Yesterday, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis continued his Putinesque anti-LGBTQ crusade by essentially criminalizing being trans in Florida. The scope of the sinister, intrusive new laws he signed is breathtaking when you look at the details, where the devil resides. We’ll get to that in a minute. But first, I want to raise an alarm about how this is being covered in the media.
I often praise the local Florida newspapers for highlighting DeSantis’s corruption, hypocrisy and ambitious overreach, but I think they’re falling down on the job so far on this issue. In today’s Tampa Bay Times, the criminalization of trans people isn’t even the headline — that honor goes to a St. Pete couple who were busted for possession of stolen tortoises and rare books. (For real!)
Further down the page, you can read about trans people — our neighbors and fellow citizens — being criminalized out of existence under this “view from nowhere” heading and subhead:
DeSantis signs bills on pronouns, gender care, drag shows and more
The governor’s “Let Kids Be Kids” theme draws applause at a Tampa Christian school, but harsh criticism from other quarters.
It should draw harsh criticism from every fucking quarter that isn’t occupied by religious fanatics who are trying to shove everyone into their narrow-minded box. A DeSantis ball-gargler who was on hand for the bill signing signaled the stakes:
Also receiving rousing applause was Randy Fine, a Brevard County Republican legislator, who told the audience: “There is evil in this world and we are fighting it here today. We are going to do it because God does not make mistakes with our children.
A bit over a month ago, another god-bothering Florida Repub was pressured to apologize for referring to trans people as “mutants” and “demons” when they were in the statehouse begging lawmakers not to pass these bills. Fine’s comment shows how quickly the party is normalizing that language.
We know where this ends, which is why those of us who believe in freedom of (and from) religion and the freedom to make personal choices for ourselves and our kids should be uniting against this legislative atrocity. The laws themselves are a fucking hate crime.
Commentary in Rolling Stone by Chris Geidner more properly frames the issue:
Ron DeSantis Just Took Two Big Steps to Make Trans Lives Illegal
Bills signed into law Wednesday will further restrict trans rights in his state, and there’s no telling how far the extremist politician will go
The piece also does a much better job of providing details on the impact of the new laws on people’s lives, which is something local news outlets should be doing. I urge everyone to read the whole thing, but here’s a lengthy excerpt from the piece:
S.B. 254 — takes several steps to prevent Florida’s minors from receiving any gender-affirming medical care anywhere. The law bans such care in the state, but it also gives emergency jurisdiction to courts to stop a child from leaving the state to receive gender-affirming medical care. Trying to get a child gender-affirming medical care is the only specific action, other than abandonment, that the law states prompts such emergency jurisdiction. It would be a third-degree felony to provide gender-affirming medical care within the state to a minor, which carries a potential five-year prison sentence…
S.B. 254 also places limits on adults being able to receive gender-affirming medical care in three ways. First, it would bar state or local governments from funding gender-affirming medical care, though health plans or government-funded care, for people of all ages. It also would force all adults receiving such care to sign “informed consent” forms adopted by Florida’s Board of Medicine and Board of Osteopathic Medicine — boards whose appointees have implemented DeSantis’s anti-trans aims previously — that are almost certain to contain extreme anti-trans rhetoric. Finally, the bill bars anyone other than doctors from prescribing or performing gender-affirming medical care…
H.B. 1521 bans trans people from using the restroom that fits with their gender identity in most government buildings. Defining sex based on a biological, birth-based definition, the law then limits restroom use in government-owned buildings based on that definition of sex. It applies in prisons and detention facilities, schools, and any public building — which appears to include any government-owned airport, convention center, or stadium.
The law forces schools and prisons to create new disciplinary procedures for employees, students, and/or inmates who violate the law — again, for trans people, this means using the restroom that fits their gender identity.
For others, and for non-employees in any of those public buildings, the law creates a new criminal violation. The law generally makes it a first-degree misdemeanor whenever a trans person doesn’t leave a restroom when asked to leave by any employee of the government agency that occupies that building. A first-degree misdemeanor can mean up to a year in prison in Florida. For not leaving a bathroom…
DeSantis is making it very clear that he does not want LGBTQ people or their families in his state — as has his spokesperson, somehow even more directly. As DeSantis still apparently plans to launch a campaign for president, these acts of hate — and their real-world effects on people — must not get lost in the coverage or in our minds.
I believe that ultimately trans acceptance will follow the trajectory of LGB acceptance. I’ve seen hearts and minds change enough in my lifetime to believe in that possibility. One example: support in America for marriage equality was 27% in 1996 and 71% last year.
Things can change, and it doesn’t require everyone being comfortable with every social evolution. But it does require a majority rejecting the notion that assholes like Randy Fine and Ron DeSantis and Christopher Rufo can impose their religious and moral strictures on the rest of us.
The thing we’re demanding when we refuse to allow them to make everyone live inside the narrow-minded box is freedom. I’m glad to see Democrats like Gretchen Whitmer and Joe Biden reclaiming that word.
DeSantis lies a lot and is a shameless hypocrite like every other Repub, but he talks less about “the free state of Florida” now that he’s made so much progress transforming the state into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks. Perhaps in that context, even DeSantis finds the word discordant. When signing the bills yesterday, DeSantis instead claimed that Florida would remain “a citadel of normalcy.”
“Normalcy” as defined by him. Well, I say fuck Ron DeSantis, and fuck his definition of “normalcy.” Outwardly, as a cis straight woman, I suppose I fit what the Florida morality police would consider “normal.” But that’s not the fucking point. All of us have got to stand up and fight for freedom — ours and our neighbors’ — or it doesn’t exist for any of us.
PS: Also, on what planet has Florida ever been a “citadel of normalcy”? More fodder for my “Make Florida Weird Again” campaign!
Baud
They will extend this to the fetus if not stopped.
Raoul Paste
You would think that DeSantis’s slogan of “Let kids be kids” would naturally lead to the idea of “Let people be people”.
But no. And these people claim to stand for freedom. Ridiculous.
Dorothy A. Winsor
De Santis et al must be living in a bubble because they fail to see the outrageousness and unpopularity of this. Candidates in a democracy should not be operating this way.
Skepticat
These people are incredibly fixated on sex. They insisted on “my body, my choice” when it came to masks, but now it’s “everyone’s body, my choice.” And they choose poorly.
brantl
@Baud: In what way? How many fetuses are going to want gender-affirming health care
Did I miss something here, or are you just saying that they’re stupid enough to think they need a law for that?
Baud
Hopefully the Jacksonville mayor election is a portend.
Baud
@brantl:
Pregnant people aren’t going to be allowed to leave the state to have abortions.
brantl
@Baud: Oh, yeah, I’m with you there.
brantl
I think someone is going to have to set up some form of National Trust, where people can buy and sell back a house, out of state. Then they can buy the house, pretend to move, get the abortion, and then sell back the house and go back home (if they still want to go back to these shitholes).
Baud
Where did all the militant atheists who went after Islam in the naughts go? They used to be noisy.
Also, too, libertarians.
No one is perfect, but if you want consistency in your freedoms, become a liberal.
brantl
I think De Septicemia is going to start driving the US military, businesses, and just a lot of people out of Florida. It’s going to start slow, and then I bet it will gather speed like a freight train. I hope he stands on the tracks.
Ol_Froth
I’m sure its just a matter of time before someone reveals DeSantis’ gay porn collection, because its always projection with these clowns.
NotMax
It’s a small-minded world after all.
It’ll be a sub-zero day in Hell before I ever set foot in that woebegone state ever again.
Bupalos
Great post. Things can change and will change. It’s actually the fact that they ARE changing- rapidly- that has the Good And Totally Normal Americans freaking out, and throwing tantrums about how Totally Normal they are and how Totally Normal everyone needs to be. Sorry, my Totally Normal bretheren, America means freedom and equality, or it means nothing at all.
Baud
@Bupalos:
👍
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Baud:
I can see it now:
“There shall be a unit of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement empowered to staff every commercial and general aviation airport, seaport and highway leading in and out of this state for the purpose of inquiring about the pregnancy status of every female seeking to exit the state, and to delay those exits for a reasonable time pending either 1) a pregnancy examination by a duly licensed facility or 2) obtaining medical records by an authorized facility which certify that the female’s womb is barren, a stoney soil in which no male seed may find purchase, and that there exists no treatment outside of one of Holy God’s miracles which may remediate that condition. in the event that the female is determined to be with child, that child is prohibited from exiting this jurisdiction.”
Baud
Will you look at that? Peas in a pod: DeSantis and Xi.
Greg
I wonder what will happen if a reporter starts using “it” as the pronoun for DeSantis? And note that they are just using the pronoun that the reporter believes is correct, regardless of what DeSantis wants to be called. If pronouns are up to the user, and not the one addressed, well, use that power.
President Johnny Gentle (famous crooner)
Except that LGB people are still being targeted right now by red state legislators and governors. The anti-gay hate never went away, and republicans didn’t suddenly become accepting because they know a gay guy at work. They just regrouped and revamped their approach by invoking “our children” and “parent’s rights” in every sentence.
Whatever the overall national acceptance of marriage equality may be, it sure doesn’t mean much in red states where the belief that LGBT people are “grooming” and “perverting” god-fearin’ kids is made into state law.
If we ever do stop republicans’ gleefully genocidal campaign of legislation against trans people, it will only be a reprieve until it comes back in some other form, because they will NEVER become accepting of people that different from them.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
I keep thinking about Creed using the ladies’ in “The Office” (our men’s rooms suck – they stink and tend toward filthy).
What if the bathroom on your floor is out of order and you have an emergency? What if you’re a girl at a big crowded event and your lines are packed but you know you can use the mens’ rooms quickly?
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Greg:
It would be a fun exchange at a presser with any of his odious hangers’ on.
”I’m sorry Ms Pushaw, since the pronoun is apparently up to the user, that’s the one I have chosen for it.”
Betty Cracker
@President Johnny Gentle (famous crooner): I’m a woman with fewer rights than I had a couple of years ago, so I know you’re right — misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, racism, etc., never really go away completely. It’s an endless fight, but we can make progress. I’ve seen it, and it’s real. The catch is we keep it only at the cost of eternal vigilance.
Baud
@President Johnny Gentle (famous crooner):
That’s not really a revamp. That’s been their go-to line for at least a century.
Same with every other group of people. The fight never ends.
The Dark Avenger
Why does God need a drag queen story hour?
Ken
@The Dark Avenger: Hush, that’s the Bishop in full canonicals.
Baud
@The Dark Avenger:
I don’t know, but it’s ironic that in every depiction of Jesus and the Apostles I’ve seen, no one is wearing pants.
Baud
@Skepticat:
Control the sex, control the person.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Dark Avenger:
“As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.” Ecclesiastes 11:5
Stacy
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
🎶Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate🎶
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
How would that be enforced? How would they know why a pregnant person is leaving the state? People go on vacations all the time
brendancalling
Interestingly, I just got an email from the folks who put on the Space Coast marathon and half marathon in Cape Canaveral inviting me to register. I will be calling/emailing to let them know why not.
Eolirin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): They can look at their digital communications, people can snitch, they can start looking at medical records, and they can get broad discretion to detain people they suspect are trying to go get an abortion.
These things will never be applied consistently, but they build a case like they would for any other crime. Which in many cases means detention and forced confession after 10+ hours of interrogation.
Betty Cracker
@brendancalling: Good. I wish everyone who cancels a FL vacation or declines an event would do that. It’s helpful to make the impact of these hateful policies more visible.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
Many of the militant atheists, like the TERFs, have gravitated to the political right. It began around 10 years ago and picked up steam around Gamergate/Trump’s election win, back when “SJW” was the preferred term of derision; since 2019 or so it’s been “woke”
It’s funny, literally nobody these days says social justice warrior or SJW
SFAW
@Baud:
Until this moment, I had always assumed you were pantsless because you work from home, etc.
Thank you for giving me/us insight into the true reason. Or should I call it the “One True Reason”?
Bupalos
@President Johnny Gentle (famous crooner): You don’t know who can and cannot change or on what timeline. You’re right that freedom will never be something that is finished, that we no longer need to take risks for and fight for. Because it isn’t a binary or a final destination. It’s a direction and a ethos.
Baud
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
It would be harder, but it’s always possible.
SFAW
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Not sure how one defines “militant atheists” — what, do they bomb, or demonstrate outside of, any/all houses of worship? — but as a lifelong, devout atheist, I call bullshit.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): In the same vein, how do you enforce bathroom laws? If a woman goes into the ladies’ room, who decides she doesn’t belong there?
Dorothy A. Winsor
Now that would be interesting.
Bupalos
@Betty Cracker: Right. You have to let them know. You have to make it count.
Baud
@SFAW:
I don’t know what they called themselves, but there was a group of prominent atheists who are very vocal and popular during the Bush years. And to be fair, they also pushed back on Christianity, not just Islam.
Jackie
@brantl: To get aborted? See Idaho’s abortion law for minors leaving the state for an abortion.
zhena gogolia
Stomach-turning.
Jager
Betty, how long before your governor orders the Florida National Guard to “Clean Up Key West”?
Jackie
@brantl: I think faster than you think. The just passed anti migration law is already devastating agriculture and construction businesses.
BethanyAnne
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Mostly busybody men see butch women entering bathrooms, and accost them. Current estimates of trans folk hover at 0.3% of the population. Far more butch women exist, and those are the ones that get hassled.
Eolirin
@Dorothy A. Winsor: If our voters don’t turn out, and in numbers, now, there won’t be a democracy for them to have to worry about.
narya
So I see that, not surprisingly, the bill makes no mention of intersex folks; the bill writers’ commitment to a binary, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, is both stupid and evil. I keep hearkening back to the post earlier this week, with Nancy P’s formulation of LOVE: let other versions exist.
The only thing that gives me some hope is that, as was noted in yesterday’s threads, at this point so many people know, have met, are related to folks who do not fit into cisgender, heterosexual frameworks. This knowledge–and seeing their loved ones or coworkers able to be their own joyful selves–does open hearts, and does, eventually, make the mean spirited evil of these bills more evident. But meanwhile, we gotta protect each other and protect our freedoms.
ETA: fixed typos
cmorenc
@Bupalos:
The likes of those supporting the legislation are choosing the ‘none at all” option, because none of the things they want to be free to do or be are made illegal, only things they disapprove of. They are free to be evangelical Christians, and about as far as they will go to anyone who isn’t is that they won’t force you to go to their church. Because they want to be free to leave a congregation whose pastor doesn’t believe wine literally transsubstantiates into Christ’s blood during communion for another one that does.
Eolirin
@Dorothy A. Winsor: You shouldn’t think of enforcement of laws like this as being intended to eliminate the activity happening but as a means to harass and terrorize members of a specific group.
It starts with a target.
Barbara
I’m grinding my teeth. It’s like they can’t believe their good luck that they finally found a group so small, and so poorly understood by so many people that they won’t be punished for making them the object of their hate — so they keep trying to think up new ways to hurt them in order to get another news cycle to loudly celebrate their “success” in standing up for non-woke “normies.”
Geminid
The Washington Post published a story a couple days ago about the Ron DeSantis vs Bob Iger fight:
The story recounts the history of the feud triggered by Iger’s February 24 , 2022 tweet about Florida’s “Don’t say Gay” bill:
A couple highlights:
DeSantis ally: “DeSantis views this as a fight he must win.”
Yale School of Management professor: “Iger never loses.”
I’m feeling lucky today, so here’s a link:
.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/05/15/desantis-disney-iger-power
Oh well, I botched the link. May try again below. But the article’s easy to find.
BethanyAnne
@Barbara: And, unlike with “liberals” or “communists”, queers can’t just stop being queer. They can attack us over and over, even if we repent, most of us still register as “Other”.
SFAW
@Baud:
There have been “militant atheists” around since at least Madalyn Murray O’Hair. [Probably before, but she was the best-known during my yoot.] But I don’t recall a lot of them “gravitat[ing] to the political right.”
Separation of church and state has been — at least during the years that I’ve been politically aware — primarily a left-side issue. And in recent years, the push for theocracy has been coming from the side to which Goku claims the militant atheists have “gravitated.” [And, yes, I can hold two apparently-contradictory thoughts in my head without imploding, but I don’t think I need to, in this case.]
brendancalling
@Betty Cracker: I emailed the organizers, who helpfully provided their phone number. I’m calling on my lunch break.
Eolirin
@SFAW: A lot of them are making common cause with anti-feminist groups. Misogyny has been a problem with that community for a long time. And most of those groups are alt-right. Incels and MRAs. There’s also some overlap with TERFs
It isn’t that surprising that liberalism with it’s focus on tolerance for difference and desire for diversity would become a common enemy for groups that would otherwise be at each other’s throats, when the one thing all those groups have in common is a desire to be able to force conformity to their views.
Ksmiami
@Dorothy A. Winsor: we don’t have to enforce the mandates of a thoroughly corrupt and morally wrong Court. Do this and they will have no power.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@SFAW:
I talking about people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and somewhat prominent Atheist Youtubers/skeptics who became reactionary, anti-SJWers who vocally hate cancel culture/feminism, while claiming to be for “equality”, while spewing RW talking points
Remember the “Dear Muslima” incident with Dawkins from back in 2011?
ETA: And as Eolirin said, many have made common cause with MRAs, incels, and the alt right. I remember watching in real time on blogs that covered this like We Hunted the Mammoth
ETA 2: Sorry for using the term militant atheists
Eolirin
@Ksmiami: The courts not being able to settle matters of law will unravel the whole country. If it comes to that things will get very bad.
Red states will move to reinstate segregation.
SFAW
@Geminid:
I’m putting my money (so to speak) on DeathSantis. He has the Power of The State, plus lapdogs in the Lege, to implement his fascist agenda. And the current Federal court system — which is where, presumably, Iger would seek relief — is far too fascist-friendly to push back substantially of DeathSantis’s laws.* Iger can threaten to move Disney World out of FLA, but the amount of $$$ it would take would be immense. And it seems unlikely that he could (figuratively) buy off enough legislators to get his way.
*Not being a lawyer, and not in the legal profession, I might be completely full of shit about this. But when has that ever stopped me from commenting?
brendancalling
@Betty Cracker:
Email to the Running Zone Foundation:
And that is how you do it. The follow-up call will be fun too. And to clear: I’m sure the Running Zone Foundation people are perfectly nice and lovely, and have nothing to do with DeSantis and his inhumanity. Doesn’t matter. Fuck ’em.
RaflW
I can’t even imagine how hard this is for trans people. As a run of the mill gay couple, we feel a lot of pending doom. It’s so weird, too: My partner is off to a work meeting this morning, and planning to stop at the garden center and look for a couple native shrubs to plant in our yard. Certainly the activities of a couple who want and intend to stay.
But we have open conversations about leaving the US pretty promptly if the 2024 national election goes the wrong way. We are certainly doing things between now and then to help move the needle in the correct direction. We’re not passive people. But we’re also trying to be realists. We’re not staying for the Christianist-led pogroms, if they loom.
And even if we hold the presidency, we can likely expect a hostile and terrible US Senate for at least the ’24-’26 term. Maybe we can win back the House so that it’s not just a total shitshow legislatively, but its fucking exhausting and pretty toxic.
Most evenings these days my BF looks at me around 9pm and says “what’s wrong?” and I just feel like the ship is taking on too much water. @President Johnny Gentle is likely more correct than I want them to be. Any gains won by gay and lesbian people are still far too tenuous. Seeing trans people be led to erasure in 18 or more states, with too little resistance, is terrifying.
I do appreciate that states like MN have declared themselves sanctuary states (and hey, even Kansas City, MO has done so, though it’s more symbolic resistance there as opposed to full legal welcoming for us Minnesotans). All this contributes to my bifurcated sense of being torn to bits.
Eolirin
@SFAW: Disney is arguing first amendment rights violations, aren’t they? I’m pretty sure that’ll make this a federal matter at some point.
Baud
@SFAW: I can’t speak to where they’ve gravitated — that was someone else’s comment. All I can say is that I haven’t heard much from them lately, unlike in the past.
Geminid
@SFAW: Ten years from now, Disney World will be as successful as ever, and DeSantis will be a political has-been. Iger knows this.
SFAW
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I’ve heard of Dawkins, but never paid much attention to him. From what I recall, he seemed a little full of himself. Harris? Don’t know the name.
But I get your point.
Not sure why they’re anti-SJW, unless it’s because SJWs tend to emulate Jesus more than the Talibangelicals who claim to follow his teachings, and thus associated with religion. If that’s the case, then they’re morons as well as assholes.
TerryTime
@SFAW: They’re just anti-woman. That’s all.
Eolirin
@SFAW: It’s the misogyny
Suzanne
@Baud:
I have long thought that liberals are the real libertarians (not Libertarians). We are the ones who genuinely want government out of your personal life.
But, of course, the right wing doesn’t want consistency in freedoms. They want the exact opposite of that: freedom for themselves, constraints for others.
SFAW
@Baud:
So you’re now “erasing” Goku? He (she? I’ve always assumed “he”) comments here a lot.
Yes, I know that’s not what you meant.
Geminid
@Geminid: Another try at a clean link to the Iger story:
fugedaboutit!
SFAW
@TerryTime: @Eolirin:
Thanks. I wasn’t “tuned in” to that, but it makes things a lot clearer.
Kay
This, all by itself, is huge. Every public employee in the state and their families down to local subdivisions. It’s probably half a million employees, plus their families, so more than a million at least.
All public employees should be concerned. If DeSantis can ban coverage of this health care he can ban any care. He hires crackpot anti vaxxers as top level state employees. That’s who will be deciding which health care Florida public employees are permitted to get.
Burnspbesq
@Baud:
Federal courts have a vote on that. The right to travel is deeply entrenched in the 14th Amendment.
RaflW
@Betty Cracker: I very much agree. I’ve mentioned it before, but I wrote to the Montana tourism agency that promotes skiing, and in no uncertain terms told them that I’d traveled to MT previously to visit Whitefish resort, but after MT passed their anti-trans legislation, I feel unwelcome and unsafe and will absolutely not return while that law sits on the books.
Heard nothing back, but these sorts of messages need to be sent by as many of us as possible. I’m really glad we saw Glacier N.P. when we did. Because f*k those f*ing f*ers. I never want to set foot in that Godbothering state again.
SFAW
@Geminid:
Good point. However, given the (apparent) trajectory of politics and liberty in this country, I wouldn’t be so sure about DeathSantis being a has-been. [Primarily due to the outsized power and influence the RWMFs wield in this country, and using them to implement policies contrary to what the majority of people want.] I would love to be wrong about this. I hope I live long enough to see the RWMFs “consigned to the dustbin of history.”
MisterForkbeard
@SFAW: I’d go with ‘asshole atheists’. The really self righteous ones that use their religious position to attack and aggressively demean others.
It’s really just an excuse to say whatever offensive thing they want, which is why they fit in well with the right and why it appeals to a lot of bigoted assholes. And it let’s them tweak libs, because they’re always “just following the science”.
So not most atheists.
rikyrah
The state being allowed to take away someone’s child for bring trans.
No. Just HELL NO.
and, the doctors who use religious grounds not to give care? need to be sued and have their licenses stripped. there are NATIONAL medical licenses, correct? Go after them.
Greg
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
That was my thought. And for any parents that make a fuss at a school board meeting.
MisterForkbeard
@Dorothy A. Winsor: These laws are mostly unenforceable, aren’t they? They exist to:
1. Terrify victims and give DeSantis a boost with the assholes
2. Give religious busybodies and men another tool to control the other. It’ll all rely on after the fact and specious 3rd party rumors.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MisterForkbeard:
I specifically remember fans of Chris Hitchens referring to his takedowns of Christian fundies as “Hitchslaps” back in the day. So yes, misogyny and assholism is embedded in those types of atheists
UncleEbeneezer
@SFAW: I think he’s referring to Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett who were the ones popularly known as the New Atheists™. They along with PZ Myers, Bill Maher, and Stephen Pinker were the popular face of organized atheism a few years ago when it was getting a lot of media attention (though Maher and Pinker were more like guys who were popular for other stuff: comedy and language study, who just dropped in from time to time).
Hitchens died but was already showing pretty extreme Islamophobia and Sexism before he went. Dennett has, as far as I know, mostly stayed out of discussions about social issues. PZ Myers is on the right side and is really the only one that ever showed any interest in listening, evolving and growing. But everyone else: Dawkins, Harris, Maher, Pinker (as well as Jerry Coyne) have all shown extremely shitty views on pretty much anything involving marginalized groups. So of the group that was on magazine covers in the early-aughts, yes, they have predominantly gone at least Nazi-adjacent on social issues. I think that’s a fair statement/impression for anyone to have.
There are of course a bunch of next-tier atheists like Greta Christina, Stephanie Zann, Jay McReight, Rebecca Watson etc., Zinnia Jones etc., who are still cool and actually quite passionate about Social Justice, but they were never the face of organized atheism, sadly, the way that Dawkins and Harris were.
Omnes Omnibus
@MisterForkbeard: Most people of whatever stamp aren’t militants. Goku thus had already limited his statement to a subset of atheists.
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
That isnt how they would enforce it. Every pregnant person would be registered as pregnant, probably at the first prenatal visit – they would put the registration mandate on providers. Then if a child doesn’t result 6 or 7 or 9 months later, they would investigate. They’ll have a date for the expected birth after the first prenatal visit and that’s all they need.
RaflW
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Good. The radical six on the court make a lot of noises about how there isn’t — or certainly should not be — a crisis of legitimacy over their rulings. But they are fundamentally very political people. They understand how power works, and need to be receiving high level messages that if they move too far right, what they will get is not a conservative utopia, but a weak Court that gets defied and tested by a restless public.
Sister Golden Bear
Thank you for highlighting this Betty.
One of the worst aspects, which has barely gotten coverage, is that one of the new laws prohibits nurse practitioners from providing trans healthcare — effectively cutting off 80% percentage trans healthcare for adults because there aren’t enough doctors to go around.
Already seeing numerous reports via Twitter about trans people being dropped by their healthcare providers because of this. This also means anyone receiving hormone treatments will be unable to have their prescriptions renewed. For those who haven’t had bottom surgery, this means their bodies will start reverting to the sex they were assigned at birth — an absolutely horrifying prospect. For those who have, their bodies no longer produces any hormones, which can lead to long-term health problems.
And because the law banned trans healthcare via telemedicine, trans people will be forced to physically go to another state to get healthcare.
Plus, one of the laws enables healthcare providers/insurance companies to refuse treatment/coverage for any healthcare treatment they find “morally objectionable” [wink, wink].
This is genocide.
This is the future Republicans want — and will implement nationally if they get the chance.
The Thin Black Duke
@SFAW: Let’s see what happens when DeSantis starts running for POTUS for real and he has to reach out to voters who aren’t bugfuck crazy. It’s hard to pivot from Mein Kamp to a Hallmark card.
RaflW
@Kay: It’s hard to imagine that these people (or their antecedents, at least) yelled for years that “Democrats want to tell you which doctor you have to see.”
But of course it turned out they were just telegraphing their frustration that it wasn’t their talibangelical junta who was dictating the medical strictures. (FTR Dems never wanted to limit doctor choice, but we didn’t do well enough fighting back on that nonsense.)
JWR
Ms. Cracker, I left another story about this travesty in the overnight thread. It’s a better fit here. Also too, f*ck The Catholic League.
MisterForkbeard
@UncleEbeneezer: I’m glad that PZ Myers is on the side of good. I always liked him.
The rest of these guys have always just been massive assholes
Marmot
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I forgot Chris Hitchens hitched his wagon to that movement. “America’s premier man of letters,” he styled himself. A damn pretentious and muddy writer, from my perspective.
Dawkins wrote a pretty good book about natural selection and married the second Ramona from Dr. Who. Seemed like a good run, but he had to go get more and more haughty and self-important and thin-skinned.
I don’t keep up with him, but as I understand it, he and that whole movement crossed the line into cruelty.
UncleEbeneezer
One of the things that we can do to help fight this bullshit is to start helping others see through the lies. I shared this yesterday in another post but it seems appropriate here. Here is a very good explainer by Transgender author Julia Serano titled Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth Is Neither New nor Experimental. It’s a bit long but very good and should really help anyone debunk the lies and fear-mongering that these assholes continue to promote/spread. Use it to help your friends, family, co-workers etc., better understand the truth. It’s well worth bookmarking.
Marmot
That’s just for the moment. They’ll come after all of us, if we let them. Well, you know that.
I can’t agree more. We’re gonna crush these barbarians (at the ballot box) and force them to live our way (with tolerance and respect and actual freedom).
TheTruffle
Here’s something I keep asking: “How are DeSatan’s laws constitutional?” From book bans to medical care for trans people. How is ANY of this constitutional?
Ksmiami
@Eolirin: if the courts are the only thing holding this country together then maybe it’s too far gone already- I don’t think ppl here get it. Many of us exhausted but politically active etc normies no longer want to prop up red state Neanderthals. Be fucking gone and diaf of your own stupidity…
UncleEbeneezer
@Marmot: Hitchens also had a seething hatred of Hillary as part of his loathsome misogyny. I imagine he would’ve been an open Trump supporter, had he lived to 2016.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
That level of invasiveness would produce a lot of backlash, no?
Kay
@RaflW:
I think the Georgia proposals to offer tax and other benefits to fetuses open the door to state registries of pregnant people. It will be treated as if one had a child and then that child disappeared. That would justify using any of the investigatory tools of police and prosecutors. It’s a missing child case. The parents will have to explain what happened to “the child” – miscarriages would need to include a medical visit because they’ll need documentation that the pregnancy ended unintentionally.
Omnes Omnibus
@TheTruffle: It isn’t. There, however, is a legal convention that laws passed by a legislature and signed by the executive are constitutional until a court ruling says they are not. These laws need to be challenged in court.
Barbara
@TheTruffle: Some of the laws have been invalidated, but news of invalidation rarely carries the same publicity as the original enactment. They want to trumpet their successes. They don’t necessarily even care whether these laws end up being enforced.
UncleEbeneezer
@TheTruffle: They aren’t. I expect many will be struck down. But you never know with this Handmaids Tale SCOTUS. And even if they are struck down there will still be a lot of harm in the meantime.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ksmiami: I am sorry that few here share your fantasies of blood in the streets. It must be very frustrating for you.
RaflW
@JWR: Wow. As someone who is friends with at least one current Sister, and has a passing acquaintance with one of the founders (Sister Missionary P. Delight, or just Mish in day-to-day life), I’m a bit shocked — in the delighted sense — that the LA Dodgers at least briefly extended this honor to what is, frankly, a fairly radical group. (Sad that silly, goofy sarcastic love is radical, but here we are.)
Super sucks that the Catholic League has pulled a Bud Light on them. It does reinforce the urgency of the Sister’s mission statement: promulgate universal joy and expiate stigmatic guilt. The guilt gang seems to have won the moment, but hopefully not the war ahead.
Mike in NC
Nothing ‘normal’ down in Florida. When we visited Key West a couple of years ago, we ended up at a gay bar where a drag queen hosted bingo. Nobody died that day. Maybe they should reconsider the “Conch Republic” stuff that started out as a joke, because DeFascist is out to screw as many people as he can.
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Well, I don’t know. Louisiana is getting ready to ban abortion exceptions for pregnant women who have cancer. They won’t be able to receive cancer treatment – cancer will just progress unchecked for months. Women will die as a direct result of this ban. It was barely covered as news. I doubt 1 in 100 people in Lousiana even know about it. That’s how important women are.
Maxim
@Geminid: Here’s a gift link to the WaPo article.
WaterGirl
How much hubris, combined with being a sociopath, does it take to essentially declare a class of humans illegal?
How does everyone not understand that if they can do it with X issues, they can do it with the rest of the alphabet? And reuse letters, when needed.
rikyrah
@SFAW:
I put my money on The Mouse.
The basis of the Disney lawsuit is that DeathSantis is infringing upon their first amendment speech rights.
In essence, Iger’s folks are going after the heart of Citizens United.
Now, you and I despise Citizens United.
But, to side with Florida, would mean a blow to Citizens United and all the money that it has allowed to go into Republican Pockets.
So, my money’s on The Mouse.
BethanyAnne
@UncleEbeneezer: Julia Serano is a national treasure.
rikyrah
@brendancalling:
clap clap clap
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kay:
Friends and family of these women will be affected. If media won’t cover it, then social media/word of mouth will have to do. Too many people are going to be affected by this for their not be some kind of backlash at some point
Alabama Blue Dot
So, if I’m at a concert or sports game in a government-owned building like a civic center or arena, and I, a cis woman, get frustrated about how few stalls there are in the women’s room, and a bunch of us decide to storm the men’s and use that facility (which I have done!), we’d be breaking this law.
Every anti-trans law that purports to “protect women” is predicated on the idea that everyone with a penis is a predator. Says something about the cis male legislators writing these awful laws.
Kay
@Mike in NC:
I think Betty is on to something with “keep Florida weird” or “make Florida weird again”. I don’t think the attraction of Florida for most visitors is it’s “an incredibly angry place run by fundamentalist religious authoritarians”.
That DeSantis could fuck up “warm, sunny weather and beaches” says a lot. He had “location, location, location” and has somehow managed to devalue that. All he had to do to keep it was nothing. He just had to NOT fuck it up.
RaflW
@Eolirin: I don’t want the sort of chaos being mentioned, but indeed this is the risk I think the Court is dabbling in. Even blow SCOTUS it’s been one of my concerns about some of the wildly incompetent and/or extremely ideological appointees TFG installed throughout the federal bench.
I’ve wondered right here on this blog what happens when some winger judge just starts messing with contracts and tort law because he doesn’t personally like the company that’s being sued? Yes, appellate courts can overturn or remand, etc, but this sort of legal decay isn’t uncommon in illiberal countries around the world.
We’ve mostly avoided the chasms of a corrupt or crazed judiciary. But we’re not nearly so exceptional a nation as we once imagined ourselves. That’s one of the core messages of Trump winning in ’16: We’re not fundamentally much more stable than Italy under ‘bunga-bunga’ Berlusconi since the whole house of cards was mostly held up by traditions and norms. The GOP gave up on that deal and is on a do-or-die quest for unchallenged power.
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I think social media does cover it. I get all my state abortion news from this one (feminist) newsletter. I pay but there’s a free version.
ABL (Imani Gandy) also covers it but her podcast is too long for me- I need a more efficient news rundown because they are passing these laws every day. I can’t do half an hour of listening for each one and I don’t (generally) need the legal issues explained.
BethanyAnne
I moved from Houston to a medium town in Arkansas, population 30k in February. I saw a customer in Walmart last week wearing a “Protect Trans Kids” t-shirt. I stopped and told her I loved the shirt.
Eolirin
@Ksmiami: Courts and a stable rule of law are the only thing holding any democracy together, ffs.
Kay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I use the abortion news newsletter to find out the law or proposed law exists, then I can go to local news to read about it or read the statute itself. I always think advocates should use the text of these statutes more often. For me, it’s more alarming in the dry language of a state law than it is in an over the top ALL CAPS Tweet. One thing I noticed as a woman reading these statutes for years now is how they completely “disappear” the pregnant women- the law is ABOUT her but she’s not in it. It’s chilling. There is nothing like it in any other statutory construction and I think it speaks volumes about the drafters opinion of women. They’re not even important enough to be mentioned- blank, silent, passive vessels. A thing more than a person.
rikyrah
@Kay:
I watch Ms. Jessica V on TikTok. Somehow, she came on my FYP. And, I like and reply to all her videos so that I keep on getting her information.
SFAW
@rikyrah:
I want to believe you’re right and I’m wrong, but one comment re: something you wrote:
Logical consistency has never been the RWMFs’ strong suit. I can envision a “just this once” ruling (similar to Bush v. Gore) giving DeathSantis what he wants. But as I said, happy to be wrong.
Sister Golden Bear
Also something that hasn’t gotten a lot of press coverage, is the new
bathroom billurinary leash law, which criminalizes trans people using any public bathrooms — including ones at airports. Therefore it’s no longer safe for me to even have a layout at Miami International Airport.Especially odious is the law specifies that ID won’t be sufficient proof — meaning that the way to “prove” a trans person is usually a restroom illegally is to inspect their genitals. Although how that’s supposed to work with people like me who’ve had bottom surgery isn’t clear.
Even though it only covers public restrooms, I’m sure haters will use it as an excuse to harass trans people — or anyone who they think might be trans — and given Florida’s permit less carry and Stand Your Ground laws, you can use your imagine what will happen if the target person pushes back.
But ultimately the purpose isn’t to arrest trans people, although I’m sure they will in order to make some harsh examples, it’s to scare trans / non-binary / gender non-conforming people from going out in public.
Baud
@Kay:
I often find a lot of the rhetoric on our side unsatisfying, but I know I am not the target audience, so I try not to be overly critical, but just the right amount of critical.
UncleEbeneezer
@Alabama Blue Dot: Beyonce is on it:
tam1MI
I have a friend who has a handicapped brother. He has one leg and his wheelchair bound. She is his primary caregiver, and she has to help him use the bathroom. This involves either taking him into a stall in the woman’s room, or taking him into a stall in the men’s room. Either way, under this new law, either she or he can be charged with a felony for this. On top of the blatant unconstitutionality of this law in general, it is also in direct violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
rikyrah
@SFAW:
Don’t see it. Just the same way that they had to come against the crackpot Judge about the abortion drug. They couldn’t cleave it from the rest of Big Pharma, so it stays.
Eolirin
@RaflW: We have to win. This is existential now. But the avenues to do that are not yet shut; blowing up rule of law before democracy is already dead doesn’t save us.
People need to vote.
rikyrah
@Eolirin:
Absolutely
JWR
@rikyrah:
I’m with you on this one. Here’s hoping DeSantis proves to be another one hit wonder, that one hit being hatred of the other.
Geminid
@Maxim: This digital dinosaur says, “Thanks.”
Sister Golden Bear
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
In Florida, the law specifies that ID isn’t sufficient to “prove” someone’s gender, so the way to do so is effectively a genital inspection.
BTW, it’s not only trans women who get harassed for using the “wrong” bathroom, it’s also cis women who don’t conform to specific notions of what a woman “should” look like.
FelonyGovt
@BethanyAnne: Yes, I fear for my butch gay daughter, especially if she were to have to leave CA for a business conference or the like. I’m secretly glad she has big boobs so it’s clear she’s a woman, when she walks into a bathroom.
TheTruffle
@JWR: In the meantime, I’ve been following Tik Tok and people are fleeing Florida. DeSantis is destroying Florida’s brand and economy.
In fact, a lot of these red states are going to drive people out, and they will probably chuckle as those people move to blue and purple states. But in the meantime, the population loss won’t be offset by new people moving in because of that sweet, sweet MAGA policy.
And then 2030 and the census roll around…
Can you say “less population,” “fewer districts,” and “fewer electoral votes”?
Florida’s already going to get clobbered economically. It will become a pariah state.
@Bupalos:
It pains me to say this, but some states are going to be in for a world of hurt in the meantime, and the voters there will have brought it on themselves.
Eolirin
@TheTruffle: They’ll also get a lock on local power and their Senate seats that way though. Yes, we’ll have an easier time winning the White House and the House of Representatives, but we could lose the Senate forever. We need population inflows to continue in places like North Carolina, Arizona, Georgia, and Wisconsin.
Sister Golden Bear
@BethanyAnne:
She is indeed. Definitely recommend following her/reading her work.
Also too, the Nazis targeted LGBTQ people first, before moving onto other groups. The parallels of Florida today to 1933 Berlin are chilling.
rikyrah
@Sister Golden Bear:
And, this needs to be pointed out as much as possible.
We trajectory of what they want to do.
THERE IS NO BOTH SIDES.
Eolirin
@Sister Golden Bear: LGBTQ and the disabled. It’s something we need to watch out for because no one is going to signal boost discrimination against us. We are rendered completely invisible.
Sister Golden Bear
@rikyrah: Agreed.
FYI, folks probably remember that famous photo from one of the first Nazi book burnings…
The books were from the library of the Institute of Sexology in Berlin, which pioneered LGBTQ+ research and advocacy, as well as provided some of the first trans healthcare. The Nazis burned the library — destroying irreplaceable research and historical accounts — and killed a trans woman who worked there for good measure.
JWR
@TheTruffle:
Talking about getting clobbered economically, just imagine Ron’s Florida becoming so stifling that even The Mouse decides to pick up and run, which I’m sure won’t happen anytime soon, and maybe not before enough of the state’s residents say “enough!”, but that seems to be the way things are going down there. I mean, how does a state’s government decide that it would rather be straight up Fascist and still claim that it belongs in a democracy? Surprise, Ron! It can’t!
RobArt
@Marmot: I think that this attitude is what it takes:
A person I follow on Mastodon shared the following and I agree that the term perverted is properly employed here to describe the Republican party’s obsession with sex:
Mastodon post: https://front-end.social/@melanie/110387318329265990
I replied that I think labeling them as perverts is exactly right and doesn’t happen enough. The word’s meaning has been diminished due to its use as a thoughtless insult (so very often against us LGBTQ+ folk). But truly they are perverts, they are perverted. Seeing sexual content where it is not, imposing a sexual context in unwanted situations—these are perverted acts. Calling them out for it is the proper response I feel. So much of politics (especially as portrayed in national media) looks at the skillful manipulation of words, optics, people. The Dems, liberals, the left, we aren’t immune. I feel best, and I believe our outlook is best, when we are truthful and forthright. Unambiguous and accurate language helps. The current GOP are perverts perverting in every way that they can. Laws, language, logic, science, economic data, and yes, sadly, human sexuality. Making every situation sexual —going as far as bathroom confrontations and potential bodily inspections!— is perverse. I believe common sense, decency, and optimism can succeed.
🏳️🌈
Sister Golden Bear
A pride event in Tampa have been cancelled over fears about the new anti-drag law.
The law is working exactly as intended, to drive LGBTQ+ people out of public existence.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Sister Golden Bear:
They shouldn’t have canceled. They did the state’s work for them. Make them enforce it. Raise a damn stink
Baud
@Sister Golden Bear:
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Little surprised they didn’t get the ACLU or some other civil liberties group to challenge the law, but maybe the timing didn’t work.
Omnes Omnibus
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I understand the point you are making, but you can’t tell people what risks they should take and how much trouble they should bring on themselves. It is a decision that they have to make for themselves. Also, Pride events tend to be rather festive these days and maybe they aren’t feeling all that festive at the moment.
Soprano2
This just breaks my heart. It makes me think of the words of one of the pieces we’re singing in New York, “Into the Light” by Jake Runestead, who’s become a composer whose works I look forward to performing. Here they are:
I. THE UNIVERSE OF LIGHT
Come out into the universe of light.
Everything in the universe is yours,
stretch out your arms and embrace it with love.
(Swami Vivekananda)
You are a product of your thoughts. What you think, you become.
(Gandhi)
II. THE LIGHTLESS DARK
The only lightless dark is the night of ignorance.
We differ from one another, not in our senses,
but in the use we make of them.
(Helen Keller)
III. THE WARM FOGS OF FEAR
The ice under us is very thin, and is made weak by the warm fogs of fear.
(Frederick Douglass)
We are driven by love or by fear.
I fear you, for I do not know you.
(After Martin Luther King Jr.)
There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear.
(John the Evangelist)
IV. FLOWER INTO KINDNESS
The soul is made of love and must ever return to love.
There is nothing so wise,
nor so beautiful,
nor so strong as love.
(Mechthild von Magdeburg)
Above all, love.
(Peter the Apostle)
I shed my words on the earth
as the tree sheds its leaves.
Let my thoughts unspoken
flower into kindness.
(Rabindranath Tagore, adapt. Runestad)
V. INTO THE LIGHT
We are not yet what we shall be,
but we are growing toward it.
(Martin Luther)
Come out into the universe of light.
Everything in the universe is yours,
stretch out your arms and embrace it with love.
(Swami Vivekananda)
Cameron
Saw just now that DeSantis will be making his formal announcement about his presidential run next week.
Soprano2
@BethanyAnne: So how is that going to be enforced? Will the woman be forced to strip to prove she’s got female parts? Their error is that they think they can tell who’s trans and who’s not.
Sister Golden Bear
@Soprano2: Since the law specifies that legal ID isn’t sufficient to identify one’s sex, effectively yes, genital inspections will be required of anyone accused of using the “wrong” restroom.
Though it doesn’t account for trans people like me, who’ve had bottom surgery (and has legal ID, including my birth certificate, listing me as a female).
But suspect it’ll be enforced with sentence first, trial later. And as mentioned earlier, it’s more about terrorizing trans people into avoiding restrooms than actually being enforced. Although I suspect there will be some very public show trials.
Paul in KY
@Ol_Froth: Probably a snuff film collection, with him.
JWR
@Sister Golden Bear:
From the Trans woman and entertainer at the end of the accompanying video:
WTF is so difficult to understand about that? Drag show performers, by and large decent people all, aren’t going to do an X-Rated show in front of kids, end of story. (And isn’t admittance to ANY such adult performance already age-restricted?) Look, most children already KNOW themselves at an early age, and try as
HitlerDeSantis might, no amount of coercive government power is going to change that.scav
DeSantis is using all the powers of law, legislation and state to use FL as a mere backdrop to his political commercials. The entire state’s law and economy laid waste — certainly endangered — for a few sound bites, news clips and headlines he thinks might prove handy. Plus, the state budget to pay for his flying around time. Health, well-being, future of the extras he supposedly represents, not a seconds thought. Such behavior is increasingly a trend as the nation sprints toward 4-year campaigning.
terraformer
they create chaos to keep their supporters in a constant, frothing rage
and since they’re a minority in an ever-changing and more accepting world, they’re counting on their supporters using violence to keep them in power
Paul in KY
@BethanyAnne: Speaking as an older man who has to go to bathroom more frequently than he likes, I don’t want any females in there taking a spot that I really really need. Nothing personal on that.
Sister Golden Bear
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The issue is that the state was threatening to revoke the business licenses of any company involved. I’m sure the Pride organizers consulted with them before cancelling. Also FWIW, Pride organizations are non-profits without a lot of budget, so even if they found a lawyer to challenge the law pro bono, I’m sure DeSantis would figure out revoke their non-profit status and/or impose a financially-crippling fine.
And yes, that’s exactly the intent of the law, to make it too legally risky for organizations, their allies, and business to continue events, forcing them to cancel.
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus:
The mood I’m seeing is “the first Pride was a riot,” and “I’m not gay as in happy, I’m queer as in fuck you.”
Paul in KY
@brendancalling: Sounds good. Maybe shorten it just a bit, though.
Baud
Reuters says DeSantis will announce next week.
Soprano2
@TheTruffle: I don’t know about that, I can see a big influx of crazy conservatives from places like New York and California and Illinois. But I take your point.
Sister Golden Bear
@JWR:
As someone who’s performed both drag and burlesque, adults-only performances are age restricted, if for no other reason that often they’re at bars and clubs where IDs are checked to ensure everyone is 21+ so that the venue doesn’t lose it’s liquor license.
If it’s an all-ages show, or a drag queen story hour, etc. performers will only do family friendly acts. If fact, I once MC’d a burlesque show at a state-wide AA conference, where there was a big crisis in the green room when we were informed there children under 18 attending the conference. While we couldn’t check IDs, we did open the show with an announcement that anyone under 18 needed to leave.
The “examples” of drag queens do adult performances in front of children are all Photoshopped.
louc
I also wonder what would happen if a bearded trans man follows the letter of the law and uses the women’s room. Because I’ve met a couple of trans men and you would never know if they didn’t identify as trans.
I also can see some effeminate looking men getting beat up because a drunk MAGA type think they’re trans and shouldn’t use the men’s room.
Betty Cracker
@brendancalling: Excellent letter. Thank you!
Paul in KY
@Kay: What if the pregnant person changes doctors? Doctors sure aren’t going to like this burocracy.
Paul in KY
@Marmot: He lost me when he started having an affair with that weirdo teacher in Southpark…
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Sister Golden Bear:
How are people like DeSantis to be beaten?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I understand the point you’re making. It’s just frustrating because it’s giving asshole conservatives a win, just like with the Bud Light thing.
It always seemed to me that conservatives were incredibly impotent when it came to stuff like that. Idiots would “boycott” a product by destroying it on camera after they’d bought it, everyone would point and laugh at them, then life would go on
Sigh. I definitely don’t want vulnerable people to get hurt, so I get it, it’s their decision
dnfree
@Paul in KY: When I’ve been involved in a situation where there’s a long line for women and no line for men, a woman will use the men’s restroom on an availability basis. If there’s a men’s stall free and any men in the vicinity are agreeable, a woman will leave the line of women and use the stall. If any men who want to use the restroom show up, the stall will be quickly vacated. I’ve never seen a situation where women have taken over the men’s room and won’t yield.
JaneE
What is the recourse for someone who is falsely accused of being trans? If a government employee tells you to get out of the restroom and you are in the “correct” restroom for your sex, what do you do? Sue for defamation?
What is the definition of ‘issued at birth’? My husband has something the hospital gave him when they sent him home. It may just be his name and date. The earliest copy I have was when they needed it to register me for school, years after my birth. And the current version you get when you request a copy is not the same as my old one, somehow it has acquired more data. They used to issue new birth certificates to adoptees in some states, do those count? What about birth certificates that had errors on them that were corrected?
How does innocent until proven guilty work with this law?
leeleeFL
@Sister Golden Bear: I have a Jewish Gay Friend who is really getting nervous! He has options, but his life has been here for maybe 30 years! His posts make my heart hurt!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Baud:
@Cameron:
I’m somewhat surprised. He’s had a humiliating start that shows he’s not ready for primetime, if he ever will be. He’s not confronted Trump to date the way he needs to win the nomination. I suppose he’ll try a “reset”, but I’m skeptical. He should’ve just waited for 2028
Kay
@Paul in KY:
It won’t matter. They only need the initial report of the pregnancy. That comes with a date when it should conclude. The assumption will be it ended in a birth and births are recorded already. If it doesn’t end in a birth the woman wil have to explain why it didn’t. Now if a woman becomes pregnant and then MOVES to another state that would be a defense, but if she’s moving to another state she’s not subject to the “cannot travel” order anyway. But you would really have to move -establish residency. Residency is not as cut and dried as people think it is. It’s a test, multi factor.
JWR
@Sister Golden Bear: <double-thumbs-up.gif> I’ll have to ask someone how to insert the actual graphic. ;)
Elizabelle
More Florida uberman news: breaking from the LA Times:
[Of course, DeSantis is term limited, and maybe the next governor gets an easy 2,000 jobs upon taking office and being less ridiculous …]
Sister Golden Bear
@JWR: Thanks.
Unfortunately only front-pagers can add images to posts. But we can add emojis.
PaulB
Does anyone have a handy list of contact info for people and organizations to contact to let them know that you’ve removed Florida from your list as a tourist destination? State Tourism Agency (I couldn’t find one)? Chamber of Commerce? Local agencies?
I actually was planning a Florida vacation before all of this nonsense started, but will definitely not be moving forward with those plans now. I’d like to at least let a few organizations know that my money will be spent elsewhere, but don’t really know where to start.
Sister Golden Bear
@Elizabelle: A number of Disney employees are LBGTQ+ people, especially in the creative departments mentioned, and I suspect that, among other reasons, Disney is worried that some employees will quit rather than relocate to Florida because the new laws make it uninhabitable for them there.
Likewise, many of the potential employees Disney could hire locally are likely to leave the state. As creative professionals they’ve got both more money to relocate and more opportunities elsewhere.
Jesse
Interesting to see that in 1996, marriage equality was at crazification factor levels.
RaflW
@JWR: Disney’s CEO made a fairly direct threat recently, not to leave, but to stop making plans for any of the planned billions of dollars in investments in Florida. I believe he also made noises about relocating some employees (obviously the parks need to be staffed, but any sort of office, call center or other moveable jobs could leave FL high and dry).
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Sister Golden Bear:
Hey, I hope I didn’t across like a dick in my response to you. I do understand what you’re saying. It’s a horrible situation all around
JWR
@Sister Golden Bear: Emoji’s are what I was referring to. Baud uses them extensively. Hey, now I know who to ask! ;)
Hob
@SFAW: Come on. It’s not that hard to understand that “militant atheists” refers to a subset of people who have been out there making a lot of public noise and trying to define atheism as an urgent political cause, like Hitchens or Dawkins, regardless of whether you’re familiar with their work specifically – not to people like yourself or Goku who happen to be atheists. “Militant” has never only meant literally taking up arms, but it clearly implies being confrontational and aggressive in the public sphere. And if that’s not you, then this isn’t about you.
bookworm1398
@125. Not to mention parents with opposit gender children too young to go to the bathroom on their own.
I doubt there will be a huge exodus of people. I’ve heard of some leaving but it takes a lot to get people to move.
Betty Cracker
@PaulB: This link will take you to the contact page for Visit Florida, which is a nonprofit that functions as the state’s official tourism marketing entity.
RaflW
@bookworm1398: I don’t think there will be a huge number who move out. But among creatives and higher earners who have wider flexibility to relocate, or to refuse job offers, there will probably be some brain drain and difficulty for top-tier employers to attract or retain talent.
Not just because of trans injustice, but also over horrible abortion restrictions and a general culture of angry repression.
I’ve never given a crap about “A-list gay” things like the White Party in South Beach, but dang wouldn’t it be great for that event to pull up stakes? Yes, the fundies would crow “hurrah”, but it’d be a big slap for businesses that rely on the influx of free-spending revelers. Might be time for the fancy gay set to ‘rediscover’ Rehoboth Beach ;).
Elizabelle
Even better. The FTF NY Times breaking news. $1 billion. Their headline:
Disney pulls plug on $1 billion development in Florida.
I am also wondering on the economic after effects of the North Carolina whackjob legislature’s outlawing abortion. That’s gonna play well in the research triangle area. Good luck recruiting employees and students.
Virginia says “come on down!”
Elizabelle
@Sister Golden Bear: Absolutely.
luc
Hitchens and Dawkins were brilliantly smart and knowledgeable – I hope the latter still is. This is more than can be said about most participants of the current public discourse.
They both frequently attacked Orwellian language abuses – which unfortunately are very much en vogue with the SJWs.
I am surprised by the need to disqualify them in general without any details or arguments. This almost sounds cultish.
TerryTime
@luc: Oh, please. Dawkins is a TERF. There’s your detail. He’s an active member of the gender critical BS. Today. Talk about your cults.
Hob
@luc: People who have followed the public statements and behavior of Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, or any other well-known figure for many years are entitled to express opinions about them without having to provide “details or arguments”. If you really don’t know why people are mad about them, you haven’t been paying attention; maybe someone here will choose to spell it out for you, but that’s not their job, and you don’t get to call them “cultish” for not having done so.
Hob
In any case no one “disqualified [them] in general” without explanation; the specific statement was that Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris had gotten cozy with the right wing over the years, which is incredibly obvious and doesn’t require dismissing anything insightful they may have said in the more distant past. In Dawkins’s case it’s been specifically in the areas of anti-Muslim rhetoric, “gender critical” nonsense as TerryTime mentioned, and mocking efforts against sexual harassment; Hitchens became a full-on GW Bush fan, and Harris is a multifaceted bigot. These are not obscure things.
PaulB
Ah, no wonder I couldn’t find a state government agency. Thanks for the tip.
Hob
@TerryTime: I don’t disagree with you at all, but I think Dawkins is an example of why TERF is kind of awkward terminology for the current realm of transphobic assholes. He’s clearly not a trans-exclusive radical feminist, because he’s not a radical feminist at all – he hates and mocks radical feminists, and really has no feminist views at all even though he claims to respect some of them. Other anti-trans cultural figures like Rowling and Linehan profess a very generic kind of feminism that would be uncontroversial anywhere but the hard right, and just tack on some transphobia and claim that it’s due to concern for women, but they weren’t in any way radical before that. The term came about because there were genuinely radical people who were also anti-trans assholes and it was important for other leftists to disavow them, but I feel like that’s a bit inside-baseball now and might be muddying the waters.
The Lodger
@Sister Golden Bear: Aren’t single-seat non-gender-labeled restrooms available at airports? (Not being snarky here, but they are abundant in the NW and handy in emergencies.)
Bill Arnold
S.B. 254 is appalling. In their belief system, [Satan] teaches: “Thou shalt hate thy neighbour as thyself”
VOR
I keep wondering about the fate of intersex people. These are people who were born somewhere between male and female, sometimes with characteristics of both sexes. Historically the term “Hermaphrodite” was used but that’s out of favor as Intersex covers many different conditions. So which bathroom will they be forced to use? If we can’t say gay, will people be arrested for talking about the biological fact of their existence?
Paul in KY
@dnfree: Good point on your experiences. I’m talking about one who is already in there. I’m certainly not going to yank her out.
Paul in KY
@Kay: Mr. Orwell was on to something….
luc
@Hob: What is the outrage? This? https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/apr/20/richard-dawkins-loses-humanist-of-the-year-trans-comments