Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

The new republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

An almost top 10,000 blog!

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Let’s finish the job.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Narcissists are always shocked to discover other people have agency.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

The US Supreme Court is on the ballot in november.

We’re not going back!

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

Come on, man.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Wowser, This Seems Like a Big Joe Biden Deal + Last Day To Register To Vote In Ohio!

Wowser, This Seems Like a Big Joe Biden Deal + Last Day To Register To Vote In Ohio!

by | 174 Comments

This post is in: 

x

Heres’ the full filing in PDF form.

⭐️

I am really impressed by how VoteVets has stepped forward this cycle.  Not surprising since the Republicans have made it clear that they give not two shits about our national security, about the role that the military serves, or the actual human beings who put everything on the line. I guess we have Tommy Tubberville and Rs in the House and Senate to thank for something.

⭐️

I have been talking about this strategy for days. Let’s hope the wording that makes it sounds like whether they should try to do link Ukraine funding and Israel funding is the result of piss poor reporting.  I cannot think of a single reason not to do that.

⭐️

Open thread

Reader Interactions

174Comments

  2. 2.

    Suzanne

    I hope that all Americans of Ukrainian descent, and indeed all those from Iron Curtain countries, take careful note of how much the GOP loves Putin and is indifferent to his war crimes.

  3. 3.

    Alison Rose

    “what Trump knew”

    I’ll go with “shockingly little and yet simultaneously far too much”

    I also saw this at NYT: U.S. Envoy to NATO Says Aid to Israel Won’t Come at Ukraine’s Expense

    But now, as officials and industry executives acknowledge that they are struggling to meet some of Ukraine’s war demands, the Biden administration is rushing to send air defenses and munitions to Israel.

    That has raised questions as to whether the United States could keep pace with both conflicts without also impeding its own military readiness.

    Julianne Smith, the American ambassador to NATO, sought to head off concerns ahead of meetings this week of defense ministers at the military alliance’s headquarters in Brussels.

    “We don’t anticipate any challenges in that regard,” Ms. Smith told journalists Tuesday, echoing earlier assurances from Washington.

    She said the United States could both “stay focused on our partnership and commitment to Israel’s security, while also meeting our commitments and promise to continue supporting Ukraine, as it defends its territory and protects all of the values that all of us hold dear here across the NATO alliance.”

    I don’t know if she’s just doing some pie-in-the-sky thinking here, but I’ll take what I can freaking get these days.

  4. 4.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    The Biden admin. and key lawmakers in Congress are actively discussing whether aid to Israel could be linked to more funding for Ukraine as a strategy to pass both spending priorities, according to an administration official and two Republican lawmakers.

    I know this was mentioned as poor framing, but these are separate issues. There are separate cases to be made regarding each effort.

  5. 5.

    Mousebumples

    I mentioned this in a thread yesterday, and this is totally drive by posting on my lunch break, but 2 postcard updates!

    1. No postcard thread tonight. Saturday nights for the rest of the fall election period, I believe is the plan.
    2. Postcards to Voters now has Virginia addresses for Phyllis Randall and Koran Saines. Email [email protected] to get started, or else get addresses through your preferred avenue if you’re already a PtV writer.

    Proud to be a Democrat!

  6. 6.

    Shalimar

    I can think of one reason Ukraine and Israel aid wouldn’t be linked: Whoever is in charge of the House refuses to bring that bill up for a vote.  Hopefully that will not be a problem.  The bill would pass easily if they let it.

  9. 9.

    rikyrah

    We can fund both Ukraine and Israel. Not an either/or situation.

    It’s a BOTH/AND situation.

     

    Their funding should be in the same stand-alone bill.

    Muthaphuckas like Hawley ain’t slick.

  12. 12.

    Roger Moore

    The attempt to redirect aid from Ukraine is clearly more about reducing aid to Ukraine than giving it to Israel.  You can tell who is in Putin’s pocket, as if you couldn’t have done that already.

  13. 13.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    Backing Israel on this feels a little like if we had taken Russia’s side on the Ukraine conflict.

  14. 14.

    rikyrah

    Going to keep on asking this:
    Hamas said they got help from Iran.
    Iran got the info from Russia.

     

    THE question should be :
    Where did Russia get Israeli Intelligence?

  17. 17.

    piratedan

    maybe I’m just a tad jaded, but I believe that Hawley is being a bit histrionic here.  Hamas does not have the capabilities to overrun Israel.  Hurt it, yes, kill unarmed citizens, yes, initiate terror, certainly.  Should Israel be able to defend itself, you would think so, but some of these decisions on the deployment of their own military were made by their own government.

    I think Hawley is owned by people who adore sowing discord and distraction and with a Democrat in office, I fully believe that the Biden Administration can walk and chew gum at the same time and any news organization that gives credence to any GOP pol speaking to the goings on in foreign policy is simply a mouthpiece because there’s no honest analysis going on… imho.

  18. 18.

    wjca

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I know this was mentioned as poor framing, but these are separate issues. There are separate cases to be made regarding each effort.

    Philosophically, yes.  But as a practical matter (i.e. getting approval for aid to Ukraine thru the House), tying them together is a reasonable approach.

  22. 22.

    Suzanne

    @matt: One of the best parts of that McKay Coppins piece in the Atlantic about Romney was learning just how little he thought of Josh Hawley. It honestly made me feel just the tiniest bit more positively toward Mitt.

  24. 24.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Omnes Omnibus: Democracy or not, Israel is running an apartheid state and subjugating a nation of people. We refuse to question aid to Israel, why?

  25. 25.

    jonas

    @Shalimar:I can think of one reason Ukraine and Israel aid wouldn’t be linked: Whoever is in charge of the House refuses to bring that bill up for a vote.

    If we do end up in a situation where the Repubs come to the Dems begging for some votes on the Speakership, one of the demands has to be that they scotch the Hastert rule (or the more stringent versions of it that were foisted on McCarthy).

  27. 27.

    Origuy

    Somebody damaged the Baltic Connector, a pipeline and communications cable that runs between Finland and Estonia. From the Guardian:

    Extensive damage to an undersea gas pipeline and communications cable connecting Finland and Estonia “could not have occurred by accident” and appears to be the result of a “deliberate … external act”, Finnish authorities have said.

  29. 29.

    schrodingers_cat

    Do we know that the Orange One hasn’t given our nuclear codes to Russia? May be he didn’t want to admit he lost because he doesn’t want people to find the depth of his deception and treachery.

  31. 31.

    Bex

    Someone damaged the gas pipeline between Finland and Estonia.  Is Estonia someone’s next target?

  32. 32.

    prostratedragon

    @Suzanne:
    @zhena gogolia: I know and have seen what you mean, but actually something has made many in Chicago contribute to the notably Blue vote in most elections lately. Goes back at least to Rauner, who only got about 8 percent in the city in the election that he won statewide.

  37. 37.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Well, it’s a valid question, but this Congress isn’t going to raise it.  Funds for Israel will be approved.  If that can be leveraged for a package for Ukraine, all the better.

    Also, Hamas could have conducted purely military attacks on purely military targets.  I would have had zero issues with that.  They didn’t though.  They targeted civilians.  They shot up a rave for peace ffs.  I have a lot of sympathy for the residents of Gaza, but I have none for Hamas.

  38. 38.

    piratedan

    @billcinsd: in all honesty Bill, I would guess you know more about that than Hawley does… and that’s NOT intended as a slight on you……

  40. 40.

    Suzanne

    @zhena gogolia: I know. Historically, it has been because the GOP loves to blather on and on about the evils of communism while lending support to the evils of capitalism. But I would hope that this changes over time, and that they understand that the GOP would happily sell out those countries.

  41. 41.

    Roger Moore

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:

    Democracy or not, Israel is running an apartheid state and subjugating a nation of people.

    An apartheid state is de facto not democratic, at least in the way we define democracy today.  If you arbitrarily don’t let a bunch of people vote, you aren’t a democracy.

  43. 43.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Suzanne: The old reflex is there, but more than a few are beginning to see that today’s GOP is not the party of Ronald Reagan and The Committee on the Present Danger.

  44. 44.

    Steeplejack

    @Baud:

    I have to admit that in my fevered imagination I wish some incontrovertible piece of evidence would pop up tying Trump’s malfeasance around classified docs and information to Israel’s current crisis, however indirectly and by whatever chain. (E.g., Russia > Iran > Hamas.) Even if it didn’t take down Trump—and I wouldn’t bet that it would—it would still put the GQP ratfuckers on the spot.

  46. 46.

    Redshift

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:

    There are separate cases to be made regarding each effort.

    In a sane world where our opponents are engaging in good faith debate, this would matter. But we’re not in that world, and either way the fact that it’s true does not necessarily dictate what the best legislative strategy would be.

  49. 49.

    WaterGirl

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: They are both worthy – and it makes no sense to fund Israel and that have the Rs in the House say “sorry, now there’s no money for Ukraine”.

    It seems to me that it would make total sense for Russia to have been involved in this, as it potentially complicates funding for Ukraine, where he would be the sole beneficiary of that.

  51. 51.

    hueyplong

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s probably no better than 50-50 that Trump knows the nuclear codes change daily.  It seems like one of the few virtues of the shits willing to work for him is that they tended to treat him like an angry toddler who is not permitted to handle the family china and crystal.

  52. 52.

    Redshift

    Hawley’s blather is also just another variation of the annoying troll argument that pops up everywhere when some other urgent matter is in the news (like the Maui wildfires), “why are Democrats sending money to Ukraine instead of X?”

    It’s annoying because it’s a lie, of course, but it’s especially annoying because whatever the wingnut trolls about “sending money” to (like disaster relief) is almost always funding Republicans are trying to cut.

  57. 57.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Roger Moore: Agreed, but I was trying to be gentle. I know Israel is a sensitive subject for most.

    @Omnes Omnibus: If unquestionable support fot Israel can be leveraged into continued support for Ukraine, I’ll count that as a rare moral win for that particular shibboleth.

  58. 58.

    Suzanne

    @zhena gogolia: Ohio has the largest Ukrainian-American population in the US, and PA has the second-largest. I wonder if that will have electoral significance in those two swingy states.

  59. 59.

    Barbara

    Why does Iran have cash to fund Hamas?  Could it be from selling drones to Russia?  Why does Russia need those drones?

    The level of denial required to maintain the Republican refusal to connect Russia’s alliance with Iran is really kind of awe inspiring.  A bunch of useful idiots if there ever was one.

  60. 60.

    WaterGirl

    I hope the news that Jack Smith knows the details of why Trump was retaining the documents sent Trump running off to his golden throne.

    Can someone explain what the painting your nails emoji means?  Something like “this is getting interesting?”

  61. 61.

    prostratedragon

    More on SC’s advice of counsel filing:

    Special counsel again explains, if Trump intends to invoke advice of counsel defense, that means he waives any atty-client priv on comms involving the defense and then he must disclose to prosecutors ALL comms he intends to rely on AND priv comms he does NOT intend to use @ trial

    “Accordingly, waiting until the eve of the trial, or worse, then jeopardy attaches – to raise an advice of counsel defense risks causing substantial disruption and delay, partic. in this case given the number of attorneys involved,” prosecutors write.

    However,

    ndi Buchman
    @Brandi_Buchman
    1h
    And, special counsel emphasizes, by filing this today, the govt is not conceding that Trump is entitled to advice of counsel defense at trial or that its “supported by competent evidence”

  62. 62.

    trollhattan

    @Suzanne: Swingy states has me thinking they’re run by the Rat Pack. “How ya doin’ Governor Frank?” “Swingin’ Governor Sammy, definitely swingin’.”

  63. 63.

    scav

    So, how much money / military assistance do we always send to Israel each and every year and now Hawley et al just want the cash spigots immediately opened wider to the exclusion of everything else?  What if there’s another of those hurricanes we were supposed to keep a little cash back for, have the priorities switched there as well?

  64. 64.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @WaterGirl: ​
     

    What do the 👀 emojis mean?

    👀 Eyes emoji Meaning | Dictionary.com

    It mostly serves to draw attention to something the user wants to highlight, especially in situations that involve drama and interpersonal tension.

  65. 65.

    Subsole

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation:

    Depends.

    Conservatives refuse to question because they think God says the Jews are His favorites and if we deny them the smallest thing then He will lock us out of Heaven (TM). Also, they need Israel to exist so it can be destroyed at Armageddon and usher in the Kingdom of Peace, as foretold by the pastor’s esoteric interpretation of some obscure wingnut gematria.

    Democrats do question Israel. There are a great many Democrats (several on this very blog) that question Israel.

    Those who don’t tend to have very complex reasons best articulated by them. Some of it seems to be tied to ethnicity and the belief that the world has demonstrated to Jews that they need a bolthole, a land of their own to run to, because the rest of the world didn’t exactly cover itself in glory before Hitler went storming into Poland. And a lot of folks seem to be gearing up to run the same playbook, lately.

  66. 66.

    eversor

    @Bex:

    Hawley isn’t paid so much as his Christian base and the Christian National Conservatism movement are pro Putin entirely for religious and cultural reasons.

    That’s the entire trick here.  They aren’t bribed but their base see’s Putin as promoting Christianity and it’s traditional gender, sexual, and patriarchal demands.  That’s all they care about.  Same shit with Orban.

    Giggling about Putin paying people misses the entire Christian cause of this fucking mess and prevents us from dealing with it.  If we aren’t going to deal with the cause than pack it up and go home.

  68. 68.

    eversor

    @Barbara:

    If Republicans don’t back Putin they will be punished at the polls once their voters storm out of the pews to defend the defender of Christendom against godless America.

  69. 69.

    japa21

    @Omnes Omnibus:

     

    Also, Hamas could have conducted purely military attacks on purely military targets. I would have had zero issues with that. They didn’t though. They targeted civilians. They shot up a rave for peace ffs. I have a lot of sympathy for the residents of Gaza, but I have none for Hamas.

    Agree fully. The question is how to differentiate Hamas from the non-Hamas resident of Gaza. Unfortunately, the current leadership of Israel, and many people in this country, don’t think it matters.

  72. 72.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geminid:

    Every adult citizen of the State of Israel is allowed to vote.

    Does Israeli citizenship automatically confer on persons born in the occupied West Bank?

  73. 73.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Zealots are dangerous.  People who look past our common humanity and see only what they hate are capable of doing horrific things.  Look at what happened this weekend.

  76. 76.

    Geminid

    @Barbara: Iran makes a little money of the drones but they are buying Russian fighter jets so that’s at best a wash. Iran makes almost all its money selling its oil.

  77. 77.

    Jay

    GermanForeignOffice
    @GermanyDiplo
    2h
    In 2022, the international community excluded Russia from the UN Human Rights Council because of its aggression and heinous crimes against humanity in #Ukraine. Today, the UN General Assembly confirmed that there is still no place for Russia @UN_HRC . #StandWithUkraine
    Oct 10, 2023 · 4:07 PM UTC

    https://nitter.net/GermanyDiplo/status/1711775461548650504#m

    Small win today.

  79. 79.

    Old School

    @WaterGirl:

    Can someone explain what the painting your nails emoji means?

    ..

    [T]he nail polish emoji can serve as a tone marker indicating sass, fanciness, nonchalance, or self-confidence across a variety of digital contexts.

    I’m going to go with self-confidence in this case.

  82. 82.

    way2blue

    Yes to:

    The Biden admin. and key lawmakers in Congress are actively discussing whether aid to Israel could be linked to more funding for Ukraine as a strategy to pass both spending priorities,

    But they can’t blink when the craven push back.  Need to send the pro democracy cohort strap-on, extra strength backbones…

  83. 83.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Subsole:

    Conservatives refuse to question because they think God says the Jews are His favorites

    Overwhelmingly, conservatives refuse to question Israel because when they think ‘Israel’ they think ‘modern military killing Muslims’.  Israel is their proxy murdering brown people.  Exactly the things we are upset with Israel about are the things they love about Israel.

    Overlapping, some percentage of conservatives are Rapturists who want Israel to start a nuclear war because Deranged Evangelical Prophecies.

  86. 86.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Obvuoisly not the occupied territories in the West Bank. But you called Israel an “Apartheid country:” and the commenter seemed to second you with a description of Israel which was not true and I pointed out how it wasn’t.

  87. 87.

    MisterDancer

    @jonas: one of the demands has to be that they scotch the Hastert rule

    One of the issues is that it’s not a “real” rule, i.e. something the entire House votes on. It’s just something the GOP side decided to do.

    So Democrats can ask for it, but we’ve already seen what the GOP House’s word is worth, as a caucus.

  88. 88.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Roger Moore:

    An apartheid state is de facto not democratic, at least in the way we define democracy today.  If you arbitrarily don’t let a bunch of people vote, you aren’t a democracy.

    @Geminid:

    @Roger Moore: Every adult citizen of the State of Israel is allowed to vote.

    @lowtechcyclist:

    @Geminid: Does Israeli citizenship automatically confer on persons born in the occupied West Bank?

    @Geminid:

    @lowtechcyclist: You know the answer to that quedtion. Just state your argument.

    Just that your response to Roger Moore had the appearance of contradicting him, but it’s not actually a contradiction.  His point stands.

  91. 91.

    Geminid

    @lowtechcyclist: It does not. When Jimmy Carter published his book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid, Carter explained that he was referring to the occupied territories when he used the term apartheid and not to the state of Israel, even though he knew as much about the situation as you and maybe even more.

    I think Jimmy Carter was right and that you and the other commenters are wrong.

  92. 92.

    Ejoiner

    Stuck at home with my 88 year old mother (I’ve got COVID for a second time even after all the boosters!) and it’s really shocking: she watches YouTube 6 hours a day – all Israel, all the Rapture/End Times/Prophecy. She’s almost in tears (of joy?) that this is coming straight out of Scripture.

    Also – every “preacher” interpreting all this end time stuff looks exactly the same – middle age to mostly elderly, white, overweight. It’s really creepy after the 3rd or 4th video in a row!

  94. 94.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: If Israel is governing a region and not providing those people with full rights, that that region is not within their own official borders doesn’t mitigate the harm caused.

  95. 95.

    WaterGirl

    @japa21: They think the distinction doesn’t matter because they think the Palestinian people don’t matter. I think the speed of the Palestinian genocide is about to increase exponentially.

    The whole thing makes me sick.

  96. 96.

    mrmoshpotato

    Jack Smith’s filing pushing back on Trump’s attempt to delay the classified documents trial says that prosecutors know, and are ready to prove WHY Trump took the documents. 📄👀

    Oh, ready to prove that Dump is a traitorous, orange shitstain.

    When shall I thaw the steak in my freezer?

  97. 97.

    prostratedragon

    Claudia Goldin, economics Nobel:

    “When I first started working on this subject, I realized that most economic historians were studying child labor, or they were studying the labor of men,” said Goldin, the Henry Lee Professor of Economics. “But they didn’t really know what women were doing. And so that’s what I worked out.”

  103. 103.

    WaterGirl

    @Old School: I use two of them.  This one 💕 and the shrug girl, except i don’t bother to use shrug girl on BJ because after we merged all the sites together after the apocalypse, somehow the emoji set changed and shrug girl and most everything else looks like shit.

    Though I guess I do separate tweets with the ⭐️ (which also looks totally different in the comments than it does in the post itself.  Or I use the bunny as a separator.

    Other than that, emojisRnot4me

  105. 105.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geminid:

    @lowtechcyclist: It does not. When Jimmy Carter published his book Palestine: Peace not Apartheid, Carter explained that he was referring to the occupied territories when he used the term apartheid and not to the state of Israel, even though he knew as much about the situation as you and maybe even more.

    I think Jimmy Carter was right and that you and the other commenters are wrong.

    Nonetheless, Israel governs both.  ETA: Israelis living in Israel get to vote for the Israeli government, as do Israeli “settlers” in the West Bank, but Palestinian residents of the West Bank do not. /ETA) Until Israel is content to live within its pre-1967 borders, this is a dodge based on a technicality.

  107. 107.

    cain

    The fact that Israel faces an existential threat from a neighbor that only has rockets when they have nuclear weapons is laughable. A neighbor that is essentially caged in a prison of which they can control the in and out is also laughable. Hawley can go fuck himself.

  108. 108.

    cain

    @Suzanne:

    I hope that all Americans of Ukrainian descent, and indeed all those from Iron Curtain countries, take careful note of how much the GOP loves Putin and is indifferent to his war crimes.

    They should – the Russian and Ukrainian voters tend to vote GOP because they tend to be conservative.

    Ukrainian minds are probably going to be blown if they have to vote Democratic. (I dated a UKR gal once, she was apolitical but she told me her father and the entire family vote Republican here in Portland)

  110. 110.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I did not say any harm is mitigated. I know the harm as well as you do, and likely better

    Ed I do not agree that Israel is an apartheid state. If people want to say Israel is illegitimate, and should be dissolved and combined with Gaza and the West Bank they ought to. But I don’t think they should use a loaded word from another time and place to insinuate it. They should say it.

  113. 113.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Ohio Mom: I haven’t seen that map, but I’ve been aware for decades that Palestinians traveling from one part of the West Bank to another frequently had to pass through multiple Israeli checkpoints on their trip, and that backups at those checkpoints could make it difficult to do simple things like remain employed.

  114. 114.

    cain

    @zhena gogolia:

    @Suzanne: I hope. Ukrainians seem to be aware. I’m not sure about the others.

    They got no choice at this point – only one party is supporting Ukraine and sending money. The other is well ready to give up and let Russia mass murder Ukraine.

  117. 117.

    WaterGirl

    @Geminid: It sure seems like an apartheid state to me.  Using that name does not mean that I am saying Israel is legitimate and should be dissolved and combined with Gaza and the West Bank.

  118. 118.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The old reflex is there, but more than a few are beginning to see that today’s GOP is not the party of Ronald Reagan and The Committee on the Present Danger.

    If they had a Committee on the Present Danger today, it would be all about us DemonRats.

    Their foreign policy largely consists of asking the question, “can this international issue somehow be used against the DemonRats?” If so, they’ll take the side they think can be exploited against us. But if not, it’s of no importance to them.

  119. 119.

    Roger Moore

    @Geminid:

    I think the distinction between the state of Israel and the Occupied Territories is sophistry.  Regardless of their de jure status, Israel maintains de facto sovereignty and refuses to allow them to have any effective self-government.  Until they are actually Palestine with an internationally recognized government capable of formulating an independent foreign policy, the Occupied Territories are effectively party of Israel.

  122. 122.

    sab

    @Alison Rose: Isn’t a lot of the issue with arming Ukraine that they had never transitioned from Warsaw Pact to NATO armaments (the weapons, ammunition and training), and we just aren’t set up to produce anything but NATO stuff. So there isn’t much overlap between what Ukraine needs and what Israel can use.

  124. 124.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: If people want to say Israel is illegitimate, and should be dissolved and combined with Gaza and the West Bank they ought to.

    To call that a wild leap of a conclusion wouldn’t do it credit. The distance between my intent and your determination is about the same as to the moon.

    ETA: If you want to say that anyone criticizing the government of Israel wants to elininate Israel and its people, you should just say so.

  125. 125.

    MisterDancer

    @cain: The fact that Israel faces an existential threat from a neighbor that only has rockets when they have nuclear weapons is laughable.

    I hate it even has to be said — I, personally, cannot downplay the horror that is Hamas attacking so many civilians in such brutal ways.

    But yeah — I’ve been trying to follow a host of voices, including ones from Palestine. I think a LOT, in these situations, of Edward Said. Said’s ORENTALISM was ground-breaking for Academic studies of damn near anywhere that wasn’t Western Europe.

    Said was of Palestine, and proud of it. I think about his opening essay to Joe Sacco’s graphic novel PALESTINE, him talking about reading comics as a kid, him working thru what was, even back then, a hellscape I could basely imagine, save via comparisons with my own Parents and family living thru Jim Crow. And back then, I didn’t think about those situations as much as I do, knowing what I know now about that past.

    I think about what a lot of Indigenous and otherwise Marginalized people have talked about, what happens when the human spirit is utterly crushed. I’ve read, and not just in my own ancestry, what happens when people who refer to other humans as animals — on any side — get any amount of power.

    Said was part of my education that being “of Palestine” didn’t mean what I was being told on the news, no moreso than the messages about Being Black were “true”. And I’ve tried to carry that with me, up into today, where Hamas has chosen inhumanity, and triggered far more inhumanity, in return.

    In both cases, I think, as well, to this Bible verse — not in bald unthinking belief, but as example of what shit people with even the smallest amount of “power” can become:

    And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

  127. 127.

    Roger Moore

    @WaterGirl:

    The problem for Israel is that there’s no way to have a single state solution that results in a democratic, Jewish state and doesn’t involve driving the Palestinians from their homes.  My personal preference would be a democratic Jewish state that’s part of a two state solution, but it seems the Israeli government is under the control of people who want a Jewish single state and are willing to expel the Palestinians and/or give up on democracy to achieve it.

  128. 128.

    sab

    @Suzanne: Ohio voted for JD Vance, so I don’t think it matters that we have a lot of Ukrainians. Portman, his predecessor in the Senate, was head of the Ukrainian Caucus in the Senate.

  129. 129.

    MisterDancer

    @prostratedragon: Oh, I know her work! Well chosen!

    I esp. found it interesting the bit in “Orchestrating Impartiality” about having to compensate for heels. Women are expected to “dress formal” for these things, and heels are part of that. Since the sound of even low heels is very different than most masculine-oriented footgear, we tend to categorize/gender/bias people, just from hearing them walk.

    And in many cases, the biased person doesn’t even think it on a conscious basis, I think. I feel like I’ve seen a study just on this somewhere, but I can’t find it offhand :(

  130. 130.

    trnc

    @Bex: Did Hawley’s check from Putin just clear?

    I assume the regular direct deposit has been working well for quite some time.

  132. 132.

    BellyCat

    The one thing that Hamas and Israel have in common: They BOTH knew what Israel’s response would be if Israel’s citizens were attacked.

    With regard to all negatively affected innocent people, the actions by both are deplorable. Humanitarian aid is appropriate and solely what should be provided. Military aid is nothing more than a permission structure for (long desired) genocide. 

  133. 133.

    geg6

    @Geminid: ​
     
    So how would you describe what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank?
    I don’t support what Hamas has done (or what it did in the past to ruin any chance of the Palestinian State to govern themselves) here. I also do not support Israel’s criminal treatment of the people of Gaza and the West Bank over the last decade or so. The settlers, especially, are illegitimate invaders, IMHO.
    I’m against sending another penny to Israel beyond what we already send (and I’m actually against that, too, but not willing to argue and be called an anti-Semite because of it). Israel is not fighting for its life against Hamas. And Hamas is just a shit bunch who have now brought the worst of all possible worlds down on the Palestinian people. All of our efforts should be going to Ukraine. Israel is one the worst of our so-called allies, with Bibi playing footsie the last couple of years with Putin and the disgusting Saudis and making no effort to disguise his blood lust to torture and kill Palestinians, men and women and children, regardless of whether they are Hamas or not.
    I despise them all. I hope Hamas ends up like al Qaeda and Bibi ends up like Saddam. A pox on both their houses and all my sympathies lie with the Palestinian civilians who will be the ones who will suffer most from this.

  134. 134.

    CaseyL

    @cain: Yes.  Plus they brought the Russian mafia with them; it’s a large and politically well-connected presence in Israel, and has distorted both the economy and Israeli politics accordingly.

  135. 135.

    Cacti

    Israel is a brutal settler colony and has been its entire 75 year existence. It’s a democracy in the sense that the US southern states were democracies from 1776-1964.

  136. 136.

    cain

    @Roger Moore:

    The problem for Israel is that there’s no way to have a single state solution that results in a democratic, Jewish state and doesn’t involve driving the Palestinians from their homes.  My personal preference would be a democratic Jewish state that’s part of a two state solution, but it seems the Israeli government is under the control of people who want a Jewish single state and are willing to expel the Palestinians and/or give up on democracy to achieve it.

    Let’s also be clear that Hamas also doesn’t want a two state solution. Which is why Bibi loves him some Hamas and not the Palestinian Authority. Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state and they have fucks to give for Israelis or Palestinians in pursuit of that goal.

  138. 138.

    MisterDancer

    @NotMax: Rubio and DeSantis excepted.

    I know it’s a joke, but that’s actually part of the point! (Forgive the gender binary discussion points…) Men have “access” to all these kinds of footwear that “boost one’s stats” — but only in ways that both hide the boost AND ensure a level of comfort/stability as you’re moving.

    Women never get lifts in their shoes, as a rule (I accept exceptions). They have wedges and stilettos and all manner of “acceptable” fashion around shoes to modify height, but only in ways that are openly visible. Women have to show that their shoes modify their height; we’ve built an entire set of industries around doing so. Doing so in shoes that are oft-stylish far moreso than comfortable, or stable at speed.

    And that visibility plays into how we’ve also sexualized those shoe choices.

  139. 139.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Geminid: ​
     

    I do not agree that Israel is an apartheid state. If people want to say Israel is illegitimate, and should be dissolved and combined with Gaza and the West Bank they ought to. But I don’t think they should use a loaded word from another time and place to insinuate it. They should say it.

    No, what I do not need to insinuate is that Israel is already combined with the West Bank in a way that gives Israeli ‘settlers’ in the West Bank full rights as Israelis, no matter where in that combined region they are, and in a way that gives Palestinians born in the West Bank few if any rights, either in the West Bank or in Israel proper.

    I believe that combination should be dissolved, broken, ended. I want Israel to thrive in safety and security within its pre-1967 borders, and I wish the same for the Palestinian residents of the West Bank to do the same under a government of their choosing on their side of the pre-1967 border.

  140. 140.

    cain

    @BellyCat: They knew and didn’t care – they were happy to let Palestinians die so that they can be used as props for further war of vengeance. They feed on it. Exalt in it. Gaza folks are martyrs not of their own choice. Children have no choice, mothers, daughters, sons – all no choice.

    Meanwhile, Bibi is more than happy to go nuts on Gaza.

    And where is the muslim world? I’ve read that the crocodile tears that Muslim world has over the Palestinians plight. Living in tent cities in Jordan? Looked down upon as ‘low caste’? I can see why their spirit is crushed.

    Just tragic. No home, no nation – wanderers existing on the grace of others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee_camps

    ETA Give these people a semblance of Palestine – give them a home. They might not be happy but until we all force Israel to make a home – it’s not going to happen. Give economic incentives so they can trade. There will still be terrorists but less so when there is prosperity.

  141. 141.

    BellyCat

    @cain: Just tragic. No home, no nation – wanderers existing on the grace of others.

    One is reminded of another persecuted group of people from long ago. Just can’t seem to put my finger on the name of this group….

  143. 143.

    geg6

    @cain: ​
     
    The irony is painful.

    As I said above, the only ones I sympathize with at this point are the innocents in Gaza and the West Bank who will pay the price for all of this.

  144. 144.

    John S.

    @Suzanne:

    Washington also has a fairly large Ukrainian population, but I don’t think it really changes our politics much here in this extremely blue state.

  145. 145.

    MisterDancer

    @cain: And where is the muslim world? I’ve read that the crocodile tears that Muslim world has over the Palestinians plight.

    Like a lot of this, it’s deeply complex. I admit I don’t fully understand all of it! That said — this is a crucial point to resist the moniker “Muslim world” as if it’s all one entity.

    I mean, I’m looking at the same Persian diaspora who’s been pushing revolution in Iran in one fora I read also being vocally pro-Israeli, as something that’s jumped out at me in the spaces I try to review. There’s a lot of interplay here, and the “Muslim world” isn’t all of one piece — hell, even the gov’ts are spread out in terms of responses to this situation, much less the various groups and individuals in each country.

    Now, if you want to get specific — like, say, the Jordan/Egyptian reactions, as governments, to these situations — I’m all ears. I’m just trying to be wary of bundling billions of people and dozens of governments across multiple continents into One Response.

  147. 147.

    Eunicecycle

    @BellyCat: I do wonder if Israeli authorities ever have a moment where they compare the horrible way the Jewish people were treated through the centuries to how they treat the Palestinians. And yes I condemn the actions of Hamas unequivocally.

  149. 149.

    Cacti

    Israel’s first response to the Hamas attack? War crimes against the entire civilian population of Gaza.

    The leopard will never change its spots.

  150. 150.

    cain

    @MisterDancer:

    Now, if you want to get specific — like, say, the Jordan/Egyptian reactions, as governments, to these situations — I’m all ears. I’m just trying to be wary of bundling billions of people and dozens of governments across multiple continents into One Response.

    I appreciate that. After all ‘Indian’ doesn’t really get into specifics now does it? The differences can be broad – but I still use it because I’m trying to convey a general attitude.

    If I specifically say Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia – and those govts – sure. But from what I understand – across the demographic, Palestinians are looked on like how some parts of Europe looks at the Roma.

     

  151. 151.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Roger Moore: The way I always put it was that it seemed like Israel can be any two of the following three things: (1) A fundamentally Jewish state; (2) A unitary state including all of the occupied territories; (3) A modern liberal democracy with the respect for human rights such societies are expected to exercise.

    The official US position for decades was the two-state solution: Israel should give up (2), retain (1) and (3). The current Israeli ruling party’s position is basically that they have to give up (3). And, of course, Hamas attacking civilians is not going to do anything to convince them otherwise.

  152. 152.

    catclub

    Let Russia win in Ukraine and they are going for Poland next.

    Abandon Israel and …. Saudi Arabia and Egypt versus Iran.

  153. 153.

    japa21

    @Cacti: ​
      Some people feel that war crimes are an appropriate answer to war crimes. Obviously the Israeli leadership feels that way. Not all Israelis do.

  154. 154.

    Geminid

    @cain: I read what I could about the effect the Russian immigrants on Israeli politics. One academic-type article said that they tended to vote center-left, and not for right wing parties as right wing politicians had hoped. That was after the first 400,00 arrived in the early 1990s.

    There is a ton of mythology about Israel, and one of the myths is that it was a nice, liberal country until those darn Russians showed up. But the right wing government of Menachim Begin took office almost two decades before the big wave of Russian immigration. All the strains of conservatism we see now were present then.

    You could say that Begin’s Likud party was bolstered by immigrants, but they were the Mizrachi immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa who were expelled in the early 1950s. They felt looked down upon and discriminated against by the “Sabra” elites that ran the country through the Labor Party (they were), and they were drawn to Likud and its hawkish leader.

    I think people do not accept that the Israel they liked has turned into a nation they don’t, like,and want to fond a particular group of foregners are to blame, since attribution of blame is so important to them. But as far as I can tell, the unwillingness of Israelis to work towards a two state solution exists across all subgroups among the 77% Jewish majority.

    Israel’s “peace party” Meretz came into this century with 12 Knesset Members and dropped to 6 by 2010. Now they are out of the Knesset altogether. Labor is down to 5 MKs and does not advocate for a two-state solution. Its not just the Russians who are hawks.

    What changed? Some might say that Israelis are just racist through and through, like the Boers who created the actual Apartheid state, and their true nature has finally come out. But I would say the suicide bombing campaign from about 2002 to 2006 shifted Israeli attitudes a lot.. Well over 650 Israelis were killed, and the rest adopted a very repressive approach to Palestinian aspirations.

    That suicide bomb campaign has to be one of the most counterproductive and self-defeating initiatives ever. It did not advance the Palestinian cause, it set it back greatly. One could argue that this does not justify Israelis’ hostility towards Palestinians, and maybe it doesn’t. But it does explain a lot, and it explains it better than the political demographics of Russian immigrants.

  155. 155.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Geminid: And since that suicide-bombing campaign happened while the United States was busy retaliating for the September 2001 terrorist attacks, that attitude had a lot of support from the US at the time.

  156. 156.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: Well over 650 Israelis were killed, and the rest adopted a very repressive approach to Palestinian aspirations.

    I can understand why they’d be upset here, but how many Palestinians were killed by Israel in the same tome frame?

  157. 157.

    wjca

    @cain:  the Russian and Ukrainian voters tend to vote GOP because they tend to be conservative.

    There is also the detail that a Republican administration was in office when the USSR (of less than fond memory among them) collapsed.  That kind of historical reflex kept blacks voting Republican for a century after the Civil War, Even outside the Jim Crow South.  And for years tended to have Japanese Americans voting against the party which put them in “relocation/concentration camps”.  In all cases, history is (eventually) subject to later events.

  159. 159.

    catclub

    @cain: ​
     

    Give these people a semblance of Palestine – give them a home.

    Good luck with that. The world seems pretty full, and you would have to decide whose homeland to take away to give them a home. Even carving out some of Alaska as a homeland for the Jews has no chance given the present population. (It was in The Yiddish Policeman’s Union by Michael Chabon). Canada seems like a big place but I bet that would be hard too, for Either an israeli or Palestinian state.

  160. 160.

    wjca

    @cain: The fact that Israel faces an existential threat from a neighbor that only has rockets when they have nuclear weapons is laughable.

    Right up until you consider the impact on Israel of using a nuke on the West Bank, not to mention Gaza.  Not the political or psychological impact, mind.  The straightforward physical impact of the blast, plus the longer lasting radiation exposure.

    In short, Israel’s nukes are fine for threatening Saudi Arabia or Iran.  But essentially useless against the Palestinians.

  161. 161.

    wjca

    @MisterDancer: And that visibility plays into how we’ve also sexualized those shoe choices.

    While that may be true of shoes, there are plenty of other examples where visibility is avoided as much as possible.  Think padded shoulders in men’s coats or padded bras.  All intended to look closer to the stereotypical gender ideal.  Without admitting to the “enhancement”.

  162. 162.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: You can find that out if you are really interested. I’m trying to explain Israeli attitudes, not apportion blame here. Someone was talking about the effect of Russian immigrants on Israeli politics and I spoke to that.

  163. 163.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Geminid: You can find that out if you are really interested. I’m trying to explain Israeli attitudes, not apportion blame here.

    It sounded like an attempt at a justification. I’m not the type to dwell on or even remember hard numbers, but I know the distribution of violence between Israel and the Palestininans isn’t comparable in scale or efficacy, not even close.

  164. 164.

    Geminid

    @Matt McIrvin: Most Americans paid little attention to these bombings and their effects on Israel’s political culture, I think. I know Jewish Americans who did, and they pretty much hated Palestinians after that.

  166. 166.

    MisterDancer

    @wjca: While that may be true of shoes, there are plenty of other examples where visibility is avoided as much as possible.

    Which may be why I focused my comments, over and again, on gender and shoes. :)

  167. 167.

    Geminid

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: This was not an attempt at justification but rather at explaination. If I want to justify something, I try to justify it explicitly and not argue by implication.

    As for the numbers, they are not relevent to the point I was making. And like I said, you can look them up if this is important to you. There are plenty of organizations that report this information and it’s at our fingertips.

    I would encourage that in general. I know that many people really care about things but are not actually interested in learning about them. I am not trying to single you out here; it is a common phenomenon that sometimes drives me crazy.

  168. 168.

    cain

    @catclub: but they had a home – and they were pushed out and they are still there because you can’t boot everyone out. Israel needs to give them a semblance of Palestine.

  169. 169.

    cain

    @Geminid:

    That suicide bomb campaign has to be one of the most counterproductive and self-defeating initiatives ever. It did not advance the Palestinian cause, it set it back greatly. One could argue that this does not justify Israelis’ hostility towards Palestinians, and maybe it doesn’t. But it does explain a lot, and it explains it better than the political demographics of Russian immigrants.

    That was stupid shit that was exported by Saudi Arabia/ISIS.

    When you devalue life – you devalue your culture and yourselves. Basically selling martyrism.

    In Pakistan, they never had any suicide bombers for as long as I had been alive until Pakistan invited Wahabi assholes to come in and set up madrassas and then they started going to war against the Pakistani govt. I haven’t been in India in awhile but when I was there – there was all these incidents of people blowing themselves up. Muslims blowing up other muslims – wtf.

  170. 170.

    cain

    @wjca: I could accept that – but a lot of those RUS and UKR people were small business folks and they just hated paying taxes. :)

  171. 171.

    Geminid

    @lowtechcyclist: I agree with almost all of what you say except that I think that Israel should maintain military control the of the Jordan River line until this is a much more peaceful region than it is. But that’s another argument.

    But if you want a two state solution then I think you eould do well to reconsider this term “Apartheid Israel” because it is shorthand forva lot of different approaches. Proponents of a One State solution use it to to deligitimlze the existence of Israel as a state. And ardent advocates can take dissent about its use as a sign the dissenter does not care about Palestinian rights and that is just not so.

    I think Jimmy Carter had it right when he said he was not applying it to the State of Israel itself, but to its policies in the Occupied Territories.

  172. 172.

    prostratedragon

    My, that was a good nap!

    @NotMax:  Depressingly so: I was just into college when that tunnel was opened, and almost remember the nonsense about Ms. Bonema working there.

     

    @mrmoshpotato:  I think he must have. Not heard from him in a while, and he’s from one of life’s factions for whom the lack of anything to contribute would not be a problem.

  173. 173.

    wjca

    @MisterDancer: Which may be why I focused my comments, over and again, on gender and shoes. :)

    Certainly it’s easier to focus on things that are visible.  :-)

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