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You are here: Home / Politics / Trump Indictments / That Is What the Rule of Law Means

That Is What the Rule of Law Means

by | 76 Comments

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DC Indictment News

From the DC District Court:

“We do not allow such an order lightly. Mr. Trump is a former president and current candidate for the presidency, and there is a strong public interest in what he has to say. But Mr. Trump is also an indicted criminal defendant, and he must stand trial in a courtroom under the same procedures that govern all criminal defendants. That is what the rule of law means.”

Harry Litman and Andrew Weissman lay this out more clearly than I could by paraphrasing.

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I would like to know more about what they said about the need for a speedy trial.

Open thread!

Update:  PDF of the ruling   Thanks Scout211 for the .pdf file.

Reader Interactions

76Comments

  1. 1.

    steve g

    I would like to know more about what they said about he need for a speedy trial.

    I think speedy here means “trial will actually occur sometime” as opposed to “trial is delayed indefinitely”

  2. 2.

    Martin

    I suspect a speedy trial is seen as a resolution to the issue. If Trump wants to pop off on witnesses or the judge during the campaign, he can do that after the trial has concluded. A speedy trial is how he gets what he wants. If voters deserve to be able to hear his thoughts on that, then voters also benefit from a speedy trial. And if voters deserve to hear his thoughts on that, then they also deserve to hear prosecutors, witnesses, and the jury’s view, and a speedy trial solves that too.

    A speedy trial gives Trump all of the things he’s demanding.

  3. 3.

    Ruckus

    @steve g:

    It doesn’t mean speedy like diner at McDs but it does mean that it likely won’t go to the very back of the line for scheduling. I’ve had attorney friends over the years and that’s how it was explained to me. I’ve also done jury duty a number of times – lived in a smaller population county in CA so got called multiple times over the decade  I lived there.

  4. 4.

    Ruckus

    @Martin:

    And sometimes demanding and getting what he wants really isn’t likely to be good for him.

    Can’t say that concerns me in the least, court not being so good for him……

  5. 5.

    dmsilev

    @Martin:

    A speedy trial gives Trump all of the things he’s demanding.

    Except, of course, his demand that the trial be delayed until roughly the heat death of the Universe.

    Oh well…

  6. 6.

    Barbara

    Speedy trial is usually seen as the right of the defendant not to be subject to protracted detention or other negative aspects of a lengthy pretrial period, such as a biased jury pool. To put it mildly, it wasn’t adopted to address this kind of craziness.​

  7. 7.

    WaterGirl

    I guess this is what the reference to a speedy trial was about.

  9. 9.

    smith

    The emphasis on a speedy trial may arise from consideration for the accused, but in this case it also respects the right of voters to know who they are voting for. So many of the arguments for delaying the trial because he is a candidate emphasize his right to campaign, but completely overlook the rights of voters to have all pertinent information about a candidate before they vote. I don’t see why the latter doesn’t get at least equal weight when discussing the fairness of holding his trials now.

  11. 11.

    WaterGirl

    I was apparently not clear at all with my “wondering” in the last line of the post…

    I was referring to this in the final tweet up top:

    BREAKING: key affirmative of central parts of DC gag order and, as a key bonus: of need for a speedy trial.

    I was wondering what in particular in the ruling from the Circuit Court indicated that they were trying to move things along quickly.

    It appears that the tweet I added at #7 answers the question.  They reinstated the gag order, effective immediately, when they could have waited 2 weeks.  To me that looks like they understand the urgency.

  15. 15.

    Fraud Guy

    Re: speedy trial, here is the sideswipe from the opinion (bottom of p. 48):

    In this case, the general election is almost a year away, and will long postdate the trial in this case.

  17. 17.

    Scout211

    @WaterGirl: It appears that the tweet I added at #7 answers the question.  They reinstated the gag order, effective immediately, when they could have waited 2 weeks.  To me that looks like they understand the urgency.

    Here’s a .pdf of the ruling USA vs Donald Trump

    I’m glad you figured out what that tweet about the speedy trial meant because I read all 68 pages of the ruling and found no reference to it.

    LOL. Just kidding.  I did skim it and was mildly surprised with all the detailed descriptions of Trump’s statements that prompted the gag order.  And I was also surprised by how many parts were left out because are under seal.

  18. 18.

    WaterGirl

    @Fraud Guy: Ah.  I am not a lawyer, and I readily acknowledge the I don’t have the disposition to be a judge, but if I were a judge in the appeals court after Trump yesterday told Chutkan that she can’t do a fucking thing while his appeal is pending, every appeal would be completed as fast as it could be responsibly dealt with.

    In spite of what Trump believes, the only judge he is the boss of is Cannon.

  21. 21.

    Scout211

    I often wonder if Trump and his lawyer minions will finally declare, “These people on this jury are not my peers! I am Donald the Great and I have no peers! Case dismissed!”

  22. 22.

    wjca

    @Fraud Guy:

    the general election is almost a year away, and will long postdate the trial in this case.

    Sounds like they are at least expecting, if not mandating, getting to trial next spring.  I.e. as scheduled.  Which would mean that further appeals for delay are likely looking at a less than sympathetic hearing.

  23. 23.

    WaterGirl

    As a “belts and suspenders” girl, I want a conviction in the Jan 6 case and I want the Supreme Court to pass on the 12th amendment cases so that (hopefully) when the Colorado Supreme Court finds that the president of the united states IS an “officer” and rules that Trump is ineligible to run for president…

    …I think / hope / pray  those two together would be the kiss of death for Trump.

    Not counting on that, but that’s on my Christmas list.  In fact, it’s my whole list!

  34. 34.

    Redshift

    @Scout211:

    I often wonder if Trump and his lawyer minions will finally declare, “These people on this jury are not my peers! I am Donald the Great and I have no peers! Case dismissed!”

    Kind of like Napoleon crowning himself emperor, eh?

  37. 37.

    rekoob

    Calendar arrived today — two copies of A, where my dear departed buddy nestles with a nice assortment of dogs and cats (May). My habit on Friday evenings is to have a Piraat (Belgian Ale) and think about him — I’ve loved all my pets, but he was around the longest and meant the most to me. Nice to have.

  40. 40.

    Burnspbesq

    As i noted elsewhere, you can drive a truck through “with the knowledge that such interference is highly likely to result.” And Trump will, recklessly.

    But the D.C. Circuit’s opinion is first-rate, and leaves essentially nothing for the Supremes to pick at.

    And the timeline bodes well for an expeditious resolution of the defendant’s other b******t appeals.

  42. 42.

    WaterGirl

    @rekoob: I’m glad you have your calendar with your special boy.  I assume you intended two copies of A?  How does the calendar look?

    I was surprised to find that it doesn’t show holidays. ??

  47. 47.

    Mike in DC

    What matters is that at least one criminal trial, preferably this one, happen before the election.   I think the appellate court will deny a stay of the criminal proceedings.

  48. 48.

    WaterGirl

    @Burnspbesq: Can you remind me, or at least confirm that this is correct?

    The next stop after the D.C. Circuit, that issued their ruling today… is the United States Supreme Court?

    Nothing else in between?

    Do you think the D.C. Circuit court will make quick work of the immunity appeal?

    And that, too, has only one place to go if Trump doesn’t like their ruling?  (The US Supreme Court)

  50. 50.

    Fraud Guy

    Trump’s reply all but confirms his intent on his statments:

    …I can be barred from speaking and, in effect, telling the truth. In other words, people can speak violently and viciously against me, or attack me in any form, but I am not allowed to respond, in kind.

    Sounds like his logic is that if anyone says anything against him, whether in public or as a witness, that he considers it a violent and vicious attack, and he should be able to reply in kind.

    F! this guy.

  51. 51.

    Burnspbesq

    @WaterGirl:

    The next step is to ask the D.C. Circuit to rehear the case en banc. It takes a majority of the active (not senior) judges to grant rehearing. That’s extremely unlikely to happen. Once rehearing is denied, the next step is to petition the Supreme Court for cert.

    I do expect the D.C. Circuit to make short work of Fat Bastid’s appeal of the denial of the motions to dismiss. Those were borderline frivolous to begin with, and IMO Judge Chutkan’s opinion is bulletproof. Further, today’s opinion contains multiple indications that the D.C. Circuit understands the need for speed.

  54. 54.

    Jackie

    @WaterGirl: Oregon is trying to remove TIFG off their ballot, too.

    I can already hear the MAGA screams of fury – I live 30 mins from the WA/OR border. Heehee!

  57. 57.

    RSA

    I have nothing substantive to add, but…

    Mr. Trump is a former president

    I’ll bet this stings. Trump probably thinks of himself as the former President, never mind the indefinite article and the uncapitalized position.

  59. 59.

    rekoob

    @WaterGirl: Yep. One to have, one to give. I saw the discussion about the lack of holidays/moon phases and the like. I’m indifferent, although I’m sure CafePress could add them easily.

    As I indicated in that thread, I’m buying them to celebrate the community and support the charity. The calendar is a nice vehicle for that, but if there’s another way to do it, that’s fine with me.

  60. 60.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Burnspbesq:

    ETA:

    If he writes these posts, then he does seem to be losing it. More evidence along with his insane gaffes over the past few months, such as “Biden starting WW2”.

    It’s too bad Republicans/MAGA will gloss over this stuff

  61. 61.

    prostratedragon

    @Fraud Guy:
    They address the speedy trial more directly elsewhere:

    “Delaying the trial date until after the election, as Mr. Trump proposes, would be counterproductive, create perverse incentives, and unreasonably burden the judicial process,” the ruling said. “In addition, postponing trial would incentivize criminal defendants to engage in harmful speech as a means of delaying their prosecution.”

  62. 62.

    bbleh

    “We recognize the compelling, indeed urgent interest of the blogging community and the commentariat generally in a speedy trial, lest they LOSE THEIR F-ING MINDS waiting for SOMETHING-DAMMIT-ANYTHING FFS!!! to happen.”

  64. 64.

    jimmiraybob

    Speedy in geologic terms could mean something like (quoting a Scientific American article), “The next [supercontinent], dubbed Pangaea Ultima, is expected to form at the equator in about 250 million years, …” – practically right around the corner.

    Of course there will be enhanced immigrant migration, “…as the Atlantic Ocean shrinks and a merged Afro-Eurasian continent crashes into the Americas.” Build the wall!

  66. 66.

    WaterGirl

    @Burnspbesq: Trump lately is like a robot that’s glitching.

    It must be beyond stressful to be charged with 91 felonies and have all of your wealth and business on the line and the rape trial and all the other cases that I may be be forgetting, and at the same time pretending that everything’s fine.

    That would be a terrible strain on any human.  I’m a little surprised that the glitching didn’t start earlier.  Maybe the NY fraud case is shaking him to the core?

  71. 71.

    bbleh

    @Burnspbesq: as to this, I was struck to some extent in the opposite way, meaning I thought it meant “this ain’t limited just to what YOU do; it’s what your cultists do too, so none of this ‘troublesome priest’ BS” and that was a broadening that I didn’t expect.  And as to “with the knowledge,” I’d bet a court would be willing to apply a “knew or should have known” kind of test.

  74. 74.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @WaterGirl: Leone deliberately cast Fonda against type. Story is that Fonda showed up for the audition having done himself up to look like a typically Hollywood villain, and Leone told him “No, no, no, I want Henry Fonda.”

  75. 75.

    NotMax

    @Sister Golden Bear

    Fonda’s dramatic range was epic. From what I’ve read he was one of those actors, however accomplished, always insecure about the scope of his talent.

    IMHO, Peter inherited the looks, Jane the skills.

  76. 76.

    Chris Johnson

    @Sister Golden Bear: There’s a DVD box set I’ve got which has some awesome documentaries on those movies. Indeed Fonda did show up with contacts and all to look more sinister, and indeed Leone reminded him that he’d specifically hired Henry Fonda to be Henry Fonda as the villain.

    A neat twist is that, in these documentaries, there’s a little extra depth. I forget who said it, possibly Cardinale, but someone observed that Leone had seen something interesting, something cold and inflexible, in Fonda. Playing a hero, it’s easy for this to come off as backbone, but Leone correctly spotted that the same attitude made for a spectacularly frightening villain. You really believed that Fonda’s bad guy would kill a child and smile. Same steel-spined backbone and unwavering faith coming off the screen… but the axioms inside the man were a leetle different this time ;)

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