John Oliver Show About Trump’s Second Term (Project 25)Reader Interactions
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
One way or another, he’s a liar.
Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.
Republicans cannot even be trusted with their own money.
I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.
Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!
We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.
My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.
The real work of an opposition party is to oppose.
An almost top 10,000 blog!
If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.
The republican caucus is covering themselves with something, and it is not glory.
Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.
There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you do not.
Hey Washington Post, “Democracy Dies in Darkness” was supposed to be a warning, not a mission statement.
“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.
Giving in to doom is how we fail to fight for ourselves & one another.
Bad people in a position to do bad things will do bad things because they are bad people. End of story.
It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!
’Where will you hide, Roberts, the laws all being flat?’
Petty moves from a petty man.
People identifying as christian while ignoring christ and his teachings is a strange thing indeed.
Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.
Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?
Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?
Splitting Image
Sort of. In the sense that the youngest of the numerous women who have accused Trump of rape was 13 at the time. A 12-year-old has thus far not surfaced.
These people know who they are supporting.
scav
Or, is it somehow that Trump somehow gets them to defend, if not extol, whatever 12-year-old villainy he chooses to express. I mean, cmon, hints of incest is one of his longest leitmotifs.
smith
This has not been established. Known facts about his relationship to Epstein, as well as his creepy relationship with his daughter, suggest he is cut from the same cloth. The Grand Jury transcripts from the Epstein case are due to be released next month, and may add more to the picture.
scav
we’ve all had the same coffee!
$8 blue check mistermix
Clearly I’m not as up on Trump’s rape allegations as I should be…
TeezySkeezy
Hasta la vista…oh wait, she didn’t mean *that*. Not that he doesn’t deserve it.
Parfigliano
The church knew for years. They didnt care because the guy’s a cash cow. Now its too public so the church acts.
RaflW
If she told the board in 2005 and 2007 about the abuse and her age, and they left it alone, even if the current membership of the board is different people, doesn’t she have a cause of action to sue the crap out of them?
Possibly on the duty of care, from way back, but in terms of now, isn’t lying (‘we didn’t know’) to the church members and the public itself a tort? Take ’em to the cleaners, Cindy. Hitting them in the pocketbook is about all these money grubber mega-churchers really get stung by.
Chris
Pretty sure the only reason the church is acting is because they’re suddenly under a bunch of public pressure.
And the reason they’re for Trump isn’t that he hasn’t crossed the line of molesting a 12 year old girl. For a lot of them, the reason they’re for Trump is that they know he’s exactly the sort of person who would, and very well may have already. Just like so many of the people they like in their churches.
dc
This should have been a criminal matter, I assume the statute of limitations is long over for this crime.
hueyplong
@$8 blue check mistermix: It’s difficult to type a sentence about Trump that doesn’t fail to account for the possibility that the truth may well be much worse. I, personally, would wait for Ivanka’s tell-all memoir before typing “Trump is vile, but he’s not ‘fucks 12 year old girls.’”
Really looking forward to this particular era being unpleasant history best not brought up.
RaflW
@Chris: They also know he’s aligned with the judicial movement that, allowed to continue stacking courts with ideologues, incompetents, and freaks, will make it so that churches are likely to prevail in sweeping these sorts of abuses under the rug. Oh, and courts that will punish ‘sluts’ and queer people.
Redshift
Morris was also a “”faith advisor” for Trump. Which is no surprise to anyone, I’m sure.
Citizen Alan
@Chris:
And the reason they’re for Trump isn’t that he hasn’t
crossed the line ofbeen caught molesting a 12 year old girl.Baud
Some day, one of these many child molesting right wing pastors will also be a drag queen, and you’ll be sorry.
Annie
I’m not as sure as you are that T**** hasn’t abused a 12 year old.
dmsilev
@$8 blue check mistermix:
A good rule of thumb is that however bad you think Trump is, he’s actually worse.
Kay
@dc:
Exactly. They do it deliberately – they wait for the case to time out THEN do the big phony apology.
Always. Smarmy, creepy liars. They make my skin crawl.
RaflW
@Redshift: This is why he resigned. Damage control to distance himself from the guy who’s ‘anointed’ to bring about armageddon.
Kay
mister mix I’m glad you’re posting regular again – thanks.
RaflW
@dc: @Kay: I thought I read that because it involves a minor (at the time) that statutes of limitation have been amended and it’s lifetime indictable?
But, I assume it requires an amenable D.A. and a complainant willing to press charges?
smith
@$8 blue check mistermix: A partial list of facts to make one pause:
jonas
For conservative Christians, the solution to this terrible situation is pretty obvious: she should have been forced to marry him back then. Then there would have been no problem. She wouldn’t have been a Lolita-esque cocktease in the eyes of the Lord, and he wouldn’t have been tempted to sin with a Lolita-esque cocktease in the eyes of the Lord. Now she’s no longer a virgin and he’s unemployed. Happy, libs?
sdhays
Nominated!
lollipopguild
Trump has no problem talking out loud about having sex with his daughter, trump once bragged about walking in on teenaged girls in their dressing room at one of his beauty contests. His cult members have no problem with any of this.
jonas
@smith: And recall that in an interview the other day, Trump vowed to declassify all the 9/11 documents (I’m sure his Saudi pals were *thrilled* with that little gaffe), as well as everything related to the JFK assassination (which I didn’t realize were still classified, but wevs), but then suddenly walked back saying he would do the same for the Epstein material.
Yes, Donald. That could get awkward, couldn’t it?
N.B. you can bet your firstborn that if he had any inkling something in there could damage the Clintons or other Democrats, he’d be all over it like stink on shit. But I think he’s worried about it damaging someone else, and since he cares about no-one but himself, it’s pretty safe to say who that is.
JPL
@smith: I imagine trump will call a few judges and order them to stop the release. He’ll at least try.
jonas
@Splitting Image: Not sure, but wasn’t that supposed to have happened at Epstein’s place? Yeah, that story was deep-sixed pretty fast after, IIRC, the plaintiff got all sort of death threats and shit and withdrew the complaint.
JaySinWA
@dc: Nope no statute of limitations issue, but this is Texas after all, so probably not happening.
The WAPO article is very abbreviated. Here’s the scoop from the Daily Beast:
Baud
I’m starting to think Jesus made a mistake saving people no questions asked.
OzarkHillbilly
Speaking of rapists getting their comeuppance: (much more at the link)
Well done, Angela. Very well done
rikyrah
Video about Jared and the extent of his ‘fund’
Not just Saudi Arabia 😒😒
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNR6rG1H/
TeezySkeezy
@lollipopguild: Part of the problem is many of them don’t believe it is true. We sometimes get trapped projecting our own information onto them and assume they just don’t care, but their media ecosystem doesn’t expose them to that stuff and if those facts do occasionally reach them by accident they dismiss it as anti trump fake news. Seems crazy they just disbelieve he’s a sick evil fuck given all the evidence, but they get a trickle of that reality and a firehose of bullshit that lets them imagine he’s just a conservative guy with an outlandish style and thats what the libs hate, not the fact that he is actually a monster.
mrmoshpotato
These “elders” are fucking piles of shit too.
Sure! Cheat on your wife! Our “Jesus” approves!
OzarkHillbilly
@RaflW: You got to remember: It’s Texas.
rikyrah
This muthaphucka is a PEDOPHILE.
SHE👏🏾WAS👏🏾12👏🏾YEARS👏🏾OLD👏🏾
TWELVE 👏🏾 YEARS 👏🏾OLD👏🏾
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Tell me you watch Equalizer without telling me you watch Equalizer.
SomeRandomGuy
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
This is so nominated. So very, very nominated.
Tony Jay
rikyrah
@RaflW:
Sue sue sue 😡😡
mrmoshpotato
@RaflW: And punch all of these disgusting men in the groin for good measure!
smith
@JaySinWA: One thing that stood out for me when the story first broke, is that the guy claimed that he’d been forgiven by the church and the girl’s father. Supposedly the father decided, in the spirit of Christian forgiveness, to overlook the despoiling of his property. No one asked the girl herself if she forgave him, of course, and the woman she is now says her father never did either.
Kay
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’m not clear on where it occurred. This is from her statement:
scav
Gateway Church?
ooooohhh, we’ve heard ever so much about those Gateway Churches leading one on to harder and harder sins . . . , .
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Actually, I’ve never watched Equalizer. Haven’t even the foggiest idea of what it’s about.
Chris
Speaking of pedophilia in high places:
I’ve been watching an old British spy show from the seventies. The last episode I saw revolved around a pedophile, an American general living in England. There’s a whole complicated three-way game around him between MI5, MI6, and CIA, and a whole bunch of extraneous complications like the fact that the general is next in line to be a senior presidential adviser, or the fact that the KGB knows everything about it… but at the end of the day, the bottom line is that MI5 simply isn’t willing to let the man walk away from a pedophilia charge. Even if it offers opportunities like the CIA’s gratitude or running the general as a triple agent. They even note that they would’ve happily looked the other way for any number of crimes, but you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
It says something about how cynical the world’s become that my first thought was “there is no way in hell that’s your real reason. There are way too many pedophiles in high places and the security services’ response to all of them has almost always been to either cover for them or blackmail them. Nobody who cares enough about justice to see a case like this prosecuted just on general principle could ever have risen as high as you have in MI5, and if they had, they’d be tossed out on their ass by the rest of the service the moment they tried.”
scav
@smith: Sweetie, it’s the father that gives the bride away in the official church service. Are you really going to interfere with the man’s right to dispose of his property as he sees fit? So he didn’t insist on the little wedding bow being added to his gift, but hey!
Chris
@Baud:
I liked the old show, from the eighties. But basically no one remembers that one. I don’t even think most of the movies’ fans know that it’s a remake of an old TV show.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Robyn McCall, an enigmatic woman with a mysterious background, uses her extensive skills to help those with nowhere else to turn. McCall comes across to most as an average single mom who is quietly raising her teenage daughter. But to a trusted few, she is “The Equalizer” — an anonymous guardian angel and defender of the downtrodden, who’s also dogged in her pursuit of personal redemption.
Kay
Oklahoma.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: I had gotten the impression that it occurred in Texas, maybe falsely, due to the fact(?) that they are both still (?) in Texas and have been there for some time(?).
My impressions and the memories they create aren’t always accurate. Either way, reading it the first time was enough for me, seeing as I’m not going to be prosecuting this case in a court of law.
JaySinWA
Here’s a link to the original story (with updates) in the Wartburg Watch.
I was 12 years old…
Much more at the link
Kay
@OzarkHillbilly:
Oh, absolutely. I just thought neither article was clear on where it occurred so I checked.
JaySinWA
@Kay: At least some of it happened in Texas
ETA from the Wartburg link above,
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Thanx. It sounds worthy of a look see.
@Kay: Well that explains the whole extramarital bit too. Thanx for the enlightenment. I think. ;-)
Old Man Shadow
I honestly don’t think many of them would see anything wrong with a grown man having sex with a child if that child is post-pubescent so long as they were married.
Consent is not a strictly necessary requirement or factor in their moral ethical equation for sex. Just marriage and the ability of the woman to have a child from the act.
Kay
The victim says the church limited their investigation into the pedophile’s behavior for the years between 1982 and 1987, which seems insane and shouldn’t be permitted.
Come on. There are others. She was 12 years old! This wasn’t a one-off.
lollipopguild
@TeezySkeezy: So many have hitched themselves to trump 100% that that they are not able to leave him for any reason.
Old Man Shadow
@smith: Seems like dad should have reported the matter to the police instead of the church and the man should have gone to jail instead of “Jesus PR Redemption Camp!”
Kay
Now that he’s confessed we can expect indictments out of Oklahoma and Texas, right?
Chris
@Old Man Shadow:
We have literally had conservatives come out and say in horrified tones that liberals think literally any sex thing is okay as long as they’re consent involved! That’s all they care about! Consent! Like it’s supposed to be some big monstrosity.
Old Man Shadow
@Kay: Yeah, but if they don’t look, they can pretend they’re “SHOCKED! SHOCKED!” when a dozen or more other victims come forward.
Kay
@Old Man Shadow:
These are the people running health care for women in Texas and Oklahoma – people who absolutely hate women and girls. These fucking nutcase abusive clerics give orders to physicians in those states.
Betty
@Kay: It’s almost always a trusted family member or friend. Rarely ever a stranger.
Old Man Shadow
@Chris: Yeah, and those are the ethics at play. Two completely opposite world views, simplified as:
Obedience to authority: Sex is okay if the two individuals are opposite sex, they are married to one another, and it is procreative.
Freedom: Sex is okay if everyone involved consents enthusiastically.
Obviously there are other ethics that folks add in, but for extremists on their side, that’s about it. Age isn’t really a factor so long as you check off those three boxes.
JaySinWA
@smith: Cindy refutes the claim that her father gave his blessing.
That doesn’t sound like forgiveness or blessing. It’s resignation.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Kay:
Yep. Also, this was a megachurch. Lots of pastors. I’m guessing if the guy at the top did this, so did a few of them.
Baud
@Old Man Shadow:
Does it have to be enthusiastic? Doesn’t seem to leave room for consensual pity sex.
TBone
@OzarkHillbilly: this gives a really good history of a guy from Texas (former judge & politician) who died June 7. He was absolutely instrumental in forging the SBC political power grab. He was molesting young men at the same time. We should celebrate his death. It’s a long read but I learned a lot.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2024/june/paul-pressler-dead-disgrace-sbc-conservative-resurgence.html
Trollhattan
@smith: This was precisely the reveal I thought had doomed Trump’s 2016 run, and little did I suspect the massive under-rugging that would make it go “poof” before November.
scav
@Baud: It was a very oversimplified dichotomy. Because the church in this and so many other instances comes down hard in favor of all sorts of unmarried sexual activities, so long as “forgiven!” (patent-pending, offer not available to non-members)
Betty
Coincidentally as this story comes out, Paul Pressler head of the Southern Baptist Convention just died. He was also an abuser and covered up lots of abuse within the church over the years. He was a significant player in increasing the political power of evangelicals. Good riddance.
Old Man Shadow
@TBone: It makes me wonder how many of the founders of the SBC were busy raping their slaves and how many got away with it because the white supremacist state and culture made sure those women and girls had no voice.
Chris
@Old Man Shadow:
Yeah, I’ve heard this described as a fairly good explanation for why conservatives (the ones that aren’t just trolling – this applies especially to low-infos rather than deeply politically engaged folk) find modernity upsetting and frustrating. To them, “morality” is a list of actions that have been decreed from on high to be Good and a list of actions that have been decreed from on high to be Not Good. Increasingly inclusive civil rights means that what’s on what list keeps changing, and they find it confusing and just want the list to stand still.
Another Scott
@RaflW: I’m reminded of the Catholic Church in Boston going through some things. And the Boy Scouts of America going through some things. And Rep. Matt Gaetz is going through some things.
I don’t see why these predatory protestant churches should be different. And I would argue that they must not be different – nobody is above the law.
Grr…,
Scott.
TeezySkeezy
@lollipopguild: I think on a conscious level most believe he’s not as bad as we say. But yes, on the unconscious level theres that cult mentality dissonance that causes them all that anxiety and rage they just transfer to the cult’s enemies (us). I have seen this with family members. I ask them, do you really think its all fake just to destroy Trump? Don’t you think he might actually be a piece of shit? Theres a moment…a wavering uncertainty…then the rage and bitterness drives it back down and they are even madder.
TBone
@Betty: I just posted about that above 💙😊 #70 – the article is a deep dive into how power was consolidated.
Martin
“You don’t want to disrupt peoples lives because there’s phony stuff in there.”
Really? Is there a specific phony thing involving a 13 year old, Donald? Trump is 100% the kind of guy who felt entitled enough to think he could get away with that, and we know Maxwell recruited at least one girl from Mar A Lago. The Access Hollywood tape was not ‘locker room talk’. Can we all get with the program already? It’s been 8 years.
Belafon
My son does drag, and one of the rules of the culture is never meet certain groups, such as children, in private.
JWR
I haven’t read any of the links, but this bit from an NBC story caught my eye:
Ah, so the sin was dealt with. Good Lord these people are vile!
TBone
@Old Man Shadow: 🤮😡😳😡
smith
Um, and also is capable of consent. Twelve-year-olds aren’t, even if their abusers claim they consented.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@$8 blue check mistermix:
Also, this was a megachurch.
Or as they’re often referred to:
Six Flags Over Jesus.
Belafon
@Martin: I remember something about Trump walking into the dressing room of a teen pageant he was sponsoring.
SiubhanDuinne
@Chris:
With the divine Edward Woodward? Boy howdy, I sure remember it!
tam1MI
@lollipopguild: Sunk cost.
Kay
@$8 blue check mistermix:
Had either states law enforcement pursued it in 2007 he would have been a registered sex offender with a tier – a serious tier too – she was under 12 for parts of it. In Ohio he would be Level 2 – has to register for 25 years.
They don’t prosecute these people because they don’t care about girls.
TBone
@OzarkHillbilly: ✊
Baud
Obama got more scrutiny for Rev. Jeremiah Wright than Trump is going to get with this guy.
Old Man Shadow
@smith: Yeah, sorry, I should have spelled that out rather than expect everyone to know that “consent” requires the ability to meaningfully give “consent” (of legal age and not under the influence to the degree that their ability is removed) and that no coercion is taking place.
Can’t take it for granted that everyone will know what “consent” entails.
SiubhanDuinne
@Old Man Shadow:
All of them, Katie.
scav
@JWR: Pleading Benefit of Clergy is a long established ploy of the Christian higher ups — so much so that they didn’t much mind the rabble sneaking in and playing the card.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Baud:
IOKIYAR
smith
@Kay: They don’t care much about boys, either.
SiubhanDuinne
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
LOL
Old Man Shadow
@Baud: The media is mostly corporate and corporate wants Trump to win and wanted Obama to lose.
I also think everyone but the true MAGAt believers knows that Trump’s Christianity is cynical bullshit and completely transactional.
Tony G
It was all the fault of that 12-year-old girl — first for tempting that man of God, and then for complaining about it. She’s the one who will burn in hell, not him. It is certainly a mystery why Godly Evangelicals are the foundation of Trump’s base. I can’t figure out why!
smith
@Tony G: It’s a basic tenet of the patriarchy that women are to be held responsible for men’s behavior.
zhena gogolia
@Old Man Shadow: Reading Vanity Fair, which used to be quite anti-Trump under Graydon Carter. In this issue, there are three separate articles that include digs at Biden. One is about cricket; one is about Ayo Edebiri; one is about the executive succession process at Disney. In other words, they have nothing to do with Biden. But each article pointedly includes a reference to how old he is, or how disgusted we all are that we have to choose between these two old farts again. Accident? I think not.
Baud
@smith:
Little girls too.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
Definitely not an accident.
ETA: It’s like how all the media dudes ganged up on Hillary. Elites are fearful of the serfs rising up.
JaySinWA
@smith: A patriarchy with women enforcers as well.
Morris’s wife called Cindy to forgive her, as if the young girl was the one to blame for her husband’s behavior.
JWR
@scav: Read a bit of your link, and it was pretty much what I expected it to be. I suppose there are ways to rightfully use “Benefit of Clergy” laws as a get-out-of-jail-free card, but like many other edicts, is just too tempting not to use and abuse.
SiubhanDuinne
@JaySinWA:
The first time I read that, I simultaneously felt like punching that woman, sobbing, and throwing up. Just … way beyond vile.
smith
@JaySinWA: Not surprising. Both girls and boys in that social environment are acculturated to a misogynistic world view, and it takes a lot to break out of it when they are older.
Matt McIrvin
@zhena gogolia: All those media outlets that thrived on being anti-Trump want him back in office so they can thrive on being anti him again. They crave the drama and stupidity to report on.
Of course, it’s entirely possible that he’ll send in goons to shoot everybody and burn the building down this time, but they’re betting he’s too lazy to bother.
Suzanne
Dude. Y’all know that the right wing/manosphere is freaking out about women marrying and having kids “too late” or not at all. They loooooove the idea of sex with young girls.
It’s only “grooming” when boys are targeted. When girls are targeted, it’s just what Horny Jeebus would have wanted. Or something.
eversor
@Parfigliano:
From my experience it’s not just the preachers. It’s common with the congregation as well. It’s not just about the money.
I speak to other people that went through a similar situation as I did and it was never a gay teacher or a drag queen. The common threads are always it was a preacher, it was a respected member of the Church, or it was a very Christian relative. In the case of a friend of the family it was someone from Church.
So unmasking one person can often lead to a situation where you realize each Sunday is a meeting of pedos and rapists. You very much run the risk that opening that can of worms is going to get you ejected from Church, do permanent damage to Christianity, and hurt people in your social circle.
What happens next is the shunning of your family. As in almost all these situations the wife is not submitting to her husband as the husband is the head of the family like Christ is the head of the Church (yes that’s New Testament, women bend the knee for Jesus) they come after her first. Then they find all the non Christian stuff your family is up to and blame the entire thing on that. The predator is given a private talking to and spends a lot of time getting in touch with Jesus and everone sweeps it under the rug.
It does not end for the victims or their family. You’re still being looked at with a microscope. And as Church magically contains your family friends and often their coworkers there is a strong urge to put it all behind you and then demonstrate performative Christianity. If there is charity event you donate. If there is a soup kitchen you staff it. You wear matching suits and dresses to Church. If there is a Church camp you go to it. To stop the pressure outside the Church you allow yourself to be sucked deeper into the Church.
It also makes you more likely to be a victim. It was after it was quasi known what happened to me and a few friends that all sorts of men became really interested in us. They weren’t preachers. They were college educated nominally liberal types. Who magically ran all these soup and charity events and loved giving gifts to kids and having them hang out at their homes. But since they were the soup kitchens vs wives submit anti gay types and there would be multiple boys and girls at the homes it had to be safe.
That nice person is here for the poor. Yeah warning sign. Run for the hills. There will be multiple children. Also a warning sign. He gives gifts. Yeah run screaming air raid siren.
But once you accuse one person your ability to do it to another is limited. You’re already the problem child and if you do it again you get told you’re making it up. So there’s a second tier of predators in the congregation who prey upon those who are already victims. And because they have years long records of doing all the charity and hippy good works instead of ranting about gays they sail under the radar.
There’s really no good solution to it as what goes public is the tip of the iceberg and always about some famous figure which puts a target on you. It’s not just that. It’s the Sunday School teachers, it’s the lay leadership, it’s random people in the congregation, it’s the people running the good works outreach, it’s the staff at Christian schools.
The abuse isn’t just kids. It’s often the less well of economically in the Church or around it. Plenty of homeless young adults get sucked in and “saved”. Programs like those and charity is a perfect situation for vast amounts of abuse. If there is a collection going on to help you with a family illness watch your wife and kids! That homeless program, you don’t want to know what happens to the moderately attractive ones in their early 20s.
It goes on and on. You are never safe until you totally leave the Church and learn to avoid it all costs. And it’s not going to stop until we as a society are willing to say “actually Christianity is really bad” and build a museum to the attrocities of Christianity.
I’m not even outraged at the Church anymore about it. I’m outraged at everyone who insists Christianity isn’t one the greatest evils man ever inflicted upon man. Because I realize that until that is the case none of this from pedophilia to Alito is going to stop. So if we aren’t willing to call it evil and confront it, spare talking about the need to treat the symptoms and not the disease.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Women, especially in red states, really should think hard about having romantic relationships with men. He’ll come with a government attached to him.
TBone
@SiubhanDuinne: I once caught a sexual predator in the act. Friend was having a party, went downstairs to basement to smoke and caught the guy with two children of host’s sister. I got the kids outside quickly and asked him for a light. He was really scared but I was literally about to puke from fear and horror – he was a big dude. Long story short, the mother of my friend and her sister accused me of being jealous ! and making up a story. When my friend reported it to the males at the local police station, no written report was made. It was two years before he was caught again in the next County over, where his family wasn’t politically connected. I sob for all the kids who were victims during that two years.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Matt McIrvin:
It’s like printing money. No effort on the part of the “reporter” corps because it doesn’t require nuance. And the clicks/reads/whatever just keep flowing in. Our Corporate Media at its finest.
Hmmm, where/when in history have we seen that play out before?*
*Obvious Rhetorical Question
Gravenstone
Paxton is far more likely to give the bastard a medal as he is to charge him for rape.
Baud
Via reddit, sports is another male dominated culture where abuse is ignored
TBone
@TBone: that was the grandmother of the two girls being assaulted covering for their “family friend” the abuser. Her daughters (my friend and her sister) had also been abused as children while that woman looked away.
RevRick
@Chris: The pressure comes from insurance companies.
Suzanne
@eversor: I will note that a former colleague of Mr. Suzanne, a public educator and sports coach, was arrested for grooming and raping teen girls. Including the daughter of a friend of mine.
There’s a lot of overlap between religion and patriarchy, but patriarchy seems to show up in lots of secular and other-than-Christian spaces, too.
It’s almost like….. all religions are just tools of social and sexual control.
I’ll take my heathen ass elsewhere now.
Gravenstone
@Baud: This is an absolutely golden observation!
Villago Delenda Est
@TBone: Yup, closeted asshole. Fer sure.
Harrison Wesley
@SiubhanDuinne: I’m sure he was in other things, but that series and the movie The Wicker Man are what I remember him for.
RevRick
@Baud: That’s crappy Evangelical theology which pushes the Jesus gets you into heaven line.
The real Jesus was interested in confronting the injustices of the world and in including outcasts. He was very much a here-and-now guy.
SomeRandomGuy
@JaySinWA: I’d bet that you’re not a churchgoer, and I don’t mean that in any bad way.
A woman’s story has caused a pastor to be fired. There will be people furious at the woman whose story was told. The Christian message to say “LAY OFF HER!” is for the wronged party to forgive, and, since the church is acknowledging the wrongdoing, the wronged party is the wife of the pastor, who has been forced to go through this horrible, humiliating ordeal.
You might say “oh, come on, that makes no sense!”
You’re right, it doesn’t. And over time, people will get that. There might be people coming back to her 10, 20, years from now, saying they’re sorry for how they acted, but, people being what they are, I’d be willing to be there will be far more who will never be sorry.
So: with full appreciation that it’s truly noxious to forgive the accuser, as if she had done something wrong, I can’t condemn it. It might be the proper, and wise, course given the situation – but that assumes that Mrs. Morris’ “forgiveness” was of the form “I know you had to do that; I’m sorry it’s going to blow back on you; Imma kickin’ him where it counts (possibly: “metaphorically speaking”) when I get home.”
Another Scott
@eversor: Thanks for your perspective. I’m sorry you want through that abuse. :-(
@Suzanne: I’m sorry that your friend’s family went through that horror as well. :-(
I’m reminded of OSU Wrestling and PSU Football and USA Gymnastics and the Boy Scouts and various cults and on and on. I’m on team Suzanne here – it’s about power and control and patriarchy. It can be expressed in lots and lots of ways; religion is an important one, but not the only one. It needs to be fought everywhere.
My $0.02.
Best wishes,
Scott.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud: The elites are doing everything they can to cause the serfs to rise up. As JFK put it, “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
Geminid
@JaySinWA: Wartburg Watch reports extensively on abuse in Protestant churches. The site is run by two very dedicated Evangelical women.
Suzanne
@RevRick: I have often wanted a term to describe the worldview of *admiration and alignment with the ethics and moral themes espoused by the stories of Jesus of Nazareth*, even if it’s all made up….. but without any requirement or even hint of belief in any of the supernatural elements.
zhena gogolia
@SiubhanDuinne: Have you seen him in Hot Fuzz?
cmorenc
@JPL:
Calling Judge Matthew Joseph Kacsmaryk…who will gladly claim jurisdiction because at some time, surely Epstein’s airplane flew over Kacsmaryk’s district, and good old Matt will be glad to issue a nationwide injunction against the release of the Epstein trascripts.
Harrison Wesley
Let’s be practical. We go with the Jesus we have, not the Jesus we want. Did I get that right?
Harrison Wesley
@Suzanne: Sounds like Ethical Humanism.
scav
@Harrison Wesley: There is the tricky bit that all the evidence we have of the poor guy is wishlists and carefully chosen compilations of specs and rumors.
smith
@cmorenc: I’m skeptical he’d be able to get a court to stop the release entirely, but he might be able to delay it (where have we heard that before?) However, he has a lot on his plate in the next few weeks, and a lot of legal fees to pay, so it might end up being too much for him to manage.
Unfortunately, there are undoubtedly other rich powerful men with a lot to lose if these documents are released, so there could be efforts from other quarters to suppress them.
RevRick
Sexual abuse, harassment and hanky-panky have been going on in the Church since nearly day one. An institution that includes all will inevitably include seriously dysfunctional people. As is true of every other institution.
What matters is if the institution is capable of awareness and correction of the wrongdoing. There was a lot of sexual misconduct in the United Church of Christ in the 60s and 70s, often as a result of pastoral counseling pushed by seminaries in the 40s and 50s as a way to meet a need for mental health care. This backfired spectacularly, because pastors weren’t under supervision the same way a psychologist or psychiatrist is and were grossly unprepared to deal with transference. Inevitably, the unhappy wife would fall in love with the pastor, and he would fall in love with her (because pastors are shit magnets for every parishioner’s dissatisfaction in life). And they would have an affair and it would wreak havoc in the congregation. Pastors would shuffle from church to church repeating this pattern.
Nowadays, under threat from church liability insurers, pastors in the United Church of Christ are required to undergo boundary training once every three years, we have policies against pastors being alone with parishioners, and pastoral counseling has become three sessions and a referral. Other mainline denominations have similar policies. No more giving a child a lift home from youth group meetings.
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: You’ll find that Buddhism can be very close to that. Now, Buddhism does believe in a form of superhero, but not a supernatural one, exactly.
To some form of Buddhists, to see a person hungry is to suffer hunger one’s self, and to feel companionship – if one had a sandwich, splitting it in two (or simply handing it over, if the hunger is sufficient) seems like the right thing to do.
A Buddhist doesn’t worship Buddha like a Christian worships “God,” as the creator and source of all blessings. I won’t go further, because I don’t know anything about the ordinary believer’s beliefs, etc.. Barbara O’Brien of Mahablog.com might have links or resources if you wanted to know more.
Mallard Filmore
deleted.
Suzanne
@Harrison Wesley: Sure, but I do think that there are some thematic elements of Christianity — most especially the nature of sacrifice and suffering — that aren’t really fully spoken to by the framework of ethical humanism.
That’s always what I find lacking about UU-ism, too…. there’s not really a unifying sense of aesthetics. (Using the term here more in line with its philosophical use….. as in what something looks like relating to what it means.)
And the music usually sucks. I’m sorry. They’re really nice people.
Jinchi
I think Ghislane Maxwell could clarify that point, but this is a guy who fantasized about the future size of his infant daughter’s breasts.
Baud
@Suzanne:
Baudism. 100% natural.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@RevRick:
That’s not a description of the “real” Jesus, sounds more like Hippie Jesus. And the Six Flags Over Jesus crowd sure don’t follow that dude.
The “real” Jesus is Republican Jesus!
JFC. 🤦♀️
SpaceUnit
So I guess we’re not here to talk about how good that 10,000 Maniacs album at the top of the post really was.
It’s a fucking masterpiece.
ETA: And I’ll never forgive Natalie Merchant for taking off to pursue a solo career.
OzarkHillbilly
An atheist buddy of mine liked to say he was a member of The Church of God the Almighty and the Utterly Indifferent. That he made the world in 6 days and on the 7th he said, “It’s your problem now.”
He was a funny guy. He and I had a lot of adventures together. Covid took him in 3 days.
RevRick
On a happier note, J and I took our granddaughter to visit the America on Wheels museum. Got some pics of a Dusenberg, a Hupp Mobile, and a Mack Diesel engine. They had displays of 60s muscle cars, bicycles, motorcycles, trucks, a service station, and automobile restoration. Could have spent a lot more time there. The granddaughter thought it was cool.
Suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: Nah, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m not talking about another one of the world’s religions. I’m talking about something that specifically dwells in the aesthetics and themes and cultural fabric of Christianity. A cultural practice, an ethical practice.
Like, example: communion. What is that ritual really about? At its core, it’s about knowing sacrifice, remembrance, “brotherly” (agape) love, the desire to atone on behalf of another, the pain of knowing that maybe you cannot. I’m talking about something that rolls around in that stuff.
The supernatural stuff is the least interesting, and least meaningful aspect of religion for me.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
the real Jesus wanted to cut corporate taxes
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: Wow, that’s a nice description of communion.
japa21
@Suzanne: You are almost exactly describing a Jeffersonian approach. His translation just dispensed with any of the “supernatural” aspect. Not sure what he would have viewed communion as.
SiubhanDuinne
@TBone:
What a horrible story. And how brave and quick-thinking you were. Those poor kids.
japa21
@zhena gogolia: Agreed.
RevRick
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The early Church was really into Hippy Jesus, the evidence of which is a baptismal hymn the apostle Paul cites in Galatians 3:28 — “There is no Jew or Greek, there is no slave or free, there is no male and female.” Written about 20 years after Jesus, it affirmed the hugely countercultural claims that in God’s sight all distinctions of race, class, and gender are bullshit and not part of what is intended.
Villago Delenda Est
@japa21: I second your comment to the always engaging Suzanne. Right on. The supernatural crap gets, inevitably, in the way of the actual message, which modern fundigelicals have no use for, as it’s “woke” to them.
Melancholy Jaques
@smith:
Has it really been covered extensively? Like, what is the ratio of front page articles and cable news minutes about that to the same about Joe Biden’s age?
Has it ever been mentioned on a Sinclair TV station’s local news cast?
Villago Delenda Est
@japa21: Communion? Good chance for a light snack with a chaser on Sunday morning.
Melancholy Jaques
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch:
the real Jesus wanted to cut corporate taxes
And refuse asylum to all refugees.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Melancholy Jaques:
And make it a right that anybody could own a bow & arrow. Or a pilum.
Citizen Alan
@Baud: Jesus didn’t save any of those people. Hw specifically said that on judgment day, there would be people who loudly proclaimed it to be his followers who he would deny and condemn to hell. Creatures like the elders of all these pedophile churches are christians only in the sense that they got dunked in the magic bathtub when they were little kids. But they have never at any point in their miserable lives, even tried to live in a christ -like manner.
japa21
@Villago Delenda Est: Just as a point of interest. I am a fully practicing Catholic who actually does believe in a lot of the supernatural “crap”.
Spanky
@Suzanne:
I LOLed, because it’s true.
japa21
@Citizen Alan: A point the evangelicals refuse to recognize and which Paul also ignored. One of the reasons the RW evangelicals really don’t like the Letter of St James.
Jesus also said that he did not know who would be saved, only His Father knew that.
Sister Golden Bear
That we know of.
dexwood
@OzarkHillbilly: The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent can be found in Vonnegut’s Sirens of Titan. I must have read that 50 years ago, but it stayed in my head bone.
Baud
@japa21:
Trinity firewall
Sister Golden Bear
Another day ending in “y” where the Christofascist Republicans — but I repeat myself — find new ways to legally discriminate against against trans people. Paxton Blocks Title IX Protections For LGBTQ Students
Citizen Alan
@OzarkHillbilly: The original equalizer series was about a dumpy bookish, late middle-aged British man who looked like a retired classics professor played by Edward Woodward but who was secretly a former super-spy who could kill you with his thumb and who decided to while away his free time in retirement by acting as a freelance savior for various desperate people in new york. Then they did a movie remake, in which the character was inexplicably played by Denzel. Washington. Then they even more inexplicably, did a tv remake, in which the character was played by queen latifah.
Suzanne
@japa21: I approach religion like I do any other form of art: none of it’s “real”, as in factual, but it’s “real” as in meaningful. The idea of believing in anything about forming the world in seven days, or that there’s a heaven and hell to maybe go to after we die…. it’s not just that I don’t believe it’s true. It’s that I can’t even get myself in the headspace of “believing” in anything at all. But I also don’t think that belief is even the point. Why would anyone need to believe any of that stuff, or even think about it at all?
Heathen ass resuming STFU now!
eversor
@Suzanne:
The problem is when you look at things you can’t really cut the bad stuff out. God, Jesus, both Testaments argue for patriarchy. Jesus doesn’t care about slavery much either.
That’s the issue. You can’t really pull out a hippy Jesus or humanism from Christianity without getting rid of a whole swath of stuff that’s at it’s core. So either it needs to go completely, it’s name ruined in history, with mesuems and monuments to it’s evils or you just have to accept that we are going to keep having patriarchy, child stealing, slavery, Dobbs, gender roles, and the Alitos and Leos of the world get to keep trying till they get it all. If you aren’t against it at best you are enabling it.
There were good religions. Non expansionist, matriarchal, viewed nature as over man and not man over nature. But each time Christianity crashed into them it was rape, slavery, and genocide. Not just physically but religiously and culturally as well.
If you look at Nazi Germany all the major Christian groups threw in with the Nazis because they had a sexual revolution similar to what’s going on the US now. They threw in with Franco as well. You like at Franco in Spain or the French Revolution and Christianity was on the wrong side of those as well. It’s not odd it’s happening here now. We kept Christianity around and we didn’t allow it to control peoples lives. Now comes the fascism and we deserve it for keeping Christianity. Christianity was on the wrong side of the Russian revolution as well. It’s going to keep happening. Just as Republicans are going to keep Republicaning. It’s leopards biting faces with all the moderates thinking it’s not going to bite their face and then you get Jan 6 and Dobbs, and lololol! Come get some Jesus!
Our hope as Americans is the rapid loss of religion among the younger generations. Especially Christianity. Especially the amount that are outright hostile to Christianity. That’s where the real progress we need as a nation now.
Warblewarble
Was there a 13year old who withdrew accusations against tRUMP in 2015 , under threat?
mapaghimagsik
I started discretely
stalkinglooking for a high school friend. Then I found their facebook timeline full of various right wing memes. A small voice in my head said “Well, what did you expect?”Looking completed.
piratedan
OT but good news….
the American Climate Corps officially kicks off…
https://grist.org/solutions/american-climate-corps-swearing-in-ceremony/
Sure Lurkalot
The John Oliver rant in the previous thread also has a couple of gratuitous digs, like (paraphrasing): “though I’m not thrilled with Biden, he’s much better in comparison which I realize is a very low bar.”
Good on Oliver for elucidating the horrors of Republican plans but IMHO, he’s not saying much except vote for the lesser of two evils. Good advice for the lazy to stay home. We need better advocates.
Citizen Alan
@smith: Yes, but they are willing to rationalize than a 12 year old girl can seduce a pious man of God into a sexual relationship. If sexuality is a choice, however, as they all maintain, it should be impossible fir a boy to seduce a grown man into sex against his will unless the man wanted it
Suzanne
@eversor:
Sure you can.
zhena gogolia
@Sure Lurkalot: He’s about on a level with Jon Stewart for me. In other words, I haven’t listened to a word he’s said in quite a few years.
Sister Golden Bear
@Old Man Shadow:
All of the Katie.
smith
@Warblewarble: Wikipedia has a summary of the various sexual assault accusations against the Felon. Here’s what they say about this case:
You can follow the links there to the news articles referenced.
Baud
@Sure Lurkalot:
https://balloon-juice.com/2024/06/19/good-immigration-news-open-thread-bidens-latest-executive-order/#comment-9225355
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Citizen Alan: Adult pious men are never responsible for their own behavior. It’s always someone else’s fault: any woman of any age, young boys, Satan, the media, Hollywood, etc
Obviously, those poor men are the real victims here. /s
CatFacts
It looks like the Wartburg Watch has published a statement by the victim. I think this is the same one in Mistermix’s post. It’s a weblink not an Adobe document so if you can’t read his link this one might work.
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2024/06/19/a-statement-by-cindy-clemishire-in-response-to-yesterdays-elders-statement-from-gateway/
eversor
@Citizen Alan:
They are still making them with Denzel. I’ve at least seen The Equalizer 3 cross my streaming feeds. I didn’t know about the book that sounds more interesting. I think the movies work because Denzel works.
OzarkHillbilly
@dexwood: I figured he stole it from somewhere. :-) Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.
Citizen Alan
@Suzanne:
Jeffersonian Christianity, perhaps? Not that Thomas Jefferson isn’t problematic for, you know, reasons, but IIRC he did write his own version of the Bible which eliminated all the supernatural elements.
OzarkHillbilly
He did, I have a copy of it in my truck. Not that I have read all of it (it’s very short) I just can’t get thru more than 1/2 a page or so while waiting in the drive thru.
eta: funny thing I noticed, whatever bible he cut the pages from to paste into his own had people harvesting corn. 1500 years or so before corn made it to the Old World.
Gloria DryGarden
@eversor: I think a lot of the same things, but didn’t know as many if the history angles. Jesus didn’t care about slavery? I thought he had an equal footing and value for everyone, platform..but I don’t enjoy much reading about that religion. Too much negative influence in usa from “Christianity”. I think it’s mostly a big cult.
I don’t mind the inner teachings of personal spiritual work, including the Jesus ones, but I just get tidbits from heretic teachers teaching from the Aramaic. It’s more a personal growth thing. Which is all a separate topic.
Old Man Shadow
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Disagree.
Assuming historicity, Jesus was an apocalyptic rabbi (like John the Baptist and others of the time) who believed that God was coming soon to judge humanity, overthrow the oppressive systems of Rome and the kingdoms and governments that helped them, take away the ill-gotten largess of the rich and send them away poor and hungry, while lifting up the poor and oppressed, freeing the prisoners, and giving them the good things of life.
It would be a bloody, calamitous day for the Empires of the world and the only way to be “saved” from that day was to live rightly by your fellow man (giving away your extra goods to those without) and obey the Torah.
He wasn’t hippie Jesus or Republican Jesus.
Gloria DryGarden
@Suzanne: recently a friend took a class w an eastern Orthodox guy. Turns out they don’t do the “died on the cross sacrificed
for our sins trip”. There’s more about rebirth, applied personally. Doesn’t sound complete, but an improvement.
Omnes Omnibus
@OzarkHillbilly: Corn means grain in that context. Generic term. On this continent, we applied it to one thing only and it has been confusing people ever since.
Old Man Shadow
No, they identify as Christians and historically a lot of Christians have been horrible people and many more Christians have just looked on as those people did those horrible things.
We can condemn their behavior but the fact that they do it under the banner of Christianity cannot be disputed.
CaseyL
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Jesus is nothing more than a “Get Out of Jail Free” card to GOP Xtians. Nothing he said or did mattered: only that he died so they could live forever. I mean, they say this.
It’s like his ministry was just some long-haired hippy thing he did to kill time until he could go into business with his Father.
Ramona
@jonas: if I am not mistaken he was already married at least for a portion of the period when he was molesting this child.
Suzanne
@Gloria DryGarden: Orthodoxy is its own flavor of batshit.
louc
@SiubhanDuinne:
Me too! His best performance was, of course, Breaker Morant.
Omnes Omnibus
@CaseyL: Jesus, the OG trustifarian.
Harrison Wesley
@louc: Damn! I had forgotten that. Yes, he was excellent.
Gloria DryGarden
So, after a multi day news break and a few days of cooler weather, tolerable for gardening in, I popped back in, and the first 2 things I landed on were an article in AP/ on my Google news feed,
1. Putin making an alliance w n Korea.
Jesus, fuck.
2. And then something about Bannon, not getting the cushy prison he hired a consultant to help him get. And maybe getting locked up just in time (fingers crossed) to shut him the fuck up during the 4 months leading up to election.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/06/17/politics/steve-bannon-danbury-prison-contempt-of-congress
And, on the topic of trumpet not being as vile as the rapist pastor BCS he doesn’t rape 12 year olds, except maybe he does according to someone else’s article that he was alleged to do it w Jeffrey evil Epstein, but the victim retracted it due to death threats:
Deep breath. Why aren’t there death threats against these fuckers? And oh yeah, like it’s ok, the one young lady was 17, so it’s not so bad, like women don’t mind being raped once we’re almost grown up. (Insert recording of a growling wolf pack)
In a mild corollary, rape doesn’t just affect the 25-50+% of women who get raped, (and the unknown numbers of boys and men), it affects their presence in the world, the sense of safety to develop one’s gifts, it undermines feeling safe, and trusting people, it can interfere not just in personal relationships and Intimate sex lives, but also how one weaves through and together w community, and at work, and in how much, how many are in hiding, depressed, suppressed, miserable in big and small ways. It’s not just a problem for each individual person who is victimized, but it affects several circles out through the degrees of separation and how we are able, or not able, to connect and be there for each other.
I’m sure I could go on, and on, and so could a lot of us, where this kind of thing has affected us, where it’s people we know.
Devastating enough to watch it play out in big news stories. It’s personal. I think I’ll sharpen my machete and hack some weeds down. Or something..
JaySinWA
Not wrong, except he was and is married to the same woman at the beginning.
eversor
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
I’ve always found it funny that when someone like Dreher or Douthat get’s cornered they will resort to “Christianity is really good because of all the sex stuff. I stopped taking male and boy lovers like the Greeks and Romans did and also liberated women from men taking advantage of them and using them just for sex.” Which, um, no it did not do any of that.
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: I touched on Buddhism, not as a religious advertisement, but more as a description of the attitude you seemed to be describing.What is this thing that I’d like? Well, as you mentioned, it’s like the notion of “agape” (at least, in CS Lewis’ philosophy), or “metta” in Buddhism.
If you wanted to find that sort of thing, in a participatory sort of fashion, you might find it among the Unitarian Universalists. *Could* you find that sort of thing elsewhere? Well, in later seasons of Orange is the New Black, they had Norma as the epi-center of a spiritual movement, of sorts. Now, me, I see that happening because it’s a prison; I don’t think people would have started hanging out with her, and finding that she provided them with comfort and acceptance, in a less crowded, less stressed situation. And, of course, there are many pagan groups who have very similar feelings, but even there, one could say it was religious.
Heh. To break it off from *religion*, I remember there have been “love one another” gurus from time to time. I remember Leo Buscaglia from when I was in college (so order of 40 years ago), and it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of his fan clubs had a warm, kindly, aesthetic. And hell, there was a time I believed in loving others with reckless abandon, but even I learned not to be such a fucking moron.
Gloria DryGarden
@Suzanne: i believe you.
matt
I guess if she’s old enough to drive, she’s too old for this pastor to drive.
Omnes Omnibus
Because the victims and those who support them aren’t monsters.
RaflW
@mrmoshpotato: After the settlement check clears.
Gloria DryGarden
@CaseyL: we used to talk about Sunday Catholics, going into get absolved at confession, clearing out their guilt, and on Monday going right back into repeating all the same behaviors.
I’m not against grace, or forgiveness, but it sure doesn’t need to be a get out of jail card. Or a permit to do whatever you want to whomever..
SomeRandomGuy
@japa21: You want communion? Do you have a group of friends who could happily, warmly, hold a group hug?
That’s communion. Right there, that’s you all coming together, as one, communing. It doesn’t have to have any supernatural aspect of it, but, if you don’t imbue it with a bit of ritual, it might become meaningless.
Imagine if you opened a meeting of a group of friends, with a group hug, and you all agreed that you must be willing to set aside all differences, just for the hug. Well, now, you have a full blown ritual, as strong or as weak as you’ll let it be. If you’re angry, and you hug people anyway, it becomes weak. If you are angry, for a petty reason, it becomes still weaker.
On the other hand, if you realize you’re being petty, and set it aside forever, that’s strong. And even if you can’t set it aside (sometimes you can’t, and sometimes, you shouldn’t), but remember it’s just a hug, and you can be not-angry that long, that’s strong too – you are acknowledging that anger is not the way things should remain, and that there’s an “outside the circle” for your anger.
There’s both less, and more, to religion than a lot of people realize. Intentionality is a large part of religion.
Gloria DryGarden
@Chris: name of show, please? And, does it end w taking down this pedophile?
Interesting that you think it’s not
about drawing the line ‘somewhere’. What do you suppose made them willing to draw the line in that story?
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Old Man Shadow:
I GuEsS I NeEd a sArCaMsM FoNt. /s
In all seriousness, from a historicity standpoint, what you said is what I remember from “History of Christianity to the Reformation” from a looooong time ago.
One of my favorite summaries is about 11 years old in an exchange between me and an old friend of who’s the equivalent of an Assoc Prof at Univ of Helsinki (her specialty is late Bronze Age religions/cultures in the Levant):
Blog comment I passed along: “This Bronze Age tribal, goatherd, apocalyptic death cult cannot wither away fast enough for me.”
Her: “Technically, Christianity is an Iron Age apocalyptic death cult that grew out of an older Bronze Age goatherd tradition.
Accuracy in offhand slurs is important.
But strictly speaking Christianity is a Roman era apocalyptic death cult that grew out of Persian era apocalyptic death cults which grew out of Iron Age goatherd traditions that may contain some echoes of older Bronze Age tribal religions.”
lowtechcyclist
@Sister Golden Bear:
The cruelty continues to be the point, dammitall.
Gloria DryGarden
@SomeRandomGuy: cool point.
Gloria DryGarden
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Relishing your friend’s summation of that religion history.
Gloria DryGarden
@lowtechcyclist: is cruelty the point of religion for some people? I know, it seems twisted. But, where do these people get off?
We’re they born without a moral compass? Surely they aren’t all children of drug addicts, who DO
get born w the moral part of the brain damaged.
Gloria DryGarden
@Omnes Omnibus: true.
It doesn’t stop the imagination, though.
eversor
@Old Man Shadow:
Yeah he didn’t wave away all the Old Testament stuff.
He’s close to your modern day radically socially conservative Imam out of Saudi Arabia. Telling everyone to take all those social dictates really seriously, give your own stuff away, and also god is going to come and smite the evil American empire good and proper and take out all those rich princess while he’s at it.
Nobody want’s actual Jesus Christianity. It only got where it is by raping, pillaging, and genociding it’s way across the globe and then being tweaked just enough to make it not worth resisting whatever unlucky fucks were in it’s away. It’s not the only religion that’s done this. But it does hold the gold medal in raw human attrocities.
Ironcity
@Suzanne: UUs are really nice but if you get them too, too mad they will burn a question mark on your lawn.
eversor
@Gloria DryGarden:
A large percent of humans are authoritarians and control freaks who get frightened and angry by things outside of their comfort zone.
Religion, especially the Abrahamic ones, not only explicitly endorse and demand all these horrible things they provide a divine mandate for them. It’s a weapon of social, cultural, sexual, and societal control.
So you either take the weapon away or just accept it’s eventually going to take out you and everything you care about.
Being a good Christian and talking about the fake hippy Jesus is about as much worth as writing in Ronald Reagan as a way out of voting for Trump. There’s no true conservative/hippy Jesus hidden in those groups. It’s shit and it’s always been shit and refusing to call it out as shit and fight it is enabling it at best… and even that’s being far too kind.
Gloria DryGarden
@Citizen Alan: this equalizer story sounds great in all its iterations. anyone might be a secret hero…
I like queen latifa, and Denzel, and indeed to see this Edward Woodward, who I don’t know. Incidentally, I read that Denzel is anti-woke. I wonder if means he’s maga, or pro project 2025.. how far to the right is he? And if so, does how much one’s movies are viewed affect royalties and bonus pay for actors? I’ll boycott if I have to.
I guess this is one I’m not going to research.
Ladyraxterinok
@RaflW:
Dee Parsons at the blog Wartburg Watch
was one f the first to break this story on Friday with a statement from the victim
Morris was with his family touring Greece as the story broke.
Gloria DryGarden
@OzarkHillbilly: spose so.
And autocorrect is trying to give me the word spi
der, which was your problem recently. Hope she’s healing up..
Ladyraxterinok
@RaflW:
It’s been reported that the four and a half years of abuse occurred in Oklahoma and that the victom’s lawyer is the AG of Oklahoma.
Gloria DryGarden
@TeezySkeezy: explains a lot.
How can we counter this? I really need a plan to align with..
Swear words 25-401!
Ladyraxterinok
@jonas:
A t the time of the abuse Morris was married with a young son
His wife contacted the victim and told her that she (Morris’s wife) forgave the victim!! Apparently for tempting enticincing, seducing Morris
Gloria DryGarden
@eversor: agree w your strongly worded comment, like it a lot, want to help you take those people down. I don’t have a plan. You make a really good point:
My only plan is to keep making my light stronger, which is personal code for a lot of details and innerwork.
And I don’t mind the teachings of Jesus the way rev Rick speaks of them, and my Aramaic Translations basis for teachings of Jesus guy. And spirituality and groups coming from human care, interest me greatly. Although, group politics can happen anywhere, and a friend of mine was a bit mistreated at his long term UU Church. I want to connect there, and yet I’m aware of the danger, even there.
This was a pov I’d not put in place, and it makes sense:
(Which might apply to my friend’s situation at UU.)
SomeRandomGuy
@Gloria DryGarden: There *is* some cruelty in the US-Christianity that’s out there, and it’s baked in really deeply.
Generally, all Christians believe that Jesus allowed us to go to heaven when we die, but varying sects have varying teachings. The simplest is, “the good go to heaven, the wicked go to hell.”
Now, it’s also true that Christians have a doctrine that, if you convert on your deathbed, you could still go to heaven, even though you might have been wicked most of your life. And that’s because *no one* is good enough to be saved through works, nor is anyone so wicked they are beyond redemption.
If you speak to a casual Christian, you’ll probably find that they tend to believe, if a person is a good *person*, they’ll get to heaven. Yeah, there are teachings that say otherwise, but, seriously: when you calculate pizza value, do *you* do it by the area of the pie, which is proportionate to the square of the radius? You don’t? Well… lots of people ignore things that they were taught – even *profitable* things!
So don’t tell me that every member of a sect believes the sect’s teachings on hell, because you probably learned plenty of stuff you don’t apply to your own life.
And, again, if you speak to a casual Christian, you’ll also get the answer that a truly wicked person, even one who goes to church all the time, will go to hell. If they’re wise, they won’t name a name for a wicked person, except, maybe, Hitler, etc.. They’ll just say “oh, a truly wicked person would surely go to hell,” because they know God won’t ignore the wickedness.
And *that* level of cruelty is sometimes the point of a religion. It’s an impure cruelty, but saying “that wickedness will send a person to hell!” leads many a person to thinking the same wickedness is a reason to slash tires, break windows, or maybe even “kick his ass, just a little, not like a beatdown.”
Now, *people* can be cruel, and can even make cruelty the point of the religion-in-view. I know many cruel evangelicals, and they would insist they are not cruel, just, following the Bible, which, well, QED.
(If you don’t dig the Latin, QED transliterates as “which was what was to be demonstrated.” In my former-catholic gang, using QED is also the equivalent of a sick burn, because “I’m not cruel, I’m biblical!” proves cruelty was, in fact, desiderata by(of?) the speaker.)
Eyeroller
@Omnes Omnibus: In older English, “corn” is just a generic term for a grain. It is related to “kernel.” In England it refers to wheat; in Scotland it’s apparently mostly applied to oats. When English settlers arrived in North American they found a new grain that they called “Indian corn.” The “Indian” has been dropped.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eyeroller: Yes.
Another Scott
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Obligatory …
Amazing!
Cheers,
Scott.
Ramona
Twenty or so years ago, I attended a support group for folks with mood disorders. It was a very popular group as evidenced by its rapidly growing size. Among the longstanding initial attendees was a woman who was a decidedly odder duck among the rest of us decidedly odd ducks. One evening towards the end of our session as we were beginning the friendly desultory chat just preceding our goodbyes, she confidently came out with that idiotic saw about how there was only one perfect human being who’d ever lived and struck by a momentary bolt of genius, I asked, “Who was that?” She looked at me all irritated and said, “Jesus, of course!” And I said, “Whooo? Cheeses?” My act of complete ignorant innocence was perfect and because it’s obvious I hail from the Indian subcontinent and she could not have known that I’d been raised Catholic, I was still puzzled that she just kept repeating “Jesus Christ” in reply to my persistent “Who? What does CHEESE have to do with human perfection?” She only knew the cliches and had not the wherewithal to actually follow her Lord’s dictum and preach the good news. Or I was shit at feigning innocent ignorance and she knew darn well that I was winding her up and deliciously albeit inadvertently indulged me. The group leader was a smart cookie and she stopped our inane and repetitive exchange. I still feel pleasure in communicating the message that contrary to their smug certainty, all do not share their superficial piety.
Gloria DryGarden
So, looks like everyone is gone on to the next thread. But I just want to add, (and I think I can say such a thing here,where we discuss a lot of the terrible things)
Daughter fuckers
As a more accurate super bad epithet, actually too horrifying to pronounce out loud. Because the girls are someone’s daughter, even when not the actual daughter of the rapist/ pedophile. (Although sometimes precisely that.)
Because “mother fucker”, as satisfying as it is to say when cussing out loud, is sort of funny. Even though it rolls sweetly off the tongue… How did she become a mother? usually by, um you know, fucking, or, hopefully in a good life, love making. So “mother fucker” is like saying something obvious. And pretty common. And one wishes lots of great fucking, for women who are moms, and who like sex.
But now,
Daughter fucker
That’s a pretty gnarly meaningful bad thing.
When observing men in positions of authority, sometimes the thought comes up, “is this guy treating someone horribly in private?” Thankfully, I don’t think it often; it’s an unpleasant worry. But in this thread today, it sure applies.
OzarkHillbilly
@Omnes Omnibus: I know, I know. It was obvious that was what they meant. But it kinda puts the lie to the whole “the bible is the inerrant word of god” thing.
Don’t you agree?
Ramona
Daughterfucker gets a thumbs up from me!
Also child-diddler – to emphasize the pedophilia.
Gloria DryGarden
@Ramona: delicious story. I’ve long needed a way to stop people in their tracks when they get involved trying to sell their version of religion to me. Really never knew how to shut them down. I’ve left in tears, I’ve been terrified, and I’ve been accosted with that shit within minutes of learning a best friend had unexpectedly died just that morning, while still sobbing, my face wet w tears, my breath trying to gather itself.
Cheeses!
Omnes Omnibus
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m probably the wrong person to ask. It’s the result of hundreds of translations of copies of legends and folktales with small amounts of actual history tossed in for protein. Those who want to argue a divine origin will doubtless find a way to explain all of that.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: IIRC, that’s what the Count (our lawyer friend from Louisville) likes about the Eastern Orthodox church.
Cheers,
Scott.
Gloria DryGarden
Gloria DryGarden
@TBone: you made a difference to those two kids.
You stopped it. They knew you were a witness, and believed them. When they go into the darkness, your timely intervention is a light, a flicker of hope, a flotation device to cling to to prevent drowning. These things that happen, they’re never over, for the victims.
Maybe not never. But it can come up on replay, from the unconscious in unexpected moments and tiny triggers.
Bless you. Glad he got caught. The two years in-between, yup…
OzarkHillbilly
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in god. I have no problem with those who do. Life is hard, right? If believing in God makes it a little bit easier to get thru this vale of tears, who am I to find fault with those who do?
Whatever it takes. BUT…..
Anytime, anywhere, in anyway, somebody claims to know the inerrant word of GOD, I have to ask, How is it you, a mere puny human, are capable of knowing the infinite mind of God?
They can’t. Nobody can. I don’t give a rat’s ass if it was transcribed into a book by somebody who was told something by somebody. However, if somebody approaches the idea from a position of humility, I can accept the sincerity of their beliefs.
In so many Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc etc, I detect very little humility. Most seem to think GOD is speaking directly to them.
I, object.
OzarkHillbilly
@Gloria DryGarden: She is progressing. Thanx for the thought.
JaySinWA
@Gloria DryGarden:
What a friend we have in cheeses,
Havarti, Brie, and Camembert …
SomeRandomGuy
@Gloria DryGarden: Similarly, I always found “MILF” to be puzzling. (I couldn’t touch on the main part of your post – I agree, DF is a good term, and if I have to foster teen boys, I think I might throw that term in.)
(I also see I might have assumed you knew only as much as “the average American” about Buddhism, and I might have been wrong about that. I do hope it came across as an interested observer’s thoughts.)
smith
@OzarkHillbilly: In my opinion, most seem to think GOD is speaking directly through them, and amazingly enough, always wants exactly what they want.
Miss Bianca
@OzarkHillbilly: Damn,, girl.
Gloria DryGarden
@eversor: there is astonishing pressure to remain silent, gaslighting , crazy-making pressures, to disempower the victims and the ones speaking out.
Not just in churches. In families. In organizations.
and so much is done to separate the truth tellers from the herd, and outcast you shun you. It doesn’t go away, but there’s the expectation to pretend it’s all fine now. “Aren’t you over that?”
Some people get help to heal, over come rebuild, grow beyond it. But a lot of damage has been done.
Gwangung
@Citizen Alan: oh, fat from inexplicable. Every era needs its revenge fantasy, its justice fantasy, its Superman fantasy. And the Equalizer is all three rolled into one. Potent stuff.
JaySinWA
@SomeRandomGuy: I’m not sure how cutting that is. Just like everyone has or had a mother, every girl or woman is or was a daughter.
It does bring up the issue of parental disapproval and threats of reprisal or discipline, as in “Wake up little Susie”, so it might be a deterrent.
Ramona
@Gloria DryGarden: I’m so sorry you lost your dear friend. That can be devastating.
Eyeroller
@OzarkHillbilly: The King James version is full of archaic language, usages that are extant in England but not in the US, and mistranslations. But according to some sects it is the only acceptable version, as though God and Jesus speak 17th-century British English so <shrug>? There are many translations now that are much better, though the KJV is still among the most poetic.
Ramona
@JaySinWA: havarti, brie and camembert goes perfectly with that song!
Gloria DryGarden
@Omnes Omnibus: agree. translation, and copies. And sometimes political expediency.
Written by humans. Gleaned, and compiled by variations from previous religious teachings and stories/ myths. One world view stacked neatly stop another, and the history, the world views, seep into the next layer, mingling w new flavors.
But not always tasty,.unlike my accidental cake metaphor
Really get mad when folks say it’s the word of God. Sure there’s some terrific and interesting moral teaching, and wisdom teaching, and some models for spiritual teachings. An interesting historical book. Really need the concordances, and commentaries and translators notes, to look into it further.
Instead, I’ll read about how to improve my soil for a plant I’m growing. Or I’ll call up God direct, thru my case managers, and see if I get a message back in a few days. Direct. Sometimes She answers, or They do. But that biblio book. No. Interesting but also, has been used as an excuse to bludgeon people. The book gets attention way more than the shit done in its name.
My dad had all that concordance stuff, although I always thought he was an atheist, I mean he never discussed it except on scholarly terms, and only if asked, if then. Maybe he was agnostic. It’s too late to ask him.
Gloria DryGarden
@Eyeroller: poetic is nice. Want to know more about all the mistranslations.
And now Starz is showing “Mary and George”, a miniseries, rated R, about King James who mostly got that translation done to please the church and distract them from his very busy very gay life. He was tough on gays in society, passed some very Anti- gay laws, but as king, he sure has a lot of liberties. George, both in history and in the show becomes his main lover. King “I can be gay w my courtiers but don’t let the common man do this”. That’s who got KJV done.
The KJV version of the Lord’s prayer is more poetic than a lot of translations.
OT, I really like prayers of the cosmos” which takes a page for each line in the Lord’s prayer, because Aramaic is that rich, complicated and layered. It really covers a lot of spiritual imagery and options for how to perceive our interface with something bigger.
Real far OT, the actor in Mary and George is a super hot young man, very talented, quite a range, in his different movies.
Geminid
@Gloria DryGarden: Your father might have been a Deist. That belief system had its hey-day in the latter half of the 18th century, but it’s still widespread I think.
Gloria DryGarden
@Geminid: um, what is a deist? He was always busy at his church, supported my mom who was a born again Episcopalian, who even knew? She talked about God. He supported others, too, at his church. I asked Mom for prayers. It would never have occurred to me to ask him for anything like that. I don’t think he had a phone number to call god and talk direct. but mom sure did.
At our house we mostly always believed there were many paths up the mountain.
Once Mom got born again she got a bit more insistent about what’s the “right way”, but not intrusively so.
Hm, a deist…
JaySinWA
@Ramona: “asiago gruyere” might scan better, but “havarti, brie and camembert” was gouda-nuff for a first pass
ETA I don’t think I have it in me to do the rest of the verses.
Gloria DryGarden
@OzarkHillbilly:
Thank you! EXACTLY!
Gloria DryGarden
@JaySinWA: it was gouda-nuf….
Gloria DryGarden
@Ramona: thank you. I miss him still.it was horrible to have a pleasant coworker start asking me if I knew Jesus and try telling me there’s a right way and a wrong way to believe.
Cheeses, fuck. I should have gone off on her in Spanish, or borrowed every potential cuss word I know in every language. My Tamil-speaking friend taught me katrikiya, which sounds sharp and harsh, even though it only means eggplant.
I needed to cry, and she was trying to make me wrong or convert me, and I get terrified at that and just start trying to dodge. They used to kill us, in Europe, if we didn’t believe the right way. I think I somehow half remember it, or it’s in my DNA. I sure bet I was a healer herbalist, burned as a witch, cuz that’s what they did to us, when the new men-oriented medicine was trying to put the folkways and woman healers out of business, using religion as their basis.
Ramona
@JaySinWA: I love puns! Especially twists on song lyrics! You seem to know your cheeses (praise be to him)… I love, love cheese but am unfortunately highly allergic to milk protein. Sigh…
Gloria DryGarden
@SomeRandomGuy: I can’t find the comment about Buddhism, in the click back links, I know something was said. I know a little more than average about Buddhism. Took a class, knew a few people in practice, study sometimes with a master healer who includes Buddhist approaches directly and indirectly, in some of his approach to life, character, healing.
So um did I miss something, did you poke at me for some pro or anti Buddhist thing I said? What comment #s?
Oh, it’s all so interesting!
Btw, not remembering who said it, but there ARE more sects of Buddhism than of protestant “Christianity”, and so
me of them Do in fact worship Buddha. They said in my eastern religions class.
It’s weird, huh? Who’d-a-thunk it?
Gloria DryGarden
@Ramona:
I can’t have dairy either. But the stream of word play is a delight. Even without remembering all the words to the song.
Ramona
@Gloria DryGarden: They are fucking assholes utterly devoid of simple human empathy. IIRC Cheeses himself talked of giving comfort to the grieving and I’m sure the way this person treated you was not the intended lesson. It’s awful that you had to undergo that in addition to losing him.
Gloria DryGarden
@Sister Golden Bear: JFC!
Crushing news
SomeRandomGuy
@JaySinWA: It doesn’t have to bite. It’s just one more piece of evidence to pile on to the young male brain that women are actually, you know, *people*.
“You want to ‘hit that’? Well, here’s something to think about. There’s a momma That and a dad That. Would they approve (“maybe not *today*, but, if things go well, ‘eventually'”), because their beloved daughter-That is happy? Because that’s the first step: your goal is a happy partner.”
The trick is making sure the boys-becoming-men remember that first: the goal *is* a happy partner. All the rest is just a different way of getting the message across.
Ramona
@Gloria DryGarden: Indeed! JaySinWA is witty!
@JaySinWA:
Gloria DryGarden
@Sister Golden Bear: JFC!
Crushing news
@Suzanne:
Gloria DryGarden
@SomeRandomGuy: now you’ve lost me,
thats ok.
Thx for picking up on DF. Could also be child fucker, CF.
Sounds like you foster boys, and want them to be considerate people and good partners. That is precious.
I don’t think jay sin wa got it about DF. It’s so deeply cutting, it’s better if some people have blinders, to not see, because it’s really very disturbing. But there are plenty of disturbing things to choose from, and pay attention to. We all have to “pick our battles”
In lieu of religion, I’m sending over some very fine brie and other cheeses….
Gloria DryGarden
@Ramona:thank you. Thank you very.
she intended it
But for sure, Mr cheeses would not have chosen that way. (No irreverence intended)
Barry
@Chris: During this time, Jimmy Saville was a open secret. IMHO, MI-6, MI-5 and the police would happily cover for a pedophile.
SomeRandomGuy
@Gloria DryGarden: Don’t worry on my part. I felt we had a lovely discussion. I was mildly worried, at one point, that I might have been foolish in making an assumption, and after that, I was just hoping to add my own thoughts.
Gloria DryGarden
@smith: that child fucker is gonna get his come- to- Jesus moment, later.
Meanwhile, lawsuits, one hopes.
Gloria DryGarden
@SomeRandomGuy: cool, but give me reference comment, won’t you please?
Yes a delightful exchange all around.
Gloria DryGarden
@Gloria DryGarden: oh, df for you means like milf, it sort of doesn’t seem weird, because every mom… and every female partner is a daughter…
I meant something a little different, but that’s ok
Citizen Alan
@OzarkHillbilly: In high school, I was told by the daughter of a Presbyterian Minister that “inerrant” simply means that everything in the Bible is the way it is because God wanted it in there, but that said nothing about whether any of the stories in the Bible were literally true. I thought that was so profound (compared to the literalist SBC church I was raised in) that I approached my mother about converting to the Presbyterians. She talked me out of it with a guilt-trip which, ironically, was a factor in me abandoning Christianity completely.
Citizen Alan
@Gwangung: I know all that. I was more commenting on the oddity of inserting an African-American star known for his action movies in a series based on the implicit premise of “this man doesn’t look at all like an action movie star.”
Sort of how I thought “True Lies” would have been improved vastly if the Arnold Shwartzenegger character was instead played by someone who looked nothing like an action star. Whereas Tropic Thunder would have been improved by replacing Ben Stiller in the main role with an actual B-list action star. The Rock would have been legendary in that role.
Chris
@Gloria DryGarden:
The Sandbaggers.
The pedophile probably does get taken down, but he doesn’t even appear and isn’t that central to the episode: the whole story is about MI6 getting drawn into a tiff between CIA and MI5 where both organizations seem to be trying to play them, and they find out what it’s about towards the end.
Within the story, I suspect we are supposed to take the MI5 guy at his word, that there are indeed crimes that are so serious that even spies and high-end cops would think it’s more important to arrest the guy than to play spy games around him. I’m just saying that if anyone like that said that in real life, I wouldn’t believe them for a second, and would assume he had some other angle I just hadn’t seen. One of these ways that even the jaded and cynical seventies, I think, could still be way too “nice” in their assessment of people in power. At least those kinds of people.
@Barry:
Yep. This kind of thing is why. Rape and pedophilia just seem to run rampant among people in power, and investigations into and punishment of them are vanishingly rare, and generally only happen when public pressure becomes a factor.
Timill
@JaySinWA: Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they will be called children of Gouda…
Chris
@Citizen Alan:
Agreed. The other thing is that the original McCall not only wasn’t supposed to look like an action star, he wasn’t really supposed to be an action star. Yes, he could kill you if he really needed to, but he tended to prefer outsmarting bad people instead of outshooting or outpunching them.
Much like Mission: Impossible, the original The Equalizer was a TV show with a lot of mind games, which got dragged out of mothballs by modern filmmakers and reinvented as a series of much more conventional action movies.
(The best modernization of The Equalizer, incidentally, is Burn Notice, complete with the main character’s ambiguous relationship with the intelligence community he left behind).
Gloria DryGarden
@Timill: lol
Roflmao
Gloria DryGarden
@Chris: rape and pedophilia knows no class or ethnic group. But people in power and authority are just as likely as anyone else to be daughter fuckers And child rapers and abusers…
Grateful for anytime public pressure exposes them. I suppose people in more powerful positions hat extra ways to intimidate, frighten and silence their victims, so it’s good when someone is caught, stopped, prosecuted. It cuts through the cover up and the ongoing damage that does.
Dennis Doubleday
@Splitting Image: yeah, the statement assumes facts not in evidence. His Epstein relationship calls it into question.