Good thing it’s a short work week (for most of us); actual hanabi (‘fire flowers’) beat on-line fireworks six days out of five, IMO. (Heard the first burst of a professional show somewhere in the neighborhood last night, and expect more through the next seven to ten days.)
If we want to protect our fundamental freedoms and democracy, then we need to re-elect @JoeBiden and @KamalaHarris. pic.twitter.com/LTz5wsJOcQ
— Gretchen Whitmer (@gretchenwhitmer) June 30, 2024
Sharing is caring:
This article and thread is a great reminder that red state Dems don't give a shit about playing politics like fantasy football. They put up with so much GOP governance bullshit and it's our duty to get them a Dem president so that at least one person has their back https://t.co/rJ6lucSEEo
— The okayest poster there is (@ok_post_guy) June 30, 2024
Parties and protests mark the culmination of LGBTQ+ Pride month in NYC, San Francisco and beyond https://t.co/39XAD1zlNc
— The Associated Press (@AP) June 30, 2024
The reason the polling hasn’t changed since the debate is because it’s the press, not the people, who became addicted to the drama under Trump. Normal people don’t like living with existential dread, they may not like Biden being old, but the choice is still an easy one.
— Jason Karsh (@jkarsh) June 30, 2024
this organic video of Biden at Waffle House post-debate is going viral on multiple social platforms
on tiktok it’s hit 1.3M views over 250k likes in under 24hrs
yes theres lots of difficult clips/memes from the debate circulating BUT real content like this can be powerful too pic.twitter.com/iJrxUddr7o
— Annie Wu?? (all socials: @annie_wu_22) (@Annie_Wu_22) June 29, 2024
.@mollykmurphy on what the Biden campaign tracking numbers are saying: "Voters are capable of taking in a lot." pic.twitter.com/xpw3KcbvET
— Inside with Jen Psaki (@InsideWithPsaki) June 30, 2024
Cleveland native, harassed Zoom dad, BBC consultant & professor of political science in Korea:
This is wrong. If you’re a conservative, you’ll vote for Biden.
Biden is an institutionalist who believes in rules, norms, and patterns. Trump is not; he’s almost a nihilist.
Biden accepts social change; Trump’s cult is deeply reactionary.
Conservatives accept that change… https://t.co/XJ7EKXlds5
— Robert E Kelly (@Robert_E_Kelly) June 30, 2024
On The Road – Albatrossity – Costa Rica — Week 5
Baud
Good time for Biden to go populist.
Regular folks understand being imperfect and getting shit on for it.
satby
Amanda Marcotte on today’s exciting agenda:
eclare
Reposted from dead thread: Mika made a strong case for Joe Biden in an eighteen minute editorial. And she mentioned the Philadelphia Inquirer piece.
SiubhanDuinne
Happy Canada Day!
🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
satby
Robert E Kelly is BBC dad, the reporter who gamely tried to carry on with his zoom interview while his wife crawled into the room to corral the children.
SFAW
Re: pundits: a nurse I sometimes work with — pretty damn liberal, hates Trump with a passion — informed me on Friday that President Biden will drop out. Her source (so to speak)? Tom Friedman.
I semi-politely informed her that Friedman is “a moron,” and she should ignore him. Went on to mention “Friedman units,” and how the term came about. Despite her leftiness, she still believes the FTFTFNYT is a liberal paper. I tried to disabuse her of that idea.
She watched the debate ex post facto, and listened to some of it on NPR on her drive home from work, and thus was scared/worried/appalled. She’ll still vote for Biden, but her reaction worried me.
WereBear
Golly gee, conservatives want gradual change through institutions? As someone who grew up in the back of beyond in small Southern towns… that is not their real choice.
I believe it’s actually standing athwart history yelling “stop!” All those bigots crying “too soon!” means “only when I’m dead.” And preferably, their drive for control being so overwhelming, when their grandchildren pass on, too.
Baud
@SFAW:
Half our party are slaves to the NYT.
Next time we ask how we ended up here, we should first look in the mirror.
trnc
@Baud:
I can’t help but notice that when TCF says all of things he says, the media treat the job of president almost like a figurehead, but when Biden has a bad 15 minutes, suddenly it’s the most important job in the world again – until TCF’s next rally.
trnc
@eclare: Good! Thanks.
WereBear
@trnc: They think their job is to make the race even. Which is why they are making spectacular fools of themselves by over-pompous-punditing.
Basic corporate crawl. At that level, it’s life itself.
trnc
@WereBear: Yup!
Don
Well, if you thought Democrats were different, now we know. Blame anyone other than who is responsible. “Are you going to blame me or your lying eyes?” You can’t unsee what we saw. Joe Biden cannot beat Donald Trump, and I don’t know that anyone can. Mary Trump is right. He always wins. The Biden family is going to prop him up. Blame the media! Dems in disarray. Again. Goddamnit!
Tony Jay
With three more sleeps over here in Hell’s Own Oubliette until the Dark Blue Meanies get booted in favour of the Light Blue Meanies, I can tell you with no hesitation or doubt that I would frigging well love to have a Biden/Harris ticket to vote for.
We might not see eye to eye on a range of issues, and between them they absolutely insist on bringing Old Like The Mountains and Recklessly Black to the table, but neither of them are smarmy little backstabbing fucks offering eight parts gaslighting spite to one part 2010-era Tory austerity and the death of all hope, so that’s all-good in my book.
Fuck the Media. Fuck the spin. You’re all going to vote Dem no matter your opinions of Biden’s debate performance and that’s what matters.
That is all.
Don
@Baud: We lost the populist path when we took Wall Street’s money.
Another Scott
Eyes on the prizes.
(Via JoJoFromJerz)
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
I’ll never forgive Biden for giving full employment to trolls.
TBone
Heather Cox Richardson today beats Dotard like a rented mule (pardon the expression). She is on point and has been every day for years. Mudsills, indeed:
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/june-30-2024
Dorothy A. Winsor
@SiubhanDuinne: Happy Canada Day to you too!
I grew up in Detroit. This time of year, Detroit and Windsor always jointly sponsored fireworks over the river separating the two countries.
WereBear
@SiubhanDuinne: May the maple be with you!
SFAW
@Baud:
I would, but I can’t see my own reflection. Or is it that I don’t want to frighten myself? I can never remember.
But, yeah. I partly blame the ongoing (attempted) destruction of the public education system by the RWMF/Christianist/Rethugs. It’s been going on for at least 40 years, and Trump being a viable candidate is one of the results.
SFAW
@WereBear:
Thank FSM you didn’t choose “poutine” instead of “maple.”
MagdaInBlack
I made it thru the weekend without handing out even one pie. But today GD it, I just handed out my first. We’ve had 3 days to settle our feelings, and I am not going back to the pearl clutching, DON.
SFAW
@Don:
Yes, the two parties are exactly the same.
SFAW
@Don:
Thanks for sharing your valuable insights.
TBone
If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.
We must remain united. It’s right there in the name!
My inner hippie is centering peace today, in preparation to quell my rebellious heart for what may be coming at us from the Supremacists Court. I wish I could gin up my usual optimism, but I suspect I’m going to need actual gin later this afternoon.
🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=deW7_D5qems
SFAW
@MagdaInBlack:
I was wondering about whom you were talking, but scrolled up a little further, and it became obvious.
satby
@Baud: right? A new one, like our regulars weren’t annoying enough.
MagdaInBlack
@SFAW: 😉
TBone
@Baud: 😂
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone😊😊😊
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
SFAW
@satby:
Not annoying enough? I guess I better up my game.
TBone
Hubby has been muttering about the fuckening for three days. Sometimes, he doesn’t merely mutter.
When your day is going along too good and you suspect something is about to happen. Finally…
Ah, there it is! The fuckening!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@SFAW:
This doesn’t get said enough. I mentioned it in a thread last night.
40 years ago the assault on public education started in earnest. Two, possibly three or more generations of people who lack critical thinking skills are signing in, signing up … and voting. Or worse, running for office.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2015/08/09/no-one-could-have-predicted-schoolteacher-edition/#comments
An ignorant population is a compliant one, or one easier to propagandize, or something. There’s a quote around to that effect that I can’t find at the moment.
TBone
Reminder: Steve Bannon’s Finding Out portion of FAFO begins today! So there’s that. My black heart leaps in anticipation.
Ken
Just slap it over a picture of Abraham Lincoln or Albert Einstein and put quote marks around it. Nine-tenths of people will believe that’s who said it, because of the aforesaid campaign for ignorance.
(The exact number is 87%, but as Sigmund Freud said, 62% of statistics are made up on the spot.)
SiubhanDuinne
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
When I lived in Flint, a bunch of us would usually drive down to see the fireworks. Nice memories!
Chris Johnson
@Don: Dude, he’s barely winning the Republican primary. I don’t know what they had to give Nikki Haley (or what they had to threaten her with) to make her go away, but the guy rightly doesn’t even have all the Republicans. What are you even smoking? ‘cos I don’t want that shit anywhere near me, looks like it’s bad for you.
TBone
@TBone: getting together 🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr_7SBGDqBo
The speech given at the beginning 💜✌️
sdhays
@Tony Jay: Has
Prime MinisterStarmer (sorry, I guess it’s not official yet) given any indication on what a new Labour government will do differently? Or are they mostly running on “not Sunak”?SiubhanDuinne
The ever-reliable FTFNYT has vomited up perhaps its most offensive and insulting headline ever. (ETA) The more I look at it, the more I see wrong with it. just awful.
sab
@MagdaInBlack: Martin got my pie filter last night, but I am sure I’ll relent tonight.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne:
It’s time for Biden to give a long interview with NYT Pitchbot.
TBone
@Baud: part of being a great legal assistant included volunteering to cover for an attorney who made a screwup. Blame it on me, your faithful, trusty assistant, boss! I’ll gladly allow the client to believe that your mistake was the fault of your underling. Now, where’s that bonus?
Frankensteinbeck
I see the Brinks trucks full of cash are back. How much do you want to bet one of our sudden nym explosion is that same person?
Spanky
Happy Canada Day to all of you who swing that way.
TBone
@SiubhanDuinne: look away, it’s hideous!
sdhays
@Baud: I wonder how the FTFNYT would handle Biden giving an interview to, say, Paul Krugman. It would be an interview for the FTFNYT, but it wouldn’t be the “right people”. Would it piss them off even more than no interview at all?
Baud
@sdhays:
From what I understand, Krugman shit the bed here.
eclare
@SiubhanDuinne:
So just ignoring the fact that voters actually voted for him. Again, the arrogance is infuriating. Our votes don’t matter. FTFNYT is a TCFG mouthpiece, or bullhorn, more accurately.
3Sice
Once the counter-revolutionary forces seize control of the radio station there is a 12-24 hour window to move popular opinion and the state security apparatus.
After that, toss the burner, grab the go bag and run your own exfiltration. Because your co-conspirators are clearly idiots.
satby
@Baud: oh, god, that would be awesome! And burn the NYT so much.
Baud
@eclare:
Like I said, they own half the Dem party. I can’t even blame them that much anymore for taking advantage of the power our people give them.
Spanky
@SiubhanDuinne: Clearly, that headline writer is bucking for a bonus.
TBone
Finding a reason to celebrate.
SiubhanDuinne
@Baud:
I wish, I wish!
WereBear
@SiubhanDuinne: Wow. That much projection can’t be looked at directly.
The goggles! They do nothing!
sdhays
@Baud: Oh, that’s too bad. The only other columnists I’m aware of are the mustache of freedom and the awful conservatives.
ETA: I haven’t gone to the site in years.
satby
@Baud: Krugman is great at economics. Not so much with the political instincts. I wish he’d leave the NYT, because being immersed in that toxicity has to affect rational thought.
WereBear
@Baud: He didn’t win the Nobel Prize in politics.
WereBear
@satby: Yes, corporatesplaining is equally annoying.
JWR
@SiubhanDuinne:
Co-authored by Thomas Friedman and… Paul Krugman?
But srsly, back in 2008 and Krugman was all in for HRC, he followed the pack down the Taylor Marsh rathole. Its been that long since I’ve read him.
Frankensteinbeck
I hate every time I have to talk this blog down off the doom cliff, and I have taken several long breaks because of it, but at least it’s taking hold now.
TBone
One to watch: Corner Post versus The Federal Reserve. Facepalm…
https://www.lawdork.com/p/forget-the-imperial-presidency-john
Also, Kagan’s “I Dissent!” read from the bench Friday last.
p.a.
Was Joe’s real plan last week to drive more visitors to B-Juice? Get us into the Top-5,000 Lib Blog tier?
As a long-timer, I may not bring much to the group, but these nubes are horrible!
Leto
@MagdaInBlack: oh, my diet of pie has gone up quite a bit with doom spouting new names. Debate and discussion? Sure. Your first comment is to call for Biden to drop out? Can fuck right off with that.
sdhays
@Frankensteinbeck: Sincerely, thank you for your service.
hueyplong
@Don: “We lost the populist path when we took Wall Street’s money.”
Thanks, best laugh I’ve had since before the debate, but likely to be surpassed if we get video of Bannon reporting to prison. Or, better still, Bannon not reporting and being slow-chased in a white Bronco.
eclare
@Frankensteinbeck:
Thank you!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Frankensteinbeck:
It’s early. Stock up on coffee.
Jeffro
it’s a simple choice: the older guy, or the old, insane arsonist (who also happens to be a rapist)
Baud
@Frankensteinbeck:
I didn’t know before the debate whether we’re doomed. And I don’t know now. I just try to fight.
Leto
OT: day 3 of the Tour de France. They started this year’s Tour in Italy, and they’re currently passing about 2 1/2 hours SW of where we were stationed. Today’s finish is in Turin. Fun fact, the Tour will finish in Nice this year, not Paris, due to the start of the Olympics.
satby
Via YouTube, Sect. Pete with the definitive answer on the debate question.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@satby:
Korporate Kulture! But yeah, he’s said some things over the last several years that are seemingly at odds with his lifetime’s work in economics but fully onboard with the general push and tone of FTFNYT.
caphilldcne
@Baud: I cancelled my NYT subscription following the Biden should drop out editorial. I am one of those liberals who generally appreciated their news gathering and some of their columnists. I’ve considered cancelling in the past and in fact did so once before, I don’t remember why, but came back in the run up to the 2016 election. I guess I wish they were a better paper than they actually are.
Baud
@Leto:
Might be the first Nazi Olympics since 1936! :-\
Baud
@caphilldcne:
Proud of you.
Kay
As a red state Dem I can assure you many, many red state Dems handwring with the best of them. They’ve been worried about Bden’s bad polling for months. This debacle plugged into an already-existing concern. Some of them want to replace him, some of them don’t. None of them are turning cartwheels.
Why can’t the poster just state his own opinion, instead of buttressing it with this imaginary army of “salt of the earth” types who agree with him? It’s not confident.
If you’re on a social media site and you’re curating who you follow and read you are likely following people who agree with you – that’s why everyone on your social media thinks like you do. It’s not some commentary on the country – it’s commentary on YOU – who you choose to read.
moonbat
@Frankensteinbeck: I appreciate your efforts. Frankly, I didn’t think it would take this long for everyone to take a deep breath and get back on track.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Baud:
And the other half to NPR. A Venn diagram would be interesting.
Suzanne
@SFAW:
I want to see Biden sitting for interviews all over the place. TV, podcast, print, whatever. Press conferences. It’ll be easier to dismiss it as “one bad night” or a cold, if there’s more recent and ample evidence of that.
When I said this last night, some snark was thrown my way…. “Like the North Carolina rally?”. No, not like the North Carolina rally. Like conversation. Interplay. Not reading a script. A venue where Joe can show off some humor and relatability and set everyone’s mind at ease about his competence. He’s a funny and charming guy.
The media reports that Biden’s team hasn’t put him out there much. For better or worse, that’s the kind of thing that makes people think that it isn’t “one bad night”. So put some good appearances out there. Be accessible.
Baud
@Kay:
I for one don’t think most people agree with me. Doesn’t mean I’m going to silence myself.
satby
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: everyone likes to stay employed.
Baud
@Suzanne:
I would like to see that too. Everywhere except the NYT.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Leto: We were once in Paris on the last day of the Tour. They rode right past our hotel. Good memories.
Chief Oshkosh
@satby: I know, SATBY! I’ve been meaning to talk to you about your performance…
;)
Kay
@Suzanne:
Kay
@Suzanne:
Ithink it’s a great idea. Go in not caring at what the questions are – whether they are policy-related or not. Biden can be charming. Go out and be charming. But not speeches – no teleprompter. An authentic back and forth.
Mousebumples
Happy Monday. First of 2 “staycation” days, ahead of the holiday this week – littles are still going to “school” (daycare) so I can get stuff done around the house.
I understand the concerns many have about Biden – I do too! But I don’t think changing the candidate at this stage will help, so and I’m riding with Biden.
Lots of down ballot opportunities to goose up turnout. If we want to have any chance at expanding the Supreme Court, we need to keep the Senate, too.
Panic paralyzes me. I’m going to keep my nose down and just do the work. Control what I can control. All I can do. Let’s do this.
SFAW
@eclare:
Which is why I refer to them as “FTFTFNYT” — the fourth and fifth letters stand for “Trump Fluffing.” [One assumes you know the terms “fluffer” and “fluffing.”]
satby
@Kay: If you’re on a social media site and you’re curating who you follow and read you are likely following people who agree with you –
Uh, no, you can curate to avoid NAZIS and bots and still see plenty of sources that don’t agree with you. Personally, that’s what I do, also why I subscribed to the Bulwark which, though never Trumpers, were still very conservative. Lots of us don’t need to be in an echo chamber. And consider simple disagreement as potentially useful dialogs, not shutting down debate.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@satby: I guess the Nobel prize money doesn’t go as far as it used to thanks to Biden’s Inflation.
satby
@Chief Oshkosh: 😂
I’m sure deficient in many ways.
satby
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: ok, bowing to a master of the genre.
WereBear
Let Joe be Joe.
oldgold
Why not have Biden go to John Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic and undergo a thorough and completely transparent neurological exam? If there is no problem – great. If there is – deal with it.
TBone
@TBone: 🎶
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GaH25Sghoqc
Too old for bullshit ☝️ today. Life is for living!
Baud
@oldgold:
It’s a sign of weakness with no upside because no one will accept a clean bill of health.
Leto
My filter is being fed early and often this morning. Not even 9am.
satby
@Kay: oh, and I missed this gem from you, and wonder why the red state Dems you refer to aren’t imaginary but someone else refers to what they heard from people and theirs all are imaginary? Interesting.
Kay
@satby:
It isn’t even accurate as to that article. I would bet money the person who linked to it on Twitter didn’t read it. The women in the article criticize the debate performance! They say his responses on abortion were weak and he missed an opportunity. I think the Twitter commentor should stop using other people as backups to his own opinions. It’s weak.
“Red state Dems are this or that” – based on four who were interviewed. What nonsense.
stacib
@Don: I have NEVER used the pie filter. Congrats, you’re my first.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I texted DougJ and passed along your suggestion. :-)
Baud
@WaterGirl:
Send a note to the Biden campaign too.
I would be so over the moon.
nevsky42
I don’t post that often so apologizes if this article has already been shared but please pass on to any friends on the ledge:
Historian who predicted last 9 out of 10 elections say Dems shouldn’t drop Biden
Leto
@satby: nah, you need to bathe in the Nazi, white power movement feeds. You know, typical Ohio diner shit. Otherwise you’re silo’ing your information!
/vomit
satby
@oldgold: when the felon does the same and we can compare side by side. Besides, presidents get physicals every year and often make general information public. And the felon didn’t.
Leto
@WaterGirl: @Baud: that would definitely take us to top 9,999 territory!
Another Scott
@oldgold: Why should he?
I guess you don’t remember the months and months and months and court cases and all the rest about Obama’s birth certificate.
There’s no winning in taking bad-faith arguments at face value. None.
Cheers,
Scott.
Fair Economist
@sdhays:
Construct 1.5 million houses, tax people hiding out in tax havens, tax private schoools, tax fossil fuels, allow onshore wind, ban gas cars in 2030, a National Care Service for in-home care, and clear out the backlog of uninvestigated rape cases.
satby
@Leto: thank you, that’s where I went wrong, obviously.
catclub
Yes. Their first choice is no change.
reactionaries want to go backwards.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Also too, kudos to Big Gretch.
And Professor Kelly for a nice smack down of notorious GOP hack Cupp.
Actually, Kelly’s somebody worth following on twitter, thanks for the link. And he puts things succinctly:
Kay
@satby:
He’s talking about tens of millions of people! “They don’t have the LUXURY of handwringing, unlike you elitists”
The four who were interviewed are handwringing in the article.
He doesn’t want Biden replaced and some Democrats talking about replacing Biden upsets him. He really doesn’t need to drag 50 million other people into it.
JWR
If Seth Meyers and or his team put together a blooper reel of Biden’s worst moments from the debate like they did with him tripping up the stairs to the plane I will f*cking scream! And I say this as one who really enjoys his show.
But that was what I thought of when Biden got tongue-twisted the other night, that he was stumbling up those verbal stairs due to 1) the 2 minute limit, 2) because he was attempting the impossible by answering the other guy’s firehose of lies and 3) a bad cold.
But watch it, Meyers! ;)
coozledad
Look like Putin is ginning up some protests at Ramstein AFB, and a terror alert has been issued. So far it looks like a few hundred useful idiots.
I hear the Kerch bridge is particularly flammable this time of year.
delphinium
@Kay: Just my opinion, but handwringing doesn’t win elections, they are won on the ground. Nothing wrong with being worried, all the more reason to get out there and do something about supporting Biden and down ballot Dems.
I’m far more normie than most here, and given how much a lot of the media has completely shit the bed over the last decade (and more), am not going to let myself be panicked by the latest embarrassing NYT opinion piece or misinformed, attention-seeking pundits. Just not going to add to the feeding frenzy.
I do agree that Biden should do some more interviews, and as someone suggested earlier, it would be beyond awesome if one of them was with NYT pitchbot.
Josie
@Kay: I’m in Texas. You can’t get much more red state than that. I am not wringing my hands; I am solidly behind Biden/Harris and hoping the Dems wise up and get to work supporting them.
I’m sending what little money I can spare to a number of places, including WaterGirl’s choices, and writing post cards for Post Cards to Swing States.
You seem to think you know how all red state Democrats are feeling, but there are many of us out there who know which party works for the people due to the travesties we see in our own states.
Mousebumples
@nevsky42: thanks for sharing that. I agree with his perspective, unsurprisingly, given my previous comments.
Suzanne
@Kay: It kind of blows my mind. IMO, Joe should have never agreed to debate Trump. It’s a terrible format for him. And the strategy of trying to memorize statistics doesn’t play to his strengths. And there is just no way to counter the Gish gallop of bullshit in the moment. No one has ever effectively done it, and this is Trump’s third campaign. The moderation and fact-checking that we want will not happen. So a better strategy is needed.
Like it or not, there is a lack of confidence in Biden’s acuity. It’s compounded by a lack of transparency. It’s not “hating old people” or racism or “bedwetting” to think so. Play to Joe’s strengths. Remind people what they like about him.
And quite frankly, this is a weird situation where discussing his record isn’t going to be as effective as we would like…..because the specific concern is that he might have lost the capacity to keep doing it. We shouldn’t be phrasing this like a vote is a reward to thank him for what he did. We should be approaching this as ensuring that people can have confidence moving forward.
Matt McIrvin
@Frankensteinbeck: Doesn’t sound like the same guy to me, but I’ve already pied him so I won’t be collecting any more data.
Mousebumples
@delphinium: +1
Come sit over here by me.
artem1s
“Their reactions to the debate couldn’t be more different than the ongoing panic from some top Dems + pundits — some actually thought Biden did well”
We’ve been trained so well to believe that only the talking heads are allowed to referee the world and interpret it correctly. Only hot takes on someone’s appearance and performance are allowed now. Style over substance has been the rule since Ronnie Raygun and his shoeblack hair lied his way into the WH. The MSM literally cannot tell the difference between shit and Shinola anymore.
The Xhit here is ‘mostly’ positive but with contemptuous undertone of ‘how dare you have an opinion based on what actually happened and was said instead of following the script we drew up weeks before the debate ever happened.” The MSM has been trying to get Dems to vote Joe off the Island since
201920081988. Not.gonna.happen.AWOL
@Don: Grandpa, go play with yourself. And if your kink is pants-shitting, who am I to judge?
stacib
@oldgold: Because it serves the same purpose as Obama producing a birth certificate. The other side still won’t be satisfied, and the candidate looks like they can be manipulated by “people are saying”.
satby
@JWR: I have a non- imaginary normie friend who watched the debate, and she said multiple times Biden was bad, it was sad, he was so bad. And she also noted that the convict lied and lied, and Biden had about 90 seconds to try to fact check plus state his own piece. She thought that was pretty appalling too. She’s still riding with Biden. Big union family, they all will.
Kay
@Josie:
I dont know how all red state Dems are feeling. Kudos to you for saying I think instead of “all my imaginary friends – the best people- also agree with me”. I too, as a red state Dem, do not think Biden should drop out. So that’s two.
Some red state Dems handwring, others do not. It has nothing to do with their (also imaginary) salt of the earthness. A I said, that article doesn’t even support the statement.
Leto
@Kay: just so we’re on the same page, which article are you referencing?
Soprano2
QFT My reaction was “which conservatives does he know?” None of the ones I’ve known want any kind of progress, they want everything to stay the same way it was when they were children, at least as far as social change is concerned. They resist it every step of the way!
Kay
@Suzanne:
I just re-read his responses on abortion – our single strongest political issue. Ooof. Just weak.
Have you read Alito’s dissent in the EMTLA case? He quite literally wants to kill women. Might be a good idea to bring that up. Trump put Biden on defense on abortion. I wanted to scream.
But you’re right -the way forward is through with A LOT of non scripted appearances with normal people. I read that they are considering firing some of the comms team which they absolutely should do.
Cacti
@nevsky42: I keep seeing comments along these lines, but nobody who previously had a bad debate was 81 years old and sounded like they had just wandered off from the Happy Acres Assisted Living Facility.
Saying it was just a matter of Biden having a bad debate is facile. It’s the reasons why he had a bad debate that are causing heartburn.
Soprano2
Except for in 2020. Oh, and in 2022 his candidates mostly went down in flames. And he was convicted of 34 felonies, and is still facing charges in three other cases. He was found responsible for sexual assault and ordered to pay millions of dollars in damages. His bogus university and charity were shut down. No, he does not always win and he is not some kind of super villian who can never be vanquished.
Trivia Man
Ill repeat my comment from the dead thread about guardrails we can install for future protection. We can’t easily change requirements fir presidential eligibility, but we have other options.
”When a candidate for president or vice-president becomes eligible to appear on any state ballot, their federal tax returns for the previous 10 years shall be made publicly available.”
TBone
@nevsky42: the full Monty
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/06/30/lichtman-dems-replace-biden/74260967007/
eclare
@satby:
Sec. Pete is such a good communicator.
SFAW
@nevsky42:
I have never pied anyone, so you’ll be my first.
Just kidding, thanks very much for posting/linking that!
Although I gotta say: Professor Lichtman doesn’t look old enough to have been in the predictions biz for 50 years.
Soprano2
@Baud: I almost spit my coffee all over my monitor when I read this post. LOL
TBone
Focus on the locus
https://jesspiper.substack.com/p/daddy-died-a-maga
Another Scott
@Suzanne:
He can and will talk about his record – very effectively, IMHO. He doesn’t have to be Sec. Pete, and shouldn’t. Not talking about his record would be incredibly stupid and would be playing the game on their Calvinball rules. The GQP can’t attack him on the economy, or unemployment ,or active foreign wars, or domestic unrest, or cutting the military, or the price of gas, or lack of baby formula, or increasing taxes on the middle class, or vaccine mandates or, well any of the normal stuff of politics. So they attack him on “gee, don’t you think he’s ooollllldddd???”
Of course Biden is going to continue to talk about his record, his plans, and the dangers that TCFFG (and his minions) is to all of us. As he did on the 29th in New York.
Him mixing up thousands and millions or millions and billions, or Italy and France, and similar Bidenisms, isn’t going to get in the way of him making his case very persuasively.
My $0.02.
Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
coozledad
I see the horseshoe left is up to its usual “black women don’t know what they’re talking about” bullshit. Same old racist rash.
eclare
@Kay:
Town halls are a great format for him.
Kay
@Leto:
AL linked to it. It’s about pro choice activists in NC and their response to the debate. The four activists don’t want to replace Biden which is being characterized as “the pragmatic voice of red state voters” – another bullshit narrative.
It’s a fine article! I think it’s great they’re finally talking to Democrats. But using it to push a narrative that only indulgent blue state Dems are unhappy or concerned is nonsense, IMO. They’ve been concerned about the polling for a year. I hear it at least once a week. Why? Because the polling is bad. They want him UP not DOWN, against Trump. It’s pretty simple. I could draw arrows to illustrate what they want.
eclare
@SFAW:
In my time zone it’s too early for Balloon Juice After Dark!
Tony Jay
@sdhays:
They’re mostly really pushing the Not Dirty Lefties/Your Grandmother’s Tories line as hard as they can right now, triangulating somewhere between Cameron’s 2010 Tories and wherever the Reform/White Free State/Daily Mail end of the Left/Right axis happens to be today.
Personally, I think the calculation is that Not Sunak/The Tories is going to bag them a big win whatever else happens, but the hardliners of the resurgent newnewlabourinc right-wing want to prove that they can win a massive victory without Labour’s traditional urban/left vote and then use that as a mandate to completely replace the shattered Tory Party as the party of the centre-right.
But that’s a rant for another day.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
Trump’s statements, on the other hand, were very strong and I think will have a strong effect on the election.
Suzanne
@Kay: What irritates me are the Dems who are acting like this is completely NBD and throwing shade or outright contempt toward the people who are concerned about this. We have discussed here on this very blog about margins…. peeling off a few Republicans here and there, or getting them to be so disgusted by Trump that they at the very least stay home on Election Day. Like it or not, the perceptions of the Ariana Grande voters really matter. The margins matter.
I don’t care if Biden fires his comms team or not. I don’t know how much is their fault vs. his fault. But the strategy so far is not great. Doubling down on it is ludicrous.
3Sice
Big media has left for the Cape and the interns have a holiday travel revenue cycle to run.
eclare
@Baud:
Yep. It’s like when Ole Miss plays Memphis in football. If they win, they’re supposed to. If they lose, it’s a disaster that overshadows the season. There is no upside.
SFAW
@Kay:
I thought I saw that the debate prep team had worked with him for months, and then it all went to shit on Thursday night. My view, based on zero facts of course, is that the debate prep team should be fired. If their idea for good prep was to inundate Biden with facts and counter-arguments, then they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to debate TCFFG.
Yes, President Biden needs to talk past TCFFG to some extent, but he still needs to reduce his responses to sound-bite-worthy chunks of useful information. And, of course, point out that Shitgibbon is a liar at every opportunity.
Kay
@eclare:
It would be good. The questions are always dumb but this is not about the questions – it’s about appearing competent and in control and at ease.
One person who matters in this who hasn’t been discussed is Kamala Harris. She’s on the Biden ticket. Until I read she’s pushing him off I’m sticking with Biden. It’s actually her decision.
We do need to make changes though. Fire Anita Dunn. She’s a fucking lobbyist. She shouldn’t be running Dem communications anyway.
satby
@Kay: ok, I have completely lost track of whoever tf you’re talking about. But if it’s the tweet in the OP retweeting Grace Panetta, she IS the author of the linked article and this is her lead take away before she goes into specifics. So, did you read it?
SFAW
@Suzanne:
Co-sign (my comment about firing the prep team notwithstanding).
TBone
A tribute to Lena Horne, icon, activist, and inspiration for all of us:
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/06/lena-horne
delphinium
@Suzanne: Yeah, I think debates can be somewhat useful during primary elections so those that watch can get some idea of the different candidates. But both Biden and Trump already have a record of how they ran the country and where they stand on the issues so debates are unnecessary at this point.
zhena gogolia
@Frankensteinbeck: Democrats kill live babies! That was strong.
Cacti
This.
Biden’s age is a legitimate concern whether the yellow dog Dems want it to be or not. If it was just a one off night, he needs to be out in public showing that he isn’t experiencing cognitive decline. If he IS experiencing cognitive decline, then Harris needs to take over as the ticket topper and a new VP candidate found.
TBone
Sharing is caring!
The stakes:
https://crooksandliars.com/2024/06/project-2025-resources
Soprano2
@SiubhanDuinne: OMG, that has so many bad echoes of how they characterized Hillary winning all those primaries as a “coronation”, as if no one else could have run against her. They are making themselves ridiculous, and it couldn’t be more evident that they have a MAJOR grudge against Biden.
Suzanne
@Another Scott: He can talk about his record, sure. But he needs to reassure people that another four years will bring similar progress.
Look, it is perfectly reasonable — based on the evidence that exists — to think that Biden did a good job this term, met the moment….. and now can’t do it anymore. So we have to counteract that concern.
We are talking about the “noun, verb, and 9/11” guy. The “no malarkey” guy. He’s funny and sharp, and was able to stick that shiv almost as well as Trump. It’s appealing. Show that off. It reassures people that he’s sound. It demonstrates understanding. That the next four years will be a continuation of the last.
Quiltingfool
@Frankensteinbeck: I want to thank you for your patience! I know I wouldn’t have had the strength, I was extremely pissed off that folks were ready to jettison Biden just because he didn’t do the “Magic Joe Biden Show” and chose to completely ignore Trump.
I think Trump’s Nazi performance gets ignored because HE DOES IT ALL THE TIME. Here, we don’t exactly ignore it, we just shrug it off. We’ve seen it so much that it’s something we’ve become accustomed to, like that hideous wallpaper you’ve learned to block out.
You rightfully pointed out, over and over (for the hysterical ones in the back, who were so busy screaming) that NORMAL PEOPLE who don’t watch Trump stuff constantly, were appalled!
Again, thank you!
Leto
@Kay: I guess we took away different things in the article.
satby
@eclare: he is. And I still retain some bitterness about the time when I was talking with his campaign chief of staff early in the 2016 cycle about doing an AMA here, and the outpouring of “Mayo Pete, McKinsey Pete, don’t trust him, arrogant upstart” crap on this blog scotched the whole thing, because of course they checked what blog I was advocating for.
Kay
@satby:
But the Twitter commentor then goes into his bullshit narrative about how “red state Dems” don’t handwring, because he’s pushing a narrative. Again – I have no problem with him -alone- not wanting Biden to step down – I reject him creating narratives about good and bad Democrats to put himself on the “good Dem” side. It’s a bullshit, weak move.
Biden’s polling is probably going to dip. I’ve already priced that in and still think Biden should stay in but I would (also) warn against relying on polling for these “good Dem/bad Dem” narratives – they’ll be discredited in a week.
I think he can survive a dip but he can’t survive a collapse. Congressional candidates will demand to cut him loose. They’re already polling about 5- 6 ahead of him and have been for months. “Democrats”are polling quite well, “Joe Biden” is not.
But I’m with him. I’ll accept whatever Party leaders and electeds decide.
Frankensteinbeck
@zhena gogolia:
I think it’s ‘Everybody wanted to send it back to the states’ that will get him. He went on about it, so the exact sentence of him bragging about overturning Roe that will be picked I dunno. But considering post-Dobbs election results, I think that will be his ultimate shit-the-bed moment in this election that will drown Biden’s bad performance into insignificance.
Soprano2
@Frankensteinbeck: I appreciate your efforts. If people would think about it for a little bit they would realize replacing Biden would be stupid and is nearly impossible, so we should quit talking about it and talk about things that are productive. The Supreme Court will release their decisions today and knock all these silly stories out of the headlines, then in a few days TCFG will be sentenced and that will knock them back even further. I hope the NY Times gets a bunch of letters asking why they didn’t call for the man with 34 felony convictions to step aside for a better candidate.
Bupalos
@Don: The fact that American democracy is in a state of pretty severe illness is what is “to blame” for the rather ridiculous particular electoral situation we find ourselves in. We all share responsibility for that. And we all share responsibility for digging ourselves out.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Leto: Also watching the Tour. Did you see the segment today on the Fausto Coppi Museum? Crazy that Coppi made a set of rollers for his bike.
Belafon
@Cacti: You mean like the day after and the day after that?
Another Scott
@Suzanne: I sometimes wonder if I listened to a different debate than others.
Biden gets tongue-tied sometimes. He’s always been that way.
There’s nothing wrong with him that would interfere with him continuing to be a great president.
Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne:
Why? The alternative to him is Trump. Period.
Soprano2
@moonbat: I think it’s mostly the terror of the thought of TCFG winning that’s driving this. I get it, I feel the terror too, but we need to go forward doing everything we can to help Biden and other Democrats get elected, because right now that’s the only choice we’ve got. Action is a good antidote for the paralysis brought about by fear.
satby
no, that’s not, based on the immediately next several hours of Biden’s appearances, much of which were unscripted.
Eyeroller
@JWR: This finally caused me to overcome my inertia and cancel my subscription to the FTFNYT. The agent (who sounded like he was in India) kept pushing for a specific reason after I said “editorial slant,” so I cited this headline as the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Krugman is basically a Berniebro.
Kay
@Suzanne:
Democratic senate candidates are doing quite well. That tells us that Biden’s poor polling is not “the state of the country” or even “Biden policy” – it’s something personal to Biden. He’s the issue. So he needs to fix it. The senate candidates wouldn’t be running ahead of the top of the ticket if it were “inflation” or “covid malaise” or whatever.
E.
@Kay: Kay, I am in a red state too, even redder than yours! I think that article pretty much failed to deliver any actual information about the larger voter mood, but then, nobody seems to have a handle on that anyway. I will say that I have been spending a lot of time around red state Dems and the degree to which they are letting this debate performance matter to their actions is practically zero. I almost never even hear about it from them, and when it is mentioned the subject gets changed. Yet I go on line and my on-line communities are absolutely saturated with it. Real life is better.
Soprano2
@Suzanne: I don’t disagree with this, but he has given quite a few interviews like that already and the press just dismisses them as “friendly venues” or “not really relevant”. There’s already plenty of evidence out there of the kind of guy he is, I guess people need even more now.
Belafon
@Kay:
As another red state Dem, I would advise you to consider two things:
1. The polling since Dobbs has underreported Dems compared to actual elections by 5-8%.
2. The NYT actually acknowledged that polls are no longer getting the samples they used to because a lot of people don’t answer their phone.
Yes, you can worry about Biden’s age. But you had better not do one thing different about getting Democrats out to vote or supporting candidates for office or resisting calls for Biden to resign or calling out Trump at every opportunity or the election will be on you.
The Thin Black Duke
Sorry, but anyone who is going to let a bad twenty minutes dictate how they’re going to vote is an asshole, and if that hurts some people’s feelings, too damned bad. Jesus. Black people would still be in chains if we realized how impossible being a free person in White America is. Is it easy? No. Progress is always ten steps forward, nine steps back. It never was easy and it’s never going to be.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@satby:
Exactly. People still calling for him to do exactly what he’s been doing post-debate and not being satisfied is telling.
satby
@Kay: an opinion is not a narrative. I read that as an opinion, just like I read what you say as your opinion. And what I say is mine. None of us is running polling firms, we’re sharing opinions based on our own experiences. I don’t see what that person says as any less well grounded than what you say.
Suzanne
@Another Scott: Yeah, maybe you watched something different than I did. (Though I watched the next day, after SuzMom — who loves Joe — called it “a bloodbath”.) He was staring off into space. He was trailing off. He said “we have to beat Medicare”. Stop underestimating how bad it was. It was damaging.
Again…. Margins matter. You can’t be letting people percolate with that as the most recent image in their heads. Lots of Ariana Grande voters want to vote for someone and then check out mentally for four years. We need to give them the confidence that they can do that.
Kay
@Cacti:
Seems important that Harris make this decision. I haven’t seen anything at all that she’s in for this switcheroo idea and it is up to her.
NotMax
@SFAW
Fluffernutter not just a sammich anymore.
//
gene108
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Fuck off!
Seriously, I’m in the first cohort of people you think lack critical thinking skills.
I grew up listening to that bullshit about my generation somehow being inferior to prior generations, my education wasn’t as rigorous as past generations, and my morals not as righteous as other generations.
None of it was or is true. Going by what I’ve seen of K-12 education, from high school until now, education has become harder and a lot more competitive compared to when I was in school.
Belafon
@Suzanne:
“Why won’t Biden make me fall in love with him again?”
He can’t promise that, not with Republican waging war and people like Durbin not seeing it.
I see too many people here doing exactly what the press is doing: Only Democrats have agency, and it’s on them to make things right. Republicans are just there.
Leto
@satby: listen, Suzanne wants specific unscripted sit down interviews with… someone/somebody. Just because he’s been doing that for for at least the previous two years, apparently those don’t mean shit. Just because he immediately followed the debate with TWO of those unscripted moments in front of large crowds, doesn’t mean anything. At this point, I think he needs to follow Kay’s advice and go sit in rural Ohio diners, and
beg the dumbfuck voters therelisten to those wide sages of Americana on how to steer his re-election campaign to victory.@Cheryl from Maryland: I did! That was cool; that ancient training device looked identical to what they use today. Did you see those horrifying mannequins at that other museum they showed? Oof!
caphilldcne
@Baud: thanks. I’ll use the money I saved to support more liberal news sources and of course I’m all in on BJs organizing projects.
Suzanne
@Soprano2:
Yes. Yes. People need a lot of evidence. They need reassurance. If this was one bad night, prove it. Blitz us with proof of that.
His character isn’t in question. His capacity is in question. Answer the question.
moonbat
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: THIS!
They just keep telling him to jump through hoops he’s already cleared.
Frankensteinbeck
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
I remember people here declaring that Obama needed to go on a tour explaining the benefits of the ACA – while Obama was on a tour explaining the benefits of the ACA. Democrats don’t get credit for anything they do. It’s a political rule that drives me nuts.
Belafon
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: They were too busy navel gazing to see all of that.
Belafon
@Suzanne: Did you see any of the stuff he did post-debate?
Suzanne
@Leto: There are a shit-ton of leaks coming out right now about how Biden’s inner circle has apparently tried to insulate him, how he’s done fewer press conferences than any other president in recent history, etc. That shit is damaging.
Go on Pod Save America. Sit with E. J. Dionne or Jen Rubin or whomever. Go on Colbert. If this is the most important election ever…. act like it. Make the case.
E.
On cnn.com right now: “Biden Wages Desperate Bid to Save his Campaign.” And then follows an article that talks about lots of things that people other than Biden are doing and saying.
Mousebumples
@The Thin Black Duke: +1
Thank you for saying this.
Kay
There’s a transcript of the debate. This is the abortion section – our single strongest issue that every Dem congressional candidate has a killer set of responses on:
It was bad. Compare this response to any Dem senate candidate now running. How in the world did they not prepare him to answer a question on abortion coherently?
Josie
The truth is that he has been giving sit down interviews and he has been doing unscripted rallies and is still doing them. Further truth is that those things are not adequately covered in television and print media. Until the coverage changes, I don’t see how things improve. It has been a problem for Democrats that won’t go away. I don’t know the answer. If anyone does, I’d like to hear it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Suzanne:
And they’re all, every single one, the kind of ‘a Democratic staffer’ source that journalists traditionally use to cover some buddy of theirs nowhere near the action who can always be relied on to tell them what they want to hear.
Belafon
@Suzanne: I saw one where someone said CNN is reporting that advisors are concerned that Biden is sundowning, but there was no article.
Bupalos
@Kay: I feel like a lot of the folks trying to just whistle past the debate are missing at least half the point. It’s all “anyone can have a bad day.”
That was the baseball equivalent of standing out there and watching 3 batting practice pitches split the heart of the plate without moving the bat off your shoulder. Or twirling it like an fancy umbrella. Then dropping the bat and heading to the wrong dugout. No major leaguer ever has that happen. If it does, you don’t say “hey, even Babe Ruth strikes out sometimes.” There’s striking out, and then there’s striking out in that particular way. They aren’t the same thing.
Leto
@Kay: seems to me you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the 25th.
So it’s her AND A MAJORITY of others. She has convince a majority of the rest of the Cabinet/executive departments/others that he’s unfit. Then he can just write back, nope. And then a second round needs to happen before it can take effect. The absolute calamitous shit show that would set off as it would be seen usurping the voters will… but no, it’s not just her.
Suzanne
@Belafon: Yeah, I did. He stood up at a rally and read a speech. He went to a Waffle House. Great. Fine. I don’t think any of that is sufficient to counteract the really terrible performance on Thursday night. It will take much more.
The attitude that it’s ludicrous to think he’s in trouble is a lot of cope. Evidence is telling us that we have a problem. We’re going to stick with Joe, we have to address this problem and not pretend we did it already.
Soprano2
I agree with this criticism. He needs to work with his speechwriters or prep people or SOMEBODY about his responses to questions on abortion, because it’s obvious to anyone that the subject makes him uncomfortable. I think he should emphasize that the decision should not be made by the state or state government or politicians who don’t know anything about medicine or pregnancy or pregnancy complications. If he’s more comfortable talking about how this messes up all reproductive care for women then go there and talk about it that way. It’s a good issue for Dems where most people agree with us, so he needs to figure out how to talk about it more effectively.
Frankensteinbeck
@Bupalos:
Then thank God Trump’s performance was the baseball equivalent of throwing the ball behind him, stomping on his pitcher’s mitt, and spending the whole game screaming threats at the umpire.
EDIT – And that really is my point. Both watching the debate and from the results we’ve seen after, Biden didn’t lose any voters because as bad a performance as he put on, Trump was worse.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@gene108:
Let me clarify although I’m not sure at this point it’ll help (assuming I’m not pied already).
The GOP War on Public Education has been a real thing. That’s not to say that kids don’t still end up with a great education, obtain critical thinking skills, etc. They do.
My wife volunteers tutoring math and chemistry at East HS here in Denver. It’s as representative as any big HS in the city.
She’ll be the first to tell you how that War on Education has impacted the general level of knowledge and skillset of the students she sees. Sure, she sees kids that are ready but she also bemoans how so many are far, far under-schooled when compared to her experiences from back in the day.
And the lack of basic civics knowledge that gets remarked upon here, that wasn’t a thing 40 years ago.
Hell, I’m not the only one saying this. I’m surrounded by neighbors who are teachers or paras in the public school system here and they’ll be the first to burn your ear about the GOP and their longterm efforts to dismantle public education.
Eyeroller
I really wish we had a commenter here with actual expertise in speech therapy. People keep saying “he had a cold” and that was apparently true, but he also has a fluency disorder and very few people are accounting for that. He covers it up so well that we forget, I suppose. Stuttering is most common but another one called “cluttering” is less common but often co-exists with stuttering. The signs of “cluttering” are talking too fast, merging some words, and truncating others. Fluency disorders aren’t some simple problem with moving one’s mouth. It’s a cognitive issue where the brain is failing to properly communicate, possibly with itself (i.e. there may be something like crosstalk) and definitely with the speech organs. Being under stress–like not feeling well while trying to remember a bunch of numbers–is going to increase the difficulty in managing it.
And I’ve been reminded by other commenters that the freakout over Obama’s bad first debate against Romney was almost as over the top and there were calls for Obama to step aside. Never change, Democrats, never change .
satby
@Suzanne: I think you are especially primed to see it as damaging because you have previously, and repeatedly, displayed quite a bit of ageist sentiment. A lot of people aren’t looking through that particular filter. And, as others have pointed out, Biden is already and has been all along doing what you say he should. Yet, you keep glossing over that. Plus the dismissive “sure, he can talk about his record, but he needs to reassure people that another four years will bring similar progress” is impossible. He can’t predict the future, he can only promise to continue to try to implement more progress, not guarantee it.
Suzanne
@Frankensteinbeck:
It doesn’t matter. You’re right, but it doesn’t matter. The perception is there in the actual media that people read and watch and it is metastasizing. It is possibly unfair, but that is the situation. You can call that “only Democrats have agency” but shit isn’t fair. Perceptions matter.
caphilldcne
@Kay: it’s up to Biden first and foremost. Harris isn’t going to just be able to push him out of the way.
UncleEbeneezer
@Another Scott: The GOP would demand that Biden has to get evaluated by Ronny Jackson or it doesn’t count!
Kay
This response was acceptable, except for defending on “late term abortion” – Democratic candidates don’t fall into that trap anymore – it’s the new “babykiller!” on the Right. No reason to defend on it – no one thinks you kill babies after they are born.
But the most charitable evaluation of Biden’s performance was it veered between “awful” and “just over the line of acceptable”.
Leto
@Suzanne: he’s making the case in other media outlets. Who’s it damaging to? The media outlets who, since day 1, have pushed the “he’s too old” story? How about you make the case for why he should voluntarily subject himself to networks who won’t cover him in a positive light. You might as well make the case for why he needs to be on Fox or OANN 24/7.
Anyways, want to personably thank both chicken-Kay and chicken-Suzanne for derailing/doomering yet another fucking thread. See you all in 15 for the monstrous SCOTUS decisions.
Soprano2
@Frankensteinbeck: I certainly think that’s true. Repeating multiple times that “everyone wanted Roe overturned” should hurt him quite a bit.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: Turnout matters. Fighting from a position of strength matters. Dwelling on pundits’ bad-faith arguments about impossible futures doesn’t matter and is counter-productive.
Biden has addressed the debate criticism.
Cheers,
Scott.
Belafon
@Bupalos: So you didn’t make it all the way through the debate?
Suzanne
@satby:
And lots of people are (link within link).
Again, this isn’t about my personal vote. I am Team Blue No Matter Who.
NotMax
@Frankensteinbeck
“This whole game is rigged! The umpire’s second cousin twice removed’s husband bought a Dark Brandon coffee mug!”
Soprano2
QFT. They prepped him as if this was going to be a normal debate, but they should have known that TCFG doesn’t do “normal”. They have lots of tape of him to watch to see how he operates. Biden should have spoken in generalities. I’ll also say that people who think Biden had a “blank stare” at TCFG are wrong – what I got was he was incredulous at what he was hearing, stunned almost sometimes.
Kay
@caphilldcne:
Other Dems can push him out of the way though. They will if the polling collapses and it looks like it will endanger Senate (and less so) House seats. Then they’re going to traige, and they should.
I’m good with whatever they decide. They know the senate races are going well -better than the Biden race- and they’re gonna want to hold that advantage.
gvg
@Kay: There are more attacks on Biden than anyone else, unfair attacks, widespread attacks, specific targeted to studied audience attacks. He is more important to enemies of America to take down, and stands in the way of Republicans. Trump sees him as the big target standing in his way. Trump felons that hope for pardons or more opportunities to loot see Biden as an obstacle. Some of them are actually intelligent about attacks too. There is a LOT of propaganda when you come down to it going out to a lot of hate filled morons. Also a lot of people just follow the crowd of wherever they happen to be.
For some reason, this time, the attacks haven’t been diluted between any other democrats except Kamela. Usually, there are some other democrats that get the constant barrage. Kamela is basically a part of Joe’s polling. I am talking about since Clinton’s time. Thats when I started paying attention to politics really.
I don’t think Biden can fix it because it isn’t him. Although I would like more laws and public exposure of money sources on all the foundations and pacs that act in politics. We have too much dark money. We don’t know whats going on and that is bad.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Plenty of angst among Florida Dems in my circle. I’m angsty myself but continue to believe Biden is our best option.
Belafon
I thought this was an interesting opinion, that Democrats also succumb to the base desire to destroy weakness that we will attack our own.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/6/30/2249887/-We-Must-Really-Must-Overcome-The-Compulsion-To-Destroy-Our-Own?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web
Suzanne
@Leto:
Jesus. He has a problem with young voters, who were an essential part of his winning coalition last time. He’s apparently got a huge problem on TikTok, which, you know, lots of people look at. More than they watch clips of rallies on CNN. And, as Kay notes, he’s running behind other Dems. Why is that? Those are problems.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Leto:
LOL.
👍
andy
a bad debate shouldn’t be able to undo three and a half years of actual progress. screaming for a replacement is some bigtime Karen energy. let’s say you replace him- then what? what’s the new guy gonna run on- “i was in the same room when the guy we just shitcanned made all this good stuff happen?
okay, we’re having this discussion over a poor debate performance- when are the republicans going to have a discussion about the mountain of shit the felon-in-chief left behind?
stacib
@The Thin Black Duke: This can’t be repeated enough. OMG, folks, our “folks” are driving me insane right now. One bad night, and it’s all screw the last 3-1/2 years, prove to me again and again that you’re okay. And, for all the “former” Republicans who are “advising” the Democrats, they can all just shut the entire fuck up considering how they propped up Ron Reagan.
Jackie
@nevsky42: I read that yesterday, and took note that the one prediction he got wrong was Bush/Gore. And, that he hasn’t made a prediction for ‘24 yet.
Kay
@Bupalos:
Yup. And it’s not “fair”. It isn’t. “It’s just one mistake!” But some mistakes matter more than others. One mistake can absolutely be a firing issue. It depends wholly on the circumstances.
People should read the transcript. Relying on filtered memory always misleads. Maybe they’ll read the transcript and think it was fine. But they’ll know what was actually said.
UncleEbeneezer
@The Thin Black Duke: Thread won!
Matt McIrvin
@Belafon: We’re the party of technocrats and optimizers; everyone’s got an opinion about how to fix everything and we have a tendency to imagine them operating in a vacuum. Republicans have an instinct for bullheaded loyalty that can serve them better in an election campaign. They don’t tear down their guy even when he’s manifestly horrifying.
caphilldcne
@Kay: I guess if the party’s 10 top funders get together with Harris, Schumer and Jeffries (and maybe his closest Senate friends like Coons) and Jill agrees, then that could happen. I largely suspect that’s not very likely. If I’m two weeks his polling support drops 10 points or something then maybe I’ll reevaluate
zhena gogolia
@andy: Never. The answer is never.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
Me too. But I’ll change my mind if his polling collapses and so will elected Democrats, I reckon. I’m not giving Trump a Congress. That’s suicide.
delphinium
@Kay: And what’s his you know, actual stance on abortion? What have him and Kamala been saying to audiences outside of the debate? Who was responsible for overturning Roe? People who actually care about abortion know the answer to this. If other people choose not to pay attention to what Trump and the Supreme Court have done regarding Roe and the very real danger to women, that isn’t on Biden’s debate answer.
We have a long slog ahead until the election, continually harping on the past debate performance doesn’t get us voters. We are all doing our part here to get Biden re-elected so let’s keep going forward with that instead.
Leto
@Suzanne: Jesus, I don’t know why he has a problem on TikTok; do you?
The Increasing Trumpification of TikTok
An internal analysis found nearly twice as many pro-Trump posts as pro-Biden ones on TikTok since November, a sign of the right’s use of a liberal-friendly platform.
It’s a goddamned mystery, ain’t it? It’s not like the fucking white power movement has been, for the past three years, increasingly active on platforms that are super happy to host them. Goddamned mystery.
Leto
@The Thin Black Duke: meant to +1 this already.
gvg
@Suzanne: That was because the press had proven itself to have reverted to the worst yellow dog journalism slanted of the past. They were terrible to Obama after he was elected, and treated Trump as an entertainer and moneymaker even while he made direct threats to them specifically. Their own industries financial crisis has made them supremely unreliable and silly too. They just can’t be used to project any truthful good impression. I don’t know what the answer is.
I start with thinking of public funding, and immediately realize that would be subject to political pressure. Even if Biden wouldn’t do that, A Trump type would and a republican biased voter would assume Biden would.
They can’t do lots of interviews like they could in the past. No politician can on either side. Even a respectable republican would have the same reasons to avoid them. When they got bored, they would turn on him. When they needed ratings, they would make shit up.
Suzanne
@Kay: I used to work in marketing (mostly products/services, but we also did some political direct mail). The statistics about how people make decisions about purchases or how to vote on an issue are really interesting. (Also terrifying.) I remember one about how people need to hear a company’s name something like fifteen times before they even remember it. See a logo like 30 times before they recognize it. Every step in a decision-making process is similar….. it takes repeated, frequent exposure to build identity and confidence.
UncleEbeneezer
@stacib: Also, these pants-wetters can’t seem to acknowledge the fact that commenters like The Thin Black Duke, who usually don’t go around calling people assholes are doing so now, maybe that’s a sign that it’s time to dial this bullshit panicking back. But no, all we are getting is endless “yeah but…” doubling-down. It’s really freakin’ sad and frustrating as hell. My pie list is going to be overflowing if this keeps up. It’s a stupid argument designed to split our coalition, at the worst possible time. It’s Emails, all over again and some people never fucking learn.
Suzanne
@Leto: Again, it doesn’t matter why TikTok is a cesspool of shit. But it matters that it is a cesspool of shit, because lots of people whose votes we need are swimming in that cesspool of shit.
delphinium
@Eyeroller:
Indeed, for some folks “There’s always a siren, singing you to shipwreck”.
Bupalos
@Frankensteinbeck: I don’t think that’s right. The analogy also breaks down because Trump and Biden in some sense aren’t playing the same game. Trump is out to break our politics and democracy, Biden is there to keep it together. What Trump is doing with his stream of lies is simply devalue the exercise, turn a game of rules into a spectacle of entertainment. He isn’t being judged on baseball.
But whatever they are trying to do, Biden ended up with fat pitches teed up for him in the game he is playing and has to play. They weren’t behind him, they weren’t high or low, they were right there. And if you want people to watch you play baseball as opposed to Trump turning it into pro wrestling, you have to be able to look like you’re playing baseball.
I do appreciate everyone who is arguing that this is not insurmountable and I’m not just screeching past it. Odds are we’ve got what we’ve got here, and we still need to make whatever chance we can out of it.
I’ll admit too that part of me is simply angry at Biden, not for coming up against his limitations, but for the choice he made in ’22 or early ’23 that looked past the obvious risks here. These risks were overwhelming. Zoomed out and viewed from outside, it was a crazy and I think egotistical choice to try and be the first 80+ to be elected president. Trump is a terrible candidate. far worse than 2020. Biden is not and never was the only one who could beat him, he’s not our best player, and I feel like he put himself above the team
And at some point I’m going to get past these feels and figure out how to be more productive. But I am a little tied up in the disappointment right now and don’t feel like trusting Biden to stabilize this.
206inKY
@Suzanne: This is the obvious solution if he’s actually doing fine in private. There’s no way to fight what people saw in the debate without evidence to the contrary that he can handle unscripted conversations, process information from briefings, and make complex decisions.
The tight security blanket is either suffocating him or hiding the truth. I suspect the latter. People saw Biden’s core liability on full display. His aging has taken a significant turn the past year. After Trump fell asleep in court, I was convinced it was the opposite and Trump would be the one to surprise people with signs of aging. It’s quite obvious now that Hur’s team wasn’t lying and Dean Phillips was right all along.
Latest CBS poll shows 72% of voters think Biden is not mentally fit to serve as president. We need to choose between being a death cult or shifting all energy toward Kamala.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgln3jx47go
Kay
One thing that is important is if Democrats try to take Biden off the ballot and go with Harris (the only plausible scenario) Republicans will sue under state ballot laws/rules. So that’s another reason not to do it. That would be a huge problem. We could essentially default. You’d need an expert in each states elections laws and even then one rogue Trumpist judge could kill us.
So this is still impossible. It’s Biden for the duration.
Eyeroller
@Matt McIrvin: Yeah, I read that Kos diary. I check a lot of the boxes of the author. I’m a white woman of nearly that age with a PhD. I would never self-diagnose as ASD but I pretty definitely have some different thinking patterns from what seems to be “neurotypical.” But I hate evo-psych just-so stories, which is what a lot of it was. I think it’s much simpler than all that. Liberals are more open to change and think others should be as well (this is a personality trait known to correlate with liberalism). My observation is that liberals also believe that people, including (perhaps especially so) themselves, are more rational than we are. So our guy is old and shows it and not even necessarily in any abnormal way, let’s dump him for Johnny Unbeatable who is surely out there.
That’s the ones who are arguing in good faith. Then there are all these “operatives” and “consultants” and “sources” like Carville who seem to have always had it in for Biden. I remember from well before the debate some anonymously-sourced Biden hit job in Politico and my guess was that Carville or somebody like him was the source. I don’t know what their issue is.
Kay
@206inKY:
I don’t think it can be done. So buckle up for a bumpy ride! :)
coozledad
I guess we have to go through another Party Unity My Ass moment. Once again, a Repug op.
Bupalos
@Kay: Can you elaborate on that? We haven’t actually nominated Biden yet.
Omnes Omnibus
@UncleEbeneezer: It’s why I end up just walking away a lot these days.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Would that issue be negated if Biden resigned the presidency so Harris could run as the incumbent? (Not gonna happen — just curious about how that would work.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Bupalos:
State primary votes.
eclare
@satby:
Understandable. It was infuriating. Plus I’m biased in that I worked for Arthur Andersen. You learn a lot. And I was a Democrat then, but working there pushed me much further left!
UncleEbeneezer
The Thin Black Duke
@Omnes Omnibus: Yep. And I’m outta here. It’s just recycling the same ridiculous arguments (yeah, asking Biden to step down is ridiculous) over and over again. Joe and his team had a plan. He got punched in the mouth, but it wasn’t a knockout. There’s still a couple of rounds left to go.
Bupalos
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t think those are binding on the delegates, are they? AFAIK the party nominating procedures are really entirely up to the party.
tam1MI
Those assholes haven’t even explained how they will win over the votes of the over 90% of primary voters who chose Joe Biden. They just figure that we will all just quietly bow down to them and do whatever they say and vote for whoever they decide to inflict on us despite the fact that whoever that is will have garnered not even one actual vote. Fuck that shit sideways.
The Horseshoe Left is showing us who they are. They hate democracy as much if not more than the Republicans.
UncleEbeneezer
@Omnes Omnibus: Me too.
Suzanne
@Bupalos: There’s an interesting dynamic at play here, might be unique or at least rare. If Biden wins, a fair share of that vote will be from people who either don’t especially like him or don’t have confidence in him, but who just abhor Trump and want to do everything they can to stop him. That’s fine, a vote is a vote. But the flip side of that is that those people would likely turn out to vote for any Democrat. So, the dynamic here would suggest that it is wiser to play up the nature of the Democratic team rather than the specific individual.
But every national election is won and lost on the margins now, and that sucks. That magnifies the importance of, quite frankly, the least reliable and least informed voters in the coalition.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bupalos: It’s undemocratic AF. If that matters to you. It does to me.
stacib
@Bupalos: I voted for delegates who have committed to supporting Biden. If my vote is negated because some folks have decided, after the fact and one bad debate performance, that they know better, than where does that leave me? Do y’all (Suzanne and Kay) think those of us who still strongly support Biden will just fall into line, you guys are in for a huge surprise. I get being worried about the democracy, but what you two are proposing will surely ensure a trump presidency.
Matt McIrvin
@Eyeroller: Weirdly I am getting a lot of Democratic Party funding pitches that center around Carville, and I keep wondering why they think I would find that guy appealing. I guess their algorithm has me pegged as an ancient crotchety guy who remembers the Clinton administration, but stuff has happened since then.
Kay
@Bupalos:
Well, you know the candidate has to qualify for each states ballot. There are rules and they vary by state.
There would be two scenarios and two sets of rules – Biden withdrawing or a brokered convention. The brokered convention would be the better bet. Heritage would sue under the Biden withdrawing scenario.
rikyrah
What I love about the Waffle House video.
A lot of folks posting on it, missed that part.
2, The President coming in and doing the dap.
It was so natural, and just hilarious.
3. A longer video also gave other reactions by people, who were so supportive.
Whomever suggested Waffle House deserves a bonus. The President needed that positive energy from the people
UncleEbeneezer
@stacib: They assume the majority of our coalition shares their feelings and that everything should proceed according to that.
Soprano2
@Frankensteinbeck: I think part of the problem is that the major outlets don’t cover the things Democrats do as extensively as they should, plus a lot of this stuff is kind of boring so people ignore it.
tam1MI
The Uncommitted assholes aren’t the only ones who can throw an election to Donald Trump.
Bupalos
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh it’s a fucking disaster, no doubt about it. Another institutional failing of our world-class democracy that we somehow can’t generate democratic legitimacy in a case like this. How would one even possibly do that?
“Hey, what if your guy that is 20% on the actuarial tables to be incapacitated gets incapacitated?”
Um…..
“Do you have some elections to see who people want as their candidate?”
Um… elections? see, we… See this is The United States. We’re the world-leading democracy. We ah….we figure…
hmmmm…
Suzanne
@stacib: I don’t propose getting rid of Biden. I think there’s a shit-ton of risk in it at this point.
I do submit that Biden needs to recognize that he was not in a strong position before this debate, and he made that worse with the debate. And he needs a different communications strategy moving forward to undue the damage to his image that he caused.
I also think that we should look at this instructively within the party, and develop a stronger culture of succession planning. I think Biden is “stubborn” and “a fighter” and those instincts serve him well at times and poorly at other times. Nancy Pelosi will have my undying respect for how she very intentionally set up Hakeem Jeffries for success and off-boarded in such a way that protects her legacy as much as possible. If we win, it’s going to be by the skin of our teeth.
Betty
@Kay: I agree. He can do it because he knows lots of stuff.
Kay
@Suzanne:
Absolutely. Great way to put it. The Senate polling indicates that, too. It’s not “the Democrats” and it’s not policy. It’s Biden.
I don’t remember this ever happening before where the Party brand wasn’t unpopular but the President was. Obama’s nadir was 2010 but Democrats were also tanking.
This actually explains the better Dem performance in specials too – they’re not a referendum on Biden.
We could do this but it would take a very different approach than what we’ve always done. We’d be running The Democrats, not Joe Biden.
Bupalos
@stacib: None of us know what will ensure what and we should stop faking it. We’re giving our thoughts. Mine is that Biden performing like he did in say 2022 from this point out even with the big hit would be our best chance. I also think it’s very unlikely he can perform that way and the the debate is some one off thing, but YMMV.
From this point out It’s profoundly unlikely that any of this happens without Biden voluntarily withdrawing, that’s my assumption and what I’m asking Kay. But in the reverse case, I will absolutely vote for whoever ends up on this ticket opposite Trump. Absolutely. I am in fact surprised to hear threats like that, I didn’t think it was what we were talking about.
Kay
@UncleEbeneezer:
I assume nothing of the kind. Everything I say is ME, no one else. These are my opinions. I am not calling up any group as backing me up.
Kay
@Suzanne:
It’s the mirror image of Republicans. Just wild. Under this reading of the situation they do better if Trump (not Republicans) are on the ballot and we do better if Democrats (not Biden) are on the ballot.
I have to think about this!
Cacti
@Belafon: I mean unscripted.
Quiltingfool
Around here we are used to Trump doing his narcissistic Nazi fascist shit show. We comment on it all the time, so when he does the same shit show, we shrug it off. It’s nothing new or remarkable.
We enjoy all the memes of Aviator Sunglasses Joe, Empathetic Joe, Sassy Joe, etc. We brag how our guy does good things for Americans. This is the Joe we know. So when he “fucks up” a debate he should’ve had in the bag, everybody panics. Because it’s new. It’s not normal “Sassy Joe.” So it’s now obvious he cannot govern anymore, right? All the voters on the margins are going to go for the Nazi dude who is absolutely horrendous, right? Um hmmm, yeah.
I’m going to echo what Frankensteinbeck has said repeatedly: Trump shit the bed and snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. The margins of voters who will choose Trump over Biden got a load of Trumps rhetoric and said, no thanks.
I don’t know what will happen come November, but I can tell you I’ll vote for a senile old fart (I don’t think. Biden is senile, btw) over a Nazi fascist. And I’ll vote for a Republican when Hell freezes over, which is never, as I don’t believe in Hell.
Some of our valued commenters are not here today, because we keep litigating the debate. They are tired of it. I am, too. I’m going to choose to be a winter, not summer, soldier and let the chips fall where they may.
Soprano2
@Kay: I think that’s because it’s a TCFG cult, not a political movement. That statement about him not losing any supporters if he shot someone is true BECAUSE IT’S A CULT.
Suzanne
@Soprano2: Exactly right. It’s a fucking cult of personality.
The fast that Democrats are fucken fractious is actually a positive sign. It is clearly indicative that we are not a cult of personality.
OTOH, it’s difficult, because we have to keep the coalition together, and that is not reliable!
SomeRandomGuy
I thought S.E. Cupp had died of asphyxiation due to failure to remember to breathe. Last I heard, she was arguing that abortion was the only murder where the person responsible for the murder – planning, payment, and accessory before and after the fact – is considered a “victim”, who should never, ever, ever, bear *any* responsibility because
punishing the woman polls badlyshe’s the *real victim!Oh, wait. Maybe she meant that *SHE*, S.E. Cupp, is the “real victim” for having to defend such arrant nonsense. “Come on, people, just believe me that ‘abortion is bad’ and that pro-life is a good thing, even where if it results in excess death.'”
Bupalos
@UncleEbeneezer: Nothing could be more obvious than this not being a popular position. No idea what you’re talking about.
Let me clarify further that my own position- which is marginally that Joe should himself decide to withdraw from the campaign today- is based on a balance of risk going forward. An equation I think we/he already fucked up to our much greater detriment in 2023 than is possible for us to screw up now. Because of the factors that now inhere, our odds of retaining the presidency and our ability to improve those odds are low enough that we’re mostly arguing over scraps.
Bupalos
If you’re planning to somehow win an American election without getting the assholes…. well, make a new plan.
Kay
@Soprano2:
That’s one piece. Trump brings Republicans voters out but Republicans do not.
One more data point – Biden is at sub 40% approval but the congressional generic ballot is even. It isn’t bleeding to Democrats. When Obama was polling poorly the generic congressional ballot also tanked – people were upset with Democrats, not just Obama.
So Senate Dems poll ahead of Biden by 5, we win special elections that aren’t a referendum on Joe Biden and Biden’s sub 40 approval rating has not dragged down the D on the congressional generic ballot. It’s just him.
I don’t remember this ever happening before. Usually we go down together.
Can we just run “The Democrats”? That seems to be the way to go. Our Party is better liked than our top of the ticket candidate. Their party is less liked than their top of the ticket candidate.
SomeRandomGuy
@Bupalos: How many winning Presidential campaigns have you won? 0? When you think the DEMOCRATS are going to WIN the ASSHOLE vote?
If you’ve won 0: why am I not surprised that you don’t actually have any information about the subject matter.
If you’ve won 1 or more: “The Southern Strategy is long over; the Republicans won the asshole vote, Mr. van Winkle.” (NB: Rip van Winkle, fictional subject of a “slept 100 years” story.)
If you’ve never worked in professional politics: THIS WAS MY GUESS! Did I win?
Kay
@Soprano2:
It would be The Democrats versus Donald Trump. I like that.
Slightly_peeved
@Kay:
There are better responses out there, but what Biden’s saying here is correct and addresses a number of key points:
– that Trump lied,
– that the Republicans and Trump wish to let states impose their own restrictions on abortion, which is similar to letting states rule on civil rights,
– that women are far more likely to be raped by people they know,
– that pregnant women will be arrested for crossing state lines to have abortions.
There are better responses around, but it’s ridiculous to use that as an argument Biden’s faculties aren’t there. He’s hit multiple points in his argument as well as directly countering Trump’s argument.
EarthWindFire
@Another Scott: I didn’t knock on doors this weekend but I spent some time with normie Dem voters. They were seriously pissed that Dem strategists texted the media about Biden dropping out instead of about Trump being a lying 34 count convicted felon.
Quote: “It was completely inappropriate. If the party’s going to replace its nominee, you don’t go over the president’s head and use the media to shit on him.”
Suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: I guess it depends on how you define “asshole”. If we’re talking about MAGA douchebags, racist, sexist, coal-rolling types….. then of course we don’t win them. But if you define “asshole” the way LGM sort of fleshed out the “Ariana Grande theory of politics“….. well, yeah, you do need at least some of them to win, and they do make snap judgments based on less information and images.
All thinking people isn’t a majority, etc etc etc.
evodevo
@satby: Oh, yeah…LOVED that LOL
SomeRandomGuy
You know, anyone who has even the least bit of experience with solving real problem doesn’t ask a completely stupid question like that.
Given that we know he was prepared, we can guess he didn’t answer cleanly because he simply had too much to say, and his neurological disorder prevented him from forming the complicated answer he wanted to give on the spur of the moment.
So, you don’t like Biden because he has a stutter, and, he failed to answer a question on abortion. Now, if I didn’t have CFS, and have people treat me like a moron every time I flub a few words, *FUCK OFF*. We don’t need assholes like you questioning competence because it doesn’t talk real pretty.
You want to find someone to fuck over after the debate? How about Mr. “given *three chances* to offer to accept the results of the election, just bitched bout immigration for some reason” Trump?
Oh: but TRUMP isn’t being insulted and heckled and catcalled and your fee-fees are hurt. I get it. It’s like S.E. Cupp who swore she voted for Biden once, but if he doesn’t step down, she’ll “never trust us again,” which is poor grammar. The proper grammar would state that as she’ll “never say she trusts us again.”
Same difference.
SomeRandomGuy
@SomeRandomGuy:
For some reason, I could not get the visual editor to work when I tried to respond to a different poster. The above link was the result. I’m not sure if anyone else has had that problem in forever.
EarthWindFire
And blackball every media outlet who has any concern troll “democratic strategist” on from here forward. Joe’s better off going on The View and Charlemagne tha God.
Slightly_peeved
you mean what he actually said?
”And this is the guy who says the states should be able to have it. We’re in a state where in six weeks you don’t even know whether you’re pregnant or not, but you cannot see a doctor, have your – and have him decide on what your circumstances are, whether you need help.”
we’ve got someone saying Biden should have said the thing he actually said, and we’ve got people saying he should do unscripted appearances when he did one immediately after the debate. Some of y’all should spend more time worrying about your own failing memories more than Biden’s.
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: I’m sorry, but when the word “asshole” needs to be especially defined, so folks with a graduate degree can come to an understanding of the argument, the original statement needed to be modified.
What is being sought is the LIV, the “low information voter,” and not “the asshole.” If you want to seek LIVs, you need to make the right display, one that will appeal. If you want to collect the asshole vote, you need to be an asshole.
Lemme mention something, okay? Obama’s first debate was *terrible* and made a lot more campaign fodder for Republicans than Biden’s performance. Did he pull a Democrat->asshole turn? No, he ran a standard Democratic campaign, and won.
He did exactly what most people I’ve seen over the past few days have NOT done.
HE DID NOT PANIC. HE RECOGNIZED THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE RACE HAD NOT CHANGED.
Suzanne
@Slightly_peeved: He needs to do weeks, if not months, of unscripted appearances, in a variety of formats. Showing up once in a Waffle House is not going to be sufficient.
I don’t even live in Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’ district, and yet I come across her frequently. On podcasts and viral clips, all the time. At least weekly. She’s really good at getting out there and commanding positive attention in the current media environment. I hope that Joe’s team tries to follow a similar strategy.
Suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: Obama’s first debate was bad, but there’s a problem with this comparison. Obama’s perceived liability at the time wasn’t his fitness. He came off somewhat contemptuous and bored and low-energy, but there wasn’t a months-long narrative of that that had built up. He also was out in front of cameras more frequently, giving press conferences. So it was much easier to consider it an aberration.
Biden’s performance underscored his #1 liability. It is different by degree. It requires more pushback.
Ksmiami
@Kay: agreed. Get him out there as much as possible. Joke about cold medicine etc. And if he cannot do that, change the game.
BarcaChicago
@The Thin Black Duke: Please don’t go. We need your voice and perspective.
tam1MI
@BarcaChicago: If he goes, he will the second POC the assholes have pushed out of here in as many days.
UncleEbeneezer
BarcaChicago
@tam1MI: I know. I certainly understand why they wouldn’t want to stay. But I suspect there are many lurkers like myself that value them.
Chris Johnson
@UncleEbeneezer: I’ve got in a lot of hot water over insisting that there’s Russian bots hard at work up in here. And it’s worth me remembering that a lot of people are followers: if you put enough Russian bots around them and get them panicky, they’ll amplify the messaging because to them, their world is the messaging.
I would not like to see this place get poorer simply because the russian bottage strategy, worked. We don’t get to render the commentariat completely free of that messaging. But we do get to bark back.
I’m enjoying the youtube comments sections of Beau of the Fifth Column, and Harry Litman, right now. Beau is solid, but Harry ran a ‘debate panel’ full of bedwetters, and the comments have been giving him holy hell for it. Love to see that :)
tam1MI
It’s worth noting that in the days since the debate, Biden has seen a surge of donations to his campaign – $33 million and still rising, far outpacing Trump. So much for the bed-wetters.
Suzanne
@Chris Johnson: I think it also matters who you’re surrounded by. I talk a lot about the election with Spawn the Elder, who is my oldest kid, and he is trans. This is his first presidential election. Much of his friend group is also LGBTQ, and they’re all on TikTok. Some of them (not Spawn) are in college, but, like, community college and state schools. Spawn is absolutely gritting his teeth to vote for Biden. Probably half of his friends who I have talked to are just totally checked out. They hate Trump but don’t have confidence that Biden will be effective. They are absolutely the Ariana Grande voters. I hope I can get them to show up on Election Day.
UncleEbeneezer
@Chris Johnson: I don’t think we’ve had lots of Russian bots here, but the reason Russian bots are effective is because they push stuff that people who are not Russian bots will latch onto and spread. We are all possible marks. And we need to be honest about the fact that Russia (and China and Iran) are doing the most to divide our coalition by pushing propaganda about Biden’s age, Gaza etc., under the guise of Progressive/Centrist principles. And these rat-fuckers get their inspiration from the stuff we all post on social media and yes, even in top-10,000 political blogs. That’s how they figure out the most likely avenues for dividing us.
artem1s
can this get a post of it’s own plz! I know it’s been out there a while, but we need the reminder of what’s really going on with the great Biden replacement theory.
BarcaChicago
@UncleEbeneezer: correct on all points and extremely important to understand. Don’t be played, people.
Emily B.
Josh Marshall makes some good points in his column in his column today. Here’s a gift link.
Short version: Switching candidates comes with huge costs and hands Trump a big win in terms of optics. “You cannot run a winning campaign based on validating your opponent’s central premise.”
Kay
@SomeRandomGuy:
Oh, bullshit. Stop excusing a poor performance. Senate candidates also run against MAGA candidates who lie constantly – they’re all doing well.
I’m backing him staying in but the panicked effort to pretend he did a good job is not something I’m going along with. It’s fear based. Look the problem square in the face. Deal with it. We have a weak candidate at the top of the ticket but our “brand” is very good as are our down ballot candidates. We can do a lot with that – maybe even drag him over the finish line.
It’s not the economy or racism or sexism because if it were Democrats wouldn’t be doing so well in both elections and polling. He’s less popular than the Party as a whole. That’s not the worst hand to have. It could be worse – Biden AND Democrats could be unpopular. That’s when you get wiped out.
moonbat
Jeez! People, give it a rest! Biden is not stepping down and he probably will not do enough non-scripted, face-to-face, in-person events to satisfy some folks because he has to sleep, eat, and, you know, be President of the United States on occasion. A job, I might add, that he’s doing pretty well.
I happen to be SO OLD I remember Suzanne swearing up and down that Arizona would never, ever, ever, ever, ever go blue. But in 2020 it went blue and helped elect Joe Biden. So maybe some people’s political savvy isn’t as timeless and fantastic as they seem to think.
Chris Johnson
@Kay: Um.
With respect and hopefully gentleness, you don’t get to say I’m panicked just by saying I’m panicked. Citation needed.
My first reaction was ‘is this rope-a-dope? risky’. Not panic. I thought maybe Joe and his team were setting Trump up to become overconfident and run amok. If you read from the start you’ll see me suggesting that, days and days ago. I remember posting it.
There’s sentencing to come. Trump absolutely running amok is not off the table. It’s way too early to decide Biden and his people have fucked this up. These are exactly the circumstances to produce shocking, alienating Republican overreach. It’s time to ask whether they should be swapping Trump out for Nikki Haley.
Elie
I have no problem with electing Joe. How do we deal w AFTER. Are we to assume he will not decline and will be able to sustain his visible leadership for the next four years? We have got to think about this. I’m afraid we are just suppressing thinking about these things. I don’t have a solution. We cannot allow Trump into that office ever again. Yes we work like hell but how do we address the after part with integrity?
Chris Johnson
@Elie: Absolutely don’t care. The President isn’t a God or even a King. Nor do our people act as if he is.
This isn’t single combat. Settle down.
UncleEbeneezer
@Emily B.: This is too good:
I know our side often has a reflexive disdain for being overly loyal, Sheeple etc., to the Dem Party/leaders but that ignores the fact that with just a tiny fraction of a % more of loyal Dem voters in 2016 and 2022, we wouldn’t even be in this mess. The blindly loyal Dems are the foundation of our coalition and their loyalty is the very reason we even have a fighting chance at all. If anything, having more of them would greatly help our cause.
BarcaChicago
@Elie: KAMALA. FFS.
When you got me using all caps, you know you’ve gotten on my last nerve. Sheesh.
Matt McIrvin
@Elie: After? There’s nothing wrong with Kamala Harris. If Joe can’t hack it any more, or if he dies, she’s on deck. That’s what she’s there for. It’s fine.
Miss Bianca
@Dorothy A. Winsor: l miss those fireworks!
gvg
@Bupalos: Oh yes we have. We voted in primaries and a bunch of loudmouths who do not have authority and are NOT the majority want to throw all of Biden’s votes out for someone else who didn’t even run. Go jump off a cliff, pardon my bluntness. The convention and “nomination” is supposed to be a formality and a rah rah event. Back when the party picked the candidate it had more meaning, but in modern times, it means a lot more, and legally I don’t think you can throw out the primary votes unless Biden dies or withdraws, or doesn’t get to the minimum in the first ballot. He will, so thats out. I think one primary is not binding, the rest are.
gvg
@Bupalos: yes they are binding because the party did decide long ago that they were, except, I think one state that is transitioning from caucus to primary and holds both, is still awarding the delegates by the caucus results bot the primary.
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: Ah, there’s no counter for Republicans being dickheads, so we’re all doomed, and should throw away the best candidate we have, and go with someone else.
Works for me, but only when I plan to die really soon, and don’t care about the future any longer.
Miss Bianca
@The Thin Black Duke: I am out of here too, for the nonce, because I have better things to do with my time than wade through an endless stream of Doomerism shit from people I would frankly expect better from. And then a bunch of Doomerism shit from a bunch of nyms I either don’t recognize or do recognize as concern-trolling shitposters whose opinions I couldn’t fucking care less about.
But thank you for your comment.
SomeRandomGuy
@Kay: I believe that what *I* asked was for you to please *FUCK OFF* because you want to shitcan Biden BECAUSE HE HAS A FUCKING STUTTER THAT SHOWED UP INCONVENIENTLY.
Since I now *have* a stutter, I take your calling one out as a reason to shitcan him as a personal insult… because, see, it’s personal. Two years ago, it wouldn’t have been, and I’d have said the same goddamned thing.
Now, if you’re whiny and worried, that’s okay, but you don’t say “SHITCAN THE STUTTERER” without me calling out that you *are* being an asshole.
When a person stutters, it isn’t something that can be easily practiced away. He could have repeated a stock answer, because he practiced a stock answer over and over – for you, the kind of dickhead who thinks a stutter makes him incompetent. But you can’t plan for an unexpected subject matter introduction. If your stock answer doesn’t work, you have to wing it.
Your fucking transcript is *exactly* what people might be forced to do when winging it. You wanted him to stand there playing pocketball instead?
gvg
@Elie: Oh, that part is easy, Harris is fine, and Joe built an excellent team. Details will depend on what if anything happens and we can’t pre guess, but do remember Biden has an excellent family history.
Suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: Neither Kay nor I called for “shitcanning” Biden. We called for a change in his media communications strategy to make it more effective. You know, that thing that political campaigns spend millions of dollars on. Some of us donate and would like that money to be well-spent.
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: I believe you’re not calling for shitcanning Biden, but there must have been far better forums on which to discuss such a thing.
Kay made hay out of a transcript that’s easy to see was someone trying to keep to a line of argument, but had too many points to make that he couldn’t touch on them all. SHE BROUGHT THE RECEIPTS.
And all they proved was an ignorant fool spouted off about a stutterer. Ah, but you can choose instead to believe that I am the ignorant fool; I’m sure Kay will, for the crime of knowing a lot more about stuttering, and being willing to call out rude ignorance.
Suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: This is literally a blog about Democratic politics. This is, like it or not, a topic of current salience. It’s a perfectly reasonable forum to discuss issues surrounding the candidacy of the Democratic candidate for president.
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: Ah. And you’re unhappy about “so we’re doomed, which bothers me, except when I’m near death” as my response to you? I really want to know – I know some normies are horrified to hear that I’m sometimes suicidal, and no longer concerned about petty bullshit like “OMG a bad debate performance!”
If not, I must assume you’re complaining about me calling out rude disability shaming. And, I believe the expression is (I’m) Sorry (that you are bothered by it, but I am EMPHATICALLY), NOT sorry (that I spoke harshly when harshness was called for).
“Sorry, not sorry.”
Did I use that right? I do hope so.
Suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: I don’t think we’re doomed. I think that we need a shift in strategy if we genuinely want to win.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@moonbat:
👍
SomeRandomGuy
@Suzanne: Do you need me to say that I think you’re an okay person? I do – I don’t hold anything against you. I was feeling snippy with you, and you can say that I rudely portrayed you as worse than you were, but, as I mentioned on another comment, I *am* sorry if you found what I wrote distressing.
I still felt that it needed to be said. We know he has a stutter; I tried to give people more information about what a stutter *means*. It’s a neurological condition, one more likely to show up when you’re stressed, and he’s *constantly* fighting it. Every time he says stuff like “and that’s awful behavior. Awful behavior,” he is forcing himself to do that repetition to help with the stutter.
If you read his response, and let it touch your heart, you can see all the subjects he’s trying to fit in, all the things he *yearns* to say, but can’t. And if you don’t see that, then you don’t know how a stutter works.
Can it be helped? Yeah. I think he should train himself to say something like “it’s hard to explain my position on abortion. Trump is a *monster* (maybe include 1-3 examples), and blah, blah, blah.”
Front and center: Trump is a monster. No one will care about the blah blah blah portion.
I refuse to speculate about whether that would have helped him at the debate, but, that’s what my instinct, as a person who now has a stutter, suggests. You can practice “Trump is a *monster* on abortion,” and that’s really all that matters.
SomeRandomGuy
Side note: that may sound a lot more sarcastic than I intended. I meant exactly what I said, Suzanne – I think you’re a decent person. That’s the beginning and the end. I was upset with Kay, and I won’t deny it, and if it bled over to you, well, I am sorry. But with you, I was only being snippy, because I couldn’t write the response I wanted to write, and it upset me out of proportion to the problem.
I have a stutter, you see. I may never “write” (as in, long form writing) ever again.
Mentioning you might have chosen a different forum, that was a tone argument, for which I apologize. Frank and earnest: I couldn’t write the response I wanted, due to my complicated neurological condition, which, of late, includes a stutter.
ETC: I removed the final line, feeling it was redundant
suzanne
@SomeRandomGuy: As it happens, my husband is a speech-language pathologist for bilingual kids, and many of his students and their families have become friends of ours. I also live with my mom, who has some brain damage and aphasia after encephalitis. I am incredibly sorry that you are struggling, and I very much wish you well.
I disagree with people on here all the time, but I genuinely try never to be mean about it. We’re all just talking. I appreciate the good faith.