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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Debating a Chaos Agent Leads to Chaos

Debating a Chaos Agent Leads to Chaos

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Debating a Chaos Agent Leads to Chaos

Josh Marshall often makes the point that understanding pro wrestling is a key to understanding Trump.  This is especially true for events like tonight’s debate.  I stopped watching pro wresting as a kid, so I’m not planning to watch the debate to see just which rules Trump breaks and what new batshit ideas he trots out.  I’ll be more interested in the takes and vibes, since those will fan out into social media and influence the undecided / sometimes voters who will decide this election mainly by their choice of whether to stay home or come out and vote.

The Biden campaign’s decision to push Trump into an early debate was probably driven by a combination of wanting to put Trump’s decline on stage, to show that Biden is still sharp, and to get people focused on the contrast between the actual two candidates rather than whatever bullshit is circulating on Grandma’s Facebook page.  I mean, it’s worth a try.   They were smart in ignoring the debate commission, thereby getting rid of some of the stupid stuff the commission insists on, like having a live audience.  The ability to mute mics is also a good thing.  Jake Tapper and Dana Bash have the ability to be decent moderators, but I’ll bet a shiny quarter that the ref working efforts of Trump’s army of ass lickers will keep the moderators from turning in a Kyle Clark debate performance.

Anyway, my expectations are some Trump “norm busting” (read:  rude asshole behavior), a decent performance by Biden where any mis-step he makes will be amplified on right-wing media, and an event that will be quickly forgotten by most unengaged voters, if they even pay attention in the first place.  Biden has always been a just OK debater, which is fine — Obama wasn’t that great either.    As Steve M pointed out, it would be great if Democrats started talking about the 140 officers injured during Jan 6, and maybe there will be a couple of Jan 6 questions that at least make Trump struggle a bit.  Otherwise, he’ll shit talk his way through the thing, as he always does.

We know what Trump’s like as President.  We know what Biden’s like as President.  The notion that 90 minutes (minus commercials, bleagh) will change any minds is pretty far fetched when you think about it.

Reader Interactions

92Comments

  2. 2.

    JPL

    It’s time for President Biden to use the snake story against trump, because he told us who he was.   Maybe call it a shark instead.

  3. 3.

    Renie

    I’m reading trump is ahead in swing states.  If this is true, I will never understand how so many Americans can be so ignorant and evil to support this disgusting human being.

  6. 6.

    RandomMonster

    I’m gonna watch the debate, at least some of it, just to judge for myself each side’s strategy (like Trump has strategy…I crack myself up) and each guy’s performance. Unfortunately, I have an appointment tomorrow so I can’t drink my way through it.

  7. 7.

    ArchTeryx

    Reposted from dead thread:

    If the SCOTUS overturns Chevron the civil service side of the federal government is effectively powerless. All regulatory power would promptly devolve to the states since Congress is perpetually gridlocked, which effectively means no more federal agencies with any power. That’s effectively pulling the doomsday switch on Republican government in this country.

    And that’s the point where I think the federal government – starting with Biden – needs to have its Andrew Jackson moment and simply declare the decision null and void, the court arrogating itself power it is not allowed to have. The Supreme Court does not have the power to make us into the Holy Roman Empire, and they should be summarily called out on it and ignored.

  9. 9.

    rikyrah

    I believe NOT having an audience is the best thing about tonight.

    Biden can only answer the questions given.

    Ready for the Orange Menace to be who he is.

  11. 11.

    dmsilev

    @Baud: One advantage of being a leftcoaster is that the thing starts at six.

    Not sure I want to watch Trump as I eat dinner though.

  12. 12.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Obama may not be a fantastic debater, but his zingers are first class.  “Please proceed, governor.”

  13. 13.

    kindness

    The Kreskin in me assumes Trump is going to bray and howl like a stuck wild critter.  I suspect he’ll try to prowl the stage again (Hillary redux) when his mic is cut and shout over Biden and the moderators.

    Really CNN needed to go with locked soundproof booths since a ball gag would be a tad unseemingly.

    Also too, it’ll be minutes before chopped up and faked videos of the debate get released and those will be the one’s right wing media will push.

  15. 15.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    We know what Trump’s like as President.  We know what Biden’s like as President.  The notion that 90 minutes (minus commercials, bleagh) will change any minds is pretty far fetched when you think about it.

    Lots assumptions about “we” in this take.

    I think we’re clearly seeing that “we” include a lot of voters who make their choices based on other factors than the ones valued by the Balloon Juice readership. So I strongly disagree with this take.

  17. 17.

    Mike E

    @schrodingers_cat: White supremacy is in its end stages, and “polls” are a means to an end. We must not ignore the aims and methods being deployed here which serve to demoralize us into not taking action to combat it.

  23. 23.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    Polls may tell you something, but they’re shit at predicting election results. Yet we’re supposed to treat them as gospel. 

    They say “the numbers don’t lie.” Once you’re taking samples instead of actual measurements, that’s no longer true.

  24. 24.

    TBone

    Joy Behar says the debate moderator introduction for Dotard should be

    “Will the Defendant please rise.”

    😆

  25. 25.

    Geoduck

    I agree with Formerly disgruntled in Oregon; we’re political junkies here. A whole lot of people just don’t pay attention to this stuff until the election campaign is fully underway. They need to be reminded who the Shaitgibbon is again and again and again.

  27. 27.

    TBone

    Rules to remember while debate watching:

    https://digbysblog.net/2024/06/27/rules-to-debate-watch-by/

    Every accusation is a confession.
    Every denial is a full confession of guilt.
    Every claim of evil is projection.
    Every boast of strength is an admission of failure.
    Every fact is subject to Trump’s sole interpretation.
    Every law is a conspiracy against Trump.
    Every anecdote is pure fiction.
    Every casual cruelty and crazed conspiracy leads deeper into more cruelty and conspiracy.
    Every word is a lie, every lie is a promise of betrayal.
    Every person or group Trump claims to stand for, he loathes.
    Finally, Everything Trump Touches Dies.

    That sums it up neatly. But ICYMI, I’d add this about MAGA, Christian nationalists, or financial or tech oligarchs, or all of the above (it’s a type):
    They don’t want to govern. They want to RULE.

  28. 28.

    catclub

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Polls may tell you something, but they’re shit at predicting election results. Yet we’re supposed to treat them as gospel.

     

    The election market betting was 80%+ for Clinton all of 2016.  This year Trump is a bit ahead in that market.  I don’t see it.

  30. 30.

    K-Mo

    Trump is thoroughly ensconced in the Tyson Zone.  I wouldn’t bat an eye if he brought out an air horn and blew out every time Biden spoke.   I wouldn’t be surprised if he gave the whole event the silent treatment or stormed off the stage, or demanded to be addressed as 47, or fell asleep, or proposed doing away with Congress, or insisted that he be the moderator, or,  … anything

  32. 32.

    Anoniminous

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    When 70%+ of the population cannot be randomly selected and included the results of polling are mathematically meaningless.  The Confidence Level lies somewhere between pfffftttttthhhhh and hardy-har-har.

  34. 34.

    Lyrebird

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:  Yeah, I’m happy to see MisterMix on here posting, HI!!!, and I will disagree.

    Joey O’Biden’s performance against wink wink Gov. Palin was very effective.

    I don’t think avoiding a debate was a good option, and sometimes you have to choose between rough options.

    I also agree that we have options in choosing how we look at things.

  36. 36.

    Trivia Man

    “Never argue with an idiot. He’ll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.”

    ”Don’t wrestle a pig – you both get muddy but he likes it.”

  37. 37.

    Tony Jay

    @JPL:

    “Farmer has to cross a river in a rowboat to get to market. He has to take with him a shark, a battery and Donald Trump. In what order does he do it?”

                          THINKING TIME

    “Doesn’t matter. Just take the shark and the battery. You can’t sell Donald Trump, he’s worthless.”

  38. 38.

    catclub

    @Belafon: Good question. Romney and the money gang were surprised at losing. I know that.

    It was really amazing that he was re-elected with nearly 8% unemployment. ( it fell below 8 in october)

  39. 39.

    catclub

    @Belafon: I searched and could not find it. But I found a pretty regrettable headline for Kiplinger:

    The Surprising Accuracy of Online Election-Betting

    Kiplinger
    https://www.kiplinger.com › investing › bonds

    Sep 26, 2016 — Polls show a tight race for the White House, but betting sites have the odds firmly favoring Clinton.

  41. 41.

    TBone

    @catclub: that wasn’t a quote from me, but point taken!  They’ll be waving the same white flag of surrender before this is all said and done.

  42. 42.

    Doc Sardonic

    With regard to numbers not lying, remember, it can be mathematically proven that you only work 1 day per year.

  47. 47.

    TBone

    @Trivia Man: Joe Biden isn’t there to argue with a pigeon who shits all over the chess board, knocks over all the pieces, and declares victory anyway.  He’s there to land some upper cuts to the jaw while smiling his most handsome, twinkly grin.

    Dark Brandon appearances will be an added bonus.

  48. 48.

    Marcopolo

    Dunno if anyone has posted a link to Triumph confronting a panel of undecided voters…it is both funny & horrifying but nails the strangeness of there being people who don’t think they know enough about Biden/Trump to make a choice.  Especially if they were old enough (I’ll say voting age in 2016) to have lived through the past 8 years.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/triumph-the-insult-comic-dog-undecided-voters_n_667ce1ffe4b05521a7f0b5b9

    As for watching the debate—not gonna change my mind so not sure why I should bother.

  49. 49.

    hrprogressive

    Pro Wrestling has way more legitimate credibility than Trump, because kayfabe is alive, and we know it’s all a story being told…whereas the Cultists truly believe the shitshow that exists only in their heads is reality, and reality is phony.

  52. 52.

    Old Man Shadow

    The notion that 90 minutes (minus commercials, bleagh) will change any minds is pretty far fetched when you think about it.

    I think you underestimate how disconnected and stupid many voters are. Getting a debate done early gets buzz generated and buzz is all that matters now apparently.

  55. 55.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Marcopolo: There is a large amount of willful ignorance in an Undecided Voter if they are over the age of say 22.

    It’s not that they can’t figure out what they want and who’d be best to give it to them. It’s that they, by and large, they don’t want to think about it that hard and if someone could just tell them what to do and have it work out, that’d be best.

    Problem is is that we aren’t talking about surface level analysis of a live sporting event; we’re talking about the hideously complex nature of organizing and governing the very society we live in. That can’t be boiled down to a one sentence statement.

    So they just default down to whoever conveys the right vibe to them personally, and if no one does, they don’t bother.

  57. 57.

    TBone

    @BlueDWarrior: watch the video at #48 (scroll down at link to see full video)

    Priceless!

    I am sure some of the insults were dubbed in later but it’s ROFLMAO

  59. 59.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @NotMax:  hahaha! i figured.

    nice. i thought that movie missed more than it hit, but i thought chiklis was great as “the only mook from brooklyn who’s been to outer space.”

  60. 60.

    Ruckus

    @Renie:

    Oh come on, many people want the government we had over 250 yrs ago – none. They do not want everyone represented. They want what shitforbrains is selling – power for the stupid and hateful. They want what he is selling because he is one of them. But he is also a multi billionaire! (He can’t find those billions but still he must be one!)  More likely it’s because he hates the same people they do. You know humans…..

  61. 61.

    Frankensteinbeck

    From Biden’s perspective, I think the lesser purpose of the debate is to show a lot of people who have only heard “IS BIDEN TOO OLD???” how smart and vigorous he is.  The greater purpose of the debate is to show those people that Trump isn’t a clown, he’s a deranged, senile asshole.  Most people are repulsed by Trump, but they have to see how bad Trump is.  This is about getting past media curation and showing the public who the candidates actually are.

  67. 67.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Frankensteinbeck: I think lots of people block out part of the Trump debacle because it’s 1) disturbing and 2) unbelievable. Obviously, I watched the coverage of Jan 6 live, but I was still shaken when the Jan 6 committee showed the footage. I’d managed to forget just how shocking it was.

  68. 68.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @NotMax: as if my nym doesn’t give it away, i’m an old-school comic nerd. sold off my collection a while back but kept the gems. i’m well aware of timely comics, the human torch, his partner toro and his battles with namor, the sub-mariner.

    eta- they brought him into the 616 a few years back, he was supposed to be the base-frame ultron used when he built the vision but then later the torch returned to active service with the west coast avengers, alongside the vision, after some timey-whimey, wibbly-wobbly stuff involving immortus.

  69. 69.

    Ruckus

    @BlueDWarrior:

    That can’t be boiled down to a one sentence statement.

    In this case it actually can be.

    Dotard is a useless, hateful pile of shit who has only gotten worse over time and exposure.

    That wasn’t difficult at all. But. There are more than 10 humans in this country that adore useless, hateful piles of shit. A lot more. Likely fewer than last time but then some will see what it actually happens when you hire a useless pile of shit to a position so far over their head that their ignorant hate is not even in the direction of enough.

  70. 70.

    Suzanne

    I am going to hot yoga tonight, and I really would prefer not to spoil the limp noodle euphoria by listening to that schmuck flatulate all over the television. But SuzMom wants to watch it. So I will see how much I can avoid.

  74. 74.

    TBone

    Just less than 48 hours after an OK Supreme Court ruling that religious charter schools are unconstitutional, State Superintendent Ryan Walters dramatically escalates his challenge of the separation of church and state by requiring all schools teach the Bible.

    https://x.com/AlexIp718/status/1806374536893378586

    Hmmm, just ignoring the state Supreme Court when you don’t like the ruling.  Maybe there’s something to that…

    🎶

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4QjTzSc93Hc

  77. 77.

    Ruckus

    @Doc Sardonic:

    I don’t work one day per year.

    I mean sure, I vacuum the apartment – on occasion, I eat food, I – OK that’s enough…. But work, I’m done with that. I did it for 60 yrs and I’m not doing it another day…. The pay is no longer worth it. The retirement income is though.

  79. 79.

    TBone

    @NotMax: yep, but the Supremacists Court will get the case once appealed.  Scalito and his crew will be orgasmic.  In their very disgusting to normal people way.

  84. 84.

    Ruckus

    @Renie:

    It seems that there is always a proportion of any large group of humans that have an IQ just above that of a corpse and therefore can be instructed to doing most anything completely stupid. And they are aided by the next up IQ level of humans that at least understand that they need to follow someone but still low enough that they almost as easily can be guided by someone only 1 step below them. In case you hadn’t noticed, this is not an insignificant percentage of human beings. And one more side part – if said bottom 2 levels live in proximity to each other they then can make up a rather large percentage of the voting age population of an area or even a state.

    In the not so distant past shitforbrains could influence these people.  But given his rapid/massive face-plant into senility, even many of his normal followers seem to be taking a pass on this rather obvious head first dive into senility he has decided would be fun to participate in. Said decision is a rather strong indicator that said senility had already taken up residence in his rapidly shrinking mental abilities, which were not all that and a bag of chips in the first place.

  85. 85.

    Ruckus

    @NotMax:

    First, I didn’t say how often….

    Second, I didn’t say I turned the vacuum on or even plugged it in. I do however see it when I open the closet door to get something to wear.

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Renie:  Is this from the Siena poll?  If so, I would disregard it.    If Trump is actually near 30% with AA voters, I would be very surprised.  The rest of their numbers are equally squirrelly.

  89. 89.

    ...now I try to be amused

    Malcolm Tucker may be a fictional character (The Thick of It, In the Loop) but he knew election campaigns. He wrote this about undecided voters:

    The only ones watching [the debates] are going to be the pointless bastards who already know what they think.

    We need to get to the people who only hear the rumours. Bottom feeders who get their views via the quotes from the models in the Daily Star. Van drivers who guard their vast ignorance with concealed Stanley knives. Businessmen who like to expose their self-aggrandising cynicism to schoolgirls on the Thameslink. These dumb motherfuckers are the battlefield. Shitheels. Dunderheads. People who when you talk to them it’s like shouting through six pieces of double glazing. Potheads, cider drinkers, kids who don’t know who Thatcher was and think the NHS grew on a big fucking NHS tree. Wankers. People who count to 11 using their 10 fingers and their head and still get it wrong. This is who we have to get to via the debates. So we are going to have to shout extremely fucking loud.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/09/bottom-feeders-battlefield-cider-potheads

  91. 91.

    Trivia Man

    @TBone: I agree – the debate is worth doing. Just reminding everyone of some old and relevant quotes to help focus on keeping cool and staying on OUR plan.

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