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fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

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… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Won’t Back Down (Open Thread)

Won’t Back Down (Open Thread)

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Yesterday featured ideal tailgating and homecoming game weather: warm, but not too warm, sunny but with artfully distributed clouds to prevent overheating. Also, the Gators prevailed against the mighty Commodores of Vanderbilt, so that was good:

Florida Field during a football game

Lots of young dudes in the stands wore dress shirts, coats and ties paired with what we used to call Daisy Duke shorts back in the day, i.e., cut-off denim shorts that show a lot of leg. I assume it was a frat thing, but who knows?

Even with those beefy visuals, the highlight of the experience for me was ~90K people singing hometown boy Tom Petty’s “Won’t Back Down,” which means I am old. But mission accomplished for the trip — our niece definitely got an intriguing glimpse of festive college life.

I’m reading the news this morning to figure out what the hell is going on in the Middle East. The only solid conclusion I’ve reached is I wouldn’t have Joe Biden’s job for anything in the world. Good luck, everybody!

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

174Comments

  2. 2.

    bbleh

    … figure out what the hell is going on in the Middle East.

    I believe there are entire organizations of people trying to do that with no more success.

    Only thing I know is, in addition to all the other carnage and suffering, Palestinian civilians will be stomped on hardest of all, again, and the rest of the world either won’t care or will actively applaud. Again.

  3. 3.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I was just thinking along the same lines. Was this a smack down of her whining about not getting the attention she thinks she deserves? Or is it in support of her? Probably some of both.

  4. 4.

    J. Arthur Crank (fka Jerzy Russian)

    I understand Miami managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yesterday.  I guess their coach picked a bad day to stop smoking, drinking, sniffing glue, etc.

  7. 7.

    Geminid

    The news from the Middle East is shocking, probably too shocking to repeat on a quiet Sunday morning. I’ll just say that Middle East Eye is a fairly responsible and objective source for news from the region. Israeli news sites Jerusalem Post and Times of Israel have wall-to-wall coverage of these events, but Haaretz is better at this.

  9. 9.

    zhena gogolia

    It’s okay, the NYT Opinion section this morning is devoted to whether or not Joe Biden should run for re-election.

  10. 10.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @zhena gogolia: They should dedicate an opinion section to whether or not they should have an opinion section, all pieces written by people not associated with the NYT.

  13. 13.

    lowtechcyclist

    @bbleh:

    Only thing I know is, in addition to all the other carnage and suffering, Palestinian civilians will be stomped on hardest of all, again, and the rest of the world either won’t care or will actively applaud. Again.

    Sadly, yes.

    Specifically, there’s this:

    Israel PM Netanyahu: We will turn all the places where Hamas is organized, hiding – into islands of ruins. Residents of Gaza, get out of there now because we will act everywhere and with all our strength

    Because everyone in Gaza knows where those places are, right?  And it’s not like they can just leave Gaza.

    I want to agree with the people who say terrorism is wrong in all situations.  But I’ve yet to see anyone explain what the Palestinians should be doing instead.  The international community pays sparse attention to their plight, and they have little if any recourse through the Israeli judicial system.  What’s left?

  14. 14.

    Jeffery

    The “Freedom Caucus” will have to wait for their orders from Putin  before they make any decisions.

  15. 15.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: ​
    I guess emergency backup speaker Patrick McHenry either wasn’t available or was beneath the briefers’ notice. ETA: But I agree that Jeffries is the closest they’ve got to a Responsible Adult In Charge right now, so he was the right person to be briefed.

  16. 16.

    Ms. Deranged in AZ

    This Hamas attack seems so out of left field.  Maybe they’re thinking US, Israel’s most important ally, is distracted by the upcoming election and weakened by the ongoing support of Ukraine so it was a good time to strike?  I’m also wondering how much involvement Putin might have had in their decision to strike now. He’s been getting cozier with the Arab world for quite some time.

  20. 20.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @lowtechcyclist:

    And it’s not like they can just leave Gaza.

    That’s a big part of the problem, as far as I can tell. The rightwing Isreali government has been holding them in a pen for years, decades.

  22. 22.

    Spanky

    I’m reading the news this morning to figure out what the hell is going on in the Middle East.

    An evergreen statement if I’ve ever seen one.

  23. 23.

    piratedan

    @lowtechcyclist: there is no head of the majority party at the moment as the pro tempore is assigned to get a new speaker elected and nothing more (‘natch the GOP may well interpret it differently), so while the GOP has self-decapitated… the WH is talking to the only Congressional group with their shit together.

  24. 24.

    Betty Cracker

    @Ms. Deranged in AZ: From what I can piece together, Israel’s internal conflicts played a huge role. Lots of Israelis are rightly protesting Netanyahu’s judicial power grab, and he’s spread IDF forces so thin with the “settlement” land grabs that the border was vulnerable.

  25. 25.

    Almost Retired

    FWIW, I now wear a dress shirt, coat and tie with Daisy Duke shorts for all of my Zoom court appearances.  The judge probably does too.

  28. 28.

    sab

    @Chief Oshkosh: Decades. An Israeli from Ashkelon I knew in the mid 1990s used to talk mournfully about Gazans living on UN food drops. I believe that was during Bibi’s first government, when a lot of Israelis joked that Bibi’s cabinet meetings were held in English for the convenience of the American Republican operatives he worked with.

  30. 30.

    lowtechcyclist

    @NotMax: ​
     

    From what I’ve read, Egypt has closed the Gaza border.

    My understanding, which may be years out of date, is that it’s not all that open under the best of circumstances.

  32. 32.

    OzarkHillbilly

    A high school senior in Louisiana was stripped of her student government president title and scholarship opportunities after a video circulating on social media showed the 17-year-old girl dancing with friends at a party last week.

    Kaylee Timonet, a senior at Walker high school, was seen dancing at a private homecoming afterparty on 30 September, behind a friend who was twerking. Earlier this week, the school principal said he would revoke her leadership role and assistance in scholarship applications.

    “They basically told me that I should be ashamed of myself,” Timonet told a local news outlet. “That I wasn’t basically following God’s ideals, which made me cry even more.”

    This is a public school. I hope they take him for every penny. If he has any dreams I hope they take them too. I’m too pissed to say anything more.

  33. 33.

    RandomMonster

    Another solid conclusion: I wouldn’t want Trump as president at this time (or ever).

  35. 35.

    Geminid

    @Betty Cracker: Former Knesset Member Einat Wilf commented on this:

       Abandon those who live in the State of Israel and its sovereign territory, those who are entitled to the protection of the state and its army for those who jump on hills outside the borders of the state. The lack of a clear border in the West Bank and the collection of delusional messiahs who are only trying to stretch the borders of the state are a disaster for Israel. We will have to establish a clear border and protect those within it.

    @EinatWilf  Oct. 6 2023

    As a young woman, Ms. Wilf served on Prime Minister Rabin’s team that negotiated the Oslo Accords.

  37. 37.

    WaterGirl

    Call me crazy, but once i got over the shock of the middle east news yesterday, I couldn’t help but see the parallels to the current situation in the House. There was shock in some many circles at the recent actions by Dems in not supporting their abuser in the speaker vote.

    With all the horrible abuse of Palestinians by Israel, how is it a surprise that this happened?  When you have no political power, all that’s left is violence.

    How can people see what happened in Israel and not think of what is happening every fucking day in Ukraine?  Genocide.

    So we’re going to give a zillion dollars worth of aid to Israel because of one horrible horrible day in Israel – when there are horrors similar or worse happening every day in Ukraine – and yet not continue to support Ukraine?

    I really hope the Administration and the Senate make it clear that there is no funding for increased support for Israel unless the Ukraine funding goes through at the same time.

  38. 38.

    bbleh

    @SiubhanDuinne: @piratedan: I believe he did not.  The “Group of Eight,” which includes Jeffries, is for now a group of seven

    @Ms. Deranged in AZ: @Betty Cracker: the best explanation I’ve seen for “why now” is that the Palestinians see Saudi / Arab support fading slowly with no end in sight, so they figured “if not now then when” and took advantage of the large majority of the IDF being deployed in the West Bank.  I’ve also seen it described as an organization-wide “suicide attack” by Hamas, which is consistent with that explanation.  Unfortunately it’s not just the militant wing of Hamas who’s gonna bear the inevitable terrible cost from the retaliation.

  40. 40.

    lowtechcyclist

    @OzarkHillbilly: ​
     

    Indeed. Sue the bastard to force him to pay for every last dime of her college education, just for starters, since he’s blocking the school from helping her get scholarships.

    And I’d like to have a word or two with that principal about his so-called ‘faith’ since he apparently belongs to the First Church of Being a Vindictive Asshole in the Name of Christ.

    A real-life remake of Footloose was certainly not on my bingo card for 2023.

  41. 41.

    trucmat

    @lowtechcyclist:

    Got the daily short insult out of the way I see. I rarely get through a thread here before a short joke pops up. I decided I like Balloon-Juice enough to stick around but am going to just pie filter everyone who sneers at short men. Eventually that policy should weed out the jokers and allow me to read without getting pissed off. I’m damaged that way you see and finally realized shunning the offenders is easier than having to either speak up every time or swallow my bile.

  42. 42.

    lowtechcyclist

    @trucmat:

    Got the daily short insult out of the way I see. I rarely get through a thread here before a short joke pops up. I decided I like Balloon-Juice enough to stick around but am going to just pie filter everyone who sneers at short men.

    Excuse me, but WTF?!?

  43. 43.

    Geminid

    @trucmat: I am glad you are sticking around, and I value your comments in general and particularly on this subject.

    Ed. You may have misinterpreted something in the comment though. I often do that too.

  45. 45.

    mrmoshpotato

    @zhena gogolia:

    It’s okay, the NYT Opinion section this morning is devoted to whether or not Joe Biden should run for re-election. 

    All is right in the world. 🙄

  48. 48.

    hueyplong

    Lara Trump should attend the next 90k+ Gator home game.  That way, when they have their Petty sing-along at the end of the 3rd quarter, she can honestly say she had a better voice than over 10,000 people and Judge Box-of-whine can complain bitterly on FoxNews about how Lara is being cancelled by not receiving multi-million dollar offers.

  49. 49.

    mrmoshpotato

    @lowtechcyclist:

    I guess emergency backup speaker Patrick McHenry either wasn’t available or was beneath the briefers’ notice. 

    I read he’s out for the rest of the season with a sprained ass.

  50. 50.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @HinTN: A bit touchy, yes, but we all have our sore spots. I try to let such things go.

    eta: condescension is my sore spot.

  51. 51.

    p.a.

    Everyone here is recommitting to their support of Israel.  I wish a few would structure their statements to support for Israeli democracy.

  53. 53.

    mrmoshpotato

    @RandomMonster:

    Another solid conclusion: I wouldn’t want Trump as president at this time (or ever). 

    That horrible thought didn’t even enter my mind, but yes.  Agreed.

  54. 54.

    WaterGirl

    @HinTN: @bbleh:

    I saw “beneath my notice” and thought that couldn’t possibly be it.

    @trucmat:

    In a Tony-Jay like humorous paragraph where it’s paired with 7 other plays on words related to height?  Sure, then that could be – would be – a dig about height.

    But outside of that context, it’s a common phrase that has nothing to do with height.

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    My two cents.

  56. 56.

    trucmat

    @Geminid:

    Thanks. I really don’t want to be the resident angry short man though. It’s not like this is a crusade for me. I’ve made maybe 10 comments in the past 10 years on this issue. I just want to read in peace but I’m hyper-sensitive on the subject at the moment.

  57. 57.

    lowtechcyclist

    @bbleh:

    I believe it refers to the phrase “beneath the briefers’ notice.”

    Ah yes, of course. Which I meant because he was merely the “emergency backup speaker,” beneath notice due to his lack of importance.  Hadn’t been thinking about his height at all.

  59. 59.

    Steeplejack

    @lowtechcyclist:

    I read somewhere that Patrick McHenry doesn’t have the required security level to be briefed (i.e., Gang of Eight), so that’s why he’s out of the loop.

  60. 60.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus:  Poetic license!

    I have been in many a zoom with Almost Retired, and sometimes he gets up to get another cup of coffee, or whatever.

    I can attest to the fact that if he is soon going to be participating in a legal procedures, he does indeed wear shorts with proper court attire on top.  But this good California boy most certainly does not wear the Daisy Duke version of shorts.

    *sorry to ruin your story, Almost Retired!

  61. 61.

    trucmat

    @HinTN:

     

    @HinTN:

    It was regarding Patrick McHenry … or “he was beneath the briefers notice”. Clever actually. And yes I am definitely hyper-sensitive. Thus the speak up occasionally and pie filter often strategy.

  66. 66.

    Brachiator

    I was watching some of the BBC and CNN coverage of the situation in Israel and Gaza and had a few random thoughts.

    This conflict will probably accelerate the selection process for a new Speaker. There apparently was confusion about some military related committees getting together without a Speaker to give approval. Some Republicans who want to cut off military aid for Ukraine are hot to approve military aid for Israel.

    A lot of worried discussion about intelligence failures. The ongoing assumption is that Israel and the US should always be on top of things and be able to anticipate what the Palestinians might do. One TV analyst implied that the Palestinians are not smart enough to plan military operations and that Iran must have been behind everything.

    CNN has been quick to repeatedly label Hamas’ actions as a terrorist attack, even though they acknowledge that the attacks were coordinated and appear to have military and political objectives. But some hosts and guests insist that the “terrorists” only want to make Israelis feel afraid.

    CNN had a number of military analysts like Max Boot come on to explain what Hamas and their sponsors, Iran wanted. All of these analysts then went on to illustrate that they don’t know anything about Hamas or Iran.  This goes double for Boot, who also seemed to want to emphasize what the attack means for the US, even more than for what it means for Israel.

  69. 69.

    trucmat

    @WaterGirl:

    I’m referring to comment 15. Seems clear to me it was a clever dig meaning he was literally beneath their notice. Isn’t the most straightforward reading that it was an insult?

  70. 70.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @WaterGirl:
    I really hope the Administration and the Senate make it clear that there is no funding for increased support for Israel unless the Ukraine funding goes through at the same time.

    Same idea occurred to me. It will be hard to make that stick but worth a try.

  73. 73.

    trucmat

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The easiest way to avoid drama will be for me to pie and keep my mouth shut. It brings out the worst in people to think there might be yet another type of person they don’t get to insult without challenge.

  74. 74.

    MomSense

    @zhena gogolia:

    Best place for the NYT is in the trash.

    Trying to wrap my head around the events in Israel.  I feel such anguish about this because civilians are suffering for the failures of their leaders.

  75. 75.

    WaterGirl

    @Almost Retired: @Omnes Omnibus:

    There are demin shorts and then there are Daisy Duke denim shorts.  Believe me when I tell you that I have seen both kinds.

    In college I worked at a pizza place where the Saturday night manager wore very short denim shorts, and he liked to stand at the edge of the counter with one foot propped up on the bottom rung of the bar stool next to him.

    Some of his parts would hang out of his shorts.  THOSE were daisy duke shorts.

    :: shudder ::

    (college-girl WG never told him, but gronw-up WG would have)

  77. 77.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Mr. Bemused Senior:

    Same idea occurred to me. It will be hard to make that stick but worth a try.

    Why would it be hard to stick? Dems control the WH and the Senate. Make aid for Israel conditional with aid for Ukraine

  78. 78.

    WaterGirl

    @trucmat: I would for sure say so if I thought you were right that this was a clever dig by lowtechcyclist – but I really think you got this one wrong.

    I hope you are able to see that. It seems possible that you are on high alert for this right now, and that you got a false positive?

  79. 79.

    WaterGirl

    @Steeplejack:

    This borders on trolling.

    For what it’s worth that seems harsh.  I think trucmat is on high alert for this right now, and that jumped out at him.  I think he’s wrong on this one, and I hope he comes to see that but this isn’t trolling.

  80. 80.

    skerry

    @WaterGirl: It’s not clear to me why we should give Israel any additional military funding. They get quite a lot annually as it is and have been for decades.

    It is not at all an analogous situation to Ukraine military funding.

  81. 81.

    WaterGirl

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: We need to play hardball on this.

    No emergency support for Israel without continued support for Ukraine.  Package deal.

    We have the House Rs over a barrel if we stick to that.  It’s our best hope / strategy for getting Ukraine funding with the current situation in the House.

  84. 84.

    WaterGirl

    @skerry: I agree – I wondered about that myself, since this wasn’t a lack of equipment or resources this was an intelligence failure and the result of bad decisions by Israeli “leaders”.

    But tying Ukraine aid to the aid that is obviously going to be given to Israel – whether it should be or not – seems like the best way to get the aid to Ukraine through.

    To say that funding Israel and not Ukraine in the near future would be a fuck-you to Ukraine doesn’t even begin to describe the magnitude of the error that would be.

  85. 85.

    JPL

    @Brachiator: I did hear that Bibi wants all innocent Palestinians to leave Gaza.   Right, 2 million people can just up and leave their homes.   His statement does not bode well for Gaza.

  86. 86.

    trnc

    @zhena gogolia: David Brooks is laying out the case for and against Biden running.

    Did he run up an $80 bar tab before writing the whole column, or not until getting to the “against” part?

  87. 87.

    WaterGirl

    @JPL:

    Bibi wants all innocent palistians to leave Gaza.

    Israel wants them gone, right?  Bibi sees this as an opportunity.

    This reflexive support of Israel – when they are barely a democracy anymore – disgusts and alarms me.

  89. 89.

    JPL

    @WaterGirl: The republicans buddy is funding Iran.   I was disappointed that Dana Bash didn’t point out that Putin is their partner.   Maybe she did, but I missed it.

  91. 91.

    Gvg

    @trucmat: Beneath someone’s notice means unimportant not short.

    I don’t care for the short jokes either, but that wasn’t one of them. It’s a very common expression too so you should not be misunderstanding it.

  92. 92.

    Geminid

    When I’m having a stressful morning, I take  dose of “Clean Energy News!” And hot off the presses at Clean Techica:

        USDA 9.7 Billion Rural Community Clean Energy Program Receives 150+ Letters of Interest

    The letters of interest are the first step in spending funds authorized last August by the Inflation Reduction Act. They are primarily from rural electrical co-ops (proud member of THE Rappahannock Electrical Co-operative here! ).

       The proposals submitted will leverage private investment [and] represent $93 billion in investment in rural communities.

    More than 50% of the letters of interest indicate they will serve distressed, disadvantaged…and tribal communities.

    Clean Energy News. Try it. You’ll like it!

  93. 93.

    trnc

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: House Minority Leader @hakeemjeffries was briefed last night on the situation in Israel. He is working on scheduling a briefing for all members of the House this week. The House is without a speaker — the speaker would usually get briefed.— Jake Sherman

    One more reason that the asshole caucus would try to make DT speaker – so he would get access to classified info again.

  97. 97.

    mrmoshpotato

    @trnc:

    One more reason that the asshole caucus would try to make DT speaker – so he would get access to classified info again. 

    Ah.  Never occurred to me.

  99. 99.

    CaseyL

    I wonder about the impact on what had been, up to now, successful negotiations the US brokered between SA and Israel. The conventional wisdom is that these negotiations are over, done, dead. But CW is wrong more often than not.

    IIRC, Hamas is Iran’s catspaw; Hezbollah is the one supported by Saudi Arabia. There is also no love lost between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

    So it seems to me that, depending on the outcome of this war, rapprochement talks between SA and Israel could actually accelerate rather than wither.

  102. 102.

    JPL

    @WaterGirl:  fyi I finally corrected the spelling.

    Bibi is going to murder innocent people and I think that was his warning that the death toll will be high.

    Omnes at 96 said the statement was misinterpreted and he provides a link.   Let’s hope he is right.

  104. 104.

    Geminid

    @JPL: I’ve seen a different take on Netanyahu’s starement, that it was preceded by a list of Hamas targets within Gaza that Israel intended to strike, and that Netanyahu warned Gazans to leave those places, and not Gaza as a whole

    Ed. I’m not saying that would be a good thing, but it wouldn’t be a warning for Gazans to leave Gaza, just parts of it.

  107. 107.

    Ivan X

    @trucmat: I think if you expressed yourself from benefit of the doubt, as in “you may not have intended it, but I want you to know that language likes this hurts me, as a short man,” you may have received a more supportive response. Instead you accused, which understandably yielded the responses you got.

  108. 108.

    StringOnAStick

    How are Gazans supposed to leave Gaza, it’s had closed borders for years, which is why this boiled over into this attack.

  110. 110.

    Eyeroller

    @CaseyL: Hezbollah is very much supported by Iran, as it is a Shia organization in Lebanon.  KSA has a substantial Shia minority and the monarchy fears them, so I would be extremely surprised if they were explicitly backing Hezbollah.  It’s true that Hamas is also backed by Iran but they have their own agenda. KSA does seem to have recently put out some feelers toward Hezbollah.

  111. 111.

    Brachiator

    @WaterGirl:

    In college I worked at a pizza place where the Saturday night manager wore very short denim shorts, and he liked to stand at the edge of the counter with one foot propped up on the bottom rung of the bar stool next to him.

    This was almost fun, until I realized that you were talking about a man, and not a woman.

    However, I always thought that the point of these shorts was to be suggestive, without revealing anything.

    Also, in a workplace, no one should be exposing anything that might be offensive.

    Eons ago, when I was a young supervisor, my superior, a woman, asked me to talk to a recently promoted male lead clerk who would wear very tight pants, and no underwear. This was the first time that I had to talk to anyone about a dress code, especially since this office was fairly relaxed about what people wore.

    However, women in the office had complained. This was a touch ironic, since the guy really wanted to advertise his… attributes…to other men.

    I think I noted that since part of his job meant that he had to walk around and interact with staff, he should make sure that he did not accidentally cause offense, since this would undermine his ability to otherwise do a good job.

  113. 113.

    Joey Maloney

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Why would it be hard to stick?

    Because the freedumb carcass is perfectly happy to shoot the hostages.

    On a healthier subject, how did I get to be today years old without knowing of the genius of Nancy Griffith??

  114. 114.

    Scout211

    @trucmat: Seems clear to me it was a clever dig meaning he was literally beneath their notice. Isn’t the most straightforward reading that it was an insult?

    Others have commented, but I read the comment as, the same as “the notice was above his pay grade.”  Perhaps that way of saying it would have made the statement more clear.

    I’m just glad you are sticking around to discuss the misunderstanding and also stay here commenting.

    And to add one bit of information about McHenry and how this all began: The photo of McHenry standing on a crate? It was fake.  It was photoshopped from a photo in May when he was standing on the ground.  It was discussed in a thread from yesterday.

    ETA:  punctuation corrected

  115. 115.

    Brachiator

    @JPL:

     I did hear that Bibi wants all innocent Palestinians to leave Gaza.   Right, 2 million people can just up and leave their homes.   His statement does not bode well for Gaza.

    Also, I think that someone noted that Egypt had closed its border with Gaza.

    But yeah, telling 2 million people that they should just get up and leave is nuts. And cruel.

  122. 122.

    WaterGirl

    @Scout211: Funny I have been thinking about that on and off for a couple of weeks.  So I agree that it’s time, though I have to stick pretty close to those threads so it will have to wait a couple of weeks until the garden has been put to bed.

  123. 123.

    CaseyL

    @prostratedragon: ​@Eyeroller: ​

    Thanks for the correction; I was sure SA supported one or the other. But I think my point stands: SA won’t mind seeing Iran’s nose get bloodied, and provided Israel does a good enough job at that (Israel won’t care about grotesque civilian casualties, and neither will SA), the negotiations may continue and go well.

    My stand on the Middle East for some years has been a loathing for all parties, and a wistful desire for the rulers in the entire region to vanish in a puff of sulphurous smoke. So I can’t pick winners or losers from any moral/ethical angle, just a possible geopolitical one.

  124. 124.

    Parfigliano

    @trucmat: The only way to read “…beneath their notice…” in that context as an insult directed at a persons height is to be be purposefully looking for insults.

  126. 126.

    Jackie

    @WaterGirl: Is this the GQP stance? Or just McEnany’s opinion? Support war for Israel, but not support Ukraine defending her land? Or is because it was Omar who called for a way to reach peace?

    Fox News host Kayleigh McEnany on Sunday blasted Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) after the lawmaker called for a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

    Following terrorist attacks on Israel and retaliation against Gaza, Omar condemned Hamas’s attacks, but she also called for an end to hostilities.

    “Such senseless violence will only repeat the back-and-forth cycle we’ve seen, which we cannot allow to continue. We need to call for de-escalation and ceasefire. I will keep advocating for peace and justice throughout the Middle East,” Omar said.

    But on Sunday, McEnany demanded Gaza be punished for the actions of Hamas.

    “OK, 9/11 happens in this country, thousands of Americans dead,” McEnany said. “We went and got the Taliban. We went and got Osama bin Laden. She wants a ceasefire? No. Israel has to retaliate.”

  128. 128.

    Geminid

    @Jackie: Representative Omar is right to call for a ceasefire. One will come eventually, most likely mediated by Qatar, Egypt and maybe Turkiye. The question now is how many people will be killed and injured berween now and the ceasefire.

  129. 129.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: Another friend and former manager opened a similar place in Kalamazoo, Michigan where my sister lives.  It was a good place, too

    edit: Ralph would never have worn shorts, I don’t think.  But Joe was my favorite.

  133. 133.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Jackie:

    “OK, 9/11 happens in this country, thousands of Americans dead,” McEnany said. “We went and got the Taliban. We went and got Osama bin Laden. She wants a ceasefire? No. Israel has to retaliate.”

    Yeah, and then hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghan people were killed over the next decade+, McEnany. We attacked Iraq for no reason. Horrible example she used

  134. 134.

    UncleEbeneezer

    It has always irked me that Sam Smith’s tune “Stay With Me” won so many awards a couple years ago, given that the chord structure is such an obvious rip off of “Won’t Back Down.”  They are even in the same damn key.  Also, because WBD is such a more interesting song.  I know there’s only so many notes/chords and many songs are very similar to others and that there are countless blues tunes in E that are 90% the same etc., but in this case the songs are so damn similar that when I hear “Stay With Me”, all I can do is sing the vocals to “Won’t Back Down.”

  135. 135.

    lowtechcyclist

    @trucmat:

    No.

    There was sufficient context there to assume the phrase was taking on its normal meaning, iow that he was not worthy of notice.

    You know, “emergency backup speaker” with a lowercase ‘s’ even.

  141. 141.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @Geminid: in Adam’s Ukraine threads we often see Zelenskyy emphasizing identifying the specific individuals responsible for war crimes. I wish other leaders would adopt this approach.

  145. 145.

    Nelle

    @trucmat: I want to say this gently – sometimes, not always, people mock the overcompensation, the reactiveness, calling it short man syndrome.  Not the shortness itself.  And I do see why short people (that includes a 4’11” female friend who got relentlessly teased.  She ended up calling herself M and M, Mighty Midget and she was a force) can get exhausted from the mockery.  It is mean and unwarranted, as if others were brilliant enough to have chosen a different height.  The same can be said of other physical conditions not chosen, as my 6’8″ friend attests.

    We just got back from spending time with a friend who is maybe 5’6″ at most.  He is brilliant, relentlessly cheerful and good humored, can out-kayak, out-climb, out-ski,most people, even well into his upper 70’s.  I don’t know if he has endured mockery for his height, but if so, I would imagine that he would move on, knowing that it says so much more about the speaker than him.  And looking at his success, professionally and personally, I  know that he is having a good life, well prized as a husband, father, friend, and Harvard-educated lawyer.

    Live your good life, please.  I’m not practicing any faith, but one of my favorite verses from the Bible was when Jesus told his disciples, after a poor reception in a village, to shake the dust of the village from their feet.  Do shake the dust of insults, real or imagined, from your feet and walk on with joy.  (That goes for all of us, me in particular.  Sometimes, I’m the target of my own rants!)

  146. 146.

    Tony Jay

     Just seen the Palestinian Ambassador to the UK on Sky News absolutely eviscerate the fixed Narrative that Israel has the right to defend itself while Palestinians do not. No both sides bullshit, no fake balance, just a clear condemnation of the western Governments who have given Israel a free hand and a loaded gun for generations while condemning Palestinians to half-lives in an open air prison that occasionally has bombs tossed at it.

    If it had been the BBC he either wouldn’t have been allowed on or would have been at the end of a video line while an Israeli official and a couple of ‘Anti-terror experts’ would have been in the studio with licence to shout over him.

    It’s a shocking gauge of how hard-right UK current affairs coverage has become over the last few years that the Murdoch Media Machine is way to the left of it at times.

  147. 147.

    MomSense

    @trucmat:

    I’m all for pointing and mocking when it comes to politics, but repeated insults about height is just bullying and  hurtful.  It’s completely irrelevant to whatever criticism we are trying to make.
    I’m really sorry we are being assholes this way.

  149. 149.

    Subsole

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    Also, what the fuck is this “we” shit?

    Democrats got Bin Laden. The party everyone treated like traitor idiot children. Those folks.

    Shrub/Cheney and the More-Patriot-Than-Thou Party was too busy stumbling around Iraq looking for daddy issues WMDs.

  150. 150.

    trollhattan

    @Tony Jay: Beeb World Service interviewed a Hamas muckitymuck safely tucked away in Lebanon who spewed the sort of diatribe that remains very unhelpful to Palestinians as a whole, serving as a reminder that until Fatah somehow regains political control there are folks objectively pro eternal war who are either unafraid of or unaware of their role in keeping Bibi and people to the right of Bibi in charge of Israel. The inevitable outcome of these two foes is eternal and war, despite what Palestinian and Israeli citizens would prefer.

    I do not see the slightest opportunity for a two-state solution, and fear that ended with Rabin’s assassination.

    Shorter me: never give fascists control of your nation/nation in exile.

  151. 151.

    Geminid

    @trollhattan: Turkiye also hosts members of Hamas’s leadership. That’s one reason that nation could be a good mediator in this conflict. Turkish/Israeli relations were in the freezer for most of the last decade, but the two nations thawed them out a couple years and they are pretty good right now. Israel badly needs a mediator that has Hamas’s trust, and along with Qatar Turkiye meets that qualification.

  152. 152.

    Anyway

    @Geminid:

    Ed. I’m not saying that would be a good thing, but it wouldn’t be a warning for Gazans to leave Gaza, just parts of it.

    Gaza is densely populated – one of the densest in the world — not sure they have places of resources to leave. Residents of Gaza are fucked for the medium-term future even more than they were. Palestinians were pretty much forgotten by the international community for the past 2 decades — even by Israel who thought they had a manageable penned-in problem on their Southern border.

  153. 153.

    Anyway

    @trollhattan:

    Over the years Bibi worked to undermine and isolate Fatah so there would be no real entity for Israel to negotiate with. Hamas was useful in that regard — they hated Fatah too. Organizations like Hamas have no redeeming value, imo.

  154. 154.

    Barbara

    @Ms. Deranged in AZ: From what I have gleaned from news coverage, the amount of weaponry stockpiled by Hamas suggests this has been in the works for quite a while (they did NOT acquire the bombs and drones last week with Iranian funds).  It is apparently truly shocking that Israeli intelligence seems to have been so blindsided and unaware of the build up of arms.

    Although I don’t like to put things like this in the category, of “really, but what about us,” it is somehow ironic if fitting that the House Republican leadership structure has gone AWOL just in time to miss any relevance they might have in a significant international security event of the kind that they are most interested in.

    Of course, past being prologue, their contributions were likely to be full of misinformation and unhelpful, but still, taking yourself completely out of the game is not what power hungry people are normally trying to achieve.​​

  155. 155.

    Steeplejack

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Cold comfort, because a “Hamas location” is any place Israel declares as such. They have used this justification for every house they have ever bulldozed.

  156. 156.

    Betty Cracker

    @Tony Jay: I just looked that up because of course nothing like it is aired on US TV either. Wow. Here’s a link for anyone else who wants to hear what the ambassador said.

  157. 157.

    Geminid

    @Anyway: Israel assumed that deterrence would prevent a major attack from Hamas, and they depleted their ground forces in the South in favor of policing the restive West Bank. They did not ask themselves, what if Hamas is not deterred?

    But this government has been chaotic ever since it took power 10 months ago. Now the southen third of the country is in chaos, with over 600 killed and upwards of 750 missing, according to Israeli officials as reported in the Middle East Eye. This is in a country with less than one thirtieth the population of the US.

  160. 160.

    Geminid

    @Barbara: I think Israel knew about the build up in arms. At least, they knew that Hamas has thousands of rockets, and they knew that Hamas has several thousand trained and motivated light infantry. Those are the ones who have inflicted the greatest damage.

    But like I was saying above, the Israei government thought deterrence would keep Hamas in check and they were wrong.

  161. 161.

    WaterGirl

    @Subsole: No, he was cool.  Just oblivious.

    And I have to correct myself upthread.  The owners were Ralph and Joe, and I wrote that it was Joe who wore the short shorts, but it’s all coming back to me.  It was a manager, not the owner, but he also wore a mustache so I got that detail wrong for a minute.

  165. 165.

    Tony Jay

    @trollhattan:

    never give fascists control of your nation/nation in exile

    MMV, obviously, but considering that Israel is a democracy while the Palestinians of Gaza live under a theocratic militia, and that it’s been Israeli policy for decades to target and remove any secular figure with the credibility to think about negotiating a fair peace, ‘let’ in that formulation is doing a lot of work.

    End of the day, all people have a right to defend themselves when they’re attacked. But in this particular conflict that hasn’t been the acceptable narrative for a long, long time. Until that changes, Bibi and his Co-dependents in Hamas are going to stay foes with benefits. 

  166. 166.

    Tony Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    I don’t, I saw it live, but here’s the link Betty C put up earlier. I don’t know how much of the Ambassador’s comments it covers.

    The Sky News interviewer, bless him, doesn’t do that patented BBC sneer and just lets him make his case. And he’s right. You take away every single thing that makes life tolerable, kill them for shits and giggles, and tell them that it’s never, ever going to get better, this is how human beings react.

  167. 167.

    WaterGirl

    I just noticed that we are having this discussion about Israel and Palestine on a thread titled “Won’t Back Down”.

    Israel will never back down.  A very sad reality.

  171. 171.

    Tony Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    I didn’t, then I did. 8-)

    I really fucking the this entire topic and it’s proven tendency to get people at each other’s throats. But sometimes you just gotta say what’s if front of your face and try to keep your temper in check.

    Better than bombing each other’s houses.

  172. 172.

    trucmat

    @Ken:

    It’s all about intent. Your comment makes me think you’ll use it to ridicule someone so the answer of course is no.

  173. 173.

    WaterGirl

    @trucmat: Not sure you are doing yourself any favors here.

    To a person, as far as I can tell, we all think that the “beneath the briefer’s notice” had absolutely nothing to do with height and everything to do with the fact that this new guy – whose first actions showed him to be an absolute dick – is a nobody who does not have the same powers as a Speaker.

    He’s just there to facilitate the election of the real speaker; he’s basically a back-bencher nobody who is having his 15 minutes of fame, so of course he’s not going to be considered or a classified briefing.

    As I said, not one person here took it as having anything to do with height, and when lowtechcyclist told you that was not his intent, you kinda called him a liar to his face when you said you didn’t believe him.

    There’s plenty of good will for your cause here, but you’re using up way more than seems wise.  You said it’s all about intent.  But you can’t KNOW someone’s intent.  lowtechcyclist is not one of the dick-ish people on BJ, and yes, there are a few.  So you have someone who seems to be a pretty good guy, who I believe is an actual christian and not a poser, who tells you that his comment had nothing to do with height, but you aren’t letting it go.

    I wish you would let it go because you’re a fine commenter, and no one wants you to go away mad because you feel like you are being disrespected.  And I don’t mean pretend to let it go, still thinking you are right.  I mean really let it go, because nothing disrespectful was sent your way, so all your bad feelings are for nought.

    Maybe admit that you misinterpreted the comment?  Please don’t disrespect all of use who spoke up and said that not even for a second did we think the comment was a clever way to diss short people.

    My two cents, for what it’s worth.

  174. 174.

    Citizen Alan

    @Jackie: What’s this “we got Osama bin Laden” bullshit?!? The Obama Administration “got” bin Laden! Bush let him go at Tora Bora and later said he didn’t care much about bin Laden, as did McCain later. Republicans were furious  that Obama had the bastard taken out, which no republican president would have ever done because they needed their fucking boogie-man!

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