Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

If you are still in the GOP, you are an extremist.

Republicans don’t trust women.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

This fight is for everything.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

The GOP couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

Everybody saw this coming.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

I was promised a recession.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

Republicans in disarray!

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

He really is that stupid.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

You are here: Home / Politics / Trump Indictments / Witnesses or Targets Open Thread

Witnesses or Targets Open Thread

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I love this tweet:

There’s a magical place called Mar-a-Lago – where men enter as lawyers and emerge as witnesses.

Slight correction from me:  Why “Witnesses” and not “Targets”?

Gosh, a girl *gets busy with a new garden project, and suddenly there are three new attorney changes.  Yikes!

What did I miss?   Open thread.

Update:  *get your minds out of the gutter, not that kind of “gets busy”.  Phrasing.

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    89Comments

    1. 1.

      Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

      He has to run of out lawyers willing to represent him at some point. He’s been scraping the bottom of the barrel for awhile now.

      Seriously, who are these people willing to take Trump on as a client? We all know what he’s like by now

      Reply
    2. 2.

      Anonymous At Work

      Honestly, I thought the asterisk was to signify a justification for the use of “girl”.

      Reply
    6. 6.

      UncleEbeneezer

      Parlatore is making a lot of noise about how he still thinks what the justice department is doing is wrong . . . but he testified before a grand jury, and if he’s a witness against Trump, he can no longer represent Trump.

      Reply
    7. 7.

      Mai Naem mobile

      TFG has had so many lawyers that I can’t keep track of them. I didn’t  recognize Parlatore’s name so I did the Google. Here’s his bio from his law firm https://parlatorelawgroup.com/content/timothy-c-parlatore.

      Seems like TFG should have hung onto him since he’s apparently represented organized crime figures. I am not sure if I should be rooting for him to have been paid or not been paid since he might spill some legal beans if TFG stiffs him.

      Reply
    8. 8.

      West of the Rockies

      What was the name of that homely husband and wife lawyer team who were Trump enthusiasts a few years ago?  Joe something?  They may have been just smart enough to not contract with him to represent the orange loser.

      Reply
    11. 11.

      WaterGirl

      @Anonymous At Work: How funny, I nearly added another one for that!

      But then I realized that Trump has only had one female attorney – that I can recall, anyway – Jenne Ellis – and she didn’t quit, she just started hiding out to avoid subpoenas.

      Oh wait, there was “Habba”, too.

      Reply
    12. 12.

      Geminid

      @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Trump’s still getting proficient criminal attorneys. I think the three that are representing him in the case brought by DA Bragg are considered competent and experienced.

      Trump did go through some lightweights last year, but he seems to be taking a more serious approach now. Same with his campaign staff.

      I think he’s raised a lot of money for his legal defense, enough to pay sizable retainers. Trump is a cheapskate, but now his back’s against the wall and I think he knows it.

      Reply
    15. 15.

      Delk

      Chicago’s new mayor was sworn in Monday and Fox News sent a reporter to a diner! Imagine that. The owner is a veteran and the place was filled with veterans ready to be interviewed. Of course, all they did was complain and dog whistle.
      The diner, btw, was not in Chicago but in Naperville a suburb 40 miles west of the city. Guess they couldn’t be bothered to ask the local Fox people where the racist Chicago neighborhoods are located.

      Naperville, btw is a lovely place filled with decent people and one racist diner.

      Reply
    18. 18.

      WaterGirl

      @rikyrah: From what I have seen, they are not saying she is fired.  They are saying that  the 8, 9 and 10 pm slots are now filled, and Laurie Ingram isn’t filling any of of those.

      *Those pesky women are causing all sorts of problems at Fox, perhaps they will just get rid of all of them?

      Reply
    22. 22.

      rikyrah

      @Delk:

      Chicago’s new mayor was sworn in Monday and Fox News sent a reporter to a diner! Imagine that. The owner is a veteran and the place was filled with veterans ready to be interviewed. Of course, all they did was complain and dog whistle.
      The diner, btw, was not in Chicago but in Naperville a suburb 40 miles west of the city.

       

      If they wanted to talk to them about someone, then let it be about Lauren Underwood – their Congresswoman.

       

      Naperville has nothing to do with Chicago.

      They could have easily gone to Mount Greenwood, Beverly, or Northwest Side, if they were looking for Vallas voters.

      Reply
    23. 23.

      WaterGirl

      @rikyrah: Looks like they were careful to choose the diner so they could be sure to get the responses they wanted.

      edit: I have never seen what I would call a diner in either Naperville or Aurora!

      Reply
    25. 25.

      Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

      @Geminid:

      The question will of course be can he keep his mouth shut and listen to this top legal talent. His CNN Town Hall performance caused the judge in the New York trial to call a hearing, (I think) forbidding him from publicly speaking about court matters

      Reply
    30. 30.

      Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

      Looking up Laura Ingraham and the rumored line up changes, I was surprised by this info from a Daily Beast article:

      Since taking over the 11 p.m. hour in 2021 with his conservative “comedy” show, Gutfeld has christened himself the “King of Late Night” as his ratings have typically overshadowed the broadcast network’s late-night offerings. Also, along with Watters, he is the focal point of The Five, which had even overtaken Carlson in the ratings over the past year.

      Reply
    31. 31.

      Roger Moore

      @WaterGirl: ​
       

      Those pesky women are causing all sorts of problems at Fox, perhaps they will just get rid of all of them?

      If they do, they’ll start getting complaints about how the men are sexually harassing each other.

      Reply
    34. 34.

      MattF

      Slate article about how TFG’s ‘Town Hall’ gave the MAL prosecution a number of free gifts. I suspect that his lawyers are very aware of this and very pissed off. Also, I’ve found, fwiw, that Slate articles are easier to read with your browser in ‘private’ mode.

      Reply
    40. 40.

      Roger Moore

      @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

      His CNN Town Hall performance caused the judge in the New York trial to call a hearing, (I think) forbidding him from publicly speaking about court matters

      That’s going to be an ongoing problem for his campaign.  People are going to keep asking about his legal problems; they’re an obvious, easy, and legitimate source of questions.  So what’s he supposed to do: go against the judge’s orders or refuse to give adequate answers?   I guess the proper Trumpian response is to threaten to cut off any news media that dares to ask him questions about that stuff.  It will let him avoid talking about it and change the focus from his legal problems to his feud with whatever news outlet keeps asking questions.

      Reply
    48. 48.

      SiubhanDuinne

      @WaterGirl:

      But then I realized that Trump has only had one female attorney – that I can recall, anyway – Jenne Ellis – and she didn’t quit, she just started hiding out to avoid subpoenas. Oh wait, there was “Habba”, too.

      Sydney Powell. Victoria Toensing. Pam Bondi. That woman whose name I can’t remember who sat next to Rudy Giuliani that time he was loudly farting in court (I think she was a member of TFG’s legal team but might have just been there to, I dunno, fetch coffee or something).

      Reply
    50. 50.

      Barbara

      @SiubhanDuinne: Also, the parking garage lawyer from New Jersey and the woman who signed the certification of compliance that classified materials had been turned over.

      Reply
    52. 52.

      Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

      @Roger Moore:

      I guess the proper Trumpian response is to threaten to cut off any news media that dares to ask him questions about that stuff. It will let him avoid talking about it and change the focus from his legal problems to his feud with whatever news outlet keeps asking questions.

      Wouldn’t this just have a “what is he hiding” effect?

      Reply
    54. 54.

      Roger Moore

      @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

      Wouldn’t this just have a “what is he hiding” effect?

      I don’t know.  For an ordinary politician, it probably would.  At the very least, they would have to say, “the judge says I’m not allowed to talk about that” regularly and consistently enough that the media just gave up.  But I think the media would most likely play along with the feud angle.  It’s even easier than the “what’s he hiding” angle, and for the other media he’s not feuding with it lets them pretend they have a chance to get on his good side. Joke’s on them. Trump doesn’t have a good side.

      Reply
    55. 55.

      WaterGirl

      @Delk: Okay!  That’s not something you find if you google “diners Chicago”

      I woud bet good money that they had an agenda and some operative steered them toward Rosie’s.

      Reply
    56. 56.

      VOR

      TFG must be the worst possible client for a lawyer. He doesn’t listen to advice, he won’t shut up, and worst of all he won’t pay! The MAGA (My Attorney’s Got Attorneys) thing certainly doesn’t help either.

      Reply
    58. 58.

      Mai Naem mobile

      Victoria Toensing and Joseph DeGenova. More retreads from the Clinton  Monica era. They’re mentioned as some of the sender/recipient emails in the Rudy sexual harassment/non payment lawsuit. I vaguely remember them being considered to be hired for TFG’s impeachment but TFG didn’t like the way they ‘looked’ on tv.

      Reply
    66. 66.

      Jay

      @WaterGirl:

      24C here today, (75.9 F) better than yesterdays 39C, (102.2F), but the smoke is moving in. Visibility is down to about 3K. We will probably close up tomorrow and run the air purifier until the rains come in in 3 weeks.

      Reply
    69. 69.

      Ken

      @WaterGirl: I woud bet good money that they had an agenda and some operative steered them toward Rosie’s.

      You don’t think it was just an innocent mistake, going to the wrong city twenty miles away from Chicago to interview people about Chicago’s mayor?

      Reply
    70. 70.

      Dan B

      @persistentillusion:  I was leading a group of six from Gay Liberation who gave a presentation to a very terrified class.  They behaved as you would if you thought you were in a room with devils.  The administration found out and sent people to chase us out.  I seem to recall driving past the headquarters of the John Birch Society, brightly lit.  Fun! /s

      Reply
    71. 71.

      mrmoshpotato

      @Delk:

      Guess they couldn’t be bothered to ask the local Fox people where the racist Chicago neighborhoods are located. 

      Just look for the Let’s Go Brandon lawn signs!  Oh wait…

      Reply
    73. 73.

      WaterGirl

      @Delk:

      Guess they couldn’t be bothered to ask the local Fox people where the racist Chicago neighborhoods are located.

      That’s a very said sentence, but it’s perfect.

      Reply
    74. 74.

      mrmoshpotato

      @WaterGirl:

      My phone says 76 degrees right this minute. It also says Chicago is 58. Our weather is usually much closer than that. 

      What’s up? Big storm brewing off the lake?

      No storms in the forecast (not that I wouldn’t dig one.). I’m good with no having to run my AC.

      Anyway, congrats on getting busy in the garden.

      Reply
    76. 76.

      AWOL

      @WaterGirl: Pesky? Her gay brother spilled the beans. Her father was an alcoholic, abusive neo-nazi and his daughter bought into it fully. And we all know about her homophobia from her Dartmouth days with that ghoul from India.

       

      I think out of that whole Ship of Fools, she may be the one most dedicated to re-forming a new Reich.

      Reply
    77. 77.

      UncleEbeneezer

      WashingtonCNN — 
      The National Archives has informed former president Donald Trump that it is set to hand over to special counsel Jack Smith 16 records which show Trump and his top advisers had knowledge of the correct declassification process while he was president, according to multiple sources.
      In a May 16 letter obtained by CNN, acting Archivist Debra Steidel Wall writes to Trump, “The 16 records in question all reflect communications involving close presidential advisers, some of them directed to you personally, concerning whether, why, and how you should declassify certain classified records.”
      The 16 presidential records, which were subpoenaed earlier this year, may provide critical evidence establishing the former president’s awareness of the declassification process, a key part of the criminal investigation into Trump’s mishandling of classified documents.

      Reply
    80. 80.

      sab

      @geg6: On bad days I realize I married Homer and I am not as saintly as Marge. My husband laughs and agrees, thus proving he isn’t Homer.

      ETA We have three kids: one Bart and no Lisa.

      Reply
    81. 81.

      Ruckus

      @VOR:

      I’d agree that he’s likely one of the worst clients.

      Most clients haven’t been in court or even spoken to attorneys quite  as much as the world’s smartest man (OK that’s what he and not anyone else thinks) has because they usually at least attempt to keep their mouths shut and stay out of the limelight. He thinks the limelight is for him and him alone. Like everything else he’s wrong about this, because he’s dumber than a small box of very inexpensive rocks, the ones that cost something like $10/metric ton.

      Reply
    82. 82.

      sab

      @WaterGirl: So when we joke about the three-eyed fish downstream of the nuclear power plant you have no idea what we are talking about? It is even on the Simpsons All Character Blanket my grand-daughter got Grandpa.

      Reply
    84. 84.

      WaterGirl

      @sab:

      three-eyed fish downstream of the nuclear power plant you have no idea what we are talking about?

      I had no idea that that came from The Simpsons. But I don’t even blink at that one because we have Clinton Lake, which is by the nuclear power plant in Clinton, so there are jokes like that all the time if you are in the water at Clinton Lake.

      Reply
    85. 85.

      sab

      @WaterGirl: I know you are incredibly busy but if you get some spare time watch the Simpsons. You will love it. Start way back. They don’t age. Bart will be forever in fourth grade.

      You might relate to Lisa.

      Comedy, so episodes only a half hour. This cartoon is how much of the rest of the world sees us. I am okay with that

      ETA I know Matt Groening is from Oregon but not coastal. His show has a midwestern feel- normal town in the middle of now-where important to anyone but themselves.

      Reply
    86. 86.

      sab

      @sab: I believe Matt Groening’s father was a lapsed Mennonite from Canada. Lots of them in Ohio. Lapsed but very wholesome. Simpsons fits that pattern.

      Reply
    88. 88.

      Armadillo

      @WaterGirl:

      I’m not sure if this is the question you were asking about why witnesses and not targets, but as you noted, “target” is a specialized term.  From the US Department of Justice’s Justice Manual (previously called the US Attorney’s Manual):

      It is the policy of the Department of Justice to advise a grand jury witness of his or her rights if such witness is a “target” or “subject” of a grand jury investigation.

      A “target” is a person as to whom the prosecutor or the grand jury has substantial evidence linking him or her to the commission of a crime and who, in the judgment of the prosecutor, is a putative defendant. An officer or employee of an organization which is a target is not automatically considered a target even if such officer’s or employee’s conduct contributed to the commission of the crime by the target organization. The same lack of automatic target status holds true for organizations which employ, or employed, an officer or employee who is a target.

      A “subject” of an investigation is a person whose conduct is within the scope of the grand jury’s investigation.

      Even if the various Trump attorneys are simply witnesses rather than targets, they would likely still be disqualified from acting as attorneys in Trump’s defense, since the general rule is that you cannot act as counsel in a matter for which you are also a witness.

      When negotiating a witness’ testimony before a grand jury, the US attorney running the grand jury will usually tell the witness’ counsel whether the witness is a target or subject, or where the witness falls on that spectrum.

      Hopefully that is relevant and/or helpful.

      Reply

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