Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

When they say they’re pro-life, they don’t mean yours.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Nothing says ‘pro-life’ like letting children go hungry.

The real work of an opposition party is to hold the people in power accountable.

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Trumpflation is an intolerable hardship for every American, and it’s Trump’s fault.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Cancel the cowardly WaPo and set up an equivalent monthly donation to ProPublica.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

If ‘weird’ was the finish line, they ran through the tape and kept running.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about it’s history.”

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Republicans don’t trust women.

You are here: Home / Elections 2024 / TGIFriday Morning Open Thread: We Shall Not Be Moved By Trifles

TGIFriday Morning Open Thread: We Shall Not Be Moved By Trifles

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TGIFriday Morning Open Thread 11

(Mike Luckovich via GoComics.com)


Reader Interactions

359Comments

  2. 2.

    OzarkHillbilly

    FYI:
    ‘Once-in-a-lifetime event’: rare chance to see explosion on dwarf star 3,000 light years away

    In what is being called a “once-in-a-lifetime event”, light from a thermonuclear explosion on a star has been travelling towards Earth for thousands of years and it will be here any day.

    T Coronae Borealis (also known as T Cor Bor, T CrB, and the Blaze star) will be as bright as the north star (for those in the northern hemisphere). Dr Laura Driessen, from the University of Sydney’s school of physics, said the Blaze star would be as bright as Orion’s right foot for those in the southern hemisphere.

    A recurrent nova, T CrB becomes visible about every 80 years after a thermonuclear explosion on the surface of a white dwarf about 3,000 light years away. The dwarf sucks up hydrogen from a neighbouring red giant, and that causes a buildup of pressure and heat that eventually triggers the explosion.
    ………………
    The first recorded sighting of the Blaze star was in 1217, when the abbot of Ursberg, in Germany, saw “a faint star that for a time shone with great light”, Nasa says. It was last seen in 1946.

    NASA’s page on this phenomenon.

    Sky & Telescope’s star chart.

    Now back to your regular programming.

  3. 3.

    zhena gogolia

    Great roundup! Love the Uncle Joe poster. I need that for my lawn.

    Penzey is still not bringing himself to support our president. He can go fuck himself.

  4. 4.

    Scout211

    Thanks, AL. Your morning posts are a nice way to start the day.

    Do we really want, as President, a man who will disobey a direct order from the New York Times Editorial Board?

    🤣

  5. 5.

    Albatrossity

    One of the candidates is old. One of the candidates is scary. Our institutions have handled presidents who are old. Our institutions currently have no way to deal with a president who is scary.

  7. 7.

    cmorenc

    @Albatrossity:

    One of the candidates is old. One of the candidates is scary. Our institutions have handled presidents who are old. Our institutions currently have no way to deal with a president who is scary.

    They are both old and scary, but one of them is vastly scarier than the other because he’s a monster.  And the other is also a bit scary, but simply because he’s old and sometimes shows it.

  8. 8.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Scout211: ​
     

    Do we really want, as President, a man who will disobey a direct order from the New York Times Editorial Board?

    Especially when they come at you with that “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM??? look. How dare anyone question them!

  10. 10.

    lowtechcyclist

    @opiejeanne:

    Penzey, the spice company guy?

    Yeah, that Penzey.  Pretty disgusted with him right now, and I don’t dare mention his name to my wife, who’s been hooked on his spices for years now.

  12. 12.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    I’m looking at that NYT editorial about not voting. In my head, I head John Lewis: “the vote is precious. It is almost sacred. It is the most powerful nonviolent tool we have in a democracy.”

  14. 14.

    cmorenc

    Did people just completely erase the Howard Stern interview of Biden from their memories? Am I going crazy here?

    Vastly more people saw the Thur debate than the Stern interview.  That’s exactly why Biden’s State of the Union address was so effective (up until Thur night) in dispelling the “too old” meme – vastly wider exposure to vastly more people.  Front page headline vs side note.

  15. 15.

    Baud

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Well, the author is a MAGA so the polar opposite to John Lewis.

    Also, he’s lying. He’s going to vote for Trump. A bunch of gullible people will learn that after the election.

  16. 16.

    Betty Cracker

    Anyone got a link to Penzey’s statement or whatever? A quick Google search didn’t turn up anything.

  17. 17.

    opiejeanne

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I like that quote from Jean-Michel Connard, about who is discouraging you not to vote.

    That editorial in the FTFNYT though, fat chance keeping us from voting. We were both raised in Republican households, and learned very young that you always vote, always.

  19. 19.

    cmorenc

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I’m looking at that NYT editorial about not voting. In my head, I head John Lewis: “the vote is precious. It is almost sacred. It is the most powerful nonviolent tool we have in a democracy.”

    Not voting is a vote for “whatever” – holding one’s breath and pouting because you dislike the alternatives, but you’re going to get one or the other of them anyways.  Similarly, voting for a 3P candidate because you dislike the realistically available two alternatives – has never historically resulted in the winning party respecting your protest vote or adopting the policies your 3P candidate represents.  You are defaulting making the actual choice to other voters who cast their ballots for one or the other of the two major party candidates.  That will not change until the US adopts ranked choice type elections, which neither of the current two major parties will happily allow because their monopoly on power would be broken.

  20. 20.

    Albatrossity

    @cmorenc: I don’t think old=scary.

     

    As I said. we have had old presidents before, and the institutions built up over the years have been able to deal with that situation. Is it scary that Biden might falter and have to hand over the presidency to Harris? While I am sure that some folks find that to be scary, it is not unprecedented, and not scary to me.

    There are no precedents for Trump, and so far, none of our institutional guardrails (impeachment, losing an election, the SCOTUS etc.) have managed to blunt his scariness. On the contrary, they have just emboldened him and made him scarier.

  24. 24.

    cmorenc

    @Albatrossity:

    As I said. we have had old presidents before, and the institutions built up over the years have been able to deal with that situation. Is it scary that Biden might falter and have to hand over the presidency to Harris? While I am sure that some folks find that to be scary, it is not unprecedented, and not scary to me.

    Speaking to the choir here about the Biden age issue and his competence to make critical decisions, but we don’t seem to be the median public view on how people are reacting to the age issue.

  28. 28.

    MinuteMan

    Do we really want, as President, a man who will disobey a direct order from the New York Times Editorial Board?

    As John Oliver might ask: Why is the Karen Times still a thing?

  29. 29.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Media Matters posted an *interesting* study .

    Top newspapers fixate on Biden’s age

    Over the past five months, five of the top US newspapers have published nearly 10 times as many articles focused just on Biden’s age or mental acuity as focused on just Trump’s

    The study was for the period January 15, 2024 through June 17, 2024, so predates the debate. Click over to the article just to see the graph. It is striking. The whole brouhaha was a setup.

  30. 30.

    Starfish

    @zhena gogolia: Does it really surprise that Penzey is not supporting the President?

    There are people in left wing bubbles who cannot imagine Democrats losing if they mess around with who the candidate is at this point in time. People who live in rightwing bubbles or in purple states have no such luxury.

  31. 31.

    TBone

    Gawds bless you, AL!  In your honor, I was listening to Keith Richards sing ‘Tell Me Straight’ from the Stones’ new album Hackney Diamonds (that means broken glass).

    I found today’s Jonathan Pie as my reward!  Goes great with cantaloupe…❤️

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aYMy2qdNPF0

    I can’t say enough good things about this video clip!!! 🤣

    Oh. My.  It’s …

    arousing!  🤩🤣💪🇬🇧

  33. 33.

    Ken

    @rikyrah: Wanna bet that over the next few days it will come out that the op-ed writer is actually a member of some Republican campaign committee?  The NYT does have a history of that, with their diner safaris that just happen to bump into the local Republican county party’s monthly brunch outing.

  34. 34.

    MazeDancer

    @Starfish: Yes, it does surprise. Penzey is a love and peace guy. I have the mugs to prove it.

    Besides that, it’s stupid marketing.

    I can live without Crooked Media and Tim Miller. But not so sure about Penzeys Spices.

  36. 36.

    Nukular Biskits

    @O. Felix Culpa: That pretty much confirms this:

    As media, we consistently proclaim that we are just reporting the news when in fact we are driving it. What we cover, how we cover it, determines often what Americans thinks is important and *how* they perceive these issues yet we keep pretending it is not so. If Americans don’t recognize the crisis our democracy is facing, that’s not their fault, it is ours.

    Ida Bae Wells

  40. 40.

    Nukular Biskits

    Given I live in a blood red state (MS), most of the hand wringing I hear about Biden comes from others online, not in person.  And, given a lot of those around me in real life are probably going to vote for Trump or not at all, their recommendations about Biden get immediately deep-sixed.

    Still … I have to wonder WTF are those people thinking, proposing that Biden pull out.  Who TF do they think would command the same level of support, competence and compassion?

  41. 41.

    SteveinPHX

    @OzarkHillbilly: Thanks! Just forwarded this to my kid studying space stuff (working on doctorate in astrophysics) at U. of Western Australia in Perth. We talk about these things on What’s App when he has time.

  43. 43.

    opiejeanne

    @Starfish: Can you link us to something specific about Penzey not supporting Biden? Because I can’t find anything where he says that.

  44. 44.

    H.E.Wolf

    @Ken: @rikyrah: Wanna bet that over the next few days it will come out that the op-ed writer is actually a member of some Republican campaign committee?​

     It came out already. He’s a Michigan resident, voted in both 2020 and 2022, and graduated from is a Catholic who is connected with an extremist, far-right Catholic college that was involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection.

    Twitter link (using nitter.poast.org):
    https://nitter.poast.org/capitolhunters/status/1808915574728372500#m​

    ETA: corrected an error.​
     
    2nd ETA: corrected another one! Thank you, Kay.

  45. 45.

    Another Scott

    @zhena gogolia: Meh.  He probably got freaked out by the relentless ooolllddd doomerism.

    Made me look.

    His July 3 thing on FaceBorg seems very good to me.

    He’s walked the walk for a long time. Let’s not throw him under the bus just yet.

    123 days to go.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  48. 48.

    Starfish

    @opiejeanne: I was taking zhena’s position as a given when I made that comment. I don’t know what Penzey’s position really is.

    I just expect everyone will have “bad” politics sometimes, and there are some people who are very good at something that is not politics who will have bad politics all the time.

  52. 52.

    M31

    that tweet from NYer in Florida? “wait until you hear about the Republicans plans for your retirement at 65″?

    Reagan and Alan fucking Greenspan already raised it to 67

    now they want it to be at least 70

    ‘they’ being people who never worked a real day in their lives

    pity the poor plumbers and carpenters who wrecked their knees so you could poop in comfort

  55. 55.

    Geminid

    In Euro news, the UEFA just handed Merih Demiral a two game suspensin. The Turkish defender flashed the controversial “Grey Wolf” sign after his second goal against Austria Tuesday night. This will keep Demiral out of tomorrow’s Quarterfinal against the Netherlands, and the Semifinal if Turkiye advances.

    President Erdogan plans to attend tomorrow’s match. It’s in Berlin, and he’ll have his frown on.

  57. 57.

    Baud

    @M31:

    I don’t disagree, but I wish I were confident the plumbers and carpenters were with us. But I think it’s just Ozark.

  58. 58.

    rikyrah

    Woke up drenched in sweat. Didn’t understand until I checked the weather.

     

    87% humidity 😒😒😒😒😢😢

     

    I can make it most times with a fan, but I turn on the AC to get rid of the humidity

  59. 59.

    Suzanne

    @Kay: One of the more interesting cultural developments of recent years is how the Evangelical right and the Catholic right are all friendly now. They’re aesthetically the same, and that’s what matters more to them.

    I have to say, I remember reading about the 1960 election as a teenager, and how freaked out everyone was about potentially having a Catholic president, and that attitude instantly felt like a sign of a huge generational divide. Like, I know tons of right-wing religious people (having grown up in “the most conservative city in the U.S.”)…… and I absolutely can’t imagine Catholicism being a disqualifying factor for them. I heard so much racist shit. Literal white supremacy….. but, like, the fact that anti-Catholic sentiment existed definitely felt like an anachronism.

  61. 61.

    Kay

    @M31:

    It really is a basic misunderstanding of the nature of physical work. But I hope everyone understands they know people who do physical labor will still stop working before 70 – they know they’ll have to retire prior to 70 and take a reduced benefit. They’re hoping to rip them off when they’re between the ages of 62 and 70, when they’ll die.

    It’s a wealth transfer from lower income to higher income. Higher income collect longer.

    My position on Social Security cuts is “no”. That’s the only answer. They can find the money somewhere else.

  62. 62.

    rikyrah

     

     

    BMB Empower Network (@BmbEmpower) posted at 0:06 AM on Fri, Jul 05, 2024:

    #WhiteDemocrats, are you seriously still pushing to “replace #Biden” and ignoring our #VP? It’s incredibly disrespectful. The $230 million that #BidenHarris have on hand can only be used by Biden or Harris. So you’re suggesting we switch them out, put one of these great #governors in a financial hole to raise millions of dollars, and then try to convince other #Democrats and people to #vote for them with only two months left after the convention? Yeah, that’s a guaranteed loss and we’ll end up with #trump back in office with #project2025. Im #RidingWithBiden and #KamalaHarris and the rest of this so called democrats need to fall in line!!!

    https://t.co/Xu1RWk9qjq
    (https://x.com/BmbEmpower/status/1809091390350979392?t=Lo97jYLfvZvwEdOEYwLmdQ&s=03)

  66. 66.

    MazeDancer

    @Betty Cracker: Pod Save America and the World boys have been instant and loud about dumping Joe.

    Jon Favteau was in a 2 day battle with just about all of Twitter. Ben Rhodes was disgusting.

    Tim Miller went ballistic for days.

    Used to like them all. But they are all deleted, unsubscribed, and blocked now. Not sure when they will recover.

  67. 67.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Suzanne:

    Like, I know tons of right-wing religious people (having grown up in “the most conservative city in the U.S.”)…… and I absolutely can’t imagine Catholicism being a disqualifying factor for them. I heard so much racist shit. Literal white supremacy….. but, like, the fact that anti-Catholic sentiment existed definitely felt like an anachronism.

    If we really establish a Christian theocracy, Catholic vs. Protestant enmity will come back. And Catholic vs. Catholic and Protestant vs. Protestant. (Actually the latter is still around, since the alliance is largely between the right wings of all of them vs. their own liberals.)

  69. 69.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @opiejeanne:

    I just re-read all the emails from Penzey’s since the debate, and the only thing that even comes close is this (my bolding):

    While having coffee yesterday with Jeri I received a voicemail from Penzeys customer Claire. We listened. It was a really good voicemail.

    Claire liked yesterday’s email about this weekend’s anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising which, more than any other event, set the LGBTQ+ movement in motion. But I know a lot of you didn’t read that email because Thursday’s debate left you more wanting to curl up into a ball than it left you wanting to open emails.

    Yes, it was a setback, but no, if he actually had dementia or Alzheimer’s his people would have found a reason to get him out of the debate. And this election is bigger than Joe Biden or even Donald Trump.

    This one is about saving our democracy and our planet’s environment by keeping Republicans out of power until they work through the religious nationalism that’s gotten hold of them. Joe Biden, his team, his ultimate successor all do that. We wish we weren’t here, but we very much are here and we are still on the best route to our destination.

    And thank you, Claire, for your voicemail. Your words made us cry, too. Thanks.

  70. 70.

    Hoodie

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: The sleuths at LGM say the dude lied about not voting and they simply changed the title from “why I don’t vote” to “why I won’t vote.” The only plausible reason why the Times publishes guest editorials by some right wing nobody is that they getting pressure from owners who are in the bag for republicans.  Even when the guy gets exposed for lying it’s meaningless because he’s a nobody. The Times doesn’t suffer and they’ve done their part to catapult the propaganda.  The Times does just enough “journalism” to keep its mostly liberal readers on the hook, with sweeteners like wordle, crossword puzzles, recipes and urban lifestyle fluff.

  71. 71.

    Kay

    @Suzanne:

    True. Some Catholics really resent it. They think Catholics have an intellectual (and older) tradition than evangelicals and they resent that evangelicals have consumed Catholicism.

    It’s interesting. I told you the Catholic ladies in my book club have turned against school vouchers. They were sending their kids to Catholic schools to keep them away from the public school rabble. Now the public school rabble is coming in with a voucher. They’re furious about it. They say the school is no longer Catholic. It’s just a poorly funded private school with high teacher turnover and no etxracuriculars. Oh, well, they shouldn’t have cannabilized another public entity, like they did public hospitals.

  73. 73.

    Bupalos

    @cmorenc: yeah, I don’t even understand what’s going on here. There may literally be zero people here that would be appropriate targets for this gusher of material arguing Biden being too old isn’t as bad as Trump being a complete disaster. Of course.

    I guess they feel that clapping harder here can somehow affect “the media narrative” which in turn can change the marginal voter. It’s profoundly unlikely.

    honestly some of the straws being grasped are a little sweaty. The Howard Stern thing for instance was in fact a little odd in tone. Not stern’s usual voice or meter, and if I remember he thanks him for being like “the father of the country” or something.

  74. 74.

    zhena gogolia

    @Betty Cracker: There is no “statement.” There’s just a thundering silence about the whole matter, which speaks volumes since he’s always blowing his mouth off about everything.

  75. 75.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Kay:

    It’s a wealth transfer from lower income to higher income. Higher income collect longer.

    That’s a feature, not a bug, as far as the more well-to-do conservatives are concerned.  The hoi polloi conservatives are too damned set on “OWNING TEH STEWPIT LIBTARDS!” to really understand that they’re supporting policies that are detrimental to their personal well-being, IMHO.

    My position on Social Security cuts is “no”. That’s the only answer. They can find the money somewhere else.

    The most effective thing to address Social Security (and Medicare) shortfall is to eliminate the FICA cap (is it still called that?).

    Update:  Matt McIrvin beat me to it.

  77. 77.

    trnc

    @O. Felix Culpa: Over the past five months, five of the top US newspapers have published nearly 10 times as many articles focused just on Biden’s age or mental acuity as focused on just Trump’s

    That all sucked, but at least it wasn’t difficult to refute before the debate. The debate validated every one of those stories in the minds of some voters, so now Biden not only has to make it through 4 months, we have to get past the possibility that it could happen again at a really inopportune time.

  78. 78.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    It disgusts me. They know damn well these people won’t collect if they’re forced to wait until 70. They’re robbing them and redistributing their contributions to well- off seniors. Just straight up stealing.

  79. 79.

    zhena gogolia

    @Betty Cracker:
    This was his immediate response. Since then, there has been noise about how terrible the Republicans are, but no support of the president.

    Who knows what comes next? My general thought is at least here in Wisconsin, where the national winner may well be decided, incumbency is always good for five points. To throw that away when debates have never previously swayed votes seems something to be most cautious about.

    Trying to sell someone new and seemingly coming from very far away from the values of the rural Wisconsin voters who may well decide this election will be a very steep climb. Let’s not go on that hike unless we have to.

    ETA: I asked him if this was a veiled reference to Harris, and he said, no, Newsome. That was it. Sorry my ETA is ending up in the blockquote.

  81. 81.

    Almost Retired

    @Kay: Somehow I got on Hillsdale College’s mailing list.  I get a glossy brochure every other month.  If I so desired, I could go on a Hillsdale-sponsored trip to the “Holy Land” (West Virginia?) under the tutelage of Hinsdale experts who will explain the source of and the solutions to the current conflict.  Is there such a thing as a GoFundMe for trolls, because I would totally help sponsor one.

  83. 83.

    Another Scott

    @Matt McIrvin: I think that the guy at AngryBear did a series a few years ago about Social Security funding and how complicated it is.  For example, increasing the SS trust fund increases the federal debt.  (Because the money doesn’t sit in a vault, it is spent now and flows back into the economy, and Uncle Sam sells a bond, IIRC, that must be paid back later.).  SS funding needs to increase, benefits need to increase, and the retirement age needs to be lowered, not increased, and disability needs to much more easily available, and people getting benefits need to be able to keep them if they have a marginal income from working, and on and on.  But this stuff is complicated.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  85. 85.

    opiejeanne

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thank you. I looked at his Facebook page and his July 3rd post was about the disastrous USSC  declaration of immunity for presidents, and voting for democrats in order to save democracy.

  86. 86.

    Baud

    Instead of raising the Social Security age, why don’t we just execute people when they get old? I saw that once on a Star Trek TNG episode.

  87. 87.

    Kay

    I was helping with a rather complex small business bankruptcy the other day which we’re filing as a personal bankruptcy and we wanted to try using this health insurance expense we had read about. So I was reseaching that and I came upon the exception we plan to try and guess who slipped it into the 2005 bankrupcy reform bill? Ted Kennedy. I smiled.

  89. 89.

    zhena gogolia

    @Betty Cracker: They’re reasonable for someone who doesn’t really care if Trump wins in November. I’m beginning to think that includes a lot of people here.

  90. 90.

    moonbat

    @OzarkHillbilly: Thank you for this! I keep in touch with my sister and niece through astronomical events. We each report on what we can see from where we are on the planet.

  91. 91.

    Suzanne

    @Matt McIrvin:

    If we really establish a Christian theocracy, Catholic vs. Protestant enmity will come back. And Catholic vs. Catholic and Protestant vs. Protestant. (Actually the latter is still around, since the alliance is largely between the right wings of all of them vs. their own liberals.)

    I’m not sure of this. Maybe I’m persuadable. The rise of “nones” and “spiritual but not religious” people is a fundamental change in the landscape, and that is a larger threat to them, I think.

    In my experience, even a lot of those right- wing Catholics and Evangelicals don’t actually have strong feelings about the doctrinal differences between them. They are united by love of patriarchy and that’s been enough to hold that alliance together.

  92. 92.

    Another Scott

    @Hoodie: He’s not a one-time guest.  He’s been writing for them since 2021.  FTFNYT knows who he is, it’s why he was given a platform to write for them.

    It’s always worse than it appears with these guys.

    Grr…,
    Scott.

  93. 93.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Another Scott:

    Interesting the part about SS does impact the federal debt.

    It was always my understanding that since both SS and Medicare had their own dedicated funding streams, neither directly impacted the federal deficit/debt.  Hadn’t considered the impact of bonds, etc.

    If you find that link to that piece, please share it.

  94. 94.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    Instead of raising the Social Security age, why don’t we just execute people when they get old? I saw that once on a Star Trek TNG episode.

    Isn’t that the Project 2025 plan?

  95. 95.

    Kay

    @Almost Retired:

    That’s so funny. They have a big mailing list! When I worked at the post office in this poverty stricken tiny town as an “OIC” (temporary postmaster) I would see the newsletter. Hillsdale is expensive! I don’t think we had all those graduates out on the rural route in the trailers :)

    Maybe! But I doubt it.

    I went to the wedding of two graduates at a campus venue once, decades ago – we joked that they sat all the liberals at one table. It really seemed like they did.

  96. 96.

    moonbat

    @O. Felix Culpa: That so many here are falling for it, I find really depressing. Almost makes you feel like the normies who don’t follow politics obsessively are better off.

  99. 99.

    UncleEbeneezer

    RFK Jr offered Snowden a pardon. Snowden’s endorsement followed. Neither that quid nor pro will occur. But the model was first forged by Trump and Assange. Assange leaked Russian-hacked emails to help Trump defeat Hillary Clinton, but then Trump welched by conditioning his pardon on Assange falsely denying Russian collaboration.

    Assange told the London court hearing his extradition challenge that Trump offered him a pardon on the condition that he deny Russian involvement in the 2016 election campaign leaks regarding the Clinton campaign.

  100. 100.

    Bupalos

    @Starfish: a lot of people here are going full troika. They’re in a panic and don’t know it.

    By the time we’re done here anyone not actively affirming that the debate triumph guarantees victory of great virile leader gets stuffed with own spices, cooked and served to glorious students.

  101. 101.

    Josie

    @zhena gogolia: ​ Please stop and think about what you are saying. Don’t reject people who do not love Biden as much as we do. I have supported him since Harris dropped out, but I welcome those who are voting mainly to save democracy. We need every supporter we can get, even those who are mainly voting against Trump.​

  103. 103.

    opiejeanne

    @Matt McIrvin: This is true about the split among mainline Protestants. The United Methodist Church has finally and very painfully been split over the issue of ordaining gay pastors. The UMC down the hill from my house is now a community church, but I’m not terribly surprised because when we visited shortly after moving here I noticed something was off. The pastor preached the most timid and bland sermon I’ve ever heard, as if he was afraid of offending the congregation. There were no young people, no teens, and one adult male was wearing a t-shirt with something about guns and his right to them.

    I checked the other UMC and on their Facebook page is a photo of the pastor and everyone else wearing rainbow shirts.

    In order to separate from the UMC, there needs to be a 70% vote in favor by the active congregation, and they have to pay for half of the value of the church property they use. There’s a church  in Fountain Valley, Orange County, CA that is whining mightily about that payment, since they owe the UMC $3 million and have an active congregation of only 50. Tough beans, say I.

  105. 105.

    SFAW

    @Baud:

    That mofo gets column inches, while DougJ is truth-telling in the wildernesss.

    PS: Before I actually looked for the author, I thought the xeet from Houthi and the Blowfish was a DougJ contribution.

  106. 106.

    Suzanne

    @moonbat:

    Almost makes you feel like the normies who don’t follow politics obsessively are better off 

    They absolutely are. Zero question.

  107. 107.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @M31: ​

    Knees, backs, shoulders, hands, lungs….. Next time I walk across the room I’ll be reminded of something else.

  110. 110.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @opiejeanne:

    Yeah. I’m not seeing any indication of doubt, let alone hair-on-fire hysteria, from Bill Penzey. I, too, would love to know where that originated.

    Okay, in one subsequent message I’ll admit he did say something like “Democracy can be messy,” so I guess I’m going to have to throw out my entire spice rack now. //

  111. 111.

    Another Scott

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Amazingly, Google hasn’t broken this search for me – it was actually on the first page of results!

    AngryBearBlog.com (from 2011):

    Now ‘Intragovernmental Holdings’ is what OMB calls ‘Debt held by Government accounts’ which in turn “means the debt the Treasury Department owes to accounts within the Federal Government. Most of it results from the surpluses of the Social Security and other trust funds, which are required by law to be invested in Federal securities.” So the commonly expressed opinion that Social Security Trust Funds are not counted in that total $14 trillion of debt cited in the MSM is dead wrong, they constitute $2.6 tn of that $4.6 tn of ‘Intragovernmental Holdings’ or 18% of the total $14.3 tn in Public Debt. In fact Social Security is by far the biggest creditor the U.S. has, with Treasury holdings double those of the Fed and two and a half times that of our largest foreign lender the Chinese.

    ‘Public Debt’ is not precisely the same as ‘Debt Subject to the Limit’ but for all practical purposes it is the same $14 tn plus, for those interested Treasury supplies the following in their FAQ

    […]

    With the conceptual background set, lets see how Social Security Trust Fund Operations interact with the Debt Limit.

    And the answer is simple, though a little counter-intuitive. If Trust Fund principal balances go up in any given year due to a surplus of income over cost adding new offsetting Special Treasuries then so does ‘Intragovernmental Holdings’ and so in turn ‘Public Debt’. On the other hand if in any year total cost exceeds total income including interest, the flow of offsetting Special Treasuries is reversed, then Trust Fund principal goes down and in turn so does Public Debt. In between those two outcomes is a series of years where income EXCLUDING interest trails cost, but the accruing interest covers the gap, in which case the rate of principal increase is slowed and so the rate of growth of total Public Debt due to increased amounts of Intragovernmental Holdings.

    Put all of that together and what do you get? Short term cuts in Social Security benefits absent any changes in revenue INCREASE the rate of principal accumulations of Intragovernmental Holdings and so ADD TO DEBT SUBJECT TO THE LIMIT. And the same is true for any benefit change starting before the projected date the Trust Funds hit their maximum, which right now is about $4.2 tn in 2023.

    Which is why holding Social Security hostage to this year’s Debt Limit is simple bullshit. one has nothing to do with the other, and any attempts to start phasing in benefit changes via changes in the index (as B-S would starting in 2012) makes total Debt Subject to the Limit HIGHER and not lower. In fact far from giving our children and grandchildren a break it would absent other changes just time shift debt repayment forward in time while making the principal balances and hence ultimate payment amounts larger. It is all more Bait and Switch, just sophistry using ideas about seeming fiscal rectitude to screw over worker-retirees starting ten years out.

    (But such a move would reduce ‘Unfunded Liabilities’, which opponents of SS wrongly equate to ‘Debt’. They aren’t but that will be the subject of a later post.)

    Cutting benefits increases the debt. Increasing the size of the trust fund increases the debt. This stuff is complicated – it’s not “kitchen table” economics.

    HTH!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  113. 113.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: ​
      A lot of misogynists in construction. The racism was getting better. Slowly. Like molasses in winter.

  114. 114.

    Ken

    @Baud: Instead of raising the Social Security age, why don’t we just execute people when they get old? I saw that once on a Star Trek TNG episode.

    30 sounds like a nice round number, and has precedent in Logan’s Run.

    I’m sure if we search the SF literature we can find other ideas for this iteration of the Torment Nexus.

  115. 115.

    Bupalos

    @moonbat: Are they falling for the media’s evil conspiracy plot, or we’re they always secret fifth-collumn scum just waiting for their chance to subvert our iron will?

  116. 116.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @rikyrah: Good lord that’s awful!  It’s gonna be 102 here with 53% humidity and it’s gonna be miserable.  Fortunately we have a date with the Beach Bus that will take us to Santa Monica where it will be in the high 70’s and beach!  But just knowing when we come home it will still be roasting here is depressing.  We have a week of mid-high 90’s in store and it’s ugh…

  118. 118.

    Almost Retired

    @Kay:  That’s funny!  Years ago we went to a neighbor kid’s wedding.  Both were graduates of BIOLA college (The Bible Institute of Los Angeles).  There was assigned seating.  We soon figured out that all the known liberals were assigned to one table.  In the back.  We would have rebelled by dancing provocatively, but there was no dancing.

  119. 119.

    Kay

    @opiejeanne:

    Thanks for the explanation. My daughter and her family joined a Methodist church. Both their children were christened there.  It’s very liberal. I knew there was a split but didn’t know the mechanism or process. It’s funny – her husband grew up Methodist and she did not and she’s the one who gets everyone out the door to church. Converts are always more committed.

    I’m happy for them. I think it’s terrific for kids to have any kind of community outside their immediate family.

  122. 122.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kay: Ah yes, the law of unintended consequences. Guess they thought they were immune to all that shit they threw at the fan.

  123. 123.

    Bupalos

    @SiubhanDuinne: Penzey is a secret wrecker. Don’t trust anyone who says “over the age of.” Or even words like “age” or “years” or “American electorate.”

    Head in the sand! Eyes on the prize!

  125. 125.

    opiejeanne

    @Kay: Oh, that’s hilarious. They’re anti-voucher because the rabble will attend.  There have always been non-Catholics attending their precious schools, because they were perceived to be better than public schools. It really irks me that people who criticize public schools don’t work to make them better, and may not even be correct that the schools are not great. They may not have ever visited their local schools at all.

  126. 126.

    Glidwrith

    @Albatrossity: Our systems are built for power to change hands, the institutions strong enough to not depend on any one person.

    But apparently a sick fucker can infect/infest those institutions, requiring a mass mobilization of the much larger body politic.

    Biden’s just old.

  127. 127.

    Betty Cracker

    @zhena gogolia: Sounds like you’re saying every Democrat who isn’t convinced and publicly proclaiming that Biden is the best path to beating Trump is indifferent to the fate of American democracy. Respectfully, that’s nuts. It also implicates a large plurality of our coalition.

    There are bad faith actors out there, but IMO, the vast majority of people who are clamoring to replace Biden are doing so because they are terrified that he can’t win now. I think the same is true of people who are insisting that only Biden can win (and accusing anyone who disagrees of being a closet fascist, ratfucker or Russian operative).

    Terror is driving the conversation. Both groups are right to be terrified because Trump is a fascist monster, but I wish they’d extend a little grace to one another. We’re on the same side.

  128. 128.

    jimmiraybob

    @Starfish: “Joe Biden is the oldest president we have ever had.”
    Setting records wherever he goes!  Go Joe Go!​ Now I turn to the record setting economy

  131. 131.

    Princess

    This tweet: “We underestimate how much of the “Biden is too old!” is projection from people slightly younger than him.”

    This. Most of the people I see who I know who are Biden-skeptic Dems are white men, a little older than I am. I have low-key started to wonder how much their feelings about Biden are a proxy for concern with their own diminishing powers.

  132. 132.

    Suzanne

    @opiejeanne:

    There were no young people, no teens, and one adult male was wearing a t-shirt with something about guns and his right to them. 

    Yeah, there is a huge generational fall-off. It’s rough. We attended a very LGBTQ+-friendly Methodist church in Tempe for years. It was a bit of a unicorn, founded by a pastor who was one of 28 Methodist pastors who left Mississippi during Freedom Summer under threat for signing “Born of Conviction”, which was a statement opposing segregation and Jim Crow.

    We have looked for a church here that is similarly inclusive and skeptic-friendly, and haven’t really found one. The youth programs are almost nonexistent at this point.

  133. 133.

    Trivia Man

    @Almost Retired: My dad signed me up for the Hillsdale newsletter before he died, i glance at it occasionally. My impression is that its the only thing the RWNJ have that even approaches scholarly. The essays  have a predictable slant but use citations and some actual support for their ideas instead of just fear, confusion, and lying.

    Cherry picking and straw men for sure but in every issue i will find at least  one reasonable nugget or thought provoking concept. Plus i agree that it costs them money and supports the post office do i let it keep coming.

  134. 134.

    sdhays

    @Albatrossity: One of the candidates is old. One of the candidates is scary.

    Sorry to @ you, but this drives me insane. Both of the candidates are old AF!

    I know you know that, but I feel like that’s part of the message needed to push back. We can’t concede that we have “the old candidate” just because his opponent is 4% younger. Trump couldn’t walk a mile with the other G20(?) leaders several years ago and needed a wheel chair golf cart to make the trip. He didn’t have the physical stamina for the job then, let alone now! (And that’s, of course, leaving aside mental and moral capacity which is even more important but seems to be ignored).

  135. 135.

    satby

    @MazeDancer: You and I have both been pushing back hard on Twitter (as have thousands of others) and I think it’s starting to have an effect, but we need more allies:

    Norman Ornstein@NormOrnstein

    Washington Post the same. It is a shocking dereliction of fundamental journalistic responsibility
    My quote post reply:

    Sharon Barrett (she, her) @sbarrt

    35m

    We’re counting on ethical journalists like you to help push back hard. This is a deliberate attempt by the major media players to subvert democracy.

  136. 136.

    zhena gogolia

    @Betty Cracker: At this point, there is no way to replace Biden and win. We have to win. There is no evidence that he is in dementia. The whole panic has been whipped up by the New York Times and the cable networks. I do not trust them. I trust my own judgment. Millions of people voted for Joe Biden to be the nominee. Anyone who is pushing to replace him against his will is trying to disenfranchise those people (including me). We are not going to take that lightly. It will be a disaster.

    We will have a Putin-style dictatorship by this time next year. But Joe Biden is old, so I guess it’s okay.

  138. 138.

    Jeffro

    that last tweet about how voting is like vaccination is awwwwwesome, AL!  Thank you!  I will be using that one for decades to come (knock on wood ;)

  139. 139.

    Jeffro

    Btw speaking of “voting works” – Wisconsin’s newly-sane Supreme Court just reinstated ballot drop boxes.

    Woot!  Cue wingnut tears in 3, 2, 1…

  141. 141.

    satby

    @Nukular Biskits: here you go, another gift of Reagan: Since 1983, every US President has borrowed from Social Security to pay for government expenditures. Reagan changed the funding.

  142. 142.

    Ken

    @opiejeanne: Tough beans, say I.

    Yes, quite a lot of former-UMC churches are in the Finding Out stage. Another common problem is finding and paying pastors, since they no longer automatically get a pastor appointed by the denomination, and aren’t plugged into the denominational health and retirement benefits system.

    I try not to feel too much schadenfreude, especially since six years ago it looked like the split would go the other way, and LGBTQ-accepting congregations would have to leave the denomination. (Though I recall a certain amount of “then let them leave” from the conservatives at that time.)

  143. 143.

    Kay

    @opiejeanne:

    Our public school, which is 50% low income and underfunded, is objectively better than the Catholic school. We have better teachers. They don’t pay teachers anything, so they have huge turnover. It’s just a market. If you want o be a teacher in my county you can make 10k more at the public schools – we get better applicants.

    I think Catholic schools relied on a very educated free labor force – nuns. That was the “secret sauce” – free labor by women who were educated but couldn’t work anywhere else. Once they lost that they just became underfunded private schools. The model is grounded on women working for nothing. The minute women had better opportunities they fled to pursue them. They had the temerity to demand pay for work.

  144. 144.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Almost Retired:

    Somehow I got on Hillsdale College’s mailing list.  I get a glossy brochure every other month.

    I am too, as “Rufus Firefly” so obviously I did it deliberately. Hail, hail Freedonia!

  145. 145.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: Just needling you about Cole’s “Except Baud. Fuck that guy.” comment yesterday. I know he was just f’n with you.

  148. 148.

    CaseyL

    I’ve been emailing and social media bombing as much as I can. I just don’t know how to extend my reach, since Letters to Editors to any MSM outlet are about as effective as farting into the wind.

    I’m telling people, among other things, that the MSM is doing to Biden what they did to Hillary – in fact, it’s what they’ve done to every single Democratic Presidential candidate, as far back as Al Gore, but it really reached its peak with Hillary.

  149. 149.

    Suzanne

    @Princess: That’s interesting that that’s what you see. I see more people in my own age cohort (I was born in 1980) saying it. I will note that a bunch of them said it back in 2020, too, and voted for him anyway…. so I am crossing my fingers that negative partisanship works for us. But that’s why I push back on the assertion that the media fully created this. We’ve been hearing about Joe Biden’s age for a while. Shit, back in 2016, I remember people saying that, if he ran, he would be getting up there in age.

  150. 150.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @satby:

    Thank you for fighting the good fight! I’ve been doing the same with various friends.

    The Media Matters study shows with numbers just how wickedly lopsided the FYFNYT, WaPo, and other MSM reporting has been on the matter of Biden’s age, long before the debate. Having set that up as a “concern,” they’ve now gone into overdrive to drive him out and disenfranchise millions of Democratic voters. That this would likely hand the election over to the Felon would be merely an accidental outcome, I’m sure.

  151. 151.

    moonbat

    @satby: And everyone made fun of Al Gore — in his supposedly DISASTROUS debate performance, no less — for saying he was going to put Social Security funding in a locked box.

    Then they put Bush in office and he used it to pay for his Iraq War.

    We’ve played this game before, people.

  152. 152.

    Kay

    @zhena gogolia:

    There is no set of circumstances where this happens “against his will”. That’s why the primary voters aspect of it isn’t discussed. It’s either voluntary or it doesn’t happen. The discussion has boundaries.

  153. 153.

    Bupalos

    @zhena gogolia: you’re taking a wildly unsupportable opinion, insisting it’s a bedrock fact, and going from there. We CAN win changing Biden out and we CAN win sticking with him. We don’t actually know which would turn out better. A lot of us are persuaded changing him out is in total the better play. I think the arguments are better especially as regards risk going forward, and flipping the age issue on Trump.

    I think we all should also understand unless something major happens to Trump, he’s probably going to win here either way. We’re talking about raising bad odds.

  156. 156.

    cmorenc

    @Bupalos:

    I guess they feel that clapping harder here can somehow affect “the media narrative” which in turn can change the marginal voter. It’s profoundly unlikely.

    Exactly.  BJ is a progressive echo chamber.  A very good and informative one with many insightful people worth listening to, but nonetheless the joke about this being a not-quite-to-10,000 blog is accurate.

  159. 159.

    satby

    @Suzanne: look for a Unitarian Universalist church. Lots of refugees from other faith traditions, lots of inclusion.

    I am not a member, but if I had kids I would join for the benefit of the youth program, very inclusive, affirming, and prioritizes kindness and community.

  162. 162.

    Jeffro

    @Betty Cracker:Terror is driving the conversation. Both groups are right to be terrified because Trump is a fascist monster

    this, right here, all day every day.

    @Betty Cracker

    I wish they’d extend a little grace to one another. We’re on the same side.

    this too, 110%

    I’m for keeping out country out of the abyss.  I need every Dem and a majority of the blessed “independents” and a few never-trumpers too.  Let’s all keep our – and our country’s – real enemies in mind at all times.

  163. 163.

    cmorenc

    @Bupalos:

    I think we all should also understand unless something major happens to Trump, he’s probably going to win here either way. We’re talking about raising bad odds.

    Actually, Harris may prove to be a surprisingly awkward and difficult opponent for Trump.  Suddenly, he’s now the elderly person in the race, and given his tendencies, is going to have a hard time keeping himself from insulting her in ways that will greatly offend non-MAGA female voters.  And an overwhelming portion of non-MAGA voters want someone other than Biden or Trump, and she provides that (albeit she is tied to Biden and his record, for better or worse).

    Nevertheless, let’s not get ahead of ourselves unless and until Biden decides to step out.

  164. 164.

    oldgold

    @zhena gogolia: . “The whole panic has been whipped up by the New York Times and the cable networks.”

    No, this was whipped up by Biden’s dismal debate performance.

    If the ABC interview goes poorly today, it’s probably a done deal – he’s gone.

  165. 165.

    Suzanne

    @satby: I’ve checked out the local UU Church a few times. My neighbor works there. It’s…. fine. A lot of nice older white people….like, Mr. Suzanne and I felt like we stuck out. Very few young kids for our own kids to make friends with. The youth programs are not strong. That’s really the issue for us….. we want them to find strong friendships among people of like mind.

  166. 166.

    Chris Johnson

    @zhena gogolia: Oh, hey, I was beginning to think literally everybody else had pied him!

    Can’t blame them. WOOF. Maybe start another nym, Bupalos? That one’s burned.

  167. 167.

    Kay

    @zhena gogolia:

    That’s fine.

    I’m in the camp that says we shouldn’t cull all of the doubters and insist they (we, I have no idea what the better route is) have been somehow duped. This is a bad idea. You’re going to need every one of them no matter what happens! It isn’t personal. They want to win. They disagree on how to do that.

  168. 168.

    TBone

    @satby: my mom did that for us when we were little kids (before school age) and she needed to get into a community (get us kids away from my grandparents house if only for a few Sunday hours).  They had a place for kids to just play in a sandbox the whole time 💜 which is how I got religion 😆

  170. 170.

    Ohio Mom

    @Almost Retired: We are also on Hillsdale’s mailing list and know exactly how we got on it. A very bad person at Ohio Dad’s synagogue sent Hillsdale the membership directory.

    I never liked her, the first time I met her, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. She married into a family that helped found the congregation and still gives a fair amount of money so she feels very entitled. And people tend to kowtow to her because of that.

    I try to spend tne few moments I am tossing the newsletter in recycling enjoying the fact that Hillsdsle is wasting a few pennies on us.

  171. 171.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: Some DEMs think changing horses in mid-stream is suicide. After the debate some DEMS have begun to think NOT changing horses in mid stream is suicide. Like it or not, their numbers are growing. And like it or not if those numbers reach a critical tipping point we will all have to decide what we do next.
    Myself, I’m in Joe’s camp, at least until I see more than just a bad night on a debate stage. But the fact of the matter is I am just one small data point.
    Whatever happens, I will support the DEM nominee and the party as a whole because the alternative is unthinkable.
    (to clarify, I think this is all much ado about nothing, until it isn’t. But what I think is beside the point.)​

  172. 172.

    Kay

    @Suzanne:

    Fundies have really beat religious liberals there. My 4 year old grandaughter is sometimes the only child in Sunday school.

    I told a magistrate I like that my daughter’s girls were being christened in a Methodist church (knowing she attends one) and she just beamed – “oh, we SO need young people”. I felt bad for her. She’s a wonderful person.

  173. 173.

    zhena gogolia

    @Kay: Somehow the Republicans have been able to agree to support their rapist criminal babbler liar with no defections.

  174. 174.

    satby

    @cmorenc: BJ is a progressive echo chamber.

    Well, Twitter isn’t at all, and yet the blowback against the “replace Biden” crowd is huge. And not only from people I follow (Kay). In fact, most I don’t, and never heard of. A lot of you arbitrarily handicapped your own social media voice leaving Twitter, yeah I get why, but now a lot of the push and pull of the shaping of news is being openly fought over in there and you’re mainly missing it except for AL sharing with you.

  175. 175.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @satby:

    Reagan changed the funding.

    AND raised the retirement age AND starting taxing SS benefits.

    Fuck Ronnie.

  176. 176.

    Another Scott

    @sdhays: “Yeah, I’m old.  But you know what, TCFFG and I could have attended HS together.  But he got sent off to military school instead, so make of that what you will…”

    As I’ve harped upon earlier, one can’t somehow win bad-faith arguments from the GQP.  One can’t dwell on their framing, one has to turn it around and make one’s case instead.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  178. 178.

    Kay

    @Ohio Mom:

    Although I love the postal service and am glad they’re paying to send the mailers, I bet they are using the mailing list to show donors they have a big reach. All political groups use their lists that way. The list is a fudraising tool.

    So in this instance I would say if you don’t like Hillsdale get off the list. They’re fundraising off you.

  179. 179.

    Betty Cracker

    @zhena gogolia: You’re right that we must win, and for now, I agree that sticking with Biden gives us the best chance. But I can envision scenarios where that might change, i.e., if Biden tanks in the polls or stumbles badly in the next couple of weeks.

    If a scenario emerges where Biden looks certain to lose and drag House and Senate candidates down too, he’ll probably step aside himself. He knows what’s at stake too. It’s a scary, crappy situation, and I wish we were in a drama-free election with a better media ecosystem, but here we are.

  180. 180.

    opiejeanne

    @Suzanne: Happily, that other UMC with the rainbow t-shirts has a lot of young people and teens as well as a healthy number of older members.  Part of  that age drop-off in WA may be driven in part by the dropping population of children in general, but it’s been an issue for a long time. When I was a teenager we had what I jokingly called  ecumenical volley ball: the Methodist and Baptist and Lutheran and Presbyterian kids would visit each others’ youth groups to play volleyball. They were on different weeknights, and the games all happened before the actual meetings so we could leave before getting any Baptist cooties. The Church of Christ up the road had a “coffee shop” instead of volleyball. They were breathtakingly liberal, making us feel a little nervous just being there, but their youth group invited us so we went and had a good time.

  181. 181.

    moonbat

    I think everyone’s sincere concerns have been well entertained for a solid week now. The Biden camp has made it clear that he’s all in so continuing to beat this dead horse at the behest of the FTFNYT only creates rancor and depression.

    Why keep doing it?

    The accomplishments enumerated in the Meidas Touch video in AL’s OP basically describe a 21st century New Deal that Biden enacted (while old!) under our very noses. Anyone who can accomplish that in ONE term in office, not three or four like FDR had, has my confidence.

  183. 183.

    satby

    @Suzanne: all churches are down in attendance. But there can’t be only 1 UU church in the area, can there? Ours similarly struggled, but recently started to grow with younger families. I would start by looking for LGTBQ friendly congregations, then you’re sure to find like minded people whatever the denomination.

  184. 184.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    Look, if Biden is going to drop out of the race, during the aftermath of the debate and the Supremely Deplorable Six deciding that “hey, monarchy now”, there’s a few things he needs to do first:

    Drone strike the Supremely Deplorable Six. Hey, they signed their own death warrants, so f’em.
    Drone strike TFG: Russian asset, traitor, crook, threat to the nation.
    Drone strike the publisher of FTFNYT. See #2.
    Resign before he can be impeached, so immune! Should add Muammar Gaddafi to the drone-strike list, to lock in the “forgetful old guy” defense (aka “Hur hur hur” defense).
    Harris hits the ground running, and appoints 6 new (good! sane!) USSC justices.

  186. 186.

    kindness

    This whole ‘Biden needs to resign’ meme reminds me of other moments in history.  You know, when the media could taste the rump of what they were chasing and it made them more frantic in going after said rump.  It isn’t only the media doing it.  Far too many ‘progressives’ & blogs are doing the same thing.  Seems to me it’s a power thing.  Those ‘progressives’ and the media think they are driving the movement because they see each other repeating the same idiotic talking points, and that re-enforces their notions they are important.  It has nothing to do with what is best for the country although they’ll never admit that.

  187. 187.

    Suzanne

    @Another Scott:

    One can’t dwell on their framing, one has to turn it around and make one’s case instead. 

    There’s an urge among some of “our side” to think that the media sucks (true) and therefore attempt to avoid engagement with it. To get some bullshit attack (Swiftboating, emails, whatever) and to try to ignore it until it goes away, to “deprive it of oxygen”. I don’t ever think this tactic works. Maybe when there were three television networks and everyone read the same newspapers. But not now. That whole trope about “lies run around the world before the truth got its shoes on” or whatever it is….. this is true.

  189. 189.

    Another Scott

    @Jeffro: Or, if one is worried that vaccines are somehow too “political” these days, one could go with something like:

    Voting is like taking out the trash.  It’s an essential part of life.  We don’t expect to have to somehow be “inspired” to take out the trash.  We don’t put it off because it’s too depressing.  We don’t demand that someone else do it for us.  We don’t belly-ache.  We, as adults, know that very bad things happen if we don’t take out the trash.  So every week, we spend a few minutes and we take out the trash.  It’s an essential job and we do it.  Voting by mail or on election day is like that.

    Probably too wordy.  ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  190. 190.

    Almost Retired

    @O. Felix Culpa:   Oh!!  I didn’t realize Social Security benefits weren’t taxed before St. Ronald “reformed” Social Security.

    I was in college when the SS age was raised, and I shrugged it off as a “whatever.”  Please do something about beer prices.  Which was the reaction they expected.  Now that I’m in my early 60s I pissed about those extra two years.

    I can’t say enough about how so many of our current woes can be traced back to the “Reagan Revolution.”  He was sort of the warm-up, opening act Antichrist.

  191. 191.

    Josie

    One thing that is lost in all of this is Jill’s reaction. She is a smart, capable woman who knows her husband better than anyone. If she is still all in, that should tell us something. I trust the two of them to make good decisions.

  194. 194.

    Ohio Mom

    @opiejeanne: The mainline churches were targeted by the vast right wing conspiracy. Really, I read that in the NYT many years ago. I wish I had kept the clipping (that’s how long ago that was, you clipped instead of bookmarked).

    They didn’t like the churches’ liberal stance and knew if they could get the various denominations to split apart, the endowments would be decimated, thereby weakening the established churches considerably. Their main weapon was amplifying the debate about accepting gay clergy and marriages.

    Didn’t help that liberal religion is on the downswing anyway.

  195. 195.

    Kay

    @zhena gogolia:

    Because they think he will win.

    Biden is underperforming the Democratic Party as a whole. He’s running behind the rest of our candidates. It’s an issue. If this were 2010 where Obama was in trouble but so were the Democrats, well, that makes sense and you circle the wagons. That’s a bad year for Democrats. This is not that.

    In this analysis they look at the specials and the midterms – the elections where Democrats exceeded expectations, as Biden NOT on the ticket. It’s the flip side of the “Trump needs to be on the ballot” argument on the Right for why they LOSE specials and midterms. It’s not illogical or insane. It’s a good argument. They also point to the generic ballot, where Dems are slightly ahead. If the Party were in trouble that wouldn’t be true. In 2010 R’s were up something like nine on the congressional generic ballot.

    I am 100% behind the candidate, whether Biden or Harris. I am 100% opposed to anyone BUT those two, because that’s suicide. But I’ll discuss within those boundaries.

  196. 196.

    Chris Johnson

    @Another Scott: It’s also good to remember that you cannot get the last word on somebody who’s punching a clock to post.

    Let’s assume charitably that we’ve got folks who take their cues from such folk, because to believe otherwise would be like, I don’t know, believing the New York Times was compromised and not the truthfully honest paper of record after all.

    And that could never happen!

    The only way I ever get the last word is by posting in extremely dead threads because I’ve got stuff to do and simply can’t be around all the time.

    I’ll settle for having a word at all.

  197. 197.

    Jackie

    To join in it’s too hot chorus, this is my forecast for the next week in southeastern Washington!🥵

    Today
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 99. Calm wind becoming northwest around 6 mph in the afternoon.

    Tonight
    Clear, with a low around 66. South wind 5 to 7 mph becoming light and variable after midnight.

    Saturday
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 101. Light and variable wind becoming northwest around 6 mph in the afternoon.

    Saturday Night
    Clear, with a low around 65. North wind 5 to 7 mph becoming calm after midnight.

    Sunday
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 105. Calm wind becoming southwest around 5 mph in the afternoon.

    Sunday Night
    Clear, with a low around 68.

    Monday
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 107.

    Monday Night
    Clear, with a low around 70.

    Tuesday
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 111.

    Tuesday Night
    Clear, with a low around 72.

    Wednesday
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 110.

    Wednesday Night
    Clear, with a low around 70.

    Thursday
    Sunny and hot, with a high near 105.

    Pray for our AC units!

  198. 198.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Matt McIrvin:

    There’s a cap on Social Security taxes. Just raise it. Problem solved.

    Exactly.  One of the [many] infuriating things about dealing with the right’s attempt to kill SS is the seeming inability to get this point across to the electorate so that the’ll lean on Congress to do this one simple thing.

    The fact it never happens always brings me back to the basic question of who Congress actually represents.  Oh wait, we all know the answer to that one.

  199. 199.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Almost Retired:

    Yes, taxation of Social Security benefits was signed into law in 1983 by the presidential gift that keeps on killing us, Ronald Reagan.

    Fuck Ronnie.

  200. 200.

    Josie

    @satby: ​
     My son and his wife attend an Episcopal church that is very LGBTQ friendly. I recently joined him in singing in the choir and feel pretty comfortable there. They also have a strong youth program.

  201. 201.

    Glidwrith

    @Trivia Man: As I recall, Hillsdale is the source of a bunch of rewritten history propaganda used by DeSantis in Florida, forcing teachers to use their material.

  202. 202.

    Suzanne

    @satby: There are really only two within 25 miles. One is about 5 miles away, and that’s the one we checked out. The other is about 20 miles away and I just can’t manage that routinely on a Sunday morning. (The entire Phoenix metro area had only two UU congregations, as well.)

    I am not saying that it doesn’t exist. But church competes with everything else that grabs our time….. the kids’ sports and work and other activities and all the other pressures of modern life. It took us a while to find the church we liked in Tempe, so I’m hoping we find something similar within our own community.

  203. 203.

    Trivia Man

    @satby: The OWL program (Our Whole Lives) is a very frank sex education class for kids and also includes much more content. Some public schools have even adopted it. Many Unitarian congregations partner with UCC congregations to get a larger group of kids.

  205. 205.

    opiejeanne

    @Ken: I remember that possibility, that it might go the other way, and it made me despair.

    On a happier note, a good friend quite a bit younger than I was just ordained in the UMC. She has a MFA in music from UCLA and decided to go back to school, at Fuller in Pasadena for Theology. She lives out past Lancaster in Rosamund so that was a major drive for her.  The Lancaster UMC has hired her as choral director.

    I forgot that the other thing that a congregation must do is pay their share of the pastors’ retirement fund. Another big chunk of change, but 50 people sitting on a $6,000,000 property and whining about the consequences of leaving does not make me sympathetic to their plight. By leaving they’re essentially a store-front church now that has been carried for years by the rest of the district.

  206. 206.

    Kay

    @zhena gogolia:

    Short answer- they think the Democratic brand is stronger than the Biden brand and they have quite a few data points to make that argument. Further, they think the Biden brand is weaker due to an appearance of advanced age and infirmity.

    I don’t recall this ever happening before, where the top of the ticket was running behind the Party. I think it’s uncharted territory. Suzanne said you could run a kind “the Democrats!” campaign to undergird any Biden weakness but Democrats have never done that. It’s such a big diverse country it would be very difficult to do.

  208. 208.

    satby

    @zhena gogolia: you know me, little sunshine spreader that I am 😂

    Seriously, Brian Stelter had to turn off comments on his posts, he was getting ratio’d so hard. They all are. Tapper was deleting earlier posts he made right after the debate. Fight’s FAR from over, and all voices need to be loud and consistent, but they’re ignoring the felon, especially the last Epstein reveals, the SCOTUS rulings, and Project 2025 to flog “Biden old” for a reason. And some of our side walked off the field before the final play.

  209. 209.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    Yes, taxation of Social Security benefits was signed into law in 1983 by the presidential gift that keeps on killing us, Ronald Reagan.

    Fuck Ronnie.

    So much can be traced back to 1980.

    Fuck Reagan.

  211. 211.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @zhena gogolia:

    I’m not sure. I don’t want Joe to step down, and I am beginning to think that Kamala might have a fighting chance to unite people against the Felon. But that’s just vibes on my part, no objective evidence.

  212. 212.

    Spanky

    @zhena gogolia:

    The whole panic has been whipped up by the New York Times and the cable networks.

    No love for the Washington Post? Those fuckers are all in.

  214. 214.

    Kay

    @zhena gogolia:

    I don’t know. We’re relying on negative partisanship anyway.

    If we can hold them together they’ll rally. I hope :)

    IN ANY EVENT, we can’t designate enemies on our side because we could also win Congress. We need them.

  216. 216.

    opiejeanne

    @Kay: I taught music to jr high kids for a year at a Catholic school, and the parents paid me directly. There were very few nuns teaching there, as early as the 1980s, and they were on the elderly side and pretty tough.

  218. 218.

    zhena gogolia

    @rikyrah: But Clinton had a blow job!

    ETA: The transcript of those girls’ testimony rings so true to who Trump is.

  220. 220.

    Suzanne

    @O. Felix Culpa: I think Kamala is fantastic. I think she has a lot of appeal. A lot of risk, too, and I don’t have a sense which is greater. That’s what makes this scary.

    I do think, in an election cycle in which Dobbs is a major issue, having a woman who has always been incredibly strong about abortion rights up against Trump…. is really compelling.

  221. 221.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @satby:

    they’re ignoring the felon, especially the last Epstein reveals, the SCOTUS rulings, and Project 2025 to flog “Biden old” for a reason.

    I wonder what that reason could be? [Strokes chin thoughtfully.]

  223. 223.

    Bupalos

    @opiejeanne: just entirely shut the fuck up? Or is there a particular line of argument that I need the shit the fuck up about?

    can I say that if Trump wins, as is probable, we’ll be faced with opposing the first major steps into Hungarian style democratic submergence. And thus need to be able to avoid a period of divided shock and panic where we serve the Trumpist ends?

  225. 225.

    Chris Johnson

    @zhena gogolia: That’s putting it strongly: these are desperate times, and I would not hesitate to vote for her. I WILL be voting for her, as a Veep. No reservations there.

    The objection isn’t that she would automatically lose, because she wouldn’t automatically lose. It’s that some of the people suggesting her (at all: sometimes it’s another name) aren’t doing it in good faith.

    They’ll suggest Harris, and if we did run with her the next BIG THING would be the sudden discovery that she’s black and a woman. That doesn’t mean she couldn’t win! It’s just another thing to be attacked over, that nobody making the suggestion mentions.

    I’ve seen Pete Buttigieg suggested. I guarantee you nobody would breathe a word about how he’s gay until he’s the nominee, and then that’s all you’ll hear until November. It won’t help that he’s married: that’ll be leveraged to make it worse. The only reason you’re not hearing it now is because bad actors are trying to get a good target in place.

    We could have voted for either of these folks in primaries, and there are people who did. God willing (I’m not religious but got raised Episcopalian, at a pretty lefty church), I’ll live to vote for either or both of them after Biden’s NFLTG term where he not only can’t run again but also has all manner of immunity designed for his rival…

    Win anyway. We’ll see a variety of options for ‘anyway’, and the simplest thing is to stick to plan.

  226. 226.

    JWR

    Okay, I caught both CBS and NBC morning news’ “Biden is old” hit pieces, (they’re always staggered that way, CBS and NBC), and I gotta say that while CBS didn’t cover themselves in glory, far from it, NBC was inarguably worse, pointing to something Biden said on the radio yesterday about having the first Black woman as VP, himself having served with Obama, and nominating the first Black woman to SCOTUS.

    I heard it once and knew what he said, but they just glommed all over Biden occasionally speaking too quickly and tripping over the occasional word as reason enough to go all “OMG he’s losing it it’s the END!” Screw these jerks with their unsourced stories and bloated paydays, which must be big enough for them not to hold all this alleged dirt for their next book.

  228. 228.

    satby

    @Trivia Man: yes, they had that program here, run by a married couple (she’s a nurse) and it was a great success.  I wish it was in schools, but it’s much to honest about human sexuality for that in Indiana.

  229. 229.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @rikyrah:

    US employers added a strong 206,000 jobs in June in a sign of continued economic strength

    Yes. Which Biden has accomplished despite being older than Methuselah.

  230. 230.

    satby

    @Suzanne: capitulating to the pressure campaign (and that’s what it is) would doom the ticket by depressing turnout on our side. Not Kamala’s fault, it would be a sign that when the chips are down, the wishy-washy party caves.

  231. 231.

    rikyrah

    Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) posted at 4:31 PM on Thu, Jul 04, 2024:
    Biden’s age and poor debate showing is obviously a legit story, but what we’ve seen over the last week is a hysterical feeding frenzy aimed at some combination of self-vindication, settling old scores, claiming a scalp, and the desire of some in the media to have Trump back in power. If Biden can’t campaign he should consider passing the torch, but the elite press (and especially the NYT) is desperately trying to will this into existence. And it’s really gross.

    (https://x.com/atrupar/status/1808977067456991718?t=01Emqgij1vNE5rVPzQgA5A&s=03)

  232. 232.

    Kay

    @JWR:

    I read it so listened to that part of the interview. Biden didn’t misspeak. They’re acting as if speech is writing, as if there would be commas. It’s a bullshit smear. You really have to work to misunderstand what he said.

    I agree political media are awful and malicious and have it in for Biden, but Democrats are not and do not.

  233. 233.

    moonbat

    @Chris Johnson: ​
    Exactly. They want to be able to pick their opponent. Why aren’t any of the politically savvy people on here asking the question: If Biden really is such a weak candidate and we stand to lose with him, why the hell is the opposition trying so damn hard to get rid of him? Why not just let us sail into the general with our weak, old candidate and kick our asses?

    I’ll tell you why. Their internal polling says Biden is going to kick Trump’s ass. Again. That’s why.

  234. 234.

    Gvg

    @Bupalos: Nobody can agree on who to replace him with. It should be Harris, but unfairly we all know racism and misogyny are a problem even in our party. And the stakes are high enough that many who really prefer her and trust her are afraid to risk it.

    Nobody else has even a slight edge, let alone access to the money legally.

    Panic and a lot of need would set up a no win fight. Even if party leaders were disciplined enough to make someone the unanimous choice, the voters are not going to be unanimous, it would splinter and cause panic ANd give heart to discouraged republicans.

    Not only does it need to be Biden, it needs to be a show of our strength and disdain for heavy handed tactics. We need to work through this and expose more normies to the dangers of panic and disinformation.

    I think one factor may be some people here have had family that had age cognitive problems and expect them, wheras other people have alert relatives the same age getting invitations to present papers on AI investments to prestigious places and bicycling miles each day. That may be why some people are predisposed to believe Biden is senile and others look at the record and say nah.

    i don’t care about the public speaking. I care about results. Biden is getting stuff done. We need more judges though.

  235. 235.

    rikyrah

     

     

    Cassandra the Anti-Nihilist (@WriterWarrior) posted at 2:38 AM on Fri, Jul 05, 2024:
    I had an epiphany tonight while talking politics with my family…

    The difference between Kamala Harris supporters and supporters of other ambitious Dems is stark:

    Harris supporters aren’t willing to gamble away democracy just to have her at the top of the ticket. Big picture.

     

    Cassandra the Anti-Nihilist (@WriterWarrior) posted at 2:43 AM on Fri, Jul 05, 2024:
    So, there hasn’t been much ego-stroking or dunking from Harris supporters, imo, because the vast majority recognize that the key to our nation’s collective survival is stability within the Democratic Party.

    Anything else is vanity. And a dangerous distraction.
    (https://x.com/WriterWarrior/status/1809130895967932825?t=Nld88FXq89JiXB9YR8Kamw&s=03)

  236. 236.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Chris Johnson:

    I’ve seen Pete Buttigieg suggested. I guarantee you nobody would breathe a word about how he’s gay until he’s the nominee, and then that’s all you’ll hear until November. It won’t help that he’s married: that’ll be leveraged to make it worse.

    Also too, he and Chasten are the parents of young twins, so prepare for a rash of “grooming” stories.

  237. 237.

    Ohio Mom

    Another change Reagan made to Social Security concerns “orphans.” Before Reagan, a minor child whose family’s breadwinner (i.e., Dad) had died got monthly benefits either through their High School graduation or through their college graduation. Reagan cut everyone off at after high school. That extra support that helped “orphaned” kids go to college was gone.

    When I hear people say, “Republicans won’t cut Social Security,” I always respond, “They already did!” And then I list raising the retirement age, taxing benefits and cutting off orphans’ benefits, with the caveat that there might be more examples, I only know about these three.

  238. 238.

    Trivia Man

    @TBone: I did that for my kids. Small Wisconsin town, my wife convinced my atheist self to suck it up and go regularly. She was 100% right. As nearly the only black kids in town, it was an entry into “oh, i know those kids. They go to church with me/ my neighbor/ someone i know.” Enormously helpful. Plus, 100 strangers agreeing to sit for an hour and think positive thoughts together is a good thing. And i enjoyed choir.

  239. 239.

    rikyrah

    LanaQuest aka RosaSparks (@LqLana) posted at 4:31 PM on Thu, Jul 04, 2024:

    Enough! We have had enough of women begging for medical care!

    Enough! We have had enough of women being forced to be walking coffins!

    Enough! We have had enough of old white male politicians making decisions for our families!

    Enough! We have had enough of children being forced to deliver babies!

    Enough! We have had enough of women being made to silently suffer as hospital ethics boards and lawyers decide whether we can have an abortion.

    Enough! We have had enough of being forced to carry nonviable fetuses!

    Enough! We have had enough of Republicans playing political games with our embryos!

    Enough! We have had enough of Republicans trying to take abortion pills away!

    Enough! We have had enough of Republicans trying to restrict travel when women and girls need medical care!

    If you have had enough then vote like it! #DemsUnited #VoteBlue2024

    (https://x.com/LqLana/status/1808976984896123030?s=02)

  241. 241.

    opiejeanne

    @Suzanne: United Church of Christ might be one to check out, if there’s one near you. They have had good youth programs in the past.

  244. 244.

    Joy in FL

    Annie Laurie, the post really helped me. Thank you for assembling all this wit and encouragement. I’m coming back to make screenshots after I get more coffee.
    Thank you!

  246. 246.

    satby

    L O L G O P @LOLGOP

    When you see the way the press is treating Joe Biden for aging in public, you see how they could treat Donald Trump for committing fraud, rape, espionage, and insurrection and never, ever will.

  248. 248.

    Almost Retired

    @Ohio Mom:  Republicans have always had it out for social security.  When I was in law school, I worked for the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles.  I was assigned to work on the remedy phase of a class action called Lopez v. Heckler.  The gist of the class was an unofficial (or maybe it was official) policy of automatically denying almost all applications for Social Security Disability, and requiring them to go through a purposefully cumbersome appeals process.  Money saved (or delayed)!  SS was forced to reopen thousands of denials.  I came by my cynicism early!

  249. 249.

    suzanne

    @satby: You could be right. I think it also could be energizing to a lot of people who don’t like Biden (and, quite frankly, have been saying so for a while) and were possibly going to stay home. From what I have read, that’s estimated to be about 8% of the electorate. I think that, in general but certainly not all the time….. the more excited side wins.

    I think the “mood” of the country is different than in 2020.

  250. 250.

    Ohio Mom

    I am trying not to give the Biden is Old! thing any extra oxygen but one thing that strikes me about zhena goglia’s comments is that when she is sounding the alarm about the U.S. falling into a dictatorship, she is doing so as an academic with deep knowledge about what life is like in totalitarian states.

    She has an appreciation that the rest of us may not have. Sure, I know I wouldn’t like it but the details are fuzzy in my imagination. Of course I’d like to keep my ignorance intact.

  251. 251.

    Josie

    @Ohio Mom: ​
     Glad to see you point this out. Thanks to Reagan, I could not access my late husband’s social security, due to my teacher retirement benefits, and the social security benefits to my boys stopped at their graduation from high school. I had to send them to college (without any help from social security) living on only teacher retirement benefits, which are not particularly generous.

  252. 252.

    Nukular Biskits

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    @satby:

    Reagan changed the funding.

    AND raised the retirement age AND starting taxing SS benefits.

    Fuck Ronnie.

    In no defense of Reagan, but he didn’t do this single-handedly.  Congress rightfully shares some (a lot? most? all?) of the blame here.

  254. 254.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Suzanne: It’s not that the Media “created” it.  This narrative was already in place in 2019 wrt to Biden.  Fans of other candidates were using it as an easy way to dismiss/smear Biden.  It was always disingenuous coming from Bernie and Warren supporters since they never applied the same concerns to them, despite both being no spring chickens.  As others have pointed out, Hillary got the exact same treatment even though Trump is similar age and has horrible health and Bernie was older and had heart problems.  It’s only ever a problem when the nominee is a mainstream Dem (Biden, Hillary).  Likewise, this bullshit, undemocratic fantasy of pushing aside the legitimate front-runner only seems to come up when the nominee is a mainstream Dem (Biden, Hillary, Gore).  When Bernie appeared to be cruising to the 2020 Primary win, I don’t remember anyone calling for a do-over.

    It’s all a result of a long campaign by the Media (aided and abetted by Progressives) to paint the Dem Party as old and out of touch.  Some members of our coalition have a bizarre fetish for fresh, new voices to the point where they end up being completely dismissive of the wisdom of Hillary, Pelosi, Biden.

    The Media knows damn well how to sow division in our coalition, because we constantly provide them a roadmap.  They look to Twitter (which is way more Progressive than our electorate, putting aside all the Nazis) and sees what trends to guide their anti-Dem goals.  They know where to look for Dem-bashing talking points that will get clicks.  All they’re doing is setting a match to the tinder we leave all over the forrest floor.

  255. 255.

    Ohio Mom

    @Almost Retired: Because Ohio Son is disabled, I have a fair amount of dealings with our local Socai Security office. This is anecdote but the staff there are fabulously good people. Knowledgeable, kind and good-humored, even though their job is mostly Sisyphean.

    The office is very understaffed, clearly on purpose to pinch pennies and make things harder for beneficiaries.

  256. 256.

    Another Scott

    @Suzanne: @O. Felix Culpa:

    Part of my take is that there’s never one-size-fits-all, One Weird Trick that will somehow make things better.  Politics is complicated, people are complicated.

    Another part is that we have no control over what the other team does.  They will have monsters calling people with fake audio telling them that they don’t need to vote, or the election is a different day, or whatever.  They will have monsters posting incessantly about Clouds and Shadows and all the rest.  They will try everything, no matter how monstrous, to win. We have no control over that.

    We can spend too much time trying to combat those bad-faith things, or we can mostly concentrate on turning out our voters.  I’m in favor of mostly making our case and not mostly fighting on their turf.

    Yes, counter the falsities – BidenHQ is doing that – but also make the case and do everything we can to turn out our people.  We can and must do both.

    Hillary lost because of Comey.  We shouldn’t forget that. 

    Kerry lost Ohio by 118,601 votes.  Maybe that was mostly voter suppression, maybe it was mostly something else. Dunno. I doubt that it was mostly Kerry not fighting back against the SwiftBoaters strongly enough.

    YMMV.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  257. 257.

    Kay

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    I love how you doggedly insist this is “Bernie” when the loudest voices insisting Biden will lose are Blue Dogs. 

    You can’t just slide by that! It happened.

  258. 258.

    Ohio Mom

    @Josie: Oh! Another example! My MIL has complained about the teachers’ retirement gotcha but I did not know it was a gift from Reagan.

  259. 259.

    delphinium

    @moonbat: Yeah, to me the utterly embarrassing and unprofessional hysteria of the media comes across as complete desperation that since they know Trump is by far the weaker candidate have to do everything they can to push him over the line. That is on top of the typical Dem bashing and for some (looking at you FTFNYT) the butt hurt that Biden won’t talk to them.

  260. 260.

    Kay

    In fact, Golden, a Blue Dog, not only announced Biden will lose because Golden has a bug up his ass that he doesn’t run the caucus, he announced Trump was not a threat!

    He undercut the entire Democratic message. Screwed every one of his colleagues in Congress. Just a pure, vindictive DICK move. That’s your Blue Dogs. Screwing the Party for the last 30 years.

  261. 261.

    evodevo

    @Suzanne: I hear Mariolotry stuff all the time out of the talibangelicals around here, especially from the SBC’s. They are convinced that Catholics are hell-bound, but I guess will hold their noses for the good of the right wing anti-abortion agenda…

  262. 262.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Bupalos:

    I don’t know this for fact, but I assume that ALL presidential campaigns have contingency plans should the candidates (both for president and/or veep) become suddenly unavailable due to death, illness, major scandal, etc.

    Having said that, I think it’s counter-productive in the extreme to keep insisting …nay … DEMANDING that Democrats immediately change nominees because REASONS!!!11!!!!

    I have yet to see any demonstrable evidence that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are not up to the task and, until I do, I will continue to support both.

    And, for those of you who keep insisting we MUST change, then it’s time you start producing lists of candidates who poll higher than Biden/Harris, already have the funding machine and $s in place to hit the ground running AND have personnel/resources ready to go.

    It’s July and the election is in November.  Omitting the concern trolls, the folks who keep demanding we change candidates had every opportunity to make their case for someone else months ago.  At the risk of being rude, it’s time to support the candidate we’ve chosen or STFU.  Screaming meemies about Biden’s age does nothing but push the rightwing narrative.

  263. 263.

    Jeffro

    @Another Scott: We, as adults, know that very bad things happen if we don’t take out the trash.  So every week, we spend a few minutes and we take out the trash.

    This part resonates.  =)

  264. 264.

    Suzanne

    @UncleEbeneezer: Yeah, I don’t see that, at all. As I noted on a previous thread….. our weakness is on our right flank, not our left. Biden is not in any danger of losing in Massachusetts, where Elizabeth Warren’s voters live, or in Vermont, where Bernie Sanders’ voters live, or AOC’s or Ilhan Omar’s or Ro Khanna’s districts.

    HRC lost Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Biden won those back. He will need to hold those again. Whether or not that happens is a question for those swingy voters in the middle, not annoying college students at UC Berkeley or Columbia.

  265. 265.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: I am 100% behind the candidate, whether Biden or Harris. I am 100% opposed to anyone BUT those two, because that’s suicide.

    Right there with you on this.

  266. 266.

    Kay

    I hope Democrats or some allied group are knocking out Kennedy too. That could be a productive thing to do. He adds risk. He sucks and is horrible – another Right wing rapist. Make him a non issue.

  267. 267.

    Kay

    @Jeffro:

    Plus, anything else has too many points where Republicans can sue. It won’t work. Off the table, as far as I’m concerned. Imagine what a nightmare if they got to one of their judges with some bullshit claim to keep us off the ballot?

  268. 268.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @UncleEbeneezer: I should add that in 2016, the smear-campaign that hurt Hillary most was obviously Emailz!  But again, while this was a GOP-hatched smear, the Media undoubtedly latched onto this one because they had seen so many Bernie supporters go all-in with it during the Primary.  My theory is that the 2000 election taught the Media assholes that if they want to push Republican smears of Democrats, the best ones are the ones that Progressives like Nader would happily spread and that generate lots of ratings.  Smears that only Republicans buy into won’t do the job.

  269. 269.

    Another Scott

    @suzanne: The insurrection was after the November 2020 election.  That, like Dobbs, like the gutting of Chevron, like saying the POTUS must be a King, and all the rest, are big factors in the coming election.  Much more than ooollllddd, IMHO.

    2012 – LATimes.com – Pollsters call on Obama to step aside, make way for Clinton.

    We’ve been here before, people.

    “Keep your head and everything will be cool.” – Todd Rundgren.

    ;-)

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  270. 270.

    Jeffro

    @Kay: it does.  Heck, even if the nominee is Harris, they’ll try.

    If he does decide to pull out, I halfway hope he also resigns and Harris is sworn in.  There is no way that even this corrupt SCOTUS would try to keep an incumbent President off of the ballot in an upcoming election.

  272. 272.

    Suzanne

    @Another Scott: Yeah, I might be there with you….. negative partisanship may be enough to overcome all of this. Fuck, I hope so. I don’t see the same excitement about Trump this year that I saw in 2016 or 2020.

    Did I tell you about how one of Spawn the Elder’s neighbors made a Trump wreath for her front door? Like, he inspired crafts. Totally normal! Not fucking weird at all!

  273. 273.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @moonbat:

    Exactly. They want to be able to pick their opponent. Why aren’t any of the politically savvy people on here asking the question: If Biden really is such a weak candidate and we stand to lose with him, why the hell is the opposition trying so damn hard to get rid of him? Why not just let us sail into the general with our weak, old candidate and kick our asses?

    I’ll tell you why. Their internal polling says Biden is going to kick Trump’s ass. Again. That’s why.

    A gazillion times this.  We’d seen some reports of internal GQP panic over their internal polling, no details, no sources, just quiet pieces of “they’re shitting their pants” and that trying to tie Gaza around his neck wasn’t having the impact they were hoping for.

    This gave them a new and different path, abetted by our failed Corporate Media, Feckless Dems and bedwetting Dems.

  274. 274.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Suzanne: I’m talking about who people vote for.  I’m talking about who keeps anti-Dem smear campaigns alive that give Independents, Swing Voters, Non-Voters etc., a reason to justify not supporting our candidate.  Everyone who publicly frets about Biden’s age (or has in the past) helped create this problem.  Regardless of their motivations, their party affiliation or their geography.  The world is flat with the advent of the internet and our actions and words travel well beyond our districts.

    My ill-advised Gore-bashing from the safety of Deep Blue CA was read by people in Florida who were just looking for a reason not to vote for him.

    Right now, these words I write here are reaching people all over the country and hopefully talking them down from their panic and convincing them to be smarter about how they criticize Dems.  If more people had argued against Hillary’s policies in 2016, instead of pushing GOP/Putin-approved, Crooked Hillary/Goldman Sachs/Emailz/RiggedPrimary bullshit, we’d be in a much better place.

  276. 276.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Ohio Mom:

    Another change Reagan made to Social Security concerns “orphans.” Before Reagan, a minor child whose family’s breadwinner (i.e., Dad) had died got monthly benefits either through their High School graduation or through their college graduation. Reagan cut everyone off at after high school. That extra support that helped “orphaned” kids go to college was gone.

    When I hear people say, “Republicans won’t cut Social Security,” I always respond, “They already did!” And then I list raising the retirement age, taxing benefits and cutting off orphans’ benefits, with the caveat that there might be more examples

    My wife was such an “orphan”.  Father was a pipefitter with an 8th grade education.  Died of a brain tumor halfway thru her senior year of HS.  The SS benefits enabled her to start school (she’s the physicist, optics engineer, electrical engineer and master electrician).  Fucking Reagan pulled that benefit on her halfway thru college.

  277. 277.

    gene108

    Trump’s right. If an entertainer can generate ratings or make best selling music or movies, the entertainment industry does not care about what the person does, until the #MeToo movement got noticed several years ago.

    Roman Polanski was still a member of the Academy of Motion Pictures until a few years ago.

    Trump just figured out the media operates like the entertainment industry, and has them excited about a Trump second term.

  280. 280.

    Bupalos

    @moonbat: It’s possible that running a candidate that polls say somewhere from 60-70% of the electorate thinks is unfit is a kind of suppression too.

    And possibly not. I think I get the other side here and I think it’s legitimate- it won’t state the opinion openly for obvious reasons, but it’s essentially “it’s us talking about this that is the problem. There is no actual problem, we are creating it.”

    There is an interplay between the reality and the discussion. That’s not something I’d deny.  Just consider that it might also be a credible opinion that Joe Biden’s unprecedented advanced age in this role is a very real problem whether we discuss how to solve it or just pretend it’s entirely meta and can be defeated by sufficient online denunciations and denials. It was a major electoral issue and a major ongoing electoral risk multiplier before it “went viral” with a high-profile event, that isn’t going to be unseen however much it gets called “one debate.”  And it’s not static with the overall risks (including Biden’s actual ability to project mental agility in future appearances) tending overwhelmingly negative. I think he’d need 5 or 10 performances of 2020 quality to tamp it back down to where it was 3 weeks ago. Which was again already in a pretty bad place.

    Have you sampled “normie” opinion on this…do you have wide interaction with people of different ages. Are you thinking about down ballot, are you thinking about party branding for the future? Political twitter and spaces like this are very selected spaces that partly exist to confirm comfortable things you already know. They take the general human aversion to uncertainty and multiply it by 100. They will always come around to a decision that the answer is obvious and that the only way others don’t see that is stupidity and mendacity and maybe conspiracy. They will always push out uncertainty. This is an algorithmic and psychological phenomena we need to be aware of.

    I respect and simply in terms of the 2024 presidential, might marginally tend towards the opinion that as of today, sticking with Biden gets us more votes than other options. With the balance of ongoing risks and other factors like down ballot and the longer term health of the party, I marginally tend towards hoping biden bows out tomorrow. What I would hope for this board is that more people can simply be open to the idea that there are valid opinions in both directions, that we’re all on the same team, and that we’re all going to work together in the end to get as many people as possible to vote team D no matter what.

  281. 281.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: I like your optimism!

    Yeah, for all their bragging about Trump being ahead or tied in polls, Republicans still seem scared shitless.  And that tracks with some of these results we’ve seen in special elections where Republicans have gotten grounded or had extremely close calls in Deep Red districts/states.

  284. 284.

    Bupalos

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: Your take here is that Biden was running away with “internal polling” and that to counteract that The Media in loose conspiracy with the Republican party conducted a psyop to convince people that Biden is too old?  How deep does that go? Would you consider that maybe they pumped oxygen-depleted air around Biden’s podium? Could they have snuck something in his latest booster shot?

  285. 285.

    Suzanne

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    I’m talking about who keeps anti-Dem smear campaigns alive that give Independents, Swing Voters, Non-Voters etc., a reason to justify not supporting our candidate. 

    “Independents” and “swing voters” don’t turn away from Democrats for the same reasons that Progressives criticize them. You think voters in Florida and Ohio and West Virginia (all places where Dems historically were more successful) are just disappointed in the Democrats for not being left enough? That they want Dems to push the Green New Deal even harder and they want more freedom and dignity for LGBTQ citizens and they are just disappointed that they didn’t fight harder for student loan forgiveness and they really want a ceasefire in Gaza?! See, this is where this argument completely falls flat for me. I think Dems lose in those places now because many older white voters have existential fear of a country not dominated by white Christian patriarchy.

    Right now, these words I write here are reaching people all over the country

    No, they aren’t. We’re just a group of (mostly) good people talking.

  286. 286.

    Eyeroller

    @JWR: I know I keep saying this, but speaking too quickly and tripping over words is typical for people with fluency disorders. If he’s using a teleprompter he’ll be able to see what the next words will be which makes it easier.  Speaking unscripted he’ll now and again stumble.  Those are not symptoms of dementia. But the press can’t be bothered to take that into account.  I knew this (Biden is senile) was a pre-existing narrative they were eager to dive into so I am not surprised at the media hysteria at all, but it really shows what they are.

  288. 288.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    Blue Dogs have come up as critics, yup, that’s not a surprise.  But they represent that neoliberal economic side of the party that has a lot of adherents in what the NextGen Blue Dogs call “new liberalism”.  It’s those folks who are making many of the same arguments we see here by the usual suspects, changing goalposts, etc.  It’s the same people that dominate the front page and comment section at LGM which is why their reactions over the last week were entirely predictable.

    The election is all about Hair Furor and his massive threat to US democracy.  Use that and Dobbs.

    And GOTV.  We win when *we* vote.

  289. 289.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Bupalos: If you really see us teammates stop insisting on these dangerous and offensive fantasies of nullifying our votes.

  290. 290.

    Marmot

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    My ill-advised Gore-bashing from the safety of Deep Blue CA was read by people in Florida who were just looking for a reason not to vote for him.

    Right now, these words I write here are reaching people all over the country and hopefully talking them down from their panic and convincing them to be smarter about how they criticize Dems.

    Goddamn yes. I will never stop being embarrassed of my own 2000 election bullshit. Now I work hard to rectify the damage I did.

  291. 291.

    Rusty

    @rikyrah: Even if it’s Harris (who would be my first choice!), I’ve seen good legal commentary that we couldn’t get or anyone else’s name on the ballot in a number of states including swing states.  It’s political suicide to switch candidates at this point.

  292. 292.

    Suzanne

    @Almost Retired:

    Trump Etsy is a scary place.

     
    JFC. I genuinely don’t even want to know.

    I put myself through reading Rod Dreher, FFS, to keep aware of what the lunatics are thinking. I don’t think I have the emotional fortitude for “Trump Etsy”.

    What the fuck. Not a cult of personality! Not insane!

  293. 293.

    Bupalos

    @UncleEbeneezer: Setting aside the opinion that your words are having the effect you believe…A key difference here between the mistake you made (as I understand what you are saying) and what is happening here is you were attacking the candidate’s fitness for the office.

    Suzanne or Momsense or I or anyone I’ve seen here don’t address at all Biden’s fitness for office. I think we take it for granted that, as he says, “he can do this job” of governing. We’re saying that’s not the job right now. The job right now is get enough votes to get that job.

    Like you’re hiring a candidate and their credentials look pretty great. But they don’t have reliable transportation. Their car broke down on the way to the interview and they can’t describe how they’ll address that, it’s just “look, I promise my car doesn’t break down all that much. It’s got problems now but mostly gets me there. And 4 years ago it wasn’t breaking down at all, so, let’s forget about the car ok?”

  294. 294.

    Captain C

    @Geminid:

    President Erdogan plans to attend tomorrow’s match. It’s in Berlin, and he’ll have his frown on.

    If he were Putin and Russia was playing, he’d demand to be put in as the starting center back, and be very flummoxed by the fact that the Dutch didn’t roll over and play Washington Generals for him.

  295. 295.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Suzanne: I literally know voters in PA, CA, FL, MI who are proudly “Independent”/NPA who refused to vote for Hillary because they just didn’t trust her.  They voted for Obama but then went to Johnson/Stein or didn’t vote in 2016.  They posted/shared memes directly from prominent Progressive/Bernie-supporters.  The notion that Progressive attacks on Dems somehow magically never reach these voters or influence them is wrong.  Just ask Putin.

  297. 297.

    Captain C

    @Baud:

    Instead of raising the Social Security age, why don’t we just execute people when they get old? I saw that once on a Star Trek TNG episode.

    Didn’t they also make a documentary about that in the ’70?  Logan’s Run, or something like that?

    ETA:  I see Ken beat me to it at #114

  298. 298.

    Bill Arnold

    @Bupalos:

    The Howard Stern thing for instance was in fact a little odd in tone.

    Oh for fuck’s sake. Can you spend at least a little time honing attacks on convicted felon Trump? That’s just pathetic.
    Watch some of trump’s recent speeches/rallys/interviews, or if you prefer, the “debate”. Work out a mental model of the entity man.
    Is he a stupid lying pathological narcissist/psychopath/manipulator (dark triad) who mentally huffs false garbage, is in early stages of some organic progressive dementia, and is now a convicted felon?
    Yes, he is.

  299. 299.

    Bupalos

    @UncleEbeneezer: How can I possibly nullify your vote? I marginally believe Biden should make the decision to withdraw. That would be him “nullifying your vote.”

    That seems as off base as me saying you’re violating my 1st amendment rights here.

  301. 301.

    E.

    Just stepping in here as a canvasser who talks to about 35 random normies a day and reminds them to vote D. The people I talk to don’t care about Biden’s age, or at least they never mention it. Right now they are mostly talking about the Supreme Court. Most conversations though, go like this :

    me: Hi, I am campaigning for . . .
    them: Is he Republican or a Democrat?
    me: Well, this is a non partisan race but he is a Democrats who cares about-
    them: He has my vote. Thanks for doing this.

  302. 302.

    Geminid

    @Captain C: Erdogan was a good footballer back in the day. But he’ll just watch the match, maybe flash the Grey Wolf sign if Turkiye scores a goal

    Ed. The Grey Wolf sign is made by sticking the index and pinky fingers up like ears and pressing the middle fingers and thumb together to form the wolf’s head. It’s illegal in a few European countries because of its asociation with violent Turkish ultra-nationalist groups, but not in Germany.

  303. 303.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Captain C:

    Didn’t they also make a documentary about that in the ’70?  Logan’s Run,

    Heh heh, now that’s a imagining that didn’t occur to me: documentary.

    It was only until decades later that when we got involved in cat rescue which often entailed hoarder situations, that the Capitol, where Ustinov’s character lived, must have smelled awful.

  305. 305.

    Bupalos

    @Bill Arnold: I think Trump is somewhat worse than that.  I think he’s an avatar of post-truth right wing populism that is on the rise across the globe. I think he’s out to break democracy.

    I think a lot of us are kind of “waiting for him to go away.” Waiting for The Media to stop helping make this unnatural thing happen. Trying to keep things as normal and calm as possible and wait for things to return to normal. I think it’s a really problematic mindset. There isn’t anything to return to. Now would be both a terrible and great time to stop trying to slowly tiptoe the crumbling bridge to the future and just start sprinting.

  306. 306.

    E.

    @E.: And for the record, I personally am terrified of the direction this country is going *and I am acting like it.* I think every person here who wants to make some risky and dramatic change to our ticket needs to get off their fucking screens and join me canvassing. “Have you sampled normie opinion on this?” one commenter wants to know. Well yes, yes I have. Come join me and do something about this problem.

  307. 307.

    delphinium

    @E.: ​
    Thank you so much for canvassing and reporting back on your experiences! It is very much appreciated.

  310. 310.

    Mousebumples

    @rikyrah: yay! So much easier to vote by mail when I can use a drop box! (and then I don’t need to hope DeJoy hasn’t ratfucked the USPS)

  311. 311.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    @Geminid: ​
     

    Good for the other 8. Their non-reaction is telling. It’s just like several of us have noted that Newsom (who I don’t like and as somebody here said “he’d drown his own mother to be president) has been all-in on Biden in the aftermath of the debate. Again, telling. And also important down the line for someone like him because people like me who push back against “new liberals” like him will cut him some slack because of his support now.

  312. 312.

    wjca

    @Bupalos: A lot of us are persuaded changing him out is in total the better play.

    But with a noticable shortage of “Here are the mechanics of how this works, without alienating huge chuncks of Democratic voters” or “Here is the alternative candidate that everybody (in the real world) will immediately** rally around.”   It’s all “some (unspecified) body else, somehow.”

    A year ago it might have been feasible.  I don’t think so, but it might have been.  Today?  No real world path to get there.

    ** And, given the calendar, it has to be immediately.   As in less than 48 hours, and probably less than 24.

  313. 313.

    Bupalos

    @E.: That would be my response. But these are “random normies” or you’re running GOTV on registered D’s? An effort I do join, BTW and will in the fall. Which still can be scary when they send you to households with D kids, where the dad (always the dad!) thinks you’re a brainwashing pedophile.

    The who-should-our-standard-bearer be is a different discussion.

  314. 314.

    Geminid

    @comrade scotts agenda of rage: The Blue Dog Caucus numbered 25 after the 2018 midterms. They were down to 17 by the 2021-2022 Congressional session and were a relable voting bloc for Speaker Pelosi. They lost a few more in 2022 and then six members left in January including Reps. Sherrill, Spanberger, Case and Correa. Incoming Reps. Peltola and Gluesenkamp Perez joined to bring them back up to 10.

  315. 315.

    Albatrossity

    @cmorenc:Speaking to the choir here about the Biden age issue and his competence to make critical decisions, but we don’t seem to be the median public view on how people are reacting to the age issue.

    Yep, I was trying to reframe the narrative so that choir members might be able to convince family and friends who also think that “old” and “scary” are equally disqualifying.

     

    @Starfish:  Joe Biden is the oldest president we have ever had.

    Yep, I actually know that already. He’s also the best president I’ve seen in my lifetime (dating back to Truman). And Trump was the  worst of my lifetime, and a viable contender for worst ever. If he is elected this year, he will also probably be our last president. Lotsa superlatives here, on both sides.

  316. 316.

    Eyeroller

    @wjca: ​The press had a ready-made attack line for Biden but will find something for anybody else. Especially Harris.

  318. 318.

    moonbat

    @Bupalos: As I said above, this opinion has been well entertained. No one is trying to take your sacred opinion away from you. The horse is dead, you can stop now.

  319. 319.

    Eyeroller

    @Mike E: ​ Gene108 was making an observation about how Trump manipulates the media. They want to write about entertainers and he entertained them. So yes, Trump was right about that.

  320. 320.

    Mike E

    @wjca: your deadline of viability for this political suicide candidate swap out will come and go and still bupalos will be the trolling chaos agent they clearly are, so your interaction with this commenter is duly noted.

  321. 321.

    Mike E

    @Eyeroller: oh sorry, I’ve moved on from them, cmorenc, oldgold among a few other commenters here. Ratfucking will not be tolerated by me, full stop.

  322. 322.

    Bupalos

    @wjca: There are a lot of drawbacks and risks and I absolutely acknowledge that. I do think we get a kind of “get out of internal discord” card because of Trump before November, so I do think whoever we got to by whatever process could work out. I think a lot of the rules people think they know are out the window.

    But I see way too much need for certainty in moving along AS IF there’s some kind of certainty in staying pat. There isn’t, that’s an illusion people are talking themselves into. Staying pat here is a huge risk and I don’t think folks are seeing that clearly. I don’t think there’s any attention to the other things we put at risk beyond the presidency running Biden an potentially having things further devolve. Since the narrative and accusation from the opposition is that we’ve been hiding a problem and lying about it, Biden doing this “I’m fine, never better” thing and us all acting like the whole thing is just a media/rightwing conspiracy substantially raises the risks of deeper damage to the party.

    Odds are Biden is going to not be able to turn around the narrative, that it’s going to continue to drown out efforts to get scrutiny for what Trump really means. Personally I think the odds are that in fact he further entrenches it, either by further real-time slips or by being stage managed to where it looks artificial. I’m sorry but to me what happened at the debate with a cleared schedule, time to prepare, and complete control of the mike is not something that “just happens.”

  323. 323.

    moonbat

    @E.: Thank you. I’ve signed up for postcard writing and my first batch of 200 is on it’s way.

    Less hand-wringing, more hands doing.

  324. 324.

    E.

    @Bupalos: I am canvassing people who have a history of voting. In my state there is no party registration. If you have some better ideas for me I am all ears. I am very aware there are many things I don’t know. And I act accordingly.

  327. 327.

    wjca

    @O. Felix Culpa: Yes, taxation of Social Security benefits was signed into law in 1983 by the presidential gift that keeps on killing us, Ronald Reagan.

    Not to give Reagan a pass, since I’ve never had any use for him.  But the Democrats controlled the House when that passed.  So, plenty of blame to go around.

  328. 328.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Bupalos:

    Odds are Biden is going to not be able to turn around the narrative …

    That’s a claim of fact that has no basis in fact or at least any hard evidence to support it.

    And it certainly will be difficult to fight that narrative with those left of center pushing it.

  330. 330.

    Bupalos

    @Nukular Biskits: Yes, this is an opinion. I believe that Biden will not be able to overcome this narrative. In my estimation, there are too many things working against it. And in my opinion one of those things IS NOT people online being too open about their estimates of these odds.

    But I do accept and understand that others do believe that Biden can overcome it, and/or that not discussing it is key to that.

  333. 333.

    Bupalos

    @Mike E: You’re welcome to cuss me, block, whatever. I get the reaction. We’re all freaking out however much we don’t think that’s what we’re doing.

    Also sincerely thank you for the legwork you’re putting in.

  334. 334.

    LNNVA

    @Albatrossity: And, if the other guy is elected in November, he will be older than Biden was when he was elected. He would not only be our first convicted felon but also our oldest elected president.

  335. 335.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Bupalos:

    You’re not really addressing the core of what I posted above.

    One should never ASS U ME, but what I’m getting from your ad nauseam about “WE MUST CONSIDER AND  DISCUSS ALTERNATIVES!OMG!!!111!!!!” is that you’re not willing to admit the only realistic option is to support Joe Biden.

    Again, if you have realistic alternatives, by all means, produce them. With publicly-verifiable evidence, polls, etc, as per what I posted here:

    And, for those of you who keep insisting we MUST change, then it’s time you start producing lists of candidates who poll higher than Biden/Harris, already have the funding machine and $s in place to hit the ground running AND have personnel/resources ready to go.

    It’s July and the election is in November. Omitting the concern trolls, the folks who keep demanding we change candidates had every opportunity to make their case for someone else months ago. At the risk of being rude, it’s time to support the candidate we’ve chosen or STFU. Screaming meemies about Biden’s age does nothing but push the rightwing narrative.

    I’m not against discussing the issue. BUT, w/ all due respect, that doesn’t appear to be what you’re doing here.  You are pushing a narrative that doesn’t have a basis in evidence or in support of anyone except those freaking out and, of course, those who wish to see Trump win.

  336. 336.

    Bupalos

    @Albatrossity: The way I’m discussing the issue with normies is to talk about an administration being a much bigger thing than 1 person. That Biden has put together an absolute top notch operation that has achieved incredible things against all odds, and that Joe Biden’s temperament and personality is about cooperation and team play. So that even if he did decline, that reality and those characteristics would kick in and we’d transition from strength to strength.

    I think a really terrible and risky line is “Biden alone can do it, and he’s absolutely fine.” Leave that malarky to the Trumpers.

  337. 337.

    Bupalos

    @Nukular Biskits: Harris I believe polls the same as Biden, no? I don’t particularly like her odds but I don’t think they’re worse than Biden’s and I don’t see any huge problem in going to her.

    Any of this is going to be conjectural, the reality is as soon as a move is made, things change in unpredictable ways. If Harris is in there I fully expect the racism of the campaign to surge, but I’m not going to predict how that plays out. Trump would suddenly be the one that might be too old to risk. Nothing stays static. Things aren’t even staying static staying pat.

    Also I promise you that a ton of the right and Trumpists in fact want Biden to stay in and talk about this whole thing as some kind of weird conspiracy to replace him that is going to fuck them over.

  339. 339.

    Bupalos

    @Nukular Biskits: I legitimately don’t understand what is being asked if that’s seen as a deflection.

    “tell me specifically what candidate.”

    “Harris. What’s the problem?”

    Deflection??!

  340. 340.

    Eolirin

    @Bupalos: Biden and Harris are the only people who can run, because there’s no mechanism to replace them that would work. If it’s not Biden it’s Harris. There’s no conversation to be had.

    And Biden has to choose to drop out, and he isn’t going to.

    So continuing to talk about the need is completely stupid and everyone should stop. It’s pure wishcasting.

    We could be spending all this time talking about how the convicted felon is unfit for office and should be pressured to drop out and it’d have about as much effect on Trump’s decision making.

    What I hope we see is for Biden to start talking very directly about his fluency disorder. It would do a lot more to reassure people who act in good faith if he spent time owning that issue and talking what it means and how it affects him. Because the overwhelming majority of his gaffes and stumbles, even in the debate, are very much in line with him having a stutter, but far too few people understand what that actually means. I think he becomes much more sympathetic when he stumbles a little if people have that in the back of their heads instead of y’know, dementia.

  341. 341.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Bupalos:

    If I missed where you were pushing for Harris to replace Biden as your alternative, then I apologize.

    Again, however, I don’t see a groundswell of support for such an idea. And pushing it advances no one’s interest except those who wish to see Trump win.

    Democrats who don’t want to see Joe at the top of the ticket had their opportunities months/years ago.

  342. 342.

    Citizen Alan

    @Starfish: I just had to insist that we open a #Politics channel in our Discord group for D&D because one of the players in our group is a 30-something cosplay Marxists who hates both Dems and Republicans because “blahblahblah Military Industrialist Complex” and I refuse to have my only safe space from hearing about Shitgibbon and the Nazi swine who support him. And I don’t think the gaming group would have survived if I’d just called the guy a fucking idiot in the middle of a game. And he’s not a fucking idiot. But he’s a Mississippi ex-pat who lives in Conneticutt and is disappointed he didn’t get a job in Seattle and he’s caught in a White Leftist Bubble.

  343. 343.

    Bupalos

    @Nukular Biskits: And I’ll cop to being one of those people that thought Biden should hang it up after the IRA, at the height of his success really. So how much of my take now is colored by that? Probably a lot, because I’ve been thinking for a while about  broader negatives. But as regards just the presidential contest, all along I thought this was almost insanely risky and abstracted from the fact that time moves forward and that aging is real.

    I can’t really accept the way people phrase and conceive of the options here, what they think they just absolutely know. If there’s one thing we should have learned it’s that we don’t really know what the rules are right now. We’re off the map. We’re abstracting from so many things and just kind of randomly choosing which rules are still eternal. I don’t even accept in this environment against this opponent that a brokered convention is a guarantee of anything.

  344. 344.

    Citizen Alan

    Suzanne:

    One of the more interesting cultural developments of recent years is how the Evangelical right and the Catholic right are all friendly now. They’re aesthetically the same, and that’s what matters more to them.

    To be fair, they are both in complete agreement when it comes to ignoring what Jesus actually said.

  345. 345.

    Citizen Alan

    @Nukular Biskits: IIRC, Reagan  directed the Social Security Administrator to start buying bonds as a way to offset the loss of revenue from his tax cuts and hide the budget deficit.

  346. 346.

    Citizen Alan

    @opiejeanne:  Control for poverty (i.e. compare private schools with public schools based on the number of students who live below the poverty rate) and public schools blow private schools out of the water. That’s before we get into the fact that private schools have no obligation to handle kids with disabilities.

  347. 347.

    Citizen Alan

    @Bupalos: You are talking about nibbling at our odds against a man who openly declares his intention to become a dictator and imprison if not kill his political enemies but the normies don’t know that because of the complete failure of every institutional safeguard for democracy that ever existed in this country. I believe removing Biden is completely unwarranted and, if accomplished, hands an advantage to our enemies who already have too many advantages. If Biden gives in and steps aside, then I will consider the 2024 election already lost and will begin to plan accordingly.

  348. 348.

    Citizen Alan

    @UncleEbeneezer: My personal theory is that the real purpose of 3rd Party runs is to suppress the vote. I think that for every person who voted for Nader or Stein, there were three others who bought into the idea that there is no real difference between the Dems and the GOP. But those three voters were also smart enough to realize that voting 3rd Party would accomplish nothing except as a performative gesture, and they were too busy or too lazy to drive across town on a work day and stand in line just to make a performative gesture.

    Also, I had an eye opening experience in 2016 when I asked an ultra-liberal friend who hated Trump and Hillary equally “who would you vote for.” And he said he was very interested in Eugene Pureyear, who I had never heard of until Google informed me he was with the Party of Liberalization and Socialization. And then, I understood. There really is no difference between the Dems and the GOP if your #1 policy goal is to completely destroy capitalism.

    For the record, I consider myself a Social Democrat, which means I believe we should have capitalism but regulate the hell out of it, which, in practice, makes me a committed Democrat.

  349. 349.

    JaySinWA

    @Suzanne: Did I tell you about how one of Spawn the Elder’s neighbors made a Trump wreath for her front door? Like, he inspired crafts. Totally normal! Not fucking weird at all!

    I’m imagining this as a funeral wreath. Probably not their intent.

  351. 351.

    Ruckus

    @Nukular Biskits:

    Another side of this is that shitforbrains is what, 3 yrs younger than President Biden? And showing he is worse at his age, his intelligence, and his lack of any kind of humanity whatsoever.

    I am only 6 yrs younger than President Biden and I am really glad I am retired. However, yesterday I had a very nice chat with a woman who lives in my complex and is over 23 yrs older than I am and I’d rather have her as president than shitforbrains. She is smarter, still rides around on her electric 4 wheel senior’s bike and was riding motorcycles till about 15 yrs ago. And she would make a far better president than shitforbrains. But then so would my last dog and he’s been gone for almost a decade.

  352. 352.

    seefleur

    @Kay: Golden is a huge black eye for the Democrats in Maine. I HATE having to vote for him – but being in the 2nd District, it’s so important to keep the GOP from holding all the reins. Janet Mills has been a huge disappointment – between her not being willing to work with the tribal groups on achieving sovereign status, and actively impeding getting state workers paid at a rate more comparable to private sector pay, I have not been thrilled with her. But I have to give her a point or two for not jumping in and pulling a Golden by not supporting Biden. At this point, Maine is disappointing, but I have to do everything possible to keep the Democratic Party in control. (Also, Austin Theriault is a putz)

  353. 353.

    SomeRandomFellow

    If you think Biden is too old to work wait until you hear about the Republicans plans for your retirement at 65 if they win

    67. Full retirement is already – ALREADY – at 67. Just so you know how old and foolish you sounded. (Okay, okay, it was a linked tweet, but geez, it’s been *decades* since they did a slow-raise of full retirement age to 67.)

    ETA:

    Voting is a lot like vaccination: it only works if enough of us do it, and the absolute dumbest motherfuckers on the planet try to talk you out of it.

    Thank you – that mouthwashed away the stupidity of “retirement at 65.”

  355. 355.

    Miss Bee

    @Starfish: Why does Bill Penzey’s position matter?  He’s spoken out relentlessly about his opposition to Republicans, and I assume that opposition still stands–it’s still clearly posted on the Penzey’s website.

  356. 356.

    Kayla Rudbek

    @Suzanne: yes, it infuriates me as someone raised Catholic that they have rolled over for the bastards who would have been supporting the Klan about a hundred years ago. There’s a reason why I haven’t been to Mass since before the pandemic started.

  358. 358.

    dnfree

    @Princess: Have you considered that “the people slightly younger than” Biden might know from personal experience, and the experience of friends and relatives, the reasons to be concerned?

    I’ve explained to my own children that I can no more explain to them what it’s like to be 80ish than they in their 40s could explain to someone in their 20s what the 40s are like.  Some things you have to experience to understand.

  359. 359.

    dnfree

    @zhena gogolia: My “panic” came from my personal observation of the debate.  It was a disaster.  He looked lost.  The improvement in the later part wasn’t that great and didn’t erase the first part.

    I’m watching the Stephanopoulos interview now.  Biden looks tense and he’s emphasizing his accomplishments while not answering the questions.  He’s defensive.

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