Breaking via The Post: (gift link)
The jury in Manhattan federal court found the once-powerful New Jersey lawmaker guilty on all 16 felony counts. They include bribery, extortion, wire fraud, conspiracy, obstruction of justice and acting as a foreign agent for Egypt from 2018 to 2022, when Menendez was at the height of his influence in Washington, serving as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee or as the panel’s top Democrat while his party was in the minority. ..
Menendez did not testify in his own defense. His team is expected to appeal, and legal experts say he could be helped by the Supreme Court’s rulings in recent years narrowing the scope of federal bribery laws.
But the 70-year-old senator’s political downfall is essentially complete. New Jersey Democrats abandoned him after his indictment. He declined to seek the party’s nomination for a fourth term and instead mounted a long-shot bid as an independent in a state where Democrats have held both U.S. Senate seats for more than 50 years.
Good. I hate public corruption in all circumstances, but it’s especially odious to me when perpetrated by a Democrat because it lends false credence to the “both sides” lie.
Here’s hoping Gold Bar is soon a guest at the Gray Bar Hotel and New Jersey is represented by a better man in Andy Kim.
Open thread!
PS: Figures that the corrupt SCOTUS is now Gold Bar’s only hope. It’s the last refuge not only of unaccountable wannabe dictators but also of malevolent scalawags of every stripe.
Pets one request – Ferd of the Nort – Puppies Day 6! (Open Thread)
Jeffro
First Hunter, now Bob. When will the Biden false-flag/psyops/whatever the term is END??? We know who the real crime lord is in this country, Joe! Yer not foolin’ anyone!!
-MAGA, somehow
Jeffro
btw I popped over to Fox News dot com, to see if this would get the same low-key treatment as it would if a Republican had just been convicted.
SCREAMING all-red 72-point headlines. But of course.
While I was there, I saw that – at least in FoxPunditLand – none other than ol’ Vivek is being considered for J.D. Vance’s seat in the Senate. I would not have imagined that after J.D., one could actually find a lower-grade replacement, but I guess all things are indeed possible in our blessed multiverse.
Vivek might be too much, even for Ohio Rs. I dunno. Here’s hoping we (and they) don’t have to find out. =)
M31
has anyone asked Vance why he isn’t resigning his Senate seat immediately? doesn’t he have faith in Trump?
Belafon
The difference being there are nearly zero Democrats defending him.
Old Man Shadow
I love old time insults and would love to see more
Example: JD Vance is a fopdoodle, ninnyhammer, white livered wrinkler!
rodwell
As a NJ resident, could not be happier. Also, proud of the way the Democratic establishment threw Gold Bar right under the bus. This was led by Andy Kim who announced for his seat the day after Gold Bar’s indictment. Andy will be a Senator that NJ and this country will be proud of. I have been donating to him since he first ran and won in NJ-3. He defeated Tom MacArthur who wrote the bill to repeal the ACA.
CaseyL
Reposting from below (via Laffy on Mastodon):
I’m a little nervous about this, in view of our thin majority in the Senate, but it’s a good move to remind people that Democrats stand for integrity.
M31
I’d like to see Menendez say he’ll only resign if Clarence Thomas and Alito do as well, otherwise it’s just criminalizing gratuities.
I’d almost have respect for the stupid grifter if he did that.
BellyCat
Integrity is presumptively immune from prosecution.
Yutsano
@CaseyL: Phil Murphy can just appoint Andy Kim to replace Menendez right away. Then he’ll not only be the incumbent at that point he’ll be set up to win election.
Manyakitty
@Yutsano: and a separate replacement for his seat in the House?
Villago Delenda Est
Next TCFFG/PAB campaign promise: “I will pardon Gold Bar Bob.”
Jackie
@CaseyL: It’s the correct thing to do – which means Menendez won’t.
Should Menendez do the right thing, NJ’s gov could name a Democratic placeholder in his seat until the General Election.
Villago Delenda Est
@Old Man Shadow: “Progeny of a demented calot!”
Captain C
@M31: “I hereby resign my position as Senator from New Jersey, effective the moment that Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito’s resignations from the Supreme Court take effect. Also, if they have any honor, they will turn themselves in for and plead guilty to extensive bribery and whatever other crimes of corruption they have committed in, including admitting in writing exactly what they have done and who bribed them.”
If only.
TBone
I just want to point out that my beloved Senator Fetterman was right six months ago in how he treated stupid questions by the press. Menendez got off the wrong elevator that day 😆
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fetterman-dares-menendez-to-run-for-reelection-doubles-down-on-call-for-his-expulsion/ar-AA1mIyrW
Jawn don’t play.
Villago Delenda Est
The Vichy Times and Pravda on the Potomac, OTOH, love it!
Villago Delenda Est
@Captain C: I have a better chance of being named the Prince of Wales.
TBone
@BellyCat: it doesn’t require preemptive pardons either. Unlike some of the cult members.
Duke of Clay
Wait! Doesn’t he have full Senatorial immunity for any crimes committed at any time?
Joseph Nobles
I was assured that the DOJ was weaponized against Republicans only. What the what?
oldster
SCOTUS already ruled on this matter:
Accepting bribes is totally legal.
Unless you’re a Democrat.
Sorry, Bob. If you wanted to take bribes, you should have joined the other party.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Good. That crook is embarrassing us. Get him out of the Senate
TBone
Open thread xit that is ⚡ and says what we need to shout at all comers:
https://x.com/KaivanShroff/status/1812686677548077069
Take your gaslighting bullshit and shove it!!!
Mike E
Oops, well, LGM is performing readership capture that will lead to commenter rapture.
ascap_scab
Ingrid Andress delivers one of the worst drunken renditions of the National Anthem ever at the Home Run Derby.
It is a must watch. Find it.
Mike E
@ascap_scab: she posted this tweet about her state at the time of her performance.
Central Planning
@ascap_scab: Maybe that’s why she’s only “Grammy nominated”
ETA – glad she’s getting help
Betty Cracker
@oldster: Menendez skated on a previous corruption charge thanks to precedent set by the SCOTUS ruling in the McDonnell (R-Va) case. I guess the axiom is “better a corrupt Dem go free than 100 corrupt Repubs (plus our lifetime appointee selves) get punished.”
ssdd
@Mike E: well, it’s not going to get me or my monthly patreon contribution back.
Captain C
@Mike E:
That sounds like a polite version of Loomis in his music threads.
ETA: Just so it’s clear, that’s from the link, not Mike E.
Sister Golden Bear
@Mike E: You will RESPECT mah
au-thor-it-tee!pun-di-tree!!!Old Man Shadow
@Villago Delenda Est: Rumbumptious gasser! :)
Captain C
@Captain C: One of the first comments from the LGM post Mike E linked to:
MisterForkbeard
@Mike E: Yeah, I’ve been in that thread. Most of their commenters are basically saying “Look, if you stop focusing on stupid shit or spend all of your time DOOOOOMing, we won’t make fun of you”.
The FPer response seems to be “if you make fun of us for the things we’ve said we’re going to ban you”, which is a nice take. Ugh
@Betty Cracker: You know, I’m just glad that the Biden DOJ goes after corrupt officials regardless of party. Because they do their jobs.
Old Man Shadow
@Mike E: Yeah. They seem mystified that their readers would be upset by them constantly agreeing with Republicans that our candidate is an old, feeble loser who needs to resign.
Oh, well. I’ll find a new political blog to hang around.
Chet Murthy
@Captain C: I have to say, I’m disappointed in the LG&M readership and the way they’re dumping on the FPers. This is a factual matter that they’re disputing, and one on which I disagree with the FPers. But it’s quite possible, maybe (geez I hope not) even probable that they’re right. To accuse them of bad faith as so many commenters do, is ….. well, it’s disappointing. And I’m one of those who believes that Biden is our best shot, and that if it’s not Biden or Harris, We. Are. Fucked. I can separate my hopes and my beliefs, what I *wish*, from a discussion of what *is*.
KrackenJack
@Captain C: Haven’t been over to LGM for nearly two years. Doesn’t sound as though things have gotten better. Guess the next step is going full John Henry with the banhammer.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mike E:
Good for her. I hope she gets the help she needs.
Betty Cracker
@Chet Murthy: Thank you. I rarely read LGM, but the way long-time commenters here get attacked for deviating from the prevailing view is disappointing.
Mike E
…and, here’s a nine minute talk by another site founder who takes a much different approach to his online community*
*I know, I know, Dkos comment threads are ridiculous most of the time but good on him being upfront on this
Chet Murthy
@Betty Cracker: When I worked in enterprise I/T, I observed that many execs at my company were unwilling to accept diagnoses of what was coming for the company’s business, b/c the prescribed remedy was too painful. [Narrator: it came as predicted, it was painful, and the company is still in the process of controlled flight into terrain.] I was told this literally several times by friends (people of good will and good faith with whom I am still friends today, so real friends). I think this inability to separate diagnosis from remedy is widespread in the human population, perhaps it’s connected with the way that optimism is adaptive, even if it’s inaccurate.[1]
I think too many people are unwilling to discuss the idea that they might be wrong about truly life–or-death decisions. It’s too bad, but also It. Is. What. It. Is. (as a famous philosopher once said about COVID). That’s OK, because this is a community of good will that do good (nay excellent) things, so I surely do not want to disturb the optimism that makes those things posssible.
[1] I read that depressed people are more accurate in their predictions than normies. But OTOH, being accurate doesn’t help when faced with life-or-death situations, b/c you have to -win-, and as (IIRC) Napoleon said, the will to fight is, like, 10x as compared to the wherewithal to fight. Optimism probably increases the will to fight.
Old Man Shadow
@Chet Murthy: We’re in a war for the future and soul of America.
My issue is that when you use your platform to start attacking and sniping at our leader, you’re helping the enemy, and we need all of our efforts focused on defeating that enemy and winning this battle.
The debate about Joe Biden should have happened last year. We all knew he was aging. If we wanted a different candidate, we had Phillips.
Constantly creating doubt about our ticket and demoralizing folks with DOOOOOM just… well, it isn’t helping.
Granted, many folks still aren’t paying attention, but if anyone is, they’re going to get a dose of “Wow, even Democrats think Biden is too old and feeble to do the job. They don’t have confidence in their man. I guess the GOP is right.”
WaterGirl
Yay on one more count, too!
If he had been found not guilty, there was talk that he was going to run as an Independent, and that could have cost us the Senate.
geg6
@Mike E:
Saw that. Jesus, talk about your snowflakes.
Mike E
@Betty Cracker: if reacting in shock and pushing back on repetitive, baseless commenting is “attacking” then your disappointment will continue. Nobody (except trolls) wants a fight but this crap can’t go unchallenged. It’s all opinion until it’s not.
Ishiyama
Here is some food for thought: Iran is trying to assassinate Trump, the Secret Service has been aware of the plot & increased his security. The shooter carried no i.d., was seen acting erratically , has no obvious motive. WMG: foreign agents had some hold over him; threatened his family, brainwashed, whatever. Patently false, but not disprovable.
cain
@TBone: What’s that flag that JD has on his right side? Looks like a bullseye with stars.
clay
I haven’t been to LGM in a few years. Do the FPers state what happens after Biden is dumped? Because I have more respect for people who will put forth a plan than those who just magically assume that booting Joe will make everything okay.
Old Man Shadow
@clay: Harris would be the candidate. Every Democrat would then get on board and support her. The media wouldn’t have the “old” card to play any longer (nevermind the smears of Harris they’ve indulged in), there would be no lingering resentments or anger from Democrats, and somehow the story of “Democrats forced president to resign for being sad, old loser” won’t hurt our chances in November.
Chet Murthy
@Mike E: @Old Man Shadow: I listened to the entire speech. It was a great speech. Again: I listened to the entire speech. And I’ll note three different discussion forums and their differing characteristics:
Daily Kos: a -directly- and -purposely- campaign-driven discussion forum. Everything about the place is aimed at political campaigns and activism. Of COURSE Markos gives a narrative that will fire up his troops — he would be an idiot and a bad leader to do otherwise
B-J: somewhat involved in campaigns, and to that extent, again, pessimism is not accepted and there’s a lot of pushback against it.
LG&M: not at all involved in campaigns, explicitly so
This is a poli-sci blog, it’s not B-J, and it’s certainly not dKos. The idea that on a polisci blog it is treated as in bad faith to discuss what seems obvious to professionals in the field, is pretty sad. And again, I disagree with the FPers on the substantive issue.
I’m not going to go thru the various arguments the FPers adduce in their favor, b/c fundamentally I know that Biden is our best chance and it doesn’t matter if he’s going down: the idea that somehow changing the candidate will improve things is like “we must do something; this is something; lets do it!” But that doesn’t mean that it isn’t legitimate to discuss these things, again, on a poli-sci blog that explicitly eschews campaigning.
geg6
@Chet Murthy:
Bullshit. The Parkinson’s thing has still not let up. No one knows what course is the best to take with re: Biden but wild speculation from FPers as to his medical status is ridiculously fact free.
The Parkinson’s stuff is really, really bad and for Farley to try to say they are all experts on the shit they post about is beyond parody. Yes, some of their posts are about their various fields of expertise. But I don’t think any of them have an MD, let alone a specialty in gerontology or neurology. And further, even if they did, none of them have examined him or done a deep dive into his medical records.
Lastly, some of the FPers (hi Erik!) there are so dismissive and rude to their commenters when they disagree with them that I don’t understand why anyone would comment there. But it’s really funny (not in a ha ha ha way) that what’s good for the goose is not even close to good enough for the gander.
I have been steering clear of LGM mostly for the last year because I dislike the tone so much. But watching the last two weeks has been one of the only joys of this timeline. I have to say watching certain FPers flounder around trying to maintain their “expert” persona in the face of a commenters revolt is highly entertaining!
oldster
@Chet Murthy:
Very well said.
There’s a genuine factual issue at dispute, and nobody has figured out the answer. The consequences of getting it wrong are very high — high for us, higher for the rest of the world. So, everyone is on edge, and snappish.
But disagreeing about the means does not mean disagreeing about the end. We all want to defeat Trump, and everything else is a means to that.
Eyeroller
@clay: Dollar Store Gong Show at the convention (I have no idea who came up with that term). As-yet-to-be-named candidates will compete for delegates. I suppose Harris will be permitted to be one of them. That seems to be the most popular model among the dump-Biden punditry. Some say go with Harris, but we know what the problems with Harris are. And we don’t know how the electorate will respond once the attacks start against her. (Some commenters have heard some really ugly attacks even from left-leaning friends.)
geg6
@clay:
No, they have not. And get mighty put out if you point that out. And then immediately go post about how Biden definitely has Parkinson’s.
Old School
@Chet Murthy:
What is the factual matter in dispute?
Chris
@Chet Murthy:
The admonitions not to accuse front-pagers of bad faith are something I’d take a lot more seriously if I hadn’t been reading the blog for over a decade. “Bad faith” is a perfectly accurate description of every months-long bender Loomis has gone on defined by increasingly unhinged and cartoonish caricatures of commenters saying things he disagrees with. And he may be the most frequent offender, but since he’s also the most prolific front-pager and their de facto leader, that doesn’t really help much.
It’s not that there aren’t toxic commenters at LGM. There are toxic commenters everywhere. But it’s the only blog I’ve been on where that sort of toxicity is spouted by and reinforced by front-pagers, as well.
JoyceH
Can I barf now? Taking my dog to the groomer, I saw that raised-fist-bloody-face picture on a Trump yard sign.
geg6
@Chet Murthy:
Again, I call bullshit. There are some posts about poli-sci (which BJ and GOS both also do), but it is not the stated mission of the blog to discuss only political science. It’s not even the majority of what they post about.
oldster
@geg6:
“Lastly, some of the FPers (hi Erik!) there are so dismissive and rude to their commenters when they disagree with them that I don’t understand why anyone would comment there.”
I read there pretty often, have never gotten a Disqus account so cannot comment.
Loomis is an ass. Campos tends to hyperventilate, but is good within his field. Lemieux is smart and better grounded. Rofer, of course, is so good she even writes on this site.
Some of the commentariat there are very witty, and some threads turn into laugh-out-loud exchanges of clever banter. I really enjoy reading along sometimes.
But, yeah, I have not been tempted to sign up to comment.
Chet Murthy
@oldster: I feel I must reiterate that even as the LG&M FPers are people of good faith, and want TCFG defeated, they are not actiivists in the same way that the FPers and many of the commenters here are. They. Simply. Are. Not. There is a *robust* discussion in the academic community about the appropriateness of using their research and knowledge to be activists for the issues they research. Climate change comes to mind. For some, this is a no-brainer: why would somebody NOT be an activist for fighting climate change, when they know the horrors that are coming? But for others, they feel that this is a step an academic must not take. It’s a live discussion, and there are people of good faith on both sides.[1]
TL;DR Not everybody is an activist. Not every forum is one for activists.
[1] I would be a liar if I said that all people on both sides are people of good faith. There is a definite measure of bad-faith assholes pushing scientists to stay out of activism. And those same people have no qualms about economists pushing Capitalism Uber Alles, so it ain’t that they eschew all activism. Ah, well.
kindness
Did Senator Menendez take the gold bars before or after services were rendered? The Supreme Court did just rule bribery is legal if the payment comes after the deed is done.
MisterForkbeard
@Chet Murthy: The problem is that regarding some of the ‘factual matters’, the FPers haven’t been listening to counter arguments, have bought into Republican framing, etc.
They’re also taking a sort of malicious glee how they talk about it, which is genuinely odd. Like they’re affecting to be sad about it, but aren’t. They then push relentlessly and negatively and call out countervailing opinion and facts as out of line.
I haven’t really seen them do this otherwise. There are ways to make the arugments they’ve made without pissing off your community. They haven’t done those, and their response to the predictably negative response has made it worse.
Old Man Shadow
Who has the best chance of defeating Donald Trump.
It is, however, a matter that was already decided this year when all fifty state parties voted and chose President Biden.
Chet Murthy
@Old School: Whether Biden is a better candidate than Harris, or (as the FPers put it) Johnny Unbeatable.
Also, to characterize their misgivings as only about
FootParkinson’s is unfair: they point out lots of other issues. One that I remember is that in many swing states the Dem Senate candidates are running ahead of (in some cases far ahead of) the Presidential ticket.Look: I’m NOT trying to say they’re RIGHT. But they might be.
geg6
@Chet Murthy:
Nobody is asking them to be activists. People are asking them to quit front-paging GOP lies, to quit speculating about health matters they know nothing about and to accept that they might sometimes be wrong or ignorant of the subject or shut up about their hatred of condiments and their love of obscure bands no but they care about.
Chet Murthy
@geg6: No, LG&M’s stated mission isn’t only to discuss political science. But it’s mission is indeed only to discuss. They are not a forum for discussing how to take action. And never have been. It’s a talking-shop.
It is what it is.
rikyrah
He has no shame. He will not resign.
Ohio Mom
@MisterForkbeard: I am having a moment of self-validation for giving up on and avoiding LGM.
I did take a quick peek and there is no way I am reading over 1,000 comments.
Eyeroller
@geg6: This is rather petty, but I started getting really turned off when Gloomis went on and on about how people who like ketchup and vodka had no taste or were bad people or something. I do not like a lot of foods that most people like, but my feelings aren’t hurt that other people like them.
Poe Larity
As the BJ Civil War of 2008 proved, only the strong survive.
Chet Murthy
@Eyeroller: Oh c’mon! I love his food&drink rants! Remember when he’d go dig up old recipes for things like pineapple/shrimp/mayo Jell-O ? Gold! Gold!
Omnes Omnibus
Look, people, a place that has threaded comments is simply on the road to hell anyway.
rikyrah
cary lawyerguy (@scarylawyerguy) posted at 8:52 AM on Tue, Jul 16, 2024:
So after demanding Biden do more interviews, he gives an extended one to Lester Holt and its crickets from the media. Do I have that right? The whole “he needs to drop out” storyline has now run its course, correct?
(https://x.com/scarylawyerguy/status/1813209999063109746?t=xHXNfHwUdg08dieLZ6Pggw&s=03)
MisterForkbeard
@Ohio Mom: It’s unfortunate, because some of the discussion is really good. And likewise, some of the points they brought up are really interesting, if negative.
But it is actively weird how they’re pushing the exact framing that Republicans are pushing. You can discuss this stuff without being jerks or actively buying into whatever the current media pile-on is. And right now they’re angry when their own commenters talk about the FP behavior.
Another commenter here talked about how the different FPers approach this differently. That’s true. Except for today’s “you gotta start being nicer to us or you need to self-deport” article, it’s mostly been bearable except for Campos going off on people in the comments.
Chet Murthy
@Ohio Mom: They’re gonna get to 2k comments on that post pretty damn soon. Ain’t no way I’m gonna wade thru that, and I’ve routinely read every comment on 1k-comment threads.
Omnes Omnibus
@Poe Larity: Also, the DRONEZZZ War of the early 2010s. I remember being accused (along with MomSense and some others) of posting from a CIA boiler room. Good times
Geminid
@oldster: I think Cheryl Rofer crossposts her LGM work on her website Nuclear Diner. She was posting there long before she posted at LGM. My guess is that she is posting there despite their culture, and that she doesn’t absorb any of it either.
geg6
@Chet Murthy:
As a someone with a degree in political science, I don’t recall many classes that didn’t have passionate discussions about varying actions and the possible efficacy of those actions. Political theory classes generally didn’t, but those were only a few of the classes required for my degree. And as I also minored in history, the study of which also included analyzing actions taken in the past to determine if actions taken in the present or the future were likely to succeed or fail, it would seem to me to be a terrible instructor who didn’t talk about possible effects of political theories or history on current issues. That’s not activism (though that might be included if the person is so inclined). That’s teaching.
Chet Murthy
@geg6: right right, I agree with you. And sure, LG&M FPers talk about the wisdom of various actions. But they don’t (at least, not on the blog) -act-. That’s my point. By contrast, B-J and (esp) dKos are about -action- first and foremost. Action guided by discussion and insight and thought. But without action, dKos loses its raison d’etre, eh?
That’s the difference I’m trying to get at: LG&M is fundamentally not about action.
Old School
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ha! There was a comment on the discussed LGM post complaining about B-J’s unthreaded comments.
Chris
@MisterForkbeard:
Agreed, and again, this has pretty much been Loomis 101. Other front-pagers haven’t been nearly as bad, until now, but that one at least has been that way the entire time.
Something’s been rotten on that blog for a very long time. The difference is that this time they’ve finally bitten off more than they might be able to chew.
Old School
@Chet Murthy:
That doesn’t seem to be a factual matter than can be settled.
RaflW
@Joseph Nobles: The Weaponization of Government Committee is investigating how-tos, not prevention. Like that famous To Serve Man cookbook.
MisterForkbeard
@Chet Murthy: I thought Balloon-Juice was about pets first and foremost. The lack of Baud’s pants is also an important focus for this top 10,000 blog.
I feel lied to.
Central Planning
@geg6:
They talk about hatred of condiments? LGM might become my new favorite site.
Bill Arnold
Good. Corrupt trash gets convicted. Good. He’s now convicted felon Bob Menendez.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: This is a good time to again recommend Thinking in Time. I found the book invaluable.
Hob
@Betty Cracker: I read LGM often. Farley and the other front-pagers are being disingenuous. Or maybe that’s not the right word – I don’t think they are writing in bad faith, but they are at the very least unconsciously using dishonest rhetoric: the kind where one takes the most extreme/unfair part of the opposition and acts like it’s the main part, while also describing one’s own actions in the most general and innocuous way.
There are commenters who are saying shit like “you’re deliberately trying to get Trump elected” – that’s stupid, and I don’t think the blog admins should be required to put up with it. But most of the angry commenters aren’t doing that; they’re making fun of the FPers’ arguments, saying that they’re poorly reasoned and unhelpful. Farley doesn’t seem to make any such distinction… and he’s also mischaracterizing the front-pagers’ own writing, saying that they’re being attacked just for simply raising questions about X/Y/Z when they’re clearly going much further than that.
Of course, lots of commenters pull the same kind of shit. There are plenty of comments that aren’t responding to what the poster wrote but to a deliberately stupid caricature of some other past opinion of theirs (sometimes with cutesy sarcastic framing like “But I’ve been reliably informed that…”). But the LGM front-pagers have really encouraged that kind of thing, IMO – it’s been the culture of that blog for a long time. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want the front-pagers to be less juvenile than the worst commenters.
Captain C
@clay: Loomis is declared President and everyone who disagrees with his music tastes gets thrown in jail.
tam1MI
It is seriously reminding me of FireDogLake after their “Kill the Bill” bullshit went over like a lead balloon with their commenters
M31
I actually enjoy LGM (and comment there) though have gotten irritated at the Eyoreism from time to time, but the recent Biden-must-go thing has been quite strange, and the Parkinson’s stuff just weird.
If Biden doesn’t take himself willingly out of the race, then forcing him out would be a disaster. I don’t think this can really be contested.
I also truly believe that he’s a decent enough man that if he were approached by a group he trusted — say Schumer, Pelosi, Jeffries, Jill, Obama, Harris — and they said to him that it was time to go, for real, that Joe would listen and bow out. But they didn’t, and dumb stuff in the fucking Hill about Pelosi talking ‘furtively’ to Jeffries means they’re about to ditch Biden doesn’t count. The people around him would know if the first-half-of-the-debate Joe was the current best Joe, and we’ve seen in the dozens and dozens of events/interviews/press conferences that he’s done since that the bad stumbling Joe was the outlier not the norm.
So I figure the issue of “should Biden go” has been decided and that harping on it more is only hurting the cause.
Not to mention the practicalities of changing the ticket at this late date. Anyone but Harris will have huge logistical problems (and potentially hurt the support of the base of the party), and, we already have Harris! She’s on the ballot! Anyone who thinks that “ok once it’s Harris they can’t call Joe old any more so there won’t be any attacks” is delusional. They have all kinds of attacks lined up and ready to go.
So I’m done fretting about who is the candidate, though not done fretting about the possibility that Trump and his fascist racist misogynist anti-LGBT anti-trans anti reproductive freedom low quality pieces of rancid shit could win, so my energies go to working WITH JOE to defeat those repellent moral monsters via donating and postcards and GOTV etc.
fuck the fucking fuckers
Trollhattan
@Old Man Shadow: Hooplehead.
Hob
@Old School: Honestly I’ve always hated the comment system here, I do prefer threaded comments, but I’ve accepted that it’ll never change. My main issue is that unthreaded comments, combined with very frequent posts, make it pretty hard to participate in any real back & forth unless you’re very obsessively reading and refreshing all the time. So I rarely try to have a conversation, because most of the time either I’m coming along after most people have moved to the next post, or if they write a reply I won’t remember to check back and read through all 500 comments to find it. Whatever.
cain
@oldster: Interestingly, Rofer left this blog because she thought this commentariat was toxic.
Mike E
@Chet Murthy: Markos doesn’t tease (or advocate outright) replacing the ticket. So yeah, his campaigning is legit.
oldster
@Geminid:
Yes, Cheryl Rofer seems to do a conscious job of not engaging.
By contrast, Loomis seems bent on trolling his own commentariat. He’s kind of sad that way. I like a lot of his posts, e.g. the grave series and the labor history series. But he has too many chips on his shoulders, and so little self-awareness that I’d sometimes swear he was an elected Republican office-holder.
TBone
@cain: I’m not sure what you’re referring to – the tweet I posted is a 2016 headline quoting Dotard stating that violence at his rallies is evidence of patriotism.
I know what I’d call that Vance thing, but I haven’t seen it and don’t know where you saw it (I’m not on any social media at all).
Geminid
@Betty Cracker: My belief is that people here are taking this stuff way to hard. It’s a general panic reaction, not just by one group. This matter won’t be resolved on this forum anyway, so why get mean about it?
Old Man Shadow
@Trollhattan: Zounderkite.
Old School
@Hob:
Mistermix with the comedic timing!
TBone
@Hob: do you have a “find in page” search tool? It is invaluable – will find any combo of text anywhere on a page. I frequently use it to stay abreast here.
soapdish
I think a lot of us are still reeling from *how bad* Biden looked at that first debate. Kevin Drum put it pretty well here:
https://jabberwocking.com/theres-no-embarrassment-in-getting-something-wrong/
And TPM mentioned how it’s been hit after hit ever since:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/morning-memo/the-whirlwind-of-events-defies-what-we-know-about-the-slow-grind-of-politics
For those of us who pay attention, it’s exceedingly stress inducing. I completely understand and relate to MomSense’s reaction to the debates. And none (ok, very few) of us are having these reactions in bad faith. I’m glad to see her poking her head back in here.
I’m Ride Or Die for either Biden or Harris. If I had to lean one way or another I’d go with Harris (not my original opinion after the debates). Either way, some of this weird, uncontrollable shit is going to actually have to go in our favor between now and November.
Old School
@cain:
I thought she left this blog because LGM pays a little.
Jay
I go to LGM only for the Dead People,
Just like I go to Only Fans for the in depth articles.
Geminid
@Old School: That complaint does not surprise me. If I read LGM day in and day out I’d probably have the attention span of a gerbil too!
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah: Not around here, it hasn’t.
soapdish
@Chet Murthy: I go to LGM because I like a lot of their commentary and will scroll through a few comments but JFC bless your heart for reading all 1k posts anywhere. Eff that.
Ohio Mom
@MisterForkbeard: LGM has always had a snide tone — FPers and many commentators alike. Sometimes it can be entertaining, particularly when it’s a silly subject like condiments.
But the lack of any smidgen of kindness was disheartening, it got to me, and that is why I quit them. That is not to say I didn’t learn from many posts, they are a smart and well-read bunch. I do stop by every now and again but I don’t find any reason to stay.
efgoldman (of blessed memory) was as much a regular there as here. When he died, we had a wake; what I saw in a comment thread there sometime later was someone noting, “Haven’t seen efgoldman recently,” and someone else replying, “He died.” And the conversation of one-upping each other continued on without a break.
Maybe that is unfair, maybe they gave ef’s death more notice in a thread I skipped.
Omnes Omnibus
@geg6: Oddly enough, my government major was very heavy on the theory courses. And some now rather obsolete courses on the Soviets.
Hob
@TBone: Thanks, but my problem is not about lack of familiarity with web browsers. I don’t mean it is impossible to find a reply, but it is very annoying to try to follow a conversation that way, especially if there are more than two people involved. That’s just how unthreaded comments are – especially, like I said, when posts and comments are as frequent as they are here. I’ve been reading this blog for 20 years; there really isn’t “one weird trick” that’s going to make it easier for me to participate.
Mike E
@Old School: it was Angry Black Lady I thought
Bupalos
@Chet Murthy: Appreciate this and especially the ode to uncertainty. I’ve tried to put that in every post. It’s kind of the one thing we know.
I’m fine with people turning it up to 11 on loomis though that dude actively invites it. For most of the rest over there it’s people personalizing their own (reasonable) fears and I think badly overestimating the influence of random comments on the internet.
We aren’t able to discuss the issue here either I don’t think. Most “replace” folks went dark on it pretty quickly when the opinion of the majority and the vehemence behind that opinion was clear. Not sure if folks have noticed that the overall mix of names and frequency has changed.
For my part, I don’t need to discuss it further, I mostly post to work out my own thoughts on things and see if others have stuff I’ve not considered. It’s not worth the damage it seems to be doing to the community.
Geminid
@cain: I do not remember that. I do remember Rofer saying she was getting in a rut and that was one reason she was moving on. I got the impression she may have thought commenters here also had, but this was not explicit. I thought there would have been a certain truth to it though.
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: OT: Susan Crawford, candidate for WI Supreme Court, is Lawrence, Class of 87.
The Pale Scot
10 years in Trenton or Rahway state prison, hopes he dies alone
Chet Murthy
Cheryl Rofer responds to the LG&M/Biden mess: https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2024/07/ridin-with-biden
Bupalos
@Ohio Mom: yeah, this and that are the two communities I visit. I think of this one as having more heart. I often think of it as “lawyers, guns, and nihilism.”
Bill Arnold
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yep.
Manyakitty
@Chet Murthy: a reasonable take.
oldster
@Chet Murthy:
It’s a good post from Cheryl Rofer.
Significantly, it’s a very BJ post, rather than an LGM post: it’s a call to action.
I do not share her handicapping of the respective odds for Biden and Harris. But most of the action-items are the same for each candidate: mobilize, persuade, donate, vote. She is wise to focus on the work to be done.
bluefoot
@Chet Murthy: I’ve been a long time reader and previous commenter at LGM. I haven’t commented since it moved to Disqus though (because of my work firewall). I read most of the posts and comments.You’re spot on in your analysis that the blog is essentially academic and not at all about action. Many years ago, once when Erik Loomis was talking about the lack of action about some topic, a commenter asked what he was doing about it, did he have suggestions. Erik’s reply was essentially, “I am talking about it and that’s enough.” That was a crystalizing moment for me – the blog is about discussion, not action. Though discussion about action in the comments seems to be discouraged.
I have other things to say about the recents posts and tone over there but this isn’t really the place for it. But I will say that we’re ALL experiencing anxiety right now, and we all need to give ourselves and each other some space to take a breath.
I’ve said before, no matter what happens, I will do my best to contribute to the outcomes I believe are best. And if Trump gets re-elected, I’m going to stand in the way of fascism as best I can.
stinger
@Chet Murthy:
If you don’t think you can win, you’ve already lost.
I forget who said that.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: I dropped out of one of those! I thought, I really don’t need to know the members of the Politburo.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: Great!
geg6
@Chet Murthy:
What the hell does that have to do with commenters asking FPers to explain what the effects of their calls for action to be? Because that’s what Campos (and Loomis and Lemieux and now Farley) has been doing. And to what good is playing doctor on the blog doing? It’s insane and it’s made me lose any and all respect for all of them. They are not arguing in good faith and, despite them not saying you all must also agree that Joe Biden must go (though I’d argue that’s exactly what they are saying), they are intimating that we should take action to make their fantasies come true. So disingenuous, if you take seriously what you claim their intentions are.
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: Povolny was my advisor. I took every one of his classes that I could.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
YES! Exactly! This idea that academics never use their powers for activism is utter bullshit.
Ohio Mom
@cain: My memory is that Cheryl got tired of the conversation on her posts deviating from the subject she presented. You know, the usual: after a couple of dozen comments on the post, someone announces they just adopted a new cat, or they’ve just been told they need root canal, or whatever.
Reading these many comments, I am reminded of some of the more tiresome college profs I had back in the day. Can you imagine sitting in a Loomis class?
bluefoot
@geg6: I wasn’t going to comment but the whole Parkinson’s thing over there has been weird. Some of my recent career has been research using digital technologies (including video) for early diagnosis and patient monitoring of neurodegenerative disease, including Parkinson’s. It’s not that easy. And cognitive problems in Parkinson’s don’t appear until much later in disease course. Doubling down on Biden having Parkinson’s rather than recognizing that the job and its demands are hard on anybody, much less someone in their 80s, is just weird to me.
geg6
@cain:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Out of the frying pan and into the fryer, I guess.
stinger
@Chet Murthy:
Why is that a problem? Maybe the Senate candidates have coattails. Does the President have to do EVERYTHING?
Jay
Cheryl left because she felt “stale” and wanted to try something new,
Imandy Gandy left because of the racism and misogyny,
We had a “Guest” Front Pager who’s nym I have forgotten, who wrote about Trans, who quickly left because of TERFs.
Anyone who has ever worked retail can tell you that you can be doing your best to provide excellent customer service, and all it takes is one asshole to ruin your whole day.
It’s easy to be an asshole on the Internets.
Princess
@Chet Murthy: At least one of them over at lgm has her head on straight. I was sorry when she left us.
Ohio Mom
@cain: Could it be the flag of the state of Ohio? https://www.ohiosos.gov/globalassets/publications/agency/flag.pdf
Ohio Mom
@bluefoot:
Mike E
@Chet Murthy: wtf with citing Jonathan Martin’s unsourced reporting of Pelosi torpedoing Biden… Rofer isn’t doing Joe any favors here.
geg6
@Omnes Omnibus:
Without trying to dig up my transcript, I think I probably took 12 credits in political theory. The rest were required credits in foreign policy, the Constitution, political rhetoric, etc. Then I specialized in US/Soviet relations and the American political process (often case studies in different levels of government), so lots of classes in those. I tried to tie my minor in history as much as possible to my major and took a bunch of classes in American history (pre-colonial and 20th C., which were never covered in high school), Eastern European and Russian history and a few classes on Mexican and Latin American history. I never guessed I should have mixed in some Middle Eastern history in there.
kindness
Cheryl did a masterful job of being Mom over at LGM. Bless her, really. I read their pieces. I really enjoy the sarcasm & one upmanship their commenting system allows (not pushing for threaded comments!). I learn things. Even before the debates though, too many of their principle posters started shitting their pants. Every bad poll, every MSM meme. I mean, Come On Now! 1st, the MSM is our opponent as much as Trump is, 2nd, polls are an indicator but not a good predictor 4 months out. That plus a lot of these polls just plain suck. Now though, the sages of LGM are getting push back from the commoners, and they are letting it get to them. Simmer down LGM, simmer down.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: He was sweet.
UncleEbeneezer
@bluefoot: The thing is “talking about it” can be used for good or bad results. I get academics writing instead of doing activism. That’s entirely fair. Not everyone can run to a protest or do fundraisers or whatever. But if writing/talking about it is important (under the assumption that it helps people understand the situation in order to act: vote, donate, volunteer etc.) then the person on the virtual podium has a responsibility that their words/thoughts can also do tremendous damage. If they thought their words would never convince anyone to see things their way, why are they writing them? We are all part of the internet/social-media landscape. We all participate in determining what stuff trends and what doesn’t. There is no magical “I’m just a humble academic on a small-scale blog” free pass for helping spread Doomerism. Public words are public. And Dis/Misinformation Psyops rely on getting people to spread dumb/divisive shit. See: Hillary’s emails, for just one obvious example. The only difference between the Replace-Biden FPers at LGM and Jake Tapper, Ezra Klein, Jon Favreau, NYTimes etc., is the amount of damage their platform allows them to do. It’s a matter of scale not kind. Same goes for posters/commenters here.
jonas
Surely if the framers of the Constitution intended to make the President immune to any criminal liability during his term, then Senators certainly cannot have been excluded from such “penumbras and emanations”, amirite? Maybe Menendez has a shot here, just sayin’.
Betty Cracker
@UncleEbeneezer: I don’t read LGM enough to have an opinion on their activities. But since you implicate “Replace Biden” “posters/commenters” here in causing small-scale damage, I’ll share why I think that is bullshit.
First, you’re assuming that it’s self-evident that sticking with Biden is the only way to beat Trump, and therefore any deviation from that line is harmful. That’s your opinion! Maybe you’re right, but it’s not a factual argument.
Second, there are no “Replace Biden” front pagers here. I was falsely accused of it by a would-be group-think enforcer yesterday and recently admonished by you to “jump on the Biden train” or some such nonsense.
But I’ve said from the beginning — in comments only — I don’t know which move (replace or retain) would be more likely to bring about my sole priority: Trump’s defeat. And obviously I will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is, so I’m already on the goddamn train.
This is an “activist” blog in that there are political fundraisers, postcard writing events, etc., but it is also a place for political discussions and hashing out disagreements. I’d argue that without the latter, there wouldn’t be an audience for the former.
That’s one reason the attempts to shut down discussion and relentless bullying of long-time commenters who expresses dissent from the prevailing view stick in my craw. We should be able to discuss this or any other hot political topic in good faith and without distorting each other’s positions or telling each other to shut up.