I'm telling you, non-engaged voters literally don't believe these are the candidates and are still considering this election to be hypothetical. https://t.co/QJfQAlP9TG
— Alito Vexillological Apologetics Society (@agraybee) May 28, 2024
Since the One Topic of the Day is bound to be TFG’s courtroom theatrics, I’m gonna let my curmudgeon flag fly…
And replacing Thomas, Alito, and Roberts when they "retire."
— Nefarious Means (@MeansNefarious) May 28, 2024
Gonna be darkly funny watching all these writers who have spread non-stop anti-Biden propaganda for the last 7 months (or in some cases *three years*) have their "oh shit" moments this summer and start telling everyone they need to vote for him anyway https://t.co/AkM1fkvwus
— Swann Marcus (@SwannMarcus89) May 29, 2024
“Life is more affordable for me, I just assume it’s terrible for everyone else because that’s what I see on media and social media, which I trust.”
This is it. This is the median voter. This is the explanation for the vibecession. https://t.co/G9W0KE0wFB
— Will Stancil (@whstancil) May 28, 2024
If a republican was President over this exact same economy, Democrats would be told not to even bother participating in the 2024 election and to just come back in 2028. https://t.co/S4VLvRAEi1
— Tim (@trouble_man90) May 29, 2024
"you're not allowed to claim credit for the good things you've done unless you have our permission" is the argument here. treat it with contempt
— Will Stancil (@whstancil) May 28, 2024
Tell me you have no idea how the nominations process works, the primary process works, or really how politics works. Like, exactly what magical device would you employ to replace Biden—without nominating Harris. Because I don’t even have to ask to know you don’t want her. pic.twitter.com/jCkMYW7P5s
— Jason Karsh (@jkarsh) May 29, 2024
For these people, "the poor get poorer" isn't a statement of fact, but a statement of faith, and what they want Biden to do is reaffirm their faith, even after Biden has objectively reversed the trend and made the poor wealthier. It's perverse and self-defeating
— Will Stancil (@whstancil) May 29, 2024
Speaking of idiots: ‘Former’ Trump press secretary Hogan Gidley!
Gidley: You talked about Judge Cannon earlier and you called her a Trump appointee. But you didn't characterize Judge Merchan as a Biden donor
Tapper: I think he gave like 35 bucks to buy a t-shirt pic.twitter.com/LwIpZDD8gB
— Acyn (@Acyn) May 28, 2024
Baud
Wrong. The most important thing is shitting on Dems. Prices just happens to be the way to do it right now.
OzarkHillbilly
Yeah… No. They think they are immune to trump’s depredations. After all, they aren’t black, Hispanic, Arabic, Asian, poor, immigrants, etc etc etc.
Baud
The best thing you can do for the vibe economy is vote for Trump, because you get an immediate 40% turnaround in how (MAGA) people feel about the economy.
ETA: Plus an immediate change in media coverage.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
👍
They’re doing their part to advance the interests of their tribe.
Kay
The Trump tax cuts expire in December of 2025, hence the big push by billionaires and media to elect Trump and Senate Republicans.
It’s the.shilling for senate Republicans that’s the tell. They need both Trump and the senate or they have to start paying taxes again.
OzarkHillbilly
The HORROR!
Baud
@Kay:
Good point.
This isn’t new. When Obama saves the economy after Bush, all the media was about how terrible the economy was even after the recovery took hold. Obama had enough oomph to overcome it, but the lie worked to take down Hillary.
Kay
I tell people Biden and his team have been absolutely terrible on Gaza – that’s not “propaganda” but simply the truth – but very good on most other things. Most people don’t care about Gaza so there’s really no need to gaslight them. Just concede the Gaza point. Insisting it isn’t happening just discredits advocates on everything else.
You’ll lose the Gaza voters but they were gone anyway.
Kay
You don’t have to LEAD with the admission on Gaza but if asked there’s no reason to go into denial mode – concede that point and move on – Biden has a very good record on lots of other things.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone😊😊😊
satby
@Baud: Matt Stoller writing in the Guardian had a good article that needs to be widely shared about our “inflation” since 2021. And that share has to be paired with the reminder that Republicans blocked legislation regulating price gouging.
Baud
@Kay:
Agree. True for any issue, whether we think it’s valid or not. If someone is convinced Biden is terrible in the economy, they’re not going to listen to statistics. Talk about abortion or something else.
rikyrah
Unlike the pearl choking press, I am glad that the Biden campaign showed up in Manhattan yesterday. Take it to those clowns😠
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
Baud
@Baud:
Of course, the harder thing is how do you do it online when silent readers are watching the interaction. You can’t appear weak to them.
E.
@Kay: I so much agree with you here. I have been having endless conversations with my lefty friends about this. It is possible to be a sincere and heartfelt and serious critic of Biden’s Gaza policy and remain a committed supporter. Life ain’t black and white.
Kay
@E.:
It’s like at a hearing or trial where you immunize a weakness in the witness or defendant by bringing it to the fore before the opposition can. It’s a weakness. Concede and move on. Gaslighting people by continually lowering the bar (“he’s better than Nikki Haley, who is an actual genocidal maniac who wants to murder all Muslims!” No shit, but is that the standard we want? ) isn’t smart and isn’t going to work.
Shalimar
Morning Joe is now preparing viewers for a possible verdict in Trump’s favor. I accept the possibility while having no interest whatsoever in hearing about it in advance.
OzarkHillbilly
Every time I see that #, you know what I think of. Or maybe I should say, who.
Turd wars: North Korea accused of sending balloons carrying excrement into the South
Did not have that on my 2024 Headline Bingo card.
RevRick
Paul Campos, over at LGM, posits the Ariana Grande theory of politics. What he means is that the average voter understands politics and economics about as much as I understand Ariana Grande. I know she’s a pop singer, but I couldn’t tell you one song she’s known for and would be hard put to identify her in a crowd.
This makes us want to pull our hair out, but it does leave open the possibility of a crash course before the election that provides them with the essential information.
Matt McIrvin
@satby: wait, Matt Stoller wrote a good article? Did he go not insane?
Baud
One of the problems liberals have is that they want to educate people to help them come to the right conclusion instead of persuading people to do the right thing. That’s a much harder lift, a waste of resources, and frankly most of us aren’t skilled enough to accomplish the task.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
Heh. That was my reaction.
Kay
@Baud:
That’s not just liberals. A ton of people conflate “character” with “formal education”, hence the constant refrain of “how did this MONSTER Proud Boy go to Harvard?”
Because there’s absolutely no connection between ethics and good character and amount or price of education?
Gin & Tonic
@RevRick:
The “median voter” is, and always has been, a fucking idiot.
Baud
@Kay:
Agree. With respect to white people, we do better with college educated than non-college educated. And since white people are the standard, white liberal society just assumes that education = character. But even among white people, the difference isn’t so stark to justify the connection.
O. Felix Culpa
@Gin & Tonic:
And that’s what make democracy so hard.
BellyCat
Biden’s record, if examined in good faith, is sterling. Gaza is the one exception. The humanitarian need is urgent and that likely resonates with Biden. There’s still time to reduce this voting obstacle for some. We’ll just have to wait and see if he can effectively signal or enforce restraint given Bibi’s genocidal intent.
TBone
I have so much to say. But the haul away guy is coming at 9am and I must attend to being as ruthless as possible getting rid of stuff (despite my Herculean efforts to be as minimalist as possible in our new home). If we haven’t touched it in a year or two, it’s gone. Even if it’s just stored in the basement out of view, so I don’t have to deal with it in the future. A lot of perfectly good stuff is going today, I hope I can maintain the ruthless mindset and not be swayed by sentiment!
Mood lifter: Dr. Jill Biden is on The View today (she was just on GMA). I adore that woman!
jimmiraybob
I’ve been asking for some time now who will step up and write the screenplay for Idiocracy II: The Trumpening.
Jeffro
I hope Biden/Harris 2024 is cooking up some ads that show lots and lots of checkpoints in America’s future under trumpov.
Checkpoints where the cops check your car for immigrants (and haul off anyone “questionable”).
Checkpoints where they check your ID against lists of known campus protestors (to be deported per trumpov’s orders).
Checkpoints where they administer quick-result pregnancy tests, to see if you’re a) properly registered with the government a la Katie Britt’s plan, or b) possibly on your way to an abortion clinic in another state.
If nothing else, the thought of endless traffic delays due to all these checkpoints should spur the normies into action.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@TBone: I love throwing things away. Mr DAW hides things from me because he’s afraid I’ll toss them
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
He should be grateful you haven’t thrown him away.
The Dark Avenger
@Baud: A Radical Centralist is one who thinks selling liberal politics is akin to spreading rabies or TB in a population.
Jeffro
same here! make the circus clown media mentality in this country work for us, for once. grab that spotlight and break through with some facts
BellyCat
@jimmiraybob: Tony Jay. Just need to convince Hollywood that viewers will sit through a fourteen hour movie.
Baud
@The Dark Avenger:
Well, we’re getting rid of our two worst in Manchin and Sinema. We’ve actually been shedding them for two decades. We’ll see if that’s to our net benefit or not.
ETA: My prediction is as worthless as everyone else’s, but I believe if of we lose, Dems will stop moving left, and we could see a Bill Clinton type in 2028.
catclub
This is the opposite of the Gell-Mann effect. You start out mostly believing what you read… until you read a report on something you know about which has no connection at all to accuracy… then you go back and wonder about all those reports you initially trusted.
This idiot believes the social media even more than their own experience.
Baud
@catclub:
People believe what they want to believe. See comment #1.
TBone
@Dorothy A. Winsor: it’s a very freeing feeling PLUS less shit laying around to collect dust. I abhor dusting! I like be able to just take a Swiffer duster to a bare surface and swoosh it clean without a bunch of stuff in the way. My hubby tends to try to hoard as well, because he grew up in very stark poverty. Don’t feel guilty about having to be going behind your man’s back to get rid of detritus. If it avoids a scuffle, it’s worth it and I bet he won’t miss most of it anyway!
A good thing about hubby’s awful childhood: Every time I serve him my home cooking, the smile on his face is such a beautiful reward. He takes a lot of pleasure at meal times and hates to eat alone. And he clears up and does the dishes voluntarily after every meal.
Baud
@Baud:
If of = if
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Baud: Truth!
jimmiraybob
@Jeffro: “Checkpoints where the cops …”
Checkpoints where the local MAGA militia …….
OzarkHillbilly
Whocouldaknowed?
Kay
@BellyCat:
Israel announced yesterday this will continue all through 2024. I read Israeli news sources on Gaza – all of the comments are people betting Biden will lose – they want Trump and they’re confident they’ll get him. The comments on Harris are particularly gross – racist as hell. She’s been more critical of Gaza so they attack her more, but they also hate Biden. Democrats always lose when they aim to the Right of Republicans.
TBone
@Jeffro:
@rikyrah:
After Joe Piscopo appeared on the scene last week, Robert DeNiro was the PERFECT foil 😆🥰 and I think it was a stroke of utter genius to hold that press conference! I’m SO happy to see these guys standing with President Biden (meaning the Capitol police AND Bobby DeNiro). I hope many campaign ads feature these heroes!
Baud
@Kay:
It’s a good bet. Much upside, almost no downside.
OzarkHillbilly
@BellyCat: It will be a miniseries. Still not sure who would sit thru 14 hours of torture.
TBone
@OzarkHillbilly: Barbara Jones, where are you when we need you! Hahaha Rump org just sold one of his private jets and I’m still pissed that no one reported where that money goes/went.
SFAW
@Baud:
1) Many years ago, my brother opined on a similar structure: in Nassau County (NY), voters would elect a Rethug county executive (sort of a mini-preznit for the county). That person would drive the county economy into a ditch. The voters would then elect a Dem to fix things. Unfortunately, “fixing things” typically required some level of pain, e.g., raising taxes. Voters would get pissed about the pain, and then elect a Rethug, and the cycle would repeat.
2) It used to be — less so lately, I think — that a Rethug preznit would blame the previous Dem for the terrible economy. This would go on for more than two years. However, if a Dem president tried to try the same tactic after being in office for six months, the Rethugs would scream/howl/whine.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
There are ways of strapping people to chairs and forcing them to keep their eyelids open.
Baud
@SFAW:
It’s been the same nationally, three times in a row. It’s why I’m getting off this train if we lose. I’m not living the rest of my life as a sap.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I’d find a way to slit my wrists.
Kay
Biden was never going to get to the Right of a Nikki Haley “this bomb is to decapitate brown Muslim children!” (heart over the “i”) – genocidal lunatic.
He’ll not get a single vote over Gaza – any Gaza hawk is better off with the GOP, obviously, and he will lose some. It’s a lose/lose on every level, policy, morally, world affairs, Biden’s legacy and domestic politically. There are huge pro Palestinian protests in Mexico today. It spreads every single day. I don’t think Hillary Clinton was ever as wrong in her life when she said the protestors “didn’t understand” other countries. People in “other countries” are much closer to the protestors than Joe Biden on this. Just dead wrong.
SFAW
@BellyCat:
Oh, cut the bullshit. There’s NO WAY Tony would make it longer than 12 hours. [And a lot of that will be because saying “favour” instead of “favor,” “neighbour” instead of “neighbor,” and so forth, would add significant run-time to the flick.]
UncleEbeneezer
Wow! Will Stancil is actually making sense for once. My boss keeps sending out company emails about how some of our locations are struggling with enrollment because people are feeling the pinch of inflation and I keep wanting to tell him to stop spreading that shit. And he’s not even some MAGA jerk. Pretty sure he’s a Liberal(-ish) Dem, or maybe a soft Libertarian, but it sounds like he’s convinced of the same belief about the economy, despite every actual economic indicator. It’s frustrating.
TBone
They are outnumbered, outflanked, and outsmarted. We cannot lose, we can only be cheated out of winning. I said the same thing in October & November, 2020 right up in as many MAGA faces as possible online. They cried so hard, delicious, salty, white tears…
jimmiraybob
@Baud:
I saw that movie.
TBone
Inflationcorporate price gouging and subsidizing oiligarchsSFAW
@Baud:
As long as they don’t also play Ludwig Van, that’s OK.
On the other hand, 14 hours of Air Supply would probably violate the Geneva Convention.
TBone
Haul away guy texted, he’s running late. More play time! Lemme see what I can find to fuck with today…
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
Yeah, the elites are all in. I’ll hand it to them, they appreciate threats when they see them. Maybe that’s why they are elites.
Melancholy Jaques
@BellyCat:
But no one in the political media operates in good faith. If there is exactly one thing that is negative, they will pound it relentlessly. See, e.g., Butter Emails.
For some voters, the most important job of an American president is to control how Israel treats Palestinians. This has never been important before 2024, but now it is the single most important thing, overriding all other considerations. Those voters are never going to vote for Biden. They don’t care that Trump will be much worse.
There are other voters who have regularly voted and regularly voted for Democrats in the past. They will do so again this year. The only thing that will change their minds is if Biden ends military support of Israel. If he does that, they will not vote for him and he will lose the election.
While it is easy for us to say the Biden is bad on Gaza, given these realities, is it reasonable to expect an American president to forego re-election?
TBone
You LOVE TO SEE IT
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/05/dan-goldman-stacey-plaskett-call-out-jim
SFAW
@Melancholy Jaques:
The interesting thing is that “but her e-mails!” was only a “negative” because the MSM made it into that. Her e-mail server was more secure than the ones that were actually compromised, and I am still waiting to hear which of her e-mails on that server was/were an actual problem, or were hacked, or that the Russians obtained.
raven
@TBone: I’m waiting on an Agent Orange evaluation call from the VA that was scheduled for 9am.
OzarkHillbilly
Vivek Ramaswamy is going to save BuzzFeed by signing up the likes Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens. That’s some real star power there.
TBone
GUILTY
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/05/witness-trump-bragged-about-sex-porn-star
TBone
@raven: my best hopes for as much of a positive outcome as is possible for you my friend!!!! 😘💙
TBone
@OzarkHillbilly: is Tuckums not located in Russia anymore? Who let him back in?
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Interesting.
Belafon
@Melancholy Jaques: Not only would the Democrat lose the election if Biden decided not to run, but Democrats on the whole would lose so many elections that there would be no stopping Republicans ending our democracy.
raven
@TBone: Soprano got the ball rolling for me!
TBone
@SFAW: why were ONLY the dem emails leaked, but not the rethug ones that were also stolen at the same time? Tiedrich has a very good read on this:
https://www.jefftiedrich.com/p/what-kind-of-kompromat-is-donald
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Not even sure if my boss is an “elite.” I’m sure he does okay, lives in a fairly affluent city but nothing crazy. But I think like so many people, he just takes the bait that Republicans and the Media puts out there.
TBone
@raven: that’s awesome. I love this place. My heart is with you today, please check in again with us to let us know what gives if you can. I don’t know any of your details, if you’ve shared them already. I have a personal funny story and a personal horror story about Agent Orange to share…but I don’t want to say anything yet.
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
The elites have their lackeys who identify with them.
Scout211
Want a laugh (at Trump’s expense)? HuffPost
Video (on Xitter) at the link above. Or here: Biden-Harris HQ X
Soprano2
@Kay: That’s interesting considering that the protestors don’t see any difference between Biden and TFG when it comes to Gaza and policy toward Israel.
Chief Oshkosh
@Kay: I don’t agree that Biden will lose a lot of votes nationally over Gaza. We’re in a bubble, like everyone else is in their’s. Nobody I know outside of my group cares that much about Gaza. They may not like it, but it won’t drive their votes.
I think that the only voters who are critical here are Muslims in swing states like Michigan.
Edited to fix low caffeine errors.
raven
@TBone: Soprano2
A very nice PA did the interview and now to the state rep!I did 13 months in Korea and 9 months 24 days in the Nam. Most folks here have been bored to death with my stories!
Manyakitty
@raven: hoping this goes your way!
UncleEbeneezer
@Melancholy Jaques: There is no easy position/move with respect to Gaza. Period. Stopping any/all support to Israel would be political suicide for any (Dem) President. Anyone who claims that Biden has been awful is being naive about the incredible, political complexity of the situation, imo. I think Biden has managed the situation about as well as any Dem President could. There’s a lot of “Biden should’ve done X” statements made w/r/t Gaza, from his Progressive critics, but usually very little follow-up on all of the political risks of such hypothetical moves.
UncleEbeneezer
@Baud: Absolutely. But I don’t think my boss is in that camp. He doesn’t strike me as one, just from my own interactions with him and with the way he handled Covid restrictions and the things he’s said about Global Warming, etc. But who knows…
Josie
@raven: Keeping fingers crossed for you.
Chris
@Kay:
The fact that one of Israel’s objectives in Gaza is blatantly “throw up enough bad press to hopefully throw the U.S. election to Trump” is something the Biden admin seems either blissfully unaware of, or has no fucking idea what to do about it.
I’m with you, I don’t bring up Biden’s Gaza record, but I have no interest in defending it when it comes up, not least because it isn’t convincing anybody. He needs to figure this shit out himself.
evodevo
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
well with Mr Evodevo it’s that PLUS if he can’t find something, the go-to is “what did you do with my ……!!!” To be sure one out of 100 times I DID move/trow something out LOL
Chris
@SFAW:
I mean, it doesn’t matter that the Rethugs scream/howl/whine, if they’re the only ones doing it. The damaging thing is that the media does the same thing, while refusing to do it in reverse when someone like Biden, Obama, or Clinton has to deal with the shit economy his predecessor left him. And then a number of “too broad minded to take their own side in a quarrel” Democrats compound the problem by following the narrative in the idea that this is how you show integritude and patriotism and above all, non-partisanship.
Baud
@Chris:
You’re stuck in the past. Biden is getting criticized from the left and the right for talking up his economic success.
Chris
@UncleEbeneezer:
My CEO (no idea of his politics, but my suspicions are “not good”) took the opportunity of the annual company reunion last month to tell us that “they” were probably going to lower interest rates in time for the election, but that he foresaw a really grim economy ahead.
They never miss an opportunity to spread the good propaganda.
Manyakitty
@UncleEbeneezer: all of this.
Baud
@UncleEbeneezer:
Maybe. I obviously don’t know, and there are people who are simply sponges for misinformation.
BlueGuitarist
Daily Kos Elections has a good piece about the > $5 million Republicans have poured into the VA-05 Republican primary in the last month or so to crush or prop up incumbent nut job Bob Good. Expensive injuries!
The Morning Digest also includes updates on the Texas runoffs, including narrow win for TX-23 where incumbent R Tony Gonzalez narrowly defeated lunatic backed by Good and Chip Roy.
And more….
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/5/29/2243303/-Morning-Digest-Trump-endorses-rival-to-Freedom-Caucus-chief-who-schlepped-to-his-trial?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_1&pm_medium=web
stinger
@Melancholy Jaques:
Yep. This has replaced “how we got out of Afghanistan”, and probably for the same voters. People who didn’t know where Afghanistan is, couldn’t spell it, didn’t know when or why we were there in the first place….
Harrison Wesley
@Kay: Unless one has a big checkbook or a big megaphone, an individual American’s options for a political response to the Gaza inferno are pretty limited. 1. Torch oneself in front of the Israeli embassy; 2. Renounce one’s citizenship and emigrate; 3. Recognize that President Biden’s first obligation is to the people of the United States, and he’s a damn sight better than any Republican as far as that goes. I’m too chickenshit for 1, I’m too broke for 2, so 3. I’m voting a straight Democratic ticket this fall.
Another Scott
@Melancholy Jaques: +1
Counter-factuals are fun, but I like to remember that Biden was burning up the phone with Bibi just after October 7. And while Bibi started bombing quickly, (IIRC) he didn’t actually send bootsonaground into Gaza for a month or more. I like to think that Biden yelling at him had an effect in delaying the invasion and making Bibi think harder about it.
Yes, Bibi and the IDF are monsters. Yes, they are killing innocents, engaging in collective punishment, destroying Gaza. But it actually could and would have been much, much worse without Biden’s actions.
Bibi and the IDF have agency. They’re choosing how to prosecute this war and that conduct cannot sensibly be heaped onto Biden and the US.
We do not, of course, live in the best of all possible worlds. But those who say it’s somehow Biden’s fault need to tell me what comes next after proposed Biden action #1.
Biden’s called for a ceasefire. Bibi has said no.
Biden’s delayed weapons deliveries. Bibi paused a bit, but went into Rafah anyway.
Biden’s built a pier to “flood the zone” with aid and demand that Israel let aid in. Bibi still blocks overland shipment of aid and has slow-walked aid from the pier.
What do the critics think the US and Biden should do that would actually have a positive effect beyond what we are doing? Invade??
“Yer doin’ it rong, make him stop” isn’t much of a path forward, IMO.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Chris
@UncleEbeneezer:
A number of people with generally good politics still end up repeating a plethora of wingnut talking points without realizing that’s what they’re doing, largely for no better reason than “everybody’s saying it so it must be true.”
This is where the real harm from the MSM comes in. Politically speaking, they largely exist to launder right-wing talking points into left-leaning audiences. So you end up with all these people with generally good political inclinations nevertheless telling you that the economy is bad, that crime is skyrocketing, that there’s a huge crisis at the border, that the deficit is a real problem, that the Democrats need to talk less about identity politics, that Biden is too old…
Chris
@Baud:
No, I’m not stuck in the past. I’m responding specifically to a point about Democratic presidents blaming their Republican predecessors for the bad economies at the start of their term, so that, not the good economy that comes later or the way Democrats try to talk about it, is what I’m talking about.
Geminid
@UncleEbeneezer: I think Biden could have done in January what he started doing in March when he ratcheted up public and private pressure on the Israeli government. For various reasons Biden’s administration was too passive as the war in Gaza “drifted sideways,” as John Warner said in 2006 about Bush’s Iraq War.
TBone
Add another commemorative plate to the J6 Jail Time collection!
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/ex-marco-rubio-intern-indicted-for-january-6-capitol-attack-20022168
Too bad, so sad 😆
🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PqUenEMwsdQ
jonas
@Chris:
I think this is mostly right, but that the process goes more like: 1. Wingnut Wurlitzer gins up outrage over X. 2. MSM reports on issue X because “people are talking about it.” 3. Reporting concludes it’s mostly a nothingburger, but that “opinions are divided” and “the issue remains a political hot potato” and “it remains to be seen” whether it turns out to be significant or not, especially for the upcoming election. 4. MSM audience concludes X must be somewhat relevant or they wouldn’t have reported on it and so therefore it’s “concerning.”
This works for everything from Biden’s age to migrants to inflation.
schrodingers_cat
I disagree with all those here saying that Biden has been terrible on Gaza. He hasn’t. The situation is terrible but its not Biden’s fault. Its a problem that has defied a solution since 1948 if not longer.
Oh and the left is not immune to ancient bigotries like racism, xenophobia and anti-semitism. Far left mostly white bros and sisters also love to center themselves as much as the MAGAs do. And hate sharing power with undesirables like new immigrants, black people, Jewish people etc who have a seat at the table in the Democratic party. That’s why Ds have to fight their left flank while taking on the right.
TBone
@raven: I hope you get all the financial benefits possible AND any and all FREE health care in perpetuity!!!
Scout211
Whoa. NBC
Florida Man becomes Russian propagandist.
Jeffro
@BlueGuitarist: trumpov: “Bob Good is BAD FOR VIRGINIA, AND BAD FOR THE USA!”
omg for once he spoke the truth 😁
wjca
Anyone who doubts this should consider the most visible frat boys they remember from college. (Pretty much all on full mommy-daddy scholarships.) Good character was never within shouting distance of their bingo cards.
Omnes Omnibus
@wjca:
Steve in the WTF resents your implication.
TBone
@Scout211: and the RWNJs think us females are the witches who need punishment SMDH. Should be shot fer shit and hung fer stinkin’!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@UncleEbeneezer:
That was my reaction and now I feel dirty for saying that and need to go take a hot shower.
His “insights” are almost always a lesser-known variation of what The Turd, aka Yglesias, would say.
How he gets traction in real progressive circles is beyond me.
Manyakitty
@schrodingers_cat: this, all day long.
Chris
@jonas:
Yes to all of this (except for the “mostly a nothingburger” – they never concede that). The only thing I’ll add at stage 2 is that the media doesn’t just pick up what the wingnut media is saying, it also creates the “politically correct” talking points that make wingnut narratives palatable outside of their bubble.
They won’t say that Covid is a Chinese bioweapon and we should all be injecting Ivermectin, but they’ll talk about how concerned they are that closing schools is bad for the children and saving grandma is really hurting the economy. They won’t say that people who can’t afford health insurance should just die, but they’ll talk about all the dangers that come from the big spending and excessive bureaucracy of the ACA. They won’t say that we need to let Putin crush Ukraine because he’s the savior of Western civilization from the woke agenda, but they’ll talk about how gosh the Ukrainians are in such a bad spot it’s just hard to see how they can win. They won’t talk about how immigrants are sucking the blood out of our country and Jews are replacing us, but they’ll talk about how there’s a huge unspecified crisis at the border and Biden isn’t doing anything to protect us from whatever it is. And so forth.
(This is not the same thing as the Cletus Safari phenomenon, but it has a lot of similarity to it. There also, the point is to create a sanitized version of the wingnut narrative, by introducing you to all those poorly described people in Iowa diners who all just happen to have the same concerns as the owner of the New York Times – “the deficit,” “the economy,” “taxes.”)
Harrison Wesley
@Scout211: Interesting career path. USMC – LEO – Russian propagandist. The first two normally wouldn’t be predictive of the last one.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: Which brings us to another edition of What Hilzoy Said.
wjca
@TBone:
In short: Dark Brandon rises.
Geminid
@Jeffro: She’s coming! From Punchbowl News correspondent Mica Soelner:
Sounds like a good weekend to go camping somewhere outside the 5th CD. I recommend Hidden Valley Recreational Area, over in Bath County. It’s a nice National Forest camground on the Jackson River.
Geminid
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Stancil made a notable shift his perspective after the 2022 midterms. He’s been much less critical of Democrats since then, and more willing to defend the Biden administration.
Will Stancil is also running for a Minnesota state House seat now, but the change occurred well before that seat opened up this winter.
rikyrah
UH HUH
UH HUH
This information wasn’t available BEFORE the Primary?
I’m just saying…
Tia Mitchell, AJC’s Washington Correspondent (@ajconwashington) posted at 3:26 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
The woman who won a Democratic congressional primary in Georgia appears to be much more aligned with the Republican party. My latest for the @ajc
https://t.co/JcdeyKTbZW
(https://x.com/ajconwashington/status/1795552321989947740?t=WYjxIkE4vg85w78fbphLXQ&s=03)
rikyrah
Deez & B (@D3andB) posted at 8:29 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
I’m so goddamn sick of seeing all these “Democrats’ real problem is ___” and “If Democrats don’t do ___ they have no one to blame but themselves” takes.
Shut the fuck up.
Dems have worked their asses off to fix everything & anyone who can’t see that is full of shit or ignorant.
(https://x.com/D3andB/status/1795628603327299645?t=F1Ne0EFlKH0vIRgfrwhV5g&s=03)
Baud
@rikyrah:
Dobbs convert? I hope so.
rikyrah
Humam Abd al-Salam![]()
الله أكبر (@llamalaikum) posted at 3:17 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
Nikki Haley signed a bomb with the words “finish them”, but do go on about how Biden is enabling genocide and voting Trump will punish him. (protip: Haley will probably be Trump’s VP pick)
(https://x.com/llamalaikum/status/1795550017089830926?t=lD8i90I_u3UFSgLpe6iPUw&s=03)
rikyrah
Jaime Harrison (@harrisonjaime) posted at 5:54 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
I’ll make it clear: @JoeBiden and @KamalaHarris will be on the ballot in Ohio and all 50 states. Through a virtual roll call, we will ensure that Republicans — despite their best efforts — can’t chip away at our democracy and that Ohioans can freely exercise their right to vote.…
(https://x.com/harrisonjaime/status/1795589501412147610?t=wbTV02LRst1RBErfcOdvgQ&s=03)
Jeffro
@Geminid: oh gross 🤮
Froette saw her on the Hill a week or two ago. Her take? “She’s really short like all the rest of them” LOL
Good and MTG together, polluting my neighborhood with their foul stench, ugh. A good day (two, actually) to get out of town indeed!
rikyrah
I feel you
nope, won’t beg silly ass progressives for votes (@reesetheone1) posted at 7:52 AM on Mon, May 27, 2024:
Nothing is wrong with me.
I’m not gonna beg motherfuckers to use their common sense in this election.
They want to blow it up?
Fine.
I’ll adapt and move on with my life. Progressives however will watch what they care about Die by the hands of the GOP.
(https://x.com/reesetheone1/status/1795075521652355341?t=aS9SQhuvoGSbxS8W-3cbKQ&s=03)
cain
@Scout211: A former marine. Goddam.
rikyrah
This will forever be classic tv. I remember that meltdown by Rove in 2012. Will never not be hilarious. Go look it up on Youtube.
Dr. Virgo (@DrVirgo1981) posted at 6:11 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
I remember Karl rove being SHOCKED when they called it for Obama. He went down to the basement to talk to the tech guys on air because he believed the polls
(https://x.com/DrVirgo1981/status/1795593713420583217?t=PF-1-VB8dwA_iOid8jhnlw&s=03)
Geminid
@rikyrah: That really was hilarious. Rove acted like he had some secret stash of votes in southern Ohio that hadn’t been counted yet.
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
Zing! (As some would say.)
Soprano2
@raven: Now you wait to see what they think you’re owed. You should get the benefits you earned!
Geminid
@Jeffro: Hidden Valley is a really nice drive. I like to go by way of Rt. 252, that parallels Rt. 11 to the west. Then you take Rt. 39 through Goshen Pass to Warm Springs. The campground is 6 miles north of Warm Springs.
rikyrah
Chris D. Jackson (@ChrisDJackson) posted at 5:16 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
Folks, this narrative is entirely media-driven and just plain bullshit. The truth is that President Biden is virtually tied with Trump in national polls and either leads or is tied in the key “blue wall” states that could secure his election win.
Looking back at historical elections:
– Al Gore was trailing by seven points at a similar juncture in the 2000 election but ultimately won the popular vote and, arguably, the election.
– John Kerry held a significant lead over George W. Bush at this point in the 2004 election but ended up losing both the Electoral College and the popular vote.
– John McCain led in September of the 2008 election but ultimately lost considerably in November.
– Mitt Romney and President Obama were neck-and-neck in the 2012 election at this point, with Romney even leading in some polls. Romney went on to lose the election by a comfortable margin.
The point is polls have been consistently wrong at this juncture in the race and even later.
No one should be “freaking out” because the truth is, Joe Biden is well-positioned to win this race and ultimately will with our help.
Stay focused and work. 💪
https://t.co/YFvbfIvaeU
(https://x.com/ChrisDJackson/status/1795579843624550771?t=C4aubkcCXd_-hqq-UmvAWg&s=03)
Shane in SLC
Is anyone else finding BJ unreadable on an iPhone this morning? It crashes my browser every time I open it.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: So true.
UncleEbeneezer
@schrodingers_cat: Open, unabashed Anti-Semitism has been on the rise for the last couple years. And yet, there’s been very little concern in Progressive spaces. And if you even dare to bring up the elephant in the room about how much, far more subtle Anti-Semitism there is in Pro-Palestine spaces (just as there is a ton of Islamophobia in Pro-Israel ones) and their leaders, you just get called “pro-Genocide.”
Magdi Jacobs on Twitter, has been great at writing about the ways Progressives have effectively stifled many on our side from speaking out with even basic expressions of humanity for the Israeli hostages, Jewish-Americans or any acknowledgement/condemnation of Hamas and what they did on 10/7. This seems very on point, based on what I’ve seen in my circle of very-politically vocal, Progressive friends. Almost nobody (except for my Jewish friends) made even a peep about the atrocities of 10/7. And most, immediately responded with Pro-Palestine messaging, criticisms of Israel and language that frames Hamas in “Resistance” terms, casts Israelis/Jews as “White” and “Colonizers” and uses “Zionist” as a catch-all, epithet etc. Framings that basically make it easy to hand-wave away real concerns about Anti-Semitism and pretend like Jews don’t have a 3,000 year old connection to the land that is every bit as valid as Palestinians. It’s really brought home the fact that the Left is just as blind on AntiSemitism as we are on Racism, Misogyny, Transphobia etc. And in many ways, it’s even worse for Anti-Semitism, because some deeply Anti-Semitic shit has become absolutely central to stances that one is expected to support/adopt in order to be a good Progressive.
We are supposed to be able to “walk and chew gum at the same time” and have multiple conversations at once etc. But that seems to go right out the window if you want to talk about Hamas/Anti-Semitism, in addition to the suffering of Palestinians. The whole environment kinda reeks of casual Anti-Semitism.
Scout211
When that happens on my iPad, it often gets fixed when I clear my browser cache. Have you tried that? Or if you are using Safari, try switching to Chrome or another browser. Juicers have been complaining about Safari recently. I use Chrome and no problems this morning. So far.
rikyrah
Good![]()
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Taniel (@Taniel) posted at 11:42 PM on Tue, May 28, 2024:
A Democratic lawmaker in Texas voted for legislation targeting LGBTQ people. She just lost her re-election race overwhelmingly in a Dem primary.
The winner, Lauren Ashley Simmons, is LGBTQ herself, and a labor organizer. https://t.co/nyuz1Wk5Xp
(https://x.com/Taniel/status/1795676965346959773?t=I2OUtQnZeEVNyWHR-jKM5A&s=03)
rikyrah
Jasmine Crockett’s Anger Translator (@Needle_of_Arya) posted at 5:29 AM on Wed, May 29, 2024:
the biopic “Reagan”(2024) is essentially a labor of love created by former sycophants and starring a few otherwise unemployable conservatives, and conservatives in the twilight of their careers
released not coincidentally in the 40th anniversary of his curb-stomping of Mondale
(https://x.com/Needle_of_Arya/status/1795764291624161637?t=g4fGMcoYJXj6qdOIaRPnvw&s=03)
Baud
@rikyrah:
Nice. We are awesome.
rikyrah
nope, won’t beg silly ass progressives for votes (@reesetheone1) posted at 7:54 PM on Mon, May 27, 2024:
White.
Voters.
Can.
End.
Maga.
Any.
Time.
They.
Want.
To.
They could give Biden 2006 midterm levels of support and it’s game over. https://t.co/lL0OZ2KU9f
(https://x.com/reesetheone1/status/1795257188237398315?t=fAaoTsKVcec6uGUvEtBo_w&s=03)
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: White women voters can do that. Instead they will make #notallwhitewomen hashtags trend while lecturing us.
catclub
I still think Biden should have ads comparing conditions of employment, the stock market and interest rates in 1984 when Reagan said it was morning in America, versus NOW. Now is MUCH better. that Black unemployment graph is one example.
Ksmiami
@Baud: A lot of American idiots think they’re temporarily stymied millionaires, so they vote with GOP oligarchs.
Ksmiami
@rikyrah: I’m trying. So many religious white women are fools.
Ksmiami
@schrodingers_cat: Agreeing with you completely. It’s not his mess and he’s dealt with it the best he could. HAMAS is a terrorist group full stop.
Geminid
@Ksmiami: I think one mistake Biden and his team made was underestimating Hamas’s willingness to sacrifice the people they claim responsibility for in order to win the battle for public opinion.
munira
@Shane in SLC: Yes – it isn’t working on my iphone or on my sister’s either.
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
Liberals and centrists said for months that there was “nothing Biden could do”. Then it turned out there were a whole range of things Biden could do – Leahy laws, withholding weapons, a commitment to enforcing sanctions for war crimes, recognizing Palestine in the UN, treating Palestinians as human beings in statements and speeches.
So now we get “there’s nothing he could do because his hands are tied politically”. That may or may not be true but it isn’t the same as “there is nothing Biden can do”.
You were all so quick to dismiss the protestors, but from where I’m sitting the protestors understood the reality of this situation much more than their critics did. There is a lot the US “could” do. The US has no will or desire to do any of the things they could do, but that’s different than “can’t”. Of course we “can”. We don’t want to. So just say that.
Scout211
@Shane in SLC: @munira:
My iPad was fine but I started having the same thing when I switched to my iPhone. I cleared the cache and then restarted my phone and it stopped crashing. For now.
Kay
Even the oft repeated, insulting claim that the protestors “didn’t understand” the interests of people in other countries was wrong. That’s only true if one considers Israel and the US the only countries that matter. Public opinion in much of the world on Gaza is much closer to the protestors than it is to Israel and the US. So, from where I’m sitting, having read both sides extensively, the people who were critical of the protestors had the much more narrow, parochial and poorly informed view than the protestors.
In January when the protestors said there were war crimes being committed they were sneered at. Now everyone but the US, Israel and theUK admit there were and are war crimes being committed. Chalk up another one for the protestors, the people who “don’t understand the complexity”.
Will they also be correct on genocide? Well, I don’t know, but they have a pretty godammned good track record so far. I’d stop sneering at them and dismissing them if I were running a country or a college. They’re right a lot.
Soprano2
@Geminid: Lots of people think that’s because they thought they had Ohio rigged but people did stuff ahead of time to prevent it. Who knows?
Soprano2
@schrodingers_cat: I really wish you would say “married white women”, because that’s closer to the truth. Single white women vote a lot more Democratic than married ones do.
Kay
@Geminid:
They made the mistake of chasing the Arab deal instead of working on a ceasefire. They were so married to getting that deal they they lost every bit of crediblity they have. Palestinians think they’re murderous monsters and Israelis think they’re weak and Trump is a better bet. You can’t fall in love with your own deal. You have to be able to walk away. I think to a certain extent the slaughter of the Palestinians MADE them pursue the deal much longer than they should have because they needed to somehow justify these deaths with a broader deal. A version of sunk cost. So many people died they can’t just walk away with nothing, or they’re monsters. Now they’ll get more dead people and no deal. Lose/lose.
Kayla Rudbek
@Shane in SLC: it’s crashing on my iPhone using Chrome, but working fine in Firefox.
Geminid
@Kay: They pushed for that ceasefire as hard as they could from late January on. This notion that chasing a deal with the Saudis was at the expense a ceaefire is flat wrong. The talks with the Saudis were and are complementary to the ceasefire efforts.
topclimber
@Another Scott: Late and maybe covered already, but Algeria is calling for another Security Council ceasefire resolution. So far the US has not automatically announced a veto.
I would love to see Joe go for an abstention on this one (a yes vote is probably a bridge too far).
Kay
@Another Scott:
“Bibi” (aka the government of Israel) has blocked any aid from getting in for months. So Biden and his team thought….what? They would start getting it in? Tons and tons and tons of aid sat on that pier until the pier dislodged and floated away.
I mean obviously they have to do something. They have to impose some kind of sanction. Also obviously they have no intention of doing that under ANY circumstances but that is a DECISION of the United States and one the United States should be accountable for. We have decided to let them starve and die from lack of medical care. The least we could do is own it.
Kay
@Geminid:
I understand this is the US talking point. Again – the proof is in the pudding. Stop saying “as hard as they could“. “Can” and “will” are two different things. Tell me about domestic politics, or how the Palestinians have to be slaughtered because the US wants to limit the influence of Iran, but please don’t tell me humanitarian concerns were a top priority for the Biden Administration. They just weren’t. These people are being sacrificed for a number of reasons. That’s what we’re doing. The least we could do is afford the dead the dignity of admitting it.
I maintain that’s why there was that insane reaction to the protestors. No one wanted to hear about the collateral damage of our latest ME adventure so we lashed out at the 19 year olds. Well, tough shit, Americans. You want to ship 4000 lb bombs with no conditions on their use get used to decapitated children, because that’s daily in Gaza. This is the policy.
Chris
@Kay:
Yep.
Whatever Biden is currently doing is The Most Biden Could Possibly Do, right up until he does something more, at which point the clock resets and we’re supposed to blame the protesters for not being thankful enough to him for doing it, ignoring completely the fact that they were right to say that he could, in fact, be doing more.
Incidentally, this pattern should be familiar to anyone who’s been arguing since 2022 that Biden could and should have been doing more to help Ukraine.
Kay
@Geminid:
You can tell we’re getting used to it -comfortable with it. The photo ops with the US bombs show me that. I had hoped Biden would denounce the US glee with dropping bombs on Palestinian civilians but I guess that’s another thing they “can’t” do. I used to talk with my kids about “can’t” and “won’t”. The difference. It’s important in terms of accepting accountability.
schrodingers_cat
@Soprano2: If you don’t vote R why do you need so many disclaimers? As they say if it doesn’t apply, let it fly. I don’t see white men on this blog demanding the same
If a majority of white women had voted for HRC, she would be completing her second term now.
Kay
@Chris:
The protestors never looked at from a narrow US political view. They are just in a different realm than their critics. They look to things like whether France is going to make a move. They understand completely that the US government is a lost cause on this issue. It’s why they push divestment. That’s a workaround, just as it was for apartheid – which the US also delayed.
Geminid
@Kay:
@Kay: I said that the ceasefire was a top priority, and it has been, but a 6-week+ ceasefire would have done a lot to ease the humanitarian crisis you say Biden wasn’t prioritizing.
They relied too much on it though, because even after Burns pushed the Israelis to revise their offer twice Hamas just kept stringing everyone along.
My answer was in response to your claim that the hunt for a deal with Saudi Arabia was a distraction. I remember when someone here speculated about that a couple months ago. It fit your anti-Biden narrative so you grabbed it up and never let go, but it bears no relation to the actual facts of these negotiations.
Brachiator
@Kay:
There’s a poison pill in the Trump Tax Cuts. Corporate tax cuts were made permanent. But if the tax cuts expire, the middle class will take a big hit.
We need to win the White House and the Congress.
Kay
@Geminid:
I would ask you the same question the ICC prosecutor asked yesterday. What would the US response have been if the British had decided to ” solve” the IRA problem with dropping a 4000 bomb on civilians in Ireland?
The difference is the victims. We think these victims are worth less as human beings than Irish victims or Israeli victims. I’m voting for Biden but his team disgusts me with how they are too cowardly to even refer to Palestinians specifically. It’s like they can’t manage to show actual sympathy or concern. I don’t respect or admire that. The spokesperson got all huffy and insulted when he was asked about the incinerated displaced people yesterday. Poor, poor baby. You mean he’s being held accountable for his big grown up foreign policy decisions? My heart bleeds.
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
White people, white men and white women vote for Republicans more than they do for Democrats.
But we don’t have national elections. There are plenty of states where a majority of white women voted for Democrats.
And even white women are not a monolith. The biggest division is between college educated and non college educated white women. There are also divisions based on marital status and whether women have children.
In 2024, reproductive rights and women’s bodily autonomy are clearly and decisively on the table. That white women might vote for their own enslavement is terrifying to contemplate.
Chris
@Kay:
Activists always get dinged as “unrealistic,” “in a bubble,” and “out of touch” for focusing on the actual human consequences of a policy, instead of viewing everything through the all-important prism of “how will this read to the average Iowa diner patron interviewed by the New York Times, and the average New York Times subscriber reading about Iowa diner patrons.”
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: National media and blogs like this don’t give a second thought to applying this type of statistical analysis to other demographic groups. Yes it doesn’t give the whole picture, I agree. But it is not worthless either
New England doesn’t follow this national pattern. Most white people in MA vote D. But it is a pretty good short hand for many states.
Ksmiami
@Geminid: because it’s hard dealing with irrational actors.
Geminid
@Kay: Americans tend to see all Arab lives as cheap. Bashir Assad has done far worse to his own people than what Israel has done in Gaza and people barely notice. With the help of Russian bombers and Iranian drones, he has continued throughout this current war. The ICJ damn sure doesn’t care. Arab blood is cheap unless Israel sheds it
Ed. As for the rhetorical question you would ask me, the answer is obvious.
Chris
@Kay:
Ireland is an interesting analogy in terms of the role of outsiders can play. The U.S. was always torn between a realpolitik policy that had Great Britain as our closest ally, and a large bloc of voters that was sympathetic towards the Irish. Which gave Washington a strong incentive to make sure the situation was resolved in a way that respected both sides. Israel/Palestine is the opposite of that: you have a foreign policy establishment and a strong popular voter bloc that are both pro-Israel instead of being on opposite sides, so the result is a policy that’s been ludicrously lopsided from the start.
The same is true at a more regional level, unfortunately. The Catholics in the Republic of Ireland and the Protestants in the rest of the U.K. were both much more disposed to act as the “adults in the room” to the Republican and Loyalist factions, which means the latter always knew there was a limit to how much they can lean on them for support, even if where exactly that limit was was up for debate. Again, the dynamic in the Middle East is precisely the opposite: the relevant Muslim powers (at various points Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, even Saudi Arabia) have always been thrilled to spend rivers of Palestinian blood for what are essentially PR purposes, and the settlers have only been getting more and more enthusiastic backing from Israel proper (the only exception to that was, of all people, Ariel Sharon: the fact that he was even arguably the voice of reason says everything about how far around the bend the Israeli political spectrum has gone).
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
A lot of national media voter analysis is lazy and stupid. From 2012 through 2020, you would see a lot of stories blandly asserting that women vote for Democrats without taking other factors into account. BTW, this also stupidly minimizes the value of non-white voters.
But Pew Research and other organizations have been doing a deeper dive for years, going beyond exit polls to look at validated voters. And I am not the only one here who follows this more nuanced analysis.
Simplistic national numbers are wrong and must always be rejected.
Not really. Southern states and the evangelical white women vote distorts results. And unfortunately, there are a lot of racist white women in the South who do not want to vote the same way as black people.
There are exit polls that don’t effectively track Hispanic and Asian American voters. So even deeper dives have to be done carefully.
Geminid
@Chris: Sharon was a realist and understood that “separation”- his euphemism for Two States- was a neccessity. That’s why he left Likud and formed a new party.
Their are still plenty of people in Israel’s security establishment who think like Sharon. Retired general Amos Yadlin and former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon are two examples: “security hawks and diplomacy doves,” as Yadlin put it. It’s the only realistic path for Israel, but a majority of Jewish Israelis won’t admit it it. Yet.
This weekend I will try to post the long piece Ami Ayalon wrote for Haaretz back in January. I posted most of it here at the time, but it’s probably even more relevant now.
Kay
@Geminid:
Because the US is bankrolling it and supporting it. It’s a bad comparison unless that’s mentioned, because what’s implied is this is somehow “unfair” to Israel. As long as Israel is wholly dependent on the US for weapons US anti war activists will have an absolutely valid argument for why it’s of vital interest to them. You’ve seen the “not in my name” signs, I take it? Again, to me this i sjust taking responsbility and consequences. If a country accepts US protection that country is also answerable to people in the US. That’s the deal. If Israel wants to go their own way with no interference from humanitarians or US law they’re going to have to get weapons from someone else.
VFX Lurker
@schrodingers_cat: This.
Uncle Cosmo
@Omnes Omnibus:
FTFY, Oh-Oh! :^p
UncleEbeneezer
@Brachiator: Pew’s Validated Voter research confirms that a majority of White Women voted for Trump in 2016 (47-45) and even more so in 2020 (53-46). We can further slice demos by Age, Education, etc., but doing that doesn’t change the fact that a majority of White Women (the collective, “ALL” version), have chosen Trump in every election when he was a POTUS candidate. And that might be the case in 2024, as well, even despite Dobbs.
Kay
@Geminid:
That’s what’s kind of nice about the protestors.They’re actually hopeful. So when people say things like “Arab blood is cheap” they say “yes, but must it stay that way forever?” or another person says “they have been fighting since 1948! A pox on both their houses!” meaning “this upsets me and I don’t like to think about it” the protestors say “yes, they have been fighting since 1948 but what if there were an actual equitable deal offered in good faith?”
I don’t sneer at that. That’s the only reason there’s every any progess. Someone actually believes it could be better.
Geminid
@Kay: You made a statement thst Americans don’t care about Palestinians and I pointed out that we generally don’t care about Arabs anyway. I already understand why Americans should care more about the Palestinians than Syrian Arabs, because we supply Israel with bombs and the jets that drop them.
These considerations do not apply to the ICJ and its indifference to Bashir Assad’s crimes, though, and people in general ought to care about civilians being bombed no matter who is doing it. A lot of “pro-Palestinian” advocates give Assad a pass because he is part of Iran’s “Axis of Resistance,” the same way they ignore crimes by the Iranians and the Houthis.
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
So if it flips to 45/47 white women are off the hook? I’m curious about the focus on exactly 51%. If it’s 51% white women are acceptable Democrats but if it’s 49 they’re not? Is this like an up or down vote on white women and 49% means, what? In the doghouse? What if it’s 51% one cycle and 49% the next? They went from good to bad?
Kay
@Geminid:
I hate the hypocrisy of the Biden team. To me it approaches gaslighting. They can just stop wth the boilerplate, rote recitation of how they are in anguish over civilians casualties. No, they are not. They now know EXACTLY what the result will be of the blank check for Israel. THEY KNOW. So at least have enough respect for the victims to quit with the crocodile tears. That Matthew Miller- gah – I watch him and just cringe on his behalf. He doesn’t even believe what he’s saying.
Kay
Now THIS is interesting:
The rules of the judiciary prevent them from pubicly advocating, so you’re thinking “well, they shouldn’t speak then” EXCEPT:
I knew someone was going to sue on the “Palestinian exception” to political speech. It’s incoherent.
wjca
The most realistic critique of the protesters is: Will their protest move popular opinion in the direction that they desire, so that their goals will be achieved? Rather often, the answer is a flat No. It’s counterproductive, even.
They would do far more to achieve their goals if they spent less time and effort on gestures, and more on the not-flashy grunt work of electing candidates that agree with them. But that takes months, or sometimes years, of slogging away in the trenches, and foregoing immediate face time on TV.
Geminid
@Kay: John Kirby has probably been worse than Miller. Ragip Soylu, the Middle East Eye Istanbul bureau chief, was calling him “comedian John Kirby” back in December.
Kay
@Geminid:
Hes too clownish for me to even watch. He reminds me of all those Bush spokespeople when Iraq started to go bad for the US. Pure gaslighting.
Kay
@wjca:
This is not true and has never been true. Americans have disapproved of every single civil rights/human rights protest, ever. Everyone joining your team simply isn’t how this works. They are the vanguard. They will always be in front. They have a completely different role than organizers. Everything doesn’t run like a political campaign. They have no political representation- neither party actually believes there will ever be a 2 state solution.
Manyakitty
@Geminid: thank you.
Brachiator
@wjca:
People used to say this about Civil Rights protests. It was bullshit then.
It still is.
tam1MI
Kay has been expending a lot of self-righteous verbiage dodging the issue that Uncle Ebenezer brought up, so I am going to put the question to her bluntly:
How do the protestors plan to deal with the worrying and rising amount of Anti-Semitism in their ranks? And how should we deal with the same on the left?
Because wild statements about how the protestors are all so right and perfect and the world is against us and anybody who expresses any sort of concern about the protestors tactics and rhetoric is a Bad Evil Centrist Normie isn’t going to cut it.
tam1MI
Way to completely erase the hard work and real achievements of the NAACP.
Demonstrations and Civil Disobedience are but one prong of a multi-pronged effort that any successful movement for change engages in. Putting all your eggs in the “Flashy Demonstrations” basket is a recipe for failure.
Kay
@tam1MI:
I;ll ask you -are you at all concerned with the rising anti Muslim bigotry being ginned up by some Israel supporters on the US Right? Nikki Haley wants all Palestinians obliterated. Gone. Huge Israel supporter. Because she behaves like this and supports genocide does that discredit all Israel supporters? I say
“NO” but according to your rule she does. Tom Cotton killed a federal judge’s appointment for no other reason than the judge was Muslim. Cotton is a huge Israel supporter. Are you concerned about that? Are you doing anything to address the bigots among Israel’s supporters? No? Then why is it my job to do so for the protestors?
Does your rule apply to Israel’s supporters? Do the far Right bigots among them discredit all Israel supporters? Of course not. So why would you apply that standard to supporters of Palestinians?
Kay
@tam1MI:
The protestors were right about two very important things – they were right that Biden absolutely can take action to limit civilian casualties – he’s choosing not to- and they were right that Israel committed war crimes. I’m old enough to remember WAY back in January on this blog when they were sneered at for saying both those things. Now these TRUTHS they told are just accepted but when they said these things they were savaged for it – arrested, beaten up, suspended from school, threatened with not being hired.
Hillary Clinton should apologize to them. She was 100% wrong.
tam1MI
@Kay: We on the left and the protestors cannot control what people on the right do. We can however, control what we do and the protestors can control what they do.
Now kindly answer the question.
Kay
@tam1MI:
They don’t support politicians or either party in the US because they believe neither Party will or can address this. They have some historical backing on that. Both parties have taken the exact same approach for 50 years. How has that worked out for any of these parties? Good?
They do not believe the United States political system will solve this – they think the US makes it worse and prolongs the conflict. That’s why they advocate for divestment. They think that pressure has a shot at succeeding. You’renever going to reach them with appeals to vote for Democrats. They say Democrats have been in power plenty and have never improved this situation in any way at all. They think a coalition of other countries may be better positioned to actually improve the situation.
Kay
@tam1MI:
A comparable situation is if i confronted every Israel supporter and demanded they denounce all of the bigoted Israel supporters in the US congress or in the GOP – “do you hate Palestinians or Muslims?! Tom Cotton and Nikki Haley support your position!”
If it doesn’t make sense for both cases then it doesn’t make sense. The protestors are no more responsible for the anti Semites among them than John Fetterman is responsible for Nikki Haley’s calls for genocide of Muslims.
O. Felix Culpa
The erasure of recent history is impressive. There WAS a ceasefire, and HAMAS broke it on October 7th. They mowed down a bunch of 19- and 20-year-olds at a dance party. Those kids will never get to protest anything, righteously or otherwise. Hamas slaughtered men, women, children, and babies on that day, and committed brutal sexual crimes. They kidnapped several hundred more; I doubt that many of those that haven’t been released still survive, and their deaths may be a mercy.
Hamas planned and executed this slaughter this knowing how Bibi and the Israeli government would likely respond. They willfully endangered their own people. So I find it hard to hold Biden culpable for players he doesn’t control, who intentionally set this shitstorm off. And I find it borderline slanderous to suggest he doesn’t care about the fate of Palestinian civilians. Biden may have had a blind spot with respect to reflexive support for Israel, but he is a man who has lost children of his own. Unfortunately, he is also constrained by many factors at home and abroad. He may not be handling the I/P crisis as well as many of us would like, but I do not think he is callously indifferent to Palestinian lives. It’s not in character.
I too wish Biden would invoke the Leahy Act and do whatever is in his power to stop the carnage. But the principal players are Hamas and Israel. They can declare a ceasefire whenever they want to. Sadly, their actions suggest that they are the parties who are callously indifferent to Palestinian lives and who should be held accountable.
tam1MI
@Kay:The protestors are no more responsible for the anti Semites among them than John Fetterman is responsible for Nikki Haley’s calls for genocide of Muslims.
Both Fetterman and the protestors can do the same thing – they can denounce the Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. But of course Fetterman and Haley aren’t working together in support of a common goal, like the protestors are. A better analogy might be to say if we should hold the Republican party accountable for Haley’s calls for genocide, which, in the absence of the Republican party denouncing such a call, is reasonable to do. You keep saying the the Democrats have to “take responsibility” for what different Democratic politicians have said that you disagree with (see: Hillary Clinton). Why shouldn’t the protestors be held to the same standard? Are they really so hard up for allies that they roll out the welcome mat for blatant Anti-Semites?
Geminid
@Kay: The Democratic Party’s leadership does believe in a Two-State solution, as do the EU countries and half the Arab countries. But Democrats do not provide representation here to the protesters because they believe in a one-state solution, a single Palestinian state instead of Israel and not alongside it. This has been the case for years, and Western encouragement of the Palestinians’ maximalist goals has contributed to the deadlock in the Middle East.
Einat Wilf writes about this in her book The War of Return. As a young woman, Einat Wilf worked on Yitzhak Rabin’s team that negotiated the Oslo Accords in the 1990s, and she served in the Knesset ten or so years ago as an ally of Ehud Barak. She’s a very cogent speaker and writer, worth checking out if you stay interested in the larger problem. She reminds me some of you.
tam1MI
Haven’t you heard? Only Democrats have agency!
Sally
@Kay: This is so true – I was thinking of protests from Vietnam on. The protesters have always been slammed as “pinko, commie, hippie, traitor …. scum “. And the protesters have been right! I ask my conservative acquaintances “tell me when these pinko hippies have ever been wrong – just once!” Having been one of them, makes my blood boil.