-meaning people. This is something WE (people outside of those marginalized communities) can try with our peers to try to steer them in the right direction, and it’s our job/duty to do that work where we can (not the people being marginalized).
Once you can get someone to care about a community (not just selective members from that community) the policy/political stuff naturally follows, in my opinion. Nobody who really loves/cares about a marginalized community is going to get suckered into supporting the kind of shit that the GOP is currently pushing or refuse to vote. They will listen when you explain why those things are dangerous and will refuse to support them. I’ve seen people change for the better. I like to think I’ve done so myself. And the heart/feelings is definitely (one of many) parts of the equation.
WaterGirl
@Baud: That’s great. But what about the rest of the books they banned?
WaterGirl
@Princess: Thanks for pointing out the op ed. I put up a post reminding Wisconsin peeps to vote.
Sister Golden Bear
@Baud: And when you’ve lost Trump-appointed Tennessee judges.
‘Unconstitutionally vague’: Federal judge temporarily blocks Tennessee drag ban
Bupalos
I think on balance we need to frame and think of advocacy a little less in terms of something extraordinary we need specialized training for, and a little more in terms of refusing to ‘obey in advance,’ to put it in Timothy Snyder’s term. Or simply not collaborating. More of a general and permanent habit of everyday life. We need to accept that there is more risk in making an extra wide berth to stay out of the way this ridiculous unconstitutional crap than there is in challenging it or at the least forcing them to do the work of enforcing it themselves. With even a modicum of solidarity, they can’t.
Most of the journalism I read for instance on the memory law stuff about outlawing making anyone feel discomfort or guilt about history featured teachers or school administrators or even activists essentially agreeing that that meant they couldn’t address certain subjects. We all can get the sentiment of sounding an alarm in that regard, and obviously these bills phrased in a way that leads to impossible expansiveness on purpose. But there’s a fine line here between sounding the alarm and doing work for the troglodytes who are passing this garbage. In this reporting I’ve yet to hear someone explain why learning history has nothing to do with these concepts, that if someone feels guilty upon learning about the Tulsa massacre or anything else that happened outside their control then they maybe need therapy, but that there is simply no legal way someone teaching what happened can be said to have caused that feeling. What I’d like to see is teachers and administrators say “that law sounds dumb and ripe for abuse, and of course I’ve always ensured my teaching doesn’t have that effect.”
Dorothy A. Winsor
Speaking of action against women, I’m reading Louise Penny’s newest book, some of which is set in Gamache’s very early days in the Surete. He’s getting ready to fly to Paris for Christmas when a message comes through that there’s been an “incident” at the Ecole Polytechnique. That’s all it took, and I knew what Penny was talking about. A few lines later, she gives the date, December 6, 1989–the date of the Montreal Massacre. A man went into the engineering school with a gun, separated the men and the women, sent the men out, and gunned down the women for having the temerity to think they could be engineers.
When I heard the news, I was teaching at General Moters Institute, an engineering school. I can’t tell you how personally hated I felt for being a woman in that situation. It still shocks me. Every woman I knew who was connected to engineering at the time felt the same way.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Sister Golden Bear: I think these people are too damn dumb to write a good law. Or maybe it’s hard to write a good law for such a ridiculous cause.
Sister Golden Bear
@MisterDancer:
Much valuable research and historical accounts by trans people were lost forever.
Republicans haven’t gotten to actual book burnings (yet), but the intent is exactly the same. To eradicate trans people/non-binary from public life, and public knowledge. Some influencial Christofascists are already talking about the next step of eradicating trans/non-binary people entirely as the “solution.” A final one, you might say. It’s not for nothing that they’re aligning themselves with actual neo-Nazis.
Matt McIrvin
@UncleEbeneezer: My attitude toward trans rights is the same one I had toward gay rights. These are MY rights too. No, I don’t personally want to get married to a man or change my official gender identity. But I don’t want the government to decide those things for me either; I want to be the one who decides. Having the government make my contingent choices on these questions mandatory, where there is no harm done by making a different choice, is just weird and is an abridgement of my freedom just like it is of anybody’s.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Sister Golden Bear: I’ve run into a surprising number of people who are shocked by the book bans. People often bring it up when they learn I’m a writer. The word they use is “awful.”
Sister Golden Bear
@UncleEbeneezer:
When a minority person you know calls you out on something, think of it like they’re telling you’ve got spinach in your teeth. They both care enough to get you a heads-up, and have (at least some) faith that you’ll make an effort to fix it.
JoyceH
While I agree that all these ‘culture war’ issues need to be confronted and opposed, I think we also need to get the message to the culture war foot soldiers that they’re being used. If you could uncover every dark money influence across the nation, I really doubt that you’re going to uncover some shadowy billionaire with a loathing for trans people. Trans, gay, drag, books, pronouns, etc – those are all just the distractions to rile the troops and keep them voting against their own interests. You might convince your neighbor that trans people are no threat to him, but then you need to get him to start asking – ‘what are they distracting you from?’ What do the powers behind the GOP really want? They really want low taxes and no accountability for the rich, and low pay and no public services or general human rights for everybody else.
There’s been a map making the rounds, looks like a voting map, but what it really is is a life expectancy map. And the difference between the areas with the highest life expectancy and the lowest is twenty years – TWENTY! And it looks like a voting map because the areas with the lowest life expectancy track pretty exactly with the areas with the highest concentration of Republican voters. Because while the GOP is getting their voters riled up about drag shows and the border, they’re cutting taxes and cutting services, lowering regulations on businesses and guns, lowering the age for child labor in FACTORIES, and chasing doctors out of the state. These culture warriors need to understand that they’re voting in the very policies that are killing them – and killing their kids.
Anonymous At Work
@WaterGirl: Sorry, work. “I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.”
Bruce K in ATH-GR
I know we’ve had this discussion before about Niemoller, but the fact that he was fine with the Nazis targeting all those out-groups until the leopard came to eat HIS face, by which time it was too late, was kind of his point. The Socialists/Communists were just the first ones he noticed.
UncleEbeneezer
@JoyceH: Heather McGhee’s book The Sum Of Us documents this strategy of division very well. She also has a podcast. Scene On Radio: Seeing White podcast is also great for helping people understanding it. Both do so from a perspective of Race, but I think it’s fairly easy once you get the concept to see how it can be used from other angles (Women, LGBTQ, Immigrants etc.) to exploit divisions and create fissures in progressive coalitions.
Sister Golden Bear
@Dorothy A. Winsor: The reason the anti-trans laws are vague are not only because Republicans are dumb, but these laws are intentionally vague to:
UncleEbeneezer
@Bruce K in ATH-GR: Last year I saw Jewish friends of mine become outraged about Kanye’s anti-Semitism, after completely ignoring his years anti-Blackness. I thought it was kind of ironic given how many of them love that famous quote.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Sister Golden Bear: You’re right, of course. You see that in the book removals from schools if there’s even a possibility of a problem. In women’s health care too.
JoyceH
@UncleEbeneezer:
It’s kind of like how those who imagine themselves rugged individualists like the phrase to ‘pull yourself up by your own bootstraps’, when the phrase originated as irony, since it is literally impossible to pull yourself up with your own bootstraps.
Michael Bersin
You just described Missouri.
Missouri’s 8th Congressional District, represented by Jason Smith (r), is one of the poorest in the nation. Smith was reelected in 2022 with 76% of the vote against a good Democratic Party candidate.
You can provide people/voters all the verifiable true information you want, if they don’t care about what anyone else says it will do you no good.
It’s not for a lack of trying here in Missouri.
WaterGirl
@Sister Golden Bear: The lack of clarity reminds me of the laws/regulations for the formerly incarcerated in Florida. You had to pay all your fines before you could vote, but there was no easy way to find out how much you fucking owed!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Michael Bersin: I admire people who keep on keeping on. There’s a kind of faith in that.
WaterGirl
@JoyceH: If you have a link to that map, or can send me an email and tell me how to find it, can you send me the map or let me know how to find it?
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: https://twitter.com/nsjersey/status/1642165562464673794
Here is the creator : https://twitter.com/jeremybney
And here is the paper it comes from: https://medium.com/analytics-vidhya/life-expectancy-and-inequality-7eb4d58617b8
Sister Golden Bear
@JoyceH:
I respectfully disagree that this is an effective tactic, given that all the previous “they’re voting against their interests” efforts have inevitably failed.
You’re overlooking that they are getting perceived benefits: tribal identity, the ability to take out their frustrations with their lives by punching down, the ability to feel superior to someone, addressing their fears that their way of life is being lost, which is not necessarily imaginary. The percentage of Evangelical Christianof the total population has dropped by half in recent years. They’re also being decentered, and when all your life you’ve experienced privilege, culture has revolved around you, you’ve been the ones defining the social order, then equality feels like oppression.
Matt McIrvin
@JoyceH: What the life expectancy map really looks like is a poverty map. But it’s no coincidence that the states with the poorest areas tend to have Republican state governments.
I noticed that a lot of the red states out West actually have quite high life expectancy, on the whole–except for angry red splotches coinciding with some of the big Native reservations.
MisterDancer
Mark what you say as truth:
Bupalos
@Michael Bersin: I think that map is interpreted in one causal direction, one which is more comfortable for the northeast and the west coast to dwell on. It does clearly run in that direction, but in reality it may be a line running more in the opposite direction, on the same plane.
There’s a pretty strong correlation between a state being on the wrong side of economic inequality and turning red. In 1960 NY, OH, PA, IN had very similar median incomes and occupied a similar left/right space, sorting left to right in that order, corresponding to median income. NY between 7-15% higher than the others in the group. In 2022 NY is about 26-40% higher than the group, and it still sorts left to right by income, now NY, PA, OH, IN. It’s really hard to make the case that political policy caused this redistribution and sorting, and really easy to make the case that it worked the other way around.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Thank you!
gvg
@Bupalos: That can be true. People who are poor are already afraid and they are really afraid of their taxes going up even if most of the taxes are actually going to be coming out of the rich which is not the recent lived experience of the poor here. It does not matter if they would be really helped by some improvement plant if the family can’t make the rent NOW, they aren’t going to vote for taxes and they are going to always vote for politicians who promise pie in the sky and cheap solutions. Time passes and the schools get worse and the roads get worse and there are not doctors or hospitals. Possibly their church comforts them. They cannot afford any gambles and investments are actually gambles although doing nothing or doing the same things that haven’t been working can be worse than gambles it doesn’t seem like it.
I don’t know how to change that but I am sure it is easier if you can start before the pattern is too low and stubblorn.
UncleEbeneezer
I haven’t listened to this yet, but I just saw this podcast mentioned on Twitter and it looks good: The Anti-Trans Hate Machine: The Plot Against Equality
rikyrah
@Matt McIrvin:
Won’t forget that some of the benefits of what the Democrats have passed in Biden’s first two years includes infrastructure that will bring ELECTRICITY to some reservations.
ELECTRICITY.
Think about that.
Let alone some of them getting dependable internet service for the first time.
lowtechcyclist
@Michael Bersin:
I’m sure that’s good advice, but if I weren’t going to participate in a protest unless I’d done all those things, I would never attend a protest, period.
lowtechcyclist
@WaterGirl:
ISTM that the legal limbo for ex-felons in Florida should be vulnerable to challenge on those grounds alone. Whatever the citizens of Florida intended when they passed that amendment several years ago, it’s pretty damn sure that this legal limbo is NOT what they had in mind.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah:
Fuck. How can that have been true for so long? Ridiculous, as if they were not even human.
MomSense
As it happens, on April 1st the neo Nazi group NSC-131 held a March in Portland Maine. The police did not press charges and the press did not cover the reports of assaults on black and queer people. The police didn’t even take statements. There are several groups planning to stage a response. I’ll try to attend. The videos of the hate group are really awful. They are covering their faces with black masks and saying some Bullshit about these streets are theirs or something. We need to drive these assholes back under their rocks.
prostratedragon
@Origuy: Simply outstanding!
Michael Bersin
@lowtechcyclist:
Your mileage may vary.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: Ugh. Cops did nothing?
MomSense
@WaterGirl:
Nope. Said they couldn’t do anything because it was peaceful but refused to take statements from people who were assaulted.
MomSense
https://www.newscentermaine.com/amp/article/news/local/neo-nazi-group-parades-through-portland/97-00c1d23d-39b1-4981-bf1f-eacad71aa5b9
Article on what happened.
jonas
@UncleEbeneezer:
By the same logic pregnancy and childbirth care should be banned because of the minuscule percentage of women who experience severe postpartum depression and try to kill their kids. We see those cases as extreme outliers. Why not the number of people who de-transition?
For every person who ends up reconsidering their gender transition, there are another 1000 whose lives were saved and/or massively improved because of GAC.
Glidwrith
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Nominated for rotating tag
Glidwrith
@WaterGirl: As I recall, there was no lack of clarity in the beginning. Voter initiative simply said, served your time, rights restored. More than a million people being able to vote again. But the thug legislature got involved AFTER the measure overwhelmingly passed and claimed fees had to be paid, but the State had no obligation to inform on the amount or even if fees were owed.
And a fucking court upheld that crap.