I haven’t watched Chris Hayes since 2 weeks after he moved from his awesome weekend show to prime time.
But wow. Credit where credit is due! Thank you, Chris Hayes.
Hayes sets DeSantis on fire. 7:42 minutes. Totally worth the watch!
h/t Jackie
Totally open thread.
WaterGirl
Is this a different Chris Hayes than we normally see?
Patricia Kayden
Florida okayed the showing of a pro-Confederacy video in a public school despite parents’ objections. Yet, Black history can’t be taught if White kids feel uncomfortable and White parents complain.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-confederacy-manatee-teacher-files-counter-complaint-against-school-district?utm_campaign=owned_social&utm_source=twitter_owned_tdb&utm_medium=socialflow&via=twitter_page
Princess
I think it is very important and useful that Hayes is framing this is an attack on our personal liberties, and we should follow his lead. It will be an effective argument.
Jay
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: Nah, he’s often very vehement about conservative bullshit. He might be showing a bit more disgust here than is typical, but it’s not out of left field for him.
trollhattan
Jesus, it rolls to his piece on Cotham in North Carolina. What a slimy critter! “Ah jest kain’t believe what those Daymocratic Party done become! Roe versus Wade? More like roe versus delicious toast points, am ah raght?”
different-church-lady
Republican rules are totally consistent: you put the boot on any face you can put it on.
If you can put the boot on the face of a teacher or a school administrator on the name of protecting parents, you put the boot on that face.
If you can put the boot on the face of a parent, you put the boot on that face.
The important thing is that the boot is always on a face.
eclare
Just a note, I couldn’t get the video above to play but I got it by googling “Chris Hayes and Ron DeSantis.” Excellent piece.
I mentioned a while back that Dwayne Wade, who has a transgender daughter, said in an interview that he and his family have moved out of FL. FL does not have an income tax, but it is losing out on what I bet were some hefty sales and property tax receipts.
Betty Cracker
@Princess: I agree 100%. I like the way Hayes put it in the clip: “You may not like it. But it’s none of your goddamn business.”
That’s really it in a nutshell. Don’t like “The Bluest Eye”? Don’t read it. Don’t like drag shows? Don’t attend one. Don’t like abortion? Don’t have one. Don’t believe minors should get gender-affirming care? Don’t seek gender-affirming care for your child. But don’t dictate what I can do and how I can raise my own kids. Mind your own goddamn business and I’ll mind mine.
Jackie
@WaterGirl: Thanks for front-paging this!
I like his show. Sometimes it’s hit or miss – but what news program isn’t? He and Lawrence O’Donnell are my “must watch” evening shows.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@different-church-lady: Jack London, The Iron Heel:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: i get annoyed at grown ass reporters getting grundyish about saying swears, especially in the trump era, but said grundyism makes Hayes use of the PG 13 “god damn” effective here , I think
Betty
Having read the Politico profile of Casey DeSantis this morning, I have to wonder how many of these awful policies start with her, the so- called power behind the throne.
patrick II
I love an angry Chris Hayes. Most nights he is a nice, quiet, and very intelligent person. Every once in a while he gets angry, and when he does his smarts come into play so he is not rambling wreck angry, but rational, lucid angry. It works for me.
Kay
I got distracted by DSantis’ insane open mouthed fake laugh
He just can’t be President with that. It’s disqualifying.
Betty Cracker
There’s a thoughtful column by Lydia Polgreen in the NYT about so-called “bathroom bills.” Polgreen is a cisgender lesbian who is occasionally mistaken for a man, and she shares an incident that happened at a fancy hotel in France, where she was harassed and humiliated by some fool who didn’t realize she belonged in the women’s restroom. Gift link here and an excerpt below:
I think she’s exactly right about how this bullshit is designed to expand so that fanatical busybodies feel empowered to harass and punish anyone who doesn’t conform to rigid gender norms.
bjacques
@Patricia Kayden: someone should slip “Confederate States Of America” into that curriculum
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_confederate%2520sta
trollhattan
@Patricia Kayden: Has DeSantis introduced a Florida “Birth of a Nation” Day, yet?
“Everybody is required to watch then discuss, this groundbreaking American film on this date each year.”
JPL
The Washington Post has been doing a series on the consequences of tightened abortion restriction. Today is about giving birth to a child that you know will die, because his lungs didn’t develop. I hate to be graphic but the infant gasped for air for ninety minutes. It was torture.
There wasn’t a way to gift the article but I’ll enclose a link anyways. Post
Betty Cracker
@Patricia Kayden: WTF?
eclare
@Betty Cracker:
Great column, thanks for the link!
eclare
@JPL:
I read that. So heartbreaking. As hard as it must be, I’m glad the mother is speaking out about how cruel it is.
Kay
@JPL:
The level of control the authoritarian Right wants is just incredible. How dare they barge into these peoples lives at a time like that? Just compelling people to go through this, inserting yourself that far into someone’s life, ugh. I cannot imagine backing this power grab.
Jackie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I recall several occasions when Hayes mentioned his young kids often watch his show; pretty sure that’s why he apologized 😊
UncleEbeneezer
I think we need a better framing for this. Parents not seeking gender-affirming care actually does immense damage to the children who need it:
And that’s before we get into the fact that going through puberty permanently changes Transgender bodies in ways that are irreversible and devastating to their mental health/happiness. I’m not sure how we can apply Hayes’ this-doesn’t-harm-you logic (which is, in general, a good one, imo) to come up with an effective slogan, but I do think we need to actively push back against the idea that parents refusing to be supportive of their Transgender children, is neutral/harmless. Because pretty much every Trans/NB person I have ever listened to says the exact opposite and tell horror stories about the prospect of being forced to go through puberty against their will. I think the bolded part of the quote above is a good starting point for messaging. Parents using their views/ideology on Transgender Rights to refuse to do what’s best for their child is really not much different than using their extreme, anti-vax beliefs to refuse to get them vaccinated for Polio, Measles, Covid etc.
Ksmiami
The backlash needs to fierce and unyielding – impoverishment, banishment, the GOP is an UnAmerican disgrace.
Jackie
@eclare: Sickening.
I can hear the excuse now; “This is god’s will.”😡
Citizen Alan
@Betty Cracker: To me, it all ties together. Transphobia. Homophobia. Opposition to abortion and to women’s rights in general. It’s all about white fundamentalist christians making sure everyone has to conform to gender roles as outlined in the old testament. Gender roles which, by an odd coincidence, put white fundamentalist christian men and the women who slavishly obey them at the top, with everyone else groveling at their feet.
mrmoshpotato
As in “burned at the stake?”
Princess
@Betty Cracker: 100%. We’re all the target of anti-trans laws.
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: It’s not neutral and harmless, but it is the parents’ choice. That’s the point. I don’t think the vaccination analogy works because we compel parents to vaccinate kids to protect the entire herd, not just those particular kids. I think a child who went through a traumatic event should get therapy, but I don’t want the government mandating that. I think kids should have dental checkups every year, but I don’t want the government mandating that, etc.
Zzyzx
@UncleEbeneezer:
How about:
Don’t believe minors should get gender-affirming care? Don’t seek gender-affirming care for your child… but don’t be surprised when they have no interest in talking to you when they become adults.
brantl
Rotating Tags:
MY body, MY FUCKING CHOICE.
My Family, My Family’s choice.
Ron DeSantis? Ron DeFascist!
brantl
@Betty Cracker: Parents not getting their kids dental checkups, as long as they aren’t indigent, is probably legally child neglect or at least a partial case.
mrmoshpotato
@Kay: Agreed, but he’s disgusting enough to still have a chance in the primary. I mean, look at the walking shitstain they nominated twice.
JPL
How soon will it be before FL passes mandatory pray away the gay classes?
brantl
@mrmoshpotato: walking baby-shit-stain they nominated twice.
Burnspbesq
@eclare:
Some Florida Dems had been trying to persuade Wade to run for the Senate. That now appears to be off the table. We may see them turn to Grant Hill, who has also been mentioned.
mrmoshpotato
@bjacques: Haven’t seen that in years. I remember it being very well done – especially the montage of racist (still in production at the time) products.
Jackie
Brittney Griner is BACK! She’s playing basketball tonight for the first time since her capture.
I hope she has a great game!
Betty Cracker
@Zzyzx: That’s a good way to frame it — it upholds the parents’ rights framing and indicates that it’s not a neutral/harmless choice.
@brantl: Agree it could constitute abuse if parents never took their kids to the dentist or failed to address a dental problem, but skipping a routine checkup one year? That probably does not (and should not, IMO) constitute abuse.
eclare
@Burnspbesq:
Interesting, I had not heard that about Dwayne or Grant.
Roger Moore
@Betty Cracker:
One point I would make is that there are limits on parental control. When a parent’s decisions go too far, we consider them to be abuse or neglect, and that’s actually grounds for taking kids away from their parents. Obviously this is the basis the Republicans are using for taking kids away from parents who want to give them gender affirming care. I’m not sure we want to go too far in the other direction and take kids away from parents who refuse to allow them gender affirming care, but there’s a much stronger case for it than the other way around.
eclare
@Jackie:
Awesome!
Geminid
@mrmoshpotato: Well, some asshole’s gotta win that primary, and it might be DeSantis. If he beats Trump though, Trump will sandbag him in the general election. A really strong candidate might be able to win despite that, but DeSantis doesn’t have the chops.
Alison Rose
@Roger Moore: I’d love to see the Venn diagram between Repubs who think the government can tell you not to obtain gender-affirming care for your kid and that the government can’t tell you not to hit your kid. There’s a whole lot of “I got smacked around as a kid and I turned out fine” energy from this crowd.
JPL
@Jackie: That’s great!
UncleEbeneezer
@Betty Cracker: Totally agree. Sorry, I meant to add the caveat that obviously gender dysphoria is not contagious, which is where vaccine analogy breaks down. I think a better analogy than dental check-ups would be refusing to take a child to a dentist after they’ve told their parent (for years) that their teeth are causing them excruciating pain. Or kids telling parents that they think they have a broken bone, cracked rib etc. but the parent refuses to take them for medical treatment, risking all sorts of bad and possibly irreversible harms.
And I’m not saying we should push govt mandates. But I do think we need to push the idea that denying children gender-affirming care has real and deadly consequences and that doing so is shitty/cruel parenting that is very similar in result to forcing queer kids into conversion therapy.
The Moar You Know
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: in the early days of my career I swore constantly. People tune it out; I stopped. I really get people’s attention now on the rare occasions when I do.
Kent
@Zzyzx: If you want to message to the right, make it about Freedom.
As Americans we honor basic principles of freedom in the US. That has always been the American way.
The freedom to raise your children as you see fit
The freedom to to make your own medical decisions (or make them for your children).
The freedom to be left alone by your government.
When it comes to issues of safety versus freedom we tend to default towards freedom. Hundreds of children die in farm accidents every year (more actually than get transgender surgery) but we don’t prohibit children from working on family farms. We defer to the parents.
America has always had a very high burden of proof required when the government intervenes in basic freedoms. We sometimes to it for public health and safety (vaccines, speed limits, etc.) but otherwise the American way is to leave people alone to be free.
When it comes to the issue of transgender medicine for youth or adults, the government hasn’t come REMOTELY CLOSE to making the case that public health and safety outweigh the rights of parents to make medical decisions for their children, or for adults and youth to make their own medical decisions. Not even close. The true American way suggests that the government should stay completely out of this subject and let people be free to make their own decisions for themselves. That is what Conservatism used to represent.
Jackie
@eclare: I just checked, and yes, it’s going to be televised on ESPN @ 11 pm ET.
It’s headlined as “Brittney Griner returns to action for the Mercury as they visit the Sparks for this season opener.”
I’ll be recording it as I won’t stay awake for the second half lol
Betty
@Jackie: He has also mentioned going to Cathoic school where taking God’s name in vain is considered pretty serious.
Ned F
@Patricia Kayden:
Confederate History Month? Is this a thing or just some made up crap in the panhandle.
The Moar You Know
@Kay: He looks like an insane person making fun of someone. Which is probably more true than anything else. It is frankly repulsive and not a little bit scary.
Hitler at least was smart enough to try out all his public mannerisms in private first. Which he did copiously, employing a full-time, extremely highly paid photographer to film them so he could figure out what worked and what didn’t.
DeSantis is trying out his schtick, but in public. Bad idea. He doesn’t want to spend the money on a coach and he’s trying to go too far, too fast. If he took his time and worked on it, he could have been a frontrunner in 2028. But he’s just going to end up being Trump’s punching bag.
Kay
@Kent:
Glad to see you here.
Raoul Paste
Late to the thread, but I was taken aback by Hayes’ “none of your goddamn business“. Spot on, but I didn’t see it coming
ETA. I see that Betty has said it better.
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: As a parent, I believe a refusal to get help for a kid with gender dysphoria is shitty parenting, but public policy related to parental choices is so fraught.
TerryTime
@Raoul Paste: That needs to be the message.
“Mind your own business”
“Focus on your OWN family”
Percysowner
@Jackie:
I agree. I like both Hayes and Larry O’D.
terraformer
this is great, but I’m remain mystified that such clear, concise descriptions of what Republicans are doing are so rare. I mean, nothing he said here is biased or hyperbolic. Nothing isn’t true. But collectively, big press and media just won’t do this. Maybe that’s because more of them than not don’t seem to think their job is to be pro-democratic.
The Moar You Know
@Roger Moore: sure fire election loser. Do not forget how the GOP got the VA governor’s seat. One sentence from McAuliffe and he was fucking done:
“I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach.”
He wasn’t wrong – I’m the spouse of a teacher and parents are the absolute last people who should get any input into the teaching process – but you can’t say that in America and win an election. Any election. Americans of all political stripes will not accept that there should be any limits on how they choose to raise their kids.
UncleEbeneezer
@Roger Moore: As the excellent Julia Serano article I linked above notes, GAC is appropriate when kids “consistently, persistently, and insistently identify as a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth.” At some point a parent refusing to be supportive becomes downright abuse, just as it would be if a parent just decided to misgender their Cisgender child, use the wrong pronouns and force them to dress contrary to their gender identity. If any parent was caught forcing their Cisgender son to wear a dress and use a feminine name, against his will, we wouldn’t hesitate for a moment to call that abuse. I don’t see any reason why we should go any easier on parents who want to deny their Trans/NB children the opportunity to explore the most basic beginning steps of social transition, let alone denying them puberty blockers once they are old enough for that decision. I’ve read so many stories Trans/NB people recounting the fact that the prospect of going through puberty literally had them considering suicide. I think we need framing and messaging that somehow conveys that while puberty is a relatively simple thing for us (Cisgender People) that is very much not the case for Trans/NB people. For them it is an existential threat.
Betty Cracker
@Kent: Excellent points.
karen marie
@WaterGirl: I don’t know but he’s still got the same shitty sound he’s always had.
On a similar note, I want to know why large media companies have such uniformly bad streaming sites. It’s almost like they think the internet is a flash in the pan, so they aren’t bothering to put any effort into making their online content easily or consistently watchable.
eclare
@Jackie:
Thanks!
Kent
@TerryTime: The better argument is to call them Un-American.
My MAGA relatives don’t seem to mind being called “busybodies.”
But they recoil at being called Un-American. So that is the argument I usually take with them. You are being Un-American if you ask the GOVERNMENT to meddle in the private lives of others. That’s not the freedom that our ancestors fought and died for.
etc.
trollhattan
Taking a page from Trump’s “I’m the real victim here” playbook, father of HS kid who shared sex video of HS girl says kid is now being bullied and thus, the real victim. It will shock you to learn this is a rich and red suburb.
UncleEbeneezer
@Betty Cracker: Totally. I get it. I’m thinking more about long-term messaging for what we can do to help normalize the kinds of behavior we’d like to see in an ideal future, in this case, parents being supportive of Trans/NB kids. And I think, in general, way too many Cisgender People think that Trans/NB kids going through unwanted puberty is no biggie and that’s one perception we need to help change.
Another Scott
OpenThread. FTFNYT (via Google News):
Good, good.
This may have been the plan all along, but it’s good that SpaceX won’t have a (near) monopoly on this heavy-lift-humans-to-the-Moon stuff.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kent
@The Moar You Know: One battle at a time.
Anti-trans laws that affect EVERYONE are far more problematic than the few parents who are unsupportive or antagonistic towards their children. And unsupportive parents are a far broader problem than simply transgender medicine. It is a universal problem. What do we do about the Amish girl who wants to grow up to become a doctor but her parents insist that she attend a 1 room Amish school (where she learns no science) until the age of 13 then start working? That is equally abusive parental rights affecting the future and desires of a child.
We have a process for emancipation of minors who have serious fundamental conflicts with their parents. But right now getting the government out of regulating LGBT care is far more of a serious problem than parents.
Dan B
@Zzyzx: Yep. I came out as gay in 1969. Most
gaybpeopleGAY PEOPLE I knew had nothing to do with their families. The prejudice was unbelievable and overwhelming. Now the focus is on “rapist” trans. It’s a very small step to “recruiting / grooming” gays.different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker:
Remember: they want to punish everyone. They’re only starting with people who are outwardly different. It’s not about culture, it’s about domination. They’ll start with the ones they think they can get away with, and then spread it out.
trollhattan
@Another Scott: Musk et al have managed to make Bezos seem “like a decent fellow” by contrast with the more typical billionaire cowboy evil buffoons. I’m sorry our lives are so affected by their various whims and moods.
Dan B
@Dan B: gaybpeople = gay people
trollhattan
@Dan B: “Beeple lives matter!” :-)
Steeplejack
@JPL:
Gift link: “The Short Life of Baby Milo.” There is a 🎁 icon just below the bylines.
Mallard Filmore
@Betty Cracker:
It’s not only humans and sex. Have you read “The Painted Bird” by Jerzy Kosiński?
trollhattan
Pity.
Redshift
@Betty Cracker:
I first encountered the “parents rights” spin in Youngkin’s campaign, and media took it at face value, despite people who are actually involved in their kids’ schooling pointing out that there are lots of opportunities for input. But at least it was a new thing then; now no one has any excuse not to know that it means “conservative parents’ right to decide for everyone’s kids.” (And often not even parents.)
Mallard Filmore
A: “How many times did you go to a doctor and seek medicine? God wanted you to suffer or die. Why did you pervert His will?”
bbleh
Freedom for me but not for thee. See also Wilhoit on laws that protect but do not bind, etc.
JPL
@Steeplejack: thanks
The article was eye-opening to me because I hadn’t considered the tortuous death
Tony G
@Patricia Kayden: It should never be forgotten that these pro-Confederacy zealots are not only celebrating treason in defense of slavery, they are also celebrating the deaths of more than 360,000 United States soldiers, sailors and Marines. These people literally hate the United States of America.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Mallard Filmore: of course there’s a Wikipedia entry (God’s will): Parable of the drowning man
Dan B
@Steeplejack: OMG it’s amazing the power of a story. I’ve been aware in the abstract but this is heart wrenching.
Betty Cracker
@Mallard Filmore: Ages ago — so depressing!
Roger Moore
@UncleEbeneezer:
I think the basic point is correct, but I suspect relatively few cis people would say puberty was a relatively simple thing. Rather, I would say that puberty is hard enough when the way your body is changing is a way that you generally want; it must be even harder and more terrible if you’re turning into something that’s completely different from your self-image.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Related.
Ohio Mom
@Citizen Alan: I think that is a stronger argument than the government shouldn’t tell you how to raise your kid.
I’m perfectly fine with the government stepping in for all sorts of reasons: when nutty parents won’t sign off on life-saving medical procedures; sending a truant officer out after chronically absent students; putting kids in foster care when their parents are seriously endangering them; insisting on vaccines before allowing children to attend school; and there are probably other examples I’m not thinking of at the moment.
So I think we need another yardstick. Freedom of/from religion seems a stronger argument to me, though maybe too abstract for a bumper sticker. Back to the drawing board.
P.S. Strident Chris Hayes gives me a headache but I stoically sat through that seven minutes to see what this thread is about.
Redshift
@bbleh: And also Lakoff’s research into conservatives’ idea of “freedom.” Basically, freedom means the freedom to choose the right thing. If you choose the wrong thing, you’re “abusing your freedoms.”
It sounds Orwellian (okay, it is Orwellian), but apparently it’s a common mindset among authoritarian followers and others who are more comfortable not deciding for themselves.
Scout211
Some people give non-profits a bad name.
Homeless men recruited for veteran hotel scam
trollhattan
A second installment of super-slow motion video of insects taking flight. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/xbOzYMKROs8
kindness
Just wait until the Christian Nationalists of the Republican party start legislating which religions can be practiced. Particularly since their version of ‘Christianity’ is nothing like the one I was raised with.
Urza
@Dan B: I heard that line from my mother in the 90s towards gay people. Busybody worried about what other people will do to you, but several men in the family abused children including their own and everyone just covered that up cause the shame of admitting it publicly isn’t allowed.
trollhattan
Trump’s first nickname will be…?
Urza
@kindness: Oh they’ll let you practice Christianity in the church you want, with the people you want, just with cameras everywhere and permanent records on the Internet just in case someone slips in something they don’t like.
JML
@trollhattan: Uncle Tom?
Or he’ll go the other way and call him a waiter or something equally racist.
I don’t exactly see Tim Scott getting anywhere with the GOP base, though. “compassionate fascism” doesn’t exactly excite anyone else, either.
Ohio Mom
@trollhattan: That was great!
Alison Rose
@trollhattan: I’m hoping at least one person on his team will have the awareness to encourage something non-racist, but who knows. I won’t be shocked if he calls him Oreo Tim or something. And then picks him to be his running mate as a shield against accusations of racism.
Jackie
never mind.
UncleEbeneezer
@Roger Moore: Yeah I think the difference is that most Cisgender people I know view puberty as something that sucked for many reasons and they were happy to get through. Most Trans/NB people view it as something they wanted to never go through at all. Most older Trans/NB people I follow who couldn’t medically transition due to the technology/medicine at the time, say they would jump at the opportunity to go back in time and avoid all the shit that puberty did to their bodies. Likewise, statements like “I can’t even imagine what it would be like not to be able to take puberty blockers” are extremely common among younger Trans/NB people. The fact that they are (rightfully) terrified and outraged about losing access to puberty blockers kinda proves that puberty is a whole other thing them than it is for Cisgender People, imo. I don’t think our respective experiences are even remotely similar enough to warrant any sort of equivalence.
Jackie
@Alison Rose: Something to do with fried chicken and watermelon.
theturtlemoves
@Betty Cracker: My daughter went through a period in middle school where she had short hair and a penchant for basketball shorts and t-shirts and she got harassed by old busybodies going into the women’s restroom on multiple occasions. Even had some old redneck yell at her at a basketball game that they shouldn’t let boys play on the girls team. Unfortunately for said redneck, he was sitting right behind her rather large father.
AWOL
@Betty Cracker: Jesus was quoted by the media of his day saying this weird thing: “Live and Let Live.” You’d figure his holy boiled-peanut disciples would pick up on it once in a while . . .
Matt McIrvin
@AWOL: “But when this ever-changing world in which we’re living makes you give up and cry…”
Matt McIrvin
@Betty Cracker: I saw a video recently from a trans man who noted that the law was forcing him to use the women’s restroom, and said he didn’t want to hear a peep out of anyone who saw him in there as a result… and apparently the comments were just a solid mass of death threats and outrage about him going into the women’s restroom. Which the law that the transphobic bigots passed was forcing him to do.
Where did they want him to go? Nowhere, of course. They didn’t want him to exist.
Roger Moore
@UncleEbeneezer:
My point is mostly that you’ll lose a lot of cis people who might otherwise pay attention if you don’t treat puberty as an unpleasant experience for them. So rather than “puberty is ok as a cis person”, you should focus on “puberty sucks enough for cis people, but it’s unimaginably worse for trans people”.
Jackie
@theturtlemoves: My daughter went through the same phase, and a woman commented on it. I nicely said I’m enjoying it while it lasts before the bared midriff/mini skirt/too much makeup stage starts. Once she thought about it she agreed.
Miss Bianca
@Roger Moore: tell me about it.
The Lodger
@Jackie: I’m still waiting to see a sign saying, “God made no mistake. People misgendered me.”
Sister Golden Bear
@UncleEbeneezer: I agree that forcing a trans teen to go through unwanted puberty and is child abuse — imagine if parents forced cis teens to go on hormones at odds with their gender identity.
Especially since doing so has life-long consequences for the trans teen. I was fortunate enough to be able to later change my outside to match my inside, but if I could go back and time and never go through male puberty I’d do so in a heartbeat.
That said, as others have said, there’s many of things that parents force their kids to do that are horrible and abusive that the government shouldn’t intervene in.
At this point unfortunately we need to focus on getting the government to stop interfering with bodies, and talking about have the right change their bodies even if parents oppose that would just muddy the waters in unproductive ways. So much as it pains me, that’s an issue for later when we aren’t facing an existential threat to our survival.
Sister Golden Bear
@Roger Moore:
In these sorts of conversations with cis people, I acknowledge that puberty can usually suck — but then ask them to imagine they were also were forced to take hormones at odds with their gender identity, i.e. becoming a teenage girl with a beard, or a teenage boy with C-cup breasts.
Ryan
Yeah, the first few years after he moved to All In were pretty horrific. He got a lot more opinionated at the beginning of the pandemic.
UncleEbeneezer
@Sister Golden Bear: Like I said above, I’m not saying this is front-burner material or worthy of actual legislation. The point I’m trying to make is that we can use language like “Every parent deserves the right to access the healthcare that their child needs” focussing on the parents’ freedom to support their children. Obviously some shitty parents will/do deny their children what they need, but there’s no reason for us to mention it in our messaging and act like we endorse it as part of something parents are entitled to.
But I hear ya…much bigger fires to put out in the near-term. Speaking of which, this just came across my Twitter feed from SouthernEquality.org:
Resources for Transgender Youth & Families in Florida Losing Access to Gender-Affirming Care
Another Scott
@Redshift: +1
The GQP is a cult. Another, related, example – TheEastAfrican.co.ke:
Lots of people have made the same connection with the GQP. E.g. Interview with Janja Lalich (from 2018):
We’ve got years of work ahead to push these monsters back under their rocks…
Forward!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Betty:
I attended an all boys catholic HS for 1 yr. I’m not catholic, wasn’t raised or ever attended catholic church. I found out way too much to even think of going back and told mom that I’d rather be uneducated than set foot in there ever again. There are too many things that still piss me off about that day and that was 1962 or 63. And Cardinal McIntyre showed up once. For someone with a vow of poverty as a main concept of his faith he had tens of thousands of dollars worth of gold and precious stone rings on every finger, arrived in a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce limo wearing silk robes, and seemed to me to be quite the pompous, arrogant excuse for a human being. I’ve met others humans since that seemed to think their shit doesn’t stink but none that struck me as bad as he did. Let’s see, this was 60 yrs ago and it’s seared in my memory like it was yesterday. I worked in professional sports and met a few people who anyone would call arrogant, pompous, assholes and none of them held a candle to him.
Rudi666
@JPL:
Try this:
https://wapo.st/43f277j