Jesus Fucking Christ, it never ends with these backstabbing centrist fucks:
Sen. Mark R. Warner (D-Va.) is attempting to assemble a group of Democratic senators to ask President Biden to exit the presidential race, according to two people with direct knowledge of the effort.
Warner is telling Democratic senators that Biden can no longer remain in the election in the wake of his faltering debate performance, according to the people familiar with private conversations who spoke on the condition of anonymity to speak freely. Warner has told others that he is deeply concerned that Biden is not able to run a campaign that could beat former president Donald Trump.
If the justification was that Biden has faltered multiple times in meetings with multiple Senators, I’d have a different attitude. But this is all about the debate, and at the same time that Biden is attempting to point his campaign in the right direction, these fuckers are outside the tent pissing in.
This will have to be brief because I’m between family gatherings, but one of my family members (we’re all Democrats) was only able to watch the second half of the debate, and his take-away was that Biden didn’t do that badly. But he noted that every. goddam. thing. he’s heard out of professional Democrats’ mouths since the debate has been how Biden “lost”. Very little has been said about the tons of lies that Trump told. Very little has been said about the “post birth Roe” fantasy that Trump spun. The right way to message this is “yeah, Biden had a bad night, but did you hear the shit that came out of Trump’s yap?” Instead, we have 10 days of the worst messaging by supposedly loyal party establishment figures in modern political history.
If you think that Mark Warner and the rest of the centrist assholes he’s going to assemble to try to push Biden out are going to wholeheartedly back Kamala Harris, please send me some of what you’re smoking. The reason you don’t hear the progressives scheming and leaking to the Post is that they’re pretty happy with what they’ve gotten from the Biden administration. Warner et. al. are acting as chaos agents in hope of a never-gonna-happen brokered convention that will yield someone who isn’t as progressive as Biden. They also ignore the reality that the Biden/Harris campaign funds (~$250 million and counting) can only go to Harris if Biden drops out. Johnny Unbeatable can get $3,300 from the Biden/Harris PAC — that’s it.
We are in fucking cloud cuckoo pundit fantasy land, dragged there by assholes like Warner.
Jeffro
True, but Joe (and Kamala) know what’s what here. Call one of Warner’s offices and let ’em know, bad half-debate or not, you want the guy with four years of unprecedented success (and who’s already beaten trumpov badly): JOE “DARK BRANDON” BIDEN!
Washington, D.C. Phone: 202-224-2023
Abingdon Phone Number: 276-628-8158
Norfolk Phone Number: 757-441-3079
Richmond Phone Number: 804-775-2314
Vienna Phone: 703-442-0670
Roanoke Phone Number: 540-857-2676
Doc Sardonic
You are correct and also just identified one of the filibuster cowards content to hide behind Sinema’s skirt
wu ming
it seems pretty clear to me that the centrists are starting to freak out about the possibility of harris stepping up, and are doing their usual feckless shtick out in public as a way of trying to get leverage. idiots.
Scout211
Posting some good news here. I think we need some.
Kansas Supreme Court Strikes Down Two Anti-Abortion Laws
Kobach lost again.
NotMax
Open thread? Asshole flaunts his assholiness.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Doc Sardonic:
Yes and he’s trying to fill the asshole vacuum left by Sinema and Manchin’s departure.
Jay
Real, or WAPO?
The US MSM has been making so much shit up lately that there must be a pony in there somewhere.
Xavier
The right way for me to respond to this is to donate to Biden. Which I did.
Ishiyama
Acid, Amnesty, & Abortion! We still haven’t forgotten the Liberals who abandoned McGovern, rather than sit at the same table as we dirty f-cking hippies.
NotMax
Repeating from downstairs.
Xavier
@NotMax: I hope Peter Thiel gets sued back into the stone age when the inevitable overdoses happen.
Chris Johnson
I did leave Warner a message. “Stop it. Your idea is extremely stupid. Stop it now!”
suzanne
@$8 blue check mistermix: Bingo.
The “centrist” “conserva-Dems” can head on down to the Piggly-Wiggly or the Stop-n-Shop, grab a bottle of the sauce of their choosing, then slather it on and eat my whole ass.
Leto
@Scout211: That’s very good news! Hopefully a harbinger of things to come.
Leto
@suzanne: ma’am, this is a Wendy’s drive-thru…
Lacuna Synecdoche
Do we need a campaign to call Senators and House Reps to tell them we support Biden?
I worry that they’re only hearing from people calling to undermine the President.
Chris Johnson
@Ishiyama: Or that McGovern didn’t recover from scrambling to drop Tom Eagleton at the last minute and replace him with Sargent Shriver.
For some pretty respectable reasons… which amounted to, President Nixon.
Wouldn’t he have liked all that immunity! He’d have done even more, I think, if he’d had a sense that he could break any law he wanted, whenever he wanted. Nixon knew he was a crook, and considered that he had to get away with it. Just smiting people like Zeus wasn’t something Nixon felt entitled to: he wanted to push the limits, but considered them to be limits, not just his due.
Jay
@Xavier:
Won’t happen, the suits that is,
and injury blowouts will be much more common than OD’s,
does enhanced include things like nuralinks?
Every Billionaire is a crime.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, …
Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
dc
@NotMax: Biden had two interviews on July 4:
https://wurdradio.com/joe-biden-wurd-interview-andrea-lawful-sanders/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDCxi2pOOYc
Vía: https://mastodon.social/@[email protected]
Elizabelle
That photo. LOL. The old guy in the middle has the brightest political future.
David Collier-Brown
For all my American friends: Heather Cox Richardson pointed out in a recent interview that whenever a political party switches leaders, they split the electorate and get way fewer votes.
The extreme case was the (Canadian) Conservatives replacing Brian Mulroney with Kim Campbell. The party was reduced to two seats, down from 169. Mr Mulroney was not seen as an electable leader by the party and they hoped Kim Campbell would save them. Oopsie!
I recommend against changing horses mid-stream (:-))
3Sice
How about NO?
Lets go Joe!
Lets go Joe!
Lets go Joe!
Lets go Joe!
Lets go Joe!
geg6
@suzanne:
So glad both our senators have expressed support for the President. Mark Warner can go cry to his buddies, Sinema and Manchin.
suzanne
@Leto: My loathing is the size of a Double Baconator. Or whatever the hell.
Elizabelle
You’ve got Manchin, Sinema dressed like a traffic cone, Backstabber Warner, Susan Collins hiding in the back. I don’t recognize the other politicos. Maybe they haven’t embarrassed themselves enough to come to our attention.
Eyeroller
@Lacuna Synecdoche: They’re hearing from the MSM. They pay way too much attention to those people. And of course the consultants.
delphinium
This is what is so frustrating-Biden/Harris are the ticket, and yet folks keep trying to game out another scenario at this late stage. That this spineless prick wants to keep adding to the media hysteria is beyond enraging. He’s not even up for re-election this year so he can’t claim to be “concerned” about Biden being a drag on his ballot. Will be contacting my NY senators and ask them to politely tell Warner to fuck off with this nonsense, put on his big boy pants, and act like he actually cares about this country and the citizens in it.
Ohio Mom
You would think that people elected to high office would have a better political sense than to jump on the anti-Biden bandwagon but apparently not. It is scary to think we have to depend on such ninkenpoops to lead our country.
Sigh.
Tony Jay
Every time I see Manchin I can’t get past my surprise that anyone could bring themselves to vote for someone with such a stereotypical ‘Mr Resting Accused Parish Priest Face’.
Then I remember. West Virginia. Sorry, Cole.
Lapassionara
Seriously, grow a spine!
What is feeding this frenzy? I made the mistake of checking my New Yorker App, and it is running several stories undermining Biden. Are they all on Putin’s payroll, because otherwise it is just craziness. One article, maybe two, but on and on and on like this is just totally counter productive. The guy is out there making total sense, unlike his opponent.
Eyeroller
@Ohio Mom: I see you don’t have much experience with Mark Warner since you don’t live in Virginia. A fine specimen of a jellyfish-American.
Ohio Mom
@Elizabelle: “Sinema dressed like a traffic cone” I snorted, which is the closest I can get to a laugh right now. Thanks for the lift.
delphinium
@Scout211: That is great news-thanks for this!
suzanne
@geg6: I am far less convinced of a good path forward than many here. I honestly don’t know if Biden, Harris, both of the above, neither of the above….what would happen. All I see is risk in every direction.
What I do know is that being a media suckup is fucking gross. The smarmy, compromising, “adults in the room” manage to shit the bed with regularity. Pun intended.
Layer8Problem
Can someone do a wellness check on Bupalos? I’m a bit worried they might have a dose of whiplash after the spectacle in the last thread.
Eyeroller
@Lapassionara: It’s a huge, self-reinforcing media circle jerk where (to mix my metaphors) they all have their heads up each others’ asses, and there is some evidence that normies are getting tired of it.
Leto
@suzanne: haha, was just channeling that meme. But honestly I laughed a bit too hard at the visuals of your mini-rant.
SuzieC
@Elizabelle: The one standing next to Biden is former Ohio Senator Rob Portman, replaced by the odious JD Vance. Portman had a few redeeming qualities. Vance is pure poison, 100% of the time.
evodevo
“Warner et. al. are acting as chaos agents in hope of a never-gonna-happen brokered convention that will yield someone who isn’t as progressive as Biden. ”
Yeah…someone like ….. Mark Warner? What a bunch of egotistical assholes…
Elizabelle
@Ohio Mom: 🥰
Another Scott
Hmmm….
Cheers,
Scott.
Elizabelle
@SuzieC: Thank you. He did look vaguely familiar.
Searcher
@Jay: Forget the toll doping inflicts on the body; can you imagine what participating in the Doplympics will do to an althete’s career?
Good luck ever participating in the regular old Olympics, or any other competition once you publicly admit to doping! Goodbye, endorsement deals!
Chris Johnson
@Another Scott: MAGA has more to be upset about than that. Trump is already literally stealing their money and making all their organizations bankrupt and fully intends to betray them and sell out all their shit.
I mean, I hate their shit, and it’s not like it would be any use that he betrays them ‘cos he’d do just as much damage as if he was doing their will, but he still is selling out all their shit and stealing all their money. MAGA is right to be alarmed.
Jay
@David Collier-Brown:
not a good analogy. Brian Mulroney had gone from being meh, by the electorate, to being loathed. There was not one single thing that he an his Con’s did that was good for Canada or Canadians.
But Brian Mulroney was “affable”. He seemed like a guy you could have a beer with, or invite to a dinner party, (he wasn’t, just another good sociopath).
So the Con’s handed the flaming paper bag of dogshit over to Kim Campbell, ( who actually is an almost decent human), so that the Con’s could trot Brian Mulroney out later as a “wise old statesman, when needed”.
Canadian voters were already going to gut the Con’s anyway. Had they kept Brian Mulroney as leader, the loss would have been even larger.
Geminid
@Elizabelle: I think the woman on the left is Senator Debbie Stabenow (MI)
Ed. Now I see it was it was Senator Shaheen if New Hampshire.
Regulon
@Elizabelle:
President Joe Biden speaks Thursday outside the White House with a bipartisan group of senators after meeting on an infrastructure deal. From left to right are Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH), Sen. Rob Portman (R-OH), Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA), Sen. Kyrsten Sinema (D-AZ), Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV), Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA) and Sen. Mitt Romney (R-UT).
ETA: Romney top of head in background.
Jackie
@Scout211: Great! It’s always wonderful when Kobach gets his ass handed to him!
Marc
Oddly, that isn’t the way I remember it. I was 18 then and it was my first vote in an election. I lived in Massachusetts at the time (the only state he won) and we pretty much believed it was the “Establishment” Democrats who abandoned McGovern everywhere else, not the “Liberals”. The real issue was the tension between the voters who wanted an immediate withdrawal from Vietnam (McCarthy or Kennedy voters in ’68), and the party leaders (and southern Democrats) who were still convinced of the need to “win” that war.
Ryan
I can understand why republicans turn on their own even more than they turn on Democrats. I’m feeling that impulse now.
lee
My gut is Russia is behind the push for this (certainly for the amplification).
JMG
I refuse to overthink this, because I haven’t the faintest idea what’s the right answer. If Biden stays in, I’ll support him happily. If he steps down in favor of Harris because HE (it’d only be him) decides he can’t beat Trump and she can, I’ll support her happily. If that’s wishy-washy, so be it.
Jackie
@NotMax: ABC changed the Biden interview to 8:00 ET/PT for the entire interview – scrapping Sat and Sun programming.
Only ET will get it live; lesser time zones will see it at 8pm in their respective zones.😡
eta link: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/07/05/joe-biden-interview-abc-news-george-stephanopoulos/74290395007/
ArchTeryx
One theory that came out of the Very Online Left has been the Rotating Villain Theory of the Senate. That the Democrats took turns squelching any progressive legislation coming their way so that you couldn’t target any of them in a primary, and thus, the entire party can’t be trusted.
There’s actually some validity to that theory. It isn’t a conspiracy by the Democratic party, but it is a conspiracy among the radical centrists in the party – centrists we often have no choice but to support because the alternate is a straight-up nazi, which we’re about to find out in West by God Virginia. They LIKE the rotating villain play, because it acts as a smokescreen and keeps the heat on someone that hopefully can’t be touched. And if they are turfed out like Manchin and Sinema are about to be, well, there are always more centrists ready to step up and be the next roadblock.
In the Uplift universe by David Brin, a very liberal sci-fi author (he even posts about politics on the Book of Faces), his Five Galaxies were split into four factions.
One, the extremely tiny and powerless left, which nonetheless was very smart and very cunning. They had to be, to keep themselves alive.
Two, the religious fanatics, always reactionary and always wanting the Five Galaxies run with them in charge. Constantly fighting with one another because they see each other as competitors. They also have most of the guns.
Three, the apathetic, apolitical middle, which was the vast majority and just wanted to be allowed to live their lives the way things are. Content with the status quo, but without the ambitions to take over everything.
And four, the centrists, the “Both sides need to shut up and quit bothering us.” type that blocked any constructive action.
The ones that Brin saved his most withering contempt for weren’t the religions fanatics. It was the centrists that had the power to do something, but refused. So the reactionary monsters had free rein to fuck around and never find out. And of course, we humans, having accidentally given ourselves high status but low firepower in this universe, make a discovery about the Five Galaxies’ origins that could shake up the entire order of things. The Right completely loses its shit and goes after us with hammer and tongs. And our only allies were the Left.
3Sice
Here, hold this bag. We’ll be back to pick you up later. No, it’s cool. We’re going to pick up your chair for the resolute desk.
Ruviana
Totally OT but what is going on with Sinema’s feet?
Scout211
Looks like one of those rollers that you use after
kneefoot surgery.zhena gogolia
@Ruviana: I think she’s standing on one foot like a flamingo.
zhena gogolia
@Scout211: You’re probably right!
Scout211
@zhena gogolia: Sure, but I like your answer better. 😉
NotMax
@Scout211
Hey, it ain’t easy disguising cloven hooves.
//
apocalipstick
I’m certain that Warner spends his evenings looking into a mirror and practicing his acceptance speech when his fantasized brokered convention selects… gasp… Mark Warner!
Geminid
@evodevo: Mistermix pulled that “Warner wants to use a convention to nominate a Centrist” scenario out of thin air. He has no basis for it other than his general animus towards moderate Democrats.
A lot of ax-grinders are using this debate controversy to stigmatize Party members they don’t like. As someone said, “Never let a crisis go to waste.”
moonbat
Frickin Arkansas got enough signatures to put an abortion amendment on the ballot.
No one has any idea how far blue this country is going to go in November.
To quote an excellent analysis of the election that has been making the rounds here lately: Women. Are. Pissed. Off.
George from Ohio by way of Pennsylvania
This is my first – and likely last – posted comment. Balloon Juice has been one of my go-to sites for the last 10 years. However, the breadth, depth and shear viciousness of the “anti-centrist” comments regarding the current issue of whether President Biden should or shouldn’t withdraw his candidacy is really discouraging. The narratives of the BJ commenters- like that of the Biden campaign apparatus- is resembling the left-wing version of the MAGA universe: a cult-like defense of “our guy” that brooks no dissent, criticism or even a pause in the true-believer narrative. My first presidential vote was for George McGovern and I’ve been true-blue in my votes since that election. Regrettably, I just can’t support Joe Biden’s continued candidacy. I’ll be writing in Kamala Harris for my presidential choice.
Geminid
@zhena gogolia: Sinema broke a bone in her leg not long before the picture was taken.
Scout211
Nebraska did, too! But all the signatures still need to be verified to get it on the ballot. Fingers crossed.
ETA:
And all the media attention on Biden right now has buried the big conflict with the anti-abortion Republicans and the RNC, who want to soften the abortion stance. Trump, as usual, changes his mind all the time on any policy issues but they are mad because his latest is “let the states decide.”
That is not going over well with the fundies.
moonbat
@Scout211: I think that is why all this disruption is being sown now. We stay the course, and the Republicans are going to get crushed.
Jay
@JMG:
President Joe Biden is all in.
The November ticket will be Biden/Harris.
Anybody who claims otherwise is gaslighting you.
lee
@moonbat: Holy shit. Is Gov. Liar on the ballot this year?
Shalimar
@Another Scott: There are some states where would be a defense for killing Robinson now. “He said he was going to have me killed. I had no choice but to get him first.”
ArchTeryx
@moonbat: The real question is if the Arkansas women are going to split-ticket in the voting both, voting for the amendment and then for the Rs they are tribally ingrained to vote for. The ones that will guarantee the amendment never has any teeth.
I’ve seen this far too often with women in deep red states.
moonbat
@ArchTeryx: I can think why you would vote to keep your rights to bodily autonomy and then vote for the people who are going to take it away.
And I haven’t seen this exact situation in my lifetime because Roe has been the law of the land for most of my lifetime.
MazeDancer
Mr. Biden, finally, took some questions from reporters at the WI airport.
You Tell ’em, Joe,
Eyeroller
Everybody please listen to Dr. Vox (Dave Roberts):
https://nitter.poast.org/drvolts/status/1809319049559699762#m
Key graf:
“Just as one example — other people have aggregated these — there have been “calls” for every Dem nominee of the last 30 years to step aside. Dems practically delight in abandoning their own people, policies, & principles in response to bad-faith pressure. They f’ing love it.
and
So, say Biden stepped aside in favor of Harris tomorrow. How long until the vapid gossips we call political reporters find something wrong with her, some alleged flaw they just have to write 192 stories about? How long until the hopped-up mediocrities we call pundits find some “counter-intuitive” reason that the new Dem ticket is flawed after all? How long until the irredentist left gets over the temporary thrill of its new Harris memes & remembers that she’s a cop & turns on her? How long before the ambient racism & misogyny in the US lead center-leftists to conclude that, sure, they’d support a black woman, just not *this* black woman? In other words: how long before everyone reverts to their comfortable, familiar identity & narratives?
For some reason, left pundits are pathologically averse to acknowledging that fact. And so they grasp at these straws — if we could just get rid of Biden, we could have a reasonable conversation! Yeah, sure. You absurd summer children.”
As they say, read the whole thread.
Aussie Sheila
@ArchTeryx:
Heh! Love it. The ‘sensible centre’ in the democratic world have brought their polities closer to the 1930s than I ever thought possible. Silly me.
The Biden/Harris ticket is the best and the only way forward. I am very confident in them personally and in the people and organisation around them.
Thank heavens the ticket is starting to go on the offensive. The last week has been unbelievable to watch and read.
F the Dem Senators making this mischief. In a strong party they would be expelled, and rightly so. I get why that can’t happen yet, but after this is all over, ‘more and better Dems’ would be a good way to go.
Oh, and the UK results were excellent. Ordinary activists stepped up and organised a very efficient targeted vote campaign to assist in overcoming the distortions of a FPTP voting system. They did an excellent job.
Jay
@Geminid:
If nobody is willing to put there names out there as a source, it’s about as real as my 8 pack of abs and Canadian girlfriend.
“Unnamed Sources”, ffs, Vlad, Dennison, Igor?
JoyceH
What I can’t believe is how little coverage Trump’s debate performance received. That lunatic claimed that all these prison and insane asylum inmates are pouring across the border and killing hundreds of thousands of Americans. Hundreds of thousands!
Chris Johnson
@Scout211: I’m trying to remember which other states and/or batteground states have reproductive rights on the ballot. I think Arkansas and Nebraska aren’t even the two I was thinking of.
Repatriated
I can see some self-interest in play here.
As it stands, and locked in as of the end of the primaries, Harris is VP (and current VP candidate) the presumptive Presidential nominee in ’28, and if everything goes well runs as an incumbent in ’32.
If (when) Biden wins, and holds on until late January ’26, the above is locked in.
If Biden wins but resigns before 20 Jan 24, Harris is still the presumptive nominee, but would be a lame duck if (when) she wins in ’28 — the Dem side of the Presidential contest would be open in ’32, with Harris’s VP being the presumptive nominee. The same goes if Biden drops out before (or is pushed out during) the convention, the VP slot becomes open (and then that person is the presumptive nominee in ’32).
So, if you’ve got personal Democratic Presidential ambitions and don’t want to wait 8-12 years for it, it’s in your (individual, not the party’s) interest to get Biden to step aside ASAP.
sab
Me personally. I don’t think Biden trusts any one but hia wife.
He genially deals with everyone. That is what competent politicians do.
He has been genially dealing with everyone for fifty years.
For most of those years I have refused to watch meet the press because that sunday the only one they could get was joe. Boring.
He had a wife and kids at home but every week he bored us and neglected his family because he had stuff to say.
I was bored. He gave up family time.
Can I say I was seriously wrong. He had a message. I was on board (and bored). Others weren’t. They needed to know an actual politician cared. Senator Joe or President Joe.
Maybe we should listen. This guy cared about his job as a Senator, and cares about his job as President. Not for the job.Just for the results.
moonbat
@lee:
Unfortunately, no.
ArchTeryx
@Aussie Sheila: In a strong party they’d be expelled, yeah. But the Centrists in parliamentary democracies love to form their own parties and/or take over one of the dominant ones. Look what happened to Labour in the UK. And they often end up kingmakers if nobody gets a clear majority in the elections. The parliamentary democracies are having their own problems with the fascists because of this. The centrists will often visibly align with the “mainstream” left, but make sure nothing of worth gets done in Parliament.
Scout211
@Chris Johnson: Here’s a list from KFF from June 28th
ETA: note that some of the voter initiatives are anti-abortion ones this list, too.
A list from The 19th News
ArchTeryx
@moonbat: Take a good look at how many white women voted for Trump in 2016 *and* in 2020. That phenomenon is pretty real, unfortunately. Whole lot of white women seem conditioned to vote for Rs no matter what. Look what happened in Kentucky, with people – including women – screaming that Obamacare had to be repealed, but wanting to keep Kynect (which was… Obamacare).
They got what they voted for. Bevin.
( Note: White women, not all women. Black women know exactly what the stakes are. A disturbing number of white women seem to vote with their church and their racism even over their own bodily autonomy. )
moonbat
@ArchTeryx: Yeah, and then the Dobbs decision happened. I think it is safe to say judging by the outcomes of all the special elections that have taken place since, Dobbs was a game changer.
ETA When Kansas voters slap this abortion ban stuff down, I think it’s safe to say predictions predicated solely on past behavior aren’t going to be as reliable. Maybe like a lot of us they were telling themselves : The Supreme Court would NEVER go that far. And then they did.
Chris Johnson
@Scout211:
Thanks! Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, FLORIDA, Maryland, Missouri, Montana, opposing ones in Nebraska, Nevada, a negative one on the ballot in PENNSYLVANIA, South Dakota… nice!
Elections have consequences. And mechanics. And America has democracy. The system is running and people are able to get involved.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Jay:
Exactly. Probably worth reposting Tiedrich’s piece from earlier today:
https://www.jefftiedrich.com/p/this-is-getting-fucking-ridiculous
Gee, wonder how the base of the party in VA thinks about what their senior Senator has said?
ArchTeryx
@moonbat: How much has yet to be seen. The Dobbs effect has never been tested in a Presidential election. Believe me, I sincerely hope you are right. And the special elections are encouraging. But we still didn’t keep the House and almost lost the Senate in 2022. The “Red Wave” never happened, but the Rs still won the day.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Scout211:
Thanks for the 19th news link, more up to date than the BallotPedia site.
Of note folks: the SD measure is actually opposed by groups that are normally behind such things:
Jackie
@Chris Johnson: Add Florida and S. Dakota…
Aussie Sheila
@Repatriated:
This exactly.
Personal ambition over the collective good of their Party and democracy.
Their activities should be noted, not necessarily widely commented on.
They should never be allowed near higher Office, ever.
Chris
The single biggest data point in favor of Biden having had just one bad night is that every single criticism, in fact, comes back to that one bad night.
moonbat
@ArchTeryx: We will see. But I take heart in the fact that Biden/Harris has made reproductive rights a centerpiece of their campaign. They are campaigning on it.
Now Trump’s team is desperately trying to see how far they can back off Dobbs at the convention without losing their evangelical fanatical base. That should be fun to watch.
mali muso
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Speaking for this VA voter, I am livid and have called Warner’s office and left messages to that effect.
Jeffro
@Another Scott:
Right??!?
“Now that we’ve talked about my age and crappy debate performance for almost two weeks…could the blessed media in this country be bothered to take a look at the just-released Epstein files, featuring none other than Donald Trump?
No? How about Project 2025?
No? How about Putin endorsing trump’s “plan” for Ukraine?
No?
No?
No?
You have to ask yourself: WHY NOT?”
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Oh yes, Biden can’t possible win, but some unknown Senator can whose means getting the nomination will offend every black voter there is, can? Jesus fucking Christ these people are idiots.
Geminid
@Aussie Sheila: Wrong. In a strong Party–and the Democrats are a strong Party– they would be beaten in primaries, by the voters.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Chris: It’s not just one bad night, it’s fifteen minutes of one night.
Geminid
@Repatriated: Mark Warner is not gonna run for President.
Eyeroller
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Twenty minutes, but who’s counting?
Seriously, this is lunacy. It’s worse than the first Obama-Romney debate (and some were calling for Obama to drop out after that). Normies didn’t think this debate was great, but didn’t see it as at all catastrophic. This is entirely orchestrated by a hostile media, and Dems just roll over and show our bellies to them.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Geminid:
Furthermore, if commenters on twitter are to be believed (hah!), he’s probably not gonna run for reelection in 26.
That’s probably idle speculation since he’s not said boo about it. If he does, I hope somebody primaries the shit outta him.
wu ming
@George from Ohio by way of Pennsylvania:
so you’re effectively voting for trump, then. some liberal.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Did you miss the bit that your’ poor, injured centralist also want Harris to resign?
Geminid
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Mark Warner would win a Virginia primary if he ran again.
But I very much doubt he will run again. He’ll likely retire, and Rep. McClellan will win the primary and the seat.
Ruviana
@Geminid: Thanks! It was making me crazy.
zhena gogolia
@George from Ohio by way of Pennsylvania: Ну и Бог с вами.
RaflW
Apparently there’s a small group of assholes in the Dem caucus who all looked at Joe Manchin retiring and thought “I want to be the next hated obstructionist in my Party.” WTF.
kwAwk
I disagree really. I’ve been a Biden supporter until 2008, but I don’t think we can have a candidate that can’t stay up past 8 pm. Trump is a weak candidate who can and should be beaten handily and if Joe isn’t up to the task he should step aside.
We owe Joe a debt of gratitude for stepping up and winning in 2020, but his best power move right now might be to step aside and let someone else finish the job of defeating Trump.
Jay
@kwAwk:
LMFAO, we used to have better trolls,……..
debit
@kwAwk: Get the fuck out.
karen marie
I am baffled by Democratic Senators coming out against Biden. What is the motivation? What can they possibly gain by Biden dropping out, handing the election to the GOP?
karen marie
@George from Ohio by way of Pennsylvania: Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Fucking Tonya Harding Democrats. Fuck them all. If my Rep or Senators pull this shit then they’ve lost my vote next election.
If you don’t stand behind Biden then I don’t stand behind you. Fuck these self-serving kneecapping pricks.
@karen marie:
Actually, do let it hit and hard.
VFX Lurker
Had to pie two commenters on this thread. Both strangers to me.
I have to pie disrupters here every four years.
Misterpuff
@Ishiyama: I will point out that slogan was to paint the youthful dissenters to the War as df hippies (as you point out) and yet two of the three were implemented by the country with no detriment to the nation and if you substitute pot for LSD even sane drug policies are being pursued (and LSD may have some value as a pharmaceutical), so a slur has been turned on its head.
And now Democracy may hinge on the popularity of a right to abortion.
Younger me (1972 me) would not have believed it.
kwAwk
@debit: Blow me.
kwAwk
@Jay: No. This is the same old Balloon Juice. Anybody who posts an opinion that differs from the herd is accused of being a troll and told to leave.
debit
@kwAwk: Difficult, when your dick is so tiny.
kwAwk
@debit: this operation was for my pleasure not yours. Get to work.
debit
@kwAwk: Hah hah that was funny. Now fuck off.
kwAwk
@karen marie: We are an adult political party that changes direction when we have a problem. People like John Warner are Joe Biden’s peers.
Nancy Pelosi stepped aside because people in Congress let her know that it was time for the younger generation to take over. She was the greatest Speaker of the House in history, and stepping aside only strengthened the argument for that.
kwAwk
@debit: Are you John Cole? Do you own this joint?
Geminid
@karen marie: So far as we know, this is one Senator, not Senators plural.
debit
@kwAwk: Why, no, but John has said repeatedly that we are free to fight amongst ourselves. If he feels it’s gone too far, he’ll step in.
ETA: please, by all means email him and tell him all about it. He LOVES that.
kwAwk
@debit: The fight with logic and reason not childish insults and personal attacks.
debit
@kwAwk: You were the one who told me to blow you.
kwAwk
@debit: after you told me to get the fuck out
debit
@kwAwk: Bored now. Pie it is.
kwAwk
@debit: been a few years since I’ve been here and I’m not up to speed with the BJ idioms and euphemisms..
Enjoy your pie.
Aussie Sheila
@Geminid:
Wrong. I’m not arguing for an ideological bent that goes against the particular district, I’m arguing for a strong, focussed and united team. There’s a difference between being strong and united, and ideologically focussed at the expense of being elected.
See UK and Aus Labor parties.
Our ALP government has just expelled from their caucus a member who crossed the floor to vote against her Party. Good.
Although her issue is one I strongly support, (recognition of Palestine), either they stick together to get it done, or else the government is a rabble. Rabbles don’t govern. They attract opportunists and charlatans.
Governments full of the latter over the last two decades have rained electoral disasters down on the democratic world, everywhere.
Enough already. Strong parties are fundamental to good government. Weak and fissiparous parties are a disaster, everywhere.
Of, and before I forget, tell me again how Sinema assisted the growth and health of the Democratic Party? Manchin I can understand. His state is hopeless, but the Sinema issue was simply gobsmacking.
Misterpuff
@Jay: Don’t make fun of my Canadian girlfriend, if the shit comes down, I’m gonna move there and marry her….
Geminid
@Aussie Sheila: Manchin and Sinema are outliers and will be gone next year. But they were loyal enough to elect a Democratic Senate leader in January of 2021, and that made the difference in Joe Biden’s first term.
The Democrats are not a “fissiparous” party. If they were, they would never have passed the major legislation they did those two years, with a 5 vote majority in the House and a 50-50 Senate.
And if the Australian Labor Party has such superior organizization, how come the Liberals elected Prime Ministers for 11 of the past 13 years? You don’t even have a majority in the Senate right now.
Imagine if some Yank dropped into an Australian political blog during the years 2011-2021 and lectured you about how Labor needed primaries with first-past-the-post voting in order to cure its incapacity. That would be ridiculous because a Parliamentary system has an entirely different dynamic than ours.
But this is what you are doing here and I am surprised so intelligent and politically aware a person as you would engage in such shallow thinking.
Paul W.
Ok, Bidens not dropping out so I’m all in and all over this media torrent.
I guess I have to learn to finally tune out politics and just get my head I. The organizing game. Will be back to donate to Wisconsin fund tomorrow.
Damien
Do we need someone to explain the incredibly basic game theory about why voting for someone else is a spectacularly bad idea?
Ok, here’s goes: look you stupid fucks who are bouncing around this thread cavalierly calling for Biden to drop out, he is the candidate. Not voting for him doesn’t make you more pure, or smarter, or whatever the fuck your smug asses think you’ll be: it makes you stupid, because all you’re doing is removing your vote for achieving the things that matter to you. Unless of course you’re one of those that wants to see Palestine devastated and everyone punished for not agreeing with your genius that we should vote elsewhere.
Grow. The. Fuck. Up.
Your pure candidate doesn’t exist, and the millions of votes that already came in during the primaries indicates just exactly who the Party’s rank and file want to run. It ain’t Mark Warner, and it ain’t whoever you think is better than Joe. This is how we do things, and freaking out like this is fucking pathetic, because there’s not another option anyway, and even if there was the rank and file have shown WHO THEY WANT.
once again, grow the absolute fuck up and vote for the choice that gets you closer to what you want, which unless you’re primary language is Russian should be fucking Joe Biden. And if you choose to write Harris in instead of VOTING FOR THE CANDIDATE then take a thousand seats and shut the fuck up forever, because you lose all rights to complain about whatever happens.
You, Warner, the media, and every single whiny, whinging, mewling, holier than thou fucking fool can walk right on out into traffic.
kwAwk
@Damien: I agree with most of what you say, but if you look around the consensus is that most people want someone younger than Biden or Trump.
I don’t think Biden is a bad President and believe we should be thankful that he stepped in and beat Trump, but Trump is a wounded bird at this point.
It would be a power move I believe if Biden were to say, hey, I am thankful for the opportunity to have been your President, and while I feel I can still do this job at a high level, I’ve listened and I’ve heard you, therefore I’m going to step aside and let the younger generation finish the job. Guys like me in my generation have had their say. It’s time to let the younger voices take over.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@kwAwk:
Let me quote the Pitchbot
kwAwk
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: You’ll have to forgive me as it’s been about 8 years since I’ve regularly posted here and have no clue what a pitchbot is.
Yes, we don’t want to nominate Sanders or Warren. If the voters chose them it would be one thing, but this isn’t that.
Our choices I think are Witmer, Newsome or Buttigieg. They’re well known within the party but don’t have the national name recognition yet. This is the perfect opportunity to run one of them though, as I said Trump is a wounded bird. This isn’t 2016.
The further we get into this the more people are going to wake up and remember why they hated Trump in the first place. They’re going to feel somebody new is going to be very appealing.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@kwAwk: Classy. Now go away, please.
Aussie Sheila
@Geminid:
I’ll tell you something about the ALP and its electoral fortunes. The Party plays the game it’s in, with an electoral system that permits a wide range of political viewpoints to get elected. Even if a Party looses in the Reps it can stop the worst happening in the Senate, not by idiotic rules that require 60% of the vote to pass anything (rules adhered to by the Democratic Party even when voting rights were on the line in 2021), but by being able to make a political issue out of things that the government does.
The Democratic Party is one election away from global disaster and all I have heard and read is pissing and moaning about one bad debate your only, already selected candidate for President had last Thursday. The centre left and left in my country has had the combined Murdoch media, controlling 70% of the Press and a good deal of the broadcast media opposing it since I was in Primary school.
The effing nyt and the effing wapo are acting exactly as elite media act everywhere.
That’s why I believe in strong and disciplined parties. No proper party should have elected representatives at this stage of the game, leaking, moaning and pissing to the press about an already preselected candidate for a job whose powers are simply terrible, especially so after the latest USSC atrocity.
It’s been a depressing debacle reading and watching it. Simply execrable.
Geminid
@Aussie Sheila: As for Sinema, Arizona Democrats gave her their votes in 2018, but she would have lost her primary this year and did not run. Problem solved.
I guess the Democrat Party could have “expelled” Sinema in the meantime, like Labor did that Australian Senator* But the Australian Senator kept her seat as an Independent, as would have Sinema. So what is the difference?
* The Party suspended the Senator indefinitely over her expressed willingness to vote for recognition of a Palestinian state. So she resigned and became an Independent. Can she run as a Green next time? Would they take her?
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@kwAwk: If Biden withdraws, the only possible practical candidate is Kamala Harris. She is the sitting VP, so this is literally her job. Ignoring how good Joe has been as POTUS and Kamala as VP, skipping over Kamala as the candidate will (rightly) enrage black women (and women in general), plus no one but Kamala would have access to the Dem presidential election fund ($100 million+). So talk of any other candidates is ridiculous!
kwAwk
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): I’m not convinced that black people even like Harris all that much. She was a pretty hardcore prosecutor in her younger days, and black people see her a lot like Kendrick thinks of Drake. Not one of us. A little too Canadian.
Harris’s job as VP is to take over for Biden as President if he steps down. She’s not guaranteed the nomination for President in any circumstance. Her negatives at this point are really high in polls. The right has a lot of ammo on her. We might be better as a party to choose more of a hologram candidate to go against Trump. Someobody who shakes up the race and can turn the debate back to the issues. And sure, keep Harris as VP if you want.
Geminid
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan): Bypassing Vice President Harris would outrage a lot of white men too, including me for reasons of practicality, equity and the political stupidity.
Citizen Alan
@kwAwk: Oh FFS! And now, here’s a nym I don’t recognize to remind us that “Kamala is a cop!”
kwAwk
@Citizen Alan: I know you guys are going to get angry and scream at me for saying this but Kamala Harris isn’t really an African American. She’s and Afro-Caribbean American mixed with Indian American by way of Canada. African American culture is distinctly different than Afro-Caribbean culture.
Kamala is a cop is an over simplification. The dis-proportionally negative interactions with the criminal justice system that African Americans have in this country is major issue of importance in African American communities in this country and Kamala being a prosecutor who was in charge of administering this puts her on the wrong side of the issue. Since black people receive dis-proportionally harsher sentences that whites for the same drug type crimes, running as being a hard ass prosecutor isn’t going to play the same way in black communities that it does in white ones. She should have made a big show in her VP years as being the one in Biden’s administration working to right this wrong. You can’t cede the issue to DJT.
Jay
@kwAwk:
LMFAO, so much stupid. So much Ignorance, all crammed into one tiny little troll.
Aussie Sheila
@Geminid:
She might run as a Green next time, but who cares. She’ll lose, and if she wins? Same outcome as now. What she did was idiotic. But I blame her political idiocy. The Greens tempted her and she accepted. I don’t dislike her. She is right on the issue.
But she is wrong in what she did. She was elected as an ALP Senator, not as a representative of some putative ‘point of view’.
I agree she should be expelled from the ALP Caucus. She, and anybody else who thinks they can make up policy as they go along need to learn a lesson about solidarity and unity. Pour encourager les autres.
Sorry if that’s too Stalinist for Dems here. But I believe it.
If I were a U.S. Dem Biden wouldn’t have been my choice for Pres nom. in 2020/2019. I know, who cares, but hear me out.
Once selected, I would crawl over broken glass to vote for him and his excellent VP.
If I’m not mistaken he and Harris have won the Dem primaries, n’est pas? So why the fuck am I reading and hearing Dem constituencies moaning and pissing about the Democratic nominees for President and VP?
Why do experienced activists put up with nonentities like Warner leaking against his selected leadership team to the fucking US Press?
Leaking to the Press is par for the course for leadership aspirants. But if some fucker worked to undermine the democratically selected leader of my Party they would be outed and expelled.
Pain is the best political teacher. The Dems need to learn to meet it out.
wenchacha
@kwAwk: None of those named would have Biden’s war chest; it belongs to POTUS and VPOTUS. That would place Imaginary Perfect Dem way behind from the jump.
Geminid
@Aussie Sheila: I think that if you want to make sweeping pronouncements about American politics you should inform yourself better about them. I remember you commenting few months ago about the lack of strong future prospects on our political bench and that’s when I realized how little attention you pay to Democrats and the Democratic party.
And you get sucked in to intra-party fights that actually are not that substantial or significant. The front pager wails, “It never ends with these backstabbing centrists fucks” like it’s this ever-present problem, but in fact “Centrist/Progressive” conflicts has been fairly quiet the second half of Joe Bidens term; it just never ends inside the poster’s head and his default is to bash moderates whenever the opportunity presents. And this debate controversy presents an opportunity too good to pass up.
I pointed out at #134 that during Biden’s first two years, Democrats passed four major spending bills. These will have an impact throughout this decade and into the next. They have kept us out of recession and our economy is the best in my adult life.
We did this with a 50-50 Senate and a 5 vote House Majority. Under your analysis this could not have happened because we lack strong party discipline, but it did in fact happen. Your analysis fails because it is theoretical and not practical, and it applies the template of Parliamentary politics to a very different system. And it comes from a very narrow base of knowledge about the Party and its elected leaders.
kwAwk
@Jay: If anyone is a troll here it is you. You’re the one making posts without substance designed to insult and annoy..
kwAwk
@wenchacha: We have our share of billionaires in our party too. Those things could be overcome.
POTUS could still spend his war chest at his own discretion. Attack ads on Trump. GOTV campaigns.
Chris Johnson
@kwAwk: No, it’s actually quite interesting. It’s like there’s a smattering of new nyms claiming to be lurkers who have popped up and are arguing, in great detail, trial balloons to gauge receptiveness for what might happen.
On an entirely separate thread we’ve got a guy seeing how we react to doubling down on the original ‘Biden is doomed, Trump is invincible’ message.
Here, he is not, but instead you’re all over the thread with an alternate message. Your message is the ‘wounded bird’ message (love that it’s from kwAwk!) and your argument is that no, in fact, Trump is so fucked that both Biden AND Kamala should go, because it’s a golden opportunity to do a super radical thing that just might work. Yes?
Other dude has nothing to say about Kamala, but you’re in there with detailed talking points about Kamala, including that all blacks hate her for being a prosecutor and a coconut and she’s not a real black. These are arguments I’ve seen from Russia-aligned right wingers (as in, passionately arguing against Ukraine, you know the kind) but you’re isolating just that element, to see if there’s any chance at changing the whole narrative on a dime. Or maybe it’s to test whether that would work if Joe died.
So you’re working the ‘wounded bird’ beat, sounding out people for whether they can be persuaded to throw away the WHOLE Dem ticket, plus all the money that has been raised, on the grounds that this is the only chance ever to do that because Trump is SO weak.
Is that correct? We can call you the wounded bird if I’ve got that straight :)
kwAwk
@Chris Johnson: I’m neither new here nor a lurker. If you choose to look you can find comments here from me going back at least as far as 2008. After Trump was elected I walked away from political blogs and MSNBC as the 24/7 All Trump All the Time mentality was too much for me.
Yes, I would say Trump is a wounded bird, but so is Biden at this point. Biden has to do a better job at selling himself, his administration and the Democratic Party if Trump is to be defeated again. I think the best path forward for Democrats would be to run what I call a hologram candidate against Trump, much like Trump was a hologram when he ran against Clinton.
This is a person with no real national record who could project themselves in any way they wanted without the burden of decades of votes cast in Washington to cloud the issues. Hologram candidates who can keep the focus on the issues are a lot more successful than traditional politicians. Obama was a hologram. So was Dubya.
Chris Johnson
@kwAwk: Cool, cool, I’ve successfully identified your position. Would you like to come upthread and argue with folks who are arguing that Trump is in fact super powerful and unbeatable, and that the Dems must run with Kamala Harris? It appears to be a strikingly different take on the matter.
For what it’s worth, I think your proposition is closer to the truth of the matter, but that only reinforces why Biden/Harris is the way to go. In particular, you’re advocating for a person with no national record, one-hopes-no-baggage, and no MONEY. That’s a big fuckin’ ask.
kwAwk
@Chris Johnson: I’d be happy to have that discussion. A big part of Trump appeal to the right is this non-stop need by people on the left to react to every stupid thing he says. He’s a master button pusher. When he doesn’t feel like he’s getting enough positive attention he seeks out negative attention. Too many people in the media and on the left are too happy to give it to him. People on the right eat that shit up.
I think Joe Biden is a great President. In ordinary years, we’d be best to stick with him. But his age is getting to him and he isn’t showing himself to be an effective campaigner this cycle. I get the notion that he’s trying to be the anti-Trump and not be an attention whore, but it’s time to turn it on.
Nancy
I’m late to the party err comments and no one will read this so I can just say I like statements that begin with Jesus Fucking Christ. And yes, yes, and yes. We are surrounded by opportunistic douches, these so called Dems.
I like Joe and Kamala is just fine with me.
And I’ll end this thread with
Fuck this Shit.