@micahvalentine
Hey folks, the last 2 weeks have been a mess as I’ve been having some crazy unexpected health issues. I wound up in the ER Monday, and have just been recovering the last few days. I really hate hospitals (who doesn’t!), but they grate on me even more because I always get serially misgendered, which can be exhausting.
So imagine my surprise that the nurse who helped me get into a wheelchair immediately clocked from listening to my roomate that I use they/them pronouns, without anything needing to be said, and just shifted to using them.
Then the doctor, who was a really sweet woman, also asked me what name and pronouns I wanted to use, and also turned to my partner to ask him. Really just easy and such a cool thing to do.
Also had a very funny moment with a male orderly who thought he was in the wrong room when he came looking for “Eddie,” and then I think overcorrected when he realized I was trans and immediately started calling me “sir.” It was very cute, especially since he had to gurney me around for like 10 minutes, and every time we hit any bump or closed door, he was like “Sorry about that, sir.” Everyone should get to be “sir” sometimes, whatever “sir” is for them.
I like to share these little stories because it was all so easy when usually navigating healthcare stuff as a trans person is so tough. I didn’t care that a few of the orderlies misgendered me because I don’t really expect otherwise, but I felt so much better taken care of that folks were actually looking out for someone like me. Learning how to pay just a little extra attention isn’t the hell republicans or neoliberals think it’s going to be, and their fear that someone is going to lose it at them if they mess up a pronoun (unless they’re doing it willfully) is just silly. Part of navigating the world as a trans person is expecting that people will need some grace and patience. If you do your best, that’s usually pretty clear to folks, and it’s just so easy to correct yourself, and move along.
On the other hand, I was also called a “he/she/it” this week by my partner’s ex, who likes to beat her chest publicly about how she’s such a good liberal feminist, but shits all over trans people privately whenever she gets the chance. I have a theory that there is a certain kind of (usually white) woman who is so obsessed with her victimhood at the hands of men, that the idea that a person might have a more challenging gender experience (see: trans folks and BIPOC women), threatens her. I think a lot of the reactionary “women’s rights” activists emerge from the angry disbelief that someone might have it worse than them.
Also, I’m really into this content creator lately, and definitely encourage you to watch some of their videos.
@micahvalentine Replying to @cmoth17
@micahvalentine Replying to @lolbtwily
Baud
I hope you feel better soon, sir.
Ann Marie
Feel better soon. Dealing with health care can be a nightmare. Luckily for me, I had the first of a series of physical therapy sessions today and it went very well. More germane to the discussion, they asked what pronouns you use right at the top of their intake forms. Very sensible.
planet eddie
@Ann Marie: So easy, right!
planet eddie
@Baud: Thanks, sir, ma’am, gentlefriend.
MisterDancer
I was just watching a really good video about What Makes a Movie “Feminist”? that touches on the long and…challenging history where race and women’s issues intersect. From bell hooks to this other essay (PDF) I’m reading and more, there’s just a lot of intersections here that I — as a Black cis/het guy — approach with some caution, but also a lot of frustration for all the Women who seem stamped as “not good enough” in the victimhood circles you speak of.
Cameron
He called you “Sir?” Did he have tears in his eyes?
planet eddie
@MisterDancer: thanks you for sharing this! Looking forward to reading.
The intersectionality issues are very real, and I have seen many people get caught in the middle. I think this is why I look to a lot of black trans women who have spoke about this topic. I’m running out the door, but I will get some resources up in the next post !
satby
Hope you feel better soon planet eddie! I like Micah Valentine a lot, think one of my kids shared his stuff with me.
satby
I just think expected behaviors assigned to gender gets so fraught as we fight against strict conformity to them; and we’re still creating the language to separate sex from gender expectations. But I have confidence that things will continue to get better; soon I hope.
Suzanne
Yeah, those people are exhausting.
If I can opine about the specifics of bathrooms (I have been drawing and checking a metric fuckton of them this week for code compliance)….. I think part of the issue many women have around bathrooms is quite simply about quantity. It is now in the International Building Code (IBC) that there be a 50/50 split of the required quantity of toilet fixtures. Facilities can only deviate from that with specific documentation. And the required quantity of fixtures in new construction and renovation is much higher than it was than in the pre-IBC years, roughly around the late 90s/early 2000s-ish. So most adult women remember when there just, quite frankly, were not enough bathrooms in public spaces. And they were often built in really scary corridors, or with outside access only, and you went with a friend because you were scared of getting assaulted on the way to the bathroom, which was down this shitty gross alley. And it was unclean and often poorly maintained. Disabled people felt this even more acutely, because the design guide for the ADA didn’t really clarify what an accessible bathroom was until 2010.
I will note that little feminist me, who wrote for her high school newspaper, noted in that newspaper in 1997 that her high school did not have women’s restrooms in entire buildings of the facility, because that was where all the “industrial technology” and “art” classes were taught. So literally, high school girls had to miss more instructional time and go out in the rain, because there were no fucking bathrooms. (So the brilliant adults at my school saw what I wrote in the paper, and they decided to make the men’s rooms “unisex” with a key and we were all supposed to knock to enter, which was dumb as shit, because they were multi-stall restrooms.)
So I perceive a bit of fear, like “OMG, we already have so little space and now more people want it!”. Of course, the real answer is that it isn’t a competition at all, and that we can just build bathrooms that work for everyone.
AnneWith
I can’t help but wonder how Terfs & other transphobes feel about adoption: do they tell adoptive parents that the children they adopted don’t share their DNA & thus aren’t really their children?
Alison Rose
I’m so sorry for the health issues and hope you are doing okay <3
Sadly, this is 1000% accurate. As a queer cis white woman who is a white feminist but not a White Feminist™, it’s something I continually try to call out among them, and I find it’s often like talking to a brick wall. They want to believe that the only true oppression is cis men against cis women, and I cannot wrap my mind around that. It takes nothing away from the misogyny we experience to recognize that others also experience oppression, and sometimes (often) on a worse scale. Our whiteness — and for those of us who are cis, our cis-ness (……a word?) — offers massive protection in most cases, and yet so many cis white women seem to think that if they admit to that, they’re saying that they don’t experience ANYTHING bad due to their gender.
Unfortunately, I see it in less pointed ways, too, like how it’s still so difficult for a lot of liberal women to use gender-neutral language when discussing reproductive rights, even if they generally express support for the trans community. Saying “people” instead of “women” is not that hard, unless you don’t actually care.
bcw
Good comments on evolution. One thing that annoys me is when people give me the dog-eat-dog/survival of the fittest/nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw/top-dog myths about evolution. A question to ask is what characteristic unites all of the most prevalent & successful complex species on the planet? The answer is cooperative societies, whether really simple like schools of fish or elaborate things like bee hives, ant colonies, wolf and whale packs, the endless herds of things or human society. The lone wolf is a sick wolf without the pack they need to survive.
Baud
@bcw:
Evolutionary “survival of the fittest” has been misinterpreted. Aside from humans, it’s rare for one species to directly kill off another. Species mostly die off because changes in the environment either directly kills them (meteorite!) or gives another species a competitive edge.
karen marie
This is something that’s bugged me since the ’70s. I think it was one of the big failures of the feminist movement of the time (and one that continues). Instead of having a chairperson, we now have chairmen and chairwomen.
“Separate but equal” is always bullshit.
I’m a person.
FelonyGovt
I’m so sorry you’re having health issues, and having to navigate our horrible system as a trans person has to be so much harder. Feel better soon.
CaseyL
I hope you’re feeling better, and continue to get better!
The trap I used to fall into isn’t the “Who is More Oppressed?” game, but the percentage of population affected; e.g., “we have limited resources, so let’s start with the largest group that needs help.” That might work for allocating financial resources, but in terms of fighting oppression, that calculus doesn’t apply.
Ignoring one marginalized group makes it easier for fascists to go after more marginalized groups, because they figure we won’t stand up for each other. They can divide us and pick us off one by one.
And I think the White Feminists™ (thanks, Alison!) aren’t really feminists, either. What they are is a modern variant of the old Queen Bee: the one female who was “allowed” some respect primarily because she could be relied on to sabotage other women. (That old “I’m not like those horrible women! I like men who are men!” gambit.) They’re “allowed” to fight oppression, because the way they fight it is by keeping other groups out in the cold, which benefits the patriarchal white Christian, etc., power structure.
Jay
planet eddie,
I am glad that you were treated with respect, and well. I hope you get well soon.
In the late 80’s, I used to go to munches and poly meetings, and my social groups used to go to Gay Bars, where I was basically in charge of holding down the table. I got to meet and have conversations with a lot of trans people
jnfr
I’m very glad to hear you were treated well. Hope your health improves and you’re healthy soon.
narya
@Alison Rose:
And it’s not that hard to flip it around, i.e. use one’s own experience to try to understand/leave room for someone else’s experience, as a window, always with the understanding that it’s never going to match perfectly. For me, it’s also been a way to just . . . open a dialogue, to learn, to find things we share and things we don’t, and, most of all, find ways to support each other
ETA: Eddie, I’m so glad that at least some folks actually asked about your pronouns! Feel better soon!
Alison Rose
@narya: Right! Like, they hate when men speak over them and dismiss their experiences, and yet they do the same to women of color, to trans women, etc.
suzanne
@karen marie: I agree, with one caveat, and that’s around specific places/issues where women are treated like shit because they’re women. Like, around abortion. Obviously that issue drectly affects some transmen (and does not directly affect all cis women). But it’s a political issue because many powerful cis het men want to control (mostly) cis het women and force/coerce them into being sex partners and baby-makers. It’s not people hating on other people.
But, really, the caveats are pretty few and far between, and we really only need to make distinctions when meaning is lost if we do not.
Caphilldcne
Hey Eddie! Get well soon, Sir!
Jacqueline Squid Onassis
Healthcare while trans! It’s always an adventure. The worst I’ve had is crying at the people at the lab at Legacy about how to get their system to gender me correctly. The tears worked!
I’m lucky to be in Portland while trans. Over the course of the first year of the pandemic I had the pleasure of experiencing all 3 of the hospital systems in town.
OHSU is A- MAZING. They didn’t misgender me a single time. They have posters up all over the hospital about trans inclusiveness and they absolutely walk the walk. My best moment was during one of my worst moments in the 4 day stay when the guy who cleans the rooms (whatever that position is called) not only expressed empathy and sympathy for me but could share a moment of solidarity in being trans together in the moment.
Legacy comes in second for respect for trans patients. They misgendered me but never after being corrected. I call that a win.
Providence, otoh… Well, they are a Catholic organization. They just misgendered me non-stop and, post nose reconstruction, I was too zonked to put up a fight. But I sure did notice.
Until it happens to you, you can’t know what a punch in the gut it is to be misgendered at an ER or in a hospital. If I have to go to an ER again, I’m willing to make the trip across town if I’m able just so I can be in a place where I don’t have to worry.
Feel better, Eddie. One day this experience will just be a terrible memory that, with any luck, can also be a hilarious anecdote.
Ohio Mom
@Suzanne: Thank you for this:
“…most adult women remember when there just, quite frankly, were not enough bathrooms in public spaces. And they were often built in really scary corridors, or with outside access only, and you went with a friend because you were scared of getting assaulted on the way to the bathroom, which was down this shitty gross alley.”
Every time I have to hear about the danger trans girls/women present to “real” females in public restrooms, my immediate reaction is, What makes you think we have ever felt safe in public bathrooms?
Needless to say, I don’t mean that I am afraid of, or think trans girls women are dangerous, just that why weren’t these people afraid for my safety before, when I was legitimately afraid for real reasons? The truth is, I would feel safer with a trans person in the restroom I was using.
Roger Moore
I don’t think this is limited to women. There are unfortunately a lot of people who treat victimhood like it’s a competition to see who has been victimized the most. I see this as playing into the hands of the perpetrators. They get to limit the amount of reparations they’ll ever be expected to give, and they can play the different groups of victims off against each other.
The key thing is to see this for what it is. Different groups who have been victimized in the past need to band together rather than fight each other. Don’t let the perpetrators off the hook by fighting against fellow victims for whatever scraps the perpetrators dangle in front of you. Demand it all.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
❤️❤️❤️
caphilldcne
PS liking the Micah Valentine videos altho I don’t really do TikTok.
Roger Moore
@Suzanne:
I’ve said before that I think we could make all bathrooms unisex, and within a year the main arguments would be about who makes a mess and who takes too much time. Just make sure all the stalls have lockable doors that go all the way up to the ceiling and all the way down to the floor.
Betty Cracker
@Roger Moore: Crab bucket politics is definitely a thing.
sab
@Ohio Mom: Yes. There is a reason why women my age still go to public restrooms in little herds.
Gvg
@AnneWith: Some people do, some don’t and I am not sure that has anything to do with transphobia. Some families are accepting, others aren’t even now. Adoption is its own issue. I have a bunch of adopted cousins on both sides, my paternal grandmother was adopted, my parents oldest friends adopted a kid near my age. I took it for granted. I had to take classes to be a foster mom and try to adopt, and found out that lots of people still don’t accept adoption as real. The teachers recommended we find out how our relatives felt before deciding. and the people going to adopt a 2nd child told their stories. It’s still really not all people accept or treat them equally to blood grandchildren etc.
My parents friends have run into that with their stepgrandchildren being told by the other grandparents that the children’s step dad wasn’t really the friends son and that they didn’t care for the step grands either….not nice and apparently the other grandmother really believes it.
Most people do accept adoption now, but it is not universal.
Add in transphobia and I assume it gets worse.
Kay
@Alison Rose:
Yes, women are so whiny and also completely irrational! It’s like talking to a brick wall!
This must be the solidarity I’ve heard so much about. Let’s shit all over feminists now – that’s a great idea. Surely that will create a working coalition.
Roger Moore
@Betty Cracker:
With victimhood, I think there’s a definite trend in that direction anyway. The place where I notice it is when people are talking about the terrible things that were done to their people in the past. You’ll seriously get arguments about which group was devastated most by their genocide. I don’t think that starts as crab bucket politics- it’s more about letting people know your people’s story- but it can easily be twisted from “look how bad my people had it” to “my people had it worse than yours did”.
UncleEbeneezer
Love the story about being treated respectfully during your healthcare adventures. I really do, sir, yes, sir :)
Thanks for sharing the Micah videos. They are great.
FelonyGovt
@Jacqueline Squid Onassis: Not surprised by your experience with Providence, unfortunately. We have two perfectly good hospitals in this area. One (the closer one) is a Providence (i.e. Catholic) one. I won’t go there, even being an old cis-het white lady, if I have any choice in the matter.
Frankensteinbeck
‘Don’t pay attention to anyone’s victimhood but mine’ is certainly a thing. (See the It Is All Class War Left) With TERFs in particular, though, there’s something else. For people who consider men and women inherently different, the most common paradigm is ‘Men are rapists and women are victims’. This is the ‘radical’ in ‘radical feminist’. Not that they’re really strongly feminist, but that they hate men. They agree with conservative misogynists on most of the framing of gender issues, they just see themselves as fighting on the opposite side.
For people with this view of men and women, being trans can’t be legitimate, and the only thing they can imagine is men trying to use a trick to rape women more. They see trans men as just harmlessly deluded, barely worth noticing exist.
Rowling is a perfect example of a TERF this way.
Kent
@Roger Moore: It is definitely not limited to women. I think there are certain men out there who might have some kind of latent gay or trans feelings and become hyper-phobic and denial about it. And then just lash out at everyone that is more open about it than them.
bupalos
When health goes wrong, nothing is really right, so I really salute you for showing up and dropping another thought-provoking post. Though I’m also going to call you out for your NonBinaryGender-Privilege: your posts are always going to be thought-provoking, because your life is being lived in such a fundamentally interesting place. A Chinese curse. But maybe with a very real silver lining in 2023?
Hells yeah!* HELLS YEAH. And this is a message I’ve heard from my sister, who navigated an even more brutal and lonely landscape in the 80’s and 90’s. It’s a message that folks who have only been on the easy conforming gender path like me… but who have been slapped into consciousness… need to keep to mind. Making the effort matters WAY WAY WAY beyond the cost of that effort.
I think a good analogy to the cost-benefit here would be like the “cost” of taking the time to put your card in the ATM versus the payoff of the ATM shooting out fat stacks of cash at you. We’ve got a horde of frightened folks theorizing about how onerous it might be to roll up to the ATM and roll your window down and OMG reach out your hand and maybe stretch way out to get the card in there… and OMG REMEMBER THE PIN???!!!!!
….because they haven’t been there. And they are afraid. And frankly most of them have impoverished lives that have also been subject to some version of others failing them.
Those of us who have actually been there need to find our voice to both explain and laugh about what fat stacks of cash shooting out feels like and how ridiculous all that nonsense is. Without making people feel ashamed and defensive and less likely to try. We need to find the language that explains “THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT YOU JUST DON’T KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!!”
Gender freedom is also just called freedom. Human beings prefer freedom. We owe a debt to those who suffer on its front lines to expand those lines, and we’re harming ourselves when we don’t bother to do our part.
*Imna quibble with adopting “neoliberal” in this catchall way, because the term has a real meaning that keeps getting distorted and overused and expanded to where it’s just “people who voted d but who I still don’t trust, or like, or something…
Kay
@Frankensteinbeck:
Feminazis, am I right?
The “most common” view of feminists is not “men are rapists and women are victims”
Jesus. These comments. I don’t know what to think. Wow.
AnneWith
@Gvg:
I’ve heard transphobes arguing that one cannot truly change one’s gender since one cannot change one’s DNA. Nonsense, of course, but I forgot that many people are just as intolerant of adoption.
Matt McIrvin
@Roger Moore: I’m pretty sure American public restrooms usually don’t have these because they don’t actually want to give you adequate privacy–the horrible little doors with big gaps that don’t close properly are supposed to be a deterrent to someone having sex or shooting up in there.
The elementary school where I went for 3rd and 4th grade was 1950s architecture and the stalls in the boys’ room had no doors at all. I’ve always figured it was an anti-masturbationist thing, though I suppose it saved a few bucks too. Bullies and class clowns made the most of this. My response was to just hold it in all day. Since I also had a very long bus ride, it resulted in a few accidents during the last half-mile home from the bus stop.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
No, that’s the most common paradigm of misogyny, shared by too many TERFs.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Seriously though — in some cases it’s like people have discovered that adding the adjective “white” is carte blanche to shit all over women they disagree with. How handy!
lowtechcyclist
It may seem like a superficial thing, but one thing I appreciate about Micah Valentine is that he talks real fast. That makes a big difference for me; it’s a lot easier to keep listening if the words are coming at me at somewhere near the speed at which I can take them in. If they come at me at normal conversational pace, I get impatient, wish they had a transcript that I could read in a fraction of the time, and almost always say the hell with it and turn it off.
Another Scott
Feel better soon eddie!
Meanwhile, … Phys.org:
Diversity and inclusivity matters in all things. The Victorians did a number on us, and we’re all still digging out from it. And it’s hurting all of us when people can’t be themselves and do what they want with themselves.
Hang in there, everyone, and keep pushing forward.
Cheers,
Scott.
suzanne
@Matt McIrvin:
American public restrooms are built this way because it is cheaper. And it takes up less space than individual restrooms, which means…. it’s cheaper.
If y’all want, I will write a guest post about everything you could ever want to know about building bathrooms. It would be arcane and nerdy and full of boring regulation. Or y’all can take my word for it, and just know that developers hate building bathrooms because they’re non-revenue-generating and they’re expensive.
MomSense
Eddie, I hope you feel better. I really appreciate you being here with us.
karen marie
@Another Scott: Two words: beach volleyball.
Women’s beach volleyball uniforms are bikinis. Men’s beach volleyball are shorts that go almost to the knee and shirts that cover the torso.
Change is slow.
Baud
@suzanne:
I’d read it.
Roger Moore
@suzanne:
That much seems pretty obvious. One thing that’s an obvious problem is that a strict 50:50 split is unfair to women, since women take longer to pee. Anyone who has paid the slightest bit of attention knows which bathroom almost always has a longer line, and we ought to change the rules about bathroom size to correct the disparity.
Alison Rose
@Kay: Whoa, what the fuck? So, in your world, feminism means never criticizing women even when they’re being racist or transphobic? You do realize you are perfectly embodying exactly what we’re talking about here, right?
Newsflash: Not all women are perfect. Some of them are pieces of shit. And you are God damn right I’m not engaging in “solidarity” with them. If YOU will accept racism, transphobia, homophobia, ableism, classism, etc in the name FEMINISM UBER ALLES, then you can piss off.
Baud
@Roger Moore:
How are urinals calculated?
Alison Rose
@Betty Cracker: Betty, come on. That is NOT what’s meant by it and you fucking know that. And we’re not talking about “disagreements” like whether to change the name of “manhole covers” or whatever. We’re talking about prejudice. Are you of the belief that women cannot exhibit bigoted beliefs toward others? I would hope not. So if a woman is being racist or otherwise bigoted, we should ignore it in favor of feminist solidarity?
What the hell is happening here.
Kay
@Alison Rose:
White Feminsists are all bad but you’re a white feminist so one of the good ones. Okey doke. Whatever that means.
No one has to shit all over feminists to prove they support trans rights. Why are you pulling feminists in at all? Because they’re acceptable to bash?
lowtechcyclist
@suzanne:
I’m old enough to remember pay toilets in public restrooms. We’d better not remind developers of that.
Kay
It isn’t “feminists” who are passing anti trans laws in statehouses. Ron DeSantis isn’t a feminist. Christopher Rufo isn’t a feminist.
But they’re a good punching bag, I guess.
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
I do miss the pay vibrating beds in motel rooms though.
suzanne
@Baud: Urinals can substitute for a specific percentage of toilets in multi-stall restrooms only.
Total number of fixtures per floor is calculated based on occupant load, which is itself calculated by area divided by a load factor determined by use of space. Ergo, a warehouse and a nightclub might be the same size, but a nightclub would be required to have more fixtures.
Then, a certain percentage of fixtures are required to be accessible (ADA), also dependent on occupancy type.
Alison Rose
@Kay: I did not say “all white feminists are bad”. And yes, I am a white woman who is a feminist. I also did not say “I am the only good feminist”. Don’t put words in my mouth to try to make your argument.
I am not “shitting all over feminists to prove I support trans rights”. I am pointing out that there have unfortunately been a significant number of women who have been transphobic, and that they will often do it under the guise of feminist praxis. That is a thing that happens, and it’s bad. And I will call it out. I am opposed to transphobia no matter who it comes from. Just because it comes from a feminist woman doesn’t make it okay.
I am not bashing feminists. I am a fucking feminist. I am offering a critique of women who use feminism in a way that harms others. I seriously do not understand why this is so controversial to you
ETA I’m out. I am not going to keep arguing with you if you believe that to be a feminist, one must never ever criticize anything a woman does. And especially to come into this post and talk about how mean people are being to cis women is really rich.
suzanne
@Roger Moore:
Agreed. But just getting to parity was a social struggle.
That’s my point…. I think some women are scared of losing tenuous gains.
lowtechcyclist
@karen marie:
That’s so obviously and disgustingly sexist. It’s all about getting men to watch women’s sports by making the women dress up in a way the men can drool over. That is just so fucked up.
MomSense
@Alison Rose:
Same as it ever was. I think people forget who Sojourner Truth was addressing when she delivered her Ain’t I a Woman address.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
It sure is ‘radical feminists’ who are working hand in hand with the worst bigots to pass anti-trans laws in Britain, giving them huge cover in the public conversation. Again, see J K Rowling.
planet eddie
@bupalos: Ah! Yes, nonbinary privilege is real, but has other challenges. IE, I was hospitalized once for mental illness, and due to my top-surgery and the testosterone I was on, they felt unsafe putting me with a female roomate, but due to my genitalia, the men’s ward was unsafe. I spent almost 3 days sleeping on the floor or across 2 chairs in the ER at night, and I wasn’t able to actually see a psychiatrist so that I could get released.
Because of how I present, I can be very confusing to people and it can create a lot of hostility and blowback, more than that of a trans person who passes as one or the other gender, if that makes sense. I was publicly assaulted twice (once resulting in a concussion) due to looking “queer” or as a “woman with a mustache.”
I don’t have the luxury of passing, which is why going to the hospital is always so upsetting, and was quite surprising this time!
Sister Golden Bear
Hope you feel better soon
Glad you had a good experience, sadly that’s far from common as you’ve noted. Thankfully, my local healthcare group has always been good in that respect — in fact, when I come out to my original GP there, I found out he was part of an internal group coming up with trans-friendly policies.
And everyone should get to “Daddy” sometimes, whatever “Daddy” is for them. <evil grin>
Definitely agree. It’s extremely clear that many British TERFs hold that view. It’s also inconceivable to them that anyone would want to give up male privilege to live as a woman. It threatens their worldview to the core, because if trans women want to live as women, then maybe, just maybe, that just might mean that middle-class white mums might not be the worst victims in history ever. So there must be a sinister reason for doing so.
Kay
@Frankensteinbeck:
Absolutely. Feminists suck. Mad because they can’t play the victim card.
Those electoral victories in PA and WI and MI? The victories that also protect trans rights? That was feminists. They did that.
Princess
@Kay: Thank you.
Suzanne
@planet eddie: Spawn the Elder was boarded for almost 3.5 days in an ED stretcher, waiting for a bed in a psychiatric hospital. Because he is trans, the facility wouldn’t let him share a room, so he basically had to wait for two beds. OTOH, he got a room to himself.
Psych hospitals are the only hospitals (in new construction) that are allowed to put two patients in one room (in most states).
Kay
Just in general you think this about womens rights activists? We “emerge from the angry disbelief that someone might have it worse than them”?
Well, I’m a womens rights activist and I reject your depiction of me and what I think, so that’s at least one womens rights activist you failed at mindreading.
Kay
I don’t actually consider myself a victim – never have- so I don’t do any victim ranking so am not upset that others may have it worse. Just FYI. “Victim” never did shit for me. It’s not a powerful place to stand.
Sister Golden Bear
@Matt McIrvin:
The not-quite-to-floor partitions and doors were invented by Frank Lloyd Wright to make them more compact and cheaper to build as Suzanne pointed out, as well as to make it easier and faster for the janitorial staff — and therefore reducing maintenance costs. Probably the biggest driver of its spread, although certainly there are bars and clubs have them to (in theory) reduce drug use and sex in restrooms. Not that it’s particularly effective.
Suzanne
@Sister Golden Bear: They also allow for fewer lights and much less ductwork, since you can use one exhaust fan for multiple toilets.
Bathrooms are expensive, y’all.
Suzanne
@Sister Golden Bear: In retail settings, there’s also concern about theft, so partitions are often as high as is allowed. In big restrooms, like in a stadium, it’s easier to have one big room with two dozen toilets and have one or two floor drains where any overflow water can run, and one big chase down the back to service all the toilets. Having individual toilet rooms reduces much of that efficiency. So I get why many developers don’t want to do it.
My advice: if you go to a place that has a restroom setup that you like, and there is some way to comment… do. Short of code changes, which are glacial, what will change, say, a retail developer’s mindset is knowing that an amenity is appreciated. They’ll be more likely to build it the next time.
Exhausted
@Kay: I have an angry disbelief that someone has it worse than me…namely all the women out there who are seeing their rights and humanity taken away more and more each day. I have an angry disbelief that we’re still fighting this when my mother had to do it 60 years ago but now you also have to be sure you’re the right kind of white feminist.
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay: There’s a big different between white women who are feminist and White (Cis Het) Feminists™ — which Alison Rose was clearly using to refer to a specific type of women.
The latter are why some Black feminists prefer to refer to themselves as Womanists instead because they were fed up with some white feminists refusing to take racism into consideration. The concept of intersectional feminism was also developed in response to them — a major reason again was to point out how people can be oppressed in some ways, i.e. being a woman, being queer, being poor, and privileged in other ways, being a white woman, being a wealthy woman, being a straight woman. (As well as how men can also be both privileged in some ways and oppressed in others.) “White lady yoga” has also been critiqued in yoga circles by both POC and fat activists for cultural appropriation and fat shaming. All of these go back decades.
This isn’t being divisive, this is critiquing feminists who behave badly — especially when they use feminist as a cover for doing so.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of British TERFs are white, are middle-class, are middle-aged, and are cloaking their biological essentialist, their gender policing (of both trans and cis women) and their reactionary views of gender, in “feminism.”
The Up and Up
@Jacqueline Squid Onassis:
That was my experience with Providence too. A long involved process to get an x-ray as there was no information station anymore just official check-in. I had to declare a religion also. I should have said Pagan. At radiology they looked at the “paperwork” and threw it into the shredder as my doctor had already faxed over the correct info and requests.
A broken rib. *rage*
LauraToo
I dropped by to say how delighted I am to see your posts! I don’t usually get to anything BJ related until days later but wanted to make a point of dropping in to cheer you on. I’m sorry that you ended up in hospital, but I am grateful to know you were treated respectfully.
Sister Golden Bear
@Suzanne: Both points make total sense. Thanks for sharing them.
Ironically, one of the leading queer bars in SF, Oasis, opted to have a single unisex bathroom with stalls that full-length portions and doors (although they may be an air gap at the top for ventilation and a small drain gap at the bottom, I don’t remember offhand). No urinals.
Partly for “political” reasons — the owners wanted to promote an all-gender environment at the club — but there might have been some cost savings by building a single restroom.
Eduardo
Glad you were treated with respect, planet eddie. and rooting for you to get well soon.
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay:
Again, this description is of a specific subset of women who call themselves feminists. And having read, and been personally the target of, far too much TERF rhetoric, it is an accurate critique of these particular feminist-appropriating women.
planet eddie
@Suzanne: that’s exactly what happened to me. It was one of the most horrible experiences of my life.
Suzanne
@Sister Golden Bear: I know that normies do not really appreciate how much of building is really about cost control. Budgets — both the money budget and thus the space budget — are always watched very carefully. Every square foot that is built has to be useful. Nothing is an accident. When you walk through a shopping mall, there have been calculations done to accommodate specific quantities of people, and the width of that walkway is intentional. And equipment, and merchandise, etc etc etc. We calculate floor plates to minimize use of steel, and reduce quantities of expensive foundations. And there’s a thousand things like this.
So the issue with bathrooms is that they’re required, but that they aren’t the primary purpose of the building. The building is used to make money. That could be to lease to a company for their office, or to a retailer to show their merchandise, or two more tables in a restaurant, or a bed for a psych hospital to treat a patient, whatever. Every square foot spent on a bathroom is a square foot that isn’t being used to make money. So the incentives are really strong to do the minimum that is required.
Suzanne
@planet eddie: I’m so sorry. It was brutal for Spawn, too. I spent as much time as they would allow me with him.
There is still such a shortage of psychiatric beds in this country that patients back up in EDs for a long time.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
I don’t need a lecture on feminism, thanks. I’m aware of intersectionality. I’ve read a lot – A LOT- of feminism but thanks for assuming I came into this cold with no background. It’s patronizing.
I’m sick of this turning into just another way to bash women and for one group of woman to assert their superiority over another. Appending “white” to the front of a big anti woman rant doesn’t change the fact that it’s a big anti woman rant, complete with ridiculous, demeaning stereotypes of middle or upper middle class women.
This is not the way to form a durable coalition. You can’t jettison 3/4’s of women and deem them unacceptable and expect political success. Good luck with that.
Another Scott
@Baud:
I think this counts as “one”.
Cheers,
Scott.
Exhausted
@Kay: I have an angry disbelief that someone has it worse…the women in this country who are losing more and more of their rights and humanity every day. I have an angry disbelief that my mother was fighting this 60+ years ago and we’re still fighting and now having to hope we’re the right kind of white feminist.
Sister Golden Bear
@Suzanne:
I’m not exactly a normie because I enjoy watching YouTube video on both industrial design and architecture, since they’re conceptually adjacent to the work I do. In fact, last night I watched a video about a 25-story residential skyscraper that’s constructed primarily of wood beams for its structure rather than traditional concrete. Aside from other reasons, despite some of the hassles, it turned out to be cheaper and faster to build that way. Far small construction crew, far less wasted materials, plus (although they didn’t touch on it) faster turnaround between the construction loans being taken out by the developer and income coming in as the units were sold or rented.
Makes sense. I haven’t been to Oasis in a while, but if I recall correctly, a single restroom may have enabled them to use a layout with a few more square feet for making money space because the single entrance took away less of the club area, particular when there’s table seating for shows.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
It’s bullshit. If I said to you “I have a theory about a certain group of trans people..” and then went on to put forth this incredibly ungenerous and malicious MOTIVE that I believe this ill-defined group have you would object.
This is my objection to you doing that to women. You can couch it in elaborate explanations if you want- it’s another of the myriad ways to bash women and remain socially acceptable. I would never do that to trans folks.
livewyre
@Kay: Instead of going to the motives of whoever’s involved, then, I would ask: how do we address the reactionary, bio-essentialist “gender critical” philosophy that self-identifies as feminism and at the same time specifically and stridently denies the right of trans people to exist? Is it too divisive for us to criticize it due to it being called feminism by its adherents, or is it not actually a form of feminism as broadly understood, or what other way to look at it is there without “views differ on who should exist”?
MisterDancer
@Kay: I’ve read your comments here on and off for the last hour. And I confess I cannot grasp how to provide any critique of Feminists who do hold openly racist or transphobic views in the frame you’re setting up.
So I’m asking for your advice on this, because you have clearly studied and considered this topic. And if you can help clarify that for me, I’d honestly appreciate the effort. As I noted up top I do try to put in the work, the study and listening, so this is not just me asking out of laziness and inability to go ask in general — I’m just stuck on this approach of yours, from what you’ve said today.
planet eddie
@Kay: I’m not sure if you’re trolling or misinformed, but many women who claim they are feminists are actively transphobic, and are actively fighting against trans rights. See: THE UK.
No one here is attacking actual feminists, we are saying that Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists are a real problem. You’re getting upset over… ?
planet eddie
@Kay: you see that I put “women’s rights” in quotes, right?
Like you realize that I’m talking about people who say they are for women’s rights, but then only look out for the “right kind” of women. I’m really not sure why you’re getting defensive.
planet eddie
@Exhausted: please actually read what I wrote. I am specifically talking about a woman who called me, a trans person, an “it.”
I put “women’s rights” in quotes.
J R in WV
@Gvg:
No kids here, but… Would be the last trip to that family residence ever. Last evil straw, telling my kid they were not really related and don’t count… fuck that shit! Never going back !!!
planet eddie
@Kay: I AM NOT GOING TO BE IN A COALITION WITH PEOPLE WHO REFER TO ME AS “IT.”
Gvg
@karen marie: skin cancer. Not fair. Also I enjoyed bikinis until I was in my 40’s but they would not have worked for volleyball. Want to compete, shorts and shirt.
Princess
@livewyre: Easy. We call them TERFs. That’s what they are. Their views about trans people emerge from radical feminism, which was deeply essentializing. I have no use for people who talk about White Feminism and lump together in people like Hillary Clinton and Ivanka Trump. Most of the people I see doing it are themselves white women trying to score brownie points for themselves by bashing other women.
Gvg
@J R in WV: step grand kids so they had no say and even the son had to walk carefully. I am not sure which parent they were the parent of but…
Friends just try to be a good caring example. In the end, I suspect that will count.
J R in WV
@Kay:
So at times here this evening it seems like you are saying no women are anti-trans, or that we can’t have a descriptive term for women who hate trans women. Or what?
I’m so confused by your anger here where folks are trying to be calm about trans jackels having a bad time in health care. Surely you are aware that there is a huge wave of hate towards all the trans community? And some of that hate is from women hating on trans women…
I gotta go now, I can’t stand this any more. Srry folks.
planet eddie
@Kay:
hoo boy, I am trying not to lose my cool because you’re basically behaving like my mother.
I have spent my entire life as an AFAB non-binary person being treated like shit by cis-white women. Yes, not ALL women, but MANY women. Women have told me I’m hurting the cause, I’m taking space from them, I’m lying, I’m doing it for attention, I’m a sexist, I’m misogynistic, I’m mutilating my body, I’m abandoning them as women, etc etc etc…
I. AM. A. FEMINIST. I am a proud feminist. I believe in intersectional feminism and I know that women’s rights go hand in hand with trans rights.
I’ve also studied the history of feminism, and the horrible racism and transphobia that many cis and cis-hey women — yes, usually white — engaged in.
And it is insulting to everyone here on this thread who knows a single thing about what is happening to trans people because of TERFS — yes, largely cis-het white women — in the UK, RIGHT NOW, or who have read a SINGLE BOOK on how the women’s right movement — it is INSULTING for you to pretend that I’m actually attacking the AMAZING WOMEN and AMAZING FEMINISTS that I love and am in solidarity with and to throw a narcissistic pity party in the comments about how I’m a mean trans person.
THE WOMAN CALLED ME AN IT. I DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN SOLIDARITY WITH WOMEN WHO DEHUMANIZE ME OR ANYONE ELSE.
MisterDancer
That seems like table stakes for any unified effort, to me. Dehumanizing the people in your group working for justice…just isn’t.
I’m just baffled by all of this.
planet eddie
@Princess: I was referring in my post to a white woman who called me an “it,” in a conversation with her other female friends, and I was lumping her together with her and all her friends who, yes, call themselves “women’s rights activists.”
livewyre
@Princess: I mean, there’s an intersection between whiteness (as exemption from race rather than a self-affirming identity, according to theory) and trans-exclusion in pretty much every field of advocacy including feminism. None of these things is isolated or exempt from systemic prejudice. Systemic prejudice is a different subject from the individuals who engage in it (i.e. everybody, in various and intersecting ways).
I suspect that part of what got hackles raised was the invocation of “usually white” as a qualifier, implicitly invoking race dynamics, which is not necessarily a discussion that even those generally in favor of trans rights are always ready for. Now it’s an attack on “white people” in general, and now it’s an attack on women in general, and now it’s an attack on Hillary Clinton. How dare you people, etc., when the point had nothing to do with characterization in the first place.
Gvg
@planet eddie: multiple people chimed in with white women feminists are so bad stories. So it’s not just what you said and it is a pile on which as you know is pretty upsetting anyway.
What you said is pretty wide ranging too. Now trans people have started from an even lower social status than I remember gay people had before aids and they haven’t made it yet so you have in fact been attacked by almost everyone even those who should know better. Even those who are almost Ally’s now, weren’t a few years ago, right? So chance are you, not everyone else here, but you and other trans may have been attacked by most of those you need as allies. However this has happened a few other times, and Kay, well I am not going to speak for her, I am pretty damn tired of it. The others should not be pissing on all white women quite so often just cause it makes them feel superior or something. The democratic coalition has a LOT of reliable white female voters and has had for decades, and we also have provided some actual elected people who do work. So there are some bigots, that’s a fact, they aren’t the whole. Insulting nice people over and over gets on their nerves.
And Eddie, I can cut you more slack than some other people, but maybe I should tell you that I am a white cis woman and sort of quiet except on line where I guess I ramble too much. You can’t see what we are through the internet, so you would not know.
Barbara
@planet eddie: You don’t have to be in solidarity with people who call you it. Totally agree. But the rest of us who would sooner die than refer to anyone as “it” don’t like being lumped with those who do. Collective guilt is never cool.
I hate it when SC gets on her high horse about white women. I’m not singling you out.
planet eddie
@Gvg: I appreciate your words, but if a woman was speaking about a sexist incident that happened between her and a man, and John came in here and started to say “NOT ALL WHITE MEN–”
…how would you feel?
planet eddie
@Barbara: I wasn’t lumping anyone in, I talked about a certain kind of woman who I have a tremendous amount of experience dealing with. I literally put “women’s rights” in quotes.
I didn’t lump anyone in, @Kay assumed I did, and ya’ll just… went along with it.
Barbara
@Sister Golden Bear: The original post was not clear on that at all – that it was referring to a well defined subset of feminists known as TERFs, mostly but not all white (which would also well describe the demographic makeup of the UK where TERFs seem to be more visible).
My usual policy when I read about the experience of marginalized groups is, basically, shut up and listen, I have more to learn than offer in the way of insight.
But I feel like Eddie was ascribing collective responsibility to “white feminists,” and in general, think it’s best to avoid overly generalizing any group. I don’t see the value of it.
Barbara
@planet eddie: Your post talked in detail about specific women and you generalized from there. That’s how I read it. I wasn’t personally offended by it because I thought it was careless phrasing on your part rather than animus, but I don’t think it conveyed the qualifiers that you subsequently added. This isn’t an argument about identity but language.
planet eddie
@Barbara: I’m talking about my experience with US-based white feminists.
It’s not a generalization when it’s my lived experience, and the documented lived experience of a lot of trans people.
Barbara
@planet eddie: But you introduced race into the discussion. I’ve had plenty of discussions with people who insist on including racial characterizations when calling out bad behavior and I always try to push back when they do that. No, they aren’t usually dissing white people.
C Stars
@Kay: Wow, that isn’t how I read any of this commentary! Every commenter who has written here has been very specific with their language in identifying a subset of feminists who use that designation as a cover for hating trans people.
livewyre
@planet eddie: I for one knew what you were getting at originally, but that may be because I’m loosely acquainted with some elements of theory that may not be as commonplace as both of us prefer.
For general consumption: the norm (in this example, systemic racism) is to view whiteness as one purely innate category among many, that happens to hold a dominant position by sheer accident. Much like patriarchy, this leads to a “not all” view where an attack on the category becomes an attack on everyone who claims it.
But these pigeonholes aren’t innate and aren’t equally exercised. Between them, one is claimed and one is imposed. “Not all men” impose gender, yet gender falls on women to do the work of (and men to stay “clean” of). “Not all whites” impose race, yet, guess what.
Of course this is a loose analogy and there are myriad aspects where it doesn’t translate from race to gender or vice versa. But when we speak of “white” or “usually white” in an activist context, we speak of the relation of dominance, not all those nice and lovely folks who don’t have a racist bone in their body and would be horrified to be lumped in with a common bigot. There’s a system to this stuff that none of us get to tap out of. With power comes responsibility – or at least, that’s the theory.
Barbara
@planet eddie: ”I have a theory that there is a certain kind of woman (usually white) . . .” is a generalization about women who have been part of your lived experience. It may be valid but it’s still a generalization.
planet eddie
@Barbara: There is a huge amount of research and theory to back this up, but I think I’m done here at this website.
Thanks.
Lyrebird
@Barbara: Hi Barbara, I’ve learned a lot from your posts over the years. I don’t want to pile on, I just want to add that I read Eddie’s original post as talking about the reactionary ones, as stated, within a group, not all the members of that group.
Eddie, if you’re still reading any of this, I don’t know what it’s like to wear your shoes, but I do feel more sting from a betrayal from someone who claims to be on the same side than from a declared enemy. Thanks a ton for the videos and the post, too!
Barbara
@planet eddie: I can accept your experience as true without agreeing that it entitles you to generalize its significance.
Barbara
@Lyrebird: In the spirit of charity I did too, but I don’t think it was nearly that clear and I understand the pushback.
Omnes Omnibus
Let’s, perhaps, learn from what happened to ABL here and try not to repeat it?
C Stars
@planet eddie: I am so sorry and shocked this happened on this thread. I truly cannot understand where all of this rage is coming from. I’ve encountered Black men who are transphobic and Chinese women who are transphobic but on a day to day basis, 99% of the folks who say awful things to me about trans people are women, white, and setting forth these views under the guise of “feminism.” Now, I don’t for a minute think they speak for all feminists–but to deny that this is a phenomena that actually happens, and to ascribe acknowledging it as being somehow unfair to white women just seems bizarrely naive and obtuse. It also seems to me to rather unfortunately prove the very point that you were making 😕
I have been so happy to see your posts here and your perspective adds so much value and knowledge and experience to this blog. Please don’t let all this weird rage chase you away. But also please take care of yourself and do what you need to do to recover. I am sending love and healing vibes.
CaseyL
Holy shit, people. You just drove off planeteddie with your blockheaded misreading of what they said, your inability to acknowledge that what they said is true, and your really, incredibly, ghastly anger at them for saying it.
And, yes YES YES there are indeed white women who present as feminists but who are saboteurs. I’ve met them, planeteddie has sure as hell met them, if you haven’t met any then you’re goddamn lucky.
I wish this was unbelievable, but as Omnes just said, we did the same goddamn thing to ABL.
Jesus. Fucking. Christ
@planet eddie: I am so sorry this pile-on happened. It makes me sick and angry. Your posts – your experience, your insights, your opinions – are valuable, and I enjoy them very much. I hope you reconsider and stay, but can certainly understand if you don’t.
Alison Rose
@Barbara: Read the line you quoted, for God’s sake. “A certain kind of woman (usually white)”
Do you not know what those two words mean? This was very clearly meant to highlight a specific and delineated group amongst women as a whole, and often amongst white women as a whole. How anyone could read that carefully worded sentence as a “generalization” is beyond me.
If I said, “There is a certain kind of vehicle, usually trucks, that make my windows rattle when they drive past”, would that sound like I was saying “Every single motorized conveyance on the road makes my windows rattle”?
I swear to the Lord above.
Nora Lenderbee
@Kay: THank you.
db11
Wow, that was depressing as fuck. I’m so disappointed in people that I otherwise respect. Not their finest hour.
@planet eddie, just want to add my voice in support for your badly-needed efforts to educate us on trans issues. So unfortunate that the thread was driven into the ditch by a small number of commenters.
Echoes of ABL indeed.
db11
Wow, that was depressing as fuck. I’m so disappointed in people that I otherwise respect. Not their finest hour.
@planet eddie, just want to add my voice in support for your badly-needed efforts to educate us on trans issues. So unfortunate that the thread was driven into the ditch by a small number of commenters.
Echoes of ABL indeed.
db11
Wow, that was depressing as fuck. I’m so disappointed in people that I otherwise respect. Not their finest hour.
@planet eddie, just want to add my voice in support for your badly-needed efforts to educate us on trans issues. So unfortunate that the thread was driven into the ditch by a small number of commenters.
Echoes of ABL indeed.
db11
Wow, that was depressing as fuck.
So unfortunate that the thread was driven into the ditch by a small number of commenters.
I’m so disappointed in people that I otherwise respect. Not their finest hour.
@planet eddie, just want to add my voice in support for your badly-needed efforts to educate us on trans issues. Echoes of ABL indeed.
db11
Sorry about the multiple posts – the ‘Post Comment’ button wasn’t responding.
If someone with admin rights can clean them up, I’d appreciate it.
C Stars
All the evil shit on this thread sidetracked me, so I’m coming back here to say what I wanted to say: I came to read this post because accessing healthcare while trans is a very real issue for many of us. Our family lives in the bluest of blue cities in the bluest of blue states and the one place where I can reliably expect that my child will get misgendered (and, not infrequently, treated disrespectfully because of their gender), is at the doctor’s office. When I bring this to the attention of anyone in a management position, or even to the doctors, they act shocked: “That would never happen! We are all educated on treating all patients! We have a field for pronouns at the top of the intake page!” It’s some weird mix of wishful thinking and gaslighting. Like, I’m telling you the receptionist misgenders my kid every fucking time we come, but you’re telling me that’s not actually happening? Just as you describe, some visits we’ll have the kindest, completely keyed-in receptionists/nurses/doctors ever, but then the pharmacist decides to insist we shout my kid’s old name over and over again through the plexiglass. It’s always a mixed bag. I hope the industry comes up with some inclusive patient interaction models soon, and requires all employees to adhere to those standards.
And also I wanted to thank you for alerting me to the videos of Micah Valentine. Those are fantastic!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Omnes Omnibus:
Bingo. I am really surprised at how this went sideways and those who took it there. I feel like some people are reading what they want to into what eddie wrote and choosing to react to their interpretation of it. I understood that there was no broad brush being deployed, just pointed commentary in a conversation here.
Please stay, eddie. Your voice needs to be heard, don’t let it be silenced because some people have an issue with something you said or how it was said.
Stella
Long time lurker, and just yikes.
For those attacking planeteddie, I’d really recommend taking a hard look at the TERF movement. Your arguments are just generically in line with theirs, like it came from JK herself. Unless you already know and agree with them, of course.
And if you know about TERFs and don’t agree with them, maybe examine why everyone else here sees your words as aligned with them and if there’s maybe something you should work on.
Betty Cracker
@Alison Rose:
Not at all; it happens a lot!
But having read this entire thread and the second one posted later, it seems like folks who basically agree are talking past each other, which creates misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I don’t want to contribute to that, so I’m gonna peace out.
Gvg
@planet eddie: that wasn’t what you were doing though. Over and over, you keep phrasing it in a way that equates that one incident involving your partners ex? as representing all white feminist women. That’s what is coming through. Not that you had a bigot and her friends attack you, which is awful and we sympathize with but that all of us are doing it and we didn’t and are resentful of the accusation.
@planet eddie: that is not what you are doing though. You are saying you were attacked by specific women and then restating it as mostly feminist white women. It is the restating that is the problem. Like a police description that can be almost every black male in the city, that description is uncalled for. Stick with the lessor description of using more words, like “a subset” or “within” or “I encountered”, it’s worth the trouble.
I am not the best writer myself, you are usually better by far. So all I can tell you is this time the whole thread was making a different impression than just your own opinion. You did come off as a little dismissive of white women feminists but I could see your reasons, but then everyone else started piling on and those were less excusable and more smug and well, wrong. Then you added more and others tried to push back. That’s how it seemed to me.
I do not read feminist literature or care. My view of feminism is the lived practical. I am of equal value. My mother was and had fewer choices because of the times she grew up in and her generation tried to change things. This is why I skip over some of what you talk about in feminism. My view is more about pay and leave structure and anti harassment legislation. I think you are into a social academic depth of it I don’t follow. My acquaintances are mostly feminist in that they think women should get equal pay, have equal rights and just don’t think that’s in question and tend to be working women. A lot of them are white. They have not been TERF’s in spite of the worries here. (Florida)
PaulB
No, it really isn’t bullshit. What *is* bullshit is your overreaction.
TERFs exist and they do, in fact, have “incredibly ungenerous and malicious motives.” I have no idea why this is so much of a problem for you.
PaulB
Nope. In fact, they explicitly said that they were not, in fact, “representing all white feminist women.” Stop with the strawman tactics.
Spanish Moss
This thread has taken a disturbing turn and I agree that people are talking past each other, but I have to say that I found this part of the post to be inflammatory:
I was pretty shocked at the idea that a substantial subset of feminists view themselves as victims. Is this subset substantial? If not, why write about it in this post?
I know a lot of female feminists and I can’t think of a one who views herself as a victim. Hence we are not comparing ourselves to other victims. We are fighters. I am a CIS female in my sixties, so perhaps my view is generational. I work in a male dominated tech field and my career has certainly been affected by being female, but nevertheless I want nothing to do with a victim identity for myself.
I realize that Eddie was not trying to offend me and probably didn’t mean this theory to apply as broadly as it came across to me and some others. I don’t really know who Eddie classifies as “reactionary”. Maybe some of these terms have precise meaning in feminist or trans theory, but I am not up on that.
I really appreciated this post in general, and I value Eddie’s insights, but I could have done without this theory. I suspect that Eddie probably didn’t realize the extent to which these lines could be misinterpreted.
Paul in KY
@Alison Rose: I think they just don’t care about non-cis misogyny against non-cis people.
Paul in KY
@J R in WV: I think she might be saying that the ‘anti-trans’ women are still better for women/trans folk (in general) than the male MAGA choads like DeSatanis & his ilk who wield the real power. Or maybe that these ‘anti-trans’ women will still do more good for women/trans folks than the evil male rightwing loons who are doing the vast majority of anti-women legislating.
The enemy (anti-trans women) of my real enemy (male DeSatanis types) is my friend sorta thing.
Paul in KY
@Gvg: I think Planet Eddie was saying their stuff as a ‘if the shoe fits, wear it’ kind of thing. If you are not one of those condescending TERFs he was opining about, then he wasn’t talking about you (IMO).
Bobby Thomson
@Spanish Moss: You’re lying. They never said a “substantial set,” they said “a certain kind.” Yes, they exist. Yes, they’re all over TERF Twitter. Then they went on to refer to most “reactionary ‘womens’ rights’ activists.” Do you consider yourself reactionary? If so, the post was about you, and you should feel bad about yourself. If not, it wasn’t, and you should STFU. Nothing inflammatory about it.
Bobby Thomson
No, they didn’t. Go back and read it again. They definitely did not. You’re lying.
I agree that putting words in planeteddie’s mouth that were never said is the problem here.
livewyre
@Bobby Thomson: Opposing reactionism is inflammatory, to be fair. Existentially so. For it.
Thursday
@Spanish Moss: I obviously can’t say for certain, but I think a lot of this has to do with how much you see the subset he’s talking about in the wild.
The trick here was the word reactionary. I knew immediately what he meant, and many others did too. To me this reads as just a shorthand for TERFs and TERF adjacent feminism, which does exist and is basically exactly like he said. People who firmly believe in women as a weak victim class in a way that’s honestly both gross and sad. Trans people are bad because maleness is essential and inherently dangerous. Women will always be in danger so long as men exist. That sort of thing. JK Rowling has become their figurehead, and it’s a major component of modern discourse.
I’d honestly really like to see Kay actually talk about that segment rather than just rehash anger. Does she not think those people exist? They exist, but they’re not really feminist? They are feminist but attacking them with without being more specific is what’s bad? I honestly don’t know how Kay wants those specific groups talked about.
Spanish Moss
@Thursday: Thanks so much for your thoughtful explanation, and you are right. I just learned about TERF on the later BJ thread on this topic. I didn’t recognize the keywords, and I haven’t met any of these people “in the wild” (love that phrase!). This has been an education.