Looks like we can use an open thread!
I’ve been gardening most of the day and I’m exhausted, but I started this post last night so it will have to do!
— mike luckovich (@mluckovichajc) April 30, 2024
Did I miss any news today?
Open thread.
Reader Interactions
294Comments
Comments are closed.
SiubhanDuinne
Every now and then, Luckovich cuts far too close to the truth for comfort.
Of course, that’s what makes him such a brilliant political cartoonist.
WaterGirl
Does this mean both both chambers in AZ have voted to repeal the 1864 abortion ban? Or is it the AZ Senate who did this last week, so this isn’t really news?
Scout211
Here’s some good news:
Beat me to it, WaterGirl!
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: I just saw another tweet that says the Governor will be signing this immediately. So it must have been the AZ House that passed it last week.
That’s great news for AZ.
SuzieC
@WaterGirl: Yes that happened today. Also in the news: Steve Bannon appeared in court on his NY fraud charges before….wait for it, Judge Juan Merchan.
Manyakitty
@SuzieC: excellent.
WaterGirl
@Scout211:
For once! Usually I am putting a post together in the back room, and you beat me to it by sharing the link to the exact same tweet in before I can get it posted. :-)
That’s not a bad thing, though. It keeps us all informed.
WaterGirl
@SuzieC: Luck of the draw, baby! Luck of the draw.
Wish we had had better luck in Florida.
WaterGirl
More good news for anyone who thinks sexual abusers should be held accountable.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Excellent. A little breathing room. Hopefully people stay fired up though.
WaterGirl
I missed the brouhaha in my thread yesterday because I had a big deadline for a client. I don’t want to rehab anything that was already discussed. Was this discussed?
yellowdog
@Baud: The repeal doesn’t go into effect for 90 days and then the 15 week ban is in effect. Still a lot to get riled up for in Nov.
WaterGirl
@WaterGirl: That was supposed to be rehash, but autocorrect struck again.
smith
So, just as women regain some reproductive health rights in AZ (don’t they still have a 15 week cutoff?), women in FL lose almost all of theirs.
And what can we do about this?
Scout211
We knew this already but today, Trump confirmed it.
. . .
Yeah, part fiction, part confession. You know, the usual.
Bostondreams
@WaterGirl:
:/ Waving a red flag in front of a bull at this point I think… :/
Baud
@WaterGirl:
I think it was touched on, but that tweet doesn’t provide any evidence or reporting. I certainly think the assertions are plausible or even likely to some extent, but not much there to discuss.
cain
@WaterGirl: Weinstein killed great careers.
We should also go after the people who followed this asshole and not allow actors to get roles just because this choot couldnt run his hands up whatever actress was around.
WaterGirl
@yellowdog: Why the 90-day delay? That seems arbitrary, unless there is an AZ law that says no new law can go into effect for 90 days?
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Don’t know about AZ, but a lot of states have delay requirements.
WaterGirl
@Baud: Well, for instance, I agree with all 3 statements in that tweet. I’m wondering if others agree, as well.
jimmiraybob
I just wanted to give a positive shout out for the Project 2025 post earlier (I haven’t had a chance to read it yet but hope to tonight).
WaterGirl
@Bostondreams: Okay, sounds like that was part of the discussion. Never mind.
bk
@Scout211: “Sir”. mmm hmmm
SiubhanDuinne
@SuzieC:
Hahahahaha! The universe has a droll sense of humour.
JoyceH
Hey, guys, I’ve been watching The Eras Tour on the Disney channel, just a few songs at a time. (I have a short attention span.) I’m new to Taylor Swift, so wondering… is it just me, or… are all the tunes, just talking the music now not the lyrics, kinda samey?
hueyplong
@bk: No doubt the Secret Service agent, a big, burly guy, had tears in his eyes when he said Trump shouldn’t go down there. Seems like they were being overly protective, seeing as how it was just peaceful protesters respectfully exercising their first (and second) amendment rights.
Josie
@SuzieC:
I was just wondering yesterday why Bannon was not already in prison and here it is. I’m so glad that he drew Merchan. No more foolishness.
hueyplong
@Josie: It would be fun to do a knockoff, copying the same fonts and letter sizes, as the Trump campaign flyer:
JUDGE MERCHAN 2024
No More Bullshit
eclare
@SuzieC:
I thought Wednesdays were when Judge Merchan presided over a mental health court? Not saying that that doesn’t apply to Bannon, it just seems weird for a fraud case.
JoyceH
@hueyplong: I like the primary ads that Eugene Vindman is running – he talks about the MAGA ‘who want to ban abortions and even ban books’. Then he looks straight at the camera and says, “Send me to Congress – and I’ll stop them.”
Parfigliano
@WaterGirl: I never thought this conviction would stand. The Judge let in way way too much evidence concerning prior bad acts.
SuzieC
@eclare: Plus his other cases as necessary.
Bannon’s trial starts in September. So not only Trump, but his criminal minions will be on trial. (I think one of the remaining 3 criminal cases will go forward before the election.)
Jeffro
@Scout211: in his next telling, it’ll just be the confessional part. It’s how he operates.
eclare
@JoyceH:
I didn’t find the music samey in the concert film, but I’ve heard that about her latest double album. To me there is a big difference between her early hit “You Belong With Me” and “Anti-Hero” from last year.
As with all things taste wise, YMMV.
eclare
@SuzieC:
Ah…thanks!
Jeffro
@WaterGirl: I think it’s important for the universities and police and media to get the word out that the majority of arrests at each campus have been non-students.
60, 70% even. Not a huge deal (this will all blow over before Memorial Day) but it’s important to get it out there.
It’s not to say that the actual students and their concerns don’t matter – not at all. But the RWNJs get away with far too much flat-out lying and it’s important that at least some of the normies hear the truth: most of these folks are outside agitators (and possibly have been sent and/or paid by folks working to undermine the country)
japa21
@WaterGirl: Best to let it lay quiet for a bit. Yesterday got quite contentious. The reality is we won’t know verification of the things stated in that tweet for a long time to come.
lollipopguild
@Scout211: He will eventually make full public confession of everything because he has to. Jeffro got there ahead of me.
dexwood
@Jeffro: 11 of the 16 arrested at the University of New Mexico yesterday were non-students. Local news pointed that out.
Warblewarble
@WaterGirl: It would also be interesting to know who organised the attack on UCLA students, and who arranged the absence of the police. Unless of course there were police among the attackers.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I am skeptical. I would guess that at least 95% of the the people at these protests are sincere. I may not agree with some of their tactics. I also think that they would be better served by policing their ranks and avoiding antisemitism. I think we do ourselves no favors if we presume that they are all being misled or are astroturfed.
mrmoshpotato
@SuzieC: Hopefully they shove the wall up Bannon’s ass.
Jackie
S Dakota trying to get abortion rights on the ballot:
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@hueyplong: I actually think Merchan should jail Trump for next time he’s found in contempt. Show his supporters that he can’t even keep his own ass out of jail so maybe they better think twice about pulling something because he definitely won’t be able to keep them out of jail. It’d be a public service.
mrmoshpotato
@WaterGirl: What? Are we gonna find out next that the Tea Party wasn’t a grassroots movement but a racist, GOP-fundes backlash against the first Black president?
Baud
@mrmoshpotato:
Grass roots or not, they kicked our ass in 2010. We should be angry at our larger selves for that.
ETA: Fun fact. It was the aftermath of 2010 that persuaded me to give up on Kos and hang out here.
Geminid
@JoyceH: I have not heard any Vindman ads yet, but I heard an Angela Alsobrooks for Maryland Senate ad on WTOP (DC). It featured Senator Chris Van Hollen, Rep. Jaime Raskin and Governor Wes Moore endorsing Alsobrooks, and the news that the Washington Post has endorsed her as well. The primary is right around the corner, on May 14.
I also caught the tail end of an anti-Bob Good ad on a Charlottesville station, paid for by “Virginians for Freedom.
Ed. I expect I will hear some ads for Eugene Vindman. He has a formidable fundraising network that includes VoteVets. Right now he’s trying to advance from the June primary. Abigail Spanberger won the seat in 2022 by a little over 4 percentage points.
hueyplong
@What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: Sounds good to me.
Jackie
@WaterGirl: Yay for the women and GIRLS in AZ! At least this repeal of 1864 gives them some breathing room until Nov 5, when hopefully AZ voters can pass a bill establishing abortion rights.
Kay
@japa21:
Don’t worry. I have no intention of arguing with Angry Staffer and his/her completely unsupported accusation. smearing thousands of students in 30 states. No one can defend on that, which is the point.
VFX Lurker
I switched from Kos to B-J around the same time…maybe a little earlier. For me, though, it was firedoglake’s “kill the bill” rhetoric. I needed the ACA, dammit.
Doc Sardonic
@JoyceH: Vindman appears to be going back to the old ad format that worked well for the other side in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Identify the issue, tell the viewer/listener who to be pissed at, and then get to the ask for action.
Manyakitty
@WaterGirl: absolutely.
SuzieC
I’m thrilled that Vindman is running for Spangberg’s seat. My son lived in her district for 1 1/2 years after getting out of the Navy. I forced him to register to vote in Va. just to vote for her, which he did!
Warblewarble
@Kay: Before branding all non students who have joined the protests as malign paid agitators. Perhaps it might be worth considering that oppurtunities for people genuinely appalled at the political establishments continued support of the ongoing daily slaughter, are actually quite limited.
Doc Sardonic
@Doc Sardonic: Left off part of the last sentence. Ask for action on the part of the viewer/listener and give them the action you would like them to take.
Manyakitty
@Doc Sardonic: it’s a good format. Clear and to the point.
cain
Speaking of Bush – today was the anniversary of the “Mission Accomplished” speech by Bush – https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1chsq14/gwb_declared_mission_accomplished_21_years_ago
Still looks like a grotesque display.
Little did we know that far worse was incoming.
Westyny
@JoyceH: Blue Steel is Magnum!
Kay
@Warblewarble:
The thinking behind the percentages is flawed, too. THere’s absolutely nothing to show that “protestors who are arrested” are a proportional sample of “protestors”. There could be 100 protestors, 80 of whom are students and 20 who are not, and police arrest 10 students and 10 nonstudents. 50% non students! Nope.
You need the total number of protestors to even guess.
Dangerman
I’m thinking they went through bottles of Visine by the gross for the tears.
Doc Sardonic
@Manyakitty: Those ads ran in Florida all the time in the 80’s and 90’s, targeting Democratic politicians. The interesting thing was they ran during non election periods while the legislature was in session. They started running sporadically during the day, but started really ramping up the frequency of the ads during what I like to call the Insomniac Time slot. I think those ads really helped accelerate the Republican takeover of Florida, because state and local Democratic parties couldn’t figure out how to respond to a simple format, non combative attack ad.
Warblewarble
@Kay: Excellent point. Lies .damned lies and manipulated statistics.
piratedan
my understanding of the AZ sitch is that the repeal closes a donut hole of sorts taking away that draconic measure from being considered. The 15 week ban is scheduled to come into effect in July (IIRC) and they’re still working on confirming that Abortion will be in a statewide referendum. So while we’ve swerved to avoid the cow, the car is still in danger of going over the cliff.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: A lot of the rhetoric and sloganeering in the protests for Gaza both off and on campus reminds me of Soviet era leftwing antisemitism and anti Americanism.
I had 2 good Jewish friends who I met in graduate school who came from the former Soviet Union. Antisemitism was a way of life in the former Soviet Union well into the 90s. For example their Russian passports mentioned their Jewish identity.
Divestment from companies that do business with Israel is also not new and has been around since the late 90s at the very least. Marxist-Leninist thoughts are much more popular on campus than outside.
Funny story, a former self proclaimed anarchist who used to attend socialist-Marxist luncheons on campus went to work for Northrop Grumman. Its a passing phase for many of the activists. Many have their heart in the right place but are painfully unaware of a lot of history. Besides nothing gets you more likes on Twitter (and other social media) than bashing the US.
David 🏀Caitlin Clark🏀 Koch
@WaterGirl: Also Great News for McCain!
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: it’s probably as bad or worse there now.
Suzanne
@Warblewarble: What I just hate about this framing is that it casts a degree of suspicion of malign political intent on…. the people who are protesting genocide. Like, why are we not casting a suspicious eye on those who support Israel’s war on Gaza? I bet there’s some Russian-funded bad actors there, too.
gwangung
@schrodingers_cat: It occurs to me—why would anyone think anti-semitism WOULDN’T appear in Russia?
schrodingers_cat
@Manyakitty: I wouldn’t be surprised. I lost touch with one of my friends, the other became a citizen a few years before I did.
Geminid
@SuzieC: Virginia’s 7th CD runs from the Potomac River to the Blue Ridge. Two thirds of the residents live along the I-95 corridor, from Prince William County to Fredericksburg.
Vindman has some good opponents including state Representative Brianna Sewell, but his fundraising lead will make him tough to beat. He moved to the district only recently, but so have a lot of other 7th CD residents and in 2021 redistricting made it a 70% new district anyway.
Baud
@gwangung:
My understanding from people who knows is that it never disappeared there.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: AFAIK Isn’t Protocols of Zion of Russian origin?
Harrison Wesley
@Kay: A White House spokesperson, in describing the President’s efforts to combat antisemitism, condemned the word ‘antifa’ as ‘hate speech.’ I don’t understand that, and I don’t think it’s worth my or anybody else’s time to try to. 2024 just seems to keep running into new potholes on the road.
WaterGirl
@Baud: their loss, our gain!
schrodingers_cat
@gwangung: It didn’t disappear, just got some socialistic rhetoric added to it.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
I don’t know offhand and am too lazy right now to look it up.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Yep Russian indeed.
Geminid
@Harrison Wesley: Are you sure Biden condemned the use of “antifa” and not “intifada?” I’m not saying that condemning either is a good or bad thing, but “intifada” seems to be the word the anti-protesters are kicking about right now.
Jay
@schrodingers_cat:
Yup,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
It’s a safe read.
Rathskeller
@schrodingers_cat: yes from NKVD
Jeffro
@Kay: this seems like reaching, like, quite a bit
Noting that the # or % of arrested protestors includes a high number of non-students doesn’t invalidate what the students have to say. It does, however, help get across to the normies that there are large numbers of non-students inserting themselves into these protests.
I’m a dad of two college-aged students; I am both a) happy to see them voice their opinions (verbally, in writing, or by attending a peaceful demonstration) and b) not at all crazy about non-students on their campuses stirring up shit and making both them, their universities, and/or progressive causes look bad.
Harrison Wesley
@Harrison Wesley: Oops – meant ‘intifada.’ Hand-eye-thought coordination lacking.
Harrison Wesley
@Geminid: Yep, I just caught my own error. Should type less and think more.
Geminid
@Harrison Wesley: This is a fraught subject even when you try to think more.
Cacti
This will be remembered as the month that Biden lost the election.
The youth vote will not turn out for him like they did in 2020. The Arab-American vote may actually go against him.
I know this won’t go over well with the septuagenarian BJ crowd, and much tut-tutting will ensue, but watching Biden’s 2024 campaign has been like watching a slow motion political suicide.
WaterGirl
@Geminid: so many fraught situations all at once. Interesting times, indeed!
Kay
@Harrison Wesley:
Lol.
I thought this was neat:
The students will probably lose the vote – we’ll see how they handle that loss – but it was great to see a college talking to them instead of setting police on them.
I think about in loco parentis a lot because part of my work is inside the juvenile court system and I see lots of parents and the state as the parent (sometimes) and foster parents and guardians, and on and on. I think what we’re seeing is two approaches to “parenting” – one an authoritarian “stern daddy” approach w/commands and police and the other collaberative and focused on consent.
It’s hard to find the colleges doing a good job. The bad work gets all the media. But I’ll keep looking.
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl: Very true. I would love to be bored more of the time.
Raven
@Cacti: fuck you douche bag
Jeffro
@Cacti: hmm
Biden up in polls over trump
I guess we’ll see!
Cacti
@Kay: The last time the young people turned to the streets in force and didn’t relent, the draft ended, and the voting age was lowered to 18. It didn’t happen quickly, but it happened.
Keep it up, kids.
Sister Golden Bear
@eclare: If I remember correctly, on Wednesdays Judge Merchan both hears Mental Health Court cases, and deals with “routine” pre-trial stuff, e.g. motions, initial pleas, etc. I believe most judges — at least in the busier jurisdictions in CA that I’ve seen — have one day per week that’s allotted for the latter.
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
What a coinkydink – that was when I gave up on Daily Kos as well, though it would be another decade before I’d start hanging out in comments over here. But I was already reading the front pagers when Cole made his ‘tire rims and anthrax’ post.
Cacti
@Raven: And here comes one of the dyspeptic old farts to shake his cane now.
kalakal
@schrodingers_cat:
Yes, there’s a bit of a mystery who actually wrote it but it appeared there around 1902. It’s sometimes said to be largely copied from stuff Napoleon III’s secret police put out in the 1860s. The French stuff wasn’t anti-semitic, it was targeting Napoleon III’s political enemies. The protocols seems to have lifted the style and changed the target.
Geminid
@Raven: Jaime Dupree:
“We’ll put you down as undecided.”
hueyplong
@Cacti: You’re right that it won’t go over well, but it seems likely you’re not really aware of additional reasons why.
Cacti
@hueyplong: And when it happens, I will be here to say I told you so.
Barbara Ann Ching
@JoyceH: Yes–I think you have to listen to Taylor Swift for a long time to perceive the possibilities. I was forced to do so when my Swiftie daughter was younger. Now that she’s living on her own, not so much. Which is not to say that Taylor Swift is not worth listening to. At the “whole package” level, I think she is d an important public figure, or to put it in parent speak, “a good role model.” Potentially she is the homecoming queen who endorses Joe Biden!
hueyplong
@Cacti: Mark me down as unconcerned.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Never was much into Kos. But I would check it along, with TPM and Huffpo. Now all that has been replaced by Twitter and Balloon Juice plus Washington Post and the Snooze Hour for news.
schrodingers_cat
@kalakal: Interesting didn’t know about the French connection!.
Sister Golden Bear
@Kay: Agreed. I saw plenty of protests during my time at UC Berkeley, and the percentage of protesters who got arrested was typically a small fraction of the overall crowd. So simply looking at the percentage of students/non-students arrested doesn’t tell you much.
Although if there are efforts to astroturf the more provocative parts of the protests, it wouldn’t surprise me that outsiders would be more willing to get arrested if they knew their backers would make sure they’re bailed out (both literally and figuratively). The “anarchist” provocateurs* who’ve plagued Berkeley protests for decades always managed to disappear just before the arrests began.
*Their ideology mostly consists of “let’s fuck things up” despite the trappings of sparking the revolution, and mouthing the words of whatever protest they’re latching onto that day. FWIW, the Black Bloc folks really detest them.
Jay
@Geminid:
in yesterdays thread the subject came up.
The term being used by many of the protestors is “Global Intifada”.
They are referring to the First Intifada, which was basically a General Strike, Protests and Civil Unrest by the Palestinians against Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada
This idea fits with the Divest, Boycott idea.
Casualties ran the usual 179-1603 ratio.
Those taking offence to the term “Intifada” are referring to the Second Intifada which was much more violent on both sides, with both sides engaging in terrorism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
Casualty ratio’s were quite different, 859-2773.
schrodingers_cat
Left wing spaces in democratic countries have been infected with Russian propaganda for a very long time. There are 2 MDs in my family in India and both believe that AIDS was a CIA plot. And they are not your stereotypical cranks. PTSD from colonial past makes stuff like this believable. Russians have exploited this to the hilt.
Cacti
Biden’s general alienation of the young voters has definitely shown the limits of having a Presidential candidate who is 81 years old.
He says democracy itself is on the ballot and I don’t disagree. But maybe we could have had a vote on whether sacrificing it to preserve Zionism was worth the cost.
Almost Retired
I’ve been living the protests vicariously through my sister, who is a senior administrator at a 15,000 + student East Coast University (private, with a very liberal and international student body).
The students held a one day walkout and served divestiture demands but have generally been peaceful and usually fairly respectful. She joked “it seems to be all students. I guess we’re not important enough for outside agitators.”
Her real challenge has been with some of the major donors, who reacted explosively to the initial protests and demanded remarkably harsh action be taken (it wasn’t). Most of the loudest donors have since calmed down. She’s retiring in two weeks and returning to Los Angeles, so hopefully she can run out the clock.
Geminid
@Raven: People really like to project their own politics onto other groups.
“People here seem awful cold …hope they die before I get old.
“I’m tryng to cause a big sensation…talking ’bout their generation.
“Why don’t you all fade away…I’m gonna you what the Zoomers say.
“I’m trying to cause a sensation…talking ’bout their generation.”
lowtechcyclist
@Cacti:
That’s quite a prediction, given that the month still has 30 days to go.
Sister Golden Bear
@Sister Golden Bear: That said, I agree with Omnes that the vast majority of the protesters are sincere — albeit they could do a better job avoiding antisemitism and policing their ranks.
But extremists (whether students or not) infiltrating protests and escalating things for their own ends isn’t mutually exclusive. I’ve seen it happen a number of times. Most recently the 2020 BLM protests in Oakland had real problems with this, despite their best efforts to prevent it.
Sister Golden Bear
@Harrison Wesley: May we live in uninteresting times.
Manyakitty
@WaterGirl: I’m ready for dull.
geg6
@Kay:
I can’t believe I’m replying to this but…
The reason it is relevant to note the percentage of non-students who are arrested is it shows that the majority of students are sincere and mean no harm. It’s the outsiders who are the problem. Look at how the Pitt students and administration and the Pittsburgh Police Chief handled their protest/tent city. Only two arrests, I believe, and one was a student and the other a non-student. They were prepared and communicated and it all went away yesterday with very few problems. Kudos to all of them. Other cops and university administrators should take note.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: Judd Legum produces detailed and well-researched articles I think you’d appreciate.
WaterGirl
@Kay:
That seems super smart to me.
Omnes Omnibus
@Sister Golden Bear: Another side of this is the way many of the universities are handling the situation. As I said over on Bluesky, I have “Opinions” about the efficacy of the current protests, the message they are conveying, and their leadership, but the reaction of many administrations makes me want to show up and support the protests on general principle.
WaterGirl
@Geminid:
LOL.
Cacti
@lowtechcyclist: There are moments when you know that a candidate has stepped in a pile of proverbial shit that’s never going to come off their shoe.
Like when McCain said “the fundamentals of our economy are strong” as the entire financial sector was melting down. Biden’s disregard for the concerns of young voters on the Gaza issue, and his total silence now are going to sink him like a stone. I wish that wasn’t the case, but I call them like I see them.
My two Zoomer children can’t stand Trump, but think of Biden as old and out of touch. And I rarely talk politics with either of them, so it’s definitely not coming from me.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: wow. That is alarming.
geg6
@schrodingers_cat:
You’re missing out if you’re not still reading, if not subscribing, to TPM. What they do, they do extremely well.
Manyakitty
@Sister Golden Bear: fair. Also, I suspect the composition of the crowd varies by newsworthiness of the school.
Martin
@WaterGirl: Sent you an email.
Kay
@WaterGirl:
Yup. I think USC and Columbia are top ranked for absolutely losing their shit in a minor crisis.
We’ll put Brown down as number one for “run by grown ups who actually like students” :)
University of Michigan is a public that hasn’t gone completely brownshirt too, unlike Indiana University and Ohio State. We’ll see how they do. Whether they follow the rest of the lemmings off this fucking cliff.
Martin
Something to observe about the AZ vote. This vote will likely take some of the energy out of the referendum on the Nov ballot that Democrats were relying on to win this Senate seat, but they repealed the law anyway. They didn’t do the craven thing the GOP did of voting against their own border security package because Trump wanted to be able to campaign on it.
Jay
@Sister Golden Bear:
That is a very hard ask.
The pro-Israel “block” and the Reich Wing Media has redefined antisemitism as saying anything critical of Israel, and the worthless MSM amplifies that messaging uncritically.
With organic student protests, it is impossible to “police their ranks” because the students themselves have little to no experience in “organizing” or “protests”.
To put it in context, T’s Uni had a TA/Research strike last year. While they had lot’s of support from the other Unions, after all, they were horribly underpaid, had no benefits and they had no regular pay schedule.
It was a mess. The TA’s and Research students who were the Union and Union Admin had 0 experience in striking, picket lines, negotiations. They only had success because the other Unions had their backs and the Faculty members were watching Grant deadlines approach with none of the research done.
I used to run security for an Activist group. Protests were planned at least a month in advance, speakers and attendee’s were vetted, protestors were trained and coached, we knew who the Cops were, and we maintained our own perimeter.
But then, we had 3 generations of experience passed down.
Baud
@Martin:
Good point.
Hoppie
@schrodingers_cat: My Dad became a socialist during WW2 after long conversations with a fellow soldier who was a self-identified Communist who had fought with the Spanish Republicans. After the war he became Secretary of the Ohio Socialist party, but quit when the rest of the leadership insisted on printing membership cards on red paper. He realized they were not truly serious, but what we would today call cosplaying.
He turned into a Democrat and a government bureaucrat overseeing contracts for the Air Force, after going through a phase of being a printer.
Most people grow up.
Anyway
Muslims are despised in Putin’s Russia.
Harrison Wesley
@Kay: No love for University of South Florida? The cops did manage to drop a little tear gas there. Not too many arrests, as far as I know. But that’s the main campus in Tampa, not the one down here.
Baud
@Anyway:
Who isn’t?
WaterGirl
@Martin: Got it, thank you!
Raven
@Harrison Wesley: The kid that mows our lawn will be kicking for them next year,
Baud
@Hoppie:
There are almost no real socialist governments anymore as the term was used in the mid-century. It’s now more of a rhetorical word than a meaningful one.
Citizen Alan
@Cacti: Does that mean that if Biden wins despite your predictions you will finally shut the fuck up?
Harrison Wesley
@Raven: Very cool. I’ve grown to really like FL since moving here, despite the Cotton Mather politics.
Omnes Omnibus
@Citizen Alan: No.
Kay
This is MSU (Michigan State) :
University took sort of a middle position and struck a pretty good balance.
Cacti
@Citizen Alan: I will freely admit that I’m wrong.
But when it comes to me vs. the BJ common wisdom, I’m undefeated so far.
Hoppie
@Anyway:
Also a disproportionate part of the cannon fodder, along with other non-Russian ethnicities. Putin is using this war in part as his own ethnic cleansing project.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: It may well be a difficult request, but is asking people not to be antisemitic unreasonable?
RSA
@Geminid: Naming can be fraught. When friends tell me antifa just means anti-fascist, I think, “Okay, I’m anti-fascist, but why should I care about saving a syllable?” George Orwell has a cautionary viewpoint:
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, if we use the AIPAC/Netanyahu definition, that would consist of any criticism at all.
Anyway
@Baud:
Oligarchs? That head priest of the orthodox church -he’s buds with Pootie
Cacti
@Anyway: The one unvarnished good that the Communists did when establishing the USSR was neutering the Russian Orthodox Church.
Gloria DryGarden
@Cacti: could you call up the white house and get them on the page? A lot of people blame Biden for what he hasn’t done re Gaza. I think it’s way complicated, but he needs some useful action and talking points. They take calls there from the populace, don’t they?
I’m not joking. You have a good point. It won’t do to lose votes and let this election slide over to that vile Cheeto man.
Baud
@Anyway:
Even some oligarchs have accidentally fallen out of windows, no?
Ksmiami
@Cacti: doubtful and the stats aren’t picking this up. It’s folly to rely on young voters and the institutional Dems are smarter than that.
Cacti
@Gloria DryGarden: I wish.
SeattleDem
@Sister Golden Bear: I suspect they are the same bunch of anarchists who made Seattle’s May Day protests so unpredictable. The rumor was that they came up from Salem to inject extra mayhem here or in Portland.
VFX Lurker
Glad the Arizona Democrats did the right thing instead of the expedient thing.
Gin & Tonic
@Anyway: Truth.
NotMax
WTF & FYI.
George Santos hawking Cameo videos with his drag queen alter ego: ‘I’ve decided to bring Kitara out of the closet’
Baud
@NotMax:
I can’t believe they kicked out the most entertaining person in Congress.
Raven
@Omnes Omnibus: If they are antisemitic It is.
schrodingers_cat
@geg6: I do still read them, but not daily. I follow Josh Marshall on Twitter. I won’t give my money to the outlet that gives space to the xenophobe John Judis. YMMV. So if it a behind paywall then I don’t see it.
hueyplong
“But when it comes to me vs. the BJ common wisdom, I’m undefeated so far.”
The “so far” is such a humble touch that it brings a tear to the eye.
Jackie
@Baud: MTG takes umbrage.
teezyskeezy
@Cacti: You are probably correct, but a lot can happen between then and now. But, yes, if they had any “best laid plans” in October 2023 they aren’t working out too well.
teezyskeezy
@Jeffro: That’s a little close for comfort, though.
Geminid
@Manyakitty: Have you checked out any of Einat Wilf’s work? She was a junior member of the team that negotiated the Oslo Accords on behalf of Yitzak Rabin in the 1990s. Wilf later served a few years in the Knesset for Labor and then for Ehud Barak’s party.
Einat Wilf is an author and commentator, right now mainly about Zionism and Israel’s place in the region and world. She doesn’t talk so much about current Israeli politics but that may be because she hopes to enter the Knesset before too long. If and when there are elections, Wilf is a likely recruit for one of the Center-ish parties. She’s been out the Knesset now for 10 years, and is 51 years old.
Wilf’s English podcasts and lectures are kind of fun just because of her voice. She grew up in Jerusalem and then attended Harvard as an undergraduate, and her accent isn’t that thick. But Wilf has something like an “anti-fundie” voice: persuasive but deep and almost harsh. She keeps my attention though because she’s this really brainy fox.
Ian
@Cacti: Bit premature, don’t you think? It’s… May?
NotMax
@Baud
Bring on The Buckinghams.
:) //
WaterGirl
@Gloria DryGarden: Seriously, do you think that Biden doesn’t understand the concerns of these young people? I think he shares the concerns abut Gaza and Israel’s behavior.
Immediately after Oct 7, Biden and his team TOLD Bibi “do not make the mistake we did after 9/11.”
The situation is much more complex than the simple view the students have, or that many of us have here.
Biden is desperately trying to avoid a regional conflict, and that also impacts what he is able to do. Bibi has been telling Biden to fuck off for months now, and I believe Bibi is biding his time hoping that Trump will be elected.
It’s complicated.
japa21
@Raven: I have noticed all the hand wringing on the right about how antisemitic the protests are, even though they really aren’t for the most part. Of course, these same folks on the right had no problem with the tiki torch marchers yelling “Jews will not replace us.”
UncleEbeneezer
@Jay: Full enforcement is impossible, but people/orgs leading protests for Palestinian causes should do some cursory research into phrases and slogans that can be easily interpreted as Anti-Semitic or ones that are used by Hamas. They can purposefully avoid those and use better ones and walk around notifying anyone chanting or displaying problematic language that that’s not what we’re doing here. They can make that clear in official statements and even get on the bullhorn and remind people periodically. They can set a tone that makes it clear that that shit isn’t welcome in their movement. It only takes a little time on Google or just asking the Jewish Student Union for some guidance. That’s really not too much to ask organizers on an issue with this much history and contention. Even groups that are very loose and “leaderless” like BLM do this. It won’t stop some fuck-shit from happening but it at least presents a record to help the public understand and view the protest/movement. I’m sure some leaders are doing this already but they really all should be.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
what is antisemitic these days?
While there are some clear cut and obvious cases, (eg. Nazi’s),
Is a Jewish Professor at UC Berkley being antisemitic for supporting the students right to peacefully protest?
That’s what she is being accused of, and hate crimes as well.
Is an ADL member, infiltrating a peaceful protest, then screaming out inflammatory language to provoke a Police Riot being antisemitic?
It depends on the audience.
Cacti
@Ksmiami: You might want to check your numbers. Youth voter turnout was up 11 points in 2020 and voted for Biden by a 27 percent margin.
At present, youth voters give Biden 19% approval on his handling of Gaza, and at the moment, his standing with youth voters is -12 to -17 points from his 2020 performance, depending on which poll you check.
And all of that was BEFORE the campus crackdowns.
Cacti
@Ian: Nope.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Cacti: Fuck off, asshole.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay:
JFC!
Cacti
Yes, I think Biden is completely out to lunch on this issue as evidenced by his real world behavior over the past 7 months.
Or he just doesn’t give a shit.
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat:
John Judis has written only 4 articles for TPM in the past 2 years.
WaterGirl
@Cacti: And I think you’re wrong.
Neither of us can claim to be RIGHT – we are each sharing our own opinion.
teezyskeezy
@Anyway: And in Putin’s Russia Russians are despised by them.
Melancholy Jaques
@Baud:
A huge factor in 2010 was the number of congressional Democrats who refused to vigorously defend the president or the ACA that they themselves enacted.
While we are not in an ideal situation right now, our congressional delegation has completely transformed. We used to be dominated by Blue Dogs and conservative Democrats like Evan Bayh. Now there are hardly any of them and none in leadership.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cacti:
How dare you call me a septuagenarian, sir??!! I happen to be in my eighties, and I’ll thank you remember it.
UncleEbeneezer
@Omnes Omnibus: Also, a really good way to get around perceptions of Anti-Semitism is to speak up about Israel’s right to exist, demand Hamas return the hostages, condemn the 10/7 massacre etc. You can still be just as passionate about a need for an immediate cease-fire and critical of Israel’s horrific behavior.
Ian
@Cacti: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/history-october-surprise-180960741/
schrodingers_cat
@japa21: I don’t care what the Republicans say. I am listening to Jewish Americans I know personally IRL, on Twitter and here are saying. All of them are staunch Democrats. We should have their backs not pretend that this is just a RW talking point.
Ksmiami
@Warblewarble: they can petition congress, write letters, make phone calls etc
Gin & Tonic
@Cacti: I guess you haven’t been following russian politics much lately, if you thing it’s in any sense “neutered.”
Cacti
@WaterGirl: I think there is more evidence to back my position than yours.
Most recently, his showering of another $28 billion on the Israeli war machine, his refusal to sanction the IDF units engaged in actual pogroms in the West Bank, and his stone silence about the campus protests.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: 4 too many.
lowtechcyclist
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I don’t think I’ve pied any frequent posters besides Perpetually Sore, but a certain plural of a desert plant is tempting me to add another to that short list.
ETA: Plenty of pastry all of a sudden.
Cacti
@Gin & Tonic: Reread and give it another try. ;-)
schrodingers_cat
@Manyakitty: It is. This was in the mid 90s when AIDS was still a death sentence and the drug cocktails were in early stages.
Jay
@UncleEbeneezer:
and the issue with that is antisemitic to about 50% of the population and media is “any criticism of Israel”, like I said, what are antisemitic comments or slogans depends on the audience.
Yes, one can “coach” the protestors to not be pro Hamas, use Hamas slogans, not use The Protocols of Zion as background reading, but,
The VPM protestors were accused of being antisemitic, giving antisemitic speeches, claims were laid of hate crimes, made it in into all the local news,…….. as fact,……..and a police investigation,
and the grounds of the claims were that they did not preface every objection to what Israel is doing in Gaza, with a condemnation of the Hamas attack and calls to free the hostages.
By the time the Police finished and tossed their investigation into the trash, there were over 132,000 “complaints” that the protest by 76 people was antisemitic, terroristic and pro-Hamas
Kay
@WaterGirl:
Can I ask, what is this based on? They may have “simple views” and you know that somehow but I follow it pretty closely and I don’t think I would say that so confidently. “Simple” compared to what? Older voters, with their complex, nuanced, informed views on foreign policy? Are you kidding me?
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic:
This response from Cacti to you is laughable. You apparently just need to pay more attention!
Geminid
@Citizen Alan: I hope you don’t mind me asking: how is life in Fresno? What’s the town like?
Ksmiami
@Cacti: doubtful, but if these people think Trump will give them a better future… good luck with that. I’ll have no sympathy. The I/p conflict has been a mess my entire gen x life. My kids will probably never see it resolved. But I think the rest of us need to try and preserve our own democracy first.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
So you agree that a UC Berkley Jewish Professor should be fired for claims of antisemitic comments and hate crimes for simply supporting students right to peacefully protest.
Got it.
YY_Sima Qian
Given the tenor of the discussion of the brouhaha thread, I will repost this piece from James A. Millward, a prominent scholar of Uyghur culture, vociferous critic of the CPC regime’s oppression of Uyghurs in Xinjiang (& Israeli conduct in Gaza), & meticulous documenter of the CPC regime’s oppressive policies in Xinjiang. A few days ago I would have thought drawing the parallel to be preposterous. Now… No, not because the streets of American cities are likely to run red w/ the blood of gunned down students, but that the powers that be may well mismanage the student protest movement via similar dynamics.
Millward addressed his piece to university admin., but I think it is relevant to everyone commenting on the student protests. Emphasis mine.
Also, hat tip to Martin’s comment on campus dynamics contributing to the protests.
I don’t know whether Angry Staffer works in the WH, but if people are going to throw around such accusations, then they to furnish evidence & call for actions commensurate w/ the accusations (such as investigation by the FBI, warnings from top about hostile influence campaigns). Otherwise, it is gaslighting BS. The very same accusations were made against the Chinese student protestors early in 1989, & against the peaceful protestors in Hong Kong in 2014 & in mid-2019, & by establishment power in every polity (democratic or authoritarian) against every mobilized challenge.
That said, the students protestors should police their ranks & learn to accept half a loaf. I think the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong in 2014 should have taken Beijing’s offer of universal suffrage, even under the constraint of only candidates screened by the Legislative Council dominated establishment interests aligned w/ Beijing (democracy in a gilded cage as it was rightly derided). I think the protest movement in 2019 made a strategic mistake not to disown the extremist elements early on: the violent, the nativists, the anarchists, the independence advocates, & the advocates of return to British colonialism. They thought they could not afford to discard any potential allies when facing the overwhelming power of the Hong Kong government & the CPC regime that stands behind it. However, these extremist elements, a small minority, quickly cost any sympathy the movement might have had on Mainland China, reduced active support among the Hong Kong population, & the movement that was initially peaceful was eventually taken over by the violent extremists, & by late 2019 devolved into radicalized youths engaging in daily skirmishes w/ the police, & assaulting anyone passersby who disagreed w/ their views or tactics. The vast majority of Hong Kongers, largely sympathetic to their cause, were staying off the streets.
Young students often are naive. Perhaps the more productive action is to join them & show them how it’s done?
schrodingers_cat
@Hoppie: They do fortunately.
Ksmiami
@Cacti: Gin and Tonic is an expert on Russia co-opting it’s fucked up version of its Orthodox Church
Anotherlurker
@Gloria DryGarden: That would be too much work for Prickly Pear. Volk like him just want to bitch and bitch with the goal of discouraging Democratic voters.
Pie is good.
Sister Golden Bear
@Manyakitty:
I’m sure it does. The shit-stirrers flock to where they think they’ll generate the most attention.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: Disingenuous much?
Baud
@Ksmiami:
I think there’s confusion about whether “neutered” signifies something permanent or temporal.
Martin
@Sister Golden Bear: I’ll note that we had at least if not more anti-muslim sentiment expressed than antisemitic during demonstrations on our campus. The anti-muslim statements were never reported on, the antisemitic ones were pretty always reported on.
Two observations on this:
This isn’t to defend the antisemitic speech, but to point out that what’s being reported may be a bit biased on this. I’ve sent Watergirl a guest post that doesn’t directly cover this, but speaks a bit more to what narratives are being used in describing these things.
lowtechcyclist
The problem I have with Cacti is that supposing he’s right, what has he proposed to do about it? Not a damned thing, AFAICT. The main thing he’s doing about it is gloating about being wiser than the rest of us because he’s right and I guess we’re not.
Being right or wrong more often is useful for something like picking stocks. But I’m not going to put a bet down on the election. What’s important here is not being right, but doing the right thing. And we are: people here are writing postcards, raising money for and giving money to outfits like Four Directions, and of course voting. Whatever happens, at least we will have tried. A guy like Cacti who just has discouraging words to share isn’t going to help us try. I’m not going to waste my time listening to a guy who is telling us it’s already doomed to be wasted effort. Fuck that shit. It’s pie time.
schrodingers_cat
@Manyakitty: Columbia is in their backyard. MSM is nothing if not lazy.
Gretchen
@Cacti: my 30-something daughter says she sees a lot of her contemporaries who are upset about Gaza who say there’s no difference between Trump and Biden and they can’t vote for Biden. She’s very worried about the election for that reason.
I have been puzzled about why the famously empathetic Biden hasn’t been able to display that empathy for the dead children in Gaza. As someone who is old enough to have known people put in camps by the Nazis, I have always been strongly sympathetic to Israel, and I think Biden is stuck in that mindset long after he should have let it go. Kay’s point that this makes it seem that he values brown Americans less that white ones rings true to me.
Martin
@Manyakitty: That cuts both ways. What makes the school newsworthy often shapes how they respond to these things – usually not for the better.
Martin
@schrodingers_cat: And this is a HUGE point. Yes, the media shine a much brighter light on Columbia for exactly that reason.
WaterGirl
@Kay: In the interest of clarity, since it looks like you may have missed some of what I said, the quote was:
So I’m not suggesting that the students have simple views because they are young, and that older voters and BJ peeps have much more complex views.
I’m saying that none of us is navigating the waters of doing the right thing while also avoiding a regional conflict, which would likely have the US back in another war that we don’t want to have.
On a related note, I am not dismissing the voters who did the protest vote in Michigan.
I don’t even have words for how unacceptable what’s happening in Gaza is – and I would call it genocide, even though some people don’t agree with that.
I’m just saying that Biden has a more complete view of what his options are, and a more complete view of the consequences of those options, than we do.
I DO NOT LIKE that it appears that Biden is pressuring the ICC not to take action. I say “appears” because it’s not clear to me yet that Biden has actually done that. I haven’t seen the news yet today so something may have changed and we’ll know soon enough, if we don’t know already.
For the record, I think it’s a good thing that people are protesting what’s happening in Gaza. I want Biden to tell Bibi to fuck off, which i think he could do by acknowledging a Palestinian state. But Biden may understand consequences of doing that that I am not aware of, which brings me back to my original comment.
There are factors and consequences that Biden is aware of, that we are not. I think it’s important to recognize that it’s fucking complicated, and that we likely do not have all the information.
Martin
@Gretchen: Israel is an institutional project of the United States, and Biden is an institutionalist. I realize that’s a very paternalistic way of looking at it, but I don’t think it’s wrong. He’s treating Israel as a wayward child with nukes as every US president does, as Congress does, as the EU does. The US is going to bail Israel out of jail every time they fuck up.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
as I continually try to point out antisemitism as a term, has been corrupted to the point that it is useless as an accusation with out it being defined by the accuser, or blatantly obvious like “Jews will not replace us”.
So, today, we had President Joe Biden say that the word Intifada was an “unacceptable word” because the Reichwing Media and AIPAC say it is antisemitic, along with “Global Intifada”.
Next it will be “Boycott, Divest, Protest”. To about 50% of the US, that is also antisemitic.
WaterGirl
@Jay:
I feel compelled to state that what you wrote there is not something I think Omnes would ever say. I’m sure Omnes will correct me if I’m wrong!
WaterGirl
@lowtechcyclist:
Well said!
Kay
@WaterGirl:
Thanks. I read them quite a bit. I like kids and I find these kids inspiring – they make mistakes but that’s partly because the leaders at the colleges just suck. Last night on social media they were passing around a comment from a historian who said it took 50 years of protests to end apartheid in South Africa.
Baud
@Jay:
Pretty sure the problem with intifada is it was violent.
We also try not to use crusade when referring to the Middle East. And that was a long time ago.
SoupCatcher
I’m just throwing this out as a data point. Long digression to follow.
I work at a business that accepts Purchase Orders from state schools and, as a hobby, I like to skim the boilerplate to see what Republican legislatures are inserting; they have been adding conditions for years. As an example, we had a recent project where we recommended a Canadian consultant and he did his work while on a trip to the United States because the state has a requirement that all data electronically transmitted as part of a project has to remain in this country. We told them we couldn’t guarantee that us emailing him data wouldn’t get routed out of the country during the transmission, but having both him and us on US soil satisfied them.
One thing that I started seeing in various red state school Purchase Orders years ago was a condition about Israeli divestiture and that we, as a company, agreed that we would never do that. I’m curious how many state legislatures have made that part of their laws for institutions that receive state funding.
Baud
@SoupCatcher:
A lot. I’m sure there’s a list.
WaterGirl
@Kay: I admire the protestors, too. Just like I admire the people who stood up against the Vietnam War.
Right up until the point that they let their “we can’t let the Palestinian people be murdered” protest be co-opted by people who don’t just say what Israel is doing is wrong, but who say Israel has no right to exist, that Jews are people to be hated.
I think we have to separate what the Jewish government is doing from Jewish people.
Sister Golden Bear
@Martin: I haven’t been following the details of the protests to comment on what’s happening on the ground, but I definitely agree with your overall points.
Also another factor is that larger percentage of Muslims are more recent immigrants, and therefore haven’t had decades to integrate into positions of power (e.g. professors and public intellectuals, politicians, media people, etc.) who can educate the public about anti-Muslim sentiments, and call out those sentiments. (Note: This is in no way intended to imply “Jews control the media” etc. nor to minimize the still all too pervasive antisemitism. Rather that it’s somewhat comparable to the situation that Jews in America faced shortly after the first major waves of Jewish immigration.)
Hoppie
@lowtechcyclist: The likelihood is that (s)he is not right.
The swing state polls showing Trump leading are almost ALL within the margin of error. It is plausible the likely voter models, based on historic turnout trends, are flawed. Polls this early are often wrong (Dukakis and Mondale were both ahead early on). Most voters are not paying attention.
We must keep up our efforts, but despair is a tool of evil. I applaud all who do not succumb.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: Symbols and words have specific meanings in specific contexts. Protesting Hakeem Jaffries with a watermelon placard was bad form.
Some cluelesss bhakt tweeted out a swastika to a Jewish person to show their solidarity. In the Hindu context its symbol of good luck. My reaction:: headdesk.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: Me @ 118. Also, if Jay can’t see that the “Go Back to Poland” signs and those depicting Israel as a spider with a hook nosed face are antisemitic, I can’t help him. I know that those are a minority of the signs carried by a small minority of the protestors, but those are ones that are going get publicized. I would not want to be a part of a group that condoned that kind of message, even tacitly.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
Yeah, that’s an oopsie.
Sister Golden Bear
@lowtechcyclist: My response to a certain desert plant is “OK, doomer” — and then moving on to actually doing something to prevent the doom from occurring.
SoupCatcher
@Baud:
You’re right. Looks like more than half.
https://www.newsweek.com/pro-palestinian-protest-states-colleges-illegal-bds-1895292
Timill
@lowtechcyclist:
Become a patissier?
Jay
@WaterGirl:
I know Omnes wouldn’t but,
as I have tried to point out, time and time again, the term antisemitic is defined by the audience.
Bibi/the Reichwing/APIAC/ADL hold the position that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic, and that has become mainstream.
So, when claims are made that students are using antisemitic chants, etc, with out those being actually reported, well,…….
And today, President Joe Biden inferred that the word intifada or the term global intifada, (Boycott, Divest, Protest) is antisemitic, just like Bibi/the Reichwing/APIAC/ADL/Bunch of Red State Govs and have enacted laws, claim it is.
Nelle
Sorry. I can’t get on the round of the campus issues.
Because I have 57 households to visit this next two weeks, before the primary. I can do that. But I’m asked to write postcards for each bag I leave and can anyone assure me that they make a difference? I’ve had some help, but boy, I dislike writing them. I’m sort of stalled out tonight.
On a very different and entirely light note, May 1 is celebrated in our neighborhood by children running up to doors, leaving cups of treats, ringing the doorbell, and running away in high giggles. When I was young, we did that with flowers.
So much for my day without sugar.
Jay
@Baud:
The First Intifada was a general strike and protests. Only became semi violent when the IDF started shooting protestors, making mass arrests and torturing people. Kids with rocks against tanks and snipers. That’s when a Blue Helmet and Vest with Press in large block white letters became a “legitimate” target for the IDF.
The Second Intifada started with terrorism, ended with terrorism. Israel “won” that one too, but their kill ratio was down by over 80%.
The protestors calling for a “Global Intifada” in their chants, are calling for “Boycott, Divest, Protest”.
Pretty sure the way things are going in the US, you can be shot for saying that.
Baud
@Jay:
If you use a word that has a double entendre, you’re going to get criticized for it when one of the entendres is violent.
Right wingers do this all the time and we condemn them for it.
Martin
@Sister Golden Bear: Yeah, I think there’s a dynamic here that is a bit hard to talk about which is that Jewish Americans have steadily accumulated more institutional power (well earned) and yet are still a discriminated group in the US. Muslim Americans have not yet accumulated much institutional power. And sometimes this shows in unintended ways.
Some years ago we had a student incident that got a bit too much out of hand where pro-Palestine students shouted down an invited and prominent pro-Israel speaker. That was wrong. But one thing we realized in talking to the students was that they weren’t objectively opposed to the pro-Israel speaker. They hadn’t shouted down the last 4 speakers. But the campus wasn’t inviting Mulsim or pro-Palestine speakers. Yes, each speaker has a right to speak, but why was the campus showing a bias toward pro-Israel speakers? Well, we had more Jewish than Muslim faculty and when inviting and/or voting on speakers, the lineup up speakers was biased in favor of that faculty makeup. The Jewish faculty weren’t necessarily trying to shut down Muslim/pro-Palestine speakers, they weren’t being malicious, they were trying to bring forward issues that the non-Jewish faculty weren’t particularly interested in focusing on.
The institution wasn’t sensitive to the how the validity of a whether an issue gets a forum shouldn’t rely on the makeup of the facility. And that’s not an easy problem to solve.
I think a lot of Jewish Americans are caught in this no-win situation where they build institutional power to try and address some of the problems with anti-Jewish bias, and then get punished because they got power before Muslims got power. And there at least some cases where it is malicious, where the institution develops an agenda on the issue.
There’s a dynamic around Bill Ackman who is a big democratic donor and donor to universities, but has an absolute hair trigger on anything that is anti-Israel. And if you have a billionaire in your active donor pool with that kind of hair trigger, avoiding adopting that hair trigger as an institutional bias is VERY hard to do. I have no doubt at all that if you had a comparably wealthy active donor with an anti-Palestine trigger, it would be VERY hard to avoid adopting that one.
schrodingers_cat
@Jay: Telling Jewish Americans to go back to Poland, qualify as antisemitism in your book?
Manyakitty
@Geminid: no, but I’ll definitely look her up based on this recommendation. Thank you!
Omnes Omnibus
BTW Happy Jewish American Heritage Month everyone.
Manyakitty
@lowtechcyclist: I made that choice a few months ago and it’s been delightful.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: have their views evolved?
schrodingers_cat
@Manyakitty: I am afraid to ask.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
I have seen claims of that, I have not seen photo’s or video’s, and I do not trust the neutrality of the claimants, nor do I trust that the people engaged in such acts are not trying for incitement.
The ADL and various other Jewish Orgs in Canada have declared that the term “colonist” or “colonialism” is antisemitic.
That has gone over really well with the Indigenous Nations.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: in general, lazy would be an improvement.
Jay
@schrodingers_cat:
Yes.
Does having an ADL person infiltrate a protest, shout out hate speech to provoke a Cop Riot count as antisemitism, in your book?
Suzanne
@Gretchen:
Yes, this.
I will also note that it underscores concerns about his age. I think the American generation that came right after WWII is understandably sympathetic to Israel, but also probably didn’t grow up knowing any Muslim people. (SuzMom told me that she didn’t meet any Arab people until she was an adult, and she worked in NYC.) So it feels like he just cares more for Israelis than Palestinians.
I think there is a temptation to see this conflict as complicated, but it genuinely is not.
Manyakitty
@Martin: fair enough. What a miserable situation all around.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: Before you move the goalposts too much, please remember that I said that I think that at least 95% of the protesters are sincere, but “that they would be better served by policing their ranks and avoiding antisemitism.” That’s it.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: oh no. That symbol is ruined forever, no matter which way it’s facing.
Manyakitty
@Nelle: what a lovely way to celebrate May!
Hoppie
Do you perhaps mean implied ? Sorry, not sorry.
Martin
@Omnes Omnibus: He’s not saying that those things aren’t antisemitic. I don’t think anyone is saying that there are no antisemitic statements being made here. Don’t put words in his mouth.
What he’s saying is the converse – that there are statements that are not antisemitic that are being called antisemitic. “Israel is a colonialist state” is not antisemitic – but it’s been identified several times by university administrators and politicians as antisemitic. And again, there are anti-muslim statements being made here, and those aren’t getting reported on either and yet nobody is calling for pro-Israel demonstrations to be shut down. Also, there’s been a lot of antisemitism directed at the pro-Palestine students who happen to be Jewish – by the pro-Israel demonstrators.
My point being, there is a lot of background hate speech on both sides that don’t automatically invalidate the demonstrations on either side. The pro-Israel organizer that shouted ‘kill the jews’ did that because he knew that would cause the police to roll on the protest, and that’s exactly what happened.
The problem is this rush to guilt by association that happens – which that pro-Israel organizer was relying on happening. And that’s not something that historically has worked out well for minority groups.
This doesn’t mean student groups shouldn’t police their ranks for that – they absolutely should. It also doesn’t mean that just because a person is on a campus that they’re a student. Less than 5% of the hate speech incidents we had during demonstrations were students. In fact it was rare for a non-student to join one of these protests and not do that.
Manyakitty
@Omnes Omnibus: #timing
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: 😬. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Ruckus
@lowtechcyclist:
We/I used to be able to block commenters. But for some reason we no longer can. He used to be the only person on any site I had blocked because he NEVER provides any useful comments. Not once. What he does do is complain and be a pain in the ass.
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin:
I understood what he is saying. The question “what is antisemitic these days?” reminds me of “‘What is truth?’ said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer.”
schrodingers_cat
@Ruckus: You have to keep redoing it. The filter resets itself after awhile. Also there is one commenter If you pie some who sometimes capitalizes their nym and sometimes doesn’t, the pie filter doesn’t work if there is a degeneracy.
Martin
@Omnes Omnibus: When you attack it in the way you do, it makes you look like Stefanik. Those were the very same kinds of attacks that university presidents were trying to fend off. Opposing West Bank settlements is routinely characterized as antisemitic by pretty much anyone in the GOP. A few universities have characterized these protests as antisemitic on their face. Can you at least acknowledge that some valid criticism are being mischaracterized in bad faith? That’s all Jay was trying to point out.
Lyrebird
@geg6:
THIS!!! Just because some univ presidents have their heads stuck up in other parts of their anatomy doesnt mean that there are zero issues, and there are people – as apparently
@Sister Golden Bear:
has seen in person – who come just to create chaos and don’t care if the students or their mission get hurt.
It sure seems like some commenters here don’t realize that some of the people out there in the tents also happen to be Jewish Americans. And I like to slam the NYT, but I gotta give them credit, they had a good article (I don’t know how I found it, bc usually I am blocked, no subscription) about Seders being held by protestors.
prostratedragon
@Martin: Many alums there also.
Jay
@Baud:
Bush I and Bush II were not that long ago.
Baud
@Jay:
I was using “we” to refer to decent folks.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
and as I have pointed out, “policing their ranks” isn’t easy,
and who’s definition of antisemitism? Bibi’s? The ADL? AIPAC? FAUX’s?
prostratedragon
@SoupCatcher: Gathering information like that would be a good student project.
Ruckus
@lowtechcyclist:
He complains, acts superior, tells us we have no idea, no plan and he knows everything. And yet – He’s never had any plan for anything. This is what he does, complains, acts superior, tells us we are wrong and have no answer. He’s as full of shit as it’s possible to be. Not long ago I could block him – and had. But currently I can’t do that on my computer. I’m not sure anyone else can either.
Jay
@Baud:
and that’s how BDS got banned in half of the US.
Martin
@Jay: There are some new dynamics developing. We used to make campus police available to help students get outsiders from their ranks, because it’s the only way to get the more determined outsiders to leave. But campuses are pulling police away from that kind of activity, which is a mistake.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@geg6:
I was able to short-circuit a rant about the students today by using this and info from Martin’s post on the previous thread (especially the part about Humboldt).
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Ruckus: I’m blocking him and a few other people on multiple platforms with no trouble. I believe the block list is held in a cookie. Maybe clearing B-J cookies would help?
WaterGirl
@Nelle: Thanks for everything you do. For real. When we win in November it will be because of people like you.
There is research to show that they do! Catch Mousebumples or H. E. Wolf, I’m sure they can give you more details on that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin: Read the whole thread.
WaterGirl
@Ruckus:
Are you saying the pie filter is no longer working for you?
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: @Ruckus:
I think there may be one browser that wipes the cookies when you do an update.
Phones don’t use cookies, but they use something similar, and I think the browser update may wipe those, also.
WaterGirl
@Martin:
Have to disagree on that one!
I don’t think Jay was originally clear at all in his meaning. Though it’s becoming more clear in the last few comments.
WaterGirl
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Clearing BJ cookies would wipe out everyone you have in the pie filter.
Cacti
@Gretchen: You’ve summed up all of my concerns perfectly.
My hope is that someone shakes the White House out of its slumber on this issue, or that a black swan event of some sort shakes things up.
Gloria DryGarden
@WaterGirl: i have no opinion on whether Biden understands the young people’s pov. I simply wanted Cacti to take his talking points to a place where, if he is at all accurate, he can share his ideas. Who knows?
I trust that the administration, Biden and his experts and advisors have a deeper and better grasp of how very complicated this situation is.
Yesterday’s thread about Gaza /Palestine/ Israel was so helpful for me. I read all of comments 1-198, and learned a lot. Perhaps there are 10 points of view? More?
(I’ve had arguments with friends IRL who say it’s simple, we shouldn’t give money to Israel BCS it’s not right what they’re doing…and when I say, oh, no, it’s way more complex, they argue back. I am not good at persistent arguing, so I shut up, when people are sure they are right.)
To me it looks like a web, like loosely knitted fabric, where if you pull one thread in the web, you get snags, and you totally shift the delicate balances. I don’t know how to get hostages back. I don’t know all the things at play.
I thought I went in yesterday to thank you for your summary at the end of the thread; maybe I didn’t. I loved it, and found it helpful. There’s heinous stuff coming from both sides. The history is difficult. No one’s talking about reparations to Palestinians who had land stolen. And both groups deserve to not be exterminated. You had a terrific bullet list; you covered most of it, and I agree w your bullet summary.
So, yes, I trust that Biden and his diplomatic experts/ teams are doing their best in a very upsetting and difficult complex situation.
Do you think it would help if someone came out at the press conferences to explain to the folks who think it’s simple, just a little about why it’s more complicated? (If it’s safe to say anything.) Or why divesting is/ is not useful.
What you said. There’s a balance, and he’s trying not to destabilize it.
We understand parts of it, but I sense we have no idea, really.
Gloria DryGarden
@Gloria DryGarden:
Out beyond horror and despair,
In lieu of swear words, I’ll just reiterate. It’s complex. It’s complicated.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@WaterGirl: Right. But his filter isn’t working. If he can’t add someone to the filter, a malformed cookie might be involved. Wiping the cookies would reset that and might allow him to reconstruct his list.
Gloria DryGarden
@WaterGirl:
You say it so much better than I
Jay
@Martin:
Yup,
but the really dumb thing here, is protest threads have followed the same template, with the same commenters here, with the same “points”, since Occupy.
Since then we have had Charlottesville, Portland, Seattle, BLM, St. John’s Church, etc.
Now Gaza.
SSDD.
I try not to do any “hot takes”, because “Copaganda” and “Admin Accounts” are all too often, self serving BS. I tend to wait a while to see what lies shake out, and as we are seeing with the Gaza protests, lot’s of lies out there.
Ksmiami
@Gloria DryGarden: also ffs, HAMAS is the Big Baddie in this. They attacked kids at a concert and they do not care how many gazans are killed- so what do you do when there’s no party to negotiate with, when nihilism is the goal?
Gloria DryGarden
@WaterGirl:
MAY 1, 2024 AT 8:33 PM
BINGO!
WHAT You said. Yup.
wjca
I understand this wasn’t addressed to me, but….
I suspect that even this level of statement will constitute pulling on one of those strings you mention. To accomplish anything around this issue is going to necessarily involve extensive, very off-the-record, discussions. Including not even admitting who you are talking to at all. Even speaking publicly about one of the (many) specific complexities can derail the whole discussion.
This is not to say that secret discussions will lead to anything positive. Just that lack those secret discussions pretty well guarantees that nothing positive will be achieved. (Except, of course, for those who consider victory on total war, i.e. genocide, is a positive outcome. Of which, unfortunately, there are some everywhere. But the Middle East seems to have more than its fair share.)
Jay
@Ksmiami:
They are both “big baddies”. Bibi was well informed by “everybody”, even his enemies, that a Hamas attck was coming, and the IDF and Shin Bet had watched enough footage and intercepted enough coms to know what, how, where and when Hamas would attack.
He pulled the IDF from the borders with Gaza and sent them to the West Bank to steal more land.
As we know from Human Rights groups, the IDF is doing exactly the same thing as Hamas, rapes, torture, summary executions, killing civilians and IDF units are dancing and singing about the Genocide of Gaza.
All Israel has ever had to do is trade land for peace. They have refused both for over 50 years.
They still want both.
Quadrillipede
This 👍
Gvg
@Martin: Israel is NOT an institution of the US.
We bail them out out of guilt. We did not prevent the holocaust and turned away Jewish refugees before the war who ended up dead in the camps. We had quotas that discriminated against Jews and we turned away that ship…it’s in our history books. Other Countries were even worse, but that is their problem. We are taught to feel responsible and never again to us means protecting Jews.
Morally we should also be looking after other persecuted but that lesson does not seem to have sunk in as much into our culture. Some people think that widely others run on simple rules without thought or understanding.
I have been disgusted by Israel for a long time. They became what their enemies were in many ways. I watched the enemies cause it by never reaching a truce or allowing a livable peace but it still is and was wrong.
The problem is that any discussion or allowance that Israel is doing something wrong, brings out real deranged antisemitics with eliminationist intents alongside and contaminating any rational discussion of Israel’s mistakes. We can still have discussions about other countries, groups or the GOP and their mistakes, but the insidious anti semantic conspiracy stuff is a special poison. After awhile I got cautious. A politician who cares would be even more avoidant I think.
Jay
@Gloria DryGarden:
@wjca:
Have you seen a Biden/Biden Administration press conference?
The MSM does not do complex, they just want soundbites.
Ksmiami
@Jay: Nah, every time a tentative future peace was on the line, both parties ultimately rejected it. And yes, Bibi and the current Israeli government is bad for Israel’s long term existence, but I’m not sure Palestinians have a vision for what kind of society they want either. So that just leaves an unending conflict.
Martin
@Gvg: Well before the UN had worked out a plan, Truman announced a recommendation for Britain to admit 100,000 displaced people to the region and his support for an Israeli state.
When the US commits to an idea it struggles to admit to there being any flaws with the reasoning. That’s true across presidents, except for Trump (there might be a little bit of a lesson there). Biden as an institutionalist is going to stick with the plan.
Gloria DryGarden
@WaterGirl: 90 days is a brutally long time, if you’re pregnant in AZ.
Gloria DryGarden
@wjca: I expect you’re right:
Jay
@Ksmiami:
Once it was down to just Israel and Palestine, (other than that Golan Heights/Syria issue and Lebanon and The Farms Issue),
The Palestinians always rejected the “peace offers” because it left them with unconnected Bantustans and no sovereignty.
Israel always rejected them because it was “too much land”.
Rabin and Arafat probably could have worked it out with a few more cycles of violence and talks, but Rabin was murdered by an Israeli terrorist who’s leader now sits in the Israeli “War Cabinet”.
Then, of course, following the trend of enabling Wahhabist nutjobs to undermine Nationalist/Socialist governments, the Shin Bet aided the formation of Hamas, to undermine Fatah.
No backsies.
The few Palestinians with a realistic plan for a future Palestine are either dead, ( at the hands of Israel, Hamas, Fatah, PLO, PLF, etc), or in jail forever in Israel.
Like many people my age, I used to be a strong supporter of Israel, but they have become their own worst monster.
There will be no Two State.
There will be no Single State.
There will be only genocide, and we know who wins that one and with who’s help.
Gloria DryGarden
@Martin: one can hardly say anything without stepping in it.
both sides have been doing wrong stuff, both sides have rights and have cause to be outraged. but if one says so, one might be called out as anti this, or anti that.
it’s so freaking delicate
and sometimes without any intention to direct hate speech, anti- (your group), it comes across as, or gets interpreted as anti-.
I guess I’ll research on Google as someone else suggested. Or talk to folks in the oppressed groups, both of them.
oppressed and oppressors, in each religious group in the region. It’s just a careful, delicate, complicated layering of situations, and histories. I’m pretty sure most everyone is scared out of their minds.
brantl
@SuzieC: Ouch, for Bannon.
brantl
@Cacti: WHO LIKES PIE?
YY_Sima Qian
Probably a dead thread, but this seems relevant to some of the discussion here:
While the bill was pushed the hardest by GOPers, a large majority of Dems in the House voted “Yea”. Not Jerry Nadler, though.
Cacti
@brantl: Your mother.
brantl
@Baud: Sweden, Norway, Finland, Great Britain, France, those aren’t socialist countries? It sounds like somebody’s trying to shift the definition. Siri suggests Laos, China, Cuba and Viet Nam.
brantl
@Omnes Omnibus: A lot of people are taking the phrase “from the river to the sea”, when Palestinians say it, to be anti-semitic, but many of those same people don’t take it as anti-palestinian when Israelis use it to descibe their hopes for hegemony in the region; fair is fair, and that isn’t.