Yep. He is lying. Why do white people like this guy?
3.
TeezySkeezy
@schrodingers_cat: Because a lot of people are assholes and often racist and will align with a racist asshole of their own race because that’s just who they are.
4.
Lily
It’s not a debate if one person who’s a known habitual liar is lying his flaming pants off.
5.
3Sice
Joe’s got him off his talking points.
6.
3Sice
It’s not high minded stuff but just keep calling him a loser.
7.
Mousebumples
Not watching either. I heard Joe started calling out malarkey and catching a second wind.
And called the former guy a convicted felon?
8.
zhena gogolia
@Mousebumples: Apparently he said he had the morals of an alley cat.
9.
Old Dan and Little Ann
What will you do about child care?
10.
Avalune
@Mousebumples: He’s had some good ones – called him a whiner too!
I’m not all that worried about the lies this time, because the lies are so obvious. This isn’t ‘say something that sounds reasonable but isn’t true’. Trump is going on and on about migrants, saying weird shit about absolutely clean air and water, saying events the public knows well like Charlottesville were ‘debunked’. If your lie is to say that everybody wanted Roe vs Wade to be overturned, nobody has to fact challenge you, because you sound like an idiot.
Yeah, Biden looked quite old & tired at the beginning. Now he’s kicking ass. Trump looks like a damn fool. Drive the god damn narrative. Be confident for once in a god damn while.
If all you fucking tweet about for the rest of the night is that our Decent Grandpa sounded old for a 15 minutes, that’s all that’s gonna be reported on. You know how this bullshit works. Recover yourselves. Biden is kicking ass right now.
13.
Starfish
The numbers. The numbers. The only number Trump has mentioned is 19.
14.
Starfish
@UncleEbeneezer: Democrats are allowed to live in the reality-based community.
@schrodingers_cat: Yep. He is lying. Why do white people like this guy?
This white woman can’t say. He repulses me. However, maybe the convicted felon says what his mostly-white fans want to hear.
17.
Suzanne
I’m sorry. I’m sick of hearing about the shitty moderation and lying. We all know he lies and there’s no way to rebut it in a debate format. Joe shouldn’t have agreed to this. This is a major strategic error.
18.
mrmoshpotato
How will Jon Stewart “BOTH SIDES!” this orange shitstain’s crap tonight?
To the extent that this matters at all, I suspect it will be biden’s enormous advertising budget taking choice clips of trump sounding insane and putting them on every swing state TV for the next five months
Right, exactly. I wish Biden were doing better (he’s doing better as he goes on), but they’re gonna get outlandish claims from Trump on commercials for the next four months.
The lie about of Roe v Wade, that “everyone wanted it overturned” should absolutely sink him. I wonder if he said that because he’s just that addled or because his team geniunely thinks that’s a winning position
21.
different-church-lady
@Starfish: The reality is: Democrats don’t know how to drive a narrative.
@Frankensteinbeck: I’m not all that worried about the lies this time, because the lies are so obvious. This isn’t ‘say something that sounds reasonable but isn’t true’. Trump is going on and on about migrants, saying weird shit about absolutely clean air and water, saying events the public knows well like Charlottesville were ‘debunked’. If your lie is to say that everybody wanted Roe vs Wade to be overturned, nobody has to fact challenge you, because you sound like an idiot.
I want that clip of the lying felon broadcasted far and wide.
25.
Avalune
@schrodingers_cat: besides the obvious racist and bully overtones that draw out the racists and bullies… I also think sometimes it’s like when someone pretends they understand a joke when it makes no fucking sense but they are afraid to look stupid.
@Suzanne: At the time I did think, “Why trust CNN?”
28.
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: Yes, that reply by Starfish is a beautiful demonstration of the truth of the adage.
29.
Leto
@Mousebumples: I’ve seen some of those abortion commercials; they’re fucking brutal. Good, every single person needs to be hit with this every damned day. Good.
30.
opiejeanne
@mrmoshpotato: don’t know, don’t care. I stopped respecting Stewart a long time ago, which is a shame because he used to be so good.
There is if the moderators are willing to enforce the debate rules
34.
Mousebumples
@Leto: Sen. Baldwin has a similar one against Hovde on the streaming channels right now. Hovde also ran (unsuccessfully) for Senate like 12 years ago, and he talked about wanting to outlaw abortion then.
The Gish Gallop is definitely something that Biden should have been prepared for. After all, TFG set a land speed record for lies in his first term, and he has only gotten worse. I suspect Joe would be ready for it if there is a round II, but I also suspect that Trump’s handlers will argue against a round II.
Of course, TFG will want to do this again, since his fans will tell him he won bigly. It will be an interesting exercise to keep him from following his reptilian instincts…
37.
dmsilev
“Take a look at what he said he is and take a look at what he is” Heh.
38.
zhena gogolia
On the other thread, debit just said BURN!!! What did that refer to?
39.
Avalune
Oh damn! Hahaha Biden said he’d be happy to play golf against Trump if Trump carries his own clubs.
Can you do that?
Hahahaha I mean this is childish but funny.
40.
dmsilev
Trump can’t bring himself to say that yes, he’d accept the results.
41.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: Biden challenged Trumpov to a golf round if Trumpov carried his own clubs; lol
42.
JWR
I just [tuned in] for this last half hour, and my God, WTH is wrong with Biden’s voice? (Must be those hyper drugs for Dementia.) But yeah, Trump just lies and lies about everything. And Joe, do not get into a debate about your damn handicap. Not here.
@different-church-lady: It’s very hard to drive a narrative when someone else has control of the car; we are at a fundamental disadvantage because we don’t control any of the media channels.
Tangental, but related to carrying golf clubs: does tRump have a driver’s license? Anyone ever seen a photo of him behind the wheel? Limos since he was a kid???
The only thing moderators are gonna do is make sure tehy don’t go over the time limit. The debate is between Joe and Trump, I don’t think it’s their job to jump in and fact check.
The thing is, nobody is going to keep up with Trump’s lies. I’m hoping that he’s told a lie that everyone even his supporters know it’s not true and hopefully that might make think.
All Biden needs to do is look presidential – and calm and speak slowly. In fact, the right way to do this is to make sure that he fades into the background and keep giving Trump more ammo and use quips like:
“oh that’s good one! I’m definitely going to use that on my attack ads”
He does _not_need to debate. Hell, he doesn’t even need to answer the questions proposed to him. IT’s not that kind of event.
54.
3Sice
Trump is fucking this away.
55.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: He did that too; Biden reminded everyone that old Ronnie Jackson said he was 6’ 4” and 235; Trumpov- “I never said that, I never said that”. Multiple burns in a row there.
56.
Omnes Omnibus
“You’re a whiner.”
57.
Tazj
@JWR: The White House has now stated(after the debate started) that he has had a cold for the last few days.
58.
UncleEbeneezer
@different-church-lady: The reality is that in a social media world, we literally create the narratives with what we post and say. Putting our collective or underpants-wetting on public display only hurts us. One thing Republicans do better than our side is Message Discipline. We all can (and should) easily spin this is a win for Biden. Hammer Trump’s lies and Biden’s truths. Highlight the great sections and don’t even acknowledge the others.
FFS this isn’t complicated: Sell the story we want to sell and stop obsessing over the mistakes.
59.
3Sice
Joe is clocking him and Trump can’t deal with it.
60.
Leto
“He’s a whiner” LOOOOOL, that got to the shit stain; his face visibly scrunched up. Had to get himself under control there. Good barb, keep doing it.
61.
cain
@Albatrossity: The Gish Gallop is definitely something that Biden should have been prepared for.
That is his people’s fault. They prepared him for talking to the American people. Any fool can look at all the footages of Trump’s previous debates – he’s following the exact same thing. He’s doing nothing different. This is his people’s fault for not prepping him properly.
62.
Suzanne
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): A live debate cannot stand up to a Gish gallop. It makes terrible TV. It’s not interesting or memorable. Fact-checking is slow, methodical, requires parsing, requires good faith. None of that works in this format.
Funnily enough, the “readers added context” things on Xhitter are often really great and funny.
Biden should never have agreed to an in-person debate with this guy. Wrestling with a pig.
63.
Leto
@Omnes Omnibus: that’s one of those old school insults, and I appreciate it.
The thing is, nobody is going to keep up with Trump’s lies. I’m hoping that he’s told a lie that everyone even his supporters know it’s not true and hopefully that might make think.
I’d say, “everyone wanted Roe v Wade overturned” could qualify as that. Being hardline anti-abortion is generally not a popular position, even among some Republicans, as we’ve seen over the past two years
Yes, but this is where joe needs to pounce and keep hitting him with jan 6 over and over and over again. Then go back to him being a felon – I mean, come on, yo. He’s a fucking criminal – treat him like one.
67.
Old Dan and Little Ann
This has been quite the rollercoaster. Hang in there, Joe. He alway looks happier when he winds up the orange menace.
Breaking: Kamala Harris Warming Up In Debate Bullpen
69.
Eolirin
Biden will do best if he successfully manages to land insults on Trump and that’s what people focus on.
All anyone really remembers from the 2020 debates is Malarkey!, C’mon Man, and Would You Shut Up?
The rest is just fodder for attack ads.
If we’re lucky there’ll be more focus on Trump never answering the questions than on Biden taking a little while to hit his stride or his voice being hoarse. And it’ll have to be luck. The journalists and social media reposts won’t be focused on substance.
70.
Soprano2
TCFG is babbling some stuff that will have people going “Huh? What the hell is he talking about?”
71.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Of course Tapper & Bash weren’t gonna do anything. They are who they are.
I’m sure Joe’s team knew that going into this. If they didn’t account for that, well, they fucked up. Basically what cain said in #61. Shit happens in campaigning, it’s not the end of the world. Obama showed that in 2012 after his first debate with Rmoney.
Sucks, sure because, well, Failed Corporate Media. But also entirely predictable.
Nice to hear Biden recovered somewhat as things went along.
Per UncleEbeneezer: FFS this isn’t complicated: Sell the story we want to sell and stop obsessing over the mistakes.
72.
3Sice
After Joe’s off note open all the felon had to do was take the high line. He can’t not jump into the pig shit.
73.
Leto
@UncleEbeneezer: the #whiner tag needs to be trending now with his face on it.
@cain: we’re wrapping it up here, but incorporate that it for the next debate. If there is one.
74.
Lyrebird
@UncleEbeneezer: I don’t always agree when people talk about narratives, but I am so glad you posted!
The convicted felon guy has his crew ready to call it his victory all over the airwaves… Even though the disadvantage @Eolirin: pointed out is real and a real problem, at least we can stand up for POTUS and Madame VP not cut them down!
Maybe the WH staff should’ve mentioned that POTUS has a cold before, maybe that would’ve been seen as trying to change expectations. POTUS has to swim upstream through all this MAGA crap…
75.
mrmoshpotato
@p.a.: Dump screaming in that truck like a stupid child.
joe needs to pounce and keep hitting him with jan 6 over and over and over
Trump is punching himself in the face just fine there, repeatedly trying to claim it was no big deal and his supporters were peaceful and allowed in and that it’s all Nancy Pelosi’s fault. Joe has thrown some punches, but if someone has a takeaway at all about Jan 6th, it’s going to be that Trump is pretending it didn’t happen.
77.
3Sice
I’m not living in hell.
I live in the greatest country – the United States of America.
78.
zhena gogolia
@3Sice: Is that a quote or you’re saying that yourself?
79.
Quadrillipede
Oh, are we no longer dooooomed?
80.
Leto
@Mousebumples: Kamala would verbally eviscerate that fool, while looking absolutely fabulous doing it.
81.
Mike E
Over at kos, Mark has long since thrown in the towel:
UPDATE: Thursday, Jun 27, 2024 · 10:32:50 PM EDT · Mark Sumner
Every single round of this might as well be “Mr. Trump, will you now lie to us for two minutes?”
Thank of all the time CNN could have saved pretending to make up questions.
@Frankensteinbeck: Trumpov is pretending so much shit didn’t happen, or did happen like VA funding, HBCU funding, or insulin price decrease. Always trying to take credit for shit he didn’t do.
84.
Eolirin
@UncleEbeneezer: So much easier to do that when you’ve got bot armies simultaneously pushing the pro narrative you want for your side and also fomenting conflict in the discourse for the other side.
We have huge operational disadvantages because there’s no centralized propaganda machine working for us.
85.
Leto
Maddow pointing that Biden got stronger, in both voice/answers, as the night went on; Trumpov was the inverse. Became more flustered as the night went on.
86.
Splitting Image
I haven’t been watching the debate, but from following people’s reactions, I think the biggest loser here might be CNN.
It doesn’t sound like Trump has been doing himself any favours either.
87.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Summer at Teh Orange summarizes it best:
Trump’s tactic is simply to never bother answer the question he was asked,
This whole format is a joke. CNN is not only not correcting Trump when he absolutely lies, they’re doing nothing to get him to answer the questions. They might as well not have questions.
They could just give Trump a rally and it would be the same thing, because he’s not bothering to answer a thing. Trump is just going to talk.
F**k, CNN. This isn’t a debate. It’s just blocking off minutes for Trump to lie.
Tonight might be a mess but the Biden campaign has shown how adroit it can be using episodes like this.
Splitting Image: I haven’t been watching the debate, but from following people’s reactions, I think the biggest loser here might be CNN.
That needs to get hammered repeatedly going forward.
88.
hrprogressive
Biden got exponentially better after the first 25 mins, and Trump got exponentially worse after that time too.
Biden sounded better, and sharper, even though his reported cold was a hamper.
Trump started word-salading pretty quickly, and he keeps going back to a bunch of buzzwords to excite his Fascist Cult…and not much else.
Does it make me concerned? Sure, but I’m concerned that Biden isn’t crushing Convicted Felon Donald Trump by 15 points because…come the fuck on, people.
Anyone who was taking their cyanide pulls before 945pm EST did so prematurely.
Anyone who thinks this was the best Biden performance ever needs to pull off their rose colored glasses.
Maddow basically just said what I was thinking too. They traded places of strength after the first 25-35 mins.
Of course now the talking heads are going to say things about whether he should even be in the race so.
89.
Another Scott
I’ll be sending ddale8 my condolences.
Joe did well. Yeah, he stumbled a few times. Biden does that.
He made a strong case that TCFFG was lying about everything. He made a strong case for his policies, and the dangers of TCFFG’s policies.
“You’re a whiner.”
That should be a tagline that TCFFG is unable to escape.
Cheers,
Scott.
90.
Soprano2
Just as I thought, CNN’s analysis is all about the optics, and not much about TCFG’s lies.
91.
TBone
There’s only one thing to do. When you’re walking through hell, KEEP GOING. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get ready for the Supremacists Court tomorrow. I’m thankful for the speedy news cycle for the first time, I think. This’ll blow over.
Okay, my final takeaway is that the debate itself is going to have no effect except to make a lot of liberals have heart attacks because we were already pessimists and the 2016 election gave us PTSD from Hell. Instead, the effect of this debate will be an endless stream of political ads of Trump saying telling dumbass obvious lies. Hell, they’ll probably just grab him saying that everyone wanted Roe vs Wade overturned and hit that a million times. Who needs anything else?
93.
Mike E
@Splitting Image: Honestly, I think the biggest loser here might be anyone who watches CNN. That jawn suuucks.
94.
The Thin Black Duke
Mike Nelson, Tom Servo and Crow woulda been better moderators.
This has not been a good debate for Biden. The questions have generally not been favorable to him, the moderators cut him off and his voice sounds awful. By contrast, let Trump ramble on and lie and stray off topic. I don’t think anybody gained voters here.
the first segment of this debate was really pretty bad but as a whole I think it’s fine
I don’t feel like it was a Biden W and I wanted a Biden W but I think there’s a lot of material here to beat on Trump with and hopefully the PACs will be able to get it done.
96.
Soprano2
Shit, this is going to start up the “Joe should step aside” crap again. On CNN they think all the Democrats are panicking.
I am experiencing this mostly via here (and a little through Bluesky), but it sounds like Biden might benefit from a new comms and prep team who will coach him to
a) respond to TCFG’s Gish gallops with something like “Do you believe this/these [malarkey/bull/lies]? That’s all he does [perhaps occasionally adding, “what a con man!”]. Our campaign website will have a thorough fact check up tomorrow, but here’s the truth [leisurely and succinct answer to question or whatever he wants to say to the issue at hand]”,
b) keep needling TCFG about his convictions, his company’s convictions on “charges of massive business fraud” (let TCFG try to spin it away), his business and Presidential failures, his two impeachments (“only saved by your lapdogs in the Senate”), Jan 6, anything that TCFG might be sensitive about, even things like if TCFG crows about his business prowess, Biden responds with, say, “you bankrupted 3 casinos and an entire football league!”,
and c) related to this, Biden salts his speaking with well-timed and relentless variations on “convicted felon” like “the 34-time convicted felon and fraudster” and “that convicted felon over there.”
101.
BeautifulPlumage
I wish Biden would have called out the questions themselves. “Well Dana, I don’t agree with the premise of that question and here’s why…”
I said this before, but I think polling is just fundamentally broken at this point. Given the Dobbs-driven results of the last two years, I believe will lose. Not in the 15 point landslide it should be. I think too many people live in their own siloed-off realities for that happen unfortunately
103.
cmorenc
Ugh. The CNN post-analysis is that Biden blew it, disasterous Biden performance, Democrats are in panic mode, and leaders should persuade Biden to step aside. That Trump lied his pants off, but used Biden’s responses to tee off on Trump’s talking points.
i’m debating with my brother on the phone and I was telling him that when it’s Joe turn to respond to Trump, just say “That’s exactly what a felon would say! Hey, I understand you can’t get any job now – is this the only one you can try for?”
You don’t even have to answer the question the moderator poses. It’s not like the moderator is going to stop you or press you to answer the question all that hard.
105.
Avalune
Well that was 90 minutes of my life I won’t get back. Where was knitting club? I need to make up for it somehow.
[I didn’t expect it to be otherwise but felt compelled to witness it anyway]. Bleh
106.
Leto
@cmorenc: Yeah, MSNBC doing the same on the “optics” and not on the fact that Trumpov lied every single time he opened his mouth.
107.
hrprogressive
For all the talk of “driving the notion”, the purportedly liberal MSNBC isn’t doing a great job of supporting the Democratic President.
Again, you can honestly say it wasn’t his best performance. It wasn’t. Objectively was not.
But focusing entirely on Biden not having the best night instead of focusing on the rambling Fascist standing next to him is, you know, not a great look.
Again, I am dubious of modern polling too, but I don’t think it’s the best position of strength to simply say “the polls are wrong, don’t worry”.
113.
SenyorDave
Here’s my big worry, and I had it going in. Large amounts of people have forgotten how bad things were in 2020, and how bad Trump was. Biden stumbled through much of the debate, and Trump sailed through with a thousand lies. Trump was tied going in despite the felonies and the sexual assault and business fraud issues.
I wanted Biden to mention the E Jean Carroll case to specifically point out he was the first ex-president to be found to have committed sexual assault. I wanted more focus on his legal issues, since Trump never answered questions he didn’t like there should have been no problem with Biden switching topics.
On CNN they think all the Democrats are panicking.
The Democrats are panicking. It’s what we do, given the tiniest excuse.
126.
Eolirin
@Soprano2: It’s only ever going to be about the optics. And unfortunately, not just with the journalists, but also with the electorate. The journalists are part of the reason why, so I don’t excuse them for failing in their vital and necessary role to inform.
But they’re businesses, at the end of the day, and the money is in feeling and vibe and scandal and entertainment. And that’s how too many people vote too.
Asimov summed up the core rot in our society with his “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge” line.
It’s pervasive in far more than just our electoral politics. And with the challenges laid ahead of us with climate change it may just be the death of us all, if we can’t overcome it.
127.
Mike E
@BeautifulPlumage: A much better framing device by the president would be “So, the question was ________ , which he did not answer, but I will…” Over and over again. Maybe he’ll get the chance to use it in the 2nd debate if Mango lives long enough to participate shows up for it.
Yes, but now you have influential people talking about “Democrats panicking” over this.
We can only hope in some respects that most normal voters aren’t actually chronically online the way we are and aren’t paying super close attention to this moment.
Lawrence O’Donnell pointing out that “optics” has shifted how presidential politics are viewed/covered. And not for the better.
133.
karen marie
@Leto: I was honestly shocked when Trump started on “post-birth abortion.” How was Biden not ready for that?
His prep team should be shot into the sun.
134.
UncleEbeneezer
@Eolirin: Absolutely. But that’s all the more reason the smart people on our side need to step up and resist the urge to make things worse by fueling shitty narratives for our side. I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
And don’t underestimate places like Twitter have tons of people on our side (including many with HUGE platforms). We can certainly make shit trend when it comes to bashing Biden. We just need to learn to understand our powers and use them for good.
I doubt anyone will really remember this in a week, given the modern news cycle
Trump saying that everyone wanted Roe vs Wade overturned may not be going away.
138.
Delk
@MomSense: I’m finishing off my very first pair of toe up socks and trying to figure out which way I want to bind off. I knitted both at the same time, trading off between the pair.
139.
PJ
@Al Rennick: Is it the immediate warmth or the eventual cold clamminess that you enjoy about bedwetting?
140.
The Thin Black Duke
Hey folks?
Do yourself a favor and don’t pay attention to Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, Stephen Colbert or Morning Joe this week.
It’s gonna be nothing but bad noise.
141.
Mike E
@hrprogressive: Yeah, CNN and MSNBC are fighting over the crumbs left over from the Fox News orgy, sad shit.
142.
SW
Go ahead and panic. Just remember to vote!
143.
hrprogressive
For all of Plouffe’s handwringing about Biden not doing great, he makes a good point that Convicted Felon Donald Trump didn’t appear to do great with swing voters in terms of bringing them over.
Again, to the extent this election will be marked by “voters on the margins”, how many of those people heard an unexciting Biden, compared to a lying-his-ass-off Convicted Felon Donald Trump, not answering any questions, etc, and decided the Felon was a great choice?
Probably not many.
But it could only take a few.
144.
Betty
At least David Plouffe noted in his focus groups that people noted Trump is still a lying liar. And now in the after show, Biden has his voice back.
I used to watch msnbc all the time but stopped as they got shittier.
146.
EmanG
It seems so easy “They want to kill babies after 9 months, rip them from the womb, etc. etc.” Reply “No Democrat thinks killing babies after their born is a form of abortion. It’s called infanticide and it’s against the law. How can anyone in their right mind suggest such a horror?” Or something along those lines. Jaysus, just call a liar a liar to his face. Please.
@Frankensteinbeck: If that’s the core thing that’s remembered from this, plus a couple of the hits like you’re a whiner, it’ll be a net positive.
If the weakness at the start was mostly from having a cold and the second debate doesn’t have that issue, we should be okay as far as the overall effects of the debates. But more is riding on that now. Biden needs to have enough moments showing the feeble and too old for the job stuff is bullshit, because it’s going to be a constant drumbeat, and any missed opportunity for it when people are paying even a little attention is a problem, even worse if what people see supports the idea. The recovery hopefully makes this one more of a wash.
@Suzanne: There’s upside, just like there was with the SOTU performance. Biden needs to be highlighting that he’s still capable of being President and getting Trump back into public awareness so he can draw a contrast.
If he hadn’t had a cold, and his performance had been consistently like the end throughout, we would all be having a very different conversation right now.
DFH
Hard to watch, still at it 9:10 central.
schrodingers_cat
Yep. He is lying. Why do white people like this guy?
TeezySkeezy
@schrodingers_cat: Because a lot of people are assholes and often racist and will align with a racist asshole of their own race because that’s just who they are.
Lily
It’s not a debate if one person who’s a known habitual liar is lying his flaming pants off.
3Sice
Joe’s got him off his talking points.
3Sice
It’s not high minded stuff but just keep calling him a loser.
Mousebumples
Not watching either. I heard Joe started calling out malarkey and catching a second wind.
And called the former guy a convicted felon?
zhena gogolia
@Mousebumples: Apparently he said he had the morals of an alley cat.
Old Dan and Little Ann
What will you do about child care?
Avalune
@Mousebumples: He’s had some good ones – called him a whiner too!
Frankensteinbeck
I’m not all that worried about the lies this time, because the lies are so obvious. This isn’t ‘say something that sounds reasonable but isn’t true’. Trump is going on and on about migrants, saying weird shit about absolutely clean air and water, saying events the public knows well like Charlottesville were ‘debunked’. If your lie is to say that everybody wanted Roe vs Wade to be overturned, nobody has to fact challenge you, because you sound like an idiot.
UncleEbeneezer
Starfish
The numbers. The numbers. The only number Trump has mentioned is 19.
Starfish
@UncleEbeneezer: Democrats are allowed to live in the reality-based community.
3Sice
@UncleEbeneezer:
This.
VFX Lurker
This white woman can’t say. He repulses me. However, maybe the convicted felon says what his mostly-white fans want to hear.
Suzanne
I’m sorry. I’m sick of hearing about the shitty moderation and lying. We all know he lies and there’s no way to rebut it in a debate format. Joe shouldn’t have agreed to this. This is a major strategic error.
mrmoshpotato
How will Jon Stewart “BOTH SIDES!” this orange shitstain’s crap tonight?
Mousebumples
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Frankensteinbeck:
The lie about of Roe v Wade, that “everyone wanted it overturned” should absolutely sink him. I wonder if he said that because he’s just that addled or because his team geniunely thinks that’s a winning position
different-church-lady
@Starfish: The reality is: Democrats don’t know how to drive a narrative.
Mousebumples
@zhena gogolia: that seems mean to alley cats.
Mousebumples
@Avalune: love to hear it!
VFX Lurker
I want that clip of the lying felon broadcasted far and wide.
Avalune
@schrodingers_cat: besides the obvious racist and bully overtones that draw out the racists and bullies… I also think sometimes it’s like when someone pretends they understand a joke when it makes no fucking sense but they are afraid to look stupid.
Or maybe we all have brain worms.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Starfish:
Meaning what?
different-church-lady
@Suzanne: At the time I did think, “Why trust CNN?”
zhena gogolia
@different-church-lady: Yes, that reply by Starfish is a beautiful demonstration of the truth of the adage.
Leto
@Mousebumples: I’ve seen some of those abortion commercials; they’re fucking brutal. Good, every single person needs to be hit with this every damned day. Good.
opiejeanne
@mrmoshpotato: don’t know, don’t care. I stopped respecting Stewart a long time ago, which is a shame because he used to be so good.
Starfish
Trump is talking about acing his cognitive test.
Avalune
Oh good we got man person woman camera tv back!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Suzanne:
There is if the moderators are willing to enforce the debate rules
Mousebumples
@Leto: Sen. Baldwin has a similar one against Hovde on the streaming channels right now. Hovde also ran (unsuccessfully) for Senate like 12 years ago, and he talked about wanting to outlaw abortion then.
Her campaign is coming with receipts.
mrmoshpotato
Dump: I’m excellent at not cheating at golf!
Albatrossity
The Gish Gallop is definitely something that Biden should have been prepared for. After all, TFG set a land speed record for lies in his first term, and he has only gotten worse. I suspect Joe would be ready for it if there is a round II, but I also suspect that Trump’s handlers will argue against a round II.
Of course, TFG will want to do this again, since his fans will tell him he won bigly. It will be an interesting exercise to keep him from following his reptilian instincts…
dmsilev
“Take a look at what he said he is and take a look at what he is” Heh.
zhena gogolia
On the other thread, debit just said BURN!!! What did that refer to?
Avalune
Oh damn! Hahaha Biden said he’d be happy to play golf against Trump if Trump carries his own clubs.
Can you do that?
Hahahaha I mean this is childish but funny.
dmsilev
Trump can’t bring himself to say that yes, he’d accept the results.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: Biden challenged Trumpov to a golf round if Trumpov carried his own clubs; lol
JWR
I just [tuned in] for this last half hour, and my God, WTH is wrong with Biden’s voice? (Must be those hyper drugs for Dementia.) But yeah, Trump just lies and lies about everything. And Joe, do not get into a debate about your damn handicap. Not here.
Starfish
“We’re a failing nation right now.” – Trump
zhena gogolia
@Leto: That’s a good one!
Eolirin
@different-church-lady: It’s very hard to drive a narrative when someone else has control of the car; we are at a fundamental disadvantage because we don’t control any of the media channels.
3Sice
Joe called him a fat ass.
Mousebumples
I’m sure we’re all surprised.
Maybe his cold meds are kicking in?
zhena gogolia
@Leto: She says Biden made a joke about what Trump says his height and weight are.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@dmsilev:
Not surprising, sadly, but an incredibly bad look for him
Leto
He. Will. Not. Answer. The. Fucking. Questions. Stop giving him more time. He had his time, move the fuck on.
dmsilev
Given another chance to answer the “will you accept the election result” question, he again refuses to answer.
p.a.
Tangental, but related to carrying golf clubs: does tRump have a driver’s license? Anyone ever seen a photo of him behind the wheel? Limos since he was a kid???
cain
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
That was never going to happen.
The only thing moderators are gonna do is make sure tehy don’t go over the time limit. The debate is between Joe and Trump, I don’t think it’s their job to jump in and fact check.
The thing is, nobody is going to keep up with Trump’s lies. I’m hoping that he’s told a lie that everyone even his supporters know it’s not true and hopefully that might make think.
All Biden needs to do is look presidential – and calm and speak slowly. In fact, the right way to do this is to make sure that he fades into the background and keep giving Trump more ammo and use quips like:
“oh that’s good one! I’m definitely going to use that on my attack ads”
He does _not_need to debate. Hell, he doesn’t even need to answer the questions proposed to him. IT’s not that kind of event.
3Sice
Trump is fucking this away.
Leto
@zhena gogolia: He did that too; Biden reminded everyone that old Ronnie Jackson said he was 6’ 4” and 235; Trumpov- “I never said that, I never said that”. Multiple burns in a row there.
Omnes Omnibus
“You’re a whiner.”
Tazj
@JWR: The White House has now stated(after the debate started) that he has had a cold for the last few days.
UncleEbeneezer
@different-church-lady: The reality is that in a social media world, we literally create the narratives with what we post and say. Putting our collective or underpants-wetting on public display only hurts us. One thing Republicans do better than our side is Message Discipline. We all can (and should) easily spin this is a win for Biden. Hammer Trump’s lies and Biden’s truths. Highlight the great sections and don’t even acknowledge the others.
FFS this isn’t complicated: Sell the story we want to sell and stop obsessing over the mistakes.
3Sice
Joe is clocking him and Trump can’t deal with it.
Leto
“He’s a whiner” LOOOOOL, that got to the shit stain; his face visibly scrunched up. Had to get himself under control there. Good barb, keep doing it.
cain
That is his people’s fault. They prepared him for talking to the American people. Any fool can look at all the footages of Trump’s previous debates – he’s following the exact same thing. He’s doing nothing different. This is his people’s fault for not prepping him properly.
Suzanne
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): A live debate cannot stand up to a Gish gallop. It makes terrible TV. It’s not interesting or memorable. Fact-checking is slow, methodical, requires parsing, requires good faith. None of that works in this format.
Funnily enough, the “readers added context” things on Xhitter are often really great and funny.
Biden should never have agreed to an in-person debate with this guy. Wrestling with a pig.
Leto
@Omnes Omnibus: that’s one of those old school insults, and I appreciate it.
zhena gogolia
@3Sice: I like the cut of your jib!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@cain:
I’d say, “everyone wanted Roe v Wade overturned” could qualify as that. Being hardline anti-abortion is generally not a popular position, even among some Republicans, as we’ve seen over the past two years
cain
@Leto:
Yes, but this is where joe needs to pounce and keep hitting him with jan 6 over and over and over again. Then go back to him being a felon – I mean, come on, yo. He’s a fucking criminal – treat him like one.
Old Dan and Little Ann
This has been quite the rollercoaster. Hang in there, Joe. He alway looks happier when he winds up the orange menace.
Mousebumples
Eolirin
Biden will do best if he successfully manages to land insults on Trump and that’s what people focus on.
All anyone really remembers from the 2020 debates is Malarkey!, C’mon Man, and Would You Shut Up?
The rest is just fodder for attack ads.
If we’re lucky there’ll be more focus on Trump never answering the questions than on Biden taking a little while to hit his stride or his voice being hoarse. And it’ll have to be luck. The journalists and social media reposts won’t be focused on substance.
Soprano2
TCFG is babbling some stuff that will have people going “Huh? What the hell is he talking about?”
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Of course Tapper & Bash weren’t gonna do anything. They are who they are.
I’m sure Joe’s team knew that going into this. If they didn’t account for that, well, they fucked up. Basically what cain said in #61. Shit happens in campaigning, it’s not the end of the world. Obama showed that in 2012 after his first debate with Rmoney.
Sucks, sure because, well, Failed Corporate Media. But also entirely predictable.
Nice to hear Biden recovered somewhat as things went along.
Per UncleEbeneezer: FFS this isn’t complicated: Sell the story we want to sell and stop obsessing over the mistakes.
3Sice
After Joe’s off note open all the felon had to do was take the high line. He can’t not jump into the pig shit.
Leto
@UncleEbeneezer: the #whiner tag needs to be trending now with his face on it.
@cain: we’re wrapping it up here, but incorporate that it for the next debate. If there is one.
Lyrebird
@UncleEbeneezer: I don’t always agree when people talk about narratives, but I am so glad you posted!
The convicted felon guy has his crew ready to call it his victory all over the airwaves… Even though the disadvantage @Eolirin: pointed out is real and a real problem, at least we can stand up for POTUS and Madame VP not cut them down!
Maybe the WH staff should’ve mentioned that POTUS has a cold before, maybe that would’ve been seen as trying to change expectations. POTUS has to swim upstream through all this MAGA crap…
mrmoshpotato
@p.a.: Dump screaming in that truck like a stupid child.
Frankensteinbeck
@cain:
Trump is punching himself in the face just fine there, repeatedly trying to claim it was no big deal and his supporters were peaceful and allowed in and that it’s all Nancy Pelosi’s fault. Joe has thrown some punches, but if someone has a takeaway at all about Jan 6th, it’s going to be that Trump is pretending it didn’t happen.
3Sice
I’m not living in hell.
I live in the greatest country – the United States of America.
zhena gogolia
@3Sice: Is that a quote or you’re saying that yourself?
Quadrillipede
Oh, are we no longer dooooomed?
Leto
@Mousebumples: Kamala would verbally eviscerate that fool, while looking absolutely fabulous doing it.
Mike E
Over at kos, Mark has long since thrown in the towel:
3Sice
@zhena gogolia:
Dumb dumb makes it easy.
Leto
@Frankensteinbeck: Trumpov is pretending so much shit didn’t happen, or did happen like VA funding, HBCU funding, or insulin price decrease. Always trying to take credit for shit he didn’t do.
Eolirin
@UncleEbeneezer: So much easier to do that when you’ve got bot armies simultaneously pushing the pro narrative you want for your side and also fomenting conflict in the discourse for the other side.
We have huge operational disadvantages because there’s no centralized propaganda machine working for us.
Leto
Maddow pointing that Biden got stronger, in both voice/answers, as the night went on; Trumpov was the inverse. Became more flustered as the night went on.
Splitting Image
I haven’t been watching the debate, but from following people’s reactions, I think the biggest loser here might be CNN.
It doesn’t sound like Trump has been doing himself any favours either.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Summer at Teh Orange summarizes it best:
Tonight might be a mess but the Biden campaign has shown how adroit it can be using episodes like this.
That needs to get hammered repeatedly going forward.
hrprogressive
Biden got exponentially better after the first 25 mins, and Trump got exponentially worse after that time too.
Biden sounded better, and sharper, even though his reported cold was a hamper.
Trump started word-salading pretty quickly, and he keeps going back to a bunch of buzzwords to excite his Fascist Cult…and not much else.
Does it make me concerned? Sure, but I’m concerned that Biden isn’t crushing Convicted Felon Donald Trump by 15 points because…come the fuck on, people.
Anyone who was taking their cyanide pulls before 945pm EST did so prematurely.
Anyone who thinks this was the best Biden performance ever needs to pull off their rose colored glasses.
Maddow basically just said what I was thinking too. They traded places of strength after the first 25-35 mins.
Of course now the talking heads are going to say things about whether he should even be in the race so.
Another Scott
I’ll be sending ddale8 my condolences.
Joe did well. Yeah, he stumbled a few times. Biden does that.
He made a strong case that TCFFG was lying about everything. He made a strong case for his policies, and the dangers of TCFFG’s policies.
“You’re a whiner.”
That should be a tagline that TCFFG is unable to escape.
Cheers,
Scott.
Soprano2
Just as I thought, CNN’s analysis is all about the optics, and not much about TCFG’s lies.
TBone
There’s only one thing to do. When you’re walking through hell, KEEP GOING. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get ready for the Supremacists Court tomorrow. I’m thankful for the speedy news cycle for the first time, I think. This’ll blow over.
Frankensteinbeck
Okay, my final takeaway is that the debate itself is going to have no effect except to make a lot of liberals have heart attacks because we were already pessimists and the 2016 election gave us PTSD from Hell. Instead, the effect of this debate will be an endless stream of political ads of Trump saying telling dumbass obvious lies. Hell, they’ll probably just grab him saying that everyone wanted Roe vs Wade overturned and hit that a million times. Who needs anything else?
Mike E
@Splitting Image: Honestly, I think the biggest loser here might be anyone who watches CNN. That jawn suuucks.
The Thin Black Duke
Mike Nelson, Tom Servo and Crow woulda been better moderators.
Mousebumples
Soprano2
Shit, this is going to start up the “Joe should step aside” crap again. On CNN they think all the Democrats are panicking.
Jackie
@Suzanne:
Biden initiated the debates invite. Including the rules. TCFG agreed to them.
TBone
@Mike E: 👍
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@The Thin Black Duke:
Follow Frank Coniff (TV’s Frank) on Twitter if you’re on Twitter.
Captain C
@Albatrossity:
As I wrote in the thread below:
BeautifulPlumage
I wish Biden would have called out the questions themselves. “Well Dana, I don’t agree with the premise of that question and here’s why…”
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@hrprogressive:
I said this before, but I think polling is just fundamentally broken at this point. Given the Dobbs-driven results of the last two years, I believe will lose. Not in the 15 point landslide it should be. I think too many people live in their own siloed-off realities for that happen unfortunately
cmorenc
Ugh. The CNN post-analysis is that Biden blew it, disasterous Biden performance, Democrats are in panic mode, and leaders should persuade Biden to step aside. That Trump lied his pants off, but used Biden’s responses to tee off on Trump’s talking points.
cain
@Frankensteinbeck:
i’m debating with my brother on the phone and I was telling him that when it’s Joe turn to respond to Trump, just say “That’s exactly what a felon would say! Hey, I understand you can’t get any job now – is this the only one you can try for?”
You don’t even have to answer the question the moderator poses. It’s not like the moderator is going to stop you or press you to answer the question all that hard.
Avalune
Well that was 90 minutes of my life I won’t get back. Where was knitting club? I need to make up for it somehow.
[I didn’t expect it to be otherwise but felt compelled to witness it anyway]. Bleh
Leto
@cmorenc: Yeah, MSNBC doing the same on the “optics” and not on the fact that Trumpov lied every single time he opened his mouth.
hrprogressive
For all the talk of “driving the notion”, the purportedly liberal MSNBC isn’t doing a great job of supporting the Democratic President.
Again, you can honestly say it wasn’t his best performance. It wasn’t. Objectively was not.
But focusing entirely on Biden not having the best night instead of focusing on the rambling Fascist standing next to him is, you know, not a great look.
p.a.
Maybe theMSM can rent a backbone and point out the incessant tRump lies and non-answers in their debate rundowns.
And my next Powerball ticket will be the big winner…
ETA: oh well…
Al Rennick
According to John King and Abby Philip, Democratic operatives are in full panic mode.
Kate Bedingfield, Van Jones and all the MSNBC talking heads are saying Biden lost tonight.
Biden’s performance was clearly a disaster. Ezra Klein, Nate Silver, and Mark Leibovich are 100% correct.
Balloon Juicers need to wake up. Biden must drop out of this race now
Anyway
@Suzanne:
I was told it was Biden and his team that pushed for the debate — looks like a miscalculation
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@cmorenc:
Did they forget that Obama also didn’t have a great first debate against Romney?
hrprogressive
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Again, I am dubious of modern polling too, but I don’t think it’s the best position of strength to simply say “the polls are wrong, don’t worry”.
SenyorDave
Here’s my big worry, and I had it going in. Large amounts of people have forgotten how bad things were in 2020, and how bad Trump was. Biden stumbled through much of the debate, and Trump sailed through with a thousand lies. Trump was tied going in despite the felonies and the sexual assault and business fraud issues.
I wanted Biden to mention the E Jean Carroll case to specifically point out he was the first ex-president to be found to have committed sexual assault. I wanted more focus on his legal issues, since Trump never answered questions he didn’t like there should have been no problem with Biden switching topics.
MomSense
@Avalune:
the first rule of knitting club is no one talks about knitting club?
Captain C
@Leto: Stormy Daniels: “Typical. The man has no stamina.”
Another Scott
@cmorenc: So, what we expected going in. Right?
People aren’t going to watch CNN to hear reports that the president was fine in the debate.
Don’t panic. It’s June. Biden did fine.
TCFFG is going to get nothing but bad news for weeks and months before the election.
Cheers,
Scott.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Al Rennick:
Aren’t you a notorious right-wing troll?
ETA: Also, Ezra Klein, Nate Silver, Van Jones? Those people are clowns
Leto
@Al Rennick: Welcome to the pie club! You’ll join a distinguished list of shitheads.
Avalune
@MomSense: oh dang – I’m already kicked out of knitting club! 😭
Avalune
@Al Rennick: how about nuuuuuuu
Quinerly
@Leto:
MSNBC is very depressing tonight. Did you catch Joy and Alex?
Captain C
@Another Scott:
Perhaps we should start a whispering campaign that the real reason TCFG left NYC is because deep down he knows we don’t abide whiners.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@hrprogressive:
But it’s not just the polls themselves, it’s about actual recent election results that paint a picture of energized Dem voters
The Thin Black Duke
@Another Scott: Thank you.
Frankensteinbeck
@Soprano2:
The Democrats are panicking. It’s what we do, given the tiniest excuse.
Eolirin
@Soprano2: It’s only ever going to be about the optics. And unfortunately, not just with the journalists, but also with the electorate. The journalists are part of the reason why, so I don’t excuse them for failing in their vital and necessary role to inform.
But they’re businesses, at the end of the day, and the money is in feeling and vibe and scandal and entertainment. And that’s how too many people vote too.
Asimov summed up the core rot in our society with his “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge” line.
It’s pervasive in far more than just our electoral politics. And with the challenges laid ahead of us with climate change it may just be the death of us all, if we can’t overcome it.
Mike E
@BeautifulPlumage: A much better framing device by the president would be “So, the question was ________ , which he did not answer, but I will…” Over and over again. Maybe he’ll get the chance to use it in the 2nd debate if Mango
lives long enough to participateshows up for it.hrprogressive
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Yes, but now you have influential people talking about “Democrats panicking” over this.
We can only hope in some respects that most normal voters aren’t actually chronically online the way we are and aren’t paying super close attention to this moment.
Al Rennick
@Leto:
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I’ll vote for any single Democrat over Trump.
Biden is simply too goddamn old for this job. I align with Jon Stewart who has also said that Biden is too old to be running.
oldgold
Of course they are focusing on optics. Television is a visual medium.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Al Rennick:
But Trump isn’t?
Leto
Lawrence O’Donnell pointing out that “optics” has shifted how presidential politics are viewed/covered. And not for the better.
karen marie
@Leto: I was honestly shocked when Trump started on “post-birth abortion.” How was Biden not ready for that?
His prep team should be shot into the sun.
UncleEbeneezer
@Eolirin: Absolutely. But that’s all the more reason the smart people on our side need to step up and resist the urge to make things worse by fueling shitty narratives for our side. I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
And don’t underestimate places like Twitter have tons of people on our side (including many with HUGE platforms). We can certainly make shit trend when it comes to bashing Biden. We just need to learn to understand our powers and use them for good.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@hrprogressive:
I mean, it’s June. I doubt anyone will really remember this in a week, given the modern news cycle
Mike E
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Heh, I have that one pied from way back.
Frankensteinbeck
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Trump saying that everyone wanted Roe vs Wade overturned may not be going away.
Delk
@MomSense: I’m finishing off my very first pair of toe up socks and trying to figure out which way I want to bind off. I knitted both at the same time, trading off between the pair.
PJ
@Al Rennick: Is it the immediate warmth or the eventual cold clamminess that you enjoy about bedwetting?
The Thin Black Duke
Hey folks?
Do yourself a favor and don’t pay attention to Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, Stephen Colbert or Morning Joe this week.
It’s gonna be nothing but bad noise.
Mike E
@hrprogressive: Yeah, CNN and MSNBC are fighting over the crumbs left over from the Fox News orgy, sad shit.
SW
Go ahead and panic. Just remember to vote!
hrprogressive
For all of Plouffe’s handwringing about Biden not doing great, he makes a good point that Convicted Felon Donald Trump didn’t appear to do great with swing voters in terms of bringing them over.
Again, to the extent this election will be marked by “voters on the margins”, how many of those people heard an unexciting Biden, compared to a lying-his-ass-off Convicted Felon Donald Trump, not answering any questions, etc, and decided the Felon was a great choice?
Probably not many.
But it could only take a few.
Betty
At least David Plouffe noted in his focus groups that people noted Trump is still a lying liar. And now in the after show, Biden has his voice back.
hrprogressive
@Mike E:
I used to watch msnbc all the time but stopped as they got shittier.
EmanG
It seems so easy “They want to kill babies after 9 months, rip them from the womb, etc. etc.” Reply “No Democrat thinks killing babies after their born is a form of abortion. It’s called infanticide and it’s against the law. How can anyone in their right mind suggest such a horror?” Or something along those lines. Jaysus, just call a liar a liar to his face. Please.
O. Felix Culpa
@The Thin Black Duke: Truth. I’d watch that debate for sure.
Eolirin
@Frankensteinbeck: If that’s the core thing that’s remembered from this, plus a couple of the hits like you’re a whiner, it’ll be a net positive.
If the weakness at the start was mostly from having a cold and the second debate doesn’t have that issue, we should be okay as far as the overall effects of the debates. But more is riding on that now. Biden needs to have enough moments showing the feeble and too old for the job stuff is bullshit, because it’s going to be a constant drumbeat, and any missed opportunity for it when people are paying even a little attention is a problem, even worse if what people see supports the idea. The recovery hopefully makes this one more of a wash.
Mike E
@karen marie: Seriously, stop it.
Mike E
@EmanG: Yeah, no. Don’t be even more ridiculous.
Suzanne
@Jackie: Then that was a stupid decision on his part. There’s no upside.
Quadrillipede
Counterpoint: no, he must not.
Eolirin
@Suzanne: There’s upside, just like there was with the SOTU performance. Biden needs to be highlighting that he’s still capable of being President and getting Trump back into public awareness so he can draw a contrast.
If he hadn’t had a cold, and his performance had been consistently like the end throughout, we would all be having a very different conversation right now.
Soprano2
@The Thin Black Duke: Colbert is on repeats this week, but otherwise yeah.
Geminid
@Quadrillipede: But if Nate Silver, Ezra Klein and Jon Stewart all agree, how could they be wrong? Their record in electoral politics is legendary!
Villago Delenda Est
Agree 100%, Cole. TCFFG/PAB was allowed to spew his lies without the slightest interruption. Tapper and Bash were utterly worthless as “moderators”.
The Lodger
@Avalune: Yeah, that was Trump’s ideal setup for this event. That’s who he was in the room with: a man, a woman, a camera, and TV.