Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Mediocre white men think RFK Jr’s pathetic midlife crisis is inspirational. The bar is set so low for them, it’s subterranean.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

Republicans do not trust women.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

They want us to be overwhelmed and exhausted. Focus. Resist. Oppose.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

If America since Jan 2025 hasn’t broken your heart, you haven’t loved her enough.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

The party of Reagan has become the party of Putin.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

American history and black history cannot be separated.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

Let there be snark.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Trump’s NY Criminal Trial, Day 22 (Jury Instructions)

Trump’s NY Criminal Trial, Day 22 (Jury Instructions)

by | 244 Comments

This post is in: 

It’s Day 22 of the trial.

Jury Instructions.  And then, it seems, jury deliberation will begin!

Not much more to say about today than that, at least until we begin to hear what the instructions are.  But we are going to learn a lot today about what the jury can and cannot consider.

But first, can we talk about yesterday?

I only managed to listen to the 30-minute Lawfare podcast about yesterday’s proceedings.  Interestingly enough, they graded the defense – everyone but Ben Wittes gave the defense a B-, and Ben gave the defense a B+ – but they did not give a letter grade to the prosecution.  They thought the first 90 minutes were brilliant, and in fact thought that any given 15 minutes were brilliant, but they were super cranky about how long the whole thing was.

Anna Bower reminded everyone that you can’t know what’s going on in any juror’s head.  She mentioned one juror that “always looks bored” and then added “but that’s just his face”.  I got a laugh out of that!

Josh Kovensky (TPM)   live blogging

Tyler McBrien (Lawfare) on twitter

Anna Bower (Lawfare) on twitter

Adam Klasfeld on twitter

 

AP Live blogging

Last day for awesome guy who carries this sign.

Trump’s NY Criminal Trial

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

244Comments

  1. 1.

    zhena gogolia

    This parsing of the jury’s faces reminds me of me trying to figure out which students are engaged, based on their faces. It’s a mug’s game. I’m almost always wrong.

    ETA: At least, a bored face doesn’t necessarily mean they’re bored.

  3. 3.

    ArchTeryx

    I kind of agree with the base odds that it’s 50% he’s found guilty, 49.9% a hung jury (all it takes is one MAGA) and 0.1% he’s found innocent. (That’d take an entire jury of MAGAs and this is The City, not rural Alabama).

  5. 5.

    LAO

    My first boss, as a criminal defense attorney, used to call the parsing of jurors during deliberations “jury masturbation.”  Always struck me as funny.

    Also, hands down the WORST part of trial is jury deliberations. It’s nauseating.

  6. 6.

    TBone

    In the Hit Dogs Holler dept. 😆

    The Five’s Jeanine Pirro attacked Robert De Niro for daring to publicly state his negative opinion on her Dear Leader.
    Pirro, with her silver spoon that she uses as a sipping straw between commercial breaks, seems to believe the Academy Award winning actor is a loser because he didn’t put his name on a building.

    Not posting her commentary here, read at link if so inclined. Rebuttal:

    De Niro and his partners launched the Tribeca Film Festival to help revitalize New York after 9/11. It’s brought in hundreds of millions of dollars to the city since, dear ol’ Wino PIrro.

    DeNiro didn’t whine out a bunch of lies, or brag about his building being the tallest after 9/11.  Just sayin’

    https://crooksandliars.com/2024/05/box-o-wine-pirro-flips-out-over-de-niro

  7. 7.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @ArchTeryx: I don’t think the odds of a hung jury are anywhere near that high.  It doesn’t mean it won’t happen, but this case isn’t a coin toss and I have more respect for juries than many others appear to have.

  11. 11.

    TBone

    @LAO: I passed on lunch and went home to eat when I was on jury duty.  I am always an outlier, it seems.  I feel grateful to be accepted here anyhow.

  12. 12.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @LAO: I remember sitting in a courtroom wait for a jury to come back* and having the judge say that this one of his favorite parts of a trial.  I thought to myself that he had been on the bench long enough to have forgotten what is was like on at the parties’ tables.

    *FWIW I lost.

  14. 14.

    Another Scott

    @Omnes Omnibus: +1

    They know history is watching.  They will do their best, even as they want to get back to their lives.

    We’re off the map, but Google tells me that something like 95% of cases like this result in convictions.  That sounds about right to me.

    Larry Sabato was on C-Span radio this AM as I was flipping channels.  He said, after earlier cautioning everyone that it’s May and it’s too early and polls have giant margins of error, that he thought that a conviction would cause a 1-2% drop in TIFG’s support.  I think he’s right about the first part, but wrong about the second.  A conviction (the first of many) is/are going to hurt TIFG a lot among the normies.  People don’t like voting for losers.  Being a convicted felon is pretty much a synonym for being a loser.

    We’ll know soon enough.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  16. 16.

    Ohio Mom

    @LAO: Is the food that good? Or is it just a sense of, “I’m not getting paid enough for this, I’m squeezing every bit of value out of the court system?”

    I was only called for jury duty once and made it to not-called-upon alternate.

  17. 17.

    LAO

    @TBone: lol, no doubt. To clarify, I’ve never seen a jury come back prior to lunch. It was like clockwork, the note declaring a verdict was reached would magically appear at 2:15 pm. Usually, the 2d or 3d day of deliberations.

  18. 18.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: I always wonder if attorneys might have some sort of ritual thing they do while a jury is deliberating, to keep themselves calm and to keep the client calm.

    Trump will be a real treat to deal with. //

  19. 19.

    catclub

    @Another Scott: but Google tells me that something like 95% of cases like this result in convictions. That sounds about right to me.

     

    Any normal defendant would have pleaded out. That makes conviction even more probable.

  20. 20.

    trollhattan

    @TBone:

    See also, Megyn Kelly opining on the US Women’s National Soccer Team.

    It’s like asking my fourth-favorite koi his opinion on Cessnas.

  22. 22.

    LAO

     

    @Ohio Mom: In New York County, jurors are give a menu list (representing different foods and restaurants) and the court clerk calls in the orders. It’s good food! It helps prevent any unintentional contact between the trial participants and jurors.

  24. 24.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ohio Mom: It’s free.  It’s like the answer to the the question “What is the best kind of beer?’  “Free beer.”

  25. 25.

    ArchTeryx

    @Omnes Omnibus: The case isn’t a coin toss but how the jury votes may have little to do with the actual evidence and more to do with their political affiliation. NOBODY, but NOBODY, doesn’t have an opinion on Hair Furor at this point. I did not envy the lawyers assigned to do voir dire on THIS jury pool. One Staten Island or Long Island juror that lied on their questionnaire and bang, hung jury. The prosecution made an excellent case. But if they didn’t voir dire EVERY potential MAGAt out of the jury pool, a hung jury is a virtual guarantee. That’s why I agree with it being even odds. The outcome was decided before opening statements.

  27. 27.

    TBone

    @Ohio Mom: at our Court of Common Pleas in DelCo, there exists a basement cafeteria.  Lunch menus from said cafeteria are provided to jurors.  Knowing the nepotist cafeteria worker syndrome that existed in DelCo at that time, I went right on home to eat.

  31. 31.

    LAO

    @Omnes Omnibus: that judge is a monster! I can’t even watch an unrelated jury verdict, ie if I were appearing before a judge, who had a jury out, I would leave the courtroom if the jury reached a verdict. Makes me sick to my stomach.

    Although, I may be able to handle this case.

  32. 32.

    Hoodie

    @Omnes Omnibus: I tend to agree.  Trump’s defense is essentially gaslighting, e.g., “all that stuff we were doing looked like a conspiracy to hide the payments but it was really nothing and, another thing, you’re crazy if you believe someone like the GLOAT Michael Cohen (even though he’d have a hard time beating the defendant in that compartment, what he says is largely corroborated by other evidence, and you really don’t have to believe him to find Trump guilty).”  They didn’t present anything of substance as evidence of an alternative explanation for the payment because, of course, such evidence doesn’t exist.  I don’t think a jury of NYers will fall for that, but there is always the possibility of an oddball on any given jury.

  35. 35.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: i have been on two juries.  The federal court took us to the local mom and pop diner for lunch every day.

    The other case fed us boring sandwiches like you would get if you went to a lame all-day seminar.

    Nothing to write home about!

  36. 36.

    WaterGirl

    I assume they will release written jury instructions, but not until the judge has completed reading them to the jury?  Yes?  No?

  37. 37.

    trollhattan

    @Another Scott:

    Today is election day in South Africa and I’ve been listening to interviews of queued voters, who seem to be majority “I’ll choose when I’m in there” category. How do you poll that?

    ANC has become so spectacularly corrupt there’s an opportunity for an opposing party to win, while no party seems likely to get a simple majority. Confess I had no idea how bad conditions had become there.

    One possible nasty outcome is the return of Jacob Zuma, running for a competing party and not ANC. He’s absolutely the last thing that beleaguered nation deserves.

  38. 38.

    Another Scott

    Long RParloff (Lawfare) thread (presently at 25 parts).

    Roger Parloff
    @rparloff
    3h

    Was D.A. Bragg Right to Bring the New York Charges Against Trump?
    (Answer: Yes) …
    1/~20
    bit.ly/453GCIC

    Was D.A. Bragg Right to Bring the New York Charges Against Trump?
    Consider the “Al Capone factor”: Should a prosecutor let an elusive kingpin go scot-free, or indict him for the crimes he can prove?

    lawfaremedia.org
    May 29, 2024 · 11:31 AM UTC

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  41. 41.

    TBone

    Is Rump required to be in attendance today?  I haven’t yet had time to get up to speed.  Too busy farting around 😆

    Hubby is cocksure we will see a guilty verdict today.

    He just asked me if I was sure I’d marked our checkbook ledger when I paid haul away guy. “LEGAL FEES!” says I !

  42. 42.

    catclub

    @LAO: But are there dietary warnings like: “This meal will put you to sleep for hours!  Just get a salad.”

  43. 43.

    Almost Retired

    @LAO:  Where is the jury pool drawn from in NY County in a criminal case ?  Just Manhattan, I would assume?  Or could there be jurors from other boroughs/counties?

  44. 44.

    LAO

    @catclub: there should be. But seriously, it’s why courtrooms are so cold. Keeps jurors awake. Doesn’t always work but, it’s why.

  46. 46.

    smith

    @ArchTeryx: One Staten Island or Long Island juror that lied on their questionnaire and bang, hung jury.

    All the jurors in this trial are residents of Manhattan.

    One thing that encourages me is that for the first E. Jean Carroll trial there was one known MAGA on the jury, and they still returned a unanimous verdict.

  50. 50.

    Almost Retired

    @LAO: Thanks.  In retrospect Trump should have opened a branch office on Staten Island and done all his crimin’ there.

  51. 51.

    TBone

    TPM

    Merchan says that for falsifying business records, the DA must have shown that Trump either did it himself, or “solicited, requested, commanded, importuned, or intentionally aided” another person who did it, and did so “with the state of mind required to engage in that offense.”

    If jurors find that Trump did so, then the “extent of his participation” is irrelevant — any finding of involvement is enough for a conviction.

  56. 56.

    ArchTeryx

    @Omnes Omnibus: No problem, considering how little you seem to know about how the actual jury system works. I’ve been following you and Cacti and it seems that’s the hill you want to die on.

    It ultimately doesn’t matter. We’ll see who’s right in the end.

  57. 57.

    Another Scott

    @ArchTeryx: @LAO:

    Made me look.

    CriminalDefenseLawyer.com:

    Lying on a Juror Questionnaire

    All potential jurors are required to complete juror questionnaires containing questions on topics such as the person’s education, employment, criminal history, any disabilities that may require accommodation or would prevent the person from serving on a jury, whether the person works in or is related to someone who works in law enforcement, and whether the person owns or uses firearms.

    You might think, or others might suggest, that lying on your questionnaire might help you get out of jury duty. Someone might recommend that you claim on your questionnaire that you oppose the jury system, lie about your life circumstances, or make false statements about your employment or current residence. These are not good suggestions. Making false statements in a jury questionnaire actually can be the basis for a charge of perjury, a felony crime.

    Whoops!

    Yeah, people are generally going to take the process seriously. There are big potential consequences for not doing so.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  58. 58.

    Cacti

    @Omnes Omnibus:  In capital murder cases, juries have gotten it wrong in about one out of every 10 cases (that we know of).

    If there was an airline that crashed one out of every 10 flights, would you find it worthy of respect?

  59. 59.

    LAO

    @WaterGirl: It usually does. I once had a jury out 6 days. The actual trial was 2 and 1/2 days.
    The longer the jury’s out, the worse I felt.

  60. 60.

    ArchTeryx

    @smith: Now THAT is something I did not know, and that’s encouraging. I drew my 50/50 number off of a consensus off Lawyers, Guns, and Money. They’re normally professional doomers, but at least some lawyers chiming in seemed to give it some actual thought.

    Apparently a single MAGAt can be shouted down enough to vote correctly. We’ll see if that’s the case this time, or even needs to be.

  62. 62.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    According to the usual legal commentators I listen to, especially longtime Manhattan prosecutor Karen Friedman-Agnifolo, in all likelihood they’ll probably be deliberating until at least Friday and very possibly into early next week, and that’s not a bad sign. She feels this jury will take their duties seriously and examine each of the 41 charges and the supporting evidence one by one. Also the process of requesting evidence for review is apparently a slow and antiquated one.

  63. 63.

    ArchTeryx

    @Another Scott: That’s never stopped MAGAts before. They’ll happily take a bullet for Dear Leader, as we saw all too well on January 6th.

    Still, the other post saying ALL the jurors came from Manhattan is encouraging. Hopefully the voir dire folks did their homework and made sure to do background checks on all of ’em to make sure they DIDN’T lie on their questionaires.

  64. 64.

    TBone

    TPM

    For this to be a felony, jurors have to find that Trump faked the records with intent to commit another crime.

    Merchan describes the three crimes: conspiracy to promote a candidate in an election by “unlawful means,” falsification of additional business records, or violation of tax laws.

    The judge says that jurors do not have to be unanimous on which second crime there was an intent to commit.

  65. 65.

    LAO

    @Cacti: No system is perfect because humans aren’t perfect. I’m personally opposed to the death penalty for many reasons, including the fact juries do err and do make mistakes.
    But, it’s been my observation that a significant number of those wrongful convictions, known or unknown, are directly related to either police misconduct or prosecutorial misconduct. I don’t think that is an issue here.

    ETA corrected

  66. 66.

    ArchTeryx

    @Cacti: And lawyers came up with the 50/50 odds thing. I’m not a lawyer, I’m a scientist. But I also understand the jury system well. I served on one. It wasn’t a top-shelf case like this, but it taught me a lot of ugly realities.

  70. 70.

    Another Scott

    @ArchTeryx: MAGA doesn’t have too good a record in actual courts.

    E.g. APNews.com (from January):

    More than 1,230 people have been charged with federal crimes in the riot, ranging from misdemeanor offenses like trespassing to felonies like assaulting police officers and seditious conspiracy. Roughly 730 people have pleaded guilty to charges, while another roughly 170 have been convicted of at least one charge at a trial decided by a judge or a jury, according to an Associated Press database.

    Only two defendants have been acquitted of all charges, and those were trials decided by a judge rather than a jury.

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  71. 71.

    TBone

    TPM

    For the third step-up charge, Merchan instructs the jury that they can consider any “tax return statement or document that is fraudulent or false as to any material matter.”

    “Under these federal, state, and local laws, such conduct is unlawful even if it does not result in underpayment of taxes,” he says. This refers to the taxes that the Trump Org paid — overpaid — in reimbursing Cohen to “gross up” his payment.

  72. 72.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Cacti: One major problem with capital murder juries is that they all have to be death qualified.  It taints the pool.  Capital murder trials are also a vanishingly (not vanishingly enough) small percentage of the jury trials.  My experience with jury trials is that they generally get it right. Enough so that I don’t accept the nearly 50/50 odds that people were suggesting.

  73. 73.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    From another commenter to you:

    No problem, considering how little you seem to know about how the actual jury system works. I’ve been following you and Cacti and it seems that’s the hill you want to die on.

    That is a set of words I would never have expected to see!  Wow.

  74. 74.

    Baud

    I wouldn’t predict a jury any more than I would predict an election, especially for a trial I have barely been following closely.

  76. 76.

    Cacti

    @ArchTeryx:

    As I’ve said previously to Kay (another lawyer), there are basically two types of people who enter the legal profession.  Those who become a lawyer because the believe in the system, and those who become one because they don’t.

    Omnes has always struck me as being in group 1.  I have always been in group 2.

  77. 77.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @WaterGirl: In all likelihood they will. Remember the jurors have to sift through five weeks of evidence. See my comment at #62.

    The one jury I sat on was a murder trial. The defense lawyer took us a little by surprise by starting his defense with “my client did it.” But he focused us on the question of whether it was first or second degree, and that was in fact a sticking point that caused us hours of deliberation on a pretty much open and shut case.

    Edit: Re the death penalty discussion, that was not on the table. But what we didn’t know till after coming to a verdict, was that a life sentence was mandatory for first degree. That would unquestionably have affected the deliberations and possibly the verdict.

  78. 78.

    Harrison Wesley

    I’ve served on two juries, one Philly and one Federal (accident and civil rights violation, respectively).  I was lucky to only be an alternate for the one criminal case I got called up for – guy was very obviously guilty, but he was such a sad sack I would have asked for some sort of clemency, if a juror was permitted to do such a thing.

  79. 79.

    Josie

    @WaterGirl: I can only deduce that the commenter does not read the blog on a regular basis, at least not the comments. If I had a question about trials, juries, etc., Omnes would be the one I would ask.

  80. 80.

    TBone

    @Cacti: I worked for many, many attorneys of all stripes.  There is a distinct paucity of membership in your group #2 in my experience.

  82. 82.

    ArchTeryx

    @WaterGirl: Dude’s a lawyer and faced a lot of juries. It doesn’t mean he’s Nostradamus. I’ve also seen the process from the inside, and while Twelve Angry Men is hardly a documentary, it’s not a bad approximation for what goes on in a deliberation room in a controversial case.

    He puts a lot of faith in a system I think is tainted top to bottom, and if he wants to flash the J.D. after his name, I’ll happily flash the PhD after mine. It’s about equal qualification for knowing what THIS jury is going to do.

    I just hope the prosecution knew what they were doing in jury selection.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Josie: If I had a question about trials, juries, etc., Omnes would be the one I would ask.

    It’s too early in the day to be that drunk.

  84. 84.

    Baud

    @Cacti:

    Didn’t realize you were lawyer.

    Anyway, your framing is too binary.  Respect for the legal system is not an on/off switch. It’s a continuum. And disrespect doesn’t equate to automatic pessimism in particular cases.

    I don’t trust or respect this Supreme Court, and expect us to lose a lot there, but we don’t lose every case.

  85. 85.

    Wapiti

    @Cacti: But… are the juries more likely to find an innocent person “guilty”, or more likely to find a guilty person “innocent”?

  87. 87.

    catclub

    @Cacti: If there was an airline that crashed one out of every 10 flights, would you find it worthy of respect?

     

    If there was a baseball player who only got a hit 9 out of ten at bats, would you fire him?

  89. 89.

    ArchTeryx

    @Baud: I don’t think it’s the legal system per se as the jury system. That’s been far too easily corruptable from the outset. Jury nullification is a real thing and is a double edged sword, and TFG is far from above threatening and/or paying off jurors. All it takes is one, and that’s why the pot of lawyers I sort-of follow (when they aren’t off on doomerism jags, which is rare) gave it a 50/50 shot of hung jury. TFG won’t be aquitted, but an actual guilty verdict depends on one single thing.

  91. 91.

    catclub

    @Wapiti: good question!

    My understanding is that most of the time, the DA has far more resources than the defendant and in those cases could get a conviction of an innocent person.

    In the cases where the defense has far more resources than the DA…. the opposite.

  92. 92.

    ArchTeryx

    @Omnes Omnibus: When it comes to TFG I’m just plain pessimistic. Not quite as pessimistic as the Eeyore doomers at LGM, but still pessimistic.

    Dude’s been escaping consequences his whole life, and until he’s sitting in a jail cell not much’ll convince me otherwise. Right now, he’s sitting at even odds to win the presidency again, and that’s far more terrifying to me than whatever the jury comes out with.

  93. 93.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Baud:

    @Cacti:

    Didn’t realize you were lawyer.

    Made me think of this:

    Lucille: I didn’t know you were a lawyer. You’re awfully shy for a lawyer.

    Groucho: You bet I’m shy, I’m a shyster lawyer.

    –Monkey Business

  94. 94.

    Chris Johnson

    An important thing to know about MAGAs hanging a jury is that they are authoritarian followers. That does not automatically mean the biggest apparent authority is going to remain Trump. Another good point is that they are peculiarly weak to getting bullied by their peers, and it’s almost categorically true that the majority of the jury is not going to be stealth MAGAs: that’s kind of the point, they’re not supposed to be MAGAs OR moonbats. They’re ‘peers’.

    According to Harry Litman the conclusions were a disaster for the Trump side, with the last pro-Trump witness disgracing himself and acting like a mobster and getting scolded by the judge, and with the prosecution twisting the claim of ‘Cohen is a lying cheat and asshole!’ to become ‘That’s why TRUMP wanted him, we didn’t go to the witness store and pick him out. He’s there because Trump wanted specifically him, and yet they also were looking to play him’. Wild stuff.

    I agree with Omnes. There are no certainties but there is no WAY it’s a coin flip. Trump’s side has fucked up, again and again, and that matters.

  95. 95.

    Almost Retired

    @LAO:  I’m curious about the closing argument sequence in NY County – with the defense going first instead of being the meat in a prosecution sandwich.  Is that statewide?  In your opinion does this favor one side or the other?

    Thanks for letting us pepper you with questions.  Your local knowledge is invaluable.  Can we get you into hair and makeup and on TV to replace some of these useless cable pundits?

  96. 96.

    schrodingers_cat

    Pre Doomers are the worst. They start doom mongering before the fact. I don’t move much in RW spaces but our side seems to have a lot of them. They make me tired

    I have been frequenting liberal Indian Twitter Spaces for election coverage and there is a contingent spreading doom about how BJP is going to pull a Jan 6th. The parties in the opposition India Alliance are preparing for many eventualities and there are a lot of checks and balances from the booth (precinct) level onward. But it has zero effect on pre-doomers.

  97. 97.

    Chris Johnson

    @ArchTeryx: I don’t believe those odds for a second, either. Dude lost once, while in office. Show me the accounts of whoever is claiming that one before I’ll listen to ‘people are saying’. I would want to see who is paying them, because their doomer take is worth lots of cash money to our enemies.

  98. 98.

    TBone

    @Cacti: maybe your focus is on a narrow splice cross section and fails to take into account the spectacular diversity inherent in our system of law and courts.  Also, I am fucking funny. Jabroni.

  100. 100.

    LAO

    @Almost Retired: I like the federal system, somewhat more but, in reality I never questioned how it’s done in NYS because to me, that’s the norm. I hate not getting the last word but neither system allows for that so it is what it is.

    And trust me, nobody wants to see me on TV. It takes me too much effort to maintain a poker face.

    ETA: I never answered the question! It is the norm state wide. And I think both systems favor the state/government.

  101. 101.

    grubert

    @ArchTeryx: a good scientist would want experimental data to be verified by other scientists.. replicate the results, before accepting them.

    Your singular jury experience is insufficient.

  103. 103.

    topclimber

    @ArchTeryx: A single case of personal service on a jury…kind of thin as scientific evidence goes.

    ETA: Grubert got there first.

  106. 106.

    ArchTeryx

    @grubert: @topclimber: Point there. It’s just an experience many people avoid. I didn’t, literally because at that time of my life, I was poor and jobless, and had nothing better to do.

    Nowadays I can’t replicate it because of Crohn’s Disease. It wouldn’t do to have to recess the court 8-20 times a day so I could use the bathroom, so that gets me booted out of most jury pools right there.

  108. 108.

    Dangerman

    Is cheesecake an acceptable form of cake for conviction? I love cheesecake. Fresh berries and whipped cream on top

    I think cutting the cheesecake for Trump seems appropriate.

  110. 110.

    rikyrah

    I love these Black in the era of Reagan stories.

     

    nope, won’t beg silly ass progressives for votes (@reesetheone1) posted at 11:33 AM on Tue, May 28, 2024:

     

    He was worse than Trump, and no one can tell me otherwise. How my folks managed to raise four kids and buy rental income property and a house in a 90% white suburb by July 1988 is beyond me. Black Boomers are tougher mentally than subsequent generations. (https://x.com/reesetheone1/status/1795493662262222862?t=ffsgoQYadGxfQZFx_yFSdg&s=03)

  114. 114.

    rikyrah

    He brought the charts for this thread:

     

    nope, won’t beg silly ass progressives for votes (@reesetheone1) posted at 11:38 AM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
    That unemployment  from  82 through mid 83 man!

    UNREAL.

    This was higher than black great recession unemployment  and covid Black unemployment…. with inflation as high as it was in 2022.

    Did I mention the crack cocaine explosion?? https://t.co/xfmhKFi5Ci
    (https://x.com/reesetheone1/status/1795494814042992649?t=NVJK0vquN1UMD64vfMBjlA&s=03)

  115. 115.

    ArchTeryx

    I will say one thing for the record before retreating back into my lair to lurk again. I very much want to be proven wrong. Hell, if the jury votes guilty and he gets a jail sentence, I’ll be popping a champaigne cork. I’m not a pre-doomer. More just seen how the system reacts to TFG. The guy just keeps escaping justice, and even a “jury of his peers” doesn’t seem to know WTF to do with him so much of the time.

    The fact he’s got a passel of judges in his pocket doesn’t help, though at least in this case, it’s not enough to save him.

  116. 116.

    rikyrah

    UH HUH

    UH HUH

     

    nope, won’t beg silly ass progressives for votes (@reesetheone1) posted at 11:43 AM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
    Most older black folks will spend a ton of time in church  if Trump wins again…. while  some  their kids and grand kids  will chase White progressives around to protest and resist… only to see them bail when Trump drop the hammer on their asses.

    2025 WILL NOT be 2017-18 2.0
    (https://x.com/reesetheone1/status/1795496064847315339?t=dTu6hXciVr5LuXY3Y4nSmQ&s=03)

  118. 118.

    smith

    @BretH: I am so hoping Trudeau updates that cartoon in honor of the occasion, with as many “Guiltys!” as we can get.

  121. 121.

    ArchTeryx

    @topclimber: You sure got that right. I’m amazed I made it onto that jury pool at all. Prosecutors do not like people who are of the same economic class as poor defendants. But I’m white, male, and have a Ph.D. after my name, so I skated past voir dire. They expected I’d automatically vote a black man guilty of whatever they were charged with. They were wrong.

    I also don’t bully easily. I’m anti-authoritarian to the inner core.

  122. 122.

    rikyrah

    Philadelphia, Mississippi.

    Philadelphia, Mississippi.

    Slow down and see clearly (@are_selfies) posted at 7:01 AM on Wed, May 29, 2024:

     

    White identity politics is enduringly powerful…and its most powerful rendering is how Reagan and Trump both used it–by arguing that all the social, legal, and economic progress made by women and minorities was a mistake. That’s what Make America Great Again actually means. (https://x.com/are_selfies/status/1795787567348015518?t=nnm3moWAUVrIofk2JDc0DQ&s=03)

  126. 126.

    Cacti

    @topclimber:  The criminal court system as presently constituted is designed to chew up and spit out accused persons with maximum possible efficiency.  Whatever the merits/flaws of the jury system, only about 5 to 10 percent of those cases will ever go to trial.

    A large reason for that is because the system discourages you in every way it can from exercising that right.

  129. 129.

    narya

    @rikyrah: I sometimes feel like a lone voice in the wilderness about the disaster that was Reagan (though Charles Pierce also traces many of our current ills back to him).

  130. 130.

    rikyrah

    Yes, keep an eye on Louisiana. This is the petri dish for Project 2025. It’s what the GOP wants do to nationally.

     

    Jasmine Crockett’s Anger Translator (@Needle_of_Arya) posted at 6:43 AM on Wed, May 29, 2024:
    Louisiana had its “very last chance” election in 2023, and if the new changes to the state constitution are pushed through, the state will go through an extended dark era not unlike the century of segregation
    (https://x.com/Needle_of_Arya/status/1795782952946729391?t=ND8T1kmNdwF1x5FvfujYew&s=03)

  131. 131.

    sab

    @rikyrah: Whenever Stuart Stevens expresses his surprise about how awful the Republicans have  become I remind myself that Reagan began his campaign at Philadelphia Mississippi and he is a native Mississippian.

    Reagan deliberately broke with the whole party of Lincoln thing

    ETA Stu not Reagan being from MS

  132. 132.

    Elizabelle

    Pandas are coming back to DC!!  A male and female, both 2 years old.  Later this year.  Male is a descendant of earlier DC pandas.  💕🐼🐼💕

  134. 134.

    TBone

    @narya: I’ve told my “lone protester” story about Raygun here several times.  He is gone, but not forgotten.  May he rot in peace.

  135. 135.

    rikyrah

    I absolutely love how people won’t keep their foot off of his neck. He needs to consistently be reminded:

     

    NOBODY HAS FORGOTTEN YOUR ANTICS FROM 2016.

     

     

    Eddie S. Glaude Jr. (@esglaude) posted at 7:23 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
    We have to become better people.

    Portia  McGonagal (@PortiaMcGonagal) posted at 9:09 AM on Wed, May 29, 2024:
    Do you mean like looking beyond personal clout chasing and white affirmation seeking and focusing on long term realities like SCOTUS which will impact the country generationally? Ya know, like 2016?
    (https://x.com/PortiaMcGonagal/status/1795819863254221107?t=u-U_1KCV3fIouNnduzXGmA&s=03)

  138. 138.

    rikyrah

    U. of C. withholds degrees of four seniors who participated in pro-Palestinian encampment

    The University of Chicago was Youssef Hasweh’s dream school. It’s why the senior chose to work at its admissions office. He guided campus tours, answered phones for prospective students and spoke on admissions panels. The 22-year-old was set to graduate Saturday.

    But just hours after he completed his final exams Friday, Hasweh received an email informing him that his degree would be withheld pending a school disciplinary process related to his involvement with the university’s pro-Palestinian encampment. Three other seniors also received an email from the university, according to student group UChicago United for Palestine.

    “I loved this university,” Hasweh said. “But this year made my UChicago dream a nightmare.”

    A U. of C. spokesman said the school could not comment on individual student disciplinary matters, but noted that the process is standard practice after a formal complaint is reviewed by the university’s Disciplinary Committee.
    …………………………..

    The four students are still able to participate in graduation and other end-of-year events, and their degrees can be later conferred depending on the resolution of the disciplinary process. But if the committee finds that certain policies have been violated, their degrees could be denied, despite four years of coursework and tuition.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/05/29/u-of-c-withholds-degrees-of-four-seniors-who-participated-in-pro-palestinian-encampment/?lctg=F5D37479F5E0448F5572B5347B&utm_email=F5D37479F5E0448F5572B5347B&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=https%3a%2f%2fwww.chicagotribune.com%2f2024%2f05%2f29%2fu-of-c-withholds-degrees-of-four-seniors-who-participated-in-pro-palestinian-encampment%2f&utm_campaign=CT-Breaking-News&utm_content=alert

  140. 140.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @narya:

    I sometimes feel like a lone voice in the wilderness about the disaster that was Reagan (though Charles Pierce also traces many of our current ills back to him).

    Tons of the online left at least, has been preaching this for a long time.  The election of Reagan set this country on a path that I fear it’ll never recover from.

    It’s only gotten worse as so much of Reagan’s neoliberal economic bullshit has become mainstreamed and adopted by a fair number of Dems.

    From a recent, and very cogent, diary at Dkos:

    The America we live in now is totally subject to free markets. The gains go to the richest, and everyone else gets the crumbs off the top table, or, gets poorer.

    The typical American’s economic security is so precarious that 56% of Americans cannot pay for a $1000 emergency bill from their savings. Facing such a bill, those Americans are forced to seek loans, and, often, that means loans with high interest rates such as title loans. It is easy for someone in such a precarious position to go from needing to pay $1000 to owing thousands in dollars thanks to the absence of social security nets.

    Since the Reagan Administration, this has been seen as the price of entry into the American Dream. We have accepted a free-market, neoliberal philosophy as normal. Where the greatest economy was founded on the idea that society had to be built to serve all, that we exist as a community, the neoliberal, market-oriented worldview places individual freedom and unfettered capitalism at the heart of its project.

    When we see a homeless person, we are taught to believe that that person must have done something wrong, we no longer ask how society has failed that person.

    This is the triumph of the Reaganite project. We have been taught to believe that this is the American way, and yet, until the Reagan Administration, few thought that it was! America then had a similar economic system to the Scandinavian economies.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/22/2213332/-The-End-of-the-American-Dream

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/1/22/2218817/-America-is-at-a-Crossroads

    Fuck Reagan.

  142. 142.

    coin operated

    @rikyrah:

    But if the committee finds that certain policies have been violated, their degrees could be denied, despite four years of coursework and tuition.

    Now that’s some world-class bullshit right there.

  143. 143.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @rikyrah: Ask any of these fraudulent white “progressives” how a bill becomes a law. If they can’t respond to that question coherently, that’s when you know they’re not to be taken seriously. When shit gets real, these performative clowns get quiet, put down their protest signs, and vanish into their whiteness. Black people never had that option.

  145. 145.

    LAO

    @WaterGirl: It did not. My first federal trial. I was young and idealistic, it was crushing.
    It was such a bs case. Low sentence but the collateral consequences of a felony conviction were what we tried to avoid. The kid was guilty but it cost him his union membership. (He got the union membership after his arrest).

  146. 146.

    Jeffro

    I have to say, the RWNJ triggers “headlines” over on Fox News dot com right now are hysterical in all senses of the word.

  147. 147.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: a Biden loss would be very frustrating. We have a chance to finally break Reaganism’s back

    Just the thought of being able to put our orange national nightmare behind us after eight loooooooong years should be enough to motivate a few folks, too.

    “Since the GOP couldn’t bring itself to toss trump on the ash heap of American history after J6…we will” – Dem ad, Sept 2024

  148. 148.

    oldgold

    @LAO:”It’s been my observation that a significant number of those wrongful convictions, known or unknown, are directly related to either police misconduct or prosecutorial misconduct. ”

    In this country, I think the leading cause of jury malfeasance is racism.

    In this case prosecutorial misconduct, police misconduct and/ or racism is not at play. What I worry about is that Trump or one of his miscreants has gotten to a juror. He cheats and tries to game everything.  What makes anyone think he would not try to cheat in a matter that may, if he loses, result in prison time?

  150. 150.

    WaterGirl

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

     In all likelihood they will.

    Sorry, that was a poorly worded reply to LAO. I was questioning whether LAO would hang out in a hallway by herself waiting for the verdict – even if it took hours and hours, or days for them to come to a verdict.

  151. 151.

    ArchTeryx

    @rikyrah: Know your enemy. I’d expect the vast majority of black folks to have learned that lesson a long time ago, and be vigorous about teaching their kids about it. That’s one great example.

  153. 153.

    Ruckus

    @LAO:

    As someone who has been on more than a couple juries, in different parts of one state and in different states, yes it is. Some are hard core, absolute guilt, some want a discussion – the length of which will absolutely let you know when the last time you ate was, and some are occasionally just bored beyond belief.

  154. 154.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Cacti:

    Omnes is a lawyer. He understands the jury system very well. That’s why I wonder why he respects it.

    I know dozens of trial lawyers and have worked with a couple for decades. With few exceptions, they respect juries. Many will say, though, that juries often get it right but for the wrong reasons

    ETA: And your example of juries in death penalty cases is probably not analogous to just about any other trial category, IMO

    ETA2: None if this is to day WHY the trial attorneys I know respect juries and their verdicts.

  156. 156.

    M31

    my prediction is 38 counts guilty, and 3 hung due to successfully obstructed evidence

    and that trump immediately claims VINDICATED and the NYT’s headline is “Trump not guilty on charges in alleged hush money case in blow to Joe Biden”

  160. 160.

    ArchTeryx

    And apologies to those I may have offended, yes, even Omnes. I guess that’s what makes me a jackal even after all this time… especially in 2017, when it looked very much like I was staring down the barrel of my death thanks to TFG and his MAGAts repealing the ACA. I am in a much better place now, but still damned scared of what will happen if that monster ascends to the presidency again. Has me on edge, and I KNOW I am not the only one.

  161. 161.

    WaterGirl

    @ArchTeryx:

    In reference to Omnes, you wrote:  “No problem, considering how little you seem to know about how the actual jury system works.”

    Then you reply to me with:  “Dude’s a lawyer and faced a lot of juries.”

    Those two comments appear to be in complete contradiction with one another.

    ***

    Then you follow up with: “It doesn’t mean he’s Nostradamus.”

    Find the place in this thread, or any thread, that indicates that I think Omnes is Nostradamus.

    Geez.

  163. 163.

    Ruckus

    @rikyrah:

    he was awful

    He ABSOLUTELY was. A extreme example of how NOT TO LEAD, or whatever the hell it was he was doing. He was a conservatives conservative, screw every last person for the benefit of – absolutely no one.

  172. 172.

    LAO

    @Cacti:

     

    The criminal court system as presently constituted is designed to chew up and spit out accused persons with maximum possible efficiency.

    Genuine question: what alternative do you support?

  174. 174.

    stacib

    @rikyrah: Totally OT, but I have known Russ Dorsey personally since he was about 14 years old.  Truly a good, young person with fantastic parents.  I’m so proud every time I hear him on 670, The Score.

  176. 176.

    ArchTeryx

    @sab: Oddly, no. I graduated from grad school in 2008 and left Ohio for good back then. It was already starting to go hard right even when the Great Recession had just begun.

    The state that drove me out was Michigan. The moment that the Supremes ruled the Medicaid expansion optional, I knew my days there were numbered. At the time, it was run top to bottom by Republicans who would accept the expansion over their dead bodies.

    Then Patty Murray made a deal with the Devil (Paul Ryan) to keep us from defaulting on our debt – by taking away emergency unemployment dating to the Great Recession. That was my entire income.

    No income, no Medicaid expansion = death. So I came to New York State as a refugee, with whatever I could pack in my car. I’ve been here ever since.

    What had me in such a panic was that I depended on the Medicaid expansion to live. Had the ACA been repealed, it would have blown a 15 billion dollar hole in the state budget.. and our Medicaid program would have collapsed. Without access to care, my fate in NYS would have been the same as in Michigan – death.

    Jackals talked me down from the ledge then, and they were right. Now I have full time professional-level employment with NYS government and work as a financial analyst for… Medicaid! Giving back what I got.

  178. 178.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: Yeah, that would be crushing. To be a good attorney, I think you need to be invested in your client.  Cue all the BJ attorneys telling me I am dead wrong.

  180. 180.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    As the jury starts deliberations, Trump continues to be himself.

    Former President Donald Trump addressed reporters outside the Manhattan courtroom and called his criminal hush money trial “rigged.”
    Trump also slammed Judge Juan Merchan and called him conflicted and corrupt.

    “Mother Teresa could not beat these charges,” Trump said, “These charges are rigged. The whole thing is rigged.”

    Trump also called the trial a “very disgraceful situation” and complained that he has not been able to campaign during the trial and that he’s unable to talk about the ordeal because of the gag order issued by Merchan. “But it’ll be talked about in the history books,” Trump added.

  181. 181.

    Ruckus

    @ArchTeryx:

    You are seeing the money projecting and protecting the monied. They likely think SFB actually is shitforbrains, the same way I do, but he has money and to many humans money is the overwhelming guiding light to humanity. The wealthy earned the right to be dicks (and sure, not all of them are) they earned the right to be special, to be recognized for their money. For many, money is the overwhelming indicator of a human being, for money can do no wrong. (And no, I’m not in any way saying I agree with this, just that I’ve met a few monied individuals and sure they run the entire scale of humanity but to most of the one’s I’ve met, money is the overriding indicator of the value of their lives)

  183. 183.

    BlueGuitarist

    Just saw this at Politicalwire – wondering what you all know/think about this:

    Get Paid to Talk to Friends About Voting
    May 29, 2024 at 11:00 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 3 Comments

    Wired: “Since the 2022 election, Relentless has championed relational organizing, and this year the group is launching a $10.8 million program that will, in part, help pay participants in the program a $200 stipend to get out the vote.”

    “The organizers of the program say they plan to build out a network of more than 2 million voters across seven battleground states, including Arizona, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.”

  184. 184.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: Yep, fuck Reagan. In fact, I say dig him up, chop what’s left of his head off, and stick it in Trump’s bed.

    Having done that, we should also recall that Reagan was, like Trump is, just a symptom, a tool. The real evil are the bastards who fundamentally, to their bones, think that there should be a ruling class, really, a club, and you ain’t in it.

  185. 185.

    Donatellonerd

    @LAO: one that does not permit plea bargaining and in particular does not punish defendants for going to trial. one with enough staff and lawyers (and even prosecutors) for trials to happen and be taken seriously. but i can’t really imagine that happening.

    was a legal aid lawyer for juveniles … jesus it was almost 50 years ago.

  186. 186.

    Cacti

    @LAO: Adequately funded and staffed courts would be a good start. Adequately funded and staffed Public Defenders’ offices to go with it would be better still.

    An outright ban on private/for profit prisons would be good too. No one should ever have a money-making motive in the incarceration of others.

  187. 187.

    LAO

    @Donatellonerd: I definitely agree that our criminal justice system needs to be better funded across the board. I’m also opposed to “the trial tax” but I do believe plea bargaining has its place.
    To me, the original poster seemed to be arguing against the concept of jury trials, in general. I’ve thought long and hard how the system can be improved but I have no idea what could replace a jury system.

    ETA: I stand corrected. Cacti doesn’t want to replace the jury system.

  189. 189.

    Dangerman

    Damn. I thought my center Bingo square of Mother Theresa being invoked at the Stormy Daniels trial was bogus.

  190. 190.

    Sure Lurkalot

    If I look hard enough, surely there’s a pundit that has opined that either guilty, innocent or hung, it will win over tens of millions of voters and make Trump invincible.

  192. 192.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I really, REALLY wish news orgs would just describe this as “Trump spends hour lying about the trial” instead of saying things like “Trump addressed the crowd”.

    It’s much more factual and informative.

  193. 193.

    p.a.

    I was on a jury that sat on our decision to get that one last free lunch.

    Worked for a guy on the Bonded Vault jury; sequestered for weeks.  NE Mob boss Ray Patriarcha’s guys robbed his own crime family’s vault ’cause he thought they were shorting him while he was in prison.  No innocent victim, jurors in danger of intimidation from both sides.

    Worked with a guy on the Christopher Hightower murder jury; nightmares for a year because of the evidence.  Google if you have a strong stomach.

  197. 197.

    Ruckus

    @Another Scott:

    I’m not sure the loss of support in a conviction situation would be dramatic, SFB has shown far too often, who he is. And he still has support. Now I do agree that 1-2% is too low, I’d bet that maybe 5% is his max of loss of support. Because if people can’t see who and what he is now, is a conviction going to change many minds? It’s a trial for money diddling, not murder. I can imagine that many of his supporters actually like him FOR doing that.

  205. 205.

    Manyakitty

    @narya: trump’s latest Evan Gershkovich (sp?) blarp reminds me of Reagan telling Iran to hold on to our hostages until after the election. At least Reagan had the sense to hide his ratfucking instead of puking it out for everyone to see. Super gross.

  206. 206.

    AM in NC

    Question for lawyers here:  If Trump is found guilty of a felony here, does that mean he will be ineligible to vote in the election?  Or does Florida law say it has to be a felony conviction in Florida (or Federal conviction) to be ineligible to vote there?

    Thanks!

  207. 207.

    LAO

    General question to the other litigators here, re: jury notes. It’s been my experience that when a jury note comes out, shortly before the jury reaches a verdict, that appears to favor the defense: the jury convicts and vice versa, if the note favors the prosecution, it’s an acquittal.
    I think the last jury note or two, is always directed at convincing a holdout or two. Anyone else experience this?

  211. 211.

    WaterGirl

    @BlueGuitarist: I think it’s great.  They aren’t being paid for VOTES;  they are getting paid to talk to friends and family about the issue and about voting.

    I’m all for it.

    What do you think?

  212. 212.

    Belafon

    @ArchTeryx: And yet, in other trials, Trump has been found guilty by even those that voted for him. Some people can actually do the right thing even if their politics may cross it.

  214. 214.

    catclub

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: “Mother Teresa could not beat these charges,” Trump said, “These charges are rigged. The whole thing is rigged.”

     

    Wow, so he is saying he will be found guilty.

  220. 220.

    Soprano2

    @Chief Oshkosh: Reagan got elected because of stagflation and the Iranian hostage crisis. These two things made Carter seem incompetent to many Americans. What do you think Biden’s chances of re-election would be with 10% inflation, 8% unemployment and Americans being held hostage by the Iranian government?

  222. 222.

    Jackie

    @catclub: 😂 I wish CNN would remove that stupid clock! And, I see MSNBC has one, too. At least it’s less in your face than CNN’s! Both are theatrical drama, IMO.

  223. 223.

    Belafon

    I love that the comments between the lawyers here sound just like the fights over pineapple on pizza.

  224. 224.

    Mike E

    ianal but with dozens of counts to logistically sort through I don’t expect a verdict by the end of the week*

    *if the jury is as diligent as the judge has been to not leave open the possibility of appeals due to janky deliberation and poor procedure

  225. 225.

    Another Scott

    @Elizabelle: Hitchens said in his little book, IIRC, that basically she was raising money to pay for a sainthood.  E.g. raising millions by drawing attention to the poor and the suffering and using the money, not to actually treat their illnesses and improve their conditions, but to send off to Rome.

    Kinda horrible, if true.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  230. 230.

    zeecube

    @Dangerman: NY style cheesecake seems appropriate.  Mrs. ZC baked a strawberry-rhubarb pie for the occasion. (and living in the deep South, finding fresh rhubarb in season is especially difficult. )

  231. 231.

    Quadrillipede

    @Sure Lurkalot: surely there’s a pundit that has opined that… it will… make Trump invincible.

    “Sure, every last one of Tramp’s other cunning plans has backfired spectacularly, but this time he’s gonna prevail, so maybe we should prostrate ourselves before him…”

    🙄

  232. 232.

    Ruckus

    @catclub:

    Do you really think that djt has more real resources than the prosecutors  in this case? I don’t. I also think that the prosecutors are a hell of a lot smarter than him, which, given his personality will not allow a lawyer to insist on him paying them much heed at all in containing his rather useless personality. djt is the sort of human that has for over 3/4 of a century believed that he is the golden boy, the far better person than all the rest of humanity, especially after being elected president, and all the while he has been proving the exact opposite. His internal world is rose colored perfection, what the rest of us paying any attention whatsoever see is an entirely different, pompous, arrogant, useless asshole.

  236. 236.

    rikyrah

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage:

    it’s another reason why I love Joe Biden.

    He straight up says that Reaganomics was phucking trash and didn’t work. Doesn’t hem and haw about it. Try and touch around the edges. No. He says that it didn’t work, and we need to try something else.

  237. 237.

    Quadrillipede

    @Ruckus: Because if people can’t see who and what he is now, is a conviction going to change many minds?

    I think there’s an argument that it might, especially among likely voters who vaguely remember disapproving of Grump when he was in office, but have been vigorously ignoring him ever since…

  238. 238.

    The Lodger

    @TBone: Central PA courthouse restaurants?  Generally awful, spendy or both. Not a bad idea to eat lunch at home.

  239. 239.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Quadrillipede: Honestly, yes. “Convicted felon for cheating in the 2016 election” is a good description for low-info voters. This guy is a cheat and a liar and does it SO DAMN MUCH that he actually got legally caught for it.

  241. 241.

    TerryC

    @Elizabelle: A dear friend of mine, RIP Yi Chen, was part of the group that brought the first pandas over. Thank you for bringing this up as I immediately have memories of him telling me about occupying American soldiers in WWII who bemused him with their idioms. (He had learned good English in school.) He would say, “‘Take a piss’? Where are you taking it?” and just double over laughing. :)

  244. 244.

    Ruckus

    @Quadrillipede:

    Oh I think it might change a few, but look, it isn’t all that difficult to see who and what shitforbrains is. He’s been basically a slightly quieter version of who he is today for most of his life. He just didn’t have the history of being such a loud, asinine human being until he climbed that ladder of full exposure that is being the highest level US government official and we all got to see who he really is. And of course he couldn’t get another stab at that job because he was his pure shit self and showed the country exactly who and what he is.

Comments are closed.