I am not going to be in solidarity with a person who calls me an “it.” Period. No matter how many times she votes democrat.
Some light midnight reading for folks who are acting like all of this is brand new from “Women-Identified Women” by Emma Heaney.
I’m going to bed.
satby
Absolutely you shouldn’t, and you shouldn’t be expected to. I’m so sorry.
different-church-lady
I’m really sorry to hear about this, Eddie. Seems every time we get a someone around here writing for an oppressed group they end up taking stupid shit. Illegitimi non carborundum.
Alison Rose
I’m sorry that your incredibly important and vulnerable post turned into a pity party by people who apparently have never heard the phrase “If it’s not about you, don’t make it about you”.
When people of color talk about racist white people, I don’t take it personally because I know I do my best to be anti-racist and I also am always open to criticism about how I could do better.
When liberals living in red states talk about blue-state Dems who are snide and dismissive of them and say things like “just secede already”, I don’t take it personally because I don’t engage in that behavior.
When trans and otherwise gender-expansive folks talk about the harm that cisnormativity does to their lives, I don’t take it personally because I try to use my cis privilege to dismantle that system and again am always willing to hear when and where I may have slipped up.
And when people in more marginalized communities talk about the harm that SOME WHITE WOMEN do through their narrow-minded version of feminism — which at best ignores and at worst actively harms POC, trans people, and others — I do not take it personally because I know that is not the feminism I practice.
I don’t make it about me because I know it’s not about me. I let people speak their piece and I listen and absorb it because for the love of God, it is the least I can fucking do. Going full-throated #NOTALLWHITEWOMEN is an embarrassing, ignorant, and petty way to respond when someone who is at greater risk in our society points out that some people in a broad group you are part of have at times been the cause of that risk.
Christ on a bike, people.
Thank you, eddie, for your posts and your openness and your existence. I hope we get to continue to hear from you. Those of us who don’t have our fingers jammed in our ears have greatly appreciated your presence.
different-church-lady
@Alison Rose:
Rotating tag, please.
Omnes Omnibus
I went and looked. That thread went sideways very fast.
wonkie
It’s really a shame that the thread went sideways like that. Thank you, Eddie, for the post.
Omnes Omnibus
FWIW, I think your voice is valuable here. Please do not walk away.
@ the Jackal Community at large: I would like to think that everyone learned something from the ABL situation. Driving off a minority front pager is not a good look.
Major Major Major Major
Ugh, that’s awful.
Also I seem to have missed your introduction, welcome!
scav
@Omnes Omnibus: and determinedly dug sideways.
eclare
Wait, wut? I missed that post, but based on this I am so sorry for what you went through.
Alison Rose
@Omnes Omnibus: ABL was going through my mind as that thread was devolving.
Barbara
@Alison Rose: Sure, that’s my usual view — I know I am not like that so I try to move along. I suppose that when I come here I feel I should be able to point out when language is imprecise and potentially off-putting. This is a blog not an academic journal, and precision isn’t the be all and end all of our lives, so I will stop.
Eddie, please don’t leave.
Jacel
@different-church-lady: On Palm Sunday would Jesus have ridden a bicycle it he had one rather than an ass? If Jesus had a capybara big enough to ride that day, I think it would have been closer to his overall message than any other transport.
Ishiyama
I missed the beginning of this discussion. But I am a child of the 1950s and I experienced the wave of social change that liberated my generation & the following ones. I remember at first hand the debates and rages that took place over every step towards a more open world for the outliers and rare souls who existed in our midst, for the most part hidden. “They say that freedom is a constant struggle. I’ve been struggling so long, I must be free.” I wish you well.
Jacel
@Omnes Omnibus: Angry Black Lady (ABL) over many years has proven worth following wherever she is. Sad that Balloon Juice isn’t one of those places any more.
C Stars
Just posted on the bad place thread. Wanted to let you know that everything in your post seemed valid, legible, and insightful and I am so, so sorry that some commenters decided to make it an outlet for their rage. Please keep posting here: your perspective is valued and much needed.
Alison Rose
@Barbara: I really do not want this comment thread to go down the tubes like the other one. There was no “imprecise” language. There was, rather, some commenters taking a phrase used with specific intention, one that has been in use in various social justice circles for a long time, and deciding it meant something it did not so that they could center themselves. And when given explanations, the bad-faith responses continued.
IMO, eddie deserves better. So let’s let this part of it go, I pray of those who are itching to continue litigating.
CaseyL
I am so glad to see another post from you. I would like very much for you to stay, if you feel you can. Your voice is very much valued.
You told the truth, back there. Not “your truth” (I hate that phrase) but A TRUTH. A plain, unvarnished, yes-this-happens, and yes-those-are-the-people-who-do-it. It boggles my mind that could even be controversial, much less unleash so much anger.
Barbara
@Alison Rose: I’m letting it go.
Major Major Major Major
Ooh boy, just paged through that thread 😳 glad you didn’t flee.
Edward Brennan
Eddie, I post seldom on this site. More of a lurker that reads mostly the top posts. But I felt I needed to say something.
I have been on sites where men, go “not all men” when people say “men”. Who went “all lives matter” in the beginning to people saying “Black Lives Matter”. As though either the “men” was overly generalizing, or the “Black Lives Matter” wasn’t generalizing enough.
I have been at that point especially on the first as a CIS white man where, I am sad to say, that “not all men” felt reasonable to me. Until I listened, and was taught as @Alison Rose said “If it is not about you, don’t make it about you” but always be humble that it might be about me in a way I can do better. But that only came from listening to those going “hey, not ok, and this is why”.
Thankfully, by the time it got to Black Lives Matter I saw right through that stuff.
I try to do better now for listening for what people are actually trying to say than trying to hold them to some standard as to how perfectly they say it. More magnanimous and I hope with more kindness.
The thing is, without others to help me, even when that help isn’t their responsibility and is not in anyway something they have to do, I doubt I’d be who I am now. It has helped me be I hope a better me and a better member of society.
Your posting here is that sort of kindness both to me and I think others too. I don’t want you to feel obligated because that would be horribly unfair. But I do want you to know that your writings are appreciated, and informative to people, like me, who don’t often comment.
Doc Sardonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Unfortunately, after having looked at the thread, and as much I disagree with you on most things, you are correct that this is not a good look. Given my current declining mental state, I probably won’t comment too much more here, but this is too damn good a community and what happened in that thread was disappointing to say the least. Also, I owe you a few apologies that you can accept or reject at your leisure, but I apologize for my disagreeable state on occasion.
SectionH
@Alison Rose: good
planet eddie – I hope tomorrow you’ll see a lot more people here supporting you. I really appreciate your posts.
tECHIDNA
@Alison Rose: I’ve been lurking more-or-less since Cole’s conversion. Especially as me being in a Venn diagram of minority groups, I’m still bitter about how ABL got more-or-less forced out.
@all:
Please don’t let this happen to Eddie. Please.
We really need a new history of second-wave feminism that includes marginalized voices that tried to make the movement intersectional before the third-wave, and it’s gonna need a history re-telling similar to Rachel Maddow’s Bag Man and Ultra, in which there’s an element of “How the hell did folks miss this throughout recent history?!”
Unfortunately, it’ll likely need to be narrated from someone with unimpeachable feminist credentials who’s cisgendered, as the people who need to listen need someone who looks like them in order to not immediately dismiss the knowledge, especially when going against one of the richest women in the world.
Seriously, these folks who are still fans of Joanne not-the-Fabrics, who’s more-or-less the female mElon Musk, are at the very least fans for and of a policy failure (net worth is about US$1.1 billion) who’d act like Mr Burns in the limo who couldn’t get the windows to raise quick enough to separate himself from the hoi palloi.
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus: @Alison Rose: It very much felt like a replay of what drove ABL away.
What the fuck do you people want from us? Eddie spoke from their lived experience, and made clear they were speaking about a specific group of women. I spoke from my lived experience and made clear I was speaking about a specific group of women.
And some of y’all lose your fucking minds.
If it ain’t about you, don’t make it about you. Let me repeat for those in the back.
If it ain’t fucking about you, don’t fucking make it about you.
I’ll let eddie speak for themselves, but I’ve encountered that exact thing they described from the type of women they described all too many times. Which makes it especially painful when someone I thought was an ally shows their ass.
Again to be clear, I’m not talking about all women, I’m not talking about all white feminist women. If it ain’t about you, it don’t make it about you.
I am saying the some of y’all have spinach in your teeth, and I’m pointing it out because I’d like to think that you’d want to address that. Apparently I’m wrong.
I’m gonna have to think long and hard about whether this is a place I still want to spend time at — and if I do, whether it’s worth even trying to talk about trans/non-binary issues here.
db11
I posted at the dead end of the original thread, but to re-iterate here:
@planet eddie, just want to add my voice in support for your efforts to educate us on trans issues and the lived trans experience.
I can understand why you might believe that it’s not worth the effort — or that you may feel the need to center your own mental health over our (intersectional) education — but please know that I (and many others here) find your insights and contributions valuable and needed.
Echoes of ABL indeed.
db11
@Sister Golden Bear: Totally understand your reaction and hurt. I’m sorry for what happened and how much it sucks for you, planet eddie and any other trans/non-binary commenters.
I’ve been reading your comments (mostly as a lurker) since you first appeared here and I’ve really appreciated learning from your perspective.
I hope that you’ll (all) stay around.
livewyre
@Sister Golden Bear: I hope you and eddie stay here, and not just because I’m in the same boat. Usually I learn a lot from this place – unfortunately, today what I learned was some of how relentless it can get when dominance is challenged. (Three quarters of feminism can be alienated by naming its abuses? That’s not a caution, that’s a threat.)
On the other hand, learning its shape may help increment the project of taking that dominance apart. That’s something of a fixation to me, a cat-and-mouse thing, maybe to a fault. If my being perpetually lost in the weeds can take some of the heat off the rest of us, I’ll keep it up as long as I can. If not, I strive to learn better.
LesGS
Balloon Juice reminds me sometimes, forlornly, of my very liberal, very well meaning UU congregation. (Though BJ is far funnier and far more profane than my UU church.) It’s true that we are both dynamically engaged in working for enlightened, democratic values. We do really well with feminist and gay and lesbian concerns. (Bi, poly, trans? Shrug.) We WANT to be as good with anti-racist, anti-transphobic issues. But in both my church community and in the BJ community, even really astute members go astoundingly, defensively sideways when race (why is ABL not longer a front pager?) or when the intersection with trans and feminism issues arise (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists, anyone?)
I’m frustrated. As an older white, gay trans man, I’d really like folks (including me) to work on overcoming their anti-human-of-whatever-kind programming. Female bodied people (raises hand) are under relentless attack currently, as are trans folk (me too).
Don’t let’s hurt each other.
The Dork Avenger
This is like misgendering you a dozen times a day.
Darkrose
@planet eddie, I’m sorry you had to deal with this. While I would be sorry to see you go, I absolutely understand if you feel like you need to leave; please do what you need to do in order to be safe.
After ABL left, I peaced out for a while. It’s exhausting to try to talk about your lived experience and word it so that it doesn’t offend or upset anyone, because you know the minute you let your anger show, you’ll be labeled an angry Black lady (not tm). I came back, but it’s kind of disheartening to see the same dynamic directed toward trans posters and commenters.
This. So much this.
Do you believe that trans women are women? Do you stand up for intersectional feminism? Then planet eddie wasn’t talking about you. It’s really not that complicated.
db11
@LesGS:
Great comment!
Totally concur.
ColoradoGuy
Thank you, Eddie, for telling us your lived experience. I for one really felt it hit home as you described what you’ve been through. Thank you again.
Darkrose
I just ran across this piece linked from Twitter by Ruth Pearce, a trans woman in the UK. A lot of her main points apply in the US as well; instead of “write to your MP,” write to the White House, since the Biden Administration is currently planning to allow schools and colleges to bar trans student athletes from sports.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
Insomnia speaking here.
Keep gouging at the wound – that’ll make it heal better. Also, keep up the false implication that you were called “it” on the thread itself – that’ll surely win you some allies.
Bottom line, you carelessly segued into high conflict territory that wasn’t germane to an otherwise informative piece of an unfortunate aspect of your lived experience. And in that little foray, you spoke inelegantly and in a gross generality about something that many people have spent entire lifetimes actively working to change policy regarding equity in wages, associational rights, employment opportunities and reproductive rights, all in living memory and all likely without a great deal of assistance from you by way of donations, rally attendance or organizational work outside your far narrower band of trans interests.
So yeah, she was salty, and now you doubled down.
Not a good look.
Msb
Echoing the many comments hoping you will stay, planet eddie (and be speedily restored to health). I need all the info and perspective you can provide in my struggles to be a better ally.
That comment collection really devolved in a painful and embarrassing way. Sister Golden Bear said everything I think about better than I. Thanks, Sister!
Stella
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
I honestly can’t tell if you and the others attacking Eddie are TERFs or just so unfamiliar with them that you can parrot their talking points without realizing how it comes across.
When talking about the Republican party in America, we often talk about whiteness because it’s so intrinsically linked with the party. When we talk about it in relation to that, it’s not a slur, or an attack, or divisive – it is a important context.
Related, there is a very large group of women who call themselves feminists who are mostly, but not entirely, white. This group has very distinctive traits that are in fact related to that whiteness. To dissect why they reach the (bad) positions they believe in, examining them through the lens of their whiteness can be useful.
The TERF movement uses exactly the arguments you’re making here to draw in people! That they’re just trying to protect women, and how all the people they don’t like are trying to roll back the clock on women’s rights.
I think a lot of people, for very good reason, are defensive about the word feminist. It’s been a punching bag of the right for so long that you just want to reflexively defend it. But there are people who use it and are wrong, and it’s useful to criticize them and examine their positions.
And I would ask you to either familiarize yourself with the TERF movement, if you haven’t already. Or if you are familiar, ask yourself why the argument you’re making here is being taken – by myself and many others – as identical to the ones they make.
db11
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Talking inaccurate, unnecessary and unkind shit like this, after the clusterfuck of comments on the original post — and with longtime trans Jackals openly questioning whether to continue here — makes me seriously doubt you’ve ever really been a trans ally.
A crappy take and not a good look.
206inKY
@LesGS: That’s kind of a perfect metaphor. I’m guessing the median age here is around 65, and it’s the most informative place I’ve found to for getting political insights from folks like my parents, especially my mom, who have passed. I don’t do church, even UU, so balloon juice is where I turn when I miss talking politics with my mom. As a cis middle-age white guy, I’ve had an easy road minus bullying as a queer kid in the 1990s. But even that wasn’t too bad in a deep blue city.
planet eddie, the experiences you describe sound really fucked up and I’m so sorry. Surely anyone paying attention can see that trans folks are enemy #1 for a massive swath of the right. tucker’s father was already bashing transpeople in the 1970s (see HBO’s The Lady and the Dale), but the present situation has somehow gotten even more vile and hateful.
there are changes afoot. your voice is valued by almost everyone who has chimed in. talk to an (actually) queer-friendly, student-friendly therapist in a college town, and they’ll have stories of young clients who admit to feeling guilty for not being queer enough: for having sexual preferences instead of being universally attracted to all bodies. desantis is absolutely reviled in a supermajority of folks under 45; pundits who see a bright future for him ignore that his base will die off long before he does.
My mom and lots of her fellow friends attended a very different but real school of hard knocks. They didn’t think intersectionally, but they were shat upon with a different set of microaggressions and barriers. They didn’t face the dehumanization of being called “it” and all the attendant violence and indignity. But they did face violence and indignity.
I never told my mother I was queer or poly before she passed. Never introduced her to my nonbinary partner. I didn’t fully trust how she’d react despite being my hero and confidant. I have a lot of regrets about that.
As more transpeople speak their truth, I think we’ll eventually see a show like Mad Men in the 2040s about the anti-trans mania of the early 2020s. It’ll feel like the stone age.
But a couple gentle challenges.
First, Dobbs will most directly impact young people, but it also seems to be bringing back trauma for those who cut their teeth fighting and winning on Roe. How do we honor that?
Second, I have had two students assert “it/its” as their preferred pronouns, on grounds of rejecting humanism and its complicity in the anthropocene. Instead—like Donna Haraway—some folks want to make kin in the chthulucene. This is not a joke. It is a radical choice in the face of planetary destruction. Still others might come to this through formative sexual experiences with robots. Either way, there will come a day when treating the pronoun “it” as the ultimate insult will sound tone-deaf to a generation fighting anthrocentrism.
I respect (almost) all voices here, old and new. The “not all feminists” stuff on the other thread is not the same as me saying “not all men.” I haven’t faced the same barriers or dealt with the same trauma. I hope this FSM version of the UU stays open in a spirit of mutual respect, with nobody driven away.
Elizabelle
@db11: Oh good, let’s tear the blog apart over this, shall we?
The person who called eddie an “it” is the boyfriend’s ex partner, Not someone to whom you might look for validation.
eddie then generalized a bit too much about those awful white women like the -ex, and got called on it by several women in the comments.
I get tired of hearing how awful us white women are, and I do feel for the many male jackals here who have to listen to people shrieking about white males.
We might not be the persons at whom the insults were lobbed, but is it any surprise that some of them land, anyway?
Some of the insults: how would they look if you were making that kind of blanket statement about women of color, or about a race as a whole?
JK Rowling must be one of the mightiest women in history. She is sure living in a lot of brains.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
That long-winded “what have you done for Feminism lately” was not helpful.
Elizabelle
@Darkrose: Please read up on what exactly the Biden administration has said. It’s quite different from the impression this UK commenter has left.
Here is a FTF NY Times article on the subject. I ask that you and other jackals sort the comments for “most liked” and read what you find.
Gift article: NY Times: Biden Plan Allows Limits on Trans Athletes’ Participation in School Sports
It is the first time the administration has substantively weighed in on the charged debate. The proposal would also prevent schools from enacting across-the-board bans.
MagdaInBlack
I’m disgusted with the bs on other thread and I see its migrating to this one, and that disgusts me too.
I’m glad you’re here, eddie, and I want you to stay.
Darkrose
@Elizabelle: I have read the actual text of the proposed ruling, and I’ve read what trans people in the US have said about it. One is from journalist Erin Reed, who calls it a betrayal, and she’s right:
The regulation says that criteria including physical examinations or medical testing can be used to limit or deny a student’s participation as long as it adheres to the requirement to “minimize harm”. That’s a loophole wide enough to drive a semitrailer through, and one that GOP state legislatures are absolutely going to exploit.
bjacques
I’m adding my voice to those hoping you’ll stay, planet eddie. Along with Sister Golden Bear, you’re keeping us up to date on trans rights being a major axis of attack from the right, assisted by former presumed allies who lately seem to have lost their minds. Civil rights aren’t a zero-sum game when you extend tolerance and support to those who will do likewise.
Speaking of which, a little tolerance for imprecise speech or views wouldn’t go amiss either, especially when there’s no obvious obtuseness or malice behind it. If there’s a repeat of it, sure, say something, but otherwise cut a little slack.
Elizabelle
@Darkrose: In the meantime, though, the Biden admin has protected (young) schoolchildren against blanket bans in playing sports. Which several red states have enacted.
WRT older student athletes: very unsettled. It’s a work in progress.
Momentary
I’m a middle aged white AFAB person who mostly passes for cis, although I don’t particularly identify with any of those things, and gender makes me itch. I stand with Eddie, and with the other trans folks here, without question.
I was born in the mid-sixties and raised by white radical feminist lesbians. And those women had infinite justification for their rage, but that sure didn’t make them saints. If you’re a middle aged white cis feminist now then you have plenty of righteous reason for your rage, but that doesn’t mean you’re not responsible for what you do with it. There absolutely are ways in which some white cis feminists do harm to other marginalised and vulnerable people, that are situated in their social position as white cis feminists, and it is necessary and important to name that, especially because it is currently being weaponised by the most hateful parts of our societal hierarchies. If you can’t deal with seeing that named without it triggering your rage, then you should stay out of those discussions.
Rusty
I’ll keep it simple. Eddie, I am grateful you are here and your voice is important and needs to be heard.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
It doesn’t mean it was inaccurate, particularly as we were all forced to endure a poorly worded and badly planned buckshot barrage against evil white feminists who only seem to care about their recent huge losses of long term, hard fought gains.
lowtechcyclist
This white cis het Christian guy wants to add his voice to those encouraging Eddie to stay.
And for God’s sake, let’s try to be kind to one another. I haven’t always been the best examplar of that, but I’m gonna do my best from here on.
Annamal
As a white feminist from New Zealand who just watched a horrendous woman from Britain attempt to come here and stoke hate int name of “protecting” women… there is a genuine and serious threat and some women are fronting it.
some are doing using a thin veneer of feminism but are also willing to play peekaboo with actual nazis.
the threat is real and serious.
Matt McIrvin
@Elizabelle:
As a white male, this is the one sentence in this discussion I feel qualified to respond to, so I’ll say: that kind of talk does not bother me one iota. When people complain about men or white men I understand exactly what behavior they’re talking about. I’ve seen it going on my whole life. I do not care that they’re not explicitly carving out an exception for me. It’s usually not time to be delicate.
MisterDancer
This, right here, shows you DIDN’T READ WHAT EDDIE WROTE. The use of “It” is referring, per the original post, to this line:
You, Deputinize, are the one throwing gasoline on this fire, not eddie. You are the one mischaracterizing Eddie’s comments, in an ugly echo of misgendering.
I know this comments section is “free-swinging,” per Cole’s ideals. But I swear, y’all keep this up and you’ll lose more than this poster.
TRY ME.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@db11:
I don’t claim being anybody’s ally. That’s performative, feel good bullshit used to burnish status for outsiders for whatever reason, and I don’t do performative, fell good bullshit. Frankly, I wish the term would disappear, because it doesn’t really do anything for anybody.
I’m not in this world to validate worldviews or assuage feelings. I simply hate to see people get shit on for what they are or how their outward expression of their core personality is made – THAT is where my hackles get raised. Otherwise, don’t come looking to me for deep expressions of empathy – and if you fuck up with people who are genuinely working in a way that will materially benefit you and people in your situation, I’m going to call that out as doing something foolish.
BethanyAnne
“forced to endure”. hahahaha
/insert Clockwork Orange toothpick image
Matt McIrvin
As for the trans athletes policy, it sounds like the Biden administration found their DADT/DoMA moment. They might have staked out the only politically viable compromise for now but they’ll regret it down the line. Here’s hoping it doesn’t take 15-20 years.
Another Scott
I hope you rested well and I hope we can read more from you soon. Your voice is important to me and to many of us here.
Cheers,
Scott.
MagdaInBlack
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Weird. I understood exactly what eddie was saying and the only thing I “endured” were the deliberate misinterpretations, like yours.
bjacques
@Matt McIrvin: The policy mentions a comment period, implying some adjustment is possible. It looks to me, though, is that it’s dealing with the immediate threat of blanket bans imposed on primary through elementary/intermediate schools, while leaving options open on high school and college, for now.
I thought it was pretty rich the Florida official hiding behind Title IX, which is almost certainly intolerably woke for Governor Meatwad.
MazeDancer
Please know that you are immensely, enormously valued Eddie and Sister Golden Bear.
Did not get a chance to read the other thread, Not going to now. Read the excellent post.
People who feel they always have to be right mixing that stance with hatred are always wrong.
J R in WV
Deleted
Kay
I’m not chasing anyone away. I thought the post was sexist and some of the commenst were sexist, and I said so.
It’s a politics blog.We’re not all going to agree. Again- the question isn’t whether planet eddies aquaintance is horrible and a bigot- of course she is- the question is whether the post was sexist and packed with negative stereotypes about women- I think it was and I think some of the comments were too.
You really don’t have to tell me about intersectionality or quote books at me- I would wager I’ve read more on feminism than most of you. Not all of you, but most. I understand the history, I understand the battles within, and I’m familiar with TERFS and have written opposing them, here, on this blog. Honestly, the patronzing lectures i got in response to my objection just make my point. Pretty fucking sexist.
Kay
I also didn’t disparage trans people as a group at all- unlike how the post and some of the comments treated “white feminists”, or, alternately “radical feminists” so I’m, not sure why the (dumb) comparison to ABL was made. ABL was attacked with racist tropes directed at her. I’ve never attacked trans people and never would.
Elizabelle
Kay, you were fine. Reading the thread: there was another party who was actually the incendiary device. As this person frequently is.
Another Scott
@Kay:
With respect, eddie’s post wasn’t about you.
Sometimes it’s best not to hit “Post Comment”.
Cheers,
Scott.
Joey Maloney
To eddie, Sister Golden Bear, and any other trans and/or non-binary poster here: you are valuable and you are valued, at least by this cis white male old fart.
Kay
@Another Scott:
Sometimes it’s best not to add a gratitious, nasty shot at feminists in a post that is supposedly about health care.
Eddie made the post about me. I’m a feminist. I get it- I’m supposed to ignore the shot at feminists and take direction on how to be a feminist from commentors who also post gratititous shots at feminists.
No. I refuse.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
Oh, forget it. It doesn’t matter. I disagreed with the post. I still do. I thought the paragraph taking a shot at feminists was misguided anger directed at all feminists that should have been taken to eddies bigoted accquantance and I thought some of the comments eagerly jumped on an opportunity to bash women. “Feminists” shouldn’t be collateral damage in a personal fight between two people. Eddies aquaintance sounds like a real asshole. That’s not the fault of “feminists”.
I don’t allow feminists as a group to be disparaged without objection. If that makes me unsuitable for this blog, if that’s too much conflict for the conflict averse echo chamber, than so be it.
Looks to me like we all survived my disagreement with eddies post. I know it was rough and hugely upsetting that I disagreed with afront pager, but we all made it thru somehow.
Another Scott
@Kay:
“Anita Bryant, a devout feminist, …”
Not everyone uses the word “feminist” the same way, and not everyone who says they are a “feminist” actually is one. It’s like any large group. You know this. We all know this.
You’re not reading what eddie, and others, have written.
Have a good Friday and a good weekend, everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay
@Another Scott:
Oh, I read it all right. As a long time feminist and political activist I’m very familiar with “good” feminists and “bad” feminists and the assumptions about who gets to decide which is which. I wasn’t at all surprised by which commentors eagerly jumped in to bash feminists either. I’ve read it before on this blog.
MisterDancer
See, this is the thing. Is Feminism an identity? Or a way of seeing and processing the world?
I just don’t get this. It feels like you’re saying this is not the way to make valid criticisms of when Feminists are outside their lanes. And that’s what’s breaking my brain.
There are criticisms of every movement. In this framing you’re proposing, how do we raise them around Feminism and/or how groups of Feminists interact with the larger world?
Tinare
@Sister Golden Bear: I’ve not read the comments section from the last post and don’t comment much myself or always read the comments, so I don’t always recognize a lot of commenters. But you I do and I’ve found that when I have read your comments I’ve learned from them or at the very least found them interesting, well put and valuable. I greatly appreciate Planet Eddie’s voice as well, and hope you both continue to contribute as it is apparent that your voices are greatly needed here.
Elizabelle
@Kay: I am just glad you are here. I don’t want anyone chasing you off.
There is a hive mind here. Also some issues with reading comprehension. None of that will come as a surprise to you.
Kay
If I take a gratitious shot at trans people in a comment about, say, abortion rights, eddie should feel free to object and disagree with me. It won’t happen because I’ve written hundreds of comments about abortion here and somehow managed not to take a shot at a trans people just as an ASIDE, but if it should happen by all means eddie shoudl call me on it. It’s fine-we can debate it.
PaulB
And yet, in fact, it was inaccurate, as well as mean-spirited and more than a little condescending, just like this comment I’m replying to. If that’s “insomnia speaking,” I strongly suggest you get some rest before your next post, as you’re not doing yourself any favors.
As you said, “not a good look.”
Elizabelle
@MisterDancer:
This comment was from Betty Cracker, in the “problematic” thread. Number 44.
I laughed when I saw this one, because I see that exact behavior here from time to time.
Not to stop you from dancing all over the topic, though, couching it in academese and encasing it in spider webs.
Because, as you know, white women rule the world. Rule it, I tell you.
PaulB
No, they didn’t. *You* made the post about you. There’s a difference.
K-Mo
@Edward Brennan: plus one.
Kay
@MisterDancer:
The post was about accessing health care! I have no idea why it was necessary to add a paragraph bashing “feminists” with this nasty “example” of a feminist who is actually just a bigot. And then the comments! “Yes, you are correct, 1000%! feminists are so bad because they’re all addicted to victimhood“. Jesus. You know who also had this theory of feminists? Rush Limbaugh. I don’t know what that is, but it’s not any kind of political coalition where I belong, as a feminist.
PaulB
The “shot” wasn’t “gratitious” [sic], nor was it a broad generalization like “trans people.” It was about a specific subset of women, about the rhetoric they use, and the actions they have taken and continue to take. If you’re not in that subset, then it’s not about you. Why is that so difficult to understand?
Kay
@PaulB:
It’s fine. You don’t object to a paragraph bashing feminists or perhaps you think the rest of the postmakes the paragraph bashing feminists worthwhile or ok. . I do object. We’re different in that way, you and I. The world will continue to turn.
PaulB
No, it really wasn’t. It was about personal experiences of “navigating the world as a trans person.”
Another Scott
@Kay:
eddie used the word “feminist” once. Here it is, in context.
I don’t understand how you can turn that into a supposed attack by eddie on feminists in general. I really don’t.
I think I’m done.
Cheers,
Scott.
PaulB
You’re still trying to play the victim, still trying to pretend that this was about you. You’re not, and it wasn’t. The sooner you grasp that, the better it will be for you.
MisterDancer
I’m…not? I was honestly confused. You’ve read me before, right; I say what I mean when I mean it, and if I’m confused, I say that as well. If I’m “couching” it’s out of trying to be respectful to y’all.
Again, I’m Black. I’ve heard criticisms about White Feminism since I started working in Reproductive Rights spaces in the late 1980s. But I’m not coming to say y’all are wrong, I’m TRYING TO LEARN.
Kay
@PaulB:
Oh bullshit. He has a horrible bigoted aquainatnce and he made this colossal leap from that one women (allegedly a “feminist” – not sure if she has an ID card or not) to a group of mythical “feminists” who are so whiny, so addicted to victimhood, that they literally cannot see anyone elses suffering. And commentors eagerly jumped all over that to agree – yes! 1000%! feminists suck! – so you know I wasn’t the only one who read it that way.
Kay
@PaulB:
That’s feminists for you-always playing the victim. Because that’s The Ladies. If they’re not “victims” they’re not anything.
Jesus fucking christ. Do you hear yourself? Incidentally? I reject your slotting me into “victim”. I am not a victim. I punch back.
PaulB
Right back at you, dear. If you have done *any* reading on trans issues, then you’re well aware of TERFs. And if you haven’t, then why the fuck are you commenting on this thread?
You’re still trying to play the victim here, still misreading planet eddie’s post, still trying to make it about you, and none of that is true. Get off your fucking high horse and go touch grass.
siddhartha
I have never posted a comment even after being a lurker for many, many years. But I will post one now:
Just when it is time to center YOUR experience Planet Eddie, the “Not ALL white women” or “Not ALL feminists” brigade comes out to center THEIR innocence, leaving you, the subject of the post and the object of horrors that THEY do not have to face, with the task of taking care of THEIR feelings–an ironic demonstration of precisely the privilege you are critiquing.
It doesn’t occur to those who insist on centering their innocence that regardless of their “goodness,” they still personally benefit from white, cis-het privilege in ways that you or I do not.
This happens to me ALL the time as a woman of color in allegedly feminist spaces (and I have been a feminist before I even knew the word). As soon as I say that white women in the US throughout its history have consistently chosen white privilege over alliances with other oppressed groups (how many white women voted for Trump?), I get the “Not ALL white women” response, which, once again, centers “white women’s innocence” (a dangerous trope as we should ALL know by now) rather than the real, empirically demonstrable fact that even white, cis-het women who voted for Clinton benefit from the white privilege and white supremacy exercised (as always) by the MAJORITY of white people in this country. (People also seem to have forgotten the racist campaign Clinton ran in 2008). So let’s center that privilege not your personal (imagined) “innocence.”
It’s exhausting. What’s sadder is that these privilege instantiating self-centerings are characterized as a defense of women or feminists (or fighting against sexism)–words that clearly do not include Planet Eddie because otherwise their experience would have been allowed to remain the center. But no, Planet Eddie must assuage and reassure THEM and be subject to pedantic, self-serving, and self-consolidating musings about clarity and generalizations.
And if certain people are as up-to-speed on feminist history as they claim, then their statements and willful misreadings would in fact not have been made in the first place.
(Btw, having to worry about being the “right” kind of white woman or feminist is not a burden as though we should all feel sorry for “imposing” this cumbersome ordeal on otherwise already imposed upon communities; those who get the privilege, also get the responsibility. what do you think trans people and women of color, etc. have had to worry about that others didn’t have to while they fought for their rights? Come on. Ida B Wells and Susan B. Anthony were both suffragists but their battles were NOT the same.)
PaulB
Wow…. and now you’re trying to play those silly games with me. You’re really a piece of work, aren’t you? I wasn’t taking about “feminists”, dear. I was specifically referring to you, to your posts and your behavior here. And yes, you are indeed playing the victim here, and it’s complete bullshit.
And with that, I’m done with you. You’re not worth my time.
PaulB
There is nothing “mythical” about those specific feminists. If you had known anything at all about these issues, you would know that.
Kay
@PaulB:
I’m not sad or hurt. I’m defending and this is just one of 10,000 encounters I’ve had with sexism in all kinds of forums and places. I’ll be fine. Not now and never have been a victim.
Elizabelle
@MisterDancer:
Sentences like this make my head hurt. How many pages and when is the paper due?
Birdie
@Kay: you’re clearly a really insightful person who sees nuance in general. And yet somehow the language which (I went back and checked) is clearly not universal and repeatedly qualified with descriptors like “labels herself as” and “reactionary” is triggering a defensive reaction, as if the words are targeted at you personally as a self-identifying feminist.
I don’t understand it. How is it difficult to understand that reactionary political actors are using the label of feminism? It’s demonstrably true that they are! A “feminist” from the UK held a rally with Nazis in Melbourne last month! Why is it so beyond the pale to point out that self-labelling as a feminist is not a get-out-of-jail card for bigotry? Or to imply that not everyone who calls themselves a feminist believes the same things, and sometimes the things they believe are pretty nasty?
I’m honestly mystified. This nuance doesn’t seem hard to grok, yet here we are.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Just ignore PaulB. This person is trolling you.
Some people’s lived experiences are valid, and some people’s are not. It seems to come down to that.
Kay
@PaulB:
Oh please Paul. Explain feminism to me. Tell me about TERFS. Deliver another tendentious lecture to me about my fucking lived experience. This is all news to me, this “feminism” thing. Something…. about the Hogwarts lady? In-Ter-Sec-Tion_ality? Maybe you can suggest some reading, under your (odd!) operating assumption that yu are better versed in feminism than I am.
Kay
@Birdie:
The post wasn’t about TERFS in the UK or TERFS holding bigot rallies in Scotland. The paragraph was a wholly unneccessary shot at feminists in a post that was about accessing health care.
Look, accept that bullshit if you want. Fine with me. Swallow it. I’m done with meekly accepting feminist bashing in pursuit of some greater good. That part of my life is over. That part of my life ended when I started transporting young women to get abortions – they’re my fucking people. That’s what”coalitions” are- we all take care of our people and our interests align and it’s all hunky dory. That breaks down when someone comes after MY people. Okay? Don’t come after my people and we’ll be just fine, a happy political coalition all pulling in the same direction.
MisterDancer
That’s from planeteddie’s comment last night.
That’s from Dr. King, in 1963 (line breaks mine).
I’m trying to listen to the criticisms. But both those voices above sound really similar, to me, and in the right ways. To be clear: I’m not tucking into the chaos in the comments, just what Eddie wrote and said in that post. Because yes, there are people like what both of the above wrote out there, and some of us are honestly missing that difference.
Yes, it’s a criticism of some feminists, because — and I went back and read the OP post — the post to me was read from jump as about being misgendered, and how/why it happens. It happened in a medical context, and then with someone who proclaims a feminist sensibility that appears skin-deep. Eddie does equate the two, but it’s not about shifting contexts, but centering on the misgendering experience.
That’s what I took from it — thus my own “yeah, this happens to be something on my mind” comment. I mean, I’m not hiding, y’all can look at the comment and make your own judgement about my motivations, here, well before things blew up.
If I wanna fight, y’all should know by now I’ll scrap. Ain’t shy about it, as someone else found out. But I’m also not letting this go, because it’s making no sense, to me.
Ohio Mom
It’s “vote Democratic” not “vote democrat” as long as we are talking about hurting people’s feelings through poor word choice.
Voting Democratic is the bottom line for me. I have held my nose plenty of times for the ultimate goal of increasing the number of Democratic votes. This is personal for me, as everyone here surely knows by now, I have a disabled adult son and the only thing he’ll have going for him after his dad and I shuffle off this mortal coil is what passes for a social safety net in this country. And as frayed as that net is, the only thing keeping it together are the members of the Democratic Party. So I will continue to hold my nose when needed.
I always find Sister Golden Bear and Eddie’s comments, arguments and insights enlightening and food for thought. As a bystander, this moment in history of trans activism and increased visibility is inspiring. All I can say is, Rock on!
Elizabelle
@MisterDancer: Clue: everyone is homing in on the paragraph from eddie’s original post.
Please look further in the comments for descriptions
Also, the slam on eddie was from her partner’s -ex. That kind of seems like a clue of its own. That is not someone who is likely to be going out of her way to validate eddie’s existence. Woman may resent the hell out of eddie and be vipering out any way she can. This may be news to you, but that dynamic exists.
Odie Hugh Manatee
My opinion of s couple of people here has really fallen. Wow, talk about blind to the life and the reality of others than yourself and your experience.
It’s not all about you and your interpretation of what someone has said. Fuck.
PaulB
Okay, just one more, because I couldn’t resist. You mean just like you’re doing to planet eddie? Do you even bother to listen to yourself? You really are a piece of work. And IT. IS. STILL. NOT. ABOUT. YOU. no matter how much you try to make it so.
Get off the cross; we need the wood.
sab
@PaulB: Some oF the worst “feminists” I have ever met are mansplaining condescending men who claim to be feminists but have no respect for actual women cis or trans.
As an almost seventy-year old woman I have lived and worked my whole life on the moderate end of feminism. I like men. I work with men. I believe trans-women are women and I welcome them. I know there are terfs out there but I don’t think they are in any way typical of feminists and I am getting very tired of being lumped in with them when trans issues are discussed
ETA This is in no way an attack on eddie or theirboriginal post, which I thought was interesting and helpful. Some of their defenders are being less helpful.
Kay
@PaulB:
Feminists. So whiny!
I’ll object the next time eddie slaps feminists with a broad nasty brush, too, and I’ll call out all the commentors who eagerly jump on to prove what Kool Kids they are. And I’ll enjoy doing it. I love a good fight. You can keep your cross. I don’t need it.
siddhartha
I have never posted despite being a lurker for many years. But I will do so now:
What a glorious demonstration of white, cis-het privilege that just when it was time to center Planet Eddie’s experiences, as subject of the post and object of horrors many (if not most) of us do not have to undergo, we must once again center “white innocence” or “white women’s innocence” such that Planet Eddie must now comfort and assuage those who benefit from the very white, cis-het privilege they are writing about!
This happens to me all the time in ostensibly feminist spaces (and I have been a feminist before I even knew the word). When I state that white women in the US have chosen white supremacy over alliances with other oppressed groups throughout its history (how many white women voted for Trump?), I get the “Not ALL white women” response–as though even those who voted for Clinton or are trans allies do not also benefit from the white, cis-het privilege and white supremacy once again reinforced. Instead of focusing on that, we must center (imaginary) white women’s innocence (a dangerous trope as we all know). (And we seem to forget Clinton’s racist campaign in 2008.)
It’s exhausting. And what’s worse is that these self-serving self-centerings are cast as defenses of feminism or feminists or women (it doesn’t occur to the “Not ALL white women brigade in these allegedly feminist spaces that being racist towards a woman of color is also being sexist)–words that clearly do not include Planet Eddie. Otherwise, THEIR experience would have been centered. Instead, they are subject to pedantic and obfuscating musings on clarity and generalizations, which makes oneself the victim.
BTW, having to worry about being the right kind of white woman or right kind of woman is not some undue ordeal “imposed” upon already bedraggled communities. Those who get the privilege, get the responsibility. What do you think women of color and trans people have to think about? Come on. Susan B. Anthony and Ida B. Wells were both suffragists but their battles were not the same.
Also, if one is as apprised of the feminist history and body of work as one claims, then the statements and willful misrepresentations and readings would in fact not have been made.
PaulB
No, I’m really not. I’m outraged at the stupidity, the insensitivity, and the narcissism of her remarks. I’m not trolling her; I’m calling her out.
This whole “controversy” is entirely made up because a couple of people misread planet eddie’s comments, took them personally even though the remarks clearly were not aimed at them, and now can’t bear to admit that they got it badly wrong. It’s bullshit.
Peace out, and this time I’m staying out. I’ve had enough of this shit.
Birdie
@Kay: but this is my point. I don’t read it and feel it is a shot at feminists. I had no reaction beyond recognition when I read it, because, in my own experience, there are plenty of people, women included, who talk a big game in public and then act in shitty ways in private. I read the part about “reactionary women’s rights activists” that comes next as actually a pretty direct reference to TERFs (I’m not wrong am I? “Reactionary” means “conservative”?), and the shared connection as a “claiming of the mantle of feminism” to justify (or at least hide from oneself) pretty unsavoury views.
Since you asserted that the text said something, I went to the text and see whether it actually says that, because it just didn’t strike me that way at all when I scrolled past. And I was surprised to read this post because I didn’t read those comments. I still don’t see what you see, so I guess that’s where we differ.
I agree with you that feminism should be defended, but I still don’t see where it (or women as feminists) was attacked in the original. Clearly, your mileage varies.
PaulB
Nope, still not referring to “feminists,” no matter how much you pretend otherwise. I’m referring specifically to you, dear, not to “feminists.”
You mean the *first time* that planet eddie does that, since they did not, in fact, do that, no matter how much you pretend otherwise. Is reading comprehension always this much of a problem for you?
Get a fucking grip.
MC
Hey, I’m transgender. Maybe you’ve seen me post here occasionally. I’m not feeling that this blog is really a safe place for trans people!
Denali5
Thank you, Kay. While I hate the infighting, I am old enough to remember the fight for women’s rights in all arenas, including sports. Those in power do not want to relinquish power. I don’t think young women appreciate what these women went through. And it is terrifying to see us go back. That is the real danger.
Bobby Thomson
And Kay continues to #NotAllWhiteWomen the thread. Jesus fucking Christ, you were tiresome AF during all the Bernie shit and I see you haven’t stopped. It was so nice around here when you took your ball and left.
The Moar You Know
Nobody ever won an argument by taking their ball and going home.
Fucking fight it out. That’s the only way any of us are going to figure it out.
Spanish Moss
@MisterDancer:
Hi, I think the problem is that if you read this post without having read the original one, you can get a very different impression from the opening line:
I read this post first, and it did sound to me like a commenter use “it” to refer to Eddie, and I was horrified. And to expect Eddie to be in solidarity? No way! Only when I read the original post did I understand that this reference was to a specific incident in Eddie’s life. And I didn’t see where commenters suggested that Eddie should have solidarity with someone like that.
While I appreciated most of Eddie’s original post, this opening was not a great way to start a new post or smooth the waters for a more productive discussion.
Kay
@Denali5:
I confess I don’t really hate the infighting although I respect that you do. I think infighting is both necessary and inevitable in a broad coalition like the Democratic Party and actually can be a strength.
It’s hard to cobble together coalitions. I defend my part(s) of the coalition and I make no apologies for that. I will also defend anyone elses, but only if they don’t come after mine. That’s the deal.
Kay
@Denali5:
Im not even for asking for support for feminists or feminist issues! There’s precious little of that that in this country, but that’s a topic for another day. My ask is much smaller. Don’t shit on us and especially don’t shit on us and expect everyone to go along. I won’t.
Evinfuilt
Glad I missed the other thread. As a fellow trans woman, I’m happy to see this history post about feminism. Being Gen X, and transitioning 15 years ago, I didn’t get to know much of the past (outside of Stonewall) because so many of us stealthed or died. We are now the ones on the frontline, helping the newer generations. Learning to be visible, and to fight.
Thank you Eddie
Elizabelle
@Spanish Moss: Thank you. Someone with reading comprehension skills arrives. Breath of fresh air.
MisterDancer
I’ve known Trans folx since the 1990s, and talk with some daily, including about the world they are seeing. So no, not really.
That said: so if I post about TERFs and Rowling and suchlike, that’s cool? Just don’t use the word Feminist? Again: gang, I’m already leery of posting FP here in fear of exactly this kind of reception.
I’ve been absolutely fierce, I think, about discussing Black and Islamic issues, among others, here. I feel confident in some discussions of those issues, even though they aren’t all my lived experiences. Again, I ain’t afraid of a righteous scrape. Indeed: I code switched, in fact, because when I talk outside my lanes I use that language to signal I’m trying for a listening/learning lens, not a “lived experience” one.
I have more than one voice, and all of them matter to me.
But the situation where I seem unable to get clear guidance on how anyone — not just Eddie — digs out of this hole really chills me. I honestly just don’t know how I proceed with a lot of topics in my idea queue that touch on both Women and Trans issues, among others, given this discussion. And I was already having life issues that made posting here…complex.
Now, that’s not me saying this is your, or Kay’s problem. I asked, and y’all ain’t responsible for providing me answers. I’m just expressing a concern that I’m going to keep working on, because having these dialogues matters a lot to me.
livewyre
Learning continues. To put my cards on the table, I, as a trans person, am also struggling to feel safe in this place, due to a certain phenomenon that I danced around in the previous thread but seems to have redoubled itself out of a sense of existential threat. I’ll try to be more direct this time.
Whiteness must defend itself, without pause, and without exception. It is absolute. It cannot be denied and cannot take second place. To subscribe to it is to presume its supremacy. That’s part of what’s happening – “white” is being taken as a slur. It becomes the most important aspect of the feminism. It becomes the focus of solidarity, which if insulted, alienates three quarters of the movement, who by presumption have no higher affiliation than whiteness. That was the implicit threat in the previous thread, the weapon against speaking out.
That explains the ferocity among seeming allies, seemingly with the same goals in mind, seemingly all on the same page except for this. The bone of contention is bleached “white”. If you criticize that, expect the thunder. That’s what this place is having trouble letting go. That’s what makes it less safe for some of us than others. Not feminism, not womanhood, but the daughters-of-the-confederacy dominance of whiteness underneath the sweet-iced-tea words. That flag needs to be defeated. Again.
Bobby Thomson
@Another Scott: This. It very clearly was an attack on TERFs, who deserve it.
But a hit dog will holler.
BellyCat
Ugh…. Labels can be triggering. Inherently, labels are generalizations that elicit understandings, experiences and prejudices that can never be understood exactly the same way by two different people; thus, labels can all too easily create misunderstandings and conflict between those who respect, support, and care for each other.
These two threads have inspired me to be more attentive to labels, desired uses, and the possibility of offense. Existential threats can be exacerbated by labels and it takes patience and effort to untangle whether intent or error is involved when offense occurs.
Elizabelle
@MisterDancer: I would be so delighted to talk with you off the blog. Let’s do it!
This is just turning into a dogpile.
Bobby Thomson
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: fuck off
Bobby Thomson
No, they didn’t. They really didn’t. You’re lying and I think you know you’re lying. They used words like “some,” which really wasn’t even necessary in the context, to show it wan’t a global statement. You had to do some serious yoga to make that about you if it wasn’t about you.
No, a bunch of people acted like they are brand new to the Internet and jumped through the wall with a #notallwhitefeminists like the Kool Aid Man.
Kay
@Bobby Thomson:
Oh, yes. Because any feminist (me) who disagrees with eddie is now a TERF. Keep digging. I’m learning a lot here. Attack feminists and I’ll punch back. Count on it. If you don’t want or can’t handle the pushback don’t attack my people. It’s not that hard. See how I’m defending feminists without attacking trans people? Do that.
KBS
This thread and the previous one are why I’m mostly a lurker. I’m just here to say I hope @Eddie stays, and that I appreciate the comments from @MisterDancer and @siddhartha and others. I wish ABL was still posting here, but now I think I understand why she left.
Josie
@Birdie:
I agree with what you have written here. I interpreted the original post in the same way. Actually, it caused me to research the term “TERFS,” since I was unaware of these people (I’m an old and not always up on current happenings). I am always learning on BJ and appreciate the differing points of view and educational aspects of the blog. I hope that Eddie and Golden Bear stay here and continue to tell us the things we need to hear.
Elizabelle
@Kay: These people are snowflakes, and won’t give you the benefit of the doubt. Because of this discussion, this blog is not a safe space! People are unlurking to tell us that. Which makes me wonder how they function in real life.
Anyway, some of us got what you’ve been trying to say, some of us don’t or won’t, and live to fight another day.
I think one big issue is that the term feminism might have been turned into a four letter word, TERF, on a lot of online sites. Might. It sounds like feminism is a pretty ugly concept now. Sad, sad, sad. People’s identities are being deployed as a weapon, and I don’t know how you get past that.
livewyre
@Kay: Who exactly are your people? Who exactly is being defended, or defended from? Please be specific. Because I don’t feel as though your stated efforts at avoiding attacking trans people are entirely successful at this time. In light of my lived experience, at least, which I am given to understand is not under contention.
Omnes Omnibus
The one good thing about this pair of threads is it might inspire Cole to do one of his patented “Fuck You, Assholes!” posts. We haven’t had one for a while.
Birdie
@KBS: +1 to all of this. I think I’m no longer a feminist after reading this thread.
Elizabelle
@livewyre: OK. Anybody who thinks Kay is all about attacking trans people can just go fuck thyself.
Has it occurred to you that you might be reading way too much into this? You’ve already thrown out the “racist” word.
livewyre
@Elizabelle: To be fair, I have a feeling I’m about to learn the hard way why the others scattered, but at least I would like to assure you of your contribution.
In case anyone needs telling, TERF is not synonymous with feminism. Even though it calls itself such, even though it lays claim to the “one true” form of it, it does not encapsulate the movement. Anyone who’s studied (or claims to have studied) intersectionality should be well aware of this. Any group can have reactionary splinter elements. This fact shouldn’t be offensive. So something else must rankle.
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: I don’t give a shit about “white males” being roasted, as I am not the ‘white male” type they are righteously shitting on.
Said by a whitey, white cis male.
livewyre
@Elizabelle: Funny, I didn’t say the word “racist” at any point. You can check. But it came to mind anyway for some reason. Can’t imagine why.
Bobby Thomson
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: again, fuck off. Take your lies and bad faith arguments somewhere else.
MisterDancer
@Elizabelle: you can catch me initially via [email protected] (it’s temp for this purpose, my BJ email is broken for some reason…)
Elizabelle
@livewyre:
That sounds a tad like you are talking about racism. Silly me.
Bobby Thomson
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: I repeat, fuck off, edgelord.
Bobby Thomson
@Elizabelle: It is. And if you’re too dumb to acknowledge the latent racism inherent in all people and especially white people, there’s no point in talking to you.
Msb
@ Kay
Planet Eddie’s first post was not a broad-brush attack on all feminists and therefore on you; It was about accessing health care as a trans person. Neither is this one. (I read them both.) But here you are again, raging up and down the thread, trying once again to make it all about you.
Stating your opinion once, supporting it with evidence, and then debating particular points is perfectly reasonable. Repeating your assertion multiple times, with extra added snark, is verbal bullying. Nothing feminist about that.
Planet Eddie is kindly sharing their experience as a trans person with us, many of whom (me, me, me!) want to hear about it. If you want to have some big fight about feminism, write your own post. Happy to argue with you there, if necessary, without stepping all over planet eddie’s info.
livewyre
@Elizabelle: Yeah. Systemic racism. Which is still an offensive concept, no matter how much one dances around it or tries to avoid stepping on feelings. That’s how it works, sadly.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
I’ve never attacked trans people, here or anywhere else, in fact, I defend trans people and jeeratTERFS constantly so they have to pretend I secretly attack trans people.
Unlike feminists, who people commenting on the post delighted in shitting on given the slghtest opening. They do it fairly often too.
“Feminists! Can;t live with em, can’t live without em!”
Dont worry- I won’t paint all trans people with the sexist brush as was done with feminists and TERFS right here on this “liberal” blog. I know many trans people are feminists, present company excepted. I’ll still back them in the political coalition, as I always have. They shouldn’t be punished for 11 people or whatever.
Elizabelle
@MisterDancer: Sent you an email. Something good has come out of this day.
Elizabelle
@Bobby Thomson: You are quite the charmer, aren’t you?
Bobby Thomson
@Kay: No, you’re just defending yourself. The post wasn’t about all feminists at all, planeteddie actually was very careful with their language, and you’re a shitty feminist. Your narcissism requires you to make everything about you.
Bobby Thomson
@Elizabelle: Has it occurred to you that maybe this is a you problem since the only people defending Kay’s MEMEMEMEME tirade are you and the edgelord who reeks of 8chan.
BellyCat
To all the 🏳️⚧️ people courageously speaking up, this IS a safe place for you to be. The vast majority greatly appreciate learning more about your lived experiences so that we may better support your needs and rights.
Same goes for all engaged in beneficial struggles we may not understand personally.
Argue, yes. But can we dial down assumptions and personal attacks a bit, while making some space for the possibility of error and genuine misunderstandings?
Elizabelle
@Kay: I would just leave it be for now, Kay. I know that. You do not need to defend yourself, your life, or your existence.
This post has been quite informative.
Delighted that eddie is here to post. I hope you will always remain, as well. Dogpiles being what they are. Cheers.
livewyre
@Kay: I don’t think it’s fair to characterize the specific, explicitly-qualified experiences of trans people as an attack on feminism as a whole, women as a whole, or white people as a whole. That feels like what you’ve been doing in both threads and feels like an attack in itself. To me, at least, for what my experience is worth.
Anyone can claim to support trans people or oppose trans-exclusive reactionaries. Often they themselves do. Support has to be substantiated, otherwise it’s just gaslighting.
db11
@Elizabelle: Nobody is saying this and it’s another example of projecting an overly broad and ungenerous interpretation on other peoples words.
Kay obviously has no overt animus towards trans people — or any intent to attack trans people generally — but she has done actual harm to trans people here by her belligerently expressed not-all-white-feminists fragility and self-centring, which is making them (legitimately) question whether this is a safe space for them.
It hurts more when people you thought were your allies prove the very points that you’re trying to make about SOME erstwhile allies.
Then you pile on with your sarcastic and belittling tone calling them snowflakes for expressing their hurt and concerns about their security in this space.
How about a little fucking compassion and kindness for the most vulnerable community (and identity) in the country at this moment who are under attack from every direction.
Just because SOME / a few / less-than-all white feminists know all about intersectionality doesn’t mean that they’re any good at demonstrating it. And SOME white feminists sure take umbrage when any one suggests that they might still have things to learn. (from people with different lived experience)
glc
Glad to have you here, and sorry about the reception – I did not read that comment thread and do not want to, but I get the gist I think.
Matt McIrvin
@Paul in KY: The way I’ve heard it said is “If it’s not about you, it’s not about you.”
Occasionally it IS about me, of course, and if so I at least make an effort to take that to heart.
Kay
@livewyre:
Okay. eddies paragraph felt like a gratitious shot at feminists. You feel this, I feel that.
I don’t blame him for being mad or upset at his horrible aquaintance! I don’t accept that feminists should have to take a hit for that person’s behavior, though. Also? It’s kind of obnoxious to put forth this Big Theory about feminists. Imagine if I did that for trans people. “I have a theory on trans people I gleaned from that one who was a racist” You-all would go ballistic if I did that! But because it’s women it’s okay. Women must take one for the team, which, INCIDENTALLY is the traditional feminine role and one I would not expect to find on a “liberal” blog. “Taking one for the team” put women back 50 years. I refuse.
I’ve always supported trans civil rights and I always will. All I’m asking is SOME consideration be given for my feelings about an issue that is absolutely central to MY being, which is womens rights. That’s what coalitions are about- they’re not about pretending no one has differences or insisting on rigid conformance. They’re about respect for each and every part of the coalition, despite disagreements.
Msb
What Belly Cat said.
livewyre
@Kay: I don’t understand something – are women’s rights being cast in opposition to what was said? Why does a failure of support (or infliction of harm) on the part of some feminists, some women, some people, have to reflect on the group? I mean, there is the racial elephant in the room, but I’m curious what I could be missing that’s unrelated to that.
Kay
@db11:
Is it a safe space for feminists in this analysis you’re using? Or did that question never occur to you, even with your elaborate attacks on me as “fragile” and “self centering”. I didn’t post a paragraph attacking feminists and then 15 comments agreeing. Ididn’t bring feminists into this- eddie did.
Don’t attack feminists because you have one in your life who is an asshole! Don’t leave multi parapgraph comments attacking feminists with elaborate pyschological theories about women and “victimhood” then holler when I push back! I would defend you the same way, BTW, if trans were attacked, and have.
I hit back. NOT hitting back set us back 50 years. Never again.
db11
@livewyre: I think that you’ve hit on something that rears its ugly head everywhere in our society — even in places like here, where you would have thought it fully eradicated long-since.
But because it operates at a below-conscious level — and is the amalgam of lifelong societal conditioning crossed with an unrecognized but tightly-held (default) white identity — it can be a massive personal blind spot, and especially so for (not-all-white) liberals/progressives/feminists who believe that their enlightened political world-view immunizes them from the virus of white supremacy.
(Middle-age white male Bernie bros obtuseness around race issues would be another recent example of the same phenomenon in a different gender cohort.)
Paul in KY
@Kay: Don’t you agree that there are self-described ‘feminists’ that are like that? If they (the self-described ‘feminists’) are like that, do you think they are not and cannot be ‘feminists’?
Paul in KY
@Kay: I agree with others that the post by Eddie wasn’t really about ‘healthcare’. It seemed to be more about his good/bad experiences in a generally medical setting.
UncleEbeneezer
Thank you!! This really can’t be said enough. It’s one of the reasons I constantly mention Whiteness as being absolutely central to pretty much every problem we are fighting in America. And why I write “White (Xtian, Cis, Het, Male) Supremacy”, because they are all part of the umbrella of White Supremacy and work in tandem with its’ goals. The Right/Nazis absolutely LOVE Fragility, because they know how easy it is to use it to create division on our side. It’s why those “It’s OK to be white” stickers started popping up in 2016. They know that they can get a lot of us to sprint back to protect White Supremacy if they can trigger us in various ways. They are using similar Fragility to get Women/Feminists to circle the wagons to protect Cisgender Supremacy/Patriarchy/Transphobia. Just like they’ve used Male Fragility to get men into MRA/InCel/Anti-Feminist stances going back to Gamer Gate. Privilege is a hell of a drug and Fragility is REALLY easy to weaponize to divide multi-racial/gender coalitions. It’s the oldest move out of their play book.
As others have mentioned, not sure how long you’ve been lurking at BJ, this happened before when in 2015(?) Imani Gandy caused an explosion of embarrassing White Fragility when commenters got super-defensive because she dared to point out that the reason we had to suffer seeing tragedies like the killings of Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown was because of WHITE People. Commenters pulled the predictable #NotAll bullshit, tone-policed her words, accused her of being “divisive” and eventually she said “fuck this shit I’m out” and we lost a great voice and brilliant mind all because too many people couldn’t handle someone disparaging Whiteness and White People™, unapologetically. Ironically, she is the one who finally taught me to really try to grok the phrase “if it ain’t about you, it ain’t about you” guideline for navigating and listening to conversations as a person with all the privileges. Sadly, a lot of people still can’t seem to grasp that idea or put it into practice.
I’m so sorry that you, Planet_Eddie, SGB and all the other Transgender/NB people here had to deal with this shit. You don’t deserve it. And you are absolutely justified to feel a kind of way about it. I hope y’all stick around, but I would totally understand if you don’t.
Kay
@Paul in KY:
I’ve actualy read a lot of TERFS on Twitter and have posted comments here disagreeing with them a lot. So, yes, there is a political movement against trans people and that political movement includes some academics and celebrities who are TERFS, but as a poltiical movement it’s primarily centered in the UK. I would have no problem at all with a freddie postabout TERFS. I’m interested in his take on it.
I don’t want to make anyone quit BJ so I’ll end this here. Ballon Juice has never really been a great place for feminists or womens issues anyway, with the (notable!) exception of Anne Laurie, who is a fucking trooper. Also Betty C sometimes. And some of the commentors, but honestly? Not a lot of the commenters. It’s my thing. I’m active IRL in it. I believe in it passionately and completely. I love feminists. They’re my people.
livewyre
@Kay: To one specific point – “Self-centering” isn’t an attack, but a literal description. In a topic raised about trans experiences, to center one’s own in differential objection is exactly that. It takes over; it dominates.
I mean, in times like these, each of our respective experiences are certainly under attack. But there has to be a place to talk about one or the other, otherwise it becomes a matter of who comes first – a matter of division.
I’m not for that. They aren’t mutually exclusive like that. If that thread was not where to talk about trans exclusion on the part of maybe-they-weren’t-real-feminists, then where at all? If ever? Maybe you’re afraid of being squeezed out entirely, but then why shouldn’t I be?
UncleEbeneezer
@Matt McIrvin: Yup. Btw, meant to thank you the other day for your phrasing that you do view LGBTQ Rights as YOUR rights, even if you don’t choose to exercise them. That’s a really great way of putting it that I will definitely use going forward when I try to help others understand the importance of us supporting and fighting for rights even when they don’t appear to apply to us :)
Paul in KY
@Matt McIrvin: I try also. It’s all we can do is to try and have empathy for struggles we may never have to go through ourselves.
wonkie
One reason I lost interest in twitter was the nick-picking on threads where everyone seemed to be fighting over purity or definitions of each other or perceived slights from someone (often someone not in the conversation) and so on.
I want to talk about fascists dismantling representative government. I want to talk about climate change. I want to talk about writing letters to win a race so we can fight back.
I like reading about people who have different experiences than mine. Some of those people are critical of cis white middle class boomer female liberals like me. So what?
Eddie wanted to write about an experience in a medical setting. I was interested because Eddie’s life experiences are so different from mine.
Yet here we go again, arguing about…well, speaking for myself, I don’t give a fuck what the argument is about. I don’t care. I want to fight fascists.
Just my point of view FWIW.
J R in WV
This is my 4th swing at a comment here… I deleted one because it was 3 or 4 am and I was medicated and decided to wait until I wasn’t so medicated, then the tools ate a couple more takes.
I have trouble believing that posters I respected are trashing a post about fascist trans hate and genocide over deliberately misconstrued language. So Sad…
I fully and totally support all our trans brothers and sisters (and cousins, etc) in their struggle against fascist hate and genocide. All our LGBTQ folx for that matter, as the fascists are coming for all of us. I still can’t believe that anyone who participates in B-J has trouble accepting the plight of the trans community and supporting those people in their fight for freedom.
I have no doubt that those who want to legalize genital inspections for little kids are malicious perverts, one and all.
I’m 72, born in 1950 in a small coal town in Southern WV. Obviously there was no gay community there as I grew up, although there were theater folks and dance folks, which as I grew up was a tiny clue that there were different people out there. My parents were friends with all kinds of people, many of whom I slowly learned were possibly gay.
One of my dearest cousins, the same age as I, was gay all her life. We were very close as we grew up together and we knew we were neither of us quite normal for the times and place. One summer afternoon she hugged me hard and told me how much she loved me… I still cry when I think of that hot summer afternoon nigh on to 50 years ago now. Anne has been gone for many years now, taken from us by ovarian cancer. She was a sweet shining star, and worked in an auto plant up in Ohio…
When you reject our trans or otherwise non-binary brothers and sisters, you reject progressive organization and struggle, and you reject me and mine. I do not want to hear about language!! while we’re talking genocide against our own.
livewyre
@UncleEbeneezer: Thanks for the acknowledgement. I tend to get wrapped up in technicalities but sometimes there’s a moment of vehement clarity.
All the outspoken contention about who’s a real feminist and who’s attacking feminism serves to paper over what I’m almost certain was the real trigger word. I have no illusions that it’ll be addressed soon, considering how central it is, but at least it can’t be denied.
Kay
@livewyre:
If freddie doesn’t want me to diagree with freddies takes on feminists I would suggest not posting takes on feminists. Because you might encounter a feminist (me) who actually defends feminists. That’s a risk inherent in the action.
I was actually a front pager here at one time, a long time ago. People disagreed with me all the time. They were way meaner than I have ever been to any front pager, including eddie. It’s hard to read. Hurts your feelings. But it’s a political blog, I had been reading it for years, and I knew people would disagree. I once wrote what I thought was a completely boring health care post that was REVILED because (I think) the whole premise was wrong- incorrect :)
It was bad, on reflection! The commentors were right! But I wish you nothing but good. Carry on!
Elizabelle
@J R in WV:
Who is rejecting these marvelous people, JR? I want you to name names.
Because I think that is something that you, and a lot of others leapt to, and it is not true at all.
Names, please. And if you include mine, I will call you a liar to your face.
Darkrose
@Kay: You misgendered Eddie here.
UncleEbeneezer
@livewyre: It’s one of the reasons I constantly mention Mothers Of Massive Resistance: White Women & The Politics of White Supremacy as a must-read for everyone here. We’ve seen this shit play out repeatedly in US history. Whiteness Is A HELL OF A DRUG, yes even for Liberals, even for Progressives, even for Socialists, even for Feminists, etc. It’s the glowing orb and center of gravity at the center of our world, even when we think otherwise, even when we aren’t aware of it. Hell, it is so strong it can even attract non-white people. As my fave Black comedy podcaster noted yesterday about that NC lady who is switching parties to give the GOP a Super Majority: “oh she’s just doing what they do, running back to Whiteness.” It happens all the time, and we are all subject to its’ pull if we aren’t on constant alert. Same applies to Male-ness and Cisgender-ness, too. It’s really on us (me and my fellow Cisgender people) to learn and recognize the way that the forces pushing this horrific movement of Transphobia are going to appeal to our feelings and identities to try and trick us into joining them while thinking we are standing up for Women or Feminism, when really all they are doing is getting us to co-sign definitions of Women/Feminism that purposefully exclude Transgender/NB people.
livewyre
@Elizabelle: You don’t have to mean harm to cause it. That’s the systemic part. In lieu of blame, though, it falls on each of us to be open to our own errors. Being a snowflake, or a pansy, or any other visually appealing but stereotypically feeble natural phenomenon, is not an error unless you ask the ghost of Limbaugh. Feminism can survive someone failing at it.
J R in WV
@Elizabelle:
We’ve fussed at each other off and on in the past. Something about our personalities sets you off and you rag on me. So not going to play any games. Just read the comments on planet eddie’s post late last night and see if you don’t find people putting trans fokx down for their use of language.
I’m done here, but for one thing…
You know who else demanded of people that they name names?
Joseph McCarthy. nuf said.
Seth
I just wanted to say that I really hope Eddie stays. As a cis-het white male who has very little experience with trans people I need Eddie’s perspective. I do not contribute in the comments as I feel I know too little to add anything of value but I truly appreciate the perspective Eddie’s posts give.
owlbrick
@Elizabelle:
(bold for emphasis added)
That’s a huge tell, homes. I don’t know if misgendering eddie and erasing their NB identity was intentional or just a mental tic, but that’s exactly the kind of erasure they were complaining about. If you’re trying to say you’re not the kind of feminist who erases trans and NB identities, maybe don’t turn around and do exactly that when the chips are down.
I’ve been around this site a long damn time, and though I don’t comment very often I really value the insights and community here. There are a wide range of opinions, and not everyone has to agree; appreciation of differences and honest communication are what make a healthy open community function. But if people see that their words and lived experiences will be rejected based on hurt feelings about tone, or worse on barely concealed rejection of their actual identities, it’s going to be hard for them to feel safe here.
Spanish Moss
I think there are generational differences in feminist views and that may be the source of some misunderstanding here. We have different lived experiences and it gives us different sensitivities.
I appreciated the post about trans health experiences, but I didn’t like this part of Eddie’s “theory” at all:
I realize that Eddie wasn’t trying to make a grand statement about feminism and that it wasn’t the point of the post. But how you talk about women’s rights is important to me, even in a somewhat off-topic paragraph, and I understand the desire to correct the record.
I am a CIS female in my sixties, and I work in a male dominated tech field. My career has been profoundly affected by being female, but nevertheless I want nothing to do with a victim identity for myself. I hate that association. I am not a victim, nor do I compare myself to other “victims”. I am a fighter.
I don’t know how Eddie defines “reactionary” or “activist” in this context, so how many people fit this theory isn’t clear to me. I would hate for people to think there are many feminists out there secretly defining themselves through relative victimhood.
Kay
@livewyre:
I never said eddie couldn’t post theories about feminists, so your “if not here, then WHERE?” question doesn’t apply. Post away.
I said I would READ the posts and disagree if I thought they were wrong, which is exactly what I did and that’s all I did. The anti feminist comments (supposedly in defense of some other group) have been a regular thing at BJ for years- it’s not a new issue- I usually object to those too.
But I get it. There may be no pushback of any kind of anything said about feminists. They’re – we’re – fair game.
Kay
@Spanish Moss:
You’re much more articulate on this than I am. I’m a brawler. Always have been.
Good luck. You’ll need it :)
planet eddie
I was very clear in my language in my post that I was not referring to feminists.
I was very clear in my language that I was referring to a certain kind of woman, who actively — actively — hurts trans folks and BIPOC people. In the UK in particular, this kind of woman has co-opted the “women’s rights” movement which is why I put it in quotes.
If you are not one of those women, I wasn’t talking about you.
I am a feminist. I spent most of my life living as a woman, and I identify as both a woman and a man. I fiercely respect and love the women who fight for intersectional women’s rights and trans rights.
Kay is also misgendering me as “he.”
Darkrose
@Spanish Moss: TERFs. They were talking about Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists. It was very clear from the context.
Matt McIrvin
@UncleEbeneezer: You’re welcome! And thanks.
Eljai
@Sister Golden Bear: @planet eddie
I hope you both stay. Your stories have touched me, opened my eyes and motivated me to be a better ally. I would not blame either of you for walking away. If you do, I understand. I’ll keep working to make the world a safer, friendlier place and I’ll keep seeking out your voices on other platforms. But, seriously, I hope you stay, even if you have to make rigorous use of the pie filter.
db11
@UncleEbeneezer: I second every word of this comment!
I followed ABL pre-Balloon Juice (and still do, of course) and was lurking here during that disgraceful pile-on. From the past 24 hours it seems that the same root problem persists without people acknowledging either its underlying presence or perniciousness.
It can be tremendously challenging for white people (raises hand) to read people like her — or Michael Harriot or Ta-Nehisi Coates — because of our subconscious, un-deconstructed attachment to our whiteness. We’re now facing a similar challenge of our conditioned assumptions, beliefs and language around gender queer / NB / trans issues. (and I don’t mean just here at BJ). And — surprise! — these things intersect in often unrecognized ways.
One can be without a trace of personal racial animus and still act as an agent of whiteness / white superiority / patriarchy without even being aware. The whole point of becoming ‘woke’ is to wake up to the myriad of ways in which even our smallest individual actions can (unintentionally) perpetuate white, patriarchal societal dominance; and the degree to which structural racism permeates every aspect of our society.
I appreciate livewyre naming and describing the problem directly and your expansion on those ideas was equally welcome.
Tinare
Deleted as it was addressed.
oldster
Planet Eddie: what pronouns would you like people to use to refer to you?
Your story about being “sirred” at the hospital made me think you preferred he/him pronouns. And owlbrick at 176 criticizes Elizabelle for using “her” to refer to you. And you don’t like being referred to as “it”. So, she/her and it/its are out, but he/him is also out, do you prefer they/them/their?
Ang
Eddie, I value your voice and am glad you have spoken here. But if you choose to go I can see why. Just like they say ‘you don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep another warm’, you shouldn’t have to light yourself on fire to bring others light (knowledge). This whole mess is a big part of why I rarely comment.
As for the rest, yea, starting to wonder why some folks are taking it so personally, when it didn’t appear addressed to them.
Kay
@planet eddie:
I’m sorry. This is the first post of yours I’ve ever read and I dont know how you identify so I went by your name. I stand corrected.
I don’t agree that it was clear you were referring to TERFS. The three commentors who leaped in to trash feminists in response to your post have done it before- they seem to take every opportunity to trash feminists in this kind of ultra cool patronizing way that drives me up the fucking wall _ amsuing too, because unless I miss my guess they ARE white feminists, or claim to be feminists.. They do it because they know no one here will defend feminists because they either don’t care or they’re afraid to. It upsets me and I say so, and have said so outside of the context of your posts.
BJ aint real feminist friendly. Never has been. John is a feminist, IMO, so it suprises me.
Lobo
My hope is that we all can be gentle, gracious and patient with each other. Eddie, keep on posting. You help me expand my thinking. Christ on a bike, I have my blind spots. :) The dynamic I have seen here and elsewhere is that whenever marginalized groups discusse an issue with another group that should be an ally, that other group conflates it to the whole group. There is nuance here. I know when marginalized groups complain about cis-gender men, I understand it doesn’t necessarily mean me, but that there is enough of that group to be a problem.
That understanding of nuance does go both ways as Eddie indicates that patience with people trying to do the right thing with good faith and sometimes failing, will be met with goodwill. Lord knows how many times I got pronouns wrong, but not for lack of trying but because of habit. To try and go down the rabbit hole to be so specific on who is exactly the issue can be a drain of energy and a distraction to the real central issue. Let’s just say there enough or important enough so-called allies who are in it for themselves to create issues, but that does not mean all of them are. That should be understood. The question should be is how to band together to enjoy and yet to help each other. How can I help, and yes, I know some of my group can be part of the problem.
Peace everyone.
Msb
Probably too late in this thread to comment on the excerpts planet eddie posted at the top. But anyway …
I would have found them very painful if I had not already had a similar awakening about two of the Mothers of Us All: Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. As I continued my reading into American feminism between the Civil War and 1920, I found both of them making racist and xenophobic statements and actions to protest the exclusion of women from the 15th amendment. Later, as the drive for women’s suffrage gathered steam, Anthony chose to exclude African American suffrage groups to include white ones in the national association, knowing that part of growing white support for women’s suffrage in the South was to use white women’s votes to help counteract those of black men. That Anthony was not racist in her private life, and was friends with Ida Wells, doesn’t change that – or change the fact that Wells had to crash Alice Paul’s 1913 suffrage march, as she refused to walk in the back with other African American women. ( Do I blame Anthony, or Paul, more than the Founders, who made a similar pragmatic political choice in 1776? No, but I can certainly note their racism.)
That’s the problem with most liberation movements; they keep tripping over the boundaries they’ve set, perhaps unconsciously, for who “we” are. We feminists like to say we are fighting to free all women – and then women of color, disabled women, neurodivergent women, lesbian women, trans women, etc. say, “Am I one of ‘us’?” And many of them say, “Doesn’t look like it from where I am.”
Any response that starts with “Weeeeelllll, …” or “Sure, if you’ll act like the rest of us…” actually means no. It means that all that talk about fighting for all was just talk.
OK, so reformers, like other humans, screw up for pragmatic or a host of other reasons. The thing to do when we recognize that is not to hurl in screw-up into outer darkness; we’d soon run short of humans, doing it that way. The thing to do try to fix the mistake. Feminists in my youth kept assuring critics that they weren’t lesbians but what feminists would try to exclude lesbians now? And so the borders keep needing to be expanded or perhaps abandoned. While we are honestly grappling with new ideas, we need also to remember that our opponents try to use our own principles against us. Remember all the R’s saying that any criticism of Sarah Palin was anti-feminist/misogynist?
And so we arrive at the current moment of conflict over whether trans people are part of “us”. They are.
The example from literature I would call on is not Rowling – who discovered that she didn’t really mean the excellent message behind Harry Potter (everybody matters, and judge for yourself, not by tradition, history or the powers that be) – to apply to everyone, but the late Terry Pratchett, who delivered the same message but continued expanding his definition of “us” until his premature death.
Humdog
Holy shit a couple of you are showing your whole ass here!
I hope you stick around, eddie, but it would be understandable if you don’t want to put up with crap “allies” exposing themselves here.
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay:
Misgendering eddie, who uses they pronouns and has repeatedly mentioned this, is pretty vile, regardless of what you think they said.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
You’re actually one of the commentors who gleefully jumps on anytime someone trashes feminists, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t accept a lecture from you. I know you think you’re hugely enlightened and it’s much more nuanced than ordinary, garde variety feminist bashing, but I would submit to you I know it when I see it. I have lots and lots and lots of experience with it.
livewyre
@Kay: Level with me. Am I a feminist, according to you? Have I attacked feminism here, according to you? Does feminism need defending from me? Is it my acts that are being pushed back against? If mine, which? If not, whose?
Kay
@planet eddie:
You should absolutely keep posting here. I’m just a lowly commenter. I promise to never comment on one of your posts again. I might, however, continue to go after sexist commenters on other posts because I can’t resist, so John might have to ban me :)
I wish you nothing but the best and I hope you enjoy writing here. It can be fun. Also can be awful, but that’s the way of things.
Spanish Moss
@Darkrose: I have to laugh, because I had to Google TERF. I have seen the term but I hadn’t looked it up before. I am glad it was clear to you, but it wasn’t clear to me. Everything might not be as clear to everyone as you think.🙂 (That was intended as some gentle humor).
UncleEbeneezer
Feminism =/= White Feminism™ (which I think you could also correctly call “Cisgender Feminism). There’s a key difference between the two. Many people who claim to support/defend “Feminism” are really caping for White Feminism™. It’s important for all of us to learn the difference and update our definitions for 2023.
If you are being called out by the Trans/NB members here please stop digging. You are probably getting flak because you are gatekeeping Feminism in a way that excludes, diminishes them, just like TERFs do.
db11
@Birdie: I appreciate your comments and insights over these past two threads. I think you really hit the nail on the head in your post last night comparing your UU church community to this one in terms of our current state of evolution on these social/cultural issues.
As someone with NB people within my immediate family, I’m grateful for your non-inflamatory, thought-provoking and enlightening comments.
livewyre has also been particularly stellar in that regard, keeping their calm while eloquently describing the issue(s) at stake — which is especially impressive given that they identify as trans and this must hit so close to home.
Kay
@livewyre:
I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve called you on it. so probably not. Look, I realize this is a matter of perception, but so is everything. It’s really the wrong time in my life and politically to go after feminists around me. As I said- if you do, expect incoming, because I think women got to a place where they have lost 50 years of agency and autonomy and progress because they were endlessly, endlessly accomodating. It’s what we’re trained in. It’s hard as nails to break out of and I always, always get shit for it.
But again coalitions are fragile as are communities and BJ, while not really a coalition IMO, or even very “political” at this point, is a community and I don’t want to ruin it for anyone. Not you, not eddie. So I’ll not comment. Seems an easy solution.
AJ of the Mustard Search and Rescue Team
I’m so sorry this bullshit transphobia is here on BJ and impacted you eddie. I’m grateful for your powerful posts. I hope we can earn your trust back and be a place that feels supportive and affirming 🙏🏻
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay: I just saw your prior comment about being the first time you’d see eddie’s posts, which led to your mistake — which apparently you made while I was writing a reply. (I’m multi-tasking while I’m at work, so I’m not replying instantly.)
So I apologize for thinking it was done intentionally.
livewyre
@db11: Very kind of you to say. It’s gratifying to hear that my navel-gazing obsession for minutiae has been of use. Honestly, I would have tapped out a while ago if it weren’t for signs like this that there is a difference to be made.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
I just speak to eddie because eddie is who I offended. I don’t think I have to respond to each BJ comment policer.
I am curious which feminists you approve of, however. I’ve been reading your comments a long time and I have yet to see a single positive comment from you on feminists. It’s like Goldilocks, maybe. None of them are just right, but they’re good in an abstract, not-real-person way. Feminism as a concept is popular in “liberal” circles. Feminists who speak and bleed and even (gasp!) complain? Not so much.
UncleEbeneezer
@siddhartha: What a superb comment! Welcome and I selfishly hope you will comment here more, because you knocked this out of the park.
Darkrose
@Spanish Moss: That’s fair. Still, I felt that Eddie’s post was sufficiently nuanced. They described one person, and specifically said that she was talking up her feminist credentials in public while attacking trans women in private. That wasn’t an attack on all feminists. Their reference to some women who are reactionary is also clearly not referring to all feminists, or even all white feminists. Eddie put in multiple qualifiers that I thought made it clear they were talking about a particular subset of women who consider themselves feminists but are not interested in a version of feminism that doesn’t center their experiences.
sab
@planet eddie: eddie, i am glad you are still on board although I was on Kay’s side. Initially I was shocked at her level of anger (Kay is a voice of reason here) but I very much saw her point. Especially when the other jackals jumped in ( defending you.)
You are trans towards male and I am happily cis female. That alone gives us very different perspectives. I cannot imagine being unhappy with my assigned gender, but you are and my niece is, and my granddaughter’s
sisterbrother is. So I believe you. ( Also too, I do want to hear about your dealing with the medical community because that is their world also.)But as a happily cis woman 50 years ago we went through a lot. I went to law school. My cousin, three years ahead of me at the same law school was one of 3 out of 200 students. Guys used to come up to her in the library when she was studying and confront her. Why are you here.? A guy needed this place and you took it. Hillary ran into this also: I needed your place to avoid the draft and you took it.
I am 69 and have been dealing with women are nitwits since pre-school. In elementary school we couldn’t play on the fun stuff on the playground because we were girls and had to wear skirts.
I wanted to take woodshop in high school (boys were in cooking classes) but we couldn’t because power tools.
When I was a young lawyer in practice, pretty much every week when I was at the crosswalk in my suit with my briefcase, some hostile failed male would stagger up to me at the crosswalk and scream obscenities at me for being a feminist who somehow had ruined his life. I had to carry two pairs of shoes in my briefcase on motion day, because one judge hated high heels and another thought it was disrespetful if I didn’t wear them.
Then I switched to accounting. Couldn’t participate in end of year inventory observation because these were car lots at night in the dark and that was dangerous.
I am sure eddie has had a lot of difficulties in life. Frankly I think trans difficulties are much harder because there is not a clear path, plus families.
But feminism (i.e. women working to earn a living) hasn’t been all that easy in my lifetime.
ETA I think Kay reacted to things said that you didn’t mean to imply. But jackals jumped on board defending things you never said. And that pisses me off. After all these years jackals don’t trust Kay? or Barbara?
livewyre
@Kay: For the record, I appreciate your work in general – for instance, no one here has been nearly as outspoken and incisive about reproductive rights, and I see gender affirmation as inseparable from that in the shared domain of bodily autonomy.
And in particular I appreciate the distinction made between coalition and community. I admit to having been far more political than personable in these threads and I mean no aspersions towards you or anyone you stand for. By and large we really are pulling for the same thing.
Expletive Deleted
I am absolutely a feminist and I don’t for a second have any confusion as to what the terms White Feminist or TERF mean. The word “feminist” isn’t a magic protection spell, if your brand of feminism requires hurting some women then it’s garbage. Calling that out is not an attack, its the absolute least that a feminist should do.
Jacqueline Squid Onassis
@Sister Golden Bear:
Amen. If trans people can’t talk about the bigotry we face from any number of white, cis, feminists, we might as well stop talking about the bigotry we face. Calling out cis, white feminists behaving badly isn’t misogynist or unreasonable unless we only call out that set of people. Of course we don’t only call out cis white feminists.
That whole ugly thread was righteous indignation caused by misreading and compounded by the inability to step back and say, “Maybe I misunderstood. I’m sorry.”
We have few enough trans voices online that we don’t need to attack those trying to tell our story. I’m still unspeakably angry at how my self styled allies just went on an all out tantrum because they mistakenly thought they were the anti-trans feminists being talked about.
Thanks for being here and posting what you post, planet eddie. I very much appreciate it.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
When you’ve spent much of your life being attacked for being a feminist, you get touchy. You get sensitive to slights, even unconscious ones, because you’ve experienced so many of them. When I read, ‘I think a lot of the reactionary “women’s rights” activists emerge from the angry disbelief that someone might have it worse than them’, I winced because while I’m sure that they didn’t mean it as a broad attack on feminism, it did come off that way. It wasn’t clear that they were referring to TERFs specifically. It does sound like some of the criticisms I have heard from misogynists. I am not saying that Eddie is a misogynist at all. I also realize that Eddie may have made an effort to qualify that statement, but I don’t think they did a sufficient job to take the sting out of it. It basically reinforced the stereotypes of feminists as being reactionary and angry. I am extending Eddie some grace, because I don’t think Eddie intended to offend, even though the statement was offensive. That is why I chose not to comment at the time. I also want to add, that if you aren’t a feminist woman, you don’t get to tell feminist women what is or isn’t offensive to them. Being a feminist IS part of my identity and I have taken a LOT of crap for it. When you are directing your critcism at the behavior of TERFs, make it really clear. Use that word every single time.
db11
@siddhartha: I second UncleEbenezeer endorsement (for a 2nd time this thread!) that your comment was brilliant.
In a thread chalk full of horrendously bad takes — by only a small handful of people, mind you — a thoughtful take like yours really stands out
I too would be interested in hearing your perspective more frequently here.
TooTallTom
@planet eddie: I want to say thank you for being here, and on this platform as a front-pager. I appreciate your perspective, and the education you are giving me. Please stay, and continue to contribute. We all benefit when we can learn from a different view, and a different life experience.
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay: I wasn’t expecting you to respond to my apology, nor you to accept if you don’t want to. It my mistake, and I wanted to make clear that I owned it.
Honestly, I don’t need to prove my bonafides to you because you’ve made it clear you’re going to dismiss anything I say. Which is a shame, because I’ve really respected you as both a FPer and a commenter, I’ve found your posts to be normally insightful.
But for the larger audience, I definitely do support feminism and feminists. I, like a number of other trans woman, have been actively fighting the abortion rollback even though we can’t get pregnant, because it’s an issue that affects all other women (as well as trans men and non-binary people who can get pregnant).
If I’ve been calling out “feminists” lately, it’s because they’re are cis women coopting the mantle of feminism as a justification for not supporting trans women, or actively working against them. Yes, the most prominent example are the TERFs in the UK — who as you may remember, I’ve referred to as “feminism-appropriating reactionary transphobes.”
But their influence isn’t limited to the UK. Proto-TERFs worked with Jesse Helms in the 1980s to prevent insurance being required to cover trans healthcare. Today’s TERFs have been actively attacking trans people and our allies in the U.S. For example, a few years ago they launched a vicious attack effort to get the SF Dyke March, which has been trans-inclusive from the beginning, to ban trans women from participating. They’ve working with the Christofascists to push the various anti-trans laws.
But similar to eddie’s experience, I’ve also had more than few encounters who claimed to be “feminists” but that came with an asterisk when it came to trans women. It happened for years when trans women were banned from lesbian events (even though trans men were allowed) — Michfest being the most notorious example — and the justification used the arguments of trans-phobic rad fems, like Janice G. Raymond and Mary Daly. Both whom used to their “feminists” to argument that trans women weren’t women and were men trying to infiltrate feminism to destroy it. It personally happened to me in lesbian bars in ’00s when I first was going out in public as a woman. It happened during the first round of bathroom bills. “I support trans women, but when it comes to bathrooms…. well you know…” and trans girls/women in sports “I support trans women, but when it comes to sports…. well you know…” It still happens today when some women I know personally claim to support trans people public, but shit on us privately.
I’m not sure what part of “not all women/not all feminists” isn’t clear, because I, eddie, and others have repeatedly made clear that we’re talking about a particular subset, in the case of TERFs, a small but extremely vocal minority of women. This is also true of the specific examples I mentioned above. Again, if it ain’t about you, don’t make it about you.
If I talk about this small subset of women, it because their “feminism” has been weaponized against us. I don’t talk about trans-supportive feminists because they’re not a problem in the current rollback of trans rights.
Am I really being expected to have counterbalance any critique of these women with high praise to other feminists in every fucking post I make?
Sister Golden Bear
@siddhartha: Thank you for your insightful post. I hope you post more in the future — regardless of the subject.
Kay
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Thanks you so much. You and I have always been pulling on the same side in the comments and I’m genuinely grateful to you for “getting it” on a visceral human level when it matters so much to me, just as I think I “get it” on a visceral, human level when yu panic/despair over anti trans laws.
It felt like a shot. I don’t apololgize for shooting back.
Kay
@Sister Golden Bear:
I’m, asking you to use TERF if you mean TERF. Unless you don’t mean TERF, which honestly you didn’t – read your own comment. You extended it to “white feminists”. Not to nitpick, but words have meaning! TERF means one thing and “white feminists” means another.
You just fucking scolded me for making a mistake with a word with eddie, for which I immediately apologized, as one does when one offends. I’m asking you to make yourself clear when discussing feminists. Why? because I am one and I insist we be clear. Why wouldn’t I get the same consideration on specificity of language and sensitivity I extend to you as a matter of course? Why wouldn’t that appply to me as well as you? I give it to you, no questions asked.
Spanish Moss
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Thank you.
Kay
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
They didn’t mean TERFS, which became immediately clear when the comments extended it to “white feminists” and now the subsequent post has extended it still further to white women.
So “we meant TERFS” is a nonstarter. That’s no longer a possibility.
I know I’m shrill (like all women- complainers!) but unless “white feminists” and now “white women” mean “TERF” they never meant TERFS.
livewyre
It really is about white women. That was what blew up, and it hasn’t stopped, and it’s not going to until we figure this out. This whole, you know, race thing.
ETA in elaboration: I can understand how it might feel unfair how difficult it is to defend white women for being white while not coming across as… wrong. But there’s a hidden and inescapable assumption in there that whiteness is an innate kind. That’s the systemic issue. Nobody’s “from” white. It’s a marker of exemption. There’s nothing there to defend. Well, nothing we as a society care to have around.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Kay: Now that I finally waded through all the comments on these posts (wow, what a ride) this is what I’m left with, too: why not say “TERF” if you meant TERF?
Kay
@$8 blue check mistermix:
Because they didn’t mean TERFs. They meant some broader category of White Feminists or white women which became immediately clear in both the comments and the subsequent post, whoch is titled “the trouble with white women” not “the trouble with TERFS”.
So TERFS is a red herring. The question now becomes which white feminists or, even more broadly, which white women. But it took 9 hours for them to admit that, so I don’t hold out a lot of hope for a “discussion about feminism” – there was zero “discussion” about feminism in the post or comments -and there still isn’t. Whch may be good, actually. I’ve read a lot of feminism. It’c complicated. 150 years old in the US. My head might explode.
livewyre
@$8 blue check mistermix: As best I can tell, no one was called one (or meant as one) in the first place – they were brought up as an example of being able to call oneself feminist while denying the rights of others on a gender basis. The stated experiences didn’t pertain to that.
I read the epicenter of the actual ruckus as what it means to be white (in terms of alienating feminism as a whole, or at least three quarters of it), which may or may not be a discussion this place is ready for. I’m on the fence leaning “why not”.
Kay
@livewyre:
WHAT is “about” white women? Hey, I would love this discussion too if I were a white man. You’re completely off the hook! It’s the womens! Especially the outspoken ones. AS USUAL.
livewyre
@Kay: This discussion is about white women because white women are being centered in it. Functionally, that is the path that this discussion is taking. The objection, as far as I have been able to discern, is to a perceived characterization of white women, particularly in terms of whiteness.
Saying “white”, even qualified as “usually” or “some” or whatever else, brings race into the discussion, and that’s what the original post did. As we know, whiteness functions by demanding and enforcing exclusivity. So “usually white” becomes “white women in general” and thereby “women in general”, which in your extensive readings on topics such as intersectionality I’m sure you will recognize the effect of.
I suspect that’s why it looks like feminism as a whole, and women as a whole, are under attack from these anecdotes. They call out whiteness, and whiteness can admit of nothing besides itself as valid. That’s why addressing it is an unsolved and ongoing problem. It keeps rankling. There would be no more conflict in this thread if it didn’t. We actually agree about women, but not about how to characterize anyone as “white”.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Kay: Yeah, I don’t get the politics of that at all. Thanks.
Madeleine
This thread may have died and I have read only the beginning and end of comments. Still, I want to say to Sister Golden Bear and Eddie Blake: DO. NOT. GO. AWAY!! You are not only teaching me, your words are evoking feelings that tell me where I am wrong and need to change. You are bringing light to dark places.
Kay
@livewyre:
Yeah, well, disagree. I don’t think they’re “calling out whiteness”. I think they add the modifier because it’s the single group of women it’s acceptable to attack.
It’s women. I know BJ fights this at every turn- nothing- nothing – is ever about sexism and stereotypes about women but while that is a POPULAR opinion I don’t think it’s CORRECT. In fact. I think when people talk about huge groups of women as this or that (always, always negative) that is an attack on women. I also think one should be careful when insisting on defining feminism to other feminists. That’s not good.
And eddie would feel exactly the same way if I did a broad brush of trans people. Understandably. It’s offensive and all the scolding in the world isn’t going to change my mind. I think I read it correctly and everything since has only made that more clear.
Kay
@$8 blue check mistermix:
Well, it’s not political. It’s theoretical. Ugh.
livewyre
@Kay: But… defining feminism is exactly what defending it as a whole does. It’s being defined as what’s under attack, i.e. usually white, misgendering, the whole nine yards.
I object to that definition of feminism. It excludes me and others, while including those who abuse it and abuse others in its name. I don’t get to define it alone, but neither do you, alone. That’s what I see you as attempting, and I’m experiencing what happens when it’s attempted – exclusion. If that’s what you mean to do, please be explicit.
livewyre
@Kay: No, the ongoing and present harm is not theoretical. Ugh. So much for refraining from comment in the interests of community.
Kay
@livewyre:
You claim to have this nuanced background thinking about feminism yet you’re NOT aware that calling femininists “reactionary” is a trope that is 4o years old and always used to marginalize and shut women up? Rush Fucking Limbaugh used that language about feminists. I would think the feminist scholars of BJ would be aware of the history.
“Reactionary feminists” and then in the comments “radical feminists”? Really? No inkling that this is what women have been called for 150 years by people who want to shut them down? Must be nice, not to know that.
livewyre
@Kay: Did anyone call all feminists reactionary? Are any feminists not capable of being reactionary, or radical? I forget – what does TERF stand for, again? Just how committed are you to this definition of feminism that is immune to being abused, but must defend all of its members against accusations of trans exclusion from trans feminists? This is bewildering. At least, I hope it is.
livewyre
And, wait a minute – this dictionary-pull about “reactionary” and “radical” diverts from the whole issue of whiteness. The theoretical one, the one that none of us experiences at all, or has any stake in defending for its own sake in spite of being an artificial and exclusionary category that ends up benefiting no one. Much like the definitions of feminism which trans people can never be part of, but only treated as attackers against. Hm.
Kay
@livewyre:
And, just FYI, what you’re talking about is “liberal”feminism as opposed to Leftist feminism. That was the fight in Second Wave feminism. Just inventing new psuedo feminist terms that no one who is actually familiar with the hitsory of the movement recognizes is also annoying. The thing has a real history and terms of art. It’s a sign of respect for the issues and the people who came before and fought to use them.
livewyre
@Kay: Not being one, I have no place to comment on whoever self-identifies as a “radical feminist”, trans-exclusionary or not. The history is what it is. When I used “reactionary” I meant in the literal sense and in ignorance of its background. I’ll be careful of that going forward.
But I am vitally interested in making space for feminism that isn’t exclusionary. I go so far as to call that a right, not a demand or a request. We’re veering a little close in practice to treating some of us as outsiders – be they variant, or of color. That has to end.
Mousebumples
I’m late to the thread(s), and not diving into the meat of things since I can’t stay to comment/debate back and forth, and I don’t feel right debating and not staying to see the response.
HOWEVER, I want to thank Eddie and other trans or queer posters and commenters for being here to share their view and help me to be a better ally. I’m a cis, het, White woman, and I knew there are things I don’t know. I appreciate all of you helping me to become a better version of myself.
Kay
@livewyre:
But the front page post used “reactionary” which I was ordered to understand as something other than the 40 year old trope used against feminists my whole life.
This only seems to work one way. I’m called to consider context and examine what I say, but no one else is when talking about women.
It’s A Ok to use archaic sexism terms about women! The femininazis are reactionary and radical! I must just take one for the team on that! You know what? I don’t have to. Don’t refer to feminists as “reactionary” or “radical” in a negative grouping or feminists will object to that. There’s a history there, just like there’s a history of anti trans bigotry in feminism. I’m more than willing to try to understand people but it works two ways.
It is not my duty as a woman to be accomodating to terms and depictions of women I find offensive anymore than it eddies duty to find common cause with anyone who calls eddie “it”. I’m no longer about taking a hit to keep the peace. Women have done enough of that.
livewyre
@Kay: Trans people are not a threat to feminism. Trans feminists are feminists. Trans women are women. I’m sorry if something is being depicted in a way that makes you uncomfortable. I wish we could agree on the terms of the conflict. I don’t know what else to say.
suilebhan
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes, please. I’m a lurker who is awfully damned tired of these circular firing squads.
Kay
@livewyre:
livewyre, if yousaid to me “I find this offensive as a trans person” (something I said) I would not respond by giving you a huge lecture on trans rights! I would not do that! Yet that’s what I get every time I defend feminism on this blog- I get tendentious lectures about feminism (half of which are fucking wrong on the facts – if you don’t actually know what Second Wave feminism is or the conflict between liberals and Leftists (which was much more about ideology than race- there were WOC on both sides) that’s fine but don’t LECTURE someone who does! I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.
Darkrose
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
If I’m a feminist woman, is it okay for me to criticize women who call themselves feminists but don’t consider trans women to be women, or who erase and ignore racism because it doesn’t affect them?
planet eddie
@siddhartha: Can’t remember if I responded because, wow, but lots of love to you <3
planet eddie
@sab: I am not a trans male.
This is crazy. You realize most people think I’m a woman, right? That I have been a feminist my whole life?
Paul in KY
@planet eddie: I think I misgendered you in a couple of my posts. Very sorry about that.