The 14th Amendment* has come up repeatedly in conversations about the debt ceiling this go-round. For a while, reports (NYT, for example) about senior White House staffers considering the constitutionality of the debt limit gave the impression that the admin was open to the idea of invoking it to prevent the House GOP from blowing up the economy by defaulting.
Using the 14th Amendment to short-circuit economic hostage-taking is an attractive idea for several reasons. Lots of legal scholars believe the 14th is a solid way to disarm the GOP hostage-takers permanently (though that opinion is far from unanimous). It’s a “weird trick,” but maybe not as weird as minting a trillion-dollar coin. And many folks, including me, thought perhaps the talk about using the 14th was a signal that Biden will not swerve in this game of chicken with McCarthy.
However, in remarks to reporters earlier this week after meeting with Congressional leaders, Biden seemed to throw cold water on the 14th idea, at least as a fix for the current round of cliff-dancing. Here’s a CNN article with the relevant quotes:
“I have been considering the 14th Amendment,” he told reporters from the Roosevelt Room. He said a man he has “enormous respect for,” Larry Tribe, “thinks that it would be legitimate, but the problem is it would have to be litigated.”
“I don’t think that solves our problem now,” Biden said, adding he may reexamine in the long run.
“I’ll be very blunt with you, when we get by this, I’m thinking about taking a look at, months down the road, as to see whether what the court would say about whether or not it does work,” Biden said.
(Sigh.) As envisioned by most liberal pundits, the 14th as a solution to the current standoff would entail Biden instructing the Treasury to ignore the debt ceiling on the grounds that it’s unconstitutional and make Repubs litigate the issue if they’re so dead-set on tanking the economy. I suppose that move would spook the markets, but probably not as much as defaulting on the debt would?
It would kick the issue to the judiciary, so the question is, would the reflexively-hostile-to-Democrats Leonard Leo Court have the stones to torpedo the economy to hurt Biden politically? Maybe. Maybe not. But forcing them to rule on it — with the economy in the balance — seemed like part of the plan?
That’s the play most liberal commentators seemed to assume Biden had in mind, including Josh Marshall, who now suspects Biden’s comments indicate “the White House simply isn’t in shape for this fight” and fears the admin has an “attitude toward the courts and the broader political context which seems hopelessly stuck in the past.”
I think it’s way too soon to jump to that conclusion. But the remarks do seem to take the 14th Amendment off the table as a short-term solution. Biden also told reporters that he doesn’t think anyone has studied the feasibility of the coin, so that sounds like a nonstarter too given the timing. I sure hope the admin has other tricks up its sleeve. As usual, we’ll have to wait and see.
*The relevant clause: “the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.” I’m not a lawyer, but using that clause to rule the debt limit unconstitutional seems like a more solid argument than interpreting the 2nd Amendment to mean everyone can own AR-15s.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Are agreements made under duress considered valid? It’s certainly not an ethical way to approach legislating.
Edmund dantes
“I’ll be very blunt with you, when we get by this, I’m thinking about taking a look at, months down the road, as to see whether what the court would say about whether or not it does work,” Biden said.
^^^ it is being litigated already. And this is classic stuff. I really hope this is just posturing.
because the only way out of this is negotiating away something. Which has to be a non starter. McCarthy is stuck. The gop caucus is a lot more full of people that want the bomb to go off than last time. And a bunch of other people so afraid of their primaries that they will defer to the bomb throwers.
So unless Biden is ready to repeat the mistakes of the Obama White House (and even they learned the second time but with a very different gop house makeup) he needs to be willing to try one of the “one weirdo trick things.
A Man for All Seaonings (formerly Geeno)
The Roberts’ Court would just say that since these debts weren’t incurred as a result of insurrection/rebellion, the 14th Amendment doesn’t apply.
Cheryl
I think it would be an interesting ploy to use the 14th amendment as a “temporary” measure…inform Congress he will continue to pay their bills until they send him a piece of legislation instructing him otherwise (like that will ever happen)
Omnes Omnibus
I don’t see those remarks as taking anything off the table. Right now, it is in the country’s and the White House’s best interest to continue pushing for a clean bill. Anything that detracts from that goal will be talked down. Those options can always be revisited as circumstances warrant.
Jerzy Russian
I think President Biden will “win” this fight eventually, but the ride will be scary as fuck. I would like to think that a (perhaps slim?) majority of the 0.1% understand they need a functioning society in order to be “rich”, and in the end they will instruct the GOP lawmakers to raise the damn ceiling and move on.
Burnspbesq
Spouse and I live on OASDI benefits and investment income, so we have a dog in this fight. I’m not crazy about being a hostage. Hoping for a discharge petition that will bring a sensible solution to the House floor, and then we’ll see whether there are five Rs who’ll do the right thing.
kindness
The $1T coin would completely ravage Republicans. They would have such a melt down. For that reason alone it’s a worth while thing to do
I mean, let Republicans sue in order to expressly tank the world economy.
narya
Here’s the other thing, though, that Josh is missing, IMHO: there are some areas where neither the executive branch nor Congress really want a decision from a court, because they know what might help them now might bite them in the ass later–better to leave it vague. In addition, I have little doubt this court would tank the economy.
I also have little doubt that Biden & team have gamed this out in multiple ways–I think that clip from the morning post, where he presses the reporter, is evidence of that. We might even see a repeat of the speech in Philadelphia, where he takes it to the public–and given the free publicity that CNN gave TFG, he has some leverage in getting it broadcast, too.
It could still all go to hell, of course.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: It does make sense to keep the focus on a clean bill, so maybe the remarks were a deflection. Good point.
NotMax
@Burnspbesq
This. This. This.
MisterDancer
@Omnes Omnibus: Agreed. With due respect to Josh, the tea leaf reading approach he’s been taking just seems to add drama where it doesn’t apply.
No one from this Administration, to my awareness, ever even hinted they would take this specific approach, outside anodyne “all options are on table” comments, which these from Biden do not roll back.
Rather, he’s just pointing out the very real obstacles in place for the 14th approach, ones that are unlikely to get resolved in time for any Debt Ceiling Crash to not impact our economy. That’s it. That’s the “tweet.”
Lyrebird
@Burnspbesq: Could I ask what you think of this lawsuit ?
Asking you and our other esteemed barrister jackals as well.
patrick II
The Republican party is a partnership between the very rich and MAGA white nationalists. If you invoked the 14th and kept spending, would the very rich be in favor of blowing up the world economy and making their dollars untrustworthy? You might find a split in the Republican party on this particular policy. I don’t know which way they would go, but I think the bought and paid-for Supremes would follow.
Cameron
I think we’re screwed. Oh well, wouldn’t be the first time.
Randal Sexton
Larry Tribe seems to be having a conversation with Biden via MSNBC shows wrt 14th amendment. — he was on Lawrence O’Donnell last night and he responded to Bidens saying “It will have to be litigated” comment by saying that basically it would not have to be litigated prior, but after it was invoked . He was pretty persuasive. I have not given up on Biden using the 14th. However I dont think it will happen until we are in that situation where we are very close to a default, and this will be after the equity markets are doing that thing where they are going down by 5% or more per day. ( Also manically going UP by large %’s per day ). VIX gonna get crazy. I would put a transcriptions of Tribe up, but Im hustling to get on a ferry and drive a thousand miles. Oh, here is a link https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/laurence-tribe-president-s-duty-is-to-pay-debts-despite-gop-giving-him-an-impossible-choice-173606469979
Azhrie139
The real answer is the “moderate” “oligarch” dems as always is going to capitulate to the terroristic fascists trying to destroy our country. I know this isn’t a profound conclusion, but it is accurate. To be clear I am not even really referring to Biden here per se.
Another Scott
DeLong on his Substack talked about consol bonds (bonds with no maturity date which don’t add to the debt) a week or so ago. They were talked about in 2013 as well.
WaPo:
Opinion by James Leitner and Ian Shapiro
November 14, 2013
There are no legal issues with do this – Treasury can issue any kinds of bonds it wants.
I don’t expect them to issue them this time, either, but it is an option that should be considered if nothing can get through the House in time.
Grr…,
Scott.
patrick II
An advantage of keeping spending during the debt ceiling crisis is that the Republicans are the ones who have to sue and destroy the economy. And that includes Republican court members. While if Joe is the one who sues there is no emergency he is attacking the “status quo” and there is less leverage. I don’t think there is a chance in hell that the Supremes will find for Joe under those circumstances. Partisanship will rule when there is no price to be paid. And the trouble is, you really don’t want to go to court when you expect to lose not just that case, but one that will create a precedent for the future.
Hoodie
Could be he doesn’t want to lull anyone into thinking passage through the debt ceiling will be okey dokey simply because he invokes the 14th amendment. The “when we get past this” and “months down the road” comments seems to indicate that there may be some sort of short-term debt ceiling extension in the works (e.g., even a discharge petition might result in that if you want the Senate GOP to go along) that will kick the can down the road a few months so that, for example, it coincides with the budget deadline. Why else would he say that? I don’t see how he can even agree to anything right now, as the GOP has no specific budget proposals other than some topline bullshit about an across the board 47% cut in all discretionary spending other than defense. That will never get through the Senate.
bbleh
@Omnes Omnibus: I concur. Biden is a pol, so he prefers to keep things in the political realm for now, and to invoke the 14th Amendment, or mint a $1T coin (what would they put on it?), or declare they’re gonna issue “consol” bonds, or any of the other potential “solutions” would immediately terminate discussions.
Now it’s true that negotiation requires an empowered counterparty, and it’s still an open question whether McQarthy really has any negotiating power, but it appears the WH thinks it’s in their interest at least to pretend he does, so there we are. (Plus, some political solutions, eg a discharge petition, involve McQarthy publicly disclaiming them, so even without an empowered Squeaker they might still come to an agreement.)
I think it’s still too early to say. I think what may suddenly focus their minds is, say, a stock crash, or a big upset in the T-bill market, or some other dollar-denominated crisis. That sort of thing would certainly get the phones ringing on the Hill …
Kelly
I’ve read a few items on the legal contradictions between the debt limit, appropriations and the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974. My definitely not expert understanding is the Impoundment Control act says the President must spend legally appropriated money while the debt limit says the President can’t get the money. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Another Scott
@kindness: Back in the Obama years there was some administration statement along the lines of “Treasury will not mint a $1T coin, and if they did, the Federal Reserve would not accept it.” I think that’s right.
If you can mint a $1T platinum coin, why not mint a $100M Trillion platinum coin and take care of the debt limit problem forever?? It doesn’t make sense that the law allowing the Mint to make platinum commemorative coins of “any” denomination could be used this way.
I like the “consol bond” solution, but even that has issues (because of the history of Congress limiting total US government debt outstanding), but maybe nobody will have standing to challenge it…
We’ll see!
Cheers,
Scott.
Kelly
I do not understand why the debt limit isn’t a line in the appropriations or budget bills instead of it’s own thing. Once we’ve decided how much money to spend calculating the needed debt limit should be trivial. I realize I’m not the first person puzzled by this.
Anyway
Wonder if the Biden admin response would be different if Ron Klain was still CoS…
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Anyway:
What do you mean?
Betty
@Kelly: That was a key point that Lawrence Tribe made. The President has two conflicting duties. Why shouldn’t the Constitutional one prevail, especially given the consequences of failing to honor the country’s debts? I don’t see it as a trick but as the responsible thing to do. The consol bonds also seem like a reasonable approach.
Burnspbesq
@Lyrebird:
It’s crap. Plaintiffs don’t have standing.
catclub
another thing Obama needed to do with a senate supermajority was cancel the debt ceiling law.
negotiating on the debt after the 2010 election cancelled the power of holding both houses is recognized as an own goal.
owlbrick
My take on it has been, and remains, that he means it’s off the table *for now*. Whether that’s still the case in two weeks remains to be seen.
Baud
I am wary of liberal bandwagons, including this 14th Amendment one. I support whatever Biden wants to do, short of capitulating wholesale to the Republicans on the bill the House passed, and I blame Republicans for any fallout for not raising the debt ceiling.
Burnspbesq
@patrick II:
That may have been true in the past, but it ignores the current composition of the Republican primary electorate. The lunatics are in complete control of the asylum.
Geminid
One factor here is that it’s not known exactly when federal spending will hit the debt ceiling. Secretary Yellen has posited June 1 as the probable date, but two mornings ago Politico Playbook described a detailed and “wonky” analysis by the Bipartisan Policy Center:
It seems to me that whether it’s June or August will not affect the Democrats’ strategy (and I think the strategy is basically a sound one).
Hover, dragging this out a couple more months could be really detrimental to the mental health of people who are already experiencing Pre-Traumatic Stress Disorder over this question. But the rest of us can at least go out and buy a bunch of liquor to help boost this month’s excise tax receipts!
Sean
Frustrating thing is, McCarthy has the easiest way out, which would be put a face-saving bill on the floor that doesn’t really cut anything, but raises the ceiling with promises of real budget negotiations. Biden publicly acknowledges those negotiations with specific items he’d put on the table (he’s already indicated he’d likely cut covid funding requests), get assurance from dems that they’ll help him fend off the far right when they challenge for the gavel (in exchange for a clean vote on this and maybe a handful of other priorities). Both sides claim victory.
This is purely a fantasy because McCarthy is a coward who is afraid he’d lose a primary and would never put country above himself, or help democrats, but it would work and it would be mostly painless.
RaflW
The GOP line for weeks has been that they made an offer and it’s on Biden to counter-offer. Then the head of the party said last night that Republicans will just “have to do a default”.
Of course our both sides press is ignoring this terroristic threat since they can all machinate on wether the disinfomercial (wish I could claim that, saw it on the social medias last night) was ‘newsmaking’ or just a bullshit factory.
Because of course the ‘news’ being made is all theater criticism, not on anything, y’know, substantive like “You guys gotta do a default” aimed at McCarthy [forehead slap dot gif].
Jim Appleton
@Betty: Tribe was clear that there’s nothing to litigate. Who is damaged by the Executive spending budgeted funds, limit or no?
NotMax
Wait a cotton-pickin’ minute. Didn’t George Santos already pay off the national debt?
//
Baud
Maybe a total economic collapse will convince the voters of New York not to succumb to crime panics promoted by NY media.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Out of his own pocket and he’s still the richest man in the world, nay, the galaxy.
catclub
No, they are still a partnership. the only thing the (federal) GOP actually passes is tax cuts for the rich. meanwhile, the rich make sure that the rest of the crazy GOP is considered respectable by the NYT and the media.
Anyway
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I have lots of respect for Ron Klain – he sees thro the Rethugs. not so sure about Zients (his replacement).
cain
@Sean: That’s never going to happen. McCarthy is a very weak leader and is not particularly saavy. He’s a hyena not a lion.
Citizen Alan
@Cameron: What is personally frustrating about this is that, of course, this is all happening against the backdrop of me moving 3000 miles across the country for a new job! A job that potentially might not be there by the time I move if the worst happens with the debt ceiling. I mean, it probably will. It’s not like bankruptcies will stop because the economy crashes; more likely the opposite. But it’s highly likely that some kind of shutdown will ensue that means I don’t get paid for some period of time after I start.
I’m going to Fresno on May 22 to look for an apartment. And I will get back to North Mississippi just in time to learn whether the Republican arsonists have set fire to the whole nation.
gene108
If Biden invoke the 14A now, there’d be chaos. Republicans would go judge shopping. Sue. Given the seriousness of default, it’ll probably rise to the top of the docket. Wingnut judge declares the 14A doesn’t negate the debt ceiling, and Biden has no authority to pay debts.
We’ll then be in default without a clear path forward as to pay the bills.
Case would get appealed and given the novelty of the issue, I doubt anyone knows how an Appeals Court or the SCOTUS would rule.
Anyway
@Baud:
I have seen this multiple times and don’t get it — assigning blame is fine but doesn’t accomplish much if it leaves the economy in tatters and a generation of savings etc wiped out.
brantl
Citizen Alan
@Lyrebird: I will laugh my ass off if the judge in that case enters a nationwide injunction against the Debt Ceiling Act and somehow manages to cite to a Kasmaryk opinion to do so.
Mai Naem mobile
If it got litigated wouldn’t it take several months for the litigation? Meanwhile they can’t stop Biden. I would think buying time would be a reasonable goal.
Citizen Alan
@Burnspbesq: What does standing even mean anymore
Edit: Just to expand on this, standing was a complex issue I struggled mightily with in my Federal Jurisdiction class. And now, it seems the concept has been reduced to “Standing exists if an ignorant Republican is pissed about something.”
Baud
@Anyway:
If it’s not worthwhile for you, don’t do it.
Ohio Mom
@Burnspbesq: Yeah, Ohio Dad’s and my main source of income is (as it is colloquially known) Social Security Retirement, and for Ohio Son, it’s SSDI (on Dad’s retirement). So I am also having all the “dog in this fight” feelings.
Ohio Dad, normally one of the most pessimistic people I know on political matters, says the one bright spot is that Biden is on our side. That is also what I am holding on to.
Sean
@cain: To be fair, I did say it was pure fantasy already. I’m just saying it is frustrating, because any real leader would take such an easy out.
I fully believe we’re headed to default. Beyond that, who knows. Discharge petition, maybe, if the Dow plunging 2000 points a day spooks 5 republicans and the senate GOP doesn’t filibuster. 14th amendment still seems like one of the only plausible non congressional options.
New Deal democrat
@Another Scott: While there are no “good” solutions, “[Consol] bonds with no maturity date which don’t add to the debt“ look very much like the least worst solution.
Mind you, anything Biden does is going to get taken to court (probably in Abilene, Texas) in a heartbeat.
My own personal back-up plan would be to close down every federal facility, starting with the airports, in red State and Congressional Districts. That would get taken to court too, but the problem any court would face is that Congress hasn’t given the Executive any direction under law as to the priority of cutbacks if the debt limit is hit. And hitting the debt limit presumably means that *something* has to be cut back.
I could easily see even this SCOTUS calling it a “political question: and punting it right back to Congress to solve.
Kelly
@Betty: Tribe is referring to contradictions with the 14th amendment. The Impoundment Act is yet another legal contradiction, statutory law passed after Nixon refused to spend money on things Congress had appropriated.
artem1s
It’s not the Biden Admin that’s hopelessly stuck in the past, MF. But Biden has to deal with those who are and has shown he’s willing to play the long game if that’s the best way to achieve lasting changes. These assholes with their “one weird trick” bullshit don’t care about kicking the can down the road and wreaking havoc on the rest of the world. Biden does.
Redshift
@Kelly:
If I recall correctly, the debt ceiling is a weird law that was passed after World War I to get past some budget standoff, basically “if you vote for the appropriations that need to happen, we’ll let you pass this bill that lets you pretend you won on opposing spending.”
It was never intended to be permanent, but it was always easier to have a routine voice vote to raise it than to repeal it and have to explain to voters (just like now) that it really doesn’t have anything to do with borrowing or spending. Then radicalized Gingrich Republicans got into power, and realized it could be a weapon. Kinda of like what happened with the filibuster.
Shalimar
@Randal Sexton: I saw Tribe’s discussion with O’Donnell and he made an excellent point about 14th Amendment litigation: What exactly can SCOTUS do? Are they willing to tank the economy by ordering all spending to stop except debt repayments? Are they going to shut down the military?
It really puts those 6 right-wing Justices in a position where everyone will blame them for whatever happens if they vote with the hostage-takers.
Ohio Mom
@Citizen Alan: I am between and betwixt. I am so excited for you, that your dream of leaving Mississippi behind for life is coming true, and to California no less! (if you have mentioned this before, I skipped that thread).
But I am afraid to jinx this good fortune of yours. Maybe save my congratulations for when the moving dust settles.
Redshift
@New Deal democrat: According to Krugman, all of the “weird tricks” (including the platinum coin) amount to normal borrowing in economic terms, but they exploit loopholes in the language of the law to not “count” as debt for purposes of the debt ceiling. And since they’re normal borrowing, they wouldn’t be harmful economically.
Kelly
@Redshift: I now recall that like the filibuster Manchin and Sinema kept us from disarming the debt limit.
Redshift
@artem1s:
But raising the debt ceiling is also kicking the can down the road, with repeated harmful effects every time since the GOP started weaponizing it. The only non-weird way to play the long game is to repeal the debt limit when Democrats are in power, and we always have more important things to do (or a thin Manchinema majority.)
The 14th isn’t kicking the can down the road if it works. Similarly with consol bonds and stuff — once you’ve established you can do it, the debt limit has no teeth. Those both seem less likely to wreak havoc on the world than repeatedly negotiating with terrorists.
Baud
Via Reddit
Omnes Omnibus
@Anyway: I doubt that anyone is looking forward to having a chance to blame the GOP. If, however, something bad happens, we need to jump on the GOP with both feet and not accept any deflection of blame from them.
Gravenstone
I humbly suggest a raised middle finger pointed at an elephant.
NotMax
@brantl
Simple. Dolt 45’s likeness.
R’s wouldn’t dare challenge that.
//
Hoodie
@Baud: They won’t be missed.
hueyplong
@Baud: With luck, applications will exceed estimates and they’ll all be accepted.
Baud
@Hoodie:
@hueyplong:
Red wave to Russia!
jonas
Can anyone explain why the stupid debt ceiling law hasn’t been challenged as violating the 14th Amendment yet? It’s been around for quite some time, but this is the first time I recall people seriously discussing its constitutionality. It seems to me that a big retirement or hedge fund or someone like that would have standing to argue that their interests could be irreparably harmed if the government were to default, which is theoretically possible under the debt limit law.
Kelly
Hard Agree. Our government has an appalling historical maze of polite agreements which have been weaponized by the Republicans.
MisterForkbeard
@Baud: This is GREAT. The entire Republican Congress and all the R Supreme Court members can move out there!
Fair Economist
@Another Scott:
Well, minting a couple more $1T coins isn’t very difficult; just knock a few off when needed. But minting enough to ignore the debt limit is a good idea. The platinum coin won’t circulate; it’s just a workaround for the Treasury to issue electronic money, which it absolutely should be able to do. Unfortunately the Federal Reserve Act handed printing the goverment’s money, physical and electronic, to banks, which is really messed up.
NotMax
@Baud
Just wait until they’re conscripted the day after the lease signing check clears.
NotMax
@jonas
Because it’s been uncontroversial “must pass” legislation for most of its life.
Rocking the boat while under sail not generally recommended.
planetjanet
@Omnes Omnibus:
Exactly. He is leaving space for non-MAGA republicans to join with the Democrats for a clean bill. He is giving them the opportunity to stand up for the country. It is the best thing that could happen to break the fever. This warming up to the 14th amendment also lets those wavering republicans know that if they vote with the crazies, he may just keep paying the bills and they will have betrayed the country for nothing. I think it is brilliant.
JMG
@jonas: I believe on such suit has been filed, by a group of federal employees. They would have standing since a default is a threat to their paychecks.
Gravenstone
@Baud: Please, threaten us with a good time of taking our loudest miscreants off our hands! Of course, most would refuse to go once they find out their beloved guns can’t make the trip with them.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Hahahaha let me stop laughing before I break the blog
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: They did a recruitment video that shows a middle-aged father, a veteran of some unspecified war, re-upping so that he can buy his daughter an iPhone. It beggars belief.
JoyceH
@planetjanet:
I think so too. Problem is that too many of the crazy caucus are bone-deep ignorant, and don’t understand what they’re doing. I’m pretty sure they think default is the same thing as a government shutdown, which we’ve done a few times before without significant damage to the global economy. (You can tell Trump thinks that too, based on his loony-tunes town hall last night.) The ones that know better will get tired of trying to explain it to them.
BlueGuitarist
@JMG:
lawsuit filed by National Association of Government Employees
https://rollcall.com/2023/05/09/labor-union-challenges-constitutionality-of-debt-limit-law/
Miss Bianca
@Baud: OMG. That is some sick humor there. “200 families” already, huh?
Sure, Jan.
Layer8Problem
@Another Scott: I’d never sell consols.
Ahhh, what am I saying, I probably would.
mrmoshpotato
Happy Twilight Zone Day to all!
BlueGuitarist
Would a declaration of the debt ceiling breach as national emergency provide Joe some additional room to maneuver? By declaring a phony emergency TFG got himself extensive spending powers, including unchecked spending of funds for different purposes than originally authorized.
O-T: Miserable, unshakeable headache not helped by failing to avoid thinking about an elephant
read here about CNN’s Fascist Rally last night and clicked one of Aaron’s clips
no surprise the lying liar lied about his liability for sexual assault; sickening giggling of his minions reminded me, Christine Blasey Ford: “indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter.”
Deplorables think it’s funny their tool wasn’t liable for rape because his disgusting tiny mushroom is smaller than his pinky.
Letter from Samuel Adams to Richard Henry Lee: “So great is the Wickedness of some Men, & the stupid Servility of others….” (Dec. 3, 1787).
O. Felix Culpa
@narya:
Same. Biden is a savvy old coot (one of the benefits of age and experience), and he has topnotch advisors. There’s no way that they haven’t mapped out Plans A-Z for the debt situation. Not sure what planet Josh M. is on or what administration he’s been watching for the past several years, but the track record suggests his assertion that “the White House isn’t in shape for this fight” is, well, wrong.
ETA: Having plans is not the same thing as having guaranteed outcomes. Biden ain’t the only player in this game, and each plan comes with a set of contingencies. Sadly, there’s no One Weird Trick that will fix the republic for us.
tobie
@JoyceH: The question for me is who are the non-MAGA Republicans in Congress. Do we have 5? Nancy Mace was supposed to be one of them but she went full-steam ahead with the ‘Biden took bribes and was involved in a child ponography ring’ in this crazy video
From Mace:
Is there a Republican willing to stand up to MAGA?
Jackie
@Ohio Mom: There’s a lot of us BJers in the same boat. Counting on uncle Joe to do right by us!
cain
@mrmoshpotato: huh! Today is my birthday – so cool? A lot of great things happened on May 11th!
Baud
@cain: Happy birthday!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@cain:
Happy Birthday!
Another Scott
https://mastodon.social/@jacobtlevy/110345877092162163
Hmm….
(via https://mastodon.social/@delong )
Cheers,
Scott.
Jackie
@BlueGuitarist: Saw The NY Times has an article that E Jean Carroll is considering filing another defamation suit against TFG. 🤞🏻🤞🏻
Repatriated
@NotMax:
Also, it’s never been a live controversy in a legal sense. The only way to have it tested in court is to actually, intentionality violate the limit. As you note, something not entirely without downside risk
Final edit: can’t get the formatting right from my phone. :(
Sister Golden Bear
Besides keeping his options open, Biden may also be playing rope-a-dope — “I’d hoped to resolve the debt ceiling through negotiations, but Republicans have been so intransigent about blowing up the economy, that I have no choice but the follow the Constitutional requirements…”
lowtechcyclist
Yes, I know the platinum coin isn’t going to be minted, at least not in this go-around. But the justifications I’ve heard for not going that route have reminded me more than anything else of the above dialogue from Bored of the Rings.
Jackie
The CNN MAGA Town Hall ratings are out!
“CNN was expecting a ratings bonanza after the E. Jean Carroll verdict, but instead, Trump drew fewer viewers than the last CNN town hall that he did in March 2016 (3.2 million), and it was nearly eight times fewer viewers than the 2015 Republican primary debate that CNN hosted (23 million).
Trump isn’t a huge ratings draw. CNN could have gone out and hired Tucker Carlson and pulled the same or better numbers than they got with Trump.
Before the town hall, Trump was all hype and promising record ratings. That didn’t come close to happening.”
https://www.politicususa.com/2023/05/11/cnn-trump-town-hall-ratings.html
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jackie:
MAGAworld and the Trump campaign/allies were doing a victory lap last night about how great the Town Hall was for them. I wonder what they’ll say now?
Probably some variation of “Fake news!” or they’ll just ignore this
Geminid
@tobie: There may be a few Republican members who’ll sign a discharge petition, but no one’s raising their hand yet. If 5 or more do, I expect it will be members planning on retirement like Don Bacon (NE), plus possibly Valadeo (CA) and Newhouse (WA). Those two won reelection despite voting to impeach Trump. Brian Fitzpatrick (PA) isn’t retiring, but he might survive a primary in his suburban district. Mace would not.
Democrats might have to throw the defectors a couple bones to get them on board, like token budget cuts and notional promises to keep the deficit down. But that would be decided closer to a vote. My understanding is that if DeSaulnier’s bill passes the procedural hurdles, it would be amended shortly before a House vote.
Amir Khalid
@Jackie:
She should sue him each and every time he gives her cause.
catclub
I think they are a GOOD solution.
Nelle
@Citizen Alan: About the time my sister is putting her condo in Fresno up for sale. She and her husband are moving permanently to Kinshasa, DRC. Good luck on finding a place.
catclub
@lowtechcyclist:
Yes, distasteful to ‘experts’ but they cannot tell why in a clear way. Also same for consols.
Geminid
@Baud:
Rating: 🌟☆☆☆☆
“Worst Home Owners Association ever!”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m a Ron Klain fan, too, but he didn’t have a vote in the House, Senate, or Supreme Court. I do not understand this investment in staffers
Let me retroactively introduce you to: Byron Dorgan, Kent Conrad, Tim Johnson, Max Baucus, Ben Nelson, James Webb, Mary Laundrieu, Evan Bayh, Blanche Lincoln, and Mark Pryor. I wouldn’t have placed any bets on Tom Carper, Michael Bennet, Carl Levin, Dianne Feinstein or current MSNBC firebrand Claire McCaskill on any move that would have been portrayed as “overtly partisan” or “overreach”, nor that fading blowhard Robert Byrd. Then of course, the one, the only: Joe Lieberman.
I don’t remember the House composition as well, but a few names that pop out are Ike Skelton, Melissa Bean and Bart Stupak
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@lowtechcyclist:
@catclub:
I can’t understand either.
“Oh, the Fed won’t accept it!”
Gee, would the Fed want to be seen as responsible for a default? I don’t think so
satby
@cain: Happy Birthday to you too! Your astral twin NotMax gave you a shoutout this morning.
BlueGuitarist
@Jackie:
thanks. I hope so!
can she also sue CNN for providing a platform for
broadcastingamplifying the defamatory statements they must have known would result from their evil programming?Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The one weird trick aspect of it that appeals to some would spark disbelief and even inflation fears among many normies.
catclub
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Thanks [not] for that reminder of the firebrand wild eyed liberal wing of the Democratic Senate caucus circa 2009.
The fact that they all voted for the Healthcare bill clouded my memory.
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
And once the fears failed to immediately materialize, how long would they continue to worry about them?
I’m thinking two days, tops.
Layer8Problem
@lowtechcyclist: Well, wait a minute, would this trillion dollar coin be negotiable, like “legal tender for all debts public and private” negotiable? Could it fit in a pocket? Would it have to be under massive guard somewhere in Washington or in the vaults of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York so someone like Tom Cruise in a Mission Impossible movie couldn’t boost it? This didn’t end well with the trillion dollar bill Truman sent to Europe for postwar reconstruction, in the care of one C. Montgomery Burns.
Citizen Alan
@Nelle:
How much Is she asking for it?
Nelle
@New Deal democrat: What is to stop taxpayers taking it to court In blue state after blue state? Snow them. We shouldn’t just sit back and let Amarillo reign supreme.
UncleEbeneezer
On a completely unrelated note, pop God/s/ess*, Janelle Monae has a new single out and the video is rather (gulp) eye-opening!
!!!Warning: very much NSFW!!
The song itself, Lipstick Lover, is kinda meh to me, but the video is a wonderful, ribald and very innuendo-filled celebration of Queer Black Love. Like most of her other videos, it’s very sensual and everyone in it is pretty stunningly attractive. Happy Thursday! Enjoy!
*Monae identifies as Non-Binary and uses both She/Her and They/Them pronouns
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: You have remember that most people don’t realize that the debt ceiling is bullshit. They, despite being told multiple times, still think it is increasing the national debt (also not a problem). They see the coin as a parlor trick to allow the debt to increase. The fact that they are wrong doesn’t matter. It is the one approach that seems to violate household finance rules.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Deleted
JPL
@cain: Happy Day indeed. I for one hope that trump is indicted again on your special day, but were running out of time.
Enjoy anyway!
kindness
Put Obama on the $1T coin. Michelle can be on the back side. Make 5 of them and then deposit them & hold them in Ft. Knox.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): FFS, it’s not the coin or default right now. If it reaches that point, I will agree that it needs to be done. Until then, leave the Biden’s people some room to maneuver. And take few deep breaths.
ETA: I guess this is what I deserve for forgetting that I gave up trying to talk you off of the ledge.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
ETA Gotcha
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m highly dubious about the coin as a strategy, but feel very strongly it has to be at least six inches in diameter
Baud
I would support a trillion dollar Bitcoin.
cain
@Jackie: That maybe true – and good that it sucked ratings wise. But the information out of that townhall was widely covered on social media. I don’t know if they made money but if the intent was to get attention – I think CNN got that.
cain
@Baud:
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Thank you kind sirs – I’m about 6 months older than the blog father. :-)
Omnes Omnibus
@cain: HBD
cain
@satby: ohhhh! thank you! woot woot – ! :)
Thanks JPL and Omnes Omnibus! :)
DaBunny42
@Randal Sexton: That was my thought. Sure, it’ll have to be litigated…by those who want to constrain the Executive Branch. I don’t think SCOTUS would issue a preliminary injunction. But if they did, we’d be no worse than we are now. And that would do even more damage to the courts rapidly dwindling rep. Hell, at that point Biden could even pull a “John Roberts has issued his ruling, now let him enforce it.”
NotMax
@cain
All the best, birthday buddy. Elevenses rock.
@Baud
On this week’s episode of Breaking Baud….
;)
Ken
@Baud: Out-of-the-box thinking like this is why I’ve been a perennial Baud! 20XX! supporter since Baud! 19XX!
Not a bitcoin, though; set up a new NFT, mint a billion of them, sell one for $1000, and use that as the “market value” for all the unsold ones.
(In recent Congressional testimony, crypto advocates noted that their business would be impossible if the SEC or CFTC enforced existing laws against things like the above.)
Layer8Problem
@Baud: The electricity required to mint such a Bitcoin would melt the planet! We’d never survive!
Chris Johnson
@Baud: I do think the funniest possible outcome would be the trillion dollar platinum coin, but with Doge on it.
Much faith. Full credit. Wow.
Omnes Omnibus
@NotMax: HBD to you as well.
Layer8Problem
@Chris Johnson: I’d pay good money to get one of those coins, minted just like that.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
To clarify, I meant gotcha as in “I understand”
cain
Do you all do this? Look up wikipedia on your birthday? – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_11
A few things of note:
330 – Constantine the Great dedicates the much-expanded and rebuilt city of Byzantium, changing its name to New Rome and declaring it the new capital of the Eastern Roman Empire.
973 – In the first coronation ceremony ever held for an English monarch, Edgar the Peaceful is crowned King of England, having ruled since 959 AD.[2] His wife, Ælfthryth, is crowned queen, the first recorded coronation for a Queen of England
1857 – Indian Rebellion of 1857: Indian rebels seize Delhi from the British.[9]
and happy birthday to Minnesota!
1858 – The Minnesota Territory gains enough population to enter as the 32nd state of the United States of America;
Geminid
There os some significant Turkish election news. One of the four candidates, Ince Muharram, has dropped put. He had polled as high as 6% but was fading when he took himself out of the race. His name will still be on Sunday’s ballot.
A survey taken by respected polling outfit Kondo showed opposition candidate Kemal Kilicdoraglu leading 49.3% to President Erdogan’s 44.7%. The poll was taken before Mr. Ince dropped out, and observers think most of his voters will go to Kilicdoraglu or else sit out. So it’s now possible that Kilicdoraglu could exceed 50% and avoid a runoff (assuming Kondo’s poll is accurate enough).
Ince’s announcement and the poll sparked a rally by the Turkish stock market
Layer8Problem
@Geminid: Well, that’s upbeat news. Thanks!
Old School
cain
@NotMax: By the by, ever looked up our birthday on wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_11
A few things of note:
330 – Constantine the Great dedicates the much-expanded and rebuilt city of Byzantium, changing its name to New Rome and declaring it the new capital of the Eastern Roman Empire.
973 – In the first coronation ceremony ever held for an English monarch, Edgar the Peaceful is crowned King of England, having ruled since 959 AD. His wife, Ælfthryth, is crowned queen, the first recorded coronation for a Queen of England
1857 – Indian Rebellion of 1857: Indian rebels seize Delhi from the British.
and happy birthday to Minnesota!
1858 – The Minnesota Territory gains enough population to enter as the 32nd state of the United States of America;
sdhays
@Jackie: That’s really bad news for Trump. If he’s no longer a ratings draw, the media is going to (eventually) notice and the offers to debase themselves for Trump-generated ratings are going to dry up. Bothsides and Republican bias will still be there, but $$$ justification for chasing Trump unreservedly is no longer there.
This makes Licht look like a moron, which is worse than evil in executive circles.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
This won’t just get taken to court. Whatever he does that isn’t paying a negotiated ransom, they will impeach him over. The craziest of the crazies have been itching to do that since he first took office.
sdhays
@cain:
North Dakota taunts its neighbor – “We didn’t even need enough population to be a territory before becoming a state. Neener neener.”
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sure, but you’re assuming they will continue to *think* about it after a distraction or two, and the sky still doesn’t fall.
What, are millions of normies going to pull all their money out of the banks like this was *It’s a Wonderful Life*? Seriously??
Jackie
@Amir Khalid: That’s my thought, too.
Jackie
@BlueGuitarist: I haven’t a clue, but it would be cool if she could! Then “maybe” networks would think twice about giving TFG free, unfettered airtime to spout defamatory lies.
Another Scott
@cain: Back in the dark mists of time, some guy named “Gabe” ran alt.happy.birthday.to.me on USENET. He had all kinds of interesting stuff listed by birthday. I assume that someone cloned it for the web somewhere…
Cheers,
Scott.
cain
@Another Scott: I don’t think I’ve ever seen that alt group. I usually was hanging around rec.arts.* or comp.* :)
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: I get it. This is your solution of choice. I am telling you why it is not the preferred solution for others. Don’t get up in arms at me. If a clean bill can’t be passed, I am in favor of going 14th Amendment.
Kristine
The thread may be dead and someone else likely said it better, but my feeling is that Biden isn’t inclined to spell out what he plans to do because it would let Republicans off the hook and allow them to do the only thing they’re good at namely screech ‘foul’ and raise money off any number of “Biden the dictator” ads and emails. The MSM would play along. If/when he does anything, it’ll come out of the blue, processes would’ve been set up behind the scenes to explain/address the fallout, and Repubs would be left scrambling. Maybe behind the scenes, the string-pullers are prepping the legal challenges. We’ll know when we know.
Another Scott
@Another Scott:
He would post the lyrics to the Birthday Dirge monthly as well.
Ah, here it is:
Poor Gabriel’s Almanac for today (May 11). He’s still running it.
Happy birthday !
Cheers,
Scott.
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus: I get it, you can’t defend your bullshit but you don’t want to admit it’s bullshit, so you try to make it about me. Whatever.
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: Prenez un grip.
Larch
@Another Scott:
Either Krugman or DeLong (can’t remember which, don’t feel like rooting through old posts to find out) suggested a two-pronged strategy: assert that the debt limit is unconstitutional per the 14th, knowing that it will be litigated. While that’s going on, proceed with the bonds -premium or consol, take your pick.
If the debt limit was raised as it has been in the past, the Treasurer would be selling bonds anyway, so the only difference is that in this case you wouldn’t technically be adding to the debt. But in parallel, fight the good fight to get rid of that debt limit atrocity permanently. No reason you have to only do one or the other!
I do like DeLong’s suggestion here to go ahead & start publicizing a pilot program to sell consol (or premium) bonds. That would a) give bond trading companies at least a tiny head start on figuring out how to set up/program their bond trading software – take it from someone who used to work on financial/investment software projects – they need all the time they can get; and b) act as leverage against McCarthy, et al – “heh, we don’t need to negotiate on the debt limit, we’ve got these bonds to sell”
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I honestly appreciate your comments reassuring me. I really do. I walked away from the thread when I realized I was going down the same road I’ve been down before
Miss Bianca
@lowtechcyclist: Whoa, dude.
@Omnes Omnibus: Or, you know, what you said. Cuz it’s funnier.
Bokonon
One of the problems here is that the assumption that corporate leaders and the oligarch class would serve as the voice of reason, and will pull the GOP back from doing irresponsible, crazy things.
I think the problem is that the GOP actually is listening to the oligarchs – and some of the party’s biggest donors are radicals who probably are PUSHING for this confrontation. If not pushing for a default, under the idea that they can spin it as Biden’s fault and then consolidate power. Short term pain for the public, long term gain for them.
prostratedragon
Happy Birthday to cain and NotMax. Now say the name of that English queen three times fast.
cain
@Kristine:
Keeping Republicans in the dark is probably a good thing. It takes them about a few days to react anyways – since there are throwing a bunch of shit at the walls to see what sticks and then everyone will fall in line and start boosting that messaging.
We can be a lot more clever. What Biden did during the State of the Union is the kind of thing we want more of.
cain
@sdhays: They will always debase themselves. The cohort that is attracted to Trump are suckers – and will stay and watch all the commercials on CNN.
Scout211
deleted. wrong thread.
Bokonon
@tobie: Fox News is all over the feed with this new “Biden crime family” offensive they are waging. It is distressingly well presented and articulated. And people like Nancy Mace are serving as the mouthpieces to repeat it, and repeat it, and repeat it some more, with the hopes of getting the mainstream media to pick up on it.
SOMEONE was teeing up this hit job for a while, waiting for just the right moment.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Bokonon:
The thing is though, nobody cares about this “Biden crime family” stuff except Republicans. They’ve been holding these stupid hearings for months and have nothing to show for it. They’ve been trying for just as long and the media hasn’t picked up on it because it’s too inside baseball. To everyone outside the Right’s bubble, it’s gibberish
NotMax
@prostratedragon
There was a Queen Beetlejuice? Who knew?
;)
Gvg
@jonas: I don’t think it’s actually unconstitutional until we default and then someone has to challenge the law in the courts etc. The little breeches we have had until now always got settled before quickly.
until we default it’s like a religious ceremony or a play. Lots of motion, but not of core importance.
TriassicSands
@Bokonon:
The truly wealthy can afford to take a hit from default if, coming out the other side, it returns the GOP to power in D.C. They’ll make it all back and then some with the crazies running things.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@TriassicSands:
Warren Buffett doesn’t want to see a default, for example
lowtechcyclist
@Omnes Omnibus:
Look, if your position is that we shouldn’t do the coin because the normies would react badly, please explain what that reaction would be, and why it would make a difference.
Otherwise, it’s just one more bullshit argument.
TriassicSands
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
He’s not the truly wealthy I’m talking about. I was referring to the GOP’s donors. I’m sorry if that wasn’t obvious.
Omnes Omnibus
@lowtechcyclist: My fucking preference is the clean bill that Biden and the rest of the Dems are trying to get. Most of the others options have downsides. They are still better than default. I was simply answering the question of why there was resistance to the coin idea. I wasn’t making a policy argument.
catclub
@Old School: Elizabeth Holmes?
The Lodger
@prostratedragon: Never mind the queen, try saying “Duchess of Sussex” five times real fast.
sab
@prostratedragon: I looked up what had happened on my birthday. One was bad: Jefferson Davis inaugurated as president of confederacy.
Also too first cow ever to fly also got milked in air on my birthday long before I was born (1930) Good or bad? Cow probably wanted to stay on the ground.
More positively John Travolta born, probably later than me, but on the exact same day.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus:
Total agreement.