Asked @POTUS whether he can serve another four years, he says “I’m positive.”
He also told @andrea_shalal he’s “completely ruling out” dropping out of the race.
— Akayla Gardner (@gardnerakayla) July 5, 2024
The president addressed an overflow room of supporters at his WI rally where he doubled down on staying in the race.
Key note: He did not use a teleprompter for his remarks to the crowd. “This is the most dangerous election in U.S. history,” he said. pic.twitter.com/hdrKFIghCQ
— Akayla Gardner (@gardnerakayla) July 5, 2024
I see no teleprompter.
I see no medical emergency.
I see a kind decent and extremely successful president.
And anyone who wants to throw that success away is a goddamn fool.pic.twitter.com/FTuAF51Ysw
— Democrats in Array 🏳️🌈 (@DemsInArray) July 6, 2024
*********
Related, and yet not: This is a very important piece of legislation!
We welcome the proposed creation of a federal heat safety standard by the Biden-Harris Admin. This common-sense & life-saving rule proposed by @OSHA_DOL will, once effective, protect the health and lives of farmworkers who have no choice but to work during dangerous temps. 1/ pic.twitter.com/JgLWQeH7UN
— United Farm Workers (@UFWupdates) July 2, 2024
Full statement @ https://t.co/b1wmKQgkoa 3/
— United Farm Workers (@UFWupdates) July 2, 2024
Heat is insidious, it kills quietly and discreetly. But it kills more people than any other weather event—more than hurricanes, blizzards, tornados combined. We make workers toil in heat bc we can ignore it's killing them. Imagine if we expected someone to work in a hurricane https://t.co/6o5Rht6PBy
— Jack Herrera (@jherrerx) July 5, 2024
I texted this news to my partner, who is a tree worker & spends 9+ hrs a day in extreme heat. I cannot tell you how much these longer, hotter summers can break a person's body. My partner texted me back: "Joe Biden has been a good president. You can tell everyone I said that." https://t.co/aCVAzTPyZ2
— Magdi Jacobs (@magi_jay) July 3, 2024
I haven’t looked at it yet, but i saw that @potus announced a new website for this effort: https://t.co/iknqW31KER. 💚
— Karen Lynch 💙 (@karenlynchkaren) July 2, 2024
But of course…
This hit—in the midst of a heatwave—as soon as activists got Biden to back new federal law protecting workers from extreme heat, developed by the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), which aims to trigger protections when the heat index reaches 80° F. https://t.co/BYXJWCg70i pic.twitter.com/5N4o3sa0kV
— Pantéa Javidan, JD, PhD (@pjavidan) July 3, 2024
TBone
We’ll continue to make it really hot for Uncle Clarence. He’s in the hot seat already.
Another Scott
(repost from downstairs)
+1
(via Fritschner)
Thanks AL, and everyone working to make things better.
Cheers,
Scott.
sab
So will they have to get this through Congress now that Chevron is gone?
sab
@Another Scott: OMG she used the f word!!!
eclare
I stand with Joe.
MagdaInBlack
@sab: Let me roll out the fainting couches for the press.
I said down stairs I suddenly love her even more for it ❤️
OzarkHillbilly
I keep hoping god will eliminate thomas, but he has disappointed me for over 30 years now.
OzarkHillbilly
@sab: My pearls, my pearls! Where are my pearls????
Chris Johnson
@sab: Now that Chevron is gone, there’s no ability to interpret the language of things. It means everything has to be spelled out in detail, which can cut both ways. In this case, my guess is that it can be spelled out in an uncompromising way.
Beau of the Fifth Column has been totally solid through all this and I’m reminded of his take on Chevron. He thinks this can easily backfire on Republicans, because in their own legislation they now have to spell everything out, and their positions are unpopular and would struggle to find electoral approval when worded too bluntly.
I don’t think we have that problem, our problem would be more ‘passing stuff that legit hurt businesses economically because it was too strict’. On the other hand some of the stuff we need to do needs to be strict.
Eyeroller
Yeah but apparently being kind and decent means you’re just feeble old grandpa and not tuff enuf to lead the country. Also Kamala cackles and is unladylike.
Chris Johnson
@sab: Fuck yes she did :)
I, too, like her better for it. Way to show she’s up to speed with what’s really going on.
This all is absolutely not insurmountable. I just like that they’re correctly reading the situation. It sure is about saving our fucking democracy.
TBone
H.E.Wolf
Biden has my support: both my opinion, and my activities.
Writing GOTV postcards is very compatible with July weather. I’ve figured out the right setting for the electric fan, so that my postcards don’t blow across the room.
If I’m in the comments a bit less often, that’s one reason why. I’ve got my eye on the prize, and that means I have work to do.
Stay cool and do one small, concrete thing every day towards the goal – that’s my m.o. for the summer!
sab
@Eyeroller: Yep. She is supposed to giggle or titter. Only men are allowed to outright laugh.
WereBear
On the other hand, it seems it has to be this obvious for some to grasp, because it happens slowly, and they aren’t paying attention.
Also, the news hides the context until the end, when one has hapefully given up wrestling with this slimy python of nothingness and form a bitter attitude instead of being informed.
Mousebumples
I’ll be mostly out today for a family thing. However…
Thread reskeeted –
I’m looking forward to getting home to my postcarding supplies later tonight…
Raven
I’m thankful for this wall-to-wall futbol to be followed by wall-to-wall Olympics!
WereBear
This is so reminiscent of the pre-Civil War period, where the Confederate versions of wingnuts worked themselves into firing on Fort Sumter.
When they were winning, legislatively, until they did something blatantly insurrectionist. That’s why we have to get all these Confederate “traditions” out of the entire process.
zhena gogolia
Who in the world is exactly the same as they were 3.5 years ago, George? What BS.
Mousebumples
Also, pie for the trolls!
Another Scott
WhiteHouse.gov backgrounder on 75th Anniversary NATO summit next week. Should be a big deal. We’ll see if the press covers it with seriousness.
Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
Denali5
I stand with Joe.
We can’t lose sight of the impact of the terrible immunity decision of the Supreme Court. If the convicted felon gets in by way of the inflated non-isssue of President Biden’s age, all bets are off. We must get the message out of the frightening consequences of Project 2025.
Tony Jay
Tony Jay
@Raven:
It’s a proper season of sport.
Fortunately, Britain’s athletes are a whole different level of entertaining than the dross we’re serving up on the pitch.
Elizabelle
I do not want NY Times publisher AG Sulzberger, who gives every indication of being a fascist, picking our Democratic nominee. After shivving the incumbent, who has been an excellent president.
And sees right through AG Sulzberger, and the other 21st century malefactors.
Nukular Biskits
Good mornin’, y’all!
Rusty
The NY Times will probably generate another 192 articles (do they realize how completely insane that is?) off the ABC interview, but I hope this gets the Democrats in the conress and senate to shut up and get behind Biden. Nothing good has come from this, but it did reveal on my Facebook group of college acquaintances who are the assholes who claim to be liberal but “couldn’t vote for Kamala.”
SiubhanDuinne
@sab:
She sure as fuck did, and that makes me So.Fucking.Happy!
Chris Johnson
@Tony Jay: Jesus Christ, don’t tempt them. O_O
NotMax
Break out the party hats and balloons!
Early July means it’s Zubeneschamali and Zubenelgenubi time.
(All dates in the report are from 2015.)
delphinium
@zhena gogolia: The reason the media has been so hysterical isn’t because they think Biden is incompetent, it’s because they know Trump is.
And the more they continue on with this nonsense, the stupider they look.
Edited for typo
Geminid
@Raven: Be sure to catch Turkiye’s woman’s Olympic volleyball team. They are really something, and if they make to the finals most of Turkiye will shut down to watch.
eclare
@Tony Jay:
This is fucking ridiculous. No more. No more interviews, whatever. Last night was too much. No more. Let that be a mantra.
Who the fuck is advising him?
MagdaInBlack
@Tony Jay: I’ve seen so much insanity this week I honestly do not know if your messin’ with me or not. That’s kinda sad of me.
I’ll just have some more coffee here, while you reassure me.
sab
@Denali5: They did quite a job with the three buckets: complete immunity, presumed immunity, no immunity. Pretty much everything will land in the middle bucket. So they can develop moving goal posts depending on the president’s party affiliation.
WereBear
Also, Joe Biden didn’t take the bait. He declared he wasn’t going to do anything illegally.
Let’s hear that from his opponent.
sab
@zhena gogolia: George is still angry that a Democrat fired him 30+ years ago.
Eyeroller
@eclare: That’s one of Tony Jay’s parodies. Hint: “fuelling.”
TBone
@Tony Jay: 😆🎯
Elizabelle
@Another Scott: The NATO summit. That could be helpful. Maybe the malefactors went all in this week, before Biden could have another good week, as with his 80th anniversary of DDay speech.
I despise the malefactors. They were out in force for FDR, and for Biden. We may not welcome them, but they are identifying themselves daily.
MagdaInBlack
@eclare: See. Like me, so much insanity the last week you didn’t know for sure. My first reaction was WTF., then I saw it was our Tony Jay and sought reassurance 😊
wil
“I see a kind decent and extremely successful president. And anyone who wants to throw that success away is a goddamn fool.”
Of course, if Biden LOSES to Trump, that would be throwing that success away, and that is what those who think Biden should step aside are worried about.
Replacing Biden with a Democrat who has a better chance of beating Trump would not be throwing that success away. It’s not like another Democrat in the White House would be ‘throwing that success away’
Nukular Biskits
@Chris Johnson:
That’s my take as well.
Having said that, however, given the number of Federalist judges in the fed judiciary, I fully expect to see them make decisions favoring ambiguous “conservative” legislation (i.e., regulatory rulemaking based on vague Republican-pass laws) and decide for plaintiffs (primarily business-interests) for Democrat-pass laws.
Tony Jay
@eclare:
From now on all interviews with the corporate media should take advantage of Biden’s huge support in the entertainment industry.
I think Fozie Bear fronting a few White House Press Corpse sessions would let them know good and hard how much contempt they’re held in.
Retro-cool is still cool, right?
Layer8Problem
The helpful thoughtful new guy’s here. Pie or engage, folks? Choose wisely.
Princess
I’m speaking not in general but only about people I know, at least in the FB sense (and not about anyone in here at all, apart from the trolls) but I can’t help but notice that all the people still freaking out about Biden are white men who are not old or elderly but older than me. I can’t help but feel some of this is a proxy for their own diminishing powers.
Tony Jay
@MagdaInBlack:
“Long-form blood test”
I know, I know. They really are that petty. 🫠
TBone
Except from Rob Brezny’s Beauty and Truth Lab section at the very entertaining freewillastrology:
Layer8Problem
@TBone: And as The Master told Buffy, “A dream is a wish your heart makes.” 😁
EarthWindFire
@wil: And who is this Democrat who can beat Trump and how does this person become the next president? Give us some idea of what happens after you get your way. You can’t? Then you’re trolling, no matter sincere you are in your beliefs. Sorry not sorry.
wil
@EarthWindFire: This is the reply to your post in the other thread:
The reality is that sometimes the future is unclear and not a straight line.
Obviously the only possible choice for campaign funding reasons (and other reasons) is Kamala Harris.
So the question becomes, does Kamala stand a better chance of beating Trump than an increasingly feeble and dug-in Biden?
A lot of people who are loyal Democrats same as you honestly think so.
Whether you “listen” or not just because you don’t see a clear plan is irrelevant.
Sometimes there is no clear plan, but you still have to jump off the sinking ship and hope for the best.
In this case, though, the plan would have to be Kamala as the candidate. Beyond that, I can’t say.
delphinium
@Tony Jay: I’d go with either Animal or Oscar the Grouch myself : ).
Geminid
@Layer8Problem: I don’t pie people, but I like the concept. My understanding is there are choices of different pie images. I would like to see an Apple of Discord Pie, with a scoop of ice cream in Joe Biden’s honor.
Shalimar
@Elizabelle: I have been informed by the media and the internets that Biden is becoming feeble and infirm at such a rapid rate that he could be a mummy by next week. Of course, a mummy representing us at the NATO summit would still be a few steps up from Trump.
lowtechcyclist
Let’s see:
– Biden wants to protect workers from having to work in extreme heat conditions
– Clarence Thomas wants to do away with OSHA so that no workers have to be protected from anything anymore, like working around/with hazardous chemicals and shit like that
– If it’s not already part of Project 2025, Trump’s minions would undoubtedly love to shut down OSHA even without a helping hand from SCOTUS
There have been elections before that were clearly Good Guys v. Bad Guys. (1860, 1932 come to mind.) This is clearly one of them.
Re-elect Biden and Harris, hold the Senate, win the House. Then fight for 15.
TBone
@Layer8Problem: you are the 🦗in my cage. We can learn something from the Okinawans who have been constantly invaded but never conquered.
I build my teahouse under the August moon.
Shalimar
@Geminid: I would like to see an image of a troll under a bridge surrounded by pies. Alas, I don’t pie people either.
Leto
@Tony Jay: the Muppets are timeless.
TBone
For the troll who will not understand it anyway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
Nukular Biskits
@wil:
And this is supported by what evidence/polling?
When people make claims like this, I call bullshit.
The burden of proof is upon the claimant, not the skeptic. Support your claim, please.
RaflW
@Mousebumples: Yup. If Biden had stumbled or lost his train of thought at the Madison rally, it would have been ‘news’. But he did well, so there’s ‘nothing new’ to report.
It’s a fucking game to these assholes, and they do not care if millions of people are the losers.
My BF is a former journalist, and while he very much understands the stakes in this election, he was defending the poor coverage of our VP when she goes out to do Infrastructure ribbon cuttings. “It’s not really news, except maybe locally.”
It’s reporter brain, and it’s taught from the very beginning of J school and reenforced at every career level. Life getting better is boring, so let’s have more life getting worse stories. If that leads to life getting worse for everyone, well, that’s just what ‘happened’, the news is just observing.
The refusal to see that they are agents in that change is a problem.
Nukular Biskits
@Leto:
THIS is timeless squared:
Bohemian Rhapsody | Muppet Music Video | The Muppets
cmorenc
@wil:
Here @BJ, you might as well be trying to persuade a church full of evangelicals that Jesus should be replaced by the Guru Mara-Ji as to try to explain why Biden should step down in favor of another candidate. Not exactly a receptive audience, no matter the quality of your arguments.
Layer8Problem
@Geminid: I’m sure it can be done. You haven’t seen the Purina Sea Lion Chow image, have you?
And I still demand a blueberry pie! In a nice way, of course.
Shalimar
@Nukular Biskits: Troll-feeding is in the last thread. Don’t let him take over the whole day.
Eyeroller
@cmorenc: Then why do either of you waste your time here? I understand that LGM would be much more accepting of your viewpoint, and probably has a wider audience.
wil
@Nukular Biskits: Just go read the news. It doesn’t all have to be a conspiracy, you know.
So clearly, it’s more than just a few people here and there.
Layer8Problem
@Shalimar: A mummy would be more mobile than TFG was in his golf cart on his trip to Europe. At least the mummies I’ve seen in the movies.
wil
@cmorenc:
I hear ya.
I’m not trying to convince anyone…I am amusing myself while I work.
But it’s still sad to see fellow Democrats so dug in they won’t even consider the possibility that Biden can no longer beat Trump. But whatever…it’s just a blog.
EarthWindFire
@wil: And if that’s the best plan, I’m sticking with Biden. Because I think Kamala Harris has a less of a chance of winning than him. But I’m glad to see you thought about it. Too many of your fellow travelers haven’t.
RaflW
@lowtechcyclist: The Center for Public Integrity crunched numbers and Trump’s OSHA conducted fewer safety inspections during his first three years than during a comparable period in President Obama’s second term. But the labor force had grown by 16 percent.
So even without these Heritage demons, worker safety suffered.
Eyeroller
As somebody on Twitter said, from now on every single Democratic meeting is going to be about Biden. Maybe Jeffries is going to tell everybody to sack up and shut up? But oh no, that’s not a possibility. Dave Robert’s thread really captured things perfectly.
I’ve never pied anybody but I guess I’m going to have to start, since every single thread is going to be derailed.
Chief Oshkosh
I didn’t expect much from Li’l Georgie Snufflepuss, and boy did he deliver the mediocrity. Such a disappointment to his mother, though.
Starfish
@Princess: I don’t know. A lot of the tech folks that I know are younger than that. They are freaking out too.
If Congress was a real branch of government that did its job, it should step up and say they are going to make an amendment after this election that no one over 75 can run.
There has been too much speculation on the mental fitness of the candidates and an insufficient focus on their policy positions.
prostratedragon
Some plain speaking on solidarity and the election.
Nukular Biskits
@wil:
What part of this is not clear?
The burden of proof is upon the claimant, not the skeptic.
You provide a single quote out of the FTFNYT about a meeting. I clearly asked you to provide survey/poll results to support your claim “A lot of people who are loyal Democrats same as you honestly think so.”
Try harder.
Chief Oshkosh
@wil: But there is a clear plan to victory for Biden. It’s worked for every incumbent who won a second term. It’s very rare that an incumbent nominee loses. To pretend that seeing that plan is somehow murky future banana oil is just weird.
ETA: Ah, I see from your other writings that you’re just amusing yourself. Glad to write you off as unserious then.
Scout211
@Layer8Problem: Thanks for the reminder.
I rarely pie anyone. But after catching up on the overnight threads, I added another pie.
We don’t choose, but we do get an array of rotating images. It’s kind of fun to see which one comes up each time.
I get that some commenters feel the need to engage, but I “wil” not. 😉
RaflW
@wil: Failing to accept Biden stepping down is by no means evidence that we “won’t even consider the possibility”.
Sorry, bub. Many of us here have considered the ramifications, and understand that paths other than Biden Stays In have multiple risks that nearly everyone invested in Biden stepping down just hand waives away.
Maybe it seems like a clever rhetorical construction to say “You won’t consider it!” but what you’re actually saying is “You didn’t agree with me.”
wil
@Nukular Biskits: complaining about the source doesn’t help you. I canceled my NYT subscription after they called for Biden to drop out but not Trump.
However, the meeting among top Congressional Democrats on the path forward is happening whether you like the source or not.
delphinium
@Layer8Problem: Yeah, Mousebumples’ comment at #20 lays out a good criteria for whether responding may be worth your while.
I would also add that anyone memory-holing: the primary where 90%+ of the voters backed Biden (Trump never got close to that % of voters), Trump had a worse debate (couldn’t even answer a question!), or both candidates actual performance as president can be ignored.
The media being a bad-faith actor and using the same dem-bashing playbook they’ve used previously in elections has been well established.
wil
@RaflW: Every path has risks.
Tell me something I don’t know.
wil
@Chief Oshkosh:
Yeah, but it happens…in fact it just happened four years ago. That’s not a plan. That’s a hope.
ETA: And you are doing the same.
Nukular Biskits
@wil:
While I did complain about the source, I also clearly noted that your citation failed to support your claim, something you completely skipped over addressing.
As others have already pointed out, your admission that you’re “amusing yourself at work” shows that you’re truly not serious about this at all and are here solely to troll.
Noted.
Papa Boyle
Hold fast
oldgold
@cmorenc: Amen!
Tony Jay
@delphinium:
@Leto:
The bench is deep and of outstanding quality in every position.
I say go with it. 192 articles parsing whether or not Kermit’s arm gestures are proof of an MS diagnosis should keep the Infotainers busy and are just the right level of pointless faff for today’s tranche of bridge-dwellers to empty their concern-vats into.
wil
@Nukular Biskits: You’re not doing anything other than amusing yourself commenting on a blog here.
Don’t pretend you are doing some kind of serious work passing the snark around with your fellow BJers in your hive mind here.
However, the meeting among House Democrats is happening, so clearly the worry and concern about Biden is FAR from just a few people like me commenting in places like this.
Shouldn’t be hard for you to see that, though maybe it is just hard to admit.
E.
I resisted pie for many years but tried some for the first time about a week ago and I have to say it was the right decision. Some people just don’t add value to a discussion. And it isn’t because they disagree. It’s when something else is going on.
lowtechcyclist
@cmorenc:
Also, we’ve already had this discussion about 55 times in the past eight and a half days. We’ve done this one to death, and there aren’t any new arguments. It’s well past time to move on.
ETA: Just pied this wil person. The thread looks much tastier now.
Leto
OT (but not really considering this deals with potential regulations):
UC Berkeley Public Health First study to measure toxic metals in tampons shows arsenic and lead, among other contaminants
So when Health and Human Services goes to issue rules limiting/elimination toxic metals from women’s tampons, Thomas, Alito and the rest of the dudes on the court will cite that the federal agency lacks authority to do that, and that women have to have lead, and toxic shock syndrome, in their who-ha because Constitutional Jesus demands it.
Chris Johnson
@Nukular Biskits: On the contrary, I think we’re being polled. It’s actually kind of interesting. Go downthread and check out the state of ‘Never Trust A Centrist’.
We have parallel trollages, but this one’s on the ‘get rid of Biden and run Kamala because Trump is unbeatable’ narrative.
The other one is on a ‘get rid of Biden AND Kamala, because Trump is so weak that any Dem could beat him’ narrative.
They aren’t fighting, at all. One would think they might have words, but no: they want to have words with US, not step on each others’ toes.
Between the two of them, they’re sounding out the blog for what we think of Kamala, and whether we think Trump is going to burn up all his voting base being Trump. (He’s dangerous as a criminal and fuckhead, but that doesn’t automatically make him dangerous as a general election candidate: a blowout against him, post-Dobbs, IS possible).
This is a research trolling. I think it’s super interesting. I feel like I’ve seen it done before, but not often.
wil
@EarthWindFire:
No need for the insult. I could as easily say that “I’m glad you’ve thought about sticking with Biden. Too many of your fellow travelers haven’t.”
We will see how it all plays out.
Starfish
@wil: Please be kind.
Nukular Biskits lives in an area with so many Republicans. It is so captured that sometimes when you hear the lefties there speak, they sound just like the rightwingers because they have bought into rightwing talking points without even realizing it.
In a place like that, there is a chance that if the Democrats switch candidates, the support will fall along racial divides, with black Democrats being extremely excited and white Democrats being laughed at by their racist friends for the party not sticking to their candidate.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … Phys.org:
(Emphasis added.)
Neato.
Worth a click.
And a reminder that whether we acknowledge or not, whether the FTFNYT wants to erase it or not, history is everywhere and people remember.
Cheers,
Scott.
Nukular Biskits
@wil:
This will be my last word on this subject in response to you.
You made a claim. You have repeatedly refused to support that claim with anything approaching publicly-verifiable evidence. Instead, you reference a NYT article quoting the Speaker holding a meeting. Sorry, but that doesn’t meet the definition of what you clearly asserted in this sentence:
The fact that you are unwilling to support your claim in the manner requested shows you are not putting your “concerns” out there in good faith.
Cue the “GOOD DAY, SIR!” Willy Wonka meme.
wil
@Starfish: Thanks for that.
There are risks no matter what the Democrats do.
I was for sticking with Biden until I saw the interview last night.
I did not watch the debate.
sixthdoctor
Did Biden shit in the Huffington Post’s Cheerios one morning? Their headlines have been uniformly negative in 24-point font for a week.
Nukular Biskits
@Chris Johnson:
Interesting point.
I had always considered such trolling as being executed by “lone wolf” asshats. I had never considered the likelihood what “wil” is doing here is part of a concerted/coordinated effort to gauge opinion.
delphinium
@Leto: Shit. This reminded me of the talc baby powder-ovarian cancer lawsuit.
wil
@Nukular Biskits: Whatever, man. Keep your head in the sand for all I care.
Eyeroller
@sixthdoctor: The media is deep into a circle jerk and are paying attention to nothing but each other right now. Edit: the “We better think” thread reposts a Twitter thread from Dave Roberts that explains this perfectly.
zhena gogolia
@sab: Just what my husband said!
Dorothy A. Winsor
As soon as a poster decides another poster is the topic, it’s time to scroll by. Repeated offenses merit the pie filter.
Geminid
@Layer8Problem: Ideally, the blog would have a pi filter that could screen out circular arguments.
Nukular Biskits
@Starfish:
Not spoiling for a fight here but I take great exception to that.
prostratedragon
@Eyeroller: It’s a wonderful time-saver.
CaseyL
Even if Joe Biden were the doddering old wreck the MSM and some commenters here say he is, I would and will still vote for him.
Because, one, the alternative is horrifying.
Because, two, Biden has a whipsmart and capable team around him. His Cabinet is outstanding, his aides know how to get stuff done, and his advisors know their shit.
Because, three, the MSM is. absolutely is, doing its best to sabotage the Democratic ticket. The GOP already has a series of attacks on Kamala Harris lined up and ready to go. The MSM will carry their anti-Harris water as eagerly as it’s carrying out their anti-Biden agenda.
NO FANTASY PERFECT CANDIDATE IS COMING TO SAVE YOU. That is a thing that does not exist.
Your choices are these: 1) Get behind Biden/Harris with all your might, or 2) Get ready for Trump II.
I hope that’s clear enough.
TBone
Troll:
1. Find a personal space. (Not here.)
2. Find a dildo-shaped object.
3. Go fuck yourself with it.
More succinctly, do the work you’re getting paid for 🤡
E.
@Chris Johnson: They don’t even have to be people. You can train AI to do this. Train it to concern troll in various registers. I’m getting a little deeper in campaign strategy and the shit they can do, and brag about doing, is unsettling. That said, polling a blog in that manner would reveal what exactly?
Chris
@cmorenc:
Do let us know when an argument of quality walks in, would you? We’ve spent the last week and change watching Biden answer every concern only to be met by goalpost-moving, denial, and more frenetic screaming. A change of pace from that would be nice.
Layer8Problem
@Geminid: “Ideally, the blog would have a pi filter that could screen out circular arguments.”
We’ll never be able to square that with our blog ethos! If we toss out circular arguments pretty soon all the logical fallacies will be stamped out as well and then where will we be?
wil
Except Biden hasn’t answered every concern. In fact the concerns are getting worse.
Starfish
@Nukular Biskits: Clarification. I was not saying that you behave this way, but I am saying that when I was still on Facebook, a lot of my own peers who live in your state (and are Democrats) had bought into certain things that someone who does not live in that area does not believe.
I also don’t believe that they were wrong for believing some of it.
For example, there seemed to be a belief that the ACA was the cause of rising drug prices. A lot of rural hospitals are closing, and a bunch of us who have left are concerned about our elderly parents who still live there.
The increase in food costs is definitely felt more in areas where unemployment is higher and jobs pay less.
Sandia Blanca
@Layer8Problem: Thank you for explaining what that bag of chow is! I could never figure out what it means. Now it has showed up for me at comment #83, and I was able to expand it to see the sea lion. Brilliant!
UncleEbeneezer
Husband: Honey, I think we should open up our marriage…
Wife: Fuck no.
Husband: Can’t we just have a conversation, you know hypothetical?
Wife: (gives him look of death that definitively ends his dream)
Right now, all you fuckers (and the media) who keep want to insist on “having the discussion/debate/conversation etc.” are being the pushy dude who won’t take “No” for an answer. Your little fantasy has gotten an emphatic NO from Biden, Harris, countless Dem leaders, five FP posters and numerous long-term commenters.
Your coalition has answered. The answer is NO.
Your JAQing off trolling routine is hurting our unity and it’s time for you to fucking stop, grow up and get over it. We’ve said NO. We’ve spelled out why, umpteen times. Now you’re just being pushy assholes trying to force a conversation that we’ve told you we aren’t having. Read the fucking room.
#BIDEN/Harris2024
artem1s
interesting how quickly the troll pivot shifted once they realized no one was buying the ‘Joe must step aside for a more electable candidate’. anyone who lived thru
2000 2016 2020 2022any election since Carter recognizes that goal post shift. but the real tell is they now seem to think Black Twitter and KHives will fall into line if they concede the replacement will obviously be Harris (mky :-( we’ll let you keep her as long as we get a chance to put a White guy in the second chair) As if Harris is going to stick the shiv in her boss’ back for them.EarthWindFire
@wil: If you think that’s an insult, you really need to find another blog to comment on. If you’ve been around as much as you say you have, you’d know that. Time for pie.
Geminid
@Nukular Biskits: I dunno. That analysis sounds very consistent with what I’ve learned about Mississippi from reading William Faulkner and Eudora Welty novels.
Chris Johnson
@Nukular Biskits: I do think it’s interesting. It even means you can counter-study them: this kind of stuff also reveals what narratives the pollsters might try if they get traction. It’s incredibly important to find out what’s got traction and what doesn’t.
As far as coordinated, it hardly requires Boris Badenov: you only have to have a couple legit nyms, or to be sitting on a bunch of nyms set up earlier. Not that much work, nothing that nefarious about just banking a few nyms for use in such experiments. You don’t have to be the Internet Research Agency, or to pwn people’s servers, to do this. It’s very easy.
You MIGHT be either the Internet Research Agency or helpful Republican/MAGA assistants, to put it into action. Because the thing is, most of the second-order trolling is about just putting out the narratives, but somebody has to also be there to pay attention to what’s working. That was the power of Cambridge Analytica, but it can also be done like this, more informally, tactically.
When it’s multiple narratives being run as trolls in parallel, and they’re mutually contradictory but don’t fight each other at all, it seems very simple to me: instead of being about swaying people, it’s so brazen and annoying because it’s no longer about swaying people. It’s about feeding information back to whoever’s trying to run narratives.
And one conclusion is that the first narrative is faltering, so other narratives must be studied.
In this case, wil’s narrative was the first one tried, and the ‘wounded bird’ narrative is competing with it. Trump cannot be both unbeatable, and so fucked that literally any Dem even without money can beat him. But the point is in seeing how people react to the question.
Leto
@delphinium: one of the upcoming SI swimsuit models is a double leg amputee, below the knee for both, who had to have her legs amputated due to toxic shock syndrome, related to her use of tampons. OSHA regulations are written in blood and lives, a lot of other regulations are written in blood and lives, and conservatives just want to make it absolutely worse. Strike that. Not just “want to”, they’re already doing it.
Another Scott
@E.:
It’s already being done, of course.
NewsGuardTech.com (from June 18):
Not everything is a VVP disinformation campaign. But such campaigns do exist.
Caveat lector!
Eyes on the prizes.
Cheers,
Scott.
Chris
@wil:
And as if on cue, there’s the denial.
Nukular Biskits
@Starfish:
Thanks for the clarification.
All of us, myself included, are influenced by our respective environments to some extent so I got what you’re putting down there.
wil
@EarthWindFire: Very well.
I’m glad you’ve thought about sticking with Biden. Too many of your fellow travelers haven’t.
Layer8Problem
@Sandia Blanca: Isn’t it? Our front-pagers love us and want us to be happy.
ETA: I think the Sea Lion Chow was WaterGirl. Credit where credit is due.
Starfish
@Geminid: I grew up there, as did many people who I know. Most of our parents still live there, as do a lot of our friends.
EarthWindFire
@wil: Thank you. I’m glad you find me thoughtful. See how easy that was?
wil
@Chris: You can claim Biden has answered every concern, but that’s not the reality.
The reality is that Democrats are more concerned than before.
Nukular Biskits
@Geminid: As a native Mississippian who has lived here for damn near 60 years, there is a reason I have this on my Twitter bio:
BR
For those who couldn’t open the important Dave Roberts thread, here it is:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1809311013839466846.html?utm_campaign=topunroll
Share it with anyone who is buying into an iota of the current media narrative.
BR
@wil:
I am so concerned. Concerned I am. Am concerned am I. Concerned concerned concerned.
TBone
@Chris Johnson: analysis level:
Expert
wil
@BR: Complaining that Democrats are concerned and worried and terrified that Biden can not beat Trump in November is just the truth.
You folks here trying to deny that and blame the media and anyone else you can think of to blame are the laughable ones.
TBone
@BR: 😆
Chris Johnson
@E.: In deference to Dorothy’s sensibilities I’m gonna leave it alone: my autism does let me dig into this stuff and make connections, but then I’m in danger of not shutting the hell up about it :) so I gotta trust that other people are smart. Some of ’em ;)
This particular combination of very prolific, narrative-welded trolls (usually if the point is to sway anybody, being stuck so hard to the narrative is bad, but if it’s about seeing reactions TO the narrative, that’s good) looks to be about gauging perceptions of whether Trump is perceived as unbeatably tough or extremely weak, and about whether Kamala Harris could step into the Presidency without a hiccup, or whether Kamala Harris could be bullied into stepping aside too. It’s sort of two tracks there, opposite takes. We’ll probably see which narrative polls best in a week or so as this would be happening all over: whatever works best against Dems is what will suddenly be all the NYT talks about.
I’m not sure if they poll against mistrust of their own selves. Maybe they have no choice at this stage.
TBone
@wil: 🎶🤡
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs
Leto
@Nukular Biskits: got a local question for you: over in Biloxi, on the beach side of 90, have they built anything? I was stationed there from 2003-2008 and after Katrina they said there weren’t going to build anything beach side. I was back two times since, for training classes, and there was discussion of maybe apartments going up on the beach? Just wondering if they’ve kept to the “nothing is being built on the beach”? I know I could Google Maps it, but rather ask you.
Eyeroller
@BR: I wish this would be a front-page post. It is very important.
And I am now seeing all sorts of pies and cakes and candies!
Layer8Problem
@Another Scott:
Well blow me down. It’s like these AI chatbots don’t even think!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@CaseyL:
My mantra:
Remember that this election is all about Trump’s massive threat to US democracy. And Dobbs.
To paraphrase Odie Hugh Manatee:
Ask anyone why the want the 34 Felonies Child Molester to be President.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Layer8Problem:
I believe that’s how black holes are formed.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
and Trump managed that.
Leto
@E.: you know, I was pretty restrained in my use of the filter to what I thought was the most trollish of people. But since the debate I’ve just liberally applied it. Agree with: “some people just don’t add value to a discussion.” Most people of good faith have calmed down, and are moving forward. They’re channeling their fear/trepidation into action via multiple means. The rest? They can eat shit and live in the filter.
MisterForkbeard
@wil: The problem is that Biden HAS addressed the concerns, but people haven’t been willing to listen. Some of that is that people like you and the media keep insisting that he hasn’t, but he’s done the interviews, speeches, discussions and meetings that were demanded and the same demanders just decided to ignore them.
That doesn’t mean you’re wrong about replacing Biden. But it means that the pressure is coming from the same sort of media ‘get-the-democrat’ horseshit that got Hillary in 2016, and not from genuine concern that the guy has dementia or whatever. Because he pretty clearly doesn’t.
artem1s
@Chris Johnson:
any change in subject from 34 indictments and more to come accomplishes their goal. the sentencing has been delayed until September and hardly anyone is talking about that or the other SCOTUS ratfucking.
Princess
@Chris Johnson: Yes, it’s fascinating to watch them in action. And it feels like 2016 deja vu too. There was a tag team pair on Dahlia Lithwick’s fb page. No one responded.
Chris Johnson
See? You can’t go by them not being able to speak English, or pleb-tier stuff like that. There are plenty of Americans, even relatively smart ones, who are just nuts and have toxic loyalties.
I figure this has been the real WWIII, and it’s very much underway but it’s not nearly as mysterious as it was in 2016. All of this absolutely was happening, just as much, in 2016.
If anything, we’ve learned and they’ve not upped their game. It’s the same thing as before. It sucks, but this is not insurmountable digital warfare.
Just like learning what a ‘Nigerian Scammer’ is, you can learn about Russian trolling. Probably in the future that’ll be the word for this, even after they stop being the primary force in it (like they cease to be the primary force militarily in their region). The phrases Nigerian Scamming and Russian Trolling will come to specify things like ‘use bad unconvincing grammar to preselect for gullible people’, and ‘flood the zone with conflicting narratives that have a common theme but don’t have to be consistent in other fundamental ways’.
Chris Johnson
@Princess: Oh, neat! Was it the same two narratives set against each other here? Trump stronk/weak and Harris Prez/dropped?
jimmiraybob
Meanwhile……….. Trump initiated Schedule F using an Executive Order. Biden stopped Schedule F.
Schedule F “would have stripped protections from civil servants perceived as disloyal to the president and encouraged expressions of allegiance to the president when hiring. This effort is referred to as ‘Schedule F’ because that was the name of the new employment category that the executive order created.”
Sure sounds like Trump has already started implementing Project 2025. Maybe someone could research and comment on that. Oh, wait.
“To assist him, the Heritage Foundation, a prominent conservative policy organization, has organized a coalition of over 100 conservative organizations under the banner of ‘Project 2025,’ an effort to prepare policy and personnel for ‘the next conservative president.’ The organization’s policy agenda advocates for a revival of Schedule F as part of a larger crackdown on the civil service, and the architects of Project 2025 have plainly said that their aim is ‘to bend or break the bureaucracy to the presidential will.’”
The link to “Protect Democracy” website:
https://protectdemocracy.org/work/trumps-schedule-f-plan-explained/
Chris
@Eyeroller:
Who is David Roberts? Didn’t know him before this thread, but he’s one of the few people making sense.
lowtechcyclist
@CaseyL:
This. No point in changing, they’ll take that as success, and will jump on Harris twice as hard. “Never give a inch,” as one fictional character put it.
wil
@MisterForkbeard: Simply saying “I’m fine, I was exhausted, I went overseas (12 days earlier) and was tired” isn’t addressing the concerns, though.
My concerns aren’t about Biden’s excuses, but rather his feeble demeanor and inability to forcefully counter Trump.
There is no real answer for that but performance and I’m not seeing it. He looks like an old man out of his depth.
We all know the media isn’t fair. That’s no excuse. We have to live with that in every election. That doesn’t change anything.
MinuteMan
In 2020, right after the post New Hampshire reorganization of the nomination race, there were memes floating around that Biden was a senile old fool who was being propped up by good staff work. They got some slight purchase since some folks were miffed about how the men in the shadows had fixed the race. For whatever reason the memes died out quickly and never took root in the media; possibly the various opposition groups figured that there were plenty of riper avenues of attack.
In 2024 they’re having trouble finding an chink in Joe’s armor. The best one has been his overly pro-Israel handling of Gaza but that attack would draw fierce counterattack from AIPAC, et al. (much scarier for a politician than getting into the NRA’s sights back in their heyday); plus Felonius Gunk couldn’t use it himself. Thus they’ve dusted of the too-old meme and are wielding it despite Felonius Gunk’s comparable age and clear signs of cognitive decline if not full-on dementia. I suppose that’s not surprising since the media has been giving FG at most a finger wag for statements and behavior that would have ended most politician’s careers and likely landed them in jail: they’re all the National Enquirer now.
SoupCatcher
@Geminid:
I just wanted to see that again.
Eyeroller
@Chris Johnson: I really avoid conspiratorial thinking and I wonder why they’d bother with a blog like this, but we know for certain that this is going on in the wider campaign. It’s documented; I recently saw an article about it in Wired. The NYT doesn’t need any encouragement from Russian trolls but they may well be providing some of the “engagement” there and especially at “lesser” media outlets. And it had not occurred to me but yes, using an AI optimized for English (which the big ones currently are) would smooth over some of the characteristic grammatical tics that native speakers of Slavic languages usually have in English.
Shalimar
Ignore him. Nothing can answer his concerns, thus why he is a concern troll. And he responds to anyone who pays attention to him, thus attention whore.
Starfish
@Chris: He discusses climate change policy. He used to write at Vox a lot, but then he moved to his own newsletter.
Eyeroller
@Chris: He was/is “Dr. Volts” at Vox. (I was calling him Dr. Vox, that’s wrong.). He is a journalist who specializes in energy, environment, and related topics.
And the thread was front-paged so I apologize to the front-pagers, but I think it should be made very prominent.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Let’s see, works on a Saturday and by his own admission, has nothing better to do but fuck around on some obscure blog, goal post mover, delusions of grandeur, thinks life is massive job review, smartest man in the room, just asks him.
Yes, the signs are here, we have a middle manager!
wil
@MinuteMan: In 2020 none of the Democrats running before Biden got in seemed like they could beat Trump. They all had problems in one way or another.
Biden, whatever his faults, was the candidate who could bridge those gaps in 2020.
topclimber
I just know I want Biden to be my President just as long as he can be, and Trump not one damn second.
ETA cognitive decline
Chris Johnson
Absolutely. We’re morally obligated to deliver a curb-stomping to fascism, as a message sent electorally.
This is why it actually makes little difference whether Trump is ‘unbeatably strong’ (citation needed) or ‘impossibly weak’ (if only it were that extreme, but this is closer to the truth)
It literally doesn’t matter. It’s the same criminal fuckhead running for office. He personifies a lot of toxic bullshit we don’t stand for, but it’s also about the principles of the thing, and for whatever reason the Republicans have either doubled down or been bullied/blackmailed into full fascism and the end of democracy. A mere 20 years ago, the talk coming out of the Heritage Foundation would’ve been unthinkable. It’s an election to stop THAT noise, above all else. We’ll deliver as large a margin as we can to send that message. The people matter, but it’s the message that will really stick. We got this.
Chris
@MinuteMan:
2020 was like 2008: the entire nation, including to some extent the media, was in such utter shock at the depth of the hole the Republican president had put us into, something that would have been literally unimaginable when that president was originally elected, that the usual narratives simply weren’t going to fly. Partly because the Democrats and swing voters that make up most of the NYT’s audience simply wouldn’t have bitten, or at least because the media didn’t think they would have bitten.
O. Felix Culpa
@CaseyL:
QFT. Standing O.
wil
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Not everybody is an 8-5 slave like you, kiddo. Some of us have skills and work from home when we feel like it. :)
Eyeroller
@MinuteMan: Since they supposedly love scandal so much you’d think they’d be over the moon with the Epstein papers. But apparently they only care about Democratic scandals.
And it’s interesting how rapidly CNN turned with the new right-wing management. Reminds me of a famous scene in Citizen Kane when he hires the top writers from his competitor:
Jedediah Leland: Bernstein, these men who are now with the Inquirer, who were with the Chronicle until yesterday…
[Jedediah pauses]
Jedediah Leland: Bernstein, Bernstein, these men who were with the Chronicle, weren’t they just as devoted to the Chronicle policies as they are now to our policies?
Mr. Bernstein: Sure they are just like anybody else. They got work to do, they do it. Only they happen to be the best men in the business.
Jedediah Leland: Do we stand for the same things the Chronicle stands for, Mr. Bernstein?
Mr. Bernstein: Certainly not. Listen, Mr. Kane will change them to his kind of newspapermen in a week.
jimmiraybob
@wil:
“My concerns aren’t about Biden’s excuses, but rather his feeble demeanor and inability to forcefully counter Trump.”
OFFS. The presidency is not a pro wrestling event.
His knowledge, experience and vision are far more important than being able to do a Tombstone Piledriver. He leads a team and the team has done remarkable work and will continue to do so.
Captain C
@Tony Jay:
I’m looking forward to “Why We Lied Constantly But You Really Should Trust Us And Only Us Going Forward”, a 2025 memoir by Peter Baker, Maga Habs, Pinch the Lesser, and the rest of the FTFNYT propaganda crew.
RaflW
@lowtechcyclist: Yup.
The NYT has apparently gone all-in on doing to Biden what they gleefully did to college presidents. And the lesson there was that the next leader gets the same shit shoveled on that the last one did.
Go, Joe. Go Biden-Harris.
Princess
@Chris Johnson: I would say it was a deliberate contrast in tone. One was angry, rude, and disdainful, designed to get people riled up against him. The other was same and rational “ more in sorrow than in anger.” Clearly meant to get some people siding with sane guy and others fighting with rude guy until positions got blurred and we were all fighting with each other.
oldgold
Biden was better in last night’s interview than in the debate debacle. But, not so much so as to fully staunch the bleeding.
At this point, I remain an agnostic. The midweek “high” quality polls will probably tell the tale.
Wil, I welcome your comments. Remain civil and do not let the Hallelujah Choir dissuade you from expressing your opinion here.
wil
@jimmiraybob: Biden doesn’t have to be able to do a flying guillotine off the top rope.
But if he appears feeble and weak and cannot forcefully prosecute a case against Trump, he WILL lose, and so will we all.
And if that feeble and weak old man that was on that interview last night is what we’ve got now, then Harris will do a better job and saying so isn’t some kind of heresy against the king.
lowtechcyclist
@BR:
Thanks, I’d seen several references to it in this thread, but if there was a link somewhere above, I missed it. As Roberts reminds us:
And as he says, none of that will change if we dump Biden for Harris or for anyone else. It’ll just give them fresh ammunition and a taste of blood on the water.
Absofuckinglutely.
Starfish
@wil: A President can’t beat Trump by out-Trumping him.
Last time, Biden beat Trump by being normal in a time that was very not normal.
I think that the general mood of Democrats is that “we want more fighters who will go hard on important issues” and “Biden’s word salad on women’s rights over their own bodies is not inspiring.”
But whether people want Biden or Harris as the Democratic candidate, everyone has been pretty clear that they would vote for a bowl of potato salad that has been sitting out in the sun too long over giving Trump anymore Supreme Court seats.
jimmiraybob
@Chris Johnson:
Buck the Fuck Up People and Help Kamala and I Curb-Stomp Fascism: Biden-Harris 2024
Buck the Fuck Up People and Help Kamala and I Curb-Stomp Fascism: Before the Unrepentant Convicted Felon Curb-Stomps American Democracy: Biden-Harris 2024
Chris Johnson
I can tell you a very good reason Balloon Juice would have drawn attention. John Cole was a Republican until Terri Schiavo. You’ll get much bigger numbers as a blog serving dedicated right-wingers, or dedicated left-wingers.
The thing that’s so compelling to me about this blog is that it’s got that crossover demographic. There’s loads of people here who, in other worlds, might be principled conservatives, or radical leftists. Balloon Juice is neat because it’s got good arguers and passionate views and a culture of debate.
This is ground zero for finding people who could be swayed to flip, or people who’d flipped and could flip back. If you’re trying to troll for effect, it’s not as useful to just reinforce folks who have already been persuaded, you go and try to find the middle. In a sense, that’s us.
Ain’t OUR fault that the fascists have gone so bonkers that the middle is ride or die for Biden. We’re still actually the middle. And horseshoe theory is also true: just as LGM has gone full Trump in effect, the pro-Ukraine super-leftist Vaush has gone full Trump in effect over the Biden narrative. He’s hating it, is miserable, but has bought the narrative completely and is freaking out. Other leftists have been a lot more stable.
wil
Captain C
@wil:
We’d be here ’til the end of time.
jimmiraybob
@wil:
What campaign are you working for?[See also: For what campaign are you working?]
Starfish
@oldgold: I did not watch the interview, but what you said is the impression I got from people who did.
Mr. Bemused Senior
That’s certainly what Adam Silverman would call it. Whether that’s over the top I leave to others to judge. There’s no question in my mind that we’re under constant attack.
Skippy-san
The vultures won’t stop till they get their pound of flesh. It is only a matter of time till a Comey moment happens.
The media wants Trump to win, even though they will be the first against the wall.
wil
@Starfish: Forcefully prosecuting the case against Trump is not “out-Trumping” him.
It is running a strong campaign and not hoping that the last gasp of gas in the car might just make it over the finish line one.more.time.
Making the mistake of thinking that Trump can’t win because our candidate is so strong is what happened in 2016.
If Harris can do a better job of winning, then she should be put in the position to do so.
O. Felix Culpa
I’ve written to my Senators and Congresswoman (all Dems) to support our ticket. I don’t want the NYT editorial board to disenfranchise me and millions of voters, or to choose our candidates for us. In the unlikely event that Biden steps down, it has to be Kamala. But until or unless that happens, it’s Joe. Ain’t no one else on the ballot to consider.
I’ve seen the quadrennial press feeding frenzy many, many times before. Ignore it and stand firm.
wil
@Captain C: Same to you, kiddo.
Captain C
@UncleEbeneezer:
Or alternately: Wife says OK, and winds up with a series of excellent lovers, much better than her husband, who has no success. Wife eventually leaves husband, who becomes a bitter MAGAt. Though this is not an analogy for the actual topic at hand.
There’s a word for JAQoffs who won’t take a no. I think it’s also properly used on TCFG.
Kay
@oldgold:
I’m with you on the “anyone concerned is a troll” issue. This is a good poll for Biden – I’m also not n the group who decided all polls were invalid when Biden polled poorly.
But this is genuinely good (in comparison to the bad polling we’ve been seeing – they’re still even) it’s Bloomberg, I think it’s reliable.
It may be paywalled- short answer- Biden is up slightly in 2 of 5 swing states, so they’re essentially even. So at least he’s not behind. I was hopig for some consolidation of the D base prior to debate disaster so maybe that’s happening in spite of Biden’s (and the Biden campaigns) problems? Let’s hope so.
Ken
Reminds me of something I’ve sometimes wondered. Just how do news stations pick the crew who get to stand out there in the 80 MPH wind and rain saying “This is a very dangerous category 4 storm now making landfall, authorities warn everyone to stay inside”?
Starfish
@wil: I don’t think people think our candidate is so strong.
In the poll supporting Harris over Biden, they were both down at least two points to Trump, weren’t they?
I don’t think people have the confidence this election that they had last election. The behavior you are seeing is from people who are scared. Whether people want to stick with Biden or switch to Harris, everyone is pretty darn scared of another Trump win.
However, a lot of the polls have been under-estimating Democrats, right?
Eolirin
@Chris Johnson: I don’t think this is going to prove to be correct. It assumes the court has restraint and will follow its own rules in a reasonable way.
By giving themselves the power to be the sole arbiter of what legislation says, even extremely straightforward language will be twisted to mean it’s opposite if it suits the court.
They will simply kill or rewrite any rule they feel like with the flimsiest of justifications. The executive branch is now subordinate to the judicial branch when it comes to rule making, end of story. The legislative branch is already subordinate when it comes to laws. The judiciary has seized all power for itself.
sab
@Eyeroller: There are some very nice pie pictures. Also other edibles, mostly candy.
artem1s
and oldgold tagteam has entered the building. Pie time
jimmiraybob
@wil: “If Harris can do a better job of winning, then she should be put in the position to do so.”
The second that Joe steps aside and Kamala takes the lead is the exact instant that the world sees weakness – Democrats in Disarray! It will be the exact instant that the Felon campaign declares incumbency – “I actually have experience as the greatest president of all time!!” ” Kamala is Obama x 1 gazzillion!” “Crazy Joe will just be running the country from the back room!!”
Captain C
@MinuteMan:
And supporting it by just not covering TCFG’s many, many blue screen moments. Really getting to Pravda-level shit here.
zhena gogolia
@Kay: The link seems to be broken.
sab
@Chris Johnson: Does that mean somebody out there takes us jackals seriously?
Chris
@Eyeroller:
The real tell for the media was that in 2016, they spent the entire year obsessing over classified email server management best practices, while completely ignoring the sex, mob ties, and Russian spies behind door number two.
This is not something you do organically if you just like “scandals” and “clickbait” generically. The email story isn’t an inherent eyeball-grabber: it took a Herculean lift by the media to make it into the biggest scandal of 2016, and to this day there isn’t one in ten people who can actually tell you what the scandal is supposed to have been, they just know it was NYT headline news every week until Hillary lost the election.
There is no explanation of 2016 that doesn’t lead to “the media isn’t simply shallow or vapid or uninterested; it’s actively hostile to Democrats, not as a byproduct of some stupider reason, but as an actual ideological decision.”
Chris Johnson
@Eolirin: I daresay that’s true, but it assumes no agency on behalf of the administrative state, and you’re understating how much of an over-reach it is.
I think you’re right AND I think it’s something of an own-goal. Again, I checked what Beau of the Fifth Column thought about it, he’s been pretty solid on things, and he also thinks this will not work out nearly as well for the right wing as they think it will.
I admit I don’t know the details and could be wrong. It’s just a sense that, when you make a boogeyman and call it ‘the Deep State!’ and run around trying to find one weird trick by which you can magically obliterate your huge imagined enemy… your actions might not really be as effective as you’d wish, back in reality.
Ken
Why would anyone be surprised by this? Chatbots “convincingly” repeat stories from the Onion and reddit, because their trainers, in their desperation to find enough text, just pointed them at the whole internet, ignoring the question of data quality. It’s the automation of the “I did my own research” philosophy.
Mike E
@prostratedragon: “Don’t forget: White women voted for Trump”
I’d amend that sign with the correction: “vote”
Kay
@Starfish:
This is just not a good measure, IMO. I wish it were, but it’s not. Democrats are outperforming Biden. “Democrats” and “Biden” have diverged. One no longer predicts the other. That’s what makes this so insanely frustrating to try to figure out or look at rationally.
Polls aren’t underestimating D Senate candidates. Polls aren’t underestimating Dobbs referendum races. So they’re only underestimating Joe Biden? Why would that be?
wil
@Starfish: Polls have been underestimating Democrats in state-level special elections, and that’s good as far as it goes.
Democrats have been overperforming polling in special elections by an average of 11 points.
So…good.
But yeah, we are all terrified of another Trump presidency, and those of us thinking Biden should step aside are terrified that Biden is too stubborn and too protected by his equally stubborn staff to do it. Saying he would do so “if Almighty God came down and told me to” and no other way was not reassuring.
Yes, there are a few not-so-bad polls for Biden.
Biden just looks feeble and weak, and like it or not the swing voters in about 3-6 swing states decide elections, and they aren’t going on policy wins, they are going on impressions.
And Biden’s impression is weak and wavering. It does not seem to be improving. Having good days and bad days is not the same as ‘improving’
There is another debate in September. Think Biden will do any better?
Chris Johnson
@sab: I’m afraid so XD
Kay
@zhena gogolia:
Sorry.
Nukular Biskits
@Leto:
On the beach side? Other than the casinos (and associated infrastructure), there really wasn’t that much south of 90 for most of the Hwy 90 stretch between the Ocean Springs bridge and Gulfport pre-Katrina. Of course, that was dependent where you were talking specifically. For example, right at the Point Cadet area, there was (and still is) a bunch of things on that side of 90. Are you thinking Sharkheads?
But, yes, it’s still a lot of empty space. Keep in mind, though, a lot of that was set aside for the least terns nesting.
Mike E
@Chris Johnson: Cambridge Analytical, we’re getting played like a Gameboy in a bucket of candy
Eolirin
@cmorenc: It doesn’t help your case that the quality of your arguments has been absolute trash.
Nukular Biskits
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
Reminds me of that classic about the The Wrongness Singularity.
Mike E
@artem1s: good fucking god, peeps’ handlers oughta step in and put grandpa and meemaw in computer timeout if they can’t stop jerking off the trolls here
UncleEbeneezer
@Captain C: A sex podcaster that I listen to made this point the other day about a similar kink/life-style:
(paraphrased) Men, you have to learn not to push her, AT ALL, on any kink/lifestyle after you’ve brought it up once. Trust me, if you push, that’s the one way to destroy any hope you might have had. It’s the biggest freaking turn-off in the world and too many men simply refuse to listen and learn to STFU.
Right now what we are seeing Media, and Commenters of all genders being TooManyMen on this topic. Let it fucking go.
If Biden announces he’s stepping down (heaven forbid), we can all very quickly shift to the conversation that requires. But there’s absolutely no upside (and a shit-load of downside) to trying to force it, now.
Soprano2
@wil: Maybe he’s going to kick them in the ass.
laura
Whole lotta wrassling a greasy pig going on in here. Looks like time to head to Black Twitter where the odds and the stakes are clear about old handsome Joe vs the childf*cking shite-bag who’s running to avoid prison. On my way out I’d like to advise lil johnny work from from home to shit in his hand and clap.
Citizen Alan
@wil:
Name one.
Steeplejack
@Raven:
Tour de France until noon EDT on NBC!
zhena gogolia
@Kay: Thank you!
wil
@UncleEbeneezer: I think that’s the first time I’ve even seen Joe Biden compared to a woman being propositioned for some type of sex act.
OTOH, Nixon would never have resigned if members of his own party had not gone to him and told him the jig was up.
Not to compare Biden to Nixon, but people don’t always do the right thing or the thing that needs to be done if you just wait and hope they eventually will.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Speaking as one of the “Was a Republican until…” crowd it doesn’t work like that. From my personal experience it’s “I would rather drink poison first than vote for something with a R next to it’s name again. As lest poison is quicker.” And voting D consistently is the only known antidote to R.
But, if one is Blinded by the Right, like that Middle Manager who’s today’s Balloon Juice guest troll, then one is sure all that needed to bring back the straying sheep back into fold is show them their awesomeness.
zhena gogolia
@Mike E: 😂
Citizen Alan
@wil:
Fuck you.
O. Felix Culpa
@Citizen Alan:
Please consider that the troll has been adequately fed, and move on
ETA: How is life in California?
Kay
If the Dobbs vote is showing up in referendum polling and the Dobbs vote is showing up in Congressional polling then the Dobbs vote should be showing up in Biden’s polling. It is. It’s already in there.
Soprano2
@wil: I like Harris, but I don’t think she can beat TCFG. It would be like Hillary with added racism, plus a helping of “feckless, weak Democrats”. Did you know there’s a chance any Democrat could lose to TCFG, mostly because of racism and sexism and other stupid stuff that has nothing to do with the quality of the candidate?
Starfish
Damn, Oliver Willis. Go after the press
wil
@Citizen Alan: There are no guarantees, but the only possible replacement for Biden is Harris, because she is legally the only one with access to the hundreds of millions of campaign dollars the Biden/Harris campaign has raised.
So the question is not ‘name one’
The question is ‘could Harris do a better job of beating Trump than Biden?”
After the interview last night, I’m beginning to believe she can.
Citizen Alan
@wil: pied
wil
@Citizen Alan:
Sorry pointing out the obvious bothers you so much.
Uncle Cosmo
Keep your pointy widduw head stuck high up your arse for all I care. And spend your time fighting for enough oxygen to sustain whatever caricature of a life you lead.
IOW, fuck the fuck off and die in a fire, arsehole.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@UncleEbeneezer: Speaking of that, there was this professional Dominatrix on this forum I was following that was positing about how her boyfriend was demanded they do threesomes with another woman. She pointed out on her website she had “no girl on girl” listed under things she wouldn’t do, and his reply was that proves she’s prude.
Citizen Alan
@O. Felix Culpa: Hot, but it’s a dry heat. 110 in Fresno is still better than 95 in Mississippi.
wil
@Soprano2:
That’s fine. I’m increasingly believing that Biden can’t beat Trump, though.
That doesn’t mean that I know Harris can. Just that Biden can’t.
Mike E
@Starfish: Jesus that first paragraph though.
FDRLincoln
Biden has been his normal self in every venue since the debate. I am no longer worried about that aspect of it.
The press pile on is ridiculous, especially since Trump has vowed to imprison and kill journalists and now has the power to do it thanks to the ghastly Supreme Court decision. Does the press have no sense of self-preservation?
Anyway, my worries and fear have turned to anger and determination.
The GOP wants us to doubt. The Russian trolls want us afraid and divided.
Fuck that.
Vote Biden-Harris to save America. Because Biden has been a good president, and the alternative is literal dictatorship.
gwangung
@wil: Actually, that’s just your confirmation bias.
Not surprising for someone who won’t provide evidence when asked.
Kay
I said I would support whoever the Party supports and I will but I would be more comfortable if there were a recognition that we are behind, we were behind prior to the debate disaster and now we are further behind. I understand why the Biden campaign can’t say this – although O’Malley (to her credit) is not actually a liar so she doesn’t say she’s winning.
Trump is on track to win unless something changes. Now, the change could be an ordinary one, like Democrats coming “home” or it could be external – Trump fucks up (almost guaranteed) but right now that is the status. Dobbs is in. Biden is getting all he can out of that. “Behind” doesn’t mean “will lose” but I’m just more comfortable with admitting it and getting on with it. This feels like reading Romney supporters in 2012. I don’t like that.
Eyeroller
@Mike E: Really stands out how even somebody like Oliver has to genuflect to the Narrative framing before he gets to his real point.
Also every thread is now so full of pie it’s hard to see anything else, but it was barely commented on how the Vanity Fair article on RFK Jr. threw in a completely gratuitous and unprofessional statement about Biden’s “fatally faltering” campaign.
Gvg
@OzarkHillbilly: It would make more of a legal point and standard if we the voters and legislators did it. He is clearly and common sense on the take. Bribed and corrupt. He needs to be impeached. Made an example of. Alito is also but I am not as sure we could get a conviction with the public. I am aware Congress is a problem. Not sure of the split between how many of them are corrupt and how many of them see it as a team politics issue to protect the justices. It is tangled together. Both sides are not equal but if we can’t make progress, eventually it will corrupt more democrats. The FBI and the justice department need to bring successful cases against corrupt legislators to break log jams if there are some as I suspect. I think they have avoided some. I have always suspected McConnell for instance. I really don’t see why they can’t go after a Supreme Court justice for the same laws as an ordinary judge or official. I don’t think the laws spell out an exception.
wil
@gwangung:
Sure…nothing going on. Pay no attention. Everybody who thinks Biden should step aside is just a Russian troll, or a MAGA imposter, or an AI-generated bot.
Riiiight.
Kay
@wil:
Well, but he’s not stepping down. He’s not. And they’re not going to remove him. So here we are. He’s the candidate. We’re behind. Let’s get on with it.
Glidwrith
@Eolirin:
@Chris Johnson: Something else which has been overlooked: the judiciary itself. All those judges, decades of experience, watching SCROTUM just destroy proper jurisprudence, hugely increasing their workload. What are they doing about this crap behind the scenes?
UncleEbeneezer
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: And this is the same bullshit response we are seeing from the people insisting that we talk about what we’ve said we don’t wanna talk about now. Notice how they call our honesty and straightforwardness: bullying, aggressive, demand-to-fall-in-line, BlueMAGA etc. Tone-policing our response to make us the big meanies who don’t believe in free speech and them the oppressed. It’s classic trolling.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, … ProPublica.org:
Cheers,
Scott.
wil
@Kay: If he has not stepped down by the convention, so be it. Like you, I will support the Dem candidate whoever it is.
But right now we just don’t know. These things don’t happen overnight, and even though it seems a month ago already, that debate was just last week.
Pressure is still building. Remains to be seen where it goes or what it does.
Leto
@Eyeroller: no, that popped out immediately and I just stopped reading from there. I’ve seen how much of shitheel Jr is, has been, for a while now. I’m sure once someone spent an ounce of effort scratching the surface it was going to be worse than we thought. Did they need to take a swipe at Biden in the process? Ofc not, but we’ve already outlined why they’re doing that so…
Glidwrith
@sab: We should be taken seriously. Any group of people that can successfully raise thousands of dollars at the drop of a hat and manage the logistics of transporting animals across the country just by talking to each other on a blog?
Damn right we should be taken seriously!
Kay
I tried something new this cycle – I gave a nice chunk of money to two R – leaning D county parties in MI. I wanted to see what they could do with it, if they could use it in some county-specific way they though could narrow margins. One of the two has Debbie Stabenow zooming in tonight to talk to D’s. I don’t think this is tied to Biden – I think it’s what she does ordinarily – but I’ll go and see what is said. She’s a straight shooter.
Starfish
@Eyeroller: It’s not just him. This is the ONLY place that I am seeing still going hard for Biden.
Margaret Sullivan is usually a pretty straight shooter. “Is Kamala Harris ‘electable’?”
Kay
The counties are R leaning. Obviously not the Democratic county organizations :)
Captain C
@gwangung:
Trolls, bots, and wankers never do.
Eolirin
@Chris Johnson: I mean, sure. The clearest most obvious problem with them playing Calvinball with the regulatory state is that businesses and the public won’t like what happens when rules can change at the drop of a hat based on what a bunch of judges decide. The agencies have formalized processes that give people time to know what’s coming and provide feedback. And then it was stable because after at most six years there’d be no chance of a challenge.
Now that can get flipped in a minute by a court challenge, regardless of how long it’s been settled law. That kind of regulatory uncertainty is going to fuck up the business community in the long run.
People are also gonna get pissed when their food starts having heavy metals in it and is parasite ridden because all the food safety laws have been defanged.
We have the example of what happened when Reagan gutted the EPA. His administration was forced to fix it because even the business community freaked out over not knowing what standards to apply and not wanting to get into a race to the bottom with their competitors that would torch their PR.
This sort of thing only flies in an oligarchic dictatorship like Russia, and that’s clearly what they’re trying to remake America into. But it requires complete industry consolidation into as few hands as possible and a government that is not even a little responsive to its citizens.
Otherwise it doesn’t work. And the power they’ve seized for themselves can only be used with extreme restraint without causing massive backlash until those conditions are met. They seem to get this, because they didn’t gut OSHA when they had the chance. Project 2025 will give them the power base they need to try to go for everything, but they can’t do it if they don’t win.
wil
President Biden’s approval rating is now at an all-time low of 36.9%, per FiveThirtyEight.
I love dismissing polls and polling averages….but this has been going on for a long time now.
It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it is what it is.
Leto
@Nukular Biskits: basically Sharkheads and the mile before and after it. There was a lot of stuff there but Katrina wiped the slate clean. I know they were proposing putting condo’s out there afterwards, but I’m glad that was shut down. We lived off DeBuy’s Rd, north side of the railroad tracks. I just looked at Google Maps of the area… man, lot of changes. Lot of changes.
Eyeroller
@Leto: The threads have been so derailed that we got sidetracked from discussing RFK Jr at all, which was supposedly the topic of the article and the post. But it’s another example of media groupthink and unprofessionalism.
Well, of course RFK Jr doesn’t really deserve any discussion.
Eolirin
@Kay: Biden underperforming other democrats doesn’t tell us anything about whether polls are continuing the tendency to be systematically off we’ve seen with all of the special elections, with actual election outcomes being, I think it was 8 points better for us on average.
If there’s a systematic bias like that going into the election, senate candidates will still outperform Biden (probably, though some amount of this will also come down to how undecideds break, and they’ll prolly break late), Biden will just do things like win Florida by a very small margin.
There’s no evidence that that trend will hold though. Special elections and midterms have different kinds of turnout and the bias may or may not be there.
wil
@Eyeroller: RFK Jr. was the previous article.
Eolirin
@Kay: Referedum and congressional polling where we have actual election results was off by multiple points. In some cases, like Kansas, by double digits.
But again, special elections aren’t necessarily going to tell us much.
wil
@Starfish: Unfortunately Margaret Sullivan does not actually get into the question of “Is Kamala Harris electable” in that post on her site.
lowtechcyclist
@Mr. Bemused Senior:
Without venturing an opinion about whether what we’re in can legitimately be called a world war, I’ve gotta say that if it can, the number wouldn’t be III, because the Cold War was far more of a world war than what’s going on now. The USSR + Warsaw Pact was far more formidable an adversary for US/NATO and other allies than Russia is now, and wars and revolutions took place from Cuba and Latin America to Korea and Southeast Asia.
By any standard by which the current conflict constitutes a world war, the Cold War was WWIII so this would presumably be WWIV.
Addendum: the GWOT doesn’t make the cut. Fuck Bush, Cheney, and all the rest of that crew.
Chris Johnson
@lowtechcyclist: I must respectfully disagree.
With the WWIII techniques being used to exploit losses from COVID, the death toll is way more than anything we’ve previously seen. It’s legit WWIII, and we’re still in it. The details of the weaponry are still kinda being settled, but it ain’t bloodless by a long, long shot. In some ways it’s a bigger death toll than traditional warfare.
O. Felix Culpa
@Citizen Alan: Sorry, I got called away from keyboard warrior duties. Glad it’s reasonably comfortable for you. Hope the new job is good too.
lowtechcyclist
@Mike E:
White men, OTOH, are just a force of nature, so no point in saying how that demographic voted. //
UncleEbeneezer
As of now: Anne Laurie, John Cole, WaterGirl, Tamara, and MisterMix have all mocked/criticized the freak out, explained its’ danger and urged people not to keep pressing for this dumb idea/conversation of replacing Biden.
As have TheThinBlackDuke, Rikyrah and SisterGoldenGirl (all sometimes, FP posters) and probably others too. There will never be 100% agreement on anything in any political space but the majority consensus of this space seems pretty damn clear to me (especially from the most marginalized voices with the most at stake) and should be respected.
All these very wise members of our coalition have asked y’all to stop. Just stop already!
lowtechcyclist
@FDRLincoln:
They will be completely clueless right up to the moment the leopards start chowing down on their faces.
Kay
@Eolirin:
Ohio’s referendum polling was dead-on. Dobbs voters haven’t been a silent majority. We’re pretty loud.
Why is just about every swing state senate candidate doing better in polling than Joe Biden? If this were “the economy” or “we hate Democrats” that wouldn’t be true.
We’re behind. I just hope it’s by 2 (pre debate) rather than by 6 (post debate).
Kay
@Eolirin:
I worked on the Ohio referendum. Spoke with probably more than a hundred women. I think I have a good sense of how far Dobbs will get us and the limits.
lowtechcyclist
@Chris Johnson:
With what?
I didn’t say this wasn’t a world war. I just said that IF it IS one, then it’s WWIV, because the Cold War was more of a world war than what’s going on now. So I’m open to three possible numberings:
1) WWI, WWII, and no other numbered world wars
2) WWI, WWII, Cold War = WWIII, and no other numbered world wars
3) WWI, WWII, Cold War = WWIII, and we’re in WWIV
Kay
@Eolirin:
I don’t even give a shit if Biden has issues. He’s an executive. Who he hires matters much more than anything else and Trump has issues too. And, he’s obviously not stepping down. But they need a way forward. They’re behind. I’m really uncomfortable with the level of denial he showed in that interview.
TheflipPsyd
@Eyeroller: I wonder if the blog has come to the attention of these forces because the blog has raised a fair amount of cash for various democratic causes
kalakal
@Tony Jay:
Sounds good to me, they’re a bunch of muppets
Layer8Problem
@kalakal: We may feel we want to go as far as Elmo Musk’s form letter response to press queries, but let’s never go that far. Fozzie Bear will do. A few “wokka wokka”s will force them into submission.
Gvg
@Captain C: Trump has shown signs of either always having been an idiot or cognitive decline since he started running in 2016. He has said one idiotic impossible stupid thing after another. I am not talking about lies, I am talking about drinking bleach, nuking hurricanes, using nukes, being smart just because his uncle was, UV alights inside a human to kill Covid, and not knowing how stupid he sounded when he boasted about acing a simple test.
He has never been able to talk in coherent sentences so that educated people could be certain what the heck he really meant. Since he was also uneducated on so many subjects but confident he was right, he said a lot. Rich man stupidity, he fired anyone who tried to correct him, instead of listening his whole life. That made him more unfit to lead anything than Biden if Biden had a stroke.
Uncle Cosmo
It’s World War O-For-Oligarchs and it’s been going on ever since The Bastards Of The Universe sounded out Smedley Butler for overthrowing FDR after the 1932 election.
They own the world, every frackin’ atom of it. And they want it back, all of it. And they won’t be satisfied this time with a bended knee, they want each and every human bean on both knees pounding their foreheads into the cold stone floor before their golden thrones. Bastards!
Bill Arnold
@wil:
The New York Times does not have reliable USA political coverage. They have been seriously in the tank for Republicans since roughly 2015.
Did you take their Hillary/email server long and damaging series of stories seriously? It was purified bullshit, and it did seriously political damage to Clinton, and the shape of their emails narrative was dropped largely unchanged onto Hunter Biden.
wil
@Bill Arnold: I quoted the NYT on a story about top House Dems meeting to decide what to do about Biden.
That meeting is happening regardless of your opinion of the NYT.
different-church-lady
There seems to be something going on, I’m seeing both here and at LGM: the “newbies” keep quoting NYTs articles as proof, seemingly without knowing both joints are extremely distrustful of the honest intent of that outlet.
Smells kinda coordinated.
Layer8Problem
@Bill Arnold: Did anything indictable ever turn up with their book tie in with Clinton Cash? Anything beyond the usual Times “clouds and shadows”? At least a pony? I mean skulduggery was afoot! I think the Republicans controlled at least two branches of government over the next few years, including a Justice Department! Why didn’t this obvious bad behavior result in grand juries, prosecutions, and jail time? “There was nothing there and it was a pile of innuendo” couldn’t be the answer!
Skippy-san
@different-church-lady: Don’t forget that LGM agreed with NY Post this morning. https://nypost.com/2024/07/06/us-news/president-bidens-physician-met-with-parkinsons-disease-specialist-in-white-house/
Jinchi
I think it’s important to point out that the whole reason Biden had to push the federal proposal requiring heat protections for workers is because Republican politicians like DeSantis have been explicitly banning cities from requiring them.
Republicans are trying to get people killed.
Nukular Biskits
@Leto:
Sorry for the late response … was outside like a fool cutting grass.
Yeah, time here is jokingly referred to as either “BK” or “AK”. There have been a LOT of changes and there is still a lot of beachfront property on the north side of 90 that is vacant. Same thing over in Pascagoula like where former Senator Trent Lott lived.
Captain C
@lowtechcyclist:
Journalist: “But you can’t eat MYYYYYY face!!! I’m in the media!!!! It’s the LAW!!!! I HEELLLPPPPPED YOU!!!!”
Clarence Thomas: “I’ll gladly rule that the leopards can eat journalist faces on Tuesday if they give me a faceburger today.”
Nukular Biskits
I figure this thread is about dead but I’ll throw this in for the concern trolls who keep insisting Biden needs to be replaced on the ticket:
DailyKos: Switching out Biden won’t save Democrats from its critics
I agree with Kos on this.
Bill Arnold
@wil:
That is some laughable bullshit. I will not bother explaining.
Miki
@Another Scott: Wow. Just wow.
Thanks so much for this.
That’s the same guy who showed up and wowed us at the State of the Union. And the same guy that was there last night.
And the same guy I’m voting for in November.
I’m with Joe.
Soprano2
@wil: This meeting might be to shore him up and allow people with concerns to express them. The only power these people have is to get behind the D ticket, period. Anything else on their part is political malpractice.
I still want to know who the Democrats texting their panic to John King are, because doing that was idiotic and counterproductive.