Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

Of course you can have champagne before noon. That’s why orange juice was invented.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

Nothing says ‘pro-life’ like letting children go hungry.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Come on, man.

The low info voters probably won’t even notice or remember by their next lap around the goldfish bowl.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Everybody saw this coming.

Let me file that under fuck it.

Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

Dear elected officials: Trump is temporary, dishonor is forever.

Our messy unity will be our strength.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Not all heroes wear capes.

You are here: Home / Elections 2024 / Wednesday Evening Open Thread: The ‘Debate’ Goes Ever On

Wednesday Evening Open Thread: The ‘Debate’ Goes Ever On

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This post is in: , , ,

Reuters:

NBC:

I don’t read Propane Jane as often as I should, because she’s so prolific, but this thread is excellent:


Mr. Charles P. Pierce, at Esquire:

… [T]here hasn’t been a presidential campaign in my lifetime in which the money boys didn’t panic over something. The consulting class—from the old Obama hands to, God help us, James Carville—all sit around being smarter than everybody else because they once hit the lottery with a genius-level politician. The pundit class needed grist for the mill, and I hate to say I told you so, but our stalwart new friends, the Never Trump Republicans, fairly stampeded to the lifeboats. The late Lowell George called it back in 1971.

Okay, so here’s my take. The president is the candidate as long as he wants to be the candidate. If he takes himself out, then Vice President Harris is the candidate. Period. Full stop. Over and out. She’s the only one who can deploy the money that the Biden campaign has raised, and the only one with a legitimate claim on the political infrastructure already in place. Passing her over for Johnny Perfect Candidate guarantees a bloody nomination battle and the loss of a big chunk of one of the most important parts of the Democratic base.

The Brokered Convention is a glorious fantasy for people who cover politics and know absolutely nothing about political history. The 1924 Democratic convention in New York, to name just one example that’s been bandied about recently, was a four-star political calamity. It took the party 103 ballots to nominate a faceless lawyer named John W. Davis, largely because William McAdoo, a prohibitionist backed by the revived Ku Klux Klan, and New York governor Al Smith, the Catholic and a “wet,” couldn’t get out of each other’s way. Thus did Calvin Coolidge win his own full term as president. Imagine all that with social media and television. On second thought, don’t.

The president is the candidate if he wants to be. If not, Vice President Harris is. All else is chaos. Don’t believe, no, don’t believe, don’t believe everything you hear…

And Rev. Senator Warnock is a wise man:

Reader Interactions

193Comments

  1. 1.

    Urza

    Many a day I wish Balloon Juice had like buttons for articles and comments.  But that would be most of them I suppose.

  2. 2.

    BlueDWarrior

    Finally someone puts it plain. This feels like a lot of (but not all, and not solely) White Liberals and Progressives (both TM’d) wanting a chance to assert that they know best and that those silly primary voters 4 years ago clearly made the wrong choice.

    If you want Biden to step down, there is literally one, only one viable option, that’s Kamala Harris. If you aren’t willing to say right now that you’d be all-in on Kamala if such a thing were to happen, you aren’t serious about actually winning the election; and we’re back to Berners and other people trying to prove a point.

    And unless Biden has a pretty damn significant health event or accident, that all this is going to be, baseless speculation. Accept the fact he had a bad night, but don’t oversell the bad night and try to create an apocalyptic event out of nothing.

    There are still 4 months of this campaign left, get the fuck to work.

  3. 3.

    Chris

    Good. This ought to be the end of it at least as far as any Democrat who’s trying to win in November is concerned. Of course, it probably won’t be, but I can dream.

  4. 4.

    Ishiyama

    Both Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden beat substantial opposition to win their nomination. If there had been any other candidate who appealed more to the voters, overall, they would not have won. Anybody who replaced Joe at this point would not be the same, lacking any manifestation of popular support. Some rules in politics are simple: “You can’t beat a horse with no horse”.

  5. 5.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I have Joe’s back until the minute HE (not a surrogate, not a spox) looks me in the eye and says “I’m out.” Joe has given me a lot of reasons to trust him and very damn few not to. And I trust him on this decision. His call. Not mine, not other Dems, and damn fuckin skippy not the MSM.

  6. 6.

    Elizabelle

    I love Senator Warnock too, and he is right.

    Re Little Feat:  listening to Kiss it Off now.  A dark song, one of my favorites by them.  Milk Toast Hitler.

    Love me some Lowell George.  He would be rolling his eyes at this shit, too.

  8. 8.

    delphinium

    Thanks for this AL! And yes to all of it. Joe wasn’t my preferred candidate but he won, chose a fantastic VP, has surrounded himself with great people, and has been a better president than I thought possible.

    If he wants to stay and fight, then let him.

  9. 9.

    Chris Johnson

    That’s the guy I voted for.

    I trust Joe, Kamala, and their team to NOT GO CRAZY even when the world’s going fucking crazy around them. And as they stand strong, so will I, because I too know the difference between right and wrong.

    Yeah, I didn’t start out his guy either, but the man has more than won me over. I’d literally take a bullet for the dude. He’s more needed than I am, even though I’m way younger.

    I can also tell a ratfucking when I see one, and I am not impressed by the scale of the fuckery. Daunted, sure, but not impressed, much less pleased or swayed. It only makes me more grimly determined.

    Right now, I can be grimly determined to do my exercises and go to freaking bed.

    I hope the OTHER people all freaking out orchestrated by nefarious ratfuckers… I hope THEY all stroke out. Not me. There’s fighting to do, and it is the kind of fighting that translates to ‘work and effort and planning and building and staying good’, not the kind of fighting indistinguishable from terrorists except by their jerseys.

  11. 11.

    Spanky

    @BlueDWarrior:

    those silly primary voters 4 years ago clearly made the wrong choice.

    For the record,  primary voters such as myself made our choice not four months ago.

    Nobody has the right to negate my vote, and I am fucking pissed that these mofos have tried to do it.

  12. 12.

    Citizen Dave

    My normie wife hasn’t heard any of this shit (because I intentionally have been quiet about it) until 40 minutes ago, Inside Edition mentioned the 25 House Ds, etc.  She said “What!?  Biden’s not running”.  Agree with y’all and Pierce.  It’s just a bunch of noise.  Let’s Fucking Go!

  13. 13.

    Jack Mackerel

    @BlueDWarrior: Yes, I think Biden should step aside and Kamala should be the nominee. If Biden didn’t have the mental decline, it’d be super easy to dispel that notion. Instead, we’re getting a bunch of nothing or controlled events (teleprompter readings with no questions asked). The press and major Dem players want to see if he can perform but Biden’s team is mostly hiding him away.

  14. 14.

    Origuy

    I’m old enough to remember the McGovern campaign, although I was too young to vote. After the convention, VP candidate Tom Eagleton was revealed to have had electroshock therapy for severe depression. Back then, this was a catastrophe. McGovern first said that he supported Eagleton “1000 percent” and then got pressured to ask him to step down. The DNC met and chose Sargent Shriver, Ethel Kennedy’s husband. Certainly a capable administrator, and ambassador to France, but relatively unknown. McGovern lost in a rout. I’m not sure that McGovern would have won if Eagleton had stayed on the ticket, but the delay and the kerfuffle killed whatever momentum the Democrats had.

    It didn’t help that the convention dragged on so long that McGovern’s acceptance speech was given at 3 AM eastern time. He gave a barn-burner, but no one saw it.

  15. 15.

    Elizabelle

    LOL.  The New Yorker just sent out a link to their archive story on Robert Moses, from 1974.

    As in:  don’t cancel on us right away.  You will miss the archives.  And the crossword puzzle.

    Fuck their editor David Remnick.  He should know better. But he is a media elite, no?

    RE Moses:  maybe it’s “here’s another old out of touch white guy and look what he did?”  Who knows.

  17. 17.

    japa21

    Let me put it this way.  Joe loves America more than he loves himself. And he, quite literally, is willing to die for the country he loves.

    To be honest, there aren’t a lot of people I can say that about, and no Republicans I can say that about.

  19. 19.

    prostratedragon

    In a few minutes (7 Eastern) TCM starts an evening of Roger Corman movies with X: The Man with the X-ray Eyes. Perfect for news dodging.

  20. 20.

    theturtlemoves

    Per the Charles Pierce piece, I just want to know what unholy ritual keeps getting performed to summon James Carville out of whatever crypt he resides in for the idiots in the press to get quotes from him.

  21. 21.

    CaseyL

    The Atlantic is asking “Has the Biden Bubble Popped?” and I just cancelled my subscription to them.

    I am so angry at the Fourth Estate right now I would cheerfully blow up all their pretty buildings.

  23. 23.

    cmorenc

    No matter how hard we reaffirm our belief in Joe and his vast virtues, it’s not going to work unless he can pull off recasting normie voter’s shaky impression of him from the debate.  Not going to be easy with the media feeding the frenzy.

  24. 24.

    trnc

    @Chris Johnson: ​
      I’ll admit to a bit of panic, and I’m not going to blame the media for this one. It’s just based on my own observations. However, I guess he either goes on to prove that the debate really was a one time event, or he has another bad public appearance and drops out at that point.

  25. 25.

    Mike in Pasadena

    I’m sick of the bedwetter caucus. Obama’s first debate against Mittens was a disaster. He went on to an electoral college win that wiped the floor with Romney’s face. Hillary won all three debates and lost the electoral college to dumpf. Debates mean little. The bedwetters need to buy rubber sheets. (See Tuna Texas and Tuna Christmas.)

  26. 26.

    Chris

    @Citizen Dave:

    It’s not the first time I say this, but the last week has really reinforced this view: the people in this country with the most rational relationship to politics, by far, are the voters who are both low-info (or at least low-engagement; they don’t check the op ed page of their preferred media every day) and politically partisan. They know what their party stands for, they know that the main thing standing in the way of getting it is the other party, and they vote accordingly.

  27. 27.

    Jay

    As a Canadian,

    Hated Reagan,

    Hated Bush,

    Tolerated Clinton,

    Hated Bush The Sequel,

    Liked Obama, sort of,

    Utterly despised Felon 34,

    Thought Biden would be meh, but he picked MVP and has been the only US President in my life that I fanboy about.

  32. 32.

    Ukai

    This was on my news feed: “Biden Tells Allies He Knows He Has Only Days to Salvage Candidacy – NYT, Katie Rogers”. I came the closest I’ve come to throwing my phone across the room.

    I (thankfully) don’t subscribe to the FTFNYT. If someone wants to take one for the team, can they confirm whether any confirmed sources were identified?

  34. 34.

    Eyeroller

    @Ukai: I recall he told a less slanted source that he knew he had to do well over the next several days.  Not the same.  But it’s the FTFNYT.

  35. 35.

    Jay

    @CaseyL:

    Turn their “pretty buildings” into SRO’s for the unhoused.

    @cmorenc:

    @trnc:

    “normies” arn’t paying attention. They are focused on their potato salad recipe for tomorrows BBQ, where they can celibrate the dissolusion of the Union and the return of the Monarchy,

    and buying fireworks in bulk from the guy in the tent with the 3 fingers and one eye.

  36. 36.

    theturtlemoves

    @delphinium: ​
    The only good thing is digging up the old Bill Hader clips from Saturday Night Live where he does an impression of him. Those are pretty hilarious.

  37. 37.

    ArchTeryx

    @TBone: Man, they are gaslighting so hard they’re gonna trigger a BLEVE. If only it would get rid of them all, I’d be throwing matches at them.

    I know who my goddamn enemies are and it’s Republicans. Too bad so many D bedwetters can’t seem to get it through their skulls – my orange cat has more brain cells than they do.

  38. 38.

    zhena gogolia

    @Elizabelle: Can you believe the way that “newswoman” emotes when she’s channeling the “concerned Democrats”? It sounds as if she’s auditioning for the school play!

    Thank you, Propane Jane and Sen. Warnock!

  39. 39.

    jimmiraybob

    The frame shouldn’t be whether Joe can govern effectively for the next four years. 

    The frame should be whether he can get us to 2025.

    If anybody has flown in one of those new fangled aeroplanes there’s a reason that there’s a co-pilot.  Once roll-out is happening all the captain has to do is get the contraption off the ground in a stable condition.  After that there are safeguards but if he makes the whole flight then bravo.

    If Joe gets us to February 2025 then we will have secured another four years to try to right the craft.  I would hope that he makes it all four years but if not I will trust the co-pilot and flight staff to complete his vision.

    The Trump/MAGA/GOP-right has literally declared war against the lawful constitutional republic that is America.  At least the America built on the long history and tradition starting in 1789 (take that Alito ya bi#!…).

  40. 40.

    Eyeroller

    @cmorenc: Funny thing is that according to focus groups and flash polls etc., to the extent we can draw conclusions from that, the normies weren’t concerned with Biden’s “dementia”.  They paid attention to both Biden and Trump and thought both had issues but Trump was horrible. But the media/Democratic freakout may make them reconsider.

  42. 42.

    Eric S.

    I’ve spent the past week shoring up friends confidence in Biden. I’ve reminded them, “Vote against fascism” I’m all in on Biden. I’m going to be sharing Sen Warnock’s tweet because it’s a perfect reaction and response.

     

    Am I as confident as I’m boasting? No. I’m worried. We hate on the MSM for good cause but they get the “MS” in their name because that’s where most people get what little news they know.

     

    We can personally be worried and talk amongst other loyal soldiers but we need a positive outward face. And we need to work.

  45. 45.

    Mike E

    @pinacacci: Look at her with fucking hammers and tongs going after our future as a democracy like it’s a piñata, holy shit. And Rev Warnock, how I wish he was my senator! Superstar.

  48. 48.

    Mike in Pasadena

    Who won the primaries? Joe Biden.

    That’s how the party chooses its nominee.

    Pundits and armchair politicians don’t choose the D party’s nominee.

    The vast majority of American voters don’t watch debates and don’t give a rip what pundits say.

  50. 50.

    Chris

    @Eyeroller:

    That’s the concern, yes.

    IIRC, focus groups and polls immediately after the first Bush/Gore debate had Gore winning easily. The media went into freakout mode, spent the next few weeks blitzkrieging the airwaves with negative stories; “Gore sighed,” “he was professorial,” “he sounded condescending,” etc. Soon enough, the polls started saying Gore lost.

    The media is definitely trying for a similar thing here. They don’t have to work nearly as hard since they spent the last four years laying the narrative (it’s why the great pants-wetting went the way it did) and even Biden seems to agree that he performed badly in that debate. But they’re definitely trying to turn what would, normally, have faded in a few weeks into the defining scandal that will cover their pages from here to November.

  51. 51.

    way2blue

    I’m done with the ‘pearl clutchers’.  The kumbaya wing of the Democratic Party has two tendencies that drive me to distraction:  (1) Always wanting to be thought of as ‘nice guys’ rather than punching  back now & then; (2) Gaming out a fight, then throwing in the towel if it seems too challenging.  One Biden muff and we’re at #2.  Really?  The NYT, of course, has its knives out.  Yo!

    During the 2020 primary season, Biden was my fourth choice.  But he’s been a remarkable president.  Who has steered the country back to charted waters.  I’m forever grateful.  And hopeful he can continue for another 4 years…

  52. 52.

    Another Scott

    @jimmiraybob:

    My dad used to say: “Don’t compare me to the Almighty. Compare me to the alternative.” – President Biden

    That’s what people need to keep in mind.

    The choice is Biden or Trump. Those are the 2 names on the ballot.

    That’s it.

    The choice is easy. Very, very easy.

    All the rest is commentary.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  54. 54.

    delphinium

    @Eyeroller: This is so important. Biden had a bad debate but Trump did too and his performance turned off a lot more people. And obviously there is no comparison to Biden’s actual record of presidenting to Trump’s.

    I completely understand the worry, but I trust Biden and his administration to re-calibrate and make some needed improvements going forward.

  57. 57.

    zhena gogolia

    Well, at least I don’t have to cancel Vanity Fair. Molly Jong-Fast saves the day.

  58. 58.

    Eyeroller

    @delphinium: ​Trump’s Gish galloping and bizarre ramblings and lies were just accepted as “well, that’s Trump!” but Biden’s loss of focus for the first 20 minutes (he was much better after that but we never hear about that) and raspy voice were “OMG HE IS DYING.” It drives me insane.

  59. 59.

    Starfish

    @Jack Mackerel: I don’t trust any of y’all to vote for Kamala so Biden should run and get into office, pass the Dark Brandon agenda, and then peace out and leave it to Kamala while he goes and drives cute little sports cars.

  61. 61.

    Starfish

    @Elizabelle: Moses did the racist urban planning of NYC where low bridges were built so people on busses could not go to the beach.

  62. 62.

    Ladyraxterinok

    Have any of you read James Thurber’s story “The Day the Dam Broke”?

    A few people start running, and then more and more people start running along with them and shouting as loudly as possible “the damage brok!!”

    Read the story to see how the mass panic ends

    I thought of this story as I’ve read the ever more hysterical freak-out by pundits and some national democrats

    To read “The Day the Dam Broke” online, see fadedpage.com listing for Thurber’s book Thurber Carnival and find the story in the table of contents

  63. 63.

    moonbat

    Thank you, AL!!

    Of all the people I have missed since I deleted my Twitter account Propane Jane and Qondi are right at the top of the list. Thanks for reminding me of how PJ brings the flamethrower of facts to all the whiny spitball flickers. lol

    And thank GAWD Biden/Harris came out with a definitive statement. It won’t stop the FTFNYT but it hopefully will tamp down the panic on our side.

  64. 64.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @MikefromArlington: I’d have palak paneer with Kamala.

    There was a really adorable video in 2020 with Kamala showing up in Mindy Kaling’s kitchen and cooking Indian food with her. I never get tired of watching that.

    In news about TFG, here’s a commentary by Michael Popok of Meidas Touch that made me feel a lot better about the wheels of justice. The net effect of that appalling ruling from the Supremes is that Judge Chutkin is going to be having an evidentiary hearing soon, well before the election, in which all the evidence against TFG will be trotted out in a very public forum. The link is time-tagged to Popok’s summary at the end.

  65. 65.

    delphinium

    @Eyeroller: Yeah, nothing wrong with criticizing Biden/Dems when warranted but we really need to keep the focus on Trump and the awful Supreme Court rulings. That is one of the reasons I really enjoy seeing some of our representatives giving it right back to the GOP during house hearings-bring the fight rather than letting their their crap go unchallenged.

  66. 66.

    xephyr

    @cmorenc: As you say. Whatever it takes to beat TFG is all I care about. If Biden can do it, then fine, but his team better have a damn good plan because there’s a lot of ground to make up and the clock is ticking. We all know what the stakes are and there won’t be any do-overs.

  70. 70.

    delphinium

    @cmorenc: ​
    You know who else had a bad debate? Trump. Guess which one repulsed ‘normies’ (and people who pay attention) more. Hint: It wasn’t Biden’s performance.
    Media is not ‘the voters’.

  73. 73.

    MagdaInBlack

    @delphinium: Lotta “normies” had never had the full “Trump Experience” til they watched the debate. They’d only seen news clips.

  75. 75.

    eclare

    Warnock is so good, and I’m so glad this blog supported him.  Didn’t he have to win something like three elections in two years, between primaries and runoff?  Kudos to the voters in GA who did not quit.  They made a difference.

  82. 82.

    Tazj

    Daily Beast has a video of Trump in a golf cart talking about the debate. Calls Biden “a broken- down pathetic pile of crap.” He calls Kamala Harris “pathetic” . Of course he addresses her only by her first name. He then praises Putin for his fierceness.

    This is the monster people are gravitating towards now? Assholes.

  83. 83.

    BeautifulPlumage

    I agree with al of the post and almost all of comments.

    I also think FTFNYT really overplayed this.

  84. 84.

    Chris

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    Never read it, but as luck would have it, I chose the last week or so to watch National Geographic’s three-parter on the white wolves of Ellesmere Island.

    A point they make is that when it comes to hunting, so long as the musk oxen stick to the rest of the herd, there’s not much the wolves can do. The only way they can get a kill is by breaking someone off from the herd, preferably someone old, young, or sick. If the herd stampedes, though, all bets are off. So unless the wolves are lucky enough to find a loner, that’s what they have to try and provoke.

    Why did this seem unpleasantly relevant? … oh, no reason.

  86. 86.

    Bill Arnold

    @Eyeroller:

    Trump’s Gish galloping and bizarre ramblings and lies were just accepted as “well, that’s Trump!”

    Trump’s Gish Gallop and sixth-grade vocabulary and sentence structures were disqualifying. The lies in particular literally angered me, and I work hard to avoid anger.
    Anyone attacking Biden and not more vigorously attacking Trump (even if in other texts or venues) is showing strong tells that they are a GOP operative, IMO. (Witting or unwitting.)
    Attacks on Trump will have value even if for some reason Biden drops out. (They wouldn’t have much value if Trump drops out, admittedly.)
    Attacks on Trump’s VP pick will also have value, since his VP pick may have to take over from a dysfunctionally senile Trump.

  89. 89.

    RaflW

    @CaseyL: I wouldn’t trust Jeffry Goldberg with $12 a year. In fact I dropped my sub to his rag six months ago.

    There’s a few individual writers at the Atlantic I’d want to read, but JGs incentives and priors are all too clearly anti-Dem.

  90. 90.

    Scout211

    After the meeting with the Dem governors:

    Biden wins crucial support of Democratic governors to continue campaign: ‘We’re going to have his back’

    Tim Walz, the Minnesota governor, said:

    We, like many Americans, are worried because the threat of a Trump presidency is not theoretical for governors … We are all looking for the path to win … He has had our backs through Covid, through all of the recovery … The governors have his back … A path to victory in November is the number one priority.

    Wes Moore, governor of Maryland, said:

    We were honest about the feedback we’re getting … and the concerns we’re hearing from people … We said we would stand with him … we’re going to have his back … the results we’ve been able to see under this administration have been undeniable … We’re hopeful for the future … We know as we’re standing right here that we’re behind. But we also know that path to be able to make sure we can pull ahead in November is real.

    Kathy Hochul, governor of New York, said:

    President Joe Biden is in it to win it, and all of us said we pledged our support to him because the stakes could not be higher … We feel very confident in his abilities.

    Gavin Newsom, California governor:


    Gavin Newsom, the California governor, another high-profile Democrat known for his presidential ambitions, has also issued a short message of support for Biden after meeting with him at the White House:

    I heard three words from the President tonight — he’s all in. And so am I. @JoeBiden’s had our back. Now it’s time to have his.

    Thank you, Governors!

  91. 91.

    Frank Wilhoit

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: ​
      Someone elsewhere said that the SCOTUS opinion specifically forbad that evidentiary hearing. I’m afraid I don’t remember who or where. The phrase “evidentiary immunity” was referenced as being in the opinion — oxymoron though it sounds.

  93. 93.

    Tazj

    @Tazj: I’m hoping this video hurts him in some way. Some people were taking note of how quiet Trump has been. He can never keep his big mouth shut.

  96. 96.

    3Sice

    He waited until the pre-debate data cleared the rolling averages. There was no point in waiting until Friday (sorry George) and shitting on the Glorious Fourth.

    The unindicted co-conspirators cutting the VP out of any deal speaks for itself.

    As to the rest of it…

    It’s 106 miles to Chicago. We’ve got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it’s dark….. and we’re wearing sunglasses.

    Hit it.

  97. 97.

    gene108

    @cmorenc:

    No matter how hard we reaffirm our belief in Joe and his vast virtues, it’s not going to work unless he can pull off recasting normie voter’s shaky impression of him from the debate. Not going to be easy with the media feeding the frenzy.

    This is my biggest concern.

    If Joe could project his voice like he did in the 2020 campaign ad addressing the Christian conference, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    I do think all the calls for Biden to step down will do serious damage. Normies are not enthusiastic about this election.

    The Democrats asking him to step down just adds to normies doubts.

    I wish Democrats addressed the debate like Sen. Warnock did.

    Hammer Trump and keep hammering Trump. He’s not popular outside his base and he has a lot of negatives people dislike when it’s pointed out to them.

  98. 98.

    Scout211

    @schrodingers_cat: Apparently Trump is considering Flynn as a VP candidate.

    If only that were true! What an amazing amount of military, domestic and international crimes Kamala Harris’ team could expose if Flynn were on the ticket.

    Trump may want him, but his campaign team would never let him on the ticket.  They actually are a competent team this time.  And they likely have told him to shut up right now and not draw any attention away from the Biden media frenzy.  The theory is that’s why they are delaying the VP announcement.  It would draw attention away from the Biden media attention.

  99. 99.

    raven

    There is no such thing as “over and out”. It’s either “over” or “out”.

  100. 100.

    Chet Murthy

    @Frank Wilhoit: This is consistent with what I read: evidence from official acts of a President is not admissible in trials against that President (or something like that).  It was laser-focused on the NYS hush money trial, where TCFG signed the checks in the WH as President.  B/c sure, it’s not an official act, but then, that needs to be adjudicated.

    FUCK!  FUCK!  FUCK!  Joe should just fucking arrest the bastard, send him to FUCKING GITMO. End the fucking farce!  He’s got immunity for all official acts, after all!

    OK, I’m all better now (not).

  101. 101.

    Mousebumples

    @H.E.Wolf: good news, HE Wolf! I got an email today that they’re putting me in touch with a candidate to help with her campaign.

    And my complaining in a politically active Facebook group got me a message from  the leader of the national Postcard program for the Biden Harris Grassroots Coaliton. She’s ironically enough, super close to me geographically, but apparently they’re working with states across the country. 

    I’m out of town for the holiday weekend, so not near my postcarding supplies, but I feel reinvigorated for the fight ahead.

  102. 102.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @3Sice:

    He waited until the pre-debate data cleared the rolling averages. There was no point in waiting until Friday (sorry George) and shitting on the Glorious Fourth.

    Is this referring to Biden saying he’s not stepping away? Are the polling averages taking the debate into account now? From what I understand they haven’t budged much

  103. 103.

    catclub

    @gene108: Hammer Trump and keep hammering Trump. He’s not popular outside his base and he has a lot of negatives people dislike when it’s pointed out to them.

     

    Yes. Biden loves the US. Trump loves himself.  Which do you want serving as president?

  104. 104.

    Timill

    @Frank Wilhoit: AIUI (not being a lawyer) if Biden pardons someone (being a core function of the Presidency), you can’t ask why. And you have to ignore the $100M campaign donation…

    But if Biden does something (say, to disrupt the counting of EVs) you can inquire as to whether that was a core function or not.

  105. 105.

    206inKY

    @Mike in Pasadena: This was nothing like Obama’s debate and really not even a debate issue. Trump was unhinged but still somehow faded into the background, since Biden’s cognitive impairment was impossible to ignore. There’s no averting our eyes from the fact that 75% of the country now says he is too old, and he’s even slipping in New Mexico.

    I have no doubt Harris will be the nominee since too much damning corroborating information has already come out. Biden literally stated that he was falling asleep. This is not even a campaign issue—Kamala very well might be president soon if Biden’s decline is as rapid as it appears. I believe Harris is being massively underestimated and will both crush Trump and be a great president.

    If Biden steps down, I just hope everyone can get their shit together and put all their energy toward electing Harris.

    The name-calling of anyone calling for a change of course as “bed-wetters” and “trolls” appears to have been endorsed by most of the community here. Even Pod Save America is apparently a pawn of fascism now for entertaining open discussion of the issue. I hope there will be some sort of reconciliation between the camps when Kamala is our candidate.

    I think the core conflict is the question of whether 1) Biden just had a bad night that doesn’t reflect his mental capacity, or 2) Biden is actually truly experiencing early-stage dementia.

    The latter was so long the subject of lurid attacks that it’s easy to confuse the agents of hatred with people who feel sick to their stomachs about their growing body of evidence suggesting that it’s true.

  107. 107.

    Jay

    Wow, haven’t seen so many new bedwetters, vatnicks, tankies and ruZZian trolls on BJ since 2016.

    I hope the pie filter holds up.

  110. 110.

    Geminid

    @Ladyraxterinok: I was reminded of the gloomy letter Congressman Elihu Washburn sent Abraham Lincoln October 17, 1864. It was 2 weeks before the election and Washburn was convinced Lincoln would lose. Lincoln wrote “Stampeded” on the envelope and handed it to his secretary.

    This is not in reference to rank-and-file Democrats- including those here- who worry intensely about the debate and its consequences. I may see the situation differently, but we’re all different and I think people are as entitled to be as worried as I am confident.

    But wow! Was that ever a stampede by media elites. They were like a herd of horses panicked by a group of mountain lion, and a lot of their Party-adjacent peers and sources bolted with them.

    So it’s good to see someone like Propane Jane who understands why the symbol of the Democratic Party is the Donkey, and not the Horse. Unlike their swift-footed cousins, Donkeys hold their ground, especially against a pack of mangy coyotes like the one led by Donald Trump. Donkeys don’t run from coyotes; they mangle them with their teeth and smash them with their hooves until the coyotes run from them.

  111. 111.

    H.E.Wolf

    @eclare: ​
    @H.E.Wolf: [re: Senator Bae]
    Hahaha….wish he were my senator!

     I wrote GOTV postcards for all of his campaigns, so even though I’m nowhere near GA, I kind of feel like he IS my senator! :)

  112. 112.

    SomeRandomGuy

    Well, given the high quality of the candidate the Republicans are running, I can understand people being worried about Biden having a bad night at a timed speaking competition, given that he’s never had trouble speaking extemporaneously *ever* in the past.

    That said: *THINKING* about maybe Biden dropping out, *BEFORE ANY POLLS SHOW SERIOUS DAMAGE*, would just allow Republicans to ask “what did Camel-a know, and when did she know it, letting senile Joe stay in command?”

    They’re already doing that. I mean, you know that, right? Even if you were a complete fucking moron about politics in the US, you’d know that Republicans always go for the throat, as viciously as possible, because they just don’t care about the truth. If they accidentally make a true accusation, that’s good luck, but they don’t care.

    Me, I think it’s better to prove that Biden is fine, rather than panic and act like the Republicans are ever right about anything. We should, you know, be acting like, “well, I know that Comer is insisting that water is wet, but given his evidence free impeachment efforts, I’m not trusting him.”

    Also: any “senior Democratic” anyone who suggests Biden might be anything other than the new coming of Jesus Christ should be kicked in the nuts. I don’t care if they’re walnuts, almonds, or even flippin’ *macadamia* nuts… what? What did you *think* I meant?

  113. 113.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Mousebumples: ​good news, HE Wolf! I got an email today that they’re putting me in touch with a candidate to help with her campaign.
    [lots of other good news, re: getting involved]
    … I feel reinvigorated for the fight ahead.

     This is great news! These folks are going to be so, so glad that you’re volunteering with them. As in, gobsmacked that they have such a bada** on board. :-)

  116. 116.

    gene108

    @Eyeroller:

    Trump’s Gish galloping and bizarre ramblings and lies were just accepted as “well, that’s Trump!”

    Trump was very forceful in telling his lies. You can hear the passion in his voice about his concern that 18 million people are crossing the southern border (in a year? A day? A month?) and murdering hundreds of thousands of Americans.

    I’m not being sarcastic. I think this is the basis to the media’s narrative on the debate.

    I am mad at the Biden campaign for pushing for this debate and fucking it up so badly. I don’t think Biden can recover from this. The media narrative is set and will be repeated endlessly from now until November, unless Democrats remind people of how awful a human being Trump is.

    In 2020, Trump was President and his awfulness was on display constantly.

  118. 118.

    Another Scott

    @Geminid:

    Phys.org – Wild donkeys dig wells (from April 2021):

    […]

    They found that wells dug by the “equids” to depths of up to six feet (two meters) increased water availability for many native desert species, and decreased the distances between important water sources during dry periods.

    The wells were especially important during the hottest and driest parts of summer, when they provided the only available water source at some sites.

    Species that flocked to the equid-engineered wells and were caught on camera included mule deers, bobcats, Woodhouse’s scrub jay and javelinas

    Lundgren said the horses and donkeys acted as “buffers” against the extreme variability of desert streams from year to year.

    “The donkey wells kept water in the system. And these features were used by pretty much every species you could picture, including some surprising ones like black bears, that we didn’t expect to see in the desert,” he said.

    Other species that flocked to the wells and were caught on camera included mule deer, bobcats, Woodhouse’s scrub jay and javelinas.

    The team even spotted some river tree species sprouting from abandoned wells, indicating they also serve a role as plant nurseries.

    […]

    Yeah, the donkey is a great mascot for Democrats, for lots of reasons.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  119. 119.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @206inKY: This was nothing like Obama’s debate and really not even a debate issue. Trump was unhinged but still somehow faded into the background, since Biden’s cognitive impairment was impossible to ignore.

    Please fornicate, while moving through the air, at a doughnut that is in motion consist of linear motion and angular momentum.

    (I hope people don’t think that’s as *mean* as “take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut, you fucking moron.”)

    Biden showed *no* signs of cognitive decline. He showed signs of a stutter in one answer, and he had “old man cooties” which, apparently, activates your bigotry toward the elderly – insisting anything that you don’t like to look at is a sign of decline.

    I despise the few atoms of a distant planet, that are kept in relative orbit by the additional mass and gravitational effects, caused by the continued existence of your body, due to their relationship to you. Also: you’re ugly. And your mother dresses you funny.

  120. 120.

    xephyr

    @206inKY: Thank-you. If there isn’t room for expression of justifiable concerns then we have a fear of honesty problem. If Joe is the guy, then I’m behind him all the way. If it’s Harris, then I’m behind her all the way. Whatever it takes to bring down the monster.

  121. 121.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    @zhena gogolia:

    I smell something rotten and fishy. Lots of new nyms coming out of the woodwork to express their concerns. Same thing as in 2020, 2016, 2012 and 2008.

    The smell of rat copulation fills the summer air. With an overtone of rotten mackerel.

  122. 122.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @gene108: I am mad at the Biden campaign for pushing for this debate and fucking it up so badly.

    Some day, you will confidently make a prediction, realize you fucked up, and realize you did the *exact* same thing you’re so angry about. Don’t worry: you’ll do it again. And again. And again. And again.

    Still: let’s harsh on the good guys for a bit – no way the Republicans would pick up on that and try to use it, right?

  128. 128.

    eclare

    @NotMax:

    Hahaha…you think I would share?

    Just watching an old rom com and sipping a vodka tonic while a fan blows on me trying to stay cool.

  131. 131.

    wjca

    @delphinium: You know who else had a bad debate? Trump. Guess which one repulsed ‘normies’ (and people who pay attention) more. Hint: It wasn’t Biden’s performance. 

    This.  It needs to be repeated over and over.

  132. 132.

    Another Scott

    Possibly relevant old song: Matthew Sweet – Smog Moon (4:13)

    There’s a smog moon, in the amber sky, wavering and burning like a golden lie.
    I fell so far, I didn’t think I’d make it back
    We are all made, as an afterthought,
    Destined to believe that we are what we are not
    I’m afraid, but I don’t need to tell you that

    There’s a smog moon coming I can always feel it
    The cartoon trees cannot conceal it
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like it is white
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like

    There’s a lost man, with a bitter soul, Only for a moment,
    Did life make him whole
    And while he was, he thought he was invincible

    There’s a smog moon coming I can always feel it
    The cartoon trees cannot conceal it
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like it is white
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like it is white

    They’re not your words, but you’re reciting the lines
    You don’t mean a thing, but you exist in their minds
    How does it feel, when they have turned out the lights?
    ‘Cause you know they sooner would get rid of you, than fight.

    And the dark night, has the strongest pull
    We both know that staying young, can take its toll
    Are you afraid of finding out you’re over that

    There’s a smog moon coming I can always feel it
    The cartoon trees cannot conceal it
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like it is white
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like it is white
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like it is white
    When it’s high up in the sky, it almost looks like

    Keep up the good fight, everyone. Don’t let the monsters win.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  133. 133.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @cmorenc:

    recasting normie voter’s shaky impression of him from the debate.

    Assumes facts not in evidence. Show me actual evidence normies feel that way — and no the fact that pundits keep saying it doesn’t count.

  134. 134.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @Frank Wilhoit: Republicans have been overstating the case by quite a bit. For example, they’re saying that Trump’s public tweets can’t be used as evidence. Not true – it said private notes and advisors, not public tweets.

    That said: they’ve always tried to try Trump cases in the media first and foremost, and, of course, they have to tell the SCOTUS what decisions they expect them to reach, so the Republican judges can invent a new doctrine to cover it.

  137. 137.

    3Sice

    Snarking on incontinence is unnecessary. Except for the human dumpster.

    Is WATB okay?

  139. 139.

    Jackie

    Hot video via The Daily Beast:

    Donald Trump delivered a brutal assessment of Joe Biden’s performance against him in last week’s presidential debate, calling the president a “broken-down pile of crap” teetering on the verge of “quitting the race” in a video provided by a source to The Daily Beast.

    “He just quit, you know—he’s quitting the race,” Trump says, sitting in a golf cart. “I got him out of the—and that means we have Kamala.”

    It was not immediately clear where or when exactly the footage had been covertly filmed.

    In the video, the former president asks the person holding the camera what they thought of his own debate performance. As he’s told he did “fantastic” and “amazing,” Trump blusters on flatly, “Look at that old, broken down pile of crap.

    “It’s a bad guy,” he says, seemingly referring to Biden. After announcing that the president is quitting and handing the baton to Kamala Harris, Trump continues, “I think she’s gonna be better” as an opponent.

    “She’s so bad. She’s so pathetic,” he adds, plucking at his gloves, then appears to say, “She’s so fucking bad.”

    Trump then switches back to Biden, asking, “Can you imagine that guy dealing with Putin? And the president of China—who’s a fierce person. He’s a fierce man, very tough guy. And they see him.”

    Before driving off, the former president reiterates, “But they just announced he’s probably quitting. Just keep knocking him out, huh?”

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-caught-on-video-claiming-broken-down-joe-biden-has-quit-its-kamala

    Much more at the link – including the video.

  140. 140.

    NotMax

    @delphinium

    Neighbor next door always has a yard party and sets off what must be over a thousand dollars worth of explosives. Besides the noise and roiling clouds of smoke (with accompanying too loud music), the next time I mow after that have to first eyeball the entire property, step by step, bending over to pick up and discard whatever dropped or was blown over this way from their antics.

    Much mental invective directed their way.

  141. 141.

    Mousebumples

    @H.E.Wolf: awww, thanks! And I’m sure your Dem office feels the same!

    I’m here to chew him gum and kick ass… And I’m all out of gum.

  142. 142.

    Geminid

    @3Sice: Yes, July 3rd was the day Lee’s troops attacked Cemetery Ridge for the second time. He had already ordered them to attack Round Top, Little Round Top, Cemetary Hill and Culp’s Hill twice.

    Lee at Gettysburg:

       “Keep attacking uphill, me boys!”

  143. 143.

    Mousebumples

    @eclare: No pups – just little people – but another reason to be spending the 4th of July weekend with my parents who live in the country w/ a 1/4 mile long driveway and neighbors “over that hill.”

    There is a multitude of Trump signs across the street though. Sigh.

  144. 144.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @NotMax: That’s cool, and I’d never heard it. Thanks!

    As a return: “let’s FELLATE this portable popsicle purveyance!”

    (…blow this popsicle stand)

  145. 145.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @gene108: The pundits are only concerned with the horse race, political theater, and vibes — not the stakes

    Brcause if they actually gave a damn about the latter we’d have wall to wall coverage of Project 2025 and Trump’s plans for personal vengeance. But hey, the leopards will never eat their faces, amirite.

  148. 148.

    delphinium

    @schrodingers_cat: Too bad, Biden says he’s staying in. It’s really something watching all these folks go into hysterics about this and yet not a peep about telling Trump to step aside.

  150. 150.

    wjca

    @Tazj: Some people were taking note of how quiet Trump has been. He can never keep his big mouth shut.

    He hasn’t been quiet.  He’s been being ignored — all the focus being on Biden’s performance, you know.  And it’s been irritating (OK, infuriating) him to not be the center of attention.

  152. 152.

    NotMax

    @Tazj

    Repeated from downstairs.

    FWIW, he’s been Pravda-ing like crazy*, including such items as live televising of military tribunals against the membership of the J6 committee. And whining the debate coverage has turned to focus on Biden rather than it’s rightful place praising God’s Gift to Mankind.

    *Yes, even crazier than usual.

  154. 154.

    steve g

    This was a good post, thanks for that.

    People need to decide if they will vote for Biden if he is still the nominee. If the answer is no, I’m not sure what kind of voter they are. If they think Trump would be better than Biden, they are ,shall I say, very different from me.

    The only other question is do they think some other Dem candidate would win more votes than Biden will. I suppose it is possible but not very likely. Harris would lose some voters who don’t want a woman. Other candidates would lose a lot of black voters who have no basis on which to trust them. Biden gets votes from all of them, which is how and why he won the primary 4 years ago.

  155. 155.

    Geminid

    @wjca: Trump’s stupid comment about “Black Job” was angered a lot of peoole, and they aren’t letting it rest. This could be a good line of attack going forward. If he’s pushed enough Trump might try to explain it.

    Trump’s remarks on Ukraine could also come back to bite him. Any serious supporter of Ukraine would see that Trump essentially ran up the white flag. This could be a deal-breaker for some Republicans and Independents who might otherwise vote for a Republican candidate. There may not be a whole lot of Republican Ukraine Hawks, but Trump can’t afford to lose many reliable voters at all, I think.

  156. 156.

    RaflW

    My brother and his brother in law were panic texting today. I did what I could to stay fairly calm and say the equivalent of “head down, keep going, it’s months away” but these are people who were mildly Republican voters till about nine years ago. They don’t have 38 years of slogging along in the Dem trenches.

    I think they get it, they certainly aren’t gonna vote for Trump. But they’re still (g.d. NYT poll) freaking out because they’re now convinced people neither they nor I know will change their votes. It’s a pain in the ass. I just want to keep working, not having to talk relatives off the ledge. But I guess that is part of the work.

  158. 158.

    Matt McIrvin

    @jimmiraybob: This is why I think most of the “concern about Biden’s age” is really fear of Kamala Harris becoming President. Sometimes it’s overt.

    And it’s completely irrational. Kamala Harris would be a good President. A lot of the “imagine her handling the Cuban Missile Crisis” crap is the same stuff they said about Hillary Clinton, which makes me think it’s more sexism than anything else, though there’s probably a lot of racism in there too.

  159. 159.

    Matt McIrvin

    @steve g: I see a lot of theorizing about various people who they say poll better against Trump in some survey question than Biden does. I guarantee you, the moment that person got swapped in as the actual candidate, the media destruction machine would get to work and find out what’s horribly wrong with them, and the poll numbers would revert.

  160. 160.

    TEL

    It’s telling that the one person I know IRL who has decided what they saw at the debate disqualifies Biden is a very privileged liberal white woman for whom (other than lower taxes) Trump getting elected will have very little direct effect. She thought I was like her (I am a white woman, but my history is quite different), which is why she brought it up to me – she was shocked that I disagreed. I asked her what happens next in her little thought experiment and she didn’t have an answer. She threw out the name Gavin Newsom because she thought that would make her plan OK with me. I told her it was interesting that Kamala Harris didn’t occur to her, then asked her if she looked into the history of what happens if the incumbent is replaced 4 months before the election. She didn’t have any idea at all – hadn’t even bothered to think about that. Because it’s all a thought experiment to her that won’t actually affect her life.

    I’m seeing this pattern far too much – most of the folks even here at BJ who are saying we should seriously consider replacing Biden because of the debate are not thinking about the chaos and the guaranteed election loss that would happen when you disenfranchise your core primary voters. Fundraising, campaign infrastructure, messaging – all of that would be at risk or gone. And don’t even get me started on the fractures that would occur inside the democratic party because of it. You think Bernie Sanders’ divisiveness (which I see still can cause problems) was bad – Biden being pushed out would be much much much worse. Being able to bring the party together is a necessary part of running for president. Who exactly is this magical candidate who would be able to do this? Seriously, what happens next?

  161. 161.

    Gretchen

    It seems that our new dog isn’t one that hates fireworks. The nearby country club had a big fireworks display and he nearly slept through it. Feeling lucky.

    And yes, lots of new names tonight. I hadn’t used the pie filter in so long I didn’t remember how to use it, but it got quite a workout tonight.

  162. 162.

    Gretchen

    @Matt McIrvin: That’s the thing that worries me most about a Harris candidacy: racists lost their minds over Obama, misogynists lost their minds over Hillary. They’d both lose their minds over a black woman.

    I think she’s the most prepared VP ever. Most presidents are worried about being usurped by the VP and hold them at a distance. Biden was aware that he’s old and made sure to include her in everything so she’d be ready to take over if needed.

  163. 163.

    steve g

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Ah, yes, the magical candidates who would get more votes than Biden running against Trump, but would lose to Biden in a primary. If they could beat Biden in a primary, why didn’t then run? The thing is, the primary voters are also general voters. There are some who only vote in the general, but if you can’t win the primary, you usually can’t win the general. You are unlikely to do better in the general than Biden can do.

  164. 164.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @NotMax: Trust me, he’s right folks. There I was, “man, this chewing gum tastes like… oh, DAMN IT, time to go home when you can’t tell the difference.”

  166. 166.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, … Phys.org:

    […]

    To test this, Littrell and colleagues polled 2,001 American adults in 2022, about 30% of whom responded “Yes” to owning or having owned crypto. Participants reported demographic information and other responses revealing their political, psychological, and social traits.

    The researchers conducted several bivariate (two-variable) correlational analyses, which measured how strongly crypto ownership is associated with other variables individually, as well as a multivariate (multi-variable) regression analysis, which attempts to identify the variables that are most important for predicting cryptocurrency ownership.

    The correlational analyses showed that crypto ownership is associated with belief in conspiracy theories, support of political extremism, identification with non-left-right political orientations (e.g., Christian nationalism), and the “Dark Tetrad” of personality traits (narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism).

    The more holistic analysis revealed which self-reported qualities are most likely to predict crypto ownership, the most strongly associated factor being a reliance on fringe social media sources for news. Other strongly associated characteristics included maleness, argumentativeness, higher income, and feelings of victimhood.

    Across all survey data, crypto owners reported diverse political orientations and identities with a mix of left and right leanings.

    The researchers acknowledge that the correlations they identified are limited by their sample of participants and the fact that they self-reported their characteristics, and cannot be interpreted as causal. Because of the strong correlation between social media and crypto ownership, they encourage future research into the influence of specific media or rhetoric on crypto ownership.

    The authors add, “Though our results certainly do not apply to every crypto user out there, on average, we found that crypto investment and ownership tends to appeal to people who are more argumentative, anti-authoritarian, and prefer to get their news from non-mainstream social media sites.

    Points to a PLoS ONE article.

    They should do a similar study of the goldbugs. There’s a reason by Limbaugh and FoxNews and TCFFG and … are always hawking gold.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  168. 168.

    Matt McIrvin

    @steve g: Well, the argument is that some party cabal convinced them not to run to “clear the field”.

    I think that’s not so far from the truth except you don’t need a cabal: the people who are often mentioned, like Pete Buttigieg and Gavin Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer, didn’t run for President because they accepted the conventional calculus that when your party has an incumbent President who is eligible to be reelected, you run with the incumbent President. Challenging that is usually taken as an indication that you think your own party has failed, and if so, why should your party even win the Presidency? Serious primary challenges to an incumbent President usually happen in years when you’re all going to lose.

    Now, there’s a counterargument that that’s excessively rigid thinking in a situation where there’s a personal health- or age-related reason the incumbent President shouldn’t run again. But it’s how it’s worked at least for the whole 20th century, including situations where the President was on death’s door, which Joe Biden is not.

  169. 169.

    Chris

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Remember when the whole selling point for Biden was that after Obama, Hillary, and Sanders, we needed a reassuringly old white guy with a long record of moderate politics who’d be the picture of normalcy?  Because it was too important and we couldn’t afford to lose any panicky white squishes?  And yet here we are four years later and somehow, Biden also has something horribly wrong with him.

    People make fun of “I’ll vote for a woman, just not THAT woman!”  They really should just say “I’ll vote for a Democrat, just not THAT Democrat!”  That’s what it’s come to.  If we keep allowing the media to tell us which of our candidates are presentable, we’re fucked: there isn’t a single candidate that they wouldn’t be able to find something wrong with.

  170. 170.

    Chris

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Now, there’s a counterargument that that’s excessively rigid thinking in a situation where there’s a personal health- or age-related reason the incumbent President shouldn’t run again. But it’s how it’s worked at least for the whole 20th century, including situations where the President was on death’s door, which Joe Biden is not.

    The entire narrative about Biden’s reelection campaign, for four years, has been that what’s been utterly normal behavior for every president from both parties in modern history is somehow shockingly aberrant behavior when Joe Biden does it.  As you say, you could argue that we should have changed things up in this case, but let’s be very clear that it would, in fact, have been an enormous change from accepted best practices, one that would send us into largely uncharted waters.  And we might be able to navigate through those waters, but anybody who promises you that with any confidence is lying his ass off, especially since the last two times we sent a ship through them, it sank without a trace.

  171. 171.

    Jackie

    @Mike E:

    Most of the BJ peeps saying replace are chaos agents in my pie filter.

    Fixed for truth. Up until the last few days, ONE poster has been in solitary confinement. Now he’s just one of several. Sad.

  172. 172.

    Jackie

    Heads up: New time slated for Joe’s interview with ABC.

    President Biden’s interview with ABC News will air in its entirety as a primetime special, Friday, July 5, at 8:00 p.m. ET.

    ABC News was originally planning to air just a clip of the Biden interview on Friday evening, then televise other parts over the weekend.

    Joe Biden’s interview with George Stephanopolous, intended to jumpstart a comeback for the embattled president, will last as little as 15 minutes, the Daily Beast reports.

    The brief nature of the interview came despite reports, including by the Associated Press, describing it as an “extended” encounter between the two men.

    Not quite sure if this is good or not so good news.

  176. 176.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Jackie:

    I hope it’s good news

    ETA: If the interview was so bad, depending on when it was done, you’d think the Dem governors would not have gotten behind him the way they did today

  177. 177.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Jackie:

    Reading into the article gives a not-so alarming answer:

    While there is no agreement between ABC News and the White House on exactly how long Biden spends with the veteran interviewer, the logistics of conducting it during campaign stops could limit it severely. Senior network figures were involved in calls Wednesday to prepare questions for the shortest time in case attempts to speak with the president for longer failed.

    It sounds like a case of logistics. The article is odd, it even notes that 20 minutes for a news network interview is a normal time for a president, yet goes on about how many interviews, press conferences, etc Biden has given since in office compared to other past presidents, such as Reagan, Obama, and Trump

    ETA: And it mentions “top Democrats” are calling for Biden to step down, yet doesn’t name them. It comes across as slanted. I don’t remember the Daily Beast reading like the NYT

  178. 178.

    artem1s

    @Jackie: ​ 

    “She’s so bad. She’s so pathetic,” he adds, plucking at his gloves, then appears to say, “She’s so fucking bad.”

    Shades of 42%? Keep braying you asshole.

  180. 180.

    xephyr

    It’s cute how some people get freaked out when they start to imagine someone might not be in lockstep with the prevailing opinion. I always thought that was a staple of the political right, but then again, we’re a large tent eh? I comment only occasionally, but have been here from the beginning, so don’t worry, I’m not a spy, a “new nym”, or a “chaos agent”. I’m a yellow dog Democrat and have been one for over 50 years. The only thing that might change that is if we ever get ranked voting.

  181. 181.

    Slightly_peeved

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    It sounds like the reason they might have limited time is because President Biden will be out talking to people, which seems to be a pretty good way of dispelling those concerns as well.

  183. 183.

    Chris Johnson

    @gene108: Or unless Trump, so famously coherent and rational, reminds people of how much of a fucking nightmare he is.

    Or unless Trump does this and then the same media doing this, stuck defending the indefensible, reveal how deeply in the tank they are for deeply unpopular things, to the point that everybody confronting them calls out their complicity like that one guy did, and it becomes a meme.

    There’s kind of a LOT of time for things to go terribly wrong for fascists stuck springing their October surprise early.

    And there’s kind of a lot of time for more horrible shit to come out about the fascists, especially since they are going full mask off VERY early here.

    And nothing is going to stop them because the real bad actors are not here to make them WIN, the real bad actors (Russia) are here to make us fight each other. To Russia, this is all going swimmingly, and it’s fine if Biden/Harris wins as long as everyone is throwing bombs.

  184. 184.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Chris: What I see IRL is a whole lot of people who absolutely ARE going to vote for Biden, but will spend the entire time between now and November talking him down, and don’t seem to see that as having a cost.

    I’ve been mostly shutting up about the subject because I’m deathly terrified of all this. It feels to me like a malign narrative, an anti-pattern, aimed at putting Trump in the White House has taken over, not just in the media but in the minds of people who don’t want it to happen, and if the Democrats did switch to another candidate the narrative would just switch to tearing down that candidate. It’s what happened in 2016 and in the 1980s and in every year the Republicans won.

  185. 185.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Matt McIrvin:

    What I see IRL is a whole lot of people who absolutely ARE going to vote for Biden, but will spend the entire time between now and November talking him down, and don’t seem to see that as having a cost.

    Exactly. Or expecting things to happen instantaneously in terms of campaign operations and then using the lack of that as another reason to spend more time talking him down.

  186. 186.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Jackie:

    Trump then switches back to Biden, asking, “Can you imagine that guy dealing with Putin? And the president of China—who’s a fierce person. He’s a fierce man, very tough guy. And they see him.”

    America needs a leader who can fluff them HARD, like Donald Trump!

  187. 187.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Another Scott: As a social phenomenon, it’s always seemed to me that cryptocurrency is just goldbuggery with a high-tech gloss. One of the tells is the way Bitcoin, the OG cryptocurrency, was intentionally designed to be deflationary, with a limited and declining supply and an increasingly costly “mining” process to extract it. These are properties that goldbugs value in a currency. They want the limits on supply to be independent of human agency because they fear a conspiracy manipulating the supply for malign ends.

  188. 188.

    Matt McIrvin

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: I mean, as a good liberal even I read what I’m typing here and hear my inner LGM poster snarking “clap harder for Tinkerbell!” You’ve got to be willing to tear down your own side or you’re a brainwashed idiot, right?

  189. 189.

    Chris

    @Matt McIrvin:

    @Chris: What I see IRL is a whole lot of people who absolutely ARE going to vote for Biden, but will spend the entire time between now and November talking him down, and don’t seem to see that as having a cost.

    Just got off the phone with my dad, who appears all set to be doing exactly that.

    It really is exactly like the New York Times, isn’t it?  They give an entire year of “HILLARY’S EMAILS DARK CLOUDS ON THE HORIZON!” front page articles above the fold, but then cap it off with one Hillary Clinton endorsement on page 19, so don’t you dare blame them for Trump.

  190. 190.

    Chris

    @Matt McIrvin:

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: I mean, as a good liberal even I read what I’m typing here and hear my inner LGM poster snarking “clap harder for Tinkerbell!” You’ve got to be willing to tear down your own side or you’re a brainwashed idiot, right?

    That’s pretty much the impulse the New York Times and the Republican Party (I repeat myself) have weaponized against us for several decades.  Let’s also admit that it’s as much about flattering people’s vanity as their intellectual honesty.  It’s not just “I don’t want to be a brainwashed idiot,” it’s “I don’t want people in my social circle to point and laugh at me and call me a brainwashed idiot, which they will if I go to bat for my party in the face of something Everybody Knows.”

    The other issue being that it’s also a collective action problem.  Sure, I can choose not to scream at Biden to retire for the next four months, but unless the other hundred thousand New York Times drones in the party base all also individually decide to do the same thing, the problem remains.  Republicans had decades and enormous resources at their disposal to slowly remake their electorate into a voter base that didn’t think something was true just because it was on NPR.  We have neither of these.

  191. 191.

    RAM

    The New York Times’ promotion of fascism began in earnest with their 2016 anti-Clinton campaign and continues with this year’s anti-Biden campaign, tacitly–often overtly–supporting a convicted felon for the Presidency. What’s happened to the nation’s “newspaper of record” is pretty amazing, when you stop to think about it…

  192. 192.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @Matt McIrvin: Well, if you’ve seen Republicans ratfuck elections by turning good, decent people into flakes or monsters in the minds of every day Americans, you, too, would be terrified of it happening again.

    Notice that there are people who are saying “but the debate CONFIRMED THE NARRATIVE,” i.e., “the bullies scored a good hit!”

    When the bullies hit you, you have to hit back. Hard. “You think Biden had a moment? Trump can’t decide how many million immigrants there are – 10, 20, 50 million. The man is crazy, and a disaster.”

    Oh, but you’re too used to defending Biden, right? *ACCEPTING* the fucking *narrative*, rather than turning it around and calling Diapered Donald a criminal, a fraud, a liar, and a despicable human being who rapes woman once he has them vulnerable, and won’t allow them to have abortions, and by the way, only TRUMP would lie that ‘everyone’ wanted it back to the states.”

    That narrative – OMG WE ARE CHICKENSHITS WHO CAN’T FIGHT BACK! – should be told to move to Russia, so they have something real to be afraid of.

    ANYWAY: You’re right. Those people are trying to get Trump elected, by trying to appease self-generating shitstains on the Constitution. You want to clean the stains off? Get it out of the hands of people who wipe their ass with it.

  193. 193.

    SomeRandomGuy

    Also:

    https://digbysblog.net/2024/07/04/trump-says-i-got-him-out/

    Motherfucker really thinks he won. And some of y’all are helping that loathsome orange toad crow by questioning whether Biden, who doesn’t think all boats will run on batteries, doesn’t think electrical systems on boats are extremely dangerous, and DOESN’T THINK YOU CAN IDENTIFY A SHARK’S PROXIMITY BY SIGHT, you are all saying maybe he hasn’t got the mental capacity to run the fucking country.

    Any of y’all want that kind of fear, of a petty, pustulant bully, to run your lives, fine, but I’m going to pop the baby Xitler, and I hope the awful putrescence released by his implosion befouls the entire Republican party with the stench of their infinitude of hateful, unamerican lies.

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