Jaime Harrison announced that Democratic nomination vote will be complete by August 5 due to this:
In June, Ohio passed a bill to move its deadline from Aug. 7 to Sept. 1. But because that law technically does not take effect until Sept. 1, the DNC said they are keeping their timeline of a pre-convention virtual roll call in place due to concern of litigation. Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose suggested earlier this month that Sept. 1 deadline to certify a candidate would stand.
In other nomination news, Adam Schiff has formally called for Biden to drop out, after a poll showing 2/3 of Democrats want Biden to quit was released.
57% of American adults say that Trump should withdraw from the race and allow the GOP to name a replacement. Meanwhile, 73% of Republicans say that Trump should remain in the race.
In stark contrast, only 35% of Democrats say that Biden should remain in the race.
Moreover, nearly half of Democrats are not very or not at all confident that Biden has the mental capability to serve as president, up from a third in a February poll. 27% of Democrats are extremely or very confident in his ability to be an effective president, down from 40% in the February poll.
I was listening to the Citycast Denver podcast and Rep Diana DeGette (CO-1), who has Pat Schroeder’s old seat in Congress, said that Biden is in until he’s out, and pivoted to talking about how Biden can beat Trump. Obviously that garnered no headlines.
artem1s
American adults – voters? non-voters? any random human who has a cell phone?Push poll? almost certainly,I hate these fuckers with heat of a thousand suns. Schiff is a grade A asshole.
Since he can’t bring himself to support Biden, I call on him to bow out of the CA Senate Race.
TBone
Susie Madrak sez:
https://x.com/CourthouseNews/status/1813325951268540890
The Courthouse News tweet she’s responding to:
https://www.courthousenews.com/despite-trump-assassination-attempt-gun-advocates-at-rnc-push-for-protection-of-gunowners/
Princess
I have a lot of friends who would answer that poll by saying they’d like Biden to drop out and be replaced. I don’t know a single one of them who won’t vote for Biden or who have even considered it. I also don’t think that any of them have weighed the complexities of replacing Biden in this environment. All that is to say, I believe the poll is accurate but I’m not certain that it is telling us what some people think it is.
I have thoughts about Schiff and Pelosi and California and Newsom or even maybe Harris. I don’t like these thoughts so I’m not going to go further with them.
pacem appellant
Adam Schiff, my defacto Senator-elect from CA, can get fucking bent. He just lost a vote.
Xantar
At least Schiff has said he will support the nominee, even if it is Biden. After the nomination is over, we had better see Schiff out there working his ass off and making the case.
Suzanne
I actually got a text message today from “Garrett on behalf of the Republican National Committee” encouraging me to learn more about “Agenda 47”.
Garrett is the name of my high school friend who died of Covid. I think “Garrett on behalf of the Republican National Committee” can go get fucked.
Elizabelle
My guess is Adam Schiff went with the major donors over the primary voters. Well, well, well.
Welcome to the circle of hell that Kirsten Gillibrand occupies.
Disappointed in Schiff.
UncleEbeneezer
Schiff is well aware of how Russian, Anti-Dem rat-fucking operations work and should be better than this. He doesn’t need to do this to win his Senate race. This is so incredibly stupid, disappointing and disgusting.
Kay
I can’t decide if I agree with Harrison. They fixed the ballot issue so now Harrison is arguing that it won’t stay fixed, but people will perceive this as Biden is weak and the DNC is jamming him thru, especially because Biden himself said anyone who wants to challenge him could do it at the convention.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
Or. he himself believe it’s true and feels he has to say it publicly because Joe Biden isn’t listening to anyone outside his family and a tiny circle of his employees, who are not going to tell the boss the unflattering truth. Or that.
This is desperation.
UncleEbeneezer
Archon
@Kay: You can’t possibly believe Biden being challenged at the convention and somehow losing his delegates to a new ticket that nobody outside the convention halls voted for is good for the Democratic party, can you?
Harrison Wesley
@TBone: Yes, as we all know, the Tree of Liberty is watered with the urine of MAGAts.
cain
So looks like JD is doing the lords work:
https://www.rawstory.com/jd-vance-wife-usha/?u=b0996b56d819606882af7b1ff010a2ecfa9aa6ccffdc12d6ac564ffca3768ffd
Racists attacks against his wife.
The brits are pissed at him for calling the UK an islamist country.
I see Schiff continues to create divisions in the country.
That poll is an opinion on Democrats, and sure yeah, he’s too old maybe. But it doesn’t mean they won’t vote Dems. They are going to vote Dems.
TBone
Well if anyone knows all about the Antichrist, and can speak with authority on that subject, it’s good old boy J.D.
From a 2021 speech:
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In Private Speech, J.D. Vance Said the “Devil Is Real” and Praised Alex Jones as a Truth-Teller
Vance gave the speech to the secretive Teneo Network. The GOP vice presidential nominee has been a member of the Leonard Leo-backed group, which seeks to cultivate conservative influence in business and culture.
by Andy Kroll, ProPublica, and Nick Surgey, DocumentedJuly 16, 1:45 p.m. EDT
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Sen. J.D. Vance, whom Donald Trump named as his vice presidential running mate Monday, told a group of influential young conservatives in a closed-door speech in 2021 that they should stand up for “nonconventional people” who speak truth, such as Infowars founder Alex Jones.
“If you listen to Rachel Maddow every night, the basic worldview that you have is that MAGA grandmas who have family dinners on Sunday and bake apple pies for their family are about to start a violent insurrection against this country,” Vance said. “But if you listen to Alex Jones every day, you would believe that a transnational financial elite controls things in our country, that they hate our society, and oh, by the way, a lot of them are probably sex perverts too.”
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Vance went on, “Sorry, ladies and gentlemen, that’s actually a hell of a lot more true than Rachel Maddow’s view of society.”
He said that every person in attendance for his speech believed “something that’s a little crazy.” In his case, he said, “I believe the devil is real and that he works terrible things in our society. That’s a crazy conspiracy theory to a lot of very well-educated people in this country right now.”
** Leonard Leo is the sponsor of Teneo, which should tell us all everything we need to know about the continued ratfucking in the works.
Fair Economist
I would never trust Frank LaRose on anything. We’d be fools to wait past the earlier Aug 7th deadline. Plus even if he were trustworthy and honest for the first time in his life, it’s a guarantee some RW nutjob group will sue. So we *also* have to trust the Ohio Supreme Court – and, well, we can see what they did with gerrymandering.
Also, since Biden is clearly not stepping down, the sooner this is done the better.
Paul in KY
@artem1s: I knew there was a reason I was a Katie Porter supporter…
WaterGirl
Sorry I stepped on you mistermix! I was so angry, I didn’t even look before I put it up.
RaflW
JFC.
Adam Schiff can eat a bag of salted prunes. After we take away his Charmin.
[Edit: Gaaaaah]
CaseyL
Sigh. I just went onto Schiff’s Congressional contact page and called him a panicky, weak-kneed treacherous pimple.
…which was a lot more moderate than my initial reaction.
Old Man Shadow
We’re really trying to lose here, aren’t we?
Kay
@Archon:
No. I think they’re trying to buy time to get him to drop out, which is what they have been doing for weeks.
You cannot have missed how lukewarm a lot of these Biden assurances have been from Democratic electeds. Choosing to decide that the Democratic Party has lost its mind rather than the much more obvious reason – that Biden cannot do this campaign- is zebras/horses. It’s horses.
Of course the governors aren’t calling on him ot step down. They’re fine. The people objecting are the people whose careers depend on Biden not cratering.
Campaigning gets much more rigorous than this. It’s just starting and he’s barely holding on. It isn’t going to get better with 8 additional events every day.
Archon
@Kay: And assuming Biden doesn’t drop out, what then?
Chris Johnson
Fuck Schiff, assuming that’s even real. I simply cannot assume that mainstream media blitzing everyone with a report that “Adam Schiff thus and so!”, even means that Adam Schiff thus and so.
Unless the guy outs himself as a panic monkey actually calling for this ridiculous thing to happen, I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume someone’s taken quotes out of context, or simply pruned back a statement to the most contentious position.
And if he does out himself as doing that, fuck him. He’s shit at politics. How dare he distract from the shitshow the Republicans are making of themselves. If he wants Kamala, elect Biden/Harris and sit around waiting for the reaper, you fucker. If he wants anybody else, fuck him ten times over, the ignorant prick.
Elizabelle
@Kay: it is desperation. But by whom?
wenchacha
@WaterGirl: me too
RaflW
@Kay: “The people objecting are the people whose careers depend on Biden not cratering.”
In California? Is there really a credible Republican running for the US Senate seat? I’m not in tune with the left coast, but… really?
ssdd
@Old Man Shadow: imagine if they put just half this effort into supporting Biden.
$8 blue check mistermix
@WaterGirl:
No worries – as you know, I don’t care…
Old Man Shadow
@RaflW: No, not really.
Steve Garvey has name recognition if you’re 45 or over, but we’re not going to elect him.
Juju
@pacem appellant: Hold you nose and vote for him. Do you really want the baseball player to be your senator? If you can call Schiff and tell him to shut up I’d appreciate it, and you can add my name, as an out of stater with yours and tell him I said shut up and support your president, too. Tell him I’m disappointed to find out he’s not one of the good guys after all.
Chris Johnson
@RaflW: No, obviously not. I don’t know what’s up with Kay, wouldn’t be the only leftist I’ve seen who’s huffed too much narrative, but no, Schiff is not that.
Old Man Shadow
@ssdd: It feels like many of our party’s people in elected positions have already surrendered.
It’s really fucking demoralizing.
Elizabelle
I am guessing this is the tech Bros. They don’t want to pay taxes. They know it’s gonna take a while for a new president to come up to speed, and they think they can delay delay delay.
I also think this is Russia, aiding GOP and plutocrat ratfucking.
Princess
@Archon: Yeah, I mean, he’s not even saying drop out for Harris. He’s saying whoever. All I see is uncertainty in that path.
Juju
@Suzanne: ooh. I got the same thing from Megan. I reported as junk and deleted.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
By Democrats who are telling you you are in a burning building. They’re telling you to jump out a second story window. I think we should. We might get hurt but we’ll be alive.
It makes me sad. He’s been a great President. The people around him aren’t doing him any favors ignoring what is an obvious decline since 2020. I get RBG vibes. Good Lord. Another one who doesn’t know when to quit.
I went to a Marcy Kaptur speech at the state convention. She’s 78 years old. She then did a local radio interview with good questions – she answered with ease. She’s sharp as a fucking tack. It isn’t “ageism” – it’s me observing and comparing. He had a stutter in 2020 too. This is different than that.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Kay:
Eh, I guess I’m open to the possibility that the MAGA SoS in Ohio will fuck us on the ballot, or at a minimum be obstructionist about it. You’d know better.
Also, thinking about this shitshow going on until the convention makes me want to chug a Texas Mickey daily, so my liver is involved.
Belafon
All fine and dandy until Democrats choose to wait until after the old deadline and someone sues to block it since the law hasn’t taken effect yet.
pacem appellant
@RaflW: Adam Schiff will be the next Senator from CA. But until he VERY QUICKLY backpedals and lines up behind the Democratic nominee for President, he’s going to become that Senator with one fewer vote. (probably more) Living too close to George Clooney is rotting his brain. Porter was such a better candidate…
Archon
@Princess: I don’t say this lightly but if the donors and elected officials decide to bypass voters and put up a new ticket at the convention and that new ticket loses, the Democratic coalition will implode.
Elizabelle
@Kay: But what if it isn’t? What if you’ve bought into a false narrative? You’re in Ohio, for god’s sake.
Barry
@Kay: The way I understand it is that the Democratic Party would no legal presidential candidate as of Aug 8. This would change on Sep 1, but that’s a three week legal limbo.
Rusty
@Princess: This, the poll is telling them less than they think. I’ve had too many Facebook comment threads where I point out it’s near impossible to change candidates (access to funding, hiring and setting up a complete campaign in really weeks to be ready to compete, access to advertising at this late date, Republican AGs keeping them off the ballot). They are convinced it’s easy because some pundit said it is, and they want what they want. It’s a pill based on unreality.
wenchacha
@Kay: I don’t have cable, so I don’t catch all the times Biden has been in public over the past three weeks. The times I have seen clips, he appears to be doing fine. He’s not like Mitch or Chuck Grassley.
I get that people worry about the optics, but really: has Joe been so terrible except for the half-hour that made everyone go nuts?
Really not trying to be blinded by loyalty, but I haven’t felt that he wasn’t up to the job.
I have no clue what is going on behind the scenes, or whether “trusted insiders” are legit sources.
Elizabelle
Kay. I think the world of you, but I think Big Money has decided to go all in on taking down Biden. Not because he is old, but because he is effective.
I think they’re fine on breaking the Democratic Party apart and taking their chances on Trump. Apparently we have too many fucking goddamn morons in the world who never understood the lessons we should’ve taken away from World War II. It won’t blow back on them. Right.
SoupCatcher
@Kay: Either Ohio laws go into effect 90 days after signing or not. If the law signed in early June is not in effect when the current state deadline in August passes then Ohio Republicans can print official election material without Biden and Harris. This feels like an easy call for the DNC to eliminate an opportunity for Republican ratfuckery. It also feels like an easy opportunity for those trying to get rid of Biden and Harris to keep attacking.
Old Man Shadow
@Archon: At that point, it’ll be moot anyway. Minority one-party rule will be cemented into our new form of government and elections will be rigged. (Every accusation is a confession.)
But no, I can’t see particularly Black voters sticking with a party that throws their votes out the window because white guys with checkbooks are nervous.
RaflW
Its all so f**ing stupid.
If Dem leaders are going to make a backroom deal, MAKE IT IN THE BACK ROOM. Why in the god damned hell is Schiff doing it this way, other than he lack the power to do it in the cloak room, so he’ll create more public recriminations, backbiting, and misery.
God.
DAMN.
The stupid just burns.
JMG
I would have no problem with Harris replacing Biden, if Biden himself comes to that conclusion. I also assume Schiff is operating in good faith. He sincerely believes Biden can’t win. It would sure help his case, and those of the others who’ve asked Biden to drop out, if he provided some empirical evidence in support of his opinion. Majorities polled want Biden to drop out? OK, but are they not going to vote for him if he doesn’t? A smaller but still considerable majority want Trump to drop out too.
Old School
@Kay:
Are you calling for Biden to resign as president? Or do you think his senility is tolerable today, but not for six months from now?
PatD
@Elizabelle: if the primaries were held today would Biden win? At the least he would face real challengers. All that to say that opinion has shifted across the Dem electorate since the primaries so perhaps that is a faulty metric.
Kay
Jump! The waters fine. We’re excited about Harris and ready to fight for her. This will energize our base and juice enthusiasm. It’ll be crazy – a mad dash – but this slogging toward defeat is just going to kill Democrats up and down the ballot.
Juju
@pacem appellant: You can also tell him, that as an out of stater I’m sorry I sent him $15, it was a waste of my money. I should have sent it to Katie Porter.
Kay
@wenchacha:
I would just ask you to go back and look at any Biden 2020 campaign appearance and compare.
He’s always had a stutter, so that’s not it. This is a big decline and it shows at every single appearance.
PatD
@Elizabelle:
@Elizabelle: I don’t think Biden accomplished anything that a number of other Democrats couldn’t do as well. Harris, Whitmer, Pritzker, Shapiro etc could all perform just as well, if not better.
Old Man Shadow
Because we sure have proven that we’re ready to unite and fight our real enemies over the last three weeks, haven’t we?
I have seen zero evidence that we’ll stand up to the media when they roll out their old slanders about her being unlikeable, shrill, etc.
And, of course, the new narrative that will follow Biden’s resignation that “Cutthroat Kamala stabbed Biden in the back to advance her career.”
Princess
@Archon: I feel much the same way. How are we going to make the case to vote Dem and save democracy if we toss our own democratic primary process aside? RFKjr for one would have grounds to sue. I guess we can hope scotus doesn’t take the case, like we can hope Ohio Republicans don’t double cross us. We’re not jumping from a second story building. No one has any idea how far off the ground we are. More likely we’ll break our necks.
Elizabelle
@PatD: we will have to agree to disagree there
RaflW
@Elizabelle: This.
Techbros are all in to scuttle any sort of regulated capitalism and see a SCOTUS that will give them the libertarian taxless paradise they seek. And “AI” (bullshit though it is) will burn up the planet with it’s insatiable need for server space.
William Gibson was starkly correct about the future. And it fucking sucks.
Kay
@Old School:
I’m not diagnosing “senility”. I’m saying that there is clear age-related decline in Joe Biden between 2020 and 2024 and his closest people should have told him that, not bcause they give a shit about Democrats but because he cannot do a months long, rigorous campaign.
Archon
@JMG: If you think this is a conspiracy to get a completely new ticket, the next step is to push polls showing not only Biden losing to Trump but Harris doing even worse. That followed by articles and very serious CNN pundits telling us, “the polls show the Democrats only chance is an open convention.”
That’s if you believe this is a conspiracy by the donor class of course…
RaflW
I do agree that if the primaries were held now, Biden would face a real challenger and not that twerp Philips.
But time is not reversible.
Fair Economist
@Kay: Harris is 1-3 points behind Biden in the polling. (Anybody else would be worse, due to the chaos.) And that’s before the smear machine kicks in.
There’s no chance without Biden.
Soprano2
@Kay: Or the Ohio Republicans could have just straightforwardly fixed the problem so there would be no doubt that the Democratic candidate would be on the ballot. They chose not to do that, and instead to get cute with it.
indycat32
Were those 2/3 of democrats who want Biden to quit asked who they will vote for if he stays in?
Ridnik Chrome
@Kay:
Biden dropping out would absolutely guarantee a Trump win. It would divide and demoralize the party, to say nothing of the logistical problems involved in changing the candidate less than four months before the election. It is a colossally, stupendously bad idea. Biden may be old, but at this stage of the game he is our only hope.
Kay
@Old Man Shadow:
It’s just that this line of thought ends in “it doesn’t matter who the candidate is” if all candidate attacks land the same way with no difference between the candidates then the candidate doesn’t matter.
I think it matters who the candidate is. I think Kamala’s crisp prosecution of Donald Trump along with what I think is a really amazing sense of warmth that she manages to convey will be great. She’s one of those people who make you think you’re the only person in the room. That’s rare and valuable in a candidate.
moonbat
Adam Schiff can kiss my honky ass. And so can anyone else peddling the notion that we can easily replace Biden with anyone else including his running mate and sail to victory in November. We can’t and it’s not happening. I cannot believe the people who railed for YEARS about the Russians interfering in our elections to get Hillary Clinton canned and Trump elected are falling for this shit AGAIN.
Save all the speculation for your fantasy football league and give us all a fucking break.
prostratedragon
Not that it matters, but just for the record, I would NOT like to see Joe Biden drop out of this race. It is beyond contemptible to push this after the entire primary season has ended with no plausible person even clearing their throat, and while the results of Biden’s incumbency are still coming in so strongly. Nor will I try to cross the bridge of what I’d do if he were forced out before coming to it.
gvg
@pacem appellant: He is running for Senate and his opponent is a republican. I am afraid you should try and suck it up. But do tell him how you feel and there is always the next time.
prostratedragon
@Xantar: Well that’s damned white of him!
Archon
@Old Man Shadow: I’m inclined to agree, but the Democratic party imploding into recriminations will make the transition to American fascism easier for our enemies.
I’m starting to believe the Democratic Party doesn’t have the discipline and courage to defeat what they (we) are up against.
SoupCatcher
We have a primary process and a nominating process. The primary process is over.
We have one side saying, there are problems with the nominating process that Republicans can exploit. Let’s fix it in a way that is consistent with the result of the primary process. This is the side of the voters.
And we have the other side saying, let’s throw out the results of the primary process completely. This is the side of the donors.
We know who controls the Republicans. We are finding out who controls our side.
$8 blue check mistermix
@RaflW:
This.
Also, Adam Schiff is doing a really bad job of pushing his agenda (apparently Harris over Biden) — he went on the Sunday show a couple of weeks ago and hinted around. Now he comes out and says it. He’s a bit of a leader of the pack (biggest name to come out and say this in public), but his pack is a whole 20 Congressional Dems who have gone public on this out of what, ~250 (too lazy to count). At that rate, they’ll be at 10% by the time Biden is nominated.
In one way, Jaime Harrison called the question. Are all the whisperers going to come out in public and tell Biden to step down? If they are, they have just a couple of days to push hard. But, at this point, we know very little about the hidden opposition to Biden. Is it a bunch of Dems or is it just a couple who get anonymously quoted everywhere. Is 20 the tip of the iceberg or is it everyone? The Pod Save America guys says it’s almost all of Democratic DC. Well, it’s now time for the whisperers to shit or get off the pot.
BTW, Schiff is acting the way a lot of Democratic electeds in DC act — they want to be on both sides of a controversial issue. It seems like he’s putting down a marker for an “I told you so” if Biden loses. He’s not leading an effective campaign to get rid of Biden.
Princess
@Kay: Definitely true. Also true about Trump, who hardly does any personal appearances. Also nothing we just learned a month ago. I think we’d frankly be in trouble if they’d picked de Santis but fortunately they went with lazy whiny Trump.
Princess
@$8 blue check mistermix: he very much does NOT say Harris in the Guardian piece.
pacem appellant
I cannot emphasize enough how much this “Biden should drop out” is being driven by forces that want to end American Democracy. It saddens me to see Schiff and folks on this site feeding the narrative. Evil people know that the Dems will eat their own first, so when a bite was taken, a feeding frenzy ensued.
For those in the front and back: Biden is the Democratic candidate for President. Ride with Biden or at least get out of the way. Everything is a distraction to fracture the Dem coalition. The fascists have to fracture it. Otherwise, there’s no electoral path for Trump if the Dems show even a fraction of their unity in 2020 and 2022.
To be absolutely 100% clear: If the Dems do something as stupid as replace the most effective Democratic President since FDR, we will lose in a landslide not seen since Mondale. That is exactly what the fascists want. They are working hard (and sometimes not so hard) to convince us, the Democrats, that it’s in our best interest to replace Biden. If absolutely is not. Any baggage associated with Biden will just be transferred to the replacement candidate, plus whatever baggage they carry. It would be a bloodbath.
After I post this, I’m getting offline. When I return to BJ tomorrow, I hope it’s all about how we’re GOTV in NV, GA, WI, and AZ. Peace out friends.
Archon
@indycat32: Probably not because that would complicate the narrative.
Kay
@Princess:
Trump is still a horrible candidate. Who doesn’t get a bump after an assassination attempt?
I don’t think it’s fair to D voters to say they should have known. The vast majority of them aren’t political junkies, don’t listen to his WH statements or events and assumed he would be at 2020 level. I think that was a fair assumption, although incorrect.
stinger
@wenchacha:
As I mentioned here at the time, I only caught the last half-hour of the “debate”, and I thought Joe owned it. I was astonished later at the reaction to what was, apparently, only the first 20 minutes or so. Since then, I’ve seen him in more than a half dozen interviews, speeches, and press conferences, and he’s JUST FINE. And that’s fewer than a third of the public appearances he’s made in that time, because he’s campaigning HARD.
Joe Biden has won 10 statewide and national elections — and Never. Lost. Any.
As far as polls, in his first Senate campaign, per Wikipedia, “a few months before the election, Biden trailed [his opponent] by almost thirty percentage points”. He ultimately won. And that was back when polls meant something.
All due credit and thanks to folks who have worked on local and state campaigns, but I think the guy knows what he’s doing, both as President and as campaigner.
prostratedragon
@UncleEbeneezer: I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: these people waited for this shit until after their own nominations were locked up, knowing — or assuming — that strategic Dem voters were then stuck with them. This much intensity and persistance in the face of a wealth of countervailing factors are not consistent with a sudden revelation 3 weeks ago.
Chris Johnson
@Kay: Woof. How about fucking not?
Burning building my ass. The Republicans are creepy beyond all reason, broke, turning to fucking Charlie Kirk to field a national GOTV organisation. I am not making that up. Look it up.
I’mma need you to stop talking absolute crap for a minute. Trump is doing about as well as the Tories, or Le Pen. Again, burning building, my ass.
Just because we have to work and put in a LOT of effort to take out the trash, because there is so much of it, does not imply that taking out the trash is hard or that we run a terrible risk of the trash being avenged upon us. It’s TRASH. The Republicans are flailing, desperate TRASH. If you refuse to see that or the Augean-stables scope of all the work we’ve got to do, I don’t even know what to tell you.
Soprano2
@Archon: Boy this is true.
BR
@Kay:
The problem is that very few of the people pushing for Biden to drop want Harris to take over. They want their donor friendly unicorn candidate.
I would be fine with Harris. I was never a Biden die hard. He’s done well as president. But Harris would be fine if she is a continuation of Biden’s policies and team.
But many of the naysayers are implying or outright saying that they will invent new reasons to be against Harris.
Old Man Shadow
@Archon: As I said earlier, I feel like many of our leaders have surrendered already.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Princess:
You’re right – I was just inferring from his home state.
Kay
@BR:
Democrats won’t do that. It would mean they lose.
Old Man Shadow
@Kay: Yes. All of our candidates will be treated poorly by the media. You cannot appease them, so don’t try. We voted for Joe. We stick with Joe. Making him the sacrificial lamb to the NYT and WaPo will not end as well as you think it will.
pacem appellant
One last thing (I really need to get offline). I’m putting my money where my mouth is. I’m donating immediately to the Biden-Harris re-election campaign. We’re gonna win in November despite the fascists’ attempts to break us. Let’s do this.
BarcaChicago
@Archon: Agreed. If we dump our successful incumbent at this point we will likely lose. I’m assuming that enough people that are not under the sway of donors etc will rule the day and prevent such a tremendous lack of judgement, but personally if this were to happen, then I wouldn’t no longer consider myself a Democrat because I would not consider the Democratic Party to be a viable political party. But I highly doubt this will happen and I am focused, along with everyone I know, on doing everything I can to win in November and ignore the panic and bad faith bullshit. President Biden has been extremely active and effective in all of his activities during the last weeks: interviews, rallies, policy work, reassuring the United States during this chaotic time, etc.
Old Man Shadow
@Kay: As would having a president resign four months before an election, but they seem to be pushing that.
RaflW
@Kay: Or Schiff went to a hungry and craven press because within Democratic Party circles, Schiff and his handful have the weaker hand. So they leak, and grumble, and worry out loud and do significant damage.
During the RNC! They’re pulling focus this week, it’s so strategically idiotic I am apo-fucking-plectic.
Gretchen
@Kay: Hillary Clinton had a 69% approval rating as SOS just before she entered the 2015 primary. Then the attacks started and all the people who didn’t want a woman backtracked and it dropped 30 POINTS. Why wouldn’t this happen to Harris? It’s one thing to be VP, another to be the first black woman to be the most powerful person in the world. Even if her approval drops 5 points she’d be behind Trump and that’s the ballgame.
BellaPea
@Kay: Respectfully, if you think that white men in this country will vote for a woman of color, I’ve got some swamp land in Florida to sell you. Again, respectfully, you are dead wrong.
Princess
@Kay: We’ve had the NYT beating the Biden is senile drum for a year. We had a primary candidate who made that case his entire platform, got masses of media attention for it, and didn’t ever raise a respectable anti-Biden protest vote. It’s wrong to say Bidrn’a age was not on people’s radar. Heck, it was an issue in the 2020 primary.
Eyeroller
I am increasingly convinced it is, if not exactly a donor conspiracy, donor driven. I am not sure what they want because they and their probable surrogates in the media starting pushing the narrative immediately after the disasterdebate. I know some of the donors involved are actually Republicans. Others are leftier-than-thous in the entertainment and related industries, which is probably why we’re not getting any coherent “plan” out of them. Biden gone is the only shared goal.
We know that Adam Schiff’s campaign is $15M in the hole and he’s using the “pass the torch” buzzwords. We know some others who may not be quite as badly off have been “bribed” with donations.
People are picking up on the turmoil and that’s one reason we might be seeing results like the cited poll. Thanks for the own goal, Democrats. Polls can be push polls without necessarily intending to be, and also the media has a narrative that they are sticking to.
I am hoping things settle down once the nomination happens.
Elizabelle
@Archon: I think that’s the plan. Democratic coalition blown apart by money and disinformation.
@pacem appellant: Thank you. You said what I feel.
SoupCatcher
Framing the discussion as fitness to run a vigorous campaign feels like a mistake and an easy way to set up impossible goalposts.
I voted for Biden in the primary because he’s done an amazing job as President, he has brought together an amazing team who are doing solid work, and I feel his judgment and decision making are sound and I would like him to keep leading that team for another four years.
That is separate from his slowing down physically.
Soprano2
THIS. If they really think it’s a five alarm fire, then they need to come out in public and SAY SO. All this whispering to Politico and Axios is counterproductive and hasn’t done shit except roil up Democrats and hurt our morale.
Old School
@Kay:
He’s already done more campaign events than he did in 2020. And he won that election.
moonbat
Think I’m going to head over to Spoutible where the Dems are strategizing how to win with our candidate, not how to lose by taking orders from big donors. Excuse me, I thought we were the DEMOCRATIC Party and the Republicans were the ones held in thrall by big money.
Gretchen
@Old Man Shadow: Resigning would be absolutely insane. Sure, Harris would be incumbent, and MIKE JOHNSON would be next in line. A replacement VP requires a majority vote by both houses of Congress. Would MIKE JOHNSON promptly schedule that vote to bump him down the line and tell his party to help install, say, Josh Shapiro as VP? Supreme Court Justice Merrick Garland would call that unlikely.
Kay
@$8 blue check mistermix:
You’re seeing them come out publicly because they tried to handle it quietly and Biden doubled down with this ridiculous “Dem elites” bullshit. They have no choice.
Pelosi and Schiff are (supposedly) close. You can bet she knew he would do this. Also- where is Obama? Is Obama on the traitor list too now, because he’s certainly not rushing to Biden’s aid.
Elizabelle
And all this shit happening during the Republican convention. They must be orgasming over there.
Gretchen
@Kay: Sure it would mean they’d lose, but forcing out the incumbent 4 months before the election would mean they’d lose and they’re trying to do that.
MomSense
@RaflW:
You forget that one of Schiff’s responsibilities in the House was raising money for swing state candidates. He is very much tied in to the people running in the most contested races.
Look this is a bad situation to be in. None of us who think Biden should step aside imagined that this would be what we would be facing at this stage of the campaign. I feel devastated and angry about the position we are in. I trusted Biden and his team and I feel incredibly let down by them.
One thing that is being missed in the polling is that both Biden and Trump are known. They both have as close to 100% name recognition as anyone could have. It is much tougher to improve unfavorability results when you are at 100% name recognition. I personally don’t see Biden winning over the swing voters and undecideds we need to win the EC. Those voters aren’t as motivated by negative partisanship. I think we are better off with Harris at the top of the ticket because she can take credit for the accomplishments and she has room for improvement as voters see her in action.
Emily B.
Philip Bump argues in the WaPo (gift link) that polling shows that alternate Democratic nominees would not necessarily do better than Biden: “It seems clear that non-Biden candidates would be able to campaign more effectively than Biden and that Democrats and other voters would rather have a different candidate at the top of the ticket. But it isn’t clear that this would meaningfully affect the trajectory of a race that, like 2020, is largely a referendum on Trump.”
Gretchen
@Kay: I’d like to know why they’re removing attention from the successful NATO summit and the shit-show of a Republican convention to emphasize Dem infighting.
UncleEbeneezer
@Chris Johnson: Schiff likes attention. And he doesn’t mind getting it from the Loyal-Dem-But faction of our coalition. He got a lot of breathless praise for bashing Garland/DOJ on their slow movement to indict Trump, while his own Jan 6 Committee contributed to months of that delay by refusing to share reports with DOJ. He also never even acknowledged the reports of resistant US Attorneys purposefully obstructing the investigation from within. Despite the fact that he himself is a former US Attorney. But he never even acknowledged either of those factors in the indictment timeline, nor multiple other ones. He was perfectly okay with pinning all the blame on Garland when Dems (Centrists AND Progressives) were trying to push Garland to resign. He seems quite willing to jump onto panics from our side. Many of the same people who were calling for Garland to resign are now pushing this Replace-Biden nonsense. Schiff, sadly, sometimes listens to them.
Archon
@Old Man Shadow: I don’t think it’s “surrender” per say because the other side is not offering terms or quarter and everyone knows it.
I look at this as a party in the process of breaking ranks and fleeing the battlefield against an avalanche of forces arrayed against us.
To take my analogy to an absurd conclusion I wouldn’t be opposed to Biden and the Dems setting up Russian-style blocking battalions to “punish” anyone trying to leave the field of battle.
Basically it’s forward march or die.
RaflW
@Chris Johnson: THIS.
The RNC is a total joke. But here we are in the worst circular firing squad I’ve seen in over 40 years of my active political involvement.
JD Vance is a piece of shit. He’s easy pickings. But the press will eat up every whisper from Schiff and run like hell. I’m incendiary with anger. There’s zero strategy here. Total undermining of a decent comms strategy from Biden-Harris while the Republicans broadcast their Project 2025 without the label horror show.
And the deeper, stomach-dropping news is that I can see the next Democratic Sine-Manch being birthed in real time with Adam. I won’t trust that man for a nanosecond. And if Trump takes the WH in January, Schiff will be utterly impotent in the Senate.
BR
@Soprano2:
Exactly. Either these insiders need to publicly coalesce around Harris or shut up. There’s no value in any more of this public drip drip drip.
Soprano2
@Eyeroller: I’ll repeat what I said elsewhere. I think what they saw at the debate made them realize that Biden could die in office, which would mean Harris would become the incumbent president and the favorite for the nomination in 2028, AND THEY DO NOT WANT THAT. They want their “beauty pagent” of the various governors and senators who think they want to be the next president, and if we had a President Harris that probably wouldn’t happen. Just my theory FWIW, which is about $0.02.
artem1s
@SoupCatcher: I live in Ohio. DO.NOT.TRUST.LAROSE.
The whole Ohio GOP are scorpions. Do not trust that they will carry any Dem across the river. They will absolutely try to keep Biden off the ballot. And FYI, if Biden can’t get on the ballot – no one else can either (also applies to the other states whose deadlines are imminent or past). There is no possible way to replace Biden at this point in time and have a Democrat on the ballot in all 50 states.
Kay
I know some of you follow high [profile trials on You Tube. There’s a good one gearing up. Two crazy, violent people who met on the Trump campaign trail in 2016 and married 13 days later. One of the crazy violent Trumpsters shot and killed the other. Florida, of course :)
They’re calling it the Black Swan trial because the defendant says she is a ballerina, which is hysterical all by itself.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: It would be malpractice to trust that the September 1 date would work out perfectly. At the very least, you would be buying litigation and doubt. I think that we all agree that those would be bad thing going into the fall, right?
Princess
@$8 blue check mistermix: Schiff is a constitutional law expert. If he were saying, “here’s how we can replace Biden with Harris, and here’s why it will work,” it would be more compelling to me. The fact he’s not makes my spidey senses tingle.
john b
This sounds very much like Hillary supporters talking about Obama in the 2008 primary
Sphouch
I’m shocked, shocked I say to learn that after months of headlines and news articles from virtually every source talking about Biden being old and how that could potentially impact his ability to govern that it’s affected people’s perception of his ability to govern. It’s almost as if that “liberal media” has an anti-democrat or horserace agenda to gather ratings and clicks irrespective of the good of the nation as a whole.
stinger
@Eyeroller:
Not someone I would look to for campaign advice. And I say that as a huge fan of Schiff’s after the Jan 6 committee hearings.
@SoupCatcher:
ALL OF THIS.
Old Man Shadow
@Gretchen: Not to mention it would soak up ALL THE MEDIA ATTENTION FOR MONTHS.
Along with “party leaders backstabbed Biden” attacks to demoralize Democratic voters who voted for Biden to be our front man and drive down turnout.
I really don’t get this “let’s have a primary do-over!” paired with a Pollyannaish mindset of how great it’ll be and how we’ll all hold hands and sing kumbaya afterwards and turnout will be amaze-balls.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: You keep saying that. That doesn’t make it so.
debit
I can’t take any more of this circular fucking fire squad. He’s our nominee. Get behind him.
I’m going to peace out for a while. This place is supposed to be my refuge but comments in threads like this do nothing but demoralize me and make want to give up and die. Well done.
Chris Johnson
@Gretchen: THANK you. This, plus what I said.
I’m sorry, but I’ve had it. Rather than pie the prolific, exhausting trolls. I am straight up pie-ing two apparently beloved and long-trusted nyms in this thread who, I’m told, are not in the least trolls, but nonetheless keep hammering away at the same damn narratives no matter how many times people counter with completely inarguable points.
In the mainstream media, I have seen faces and names I would never have suspected of skullduggery, suddenly drop all masks and begin hammering absurd narratives. I’m not even talking Biden stuff! I’m talking people who are knowingly acting like the RNC and the Trump side of things are perfectly normal and there’s nothing unusual about it.
I’mma throw major news outlets under the bus who acted for years like they were normal, I’m not going to be that surprised if people we know (but perhaps, have never met?) inexplicably seem to have gone insane in very characteristic ways.
Welcome to warfare in 2024. We first met it in 2016, and by 2020 we had learned better.
Elizabelle
@debit: Seeming like a good day to stay off the internet. And. Might be good to apply some of my anger to getting stuff done around the house.
RaflW
CalMatters nonprofit news site says Schiff has $6.5M on hand, so I’m not sure where a $15M in the hole comment comes from. Same article does say in the most recent month the Republican outraised him. Sadly I’m not gonna float a dime to Adam anytime soon. I want loyalty, or at least a competent sense of strategy rather than feeding the press sharks mid-RNC, before I give.
Plenty of downballot races can do more with my money than Schiff. I’m just jaw-drop stunned at his lack of ability to game out anything beyond his own needs.
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
I ignore any references to polls without links to the raw details.
e.g. they often include questions that show serious weaknesses in the Republican political position, that are ignored because they lie outside the narrative being pushed.
80 percent of the focus needs to be on attacking the GOP ticket.
It is not. We’ve lost 3 (?) weeks of news cycles that could have been used to attack the unfitness of convicted felon Trump for the position of POTUS.
Fair Economist
@MomSense: All we need to do to get Biden to positive favorability is make people aware of his amazing accomplishments as president:
Most jobs added in a presidential term ever
First relative increase in working class wages since the 50s.
Longest run below 4% unemployment since the 60s.
First increase in manufacturing jobs since the 70s.
Largest drop in the murder rate in any presidential term.
Largest program to stop climate change of any country ever.
The media is bottling all this up. If anybody else is nominated, they’ll say it’s irrelevant and *never* mention it. But all we need to do with Joe is bring all this up every time somebody complains about him looking bad onstage for half an hour.
Draco7
I don’t know anything more than anyone else, but that won’t stop me either. Internet commenters are given to stating “it’s this” when looking for a cause for the turbulence when it’s multi-factoral, and that tends to overlook that there are multiple players and organizations in the opposition to Biden’s candidacy. Some may be fixated on Russia, but it’s Russia, Israel/AIPAC, China, Iran, techbros, Heritage, FedSoc, and the list goes on and on. They’re all playing harder this cycle – hard enough to unmistakably out investor control of the media, for example. There are obviously ambiguous figures in the “Democratic donors” category, the kind who give to both parties as it suits their interests, so I don’t take those objections at face value at least as a group.
One factor that I don’t see considered is that Biden has been the most effective President for quite a while – and effective in a way that doesn’t suit “the suits”. I can see the threat of him being re-elected and continuing that trajectory to be something that particularly alarms money people and the right wing (yes, plenty of crossover). No other conjectural candidate has the potential to be as effective given his background, experience, and track record. That may have been brought up, but I haven’t seen it.
That said, it’s “follow the money” all the way to get any kind of picture of what’s going on – money donated (both for and against), money withheld, money proffered (reward for opposing), money promised. During Trump’s last term I often asked people “If a significant percentage of Wall Street wanted him out this very minute, could they accomplish that and successfully market the move?”, and the answer was always “Yes”. I’m sure Biden was given a number of ultimatums during this term (as any Democratic president would get; Republicans wouldn’t need them) by that sector regarding policy. When you control the media, that seems like something you could try to do.
Anyway, the “lose Biden” proposition seems incoherent to me; an unbalanced equation: X – Biden = ???
ETA: Just caught #46
Archon
@john b: Black men have been feared and reviled throughout most of American history and we got the vote 50 years before woman. When evaluating “sexism” vs “racism” in our body politic that’s not lost on me.
I definitely think there is an argument that Harris will do better than Biden (although polls are mixed on that) but anyone thinking a black woman is not going to face vicious headwinds trying to get elected to the most important office in the world is literally delusional.
Elizabelle
@Sphouch: I don’t think this is to gather clicks. I think this is to destroy Biden. And reduce the chances of Democrats winning this fall. I think we are long past clicks.
The money knows that Dobbs and Immunity are killers, electorally.
Old Man Shadow
@Fair Economist: Okay, but other than THAT, what have the Romans done for us?
Eyeroller
@RaflW: His FEC filing is the source of the claim. It’s over the entire 2024 cycle.
Chris
@Kay:
If “I didn’t get what I want, therefore my response is not going to be to accept it and close ranks but rather to run screaming out into the public and try to kneecap the ticket” is the accepted standard for Democratic campaigns, then we’re all fucked regardless. Nobody can win with a party like this. Whoever replaces Biden will similarly have Biden loyalists refuse to close ranks around him, spend the next four months screaming to the press that the party is going to have its worst defeat since 1984, repeating every single right-wing narrative about the candidate, maybe even demanding that the party remove the replacement and reinstall Biden by fiat. And at least according to this “they have no choice” logic, they’ll be right to!
Elizabelle
@moonbat: Just be sure to come back. I enjoy your comments.
The Thin Black Duke
As usual, it’s useless to argue with folks who have already made up their minds.
Ever since the infamous twenty minutes in a meaningless debate, Joe Biden has been fine in public but that doesn’t matter because folks have made up their minds.
Although racism and misogyny is the primary reason that Republicans are voting for Trump, it doesn’t matter because some folks have made up their minds that racism and misogyny isn’t a problem in White America anymore and that Kamala Harris being elected POTUS won’t be a problem.
The media blitzkrieg directed at Biden is a political strategy employed by the GOP as long as I can remember, but folks have made up their minds that if we bend the knee this time, it will be different and they won’t talk bad about us.
We’re stuck in Groundhog Day, but it’s a horror movie and the Democrats don’t get a redemption arc because they’re too gutless to do The Right Thing.
Chris
@Sphouch:
Yep.
Once again, this has been a master class in how propaganda is a lot more than just “here’s an ad telling you to vote for this person.” We got three to five years of every media outlet in the nation tirelessly beating the bush of not only “Biden Is Old,” but also “Biden Is Going To Step Down.” Low and behold, the first time Biden hit a real snag, not only was there a ready-made explanation but a ready-made solution. Never mind how incredibly iffy both of them were.
BretH
@Kay:
You see what you want to see I guess. I see an energized, powerful President who is fully engaged in his re-election and a campaign that has not fully kicked in yet.
Chris Johnson
@Draco7: No, it’s perfectly balanced.
X – Biden = the only POSSIBLE way that Trump could even pretend to win, even get close enough to launch an insurrection and have the remotest hope of having it even begin to stick (remember, he can call an insurrection and even have better people on hand to shoot his political enemies, but it has to STICK and be accepted by centrist America or he’s still totally fucked).
So, if all this seems inexplicable, in the face of huge opposition and resistance, understand that to some people out there it’s not a matter of getting their way. It’s existential, and framed as such.
The trouble is, they are being a bit clever and are arguing, tirelessly, inexhaustibly, with every angle they can bring to bear and blatantly ignoring every single opposing argument that’s unanswerable… for the only conditions under which Donald Trump could even come close to ‘winning’, or even cheating his way into something like power.
Dumbness only gets you so far, then it’s either enemy action, or some MTG-brained loon who hangs out ONLY with enemy action and believes them at all costs because it reinforces some will-to-doomerism. And the distinction there is somewhat academic. It’s pointless to even extract concessions to vote for Biden anyway, if the poster’s real name is fucking Ivan. Ivan lives in Vladiovostok, he can promise to vote in spite of continuing his narrative, but he hasn’t GOT a vote for you to beg him to cast!
What-the-fuck-ever.
Cacti
So, are 2/3 of Dem voters now trolls acting in bad faith?
According to the BJ comment section, yes they are
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Go look at 2020 appearances and compare to any of his recent appearances. Any.
It’s obvious. We became gradually accustomed to it because we follow this obsessively and Biden did very few interviews so we saw scripted events but normies were shocked because they DON’T follow it
They were shaken in the same way people are when someone they know Just as an acquaintance and rarely pay attention to declines: “I had no idea he had gotten that bad”
$8 blue check mistermix
@Kay:
I don’t think they’re traitors but if they want to sub Harris for Biden (the only practical plan), they all need to just come out and say it. This drip a day spectacle isn’t getting their aim accomplished. Now they have a deadline and they can follow the courage of their convictions.
LNNVA
@ssdd: This.
Elizabelle
@Cacti: I believe you mean “poll respondents” and not “voters.” Because those are not the same set of people.
UncleEbeneezer
Not even…if they actually believed that, they’d be insisting he step down from POTUS right now! Not just step down as a candidate for re-election. The fact that NONE OF THEM are calling to step down now, is really telling about how full of shit they are when they claim to have serious concerns about his mental capacity. They care as much about his cognition as they did about Hillary’s email protocols…
Chris Johnson
Missed one.
RaflW
@$8 blue check mistermix: Thanks.
Here’s the nub of it: “Schiff is acting the way a lot of Democratic electeds in DC act — they want to be on both sides of a controversial issue. He’s not leading.”
That’s it. That’s all the second sentence needs.
If a politician wants to be on both sides of an issue, they they should 100% f** off. Especially right now.
The lack of courage is what makes me so wildly angry. My partner is sticking his neck out, speaking in venues with 100s of people (and livestreamed/archived on youTube) about the risks of authoritarianism.
We’re a very out and open gay couple. For our own safety, we may well have to leave the US if Trump-Vance run this shitshow in 6 months.
But Adam Schiff wants to both-ways whisper-depose Biden. The lack of courage in that means that he’ll also be a milquetoast p.o.s. in the Senate. I don’t give a roasted yak turd about what he did in the past impeachment.
Water over a cracked and failing dam. He’s showing horrible lack of leadership now, when the chips are down. And as I’ve said already, his comms strategy shows such an utter lack of sense that I’m apoplectic. The RNC is under way, and he’s tanking our chance to showcase what violent, evil bastards they are. Jebus!
Manyakitty
@Fair Economist: and you KNOW Republicans have lawsuits loaded and ready to go as soon as anyone else appears on the ticket. This is absolute fucking bullshit.
john b
You guys keep trotting out this straw man. Most (here and within democratic circles) are saying his weakness is in RUNNING, not governing. He’s clearly been governing just fine.
Manyakitty
@CaseyL: nicer than my comments. That miserable piece of shit. Hope he at least got dinner when he sold his soul.
BretH
@Cacti:
I would expect this kind of willful misrepresentation from the GOP. Not someone here.
Elizabelle
Biden has been an amazingly effective president. His opponents have one tool in their toolbox. His age. And they have played it so hard. It’s almost like we can’t get them to stop masturbating in front of us.
columbusqueen
@Archon: No kidding. A convention fight would be the kiss of death.
UncleEbeneezer
This guy gets it:
Cacti
@Kay: At this point, I’m just waiting for the comment section to start calling him Shifty Schiff.
Manyakitty
@Soprano2: ahahaha Ohio Republicans are completely garbage. All they know is thievery and ratfucking. I absolutely don’t trust them to honor anything right now.
ETtheLibrarian
Am I the only one that thinks that 2 out of 3 figure is bogus?
I mean what was the question asked? Was the follow-up “but will you vote for him even if he doesn’t withdraw” or did they ask about who they will vote for BEFORE they asked about him pulling out? Honestly these poles seem weird. Not that there wouldn’t be people who would want him to pull out but that it seems so overwhelming that he should even though that really doesn’t seem the case.
MomSense
@Fair Economist:
I’m trying. I canvassed last weekend for a local candidate and signed up for phonebanking. At some point we need to take a hard look at why his record is not breaking through. Yeah the media sucks but it has for a long time and we need to deal with it.
topclimber
@SoupCatcher: What the vigor crowd is missing is that Biden LOVES campaigning. (Unless he’s been fooling us all along). To paraphrase another American hero, he can do this all day.
Purely anecdotal (well, backed up by science as well I believe, but no link): Don’t you find that you can do more of what you enjoy with less fatigue than is true of chores?
topclimber
@Kay: No, Obama is remaining as peacemaker and rallying point when this shitshow dies, whatever the outcome.
MomSense
@UncleEbeneezer:
There are so many memes and videos of young people saying basically that we saw the debate and realized that he clearly hasn’t been running the country and everyone just wants us to move on and pretend it didn’t happen. I don’t know what to say at this point but things are not ok and the youngs making these videos are not reading the FTFNYT.
Call me a fucking troll all you want but we have a problem and it isn’t going away. I think we need to face it and deal with it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Yeah, he’s older. You are claiming that he cannot handle the campaigning necessary to win. Insisting on that doesn’t make it true. OTOH, you seem to have made your decision. You want Biden gone and you believe we have a better chance with Harris. A lot of us don’t. No much more to discuss, is there?
jackmac
I’ve been flooded with Adam Schiff fundraising emails but not anymore. I told his campaign to unsubscribe me and the reason is his cowardly and backstabbing behavior calling on Biden to step aside. Schiff should have BIden’s back instead.
columbusqueen
@Kay: i respect you a lot, but this perpetual doomsaying is counterproductive BS. Just stop. Biden is the nominee, & we have to work with that.
Emily B.
@Kay: While Trump is an even sharper, more controlled, more articulate candidate than he was in 2020? No.
Trump’s cognitive deficits are very obvious now. In public speeches, he slurs words and mangles them. Last week at his Florida rally he read the stage directions from the teleprompter out loud, mispronouncing the word “says” in the process. His expressed thoughts are scattered and rambling. He repeats himself frequently.
Look, this is a painful place for us all to be in—assessing and arguing over the capabilities of two candidates who in any normal job would have retired years ago. But we are here. And I guess where I come down is that the more time we spend obsessing about Biden—giving the media a shiny toy to chase in the process—the less opportunity we have to point out Trump’s accelerating decline.
BretH
@MomSense:
And do you know where these memes and videos originated? Because they 100% do not match the opinions of people (including young) around me who are saying “we wish he was younger but he has been pretty OK as President and given the alternative I will absolutely vote for him”.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Adam Schiff can go immediately, corporeally to hell.
UncleEbeneezer
Wise move. In the words of the late, beloved commenter EfGoldman…”Fuck ’em”
Cacti
@UncleEbeneezer: So how is that magnificent ceasefire going? You never answered the other day?
Cacti
Update to previous post.
It took the commenters at this liberal blog about 15 minutes to adopt Trump rhetoric to describe Adam Schiff.
Definitely not getting culty around here.
Fair Economist
One of the big reasons the donors trying to stop IRS reform want to replace Biden is that the anti-Biden narrative of Biden being incompetent can be easily refuted by having Biden do interviews, policy actions, and campaign events. But anybody who replaced him would be faced with a flood of “XXX backstabbed Biden in dirty secret campaign” – and *THAT* can’t be refuted, no matter how false it is. Then the Republican House will subpeona every meeting and every call the candidate was in for the past 3 months to “look for the backstab”, etc. We’ve seen this playbook before with “Benghazigate” and they are eager to run it.
RaflW
Once more into the breach, and then I log off:
golikehellmachine over at Bsky makes a very valid point, IMO: We have zero indication that Harris wants to top the ticket. If she does, she and her team are air tight.
I say this not because I want anyone else in the #1 slot, but because the only viable (longshot) alternate to Biden-Harris is Harris-someone. We do not know if she’d accept that. So it’s all rank speculation
Cacti
@Fair Economist: Yes, he really knocked it out of the park at that NATO presser where he called Zelensky “President Putin” and Harris “Vice President Trump”. 😒
Sphouch
@Elizabelle: To me, the clicks is less about immediacy and more about the advertising revenue they anticipate seeing under a second trump term. Slow and steady may win the race, but people stop and gather information about train wrecks.
Casey Jones sells papers. Michael Sawyer does not.
Mai Naem mobile
I haven’t read through the comments. Adam Schiff can go fuck himself. I am so done with these entitled POS coward dems. Not that he’ll need it but Adam Schiff will never get a dollar in campaign donations from me.
wenchacha
@stinger: That’s been my impression, too. joe has been affable, serious, able to deliver information, etc.
I’ll admit to not catching every appearance, as I said. I watched my parents as they went into old age. Clearly, it isn’t the same experience for everyone. And I see my own friends, the ones who have ten or so years on me, well into their 70s. I can’t claim to know how quick Joe is to process info.
It grinds me a whole bunch that Schiff is going there when the “Biden old” headlines had been knocked off by Butler and the RNC. FFS, don’t give them more red meat on a platter.
Kay
Bernie won’t say whether Biden is capable of serving another term (per New Yorker interview) but is backing him
Just nuts
Shalimar
I thought California made a strong choice out of three excellent candidates for Senate nominee. I wonder now how that vote would turn out if it were tomorrow. If I were still living there, I would never vote for Schiff again after this. Forcing Biden out creates chaos that significantly increases the chances Dems lose imo.
Kay
@Fair Economist:
But he can’t do interviews or unscripted campaign events. His interviews are bad – he loses his train of thought over and over. He didn’t do that in 2020
Hes struggling in that NAACP speech with a teleprompter . He’s increased his volume or they’re miking him better – that’s the only improvement over the debate. he’s louder.
jonas
@RaflW: Former Dodger/professional philanderer Steve Garvey is the Republican candidate against Schiff.
MazeDancer
Adam Schiff didn’t have to say a damn thing. His lock on the Senate seat was complete.
White guy arrogance in action.
Black people, and many women of all races, and even plenty non-arrogant white boys join together, in their best Daveed Diggs voice, to sing a rousing chorus of “Never gonna be President…”
Elizabelle
@MazeDancer: I wonder if Schiff and his staff are drafting his FTF Vichy NYTimes op ed this very moment.
Elizabelle
Personally, I think kicking Biden off the ticket will doom Sherrod Brown.
But we manage to hold California. WTG, Schiff. //
topclimber
@Cacti: Thanks for chiming up in defense of respectful speech. You can leave now.
Manyakitty
@Chris Johnson: I am so tired. Still going to fight for Biden and Harris, but JFC.
Manyakitty
@The Thin Black Duke: it’s horrendous and truly inexplicable. I had to log off work for the day when I heard about Schiff-literally could not breathe with rage. Fuck that guy, fuck the other cowards and whores, and fuck the people who want to capitulate and betray our country.
I’m going to fight even harder for Biden and Harris.
rb
@Old School:
It wasn’t me you were asking, I do think he should resign, for a multitude of reasons. First, because it would be good to have a more articulate and energetic leader during the nightmare summer and fall that is coming. Second, because the campaign itself is just too much, and that means so is the job. Third, because to me it is a far more legitimate way to ‘pass the torch’ to Harris directly then just subbing her in as part of the same campaign. The latter point should not be critical, but I believe it is. Passing over Harris at an open convention would be doom. The future of the country is a stake.
Freemark
@Cacti:
Sounds good, think I’ll use it.
Freemark
@Kay: He has done both and done them pretty well just this week. Where is this ridiculous bullshit coming from?
rb
@Old Man Shadow:
I couldn’t agree more. There has been zero evidence of this. But it will be on us to enforce it.
The fact is that Kamala is more able to do the job than Joe is at this point. Hell, his own team was floating the idea that he would only be in for one term as a way of selling him to the electorate during the last campaign.
To me, this is a totally separate issue from the fact that ‘major dem leaders in the house’ are going to the NYT in a full panic. The lack of strategy is infuriating, and their embarrassing behavior is not why I feel how I feel.
The basic fact is that I don’t think Joe can get us over the goal line. It’s not the debate, it’s the lack of a robust response to it. Less obsessed friends look at him speaking and they’re like “well…. it’s not SO bad.” That is not going to get it done, and the stakes are as high as they can possibly get.
anitamargarita
@PatD: who are the real challengers today?
anitamargarita
@Kay: Hillary Clinton also had high approval numbers until she ran for president. Do you think Harris will be immune to the fuckton of racist/misogynist attacks that will swamp her if she becomes the nominee at this point?
anitamargarita
@PatD: sure, they could (possibly) perform as well as Biden. Could they get elected? None of them even tried during the primary.
@PatD:
Ruckus
@RaflW:
I seriously doubt that there is one.
I was born in downtown Los Angeles, CA and have lived the vast majority of my life here in CA. Other than 2 yrs during my USN tour and 10 yrs I lived and worked in OH, it is all CA for me. And I can tell you that while a lot of humans here are democrats there is still a not insignificant number of republicans. I’ve assisted in local and national politics for decades, since before I could vote and while that effort has tapered off as I’ve gotten a lot older, there are many younger folks that still do.
All of us have points of view, no matter which side we are on. Some of those views are going to be rather/entirely self serving – it’s humanity.
soapdish
I’m just here to give support to Kay and MomSense. They’re putting themselves out there in good faith.
We’re all going to ride or die with Biden but his debate performance *really was* problematic. But staying in the race is his decision and his decision alone to make.
But if he decides to bow out, I don’t think he needs to resign. Biden can take credit for everything he’s done so far (and it’s a lot) and say he’ll accomplish more between now and January. But as it turns out, he can’t be the president he wants to be and run for president at the same time any longer, and that we should support Harris instead. I’m more than happy to have her be the candidate.
Again, we’re all ride or die with Biden if that’s what he chooses.
The people hoping for magical unicorn candidates? Ugh. The thing is, I don’t see a lot of that here (or anywhere else I visit regularly, for that matter); it’s either Biden or Harris.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Biden’s campaign response has been as robust as possible. Get in front every available camera and be seen being knowledgeable and on the side of the American people.
Every media outlet, great and small, decide what they are going to focus on. If they continue to ignore Biden’s accomplishments and the majority of his public appearances, there is nothing he can do alone.
We can push back on the media and electeds. Make calls, stop giving clicks. That requires those of us being corralled toward what, under any other circumstances, should be considered a catastrophically bad idea to eliminate Biden to show some steel and push back on the B.S. Not just for Biden but for Clinton before him and Obama and Kerry and Gore and every other D nominee going back however long because this always happens.
UncleEbeneezer
@RaflW: But like Michelle Obama, can’t we just force her to do it against her will? /sarcasm
anitamargarita
@pacem appellant: yes, all this.
rb
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
I agree! I don’t dispute that they have responded as robustly as possible.
I think what is possible is constrained.
You don’t have to take my word for it. Joe himself says it, daily: “I don’t walk as well as I used to.”
If he remains the candidate I will continue to work my ass off to make sure it’s enough. And I acknowledge that this can be finessed to a point. When Reagan said he wouldn’t hold Mondale’s ‘youth and inexperience’ against him, it was extremely smart and disarming.
But I’m not sure ‘I can’t walk as well as I used to’ jokes are going to get us past the basic doubt that people have that he can do the job of being president AND do the job of being elected president at the same time. I think by the end of this summer – hell, by the end of the month – we are going to be in desperate need of someone who can not only walk every bit as well as they used to but can convincingly run through a wall.
Also, I think temperatures are high because it is rightly perceived that a lot of folks will take pleasure in Biden stepping aside. Not the case here. I think relinquishing the helm to Harris is simply the best of a series of pretty lousy options, the only ‘switcheroo’ idea with an ounce of legitimacy. I regard even the switch to Harris as extreme, a ‘break glass in case of emergency’ option.
I also think people are heated b/c of the embarrassing spectacle the prestige press has made of itself over the past month and more. On that I could not possibly agree more. I am zero percent concerned about what the NYT thinks about this. Their conduct has been beyond appalling.
I simply don’t think it’s unreasonable to see the current situation as an emergency. I honestly hope that I am wrong and can laugh at how foolish I was, six months from now.
rb
@BR:
Those people are wrong. It is Biden, or it is Harris. There is no other legitimate choice. You can’t just pretend the primary didn’t happen.
Gretchen
@Freemark: one thing to keep in mind is that the Trump tax cuts expire in 2025 unless they’re renewed, and Biden has increased IRS enforcement dramatically and collected billions from millionaire tax cheats. That’s why the big money is coming out so hard against him.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@rb: He has been the best President of my lifetime, bar none. His work product has exceeded my expectations at every turn. I don’t honestly care how he presents on TV.
To be a little more brutally honest; every time I see this discussion comes up I react about the same way as when I see Fox News discussing trans people or immigrants, I start breathing fire at the sheer idiocy in service of injustice.
You are fully suggesting undermining elections that were held all over the country because you now don’t like how they turned out. You had your chance to vote for Dean Phillips. The Biden is too old conversation has been had.
Miss Bianca
@PatD: Oh, yeah? Like who? *None* of the hopefuls whom pundits have breathlessly touted have said anything but, “nah, mang, I’m good where I’m at.”
Christ on a crumpet, this is getting so fucking tiresome.
Ruckus
@soapdish:
I voted for Harris in the primary she ran in. I did not expect that a woman, especially a black woman would win but she is a GOOD person, who respects life and our country. And she is so much a better human than shitforbrains. Hell just being a human rates her millions of miles above shitforbrains, who is some galactic joke of whatever the hell that is supposed to be.
Miss Bianca
@Kay: You sure seem awfully confident about predicting the future. Got any stock tips?
Bill Arnold
@Cacti:
No, but he is seriously arrogant. Not as bad as convicted felon Donald J. Trump, to be clear.
tam1MI
It’s telling that they are now squawking because the Dems are moving forward with an early primary vote. If they represented such vast swathes of the Democratic electorate as they keep trying to gaslight us into believing they do, they’d be fine with it. They’d achieve their objective early and have plenty of time to unveil Johnny Unbeatable at the convention to rapturous applause.
They don’t have the votes. They never did.
anitamargarita
@Gretchen: 👍
rb
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Well this is thrice wrong.
First because Biden won said elections with the full understanding that Harris is his second in command and takes over if necessary, and I’m not suggesting anything other than we proceed under that understanding.
Second, because I wanted that result. He was my choice, she his backup.
Third, because I am not suggesting a re-do but rather a legitimate (albeit extreme) handoff, again in accordance with how the rules work and how we understand them.
Other than that, I guess thank you right back?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@rb: Given that Harris did not challenge Biden and shows no current desire to do so, forcibly replacing him with her absolutely violates our voting process and the will of the person you are championing.
rb
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
We agree. You will note I have not advocated this.
hotshoe
slowing down physically — or mentally! as far as I’m concerned, Handsome Old Joe does not need to be the sharpest tack on the board, he simply needs to be our candidate who has already been voted for by the Dem base.
The same morning where treacherous Schiff comes out and says “no Biden” the most recent projection says Biden 54% likely to win the Electoral College, Trump only 46%
What the fuck are the power brokers trying to do to us? Steal our votes!
I’m not conspiracy minded. I don’t think Schiff is actually bought or compromised by Ruzzia or whatever. But he’s listening more to the money boys from CA and not to the nationwide voters who are chanting 4 MORE YEARS and JOEVEMBER.
Ruckus
@rb:
You get old you don’t walk as good or as fast as you did decades ago. But being president does not mean one has to pitch home runs or set world records for the high jump. It is a mental job and his mental abilities seem to be normal. Sure his age is up there but I know someone who is 17 yrs older than him, that is 98 yrs young, who lives in the complex I live in and she is still mobile and not senile. And I understand mental health, I used to be a mental health counselor. In other words, I think he will do well and if there are problems, VP Kamala Harris is there, ready and willing to help or take over as necessary. And yes I do understand old, I’m not that far behind Joe Biden and shitforbrains is older than I am, and very publicly showing signs that he’s in the checking out stage of life.
anitamargarita
@hotshoe: maybe the money boys are listening to Russia tho
Geminid
@soapdish: The resignation option is a trap. By far the worst choice.
Ed. I know you are not advocating this course.
As for switching out Biden at the top of the ticket for Harris, I am very sceptical. I think a lot of Harris’s political and presidential skills, but I see plenty of potential downside to her running under these circumstances.
The upside is not so clear-cut, either. The theory behind the move is that Biden is on a path to certain defeat, and switching to Harris gives us our only chance. But what if Biden is on a path to victory, and switching to Harris is the only way we would lose? That seems the more likely possibility to me.
But everyone trying to game this out (myself included) is trying to calculate the incalculable. Adam Schiff sounds very certain but certainty is one of the most easily achieved of all mental states, especially for a galaxy-brain like Adam Schiff.
Quiltingfool
@The Thin Black Duke: I’ve been waiting for you to comment, because I’m going to listen to black people. I was afraid you had decided to decamp for awhile, like several other prolific commenters who I’ve not seen here lately.
It seems the commenters who truly believe the “swap Joe for Kamela” will work out just fine haven’t really asked black voters what they believe. Now, I love me some Kamela (she won my heart during a Senate hearing of Bill Barr – the look she gave him over her glasses when he was attempting to blow sunshine up her skirt? She was having none of it) but this country is still too racist and misogynistic to accept a black woman as the US president. No one likes to admit it, we all want to think America is better than that, but black folks know better. I’m a white woman and I know better; the white women running in 2020 didn’t get traction.
Another thing, I am a little confused at how now, right now, the talk is that Biden has been slipping in the last few years, and Congressional Dems weren’t talking about it. Was he doing a poor job and nobody noticed until the debate?
Well, that’s my uninformed take. Now you can rake me over the coals!
LanceThruster
What do voters want?
Gretchen
@Quiltingfool: if Biden has been slipping the last few years, how did he get so much groundbreaking legislation passed? That’s really why the big money boys want him out. They don’t want the tax cuts to expire next year, they don’t like the IRS increased enforcement on millionaires, they hate the DOJ looking at price fixing by landlords and consumer credit protection. He’s too successful goring their bulls, and the record high Dow isn’t enough.
LanceThruster
@Quiltingfool: – would “the country is just not ready for a woman president” be a valid argument against Hillary’s run? Is making her mixed race lineage (“black” in current usage) a greater “liabilty” than her gender something even worthy of consideration? Is it more concern trolling?
Harris’ support overall in the black community has been questioned at the same time Biden is presented as having substantial support of the black community as demonstrated by his Super Tuesday victory that kept the momentum going. Despite his role in the Crime Bill and its impact on incarceration rates of black men, or his history regarding civil rights (actual vs claimed), and telling people of that community what not voting for him meant to their bona fides as African Americans, didn’t come across as particularly insightful.
It has been reported that Kamala feels more than a little snubbed that she is not higher on the short list discussed, let alone not automatically considered the default choice.
I think the community might feel rightly snubbed, with the potential for longer term damage there. Conversely, I see great potential for enthusiastic support based on the unprecedented nature her being at the top of the ticket represents, in and of itself. I have issues with Harris (she still got my vote for AG and Senator) but would get on board enthusiastically if only to reward the DNC for making a tough but correct call for once. My CA vote rarely provides direct feedback on that level.
I already predicted that the decision for Biden dropping out has been made higher up and it’s only a matter of time. Still seems that way to me. If she wasn’t qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency, why would Biden have chosen her as Veep? And if not, what was his rationale? As cynical as I often am, I’m not sure I want to know the answer to that one.
Darkrose
@john b: I am a Black woman living in America. If you think the people who have been saying “Joe and the Ho must go!” since 2020, or the “Kamala is a cop!” crowd—or the anonymous Washington insiders who have been going to the press with stories about how “dysfunctional and chaotic” Harris’ office is are suddenly going to support her, then you need to give me the name of your weed guy, because I want to be able to pretend that misogynoir doesn’t exist.
LanceThruster
@Gretchen: – aren’t there a substantial number of Trump changes he left in place? I don’t know the answer there, but heard criticisms along those lines.
George
As a former college journalist who still remembers a thing or two about proper reportage, the state of modern American journalism continues to disappoint and sicken me.
The media are nothing less than chaos agents, willing or unwilling. They apparently have no knowledge of foreign affairs, domestic policy, economics, science, or really anything other than an overwhelming desire to bring dysfunction to my country. And, apparently, Biden must withdraw because he had a bad half debate while the other guy farts and sleeps in court, jabbers at his rallies, refuses to talk to the media, has promised to bring fascism to America, and all the other stuff that we’ve seen now for well over eight years.
I never gave much credence to the idea of mass hysteria, but I think that is where we are. Future historians will look back and marvel that a modern nation with a great economy, and which was a place that much of the world aspired to be like, managed to screw itself over.
Slightly_peeved
@RaflW:
I’m guessing Harris is familiar with the concept of the “glass cliff”, And she may have even met Liz Truss after her brief stint as British PM.
I imagine she might be planning on running in 2028 with a couple of years to build momentum and a campaign structure. Not having to wing it in 3 months.
CaseyL
@George:
The past 9 years already provided the answer to the question of how Germany, one of the most well-educated, sophisticated, and cosmopolitan of countries, fell to Nazism.
(Yes, there was the Depression. And, yes, the Socialists did the stupid shit Socialists do. But the sheer eagerness and speed with which the country succumbed used to be a mystery…)
Darkrose
I’m old enough to remember 2020 when some of y’all were all “We need to listen to Black women!” Just last week there was a front-page post about the AKA convention where Black women were unambiguously supporting Biden, and yet folks are losing their goddamn minds.
George
@CaseyL:
Yep, you are spot-on. Years ago, when I visited Auschwitz, I could not understand how, economic depression or not, a country that was a world leader in the arts, sciences, industry, etc., could become what Nazi Germany became.
I don’t wonder that anymore.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@rb: So if you don’t want the Democrats to force the matter and neither Harris nor Biden seem likely to participate willingly, how do you propose this happens?
BarcaChicago
@Freemark: Right?? I watched the Holt interview and he was strong as hell – everyone I know felt inspired, reassured and motivated by that interview. I’m gobsmacked by seeing this type of statement here – it’s false on the face of it. What is going on?
BarcaChicago
@Darkrose: THIS.
George
@Old Man Shadow: The strategy of the GOP/fascists is to criticize Biden and Democrats, of course, because what the GOP stands for is not what most Americans want. What better way to avoid having to defend their plans for America than by fabricating a narrative about Biden, then standing back while many halfwitted liberals/leftists start doing their dirty work for them?These “Dump Biden” folks are the same people who were “PUMAs” in 2008, or who wanted Hillary Clinton to convince them to vote for her in 2016, etc. I’ve read enough comments by certain folks here on BJ to think that either they are truly dumb, or they are trolls.
Ohio Mom
Please, can’t we concentrate on electing Biden and Harris and then wait until after they are sworn in to talk about Biden stepping aside?
I can’t imagine what are our allies must be thinking about this huge display of dirty underwear. They must be downing antacids or stiff drinks or maybe both.
I’m old enough to remember Dukakis getting slammed for one silly photo and one answer to the most asinine debate question; to remember Howard Dean being ruined by a celebratory Yee-haw (or whatever it was); to remember John Kerry getting swift-boated and those stupid purple band-aids; to remember the attempts to derail Obama with one sermon one minister gave and of course the birth certificate flap; and of course, who could forget Hillary’s emails.
I’ve seen this movie before. It’s discouraging to see all this mass hysteria, haven’t we learned better by now?
ETA: I see someone else up thread also described what we are witnessing as mass hysteria.
rb
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
Biden resigns. If he doesn’t, then we’re ridin’ with Biden.
There isn’t going to be a ‘force him out’ or whatever such bullshit the NYT is pushing. It’s just a matter of whether he decides Harris is more up for it. I happen to think she is, but I’m not the one making the decision.
Dems can have an open convention, but those fetishizing it aren’t going to get what they want (a unicorn). It may or may not break the party apart, and either way Biden will win it. Harris would back him, as will the voters, and that will be that.
It could actually work in his favor, but most likely it will doom our chances.
So I’m not in favor of any of that. What I *am* in favor of is Biden seriously reflecting on whether he is the person for this moment. He ran in 2020 to save the country, b/c of Charlottesville. He will always be remembered by history for doing that. That does not mean it has to be his fight this time.
If he decides that it is, so be it. My considered opinion is that he can lay down his shield and that’s OK.
And I don’t mean that in a condescending way. I fully believe he has done enough and it is time for Gen X to take up – again – the mantle of leadership.
rb
@Ruckus:
I agree with you 100% – it is hard for me to say in words how hard I agree :)
I work in aging and the naked ageism of our prestige media in addressing the “issue” of Biden’s speech and mobility is painful and mortifying.
And so: I am not asking anyone to remove him. I am not saying the nebulous beast called “the democrats” should “do something” because we special snowflakes have decided something must be done. There has been a primary. We have a nominee.
And by the same token: that nominee has a second in command. The second becomes the one if the one cannot continue.
It is a campaign. Much of campaign is theater. We can love that or hate that but it is a fact. He is not what he was even one year ago, and that inhibits his ability to do some of the things so critical to campaigning. There is no shame in this. It is simply a fact.
There is a reason we have a VP. It isn’t to dedicate schools and be the face of this or that initiative. Harris has filled those roles with aplomb. But the whole raison d’etre for the office is a situation where the republic is imperiled and the second must ascend to power because the first can no longer continue to his or her greatest capacity.
I think Biden should carefully consider whether we are in that moment. If not, then I hope he proves me wrong and I can eat crow, heartily and with gusto, as long as we both shall live.
Paul in KY
@Kay: The way to do it elegantly (if don) is Pres. Biden resigns and VP Harris becomes POTUS.
Paul in KY
@stinger: You need to watch that 1st 20 minutes. It was bad.
Paul in KY
@Gretchen: IMO, she would be a better candidate running as POTUS. I’m personally for sticking with our Pres. But, if he and others made decision to not continue running, then he needs to resign and make her POTUS.
Paul in KY
@Soprano2: Certainly a plausible theory.
Paul in KY
@Omnes Omnibus: I still think our best shot is with Pres. Biden. Providing he can act better than he did at beginning of debate. I think he can. Beginning to think he & his team were a bit overconfident.
I’m sure they don’t feel that way now.