I’m traveling starting today, so I’ll miss out on the “As the Democrats Turn” drama fest that the press are absolutely loving. So here’s the Biden Campaign’s 2025 website.
I write here as a diversion and also to better understand politics. Predictions are hard so I try to avoid them unless I’m pretty certain of the outcome. I don’t have a prediction, just an observation: all the senior dems who Biden might be inclined to listen to have weighed in. And this morning, Biden’s campaign manager went on Morning Joe and said he’s “absolutely” staying in the race. If he can hold tight for another week, he’s in. If I had to make a prediction yesterday, it would have been that he’s out. Today, I’m thinking he’s in.
Finally, though as usual it wasn’t reported fairly, last night’s Trump performance was pretty awful, and also quite weird, and it reminded us all that he’s not some unbeatable juggernaut.
OId Man Shadow
I think if everyone can get their fucking shit together and get on fucking message, then we might just fucking pull out of the fucking self-inflicted goddamned tail spin we’ve been in for three fucking weeks and we might fucking win this fucking thing.
mali muso
@OId Man Shadow: What you said.
Eyeroller
@OId Man Shadow: Getting on message is asking a lot for the Democratic Party and especially its electeds.
CaseyL
I’m relieved to hear that.
I checked on one of the stories about Obama’s views on the matter. Turns out Obama’s views on the matter were “according to people with knowledge of the calls, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations,” which smells of bullshit to me.
As AOC says, political leaders who think Biden should drop out should put their names on it. Don’t rely on attributions, anonymous sources, or “people with knowledge.”
Put
a ring onyour name on it, dipshits.AOC in her IG video also confirmed what I suspected: the megadonors are driving this.
hrprogressive
Again, for all of any of Biden’s legitimate faults or criticisms (I/P handling, sweeping COVID under the rug during 2022, or whatever else that isn’t related to his Being Old)
Not a single person had competently elucidated how dropping the incumbent president based on “vibes” was anything other than a shitshow designed to get the dems to lose.
I think Adam has it absolutely right; Anything that smells and looks like an adversarial operation may very well be.
If people stop wetting the bed and writing bullshit clickbait and back the man who already beat Trump once, has the trappings of incumbency, an improving economy (yes, even for Regular People, if slowly), and can keep pounding the table on Stopping Project 2025
Then the dems may actually fucking win instead of committing hari-kiri.
I’d love a 45 year old progressive woman of color or something ad the standard-bearer but we don’t have that right now.
Biden or Bust.
Let’s get it done.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
We’re still pretending this is even a question? Sigh…
WereBear
Credit where due. It was something truly amazing, that can’t be unseen, much like the Star Wars Christmas Special.
BlueDWarrior
@Eyeroller: the so-called powers-that-be know full well they don’t have an actual vector of a candidate they can use to take down Biden. If they did they would have actually mounted a challenge last Winter.
They need to try and put the party into a near-fatal stranglehold so they can force Biden to withdraw AND get Harris to stand down so they can shove their proxy in at the last moment before pesky voters can have their say.
I fully believe the Biden strategy right now, especially since Biden is in convalescence, is to hold their ground unless and until an actual opponent to the nomination is presented.
That’s been the most fucked up part of this entire scenario, there are only hypothetical candidates, people who smart people think might run if Biden himself weren’t in the way.
Well if you want to be President, you have to go through people. Either someone or multiple someones nut up and and actually challenge him or they shut up to get the old man to the finish line.
WereBear
@BlueDWarrior: And here I thought the stock market meant everything to them.
Guess, not.
laura
CNN has admitted that this pile on has been good for its ratings. Big Money Boys want their permanent tax cuts with the same vitriol Brett Kavanaugh demanded his fucking promotion. 45 remains crazy as a fucking bedbug and ready to unleash horror upon my Country and many of its inhabitants. Democrat primary voters have voted for Biden/Harris. I’m sticking with that ticket.
BlueDWarrior
@WereBear: indeed. It’s not enough that they are making gobs of money, it has to be everything. They need the power, the fact that Biden is acting like like a New Deal Democrat of yore is honest to God pissing them off, no matter how much profit they are making.
Because it means that the public are going to want more; the more they see active Democrats trying to fix things and Corporations actively trying to screw them, the more they are going to start actively backing the government trying to get recompense. That is something they cannot have.
They need the Government as neutralized as it was in the 80s and 90s, preferably more so.
2liberal
i’ve been on a politics timeout since July first and it isn’t a happy return to hear that the Democrats are seriously considering dropping Biden. Can a replacement even get onto the state level ballots in this timeframe? It would be a nightmare and Kamala won’t carry some states that Biden can.
Ksmiami
@OId Man Shadow: I just donated again to the Biden campaign. That was some weird and disturbing shit last night
Elizabelle
Stay and fight, Joe! Ridin’ with Biden.
sixthdoctor
@OId Man Shadow: I like the cut of your jib!
Just called my senators (Cardin/Van Hollen) and my representative (Mfume) to support Biden/Harris. Raskin can go munch on a bag of chipotle-dusted raccoon anuses.
ssdd
Good on them. From WaPo:
japa21
I have finally come to the conclusion some others have. The people calling for Biden to drop out, or at least a majority of them, aren’t doing it because they think he’s going to lose, they are doing it because they think he is going to win.
SatanicPanic
I don’t understand how we’re supposed to sell Biden as a candidate. Everyone I know intends to vote for him, but I also don’t know anyone who thinks he’s on a path to win. Everyone saw the debate and was shocked. I know he had a cold but I just don’t get how you tell people that someone who gets that weakened by a cold should be president. I don’t even really think that’s a great idea. I’d feel like a fraud. Just being real.
Also hi guys it’s been a long time
different-church-lady
Sir, this is the internet. Please take your hope elsewhere.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic: Well, FIGURE IT THE FUCK OUT, because it’s the horse we’re on, and until we’re on another one poisoning this one doesn’t help us jump on another mid-stream
Elizabelle
@japa21: that is what I have thought from the first. And it is why these morons blindly assume that generic Democrat can just take up the mantle. Seamlessly.
Biden can beat Trump.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic: Also: sorry to pounce in you immediately.
WereBear
@BlueDWarrior: Even though they KNOW (but don’t know) that this will ruin the stock market.
They don’t want everyone else to have money, too. That takes all the fun out of it.
Which is why their psyche is so conflicted.
WereBear
@2liberal: Democrats aren’t seriously dropping Biden. Big money donors are threatening to pull out.
Biden remains in, and so are we :)
SatanicPanic
@different-church-lady: that’s ok. Everyone is scared , as we should be
WereBear
@SatanicPanic: Tell them to watch the last night of the RNC if they really want to be shocked.
different-church-lady
@OId Man Shadow: needs more curse words
WereBear
@Elizabelle: There was a commenter who figured they looked at the polling, discovered a watermelon could win, and wanted their own figurehead.
Which makes excellent sense to me.
Betty Cracker
I don’t know what’s going to happen either, but I would expect Biden’s campaign manager to say the boss is “absolutely” staying in the race as long as it is an open question, even up until a nanosecond before he drops out, if that’s what ends up happening. There’s no upside for the campaign in equivocating before a final decision is made; a qualified response would just amp up the media frenzy.
different-church-lady
@WereBear:
I don’t want to bet democracy on that being an accurate analysis.
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker: You’d think that would be obvious, right?
WereBear
What I’m seeing is a lot of people getting hip to how much the political press wants to be kingmakers and shape the politics.
They are constantly tripping the Democrats to give them a much heavier handicap. Or Republicans will never win.
It took decades and most of my productive years, but they have finally revealed their power-mad fantasies with a 900 page pdf and a website. Now Biden has one too.
There’s our candidate’s answer.
hueyplong
@SatanicPanic: “I also don’t know anyone who thinks he’s on a path to win.”
You might want to widen the circle of your acquaintances.
Princess
@Betty Cracker: That makes sense. Even if they’re just buying time to create a smooth transition. (If that is what’s going on at all — I wondered yesterday when the “Biden is receptive “ talk started if there was already a transition plan in place. To be clear, I still think him stepping down from the nomination for Harris is more risky than him staying)
Steve in the ATL
@OId Man Shadow:
Sounds like you’re at an airport right now!
Betty Cracker
@SatanicPanic: In “sales” conversations, maybe focus on what a fascist prick Trump is? Argue that a comatose Biden would be preferable. It has the advantage of being true! ;-)
Elizabelle
@WereBear: That’s just it. Dobbs. Immunity. Infrastructure spending and all the good and competent Biden accomplishments, even though they are underreported. Trump being a known quantity, putting off a stench.
This has always seemed like ratfucking.
And talk about demonstrating how corrupt Citizens United is. Major donors want to sink the Democratic nominee, and Peter Theil bought himself a VP candidate. Elon Musk shoveling $45 million monthly at a fascist presidential candidate.
It is John Roberts’ legacy.
Llelldorin
@SatanicPanic:
The old “tire rims and anthrax” argument still works, even if the other choice is “a really good meal that you’re worried might have been left in the fridge too long.”
The fact that Biden is now extremely old and is in some decline doesn’t suddenly make Trump look better. Trump is still tire rims and anthrax.
schrodingers_cat
@SatanicPanic: If you are on Twitter I can name some people you can follow
First of all follow Biden and Harris directly so you will know of all their events. Unfiltered. Jaime Harris is another good follow
Welcome back!
I want Biden to be our nominee and that he is the best candidate to beat Trump. For one simple reason that he has been the best Democratic President of my lifetime. With the most legislative wins after LBJ with much slimmer majorities than LBJ had.
I am genX.
Steve in the ATL
@Llelldorin: plus trump is also old and in worse decline than Biden.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker: True. I thought it’s possible Biden said that to mollify some, and because he has Covid.
john b
this whole situation reminds me of a much more consequential / serious version of a coaching change / search. See Roy Williams at Kansas after a loss in national championship game when asked about UNC:
He left Kansas for UNC later that week.
UncleEbeneezer
Some of us, in fact, many of us have been saying this from the very beginning. After what we’ve seen in 2016, 2018, 2022, etc., any time something blows up this big, this fast we should assume that nefarious people/govts and other bad actors had a major hand in it.
Elizabelle
Trump is rather satanically lucky, isn’t he? Gives a long and shit-tastic acceptance speech. Which is blown off the front pages by a global computer outage.
Ah well. We have time, and receipts.
tam1MI
So, 1400 elected black officials have called on the Democrats to stick with Biden and the Hispanic legislators have called on the Democrats to stick with Biden, but we are all supposed to dump Biden on the say so of a bunch of privileged Dem politicos that could comfortably fit in a DC tour bus.
Democracy in action, folks!
WereBear
@different-church-lady: This was a theoretical after Hulk Hogan was asked to speak at the RNC.
I figured it wasn’t much of a leap at that point.
SatanicPanic
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not. I tried it for a bit and then I realized that it would be dangerous for me to be on there wasting more of my time.
I mean, I don’t know if anything would really help at this point. Not trying to be a downer, I’m just telling people what I am seeing IRL and how I feel about it. The idea that this is all media manufactured just doesn’t gel with my experience. I had my doubts before but was keeping them to myself. That debate performance made it possible for a lot of us to talk about them out loud
Also, thanks SC!
CaseyL
@tam1MI:
This self-destructive internal ratfucking is shaping up to be a real donors v. voters conflict.
Not just donors v. voters, but donors v. constituents.
“Never mind the people on whose behalf you’re governing, WE have the money and you gotta do what we say!”
UncleEbeneezer
But hey, white progressive podcasters, Centrist Media assholes and billionaires want Biden to step aside so I guess we should go along with them…
rikyrah
This is how you do it💃🏿💃🏿💃🏿
👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾
WereBear
Nothing like a few Chubby Emu videos to get me to clean out the fridge.
dnfree
I have a theory. IF Biden decides to drop out, whether because of his own perceptions of the situation or because of pressure, he could go big and blame it on the Supreme Court’s recent presidential immunity decision. He could say that it’s important to clarify how wrong that decision is constitutionally BEFORE the election, and that both parties should agree that it’s a terrible decision, and he’s going to drop out and turn the race over to Kamala (not his current term, just the election and following term) so he can concentrate on what he’s good at, getting legislation passed, rather than campaigning. It would be great if Democrats and some Republicans could agree to pass something before the election. But would Mike Johnson, in line of succession just behind Kamala, agree to call such legislation for a vote?
Parfigliano
So what do you think our esteemed Natl Press will try next if this present shitshow they are manufacturing doesnt get Biden to drop out?
$8 blue check mistermix
On the “absolutely” comment from his campaign manager I was more interested in the fact that she went on Morning Joe in the first place. If they were cooking up an exit I’d think his campaign staff would avoid TV appearances. But, yes, they’re all going to say he’s in until he’s out.
WereBear
@Elizabelle: Everyone with Apples are doing fine. Perhaps the word will get out from all the artists and designers :)
raven
@schrodingers_cat: fuck lbj
Al Rennick
Kamala Harris / Mark Kelly 2024
zhena gogolia
@Princess: There can be no smooth transition. It will be a disaster. Congratulations on that.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@OId Man Shadow: Fuckin’ A right.
Captain C
@BlueDWarrior:
I would love it if, say, Pelosi and Obama came to him and all he said was “Come back when you have a clue. Until then GTFO and start working to attack Trump and win this damn election.” And then had them removed from his presence.
After all, it is his job to protect the Republic and democracy itself, and that includes from weak-kneed donors and their politicians.
OC
@OId Man Shadow: THIS 1000%
schrodingers_cat
@raven: Indeed. So Biden is better than LBJ!
UncleEbeneezer
dnfree
@SatanicPanic: I can’t unsee the debate. Yes, Biden has been an EXCELLENT president, but at that debate he looked like someone who got off at the wrong bus stop and wasn’t sure where he was. He has always been a better senator/VP/President than a campaigner, but this was something I had never seen from him. And if that was June, what “surprise” might we see in October when it’s too late?
Just so you know, this is not a popular view here but I have to believe my own eyes. And I also don’t know that a sudden replacement would work any better. It’s a much more fraught situation than it was before the debate. Either way this goes, if we lose the election there will be recriminations, and that won’t help either. I don’t have any say in the decision nor do I have inside information or insight.
tam1MI
“Kamala Harris orchestrated the recent disgraceful frenzy to oust Joe Biden. If he wants to be elected, he must fire her as Vice President and install Adam Schiff in her place”.
eversor
My question is would anybody want to step in for Biden?
I get this is all within “the rules” and as we’ve shown over the past several elections the rules are the rules and even if they are stupid and unfair it’s our jobs to clap harder despite the rules and if you don’t you are supporting fascists. So I do get a good chuckle out of the rules goring the people who were joyed when the rules were used to gore others. Cry harder.
I just don’t see anybody wanting the job. Forcing Biden out is going to cause this entire thing to go down in flames. And whatever blood sacrifice they manage to put up as the nominee is going to get blamed for the resulting shit show and have their political future ruined. It’s not fair to Harris who is defacto going to get stuck with this shit sandwich. And I doubt even the overly egotistical Newsom is stupid enough to self immolate over it. So who are we going to get to commit sepuku over this?
If we are going to sacrifice someone over it why aren’t any of these assholes trying to force Biden out throwing their hats into the ring and putting some skin in the game? All these people have smart ass ideas but none of them have the nuts to be the one to do it!
UncleEbeneezer
@Eyeroller: And it’s very-online supporters.
hrprogressive
@UncleEbeneezer:
100%, but a lot of normies don’t wanna hear that.
UncleEbeneezer
@dnfree: So you believe your eyes for 20 minutes when he’s exhausted and on cold medicine, but you don’t believe your eyes every time he’s looked perfectly fine, ever since? Got it. Enjoy your pie.
Spc123
@japa21: nonsense, they would have interfered a long time ago then. The issue is they think he is a weak candidate but if they don’t accept Harris as the only realistic alternative, the whole thing is a non-starter. If they can’t do that, the shit needs to stop.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@raven: Represent!
M31
Anyone who thinks that one appearance should kill a candidacy (a la Biden’s first part of the debate) is now required to watch the entirety of Trump’s speech from last night before they say another word
The Thin Black Duke
@UncleEbeneezer: Did dnfree watch the speech Trump gave at the RNC? If Biden’s debate made him nervous, I’m surprised Trump’s rotting word salad didn’t give him a brain hemorrhage.
(Damn it, M31!)
UncleEbeneezer
@hrprogressive: I’m talking about people right here, who are not normies by any stretch of the imagination. They are hyper-online, pay a ton of attention to every aspect of politics and are supposed to be more so much more savvy than normies. But they fell for the same exact bullshit and were just as much in denial that this was likely a PsyOp (with multiple actors, moving parts) to help Trump.
Comrade Scrutinizer
Damn. I’m looking at so much pie and cake lately my A1C is going to go up 2 points, at least.
Snarki, child of Loki
Because of the Supremely Deplorable Fascist Court, if Biden decides to drop out of the race, there’s a few things he should do first:
WereBear
@dnfree: What about all the other things he did before and after? He said he wasn’t feeling well. He was honest.
And I’m not hiring him to debate psychopaths. That is what the debate was about, actually.
And if you look at it that way, he won.
UncleEbeneezer
oldgold
It is way above my pay grade to figure out what is going to happen.
But, when it comes to big time Democratic party politics and push inevitably comes to shove, keeping a close eye on where Pelosi is at is probably where wisdom lies.
Elizabelle
@eversor: good point
zhena gogolia
@eversor: Thank you.
E.
I think I am boring people with my canvassing stories but this is the closest you get to talking to random dems so I am going to soldier on. I canvassed a guy yesterday whose house I almost didn’t go to because it looked pretty Trumpy and you don’t want to do that (I have been escorted off people’s property not at gunpoint but by people pointedly holding a firearm) but I went anyway and it was an electrician who gave me a long lecture about how furious he was a the Democrats, how Joe Biden was the best president for labor in the history of the Republic, how he created more union jobs, good jobs, than anyone, and how this man’s union was 1200 strong and he figured 90 percent pro-Biden, and “30 percent pro-Obama.”
People! I think we are going to win. There is work to be done but we are going to win.
prostratedragon
@OId Man Shadow: Fucking “A.”
WereBear
@UncleEbeneezer: He’s been fighting with the press for MONTHS. That’s why I didn’t trust them.
I trust Joe Biden, though. He has been delivering.
zhena gogolia
@E.: Thank you.
Now I have to get back to work!
WereBear
@E.: I love your stories!
BellaPea
I have been beyond depressed these last few weeks. At least Dump’s speech last night proved to be a major shitshow. As far as I’m concerned, Biden-Harris is our ticket and that’s what I continue to believe. And I think that ticket can beat that orange monster and his phony hillbilly in November. Our local fish wrap is a USA Today subsidiary, and I have added Susan Page to my list of official assholes in the press. She had a tongue-bath article giving the love to Vance in today’s latest outrage. Our MSM sucks big time.
Captain C
@CaseyL:
As always, this line from William S. Burroughs comes to mind:
tam1MI
There is a reason why 1400 black legislators signed a letter giving full throated support to Joe Biden knowing that Kamala Harris is his Vice President. They know she is being set up to fail.
Betty Cracker
Another reminder that Biden holds all the cards here because he has the pledged delegates. No one has the power to force him out — not donors, not Russian ops, not party leaders and not even Dem voters who want a different nominee, of which there are many despite the dubious notion that a cabal of elites is driving the revolt.
If I had to guess, I’d predict he’ll stay in since he rolled out of the cradle wanting to be president and it would be hard to give up that prize. But if he drops out, it will be his decision, and the power players who want him out know that.
If Obama, Schumer, Pelosi, Jeffries, et al., are pussyfooting around behind the scenes, that’s probably why — they know only Biden can take himself out, and maybe they think a public dis would make him more likely to dig in.
Whatever happens needs to happen soon. We can’t go on like this. I think Mix is right; it will be decided within the week, for better or worse.
Captain C
@M31: And if they’ve been obnoxious about it, in a Clockwork Orange-type setup, possibly with the Captain blowing bong hits in their faces until they clue up.
hueyplong
dnfree is arguing in pure bad faith. The suggestion that Biden “work on legislation” in the face of a GOP-controlled House and a Senate that tanked a border bill so insults our intelligence that I hope board decorum doesn’t prohibit pointing that out.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
Or because he has an excellent record as President for 3.5 years, he truly believes he is the only person who can defeat Trump, and he loves his country.
hueyplong
@zhena gogolia: Yes, how arrogant of the one person who has beaten Trump to think he can, you know, beat Trump.
ssdd
Four more traitors:
UncleEbeneezer
@zhena gogolia: And because he got more votes than any candidate in US history, beat Trump once already and was chosen by Dem voters, to do so again.
WereBear
This was settled in March. Practically speaking. Superman did not show up, and we went with the incumbent, because the last time that was tried we lost.
CaseyL
@ssdd: They’re doing this NOW? After TCFG’s speech last night?
Cacti
@Betty Cracker: The 1940s-1950s generation never did anything gracefully, now including knowing when to step aside.
The 2024 election is a microcosm of the declining American Empire as two past their prime old men now fight to see whose vanity will reign supreme.
tam1MI
@ssdd: Four more reasons to stay home in November.
zhena gogolia
@CaseyL: Yep. Fuckers.
Jinchi
Just pointing out that even after 3 weeks of bad press, Biden is still listed as a tossup in the 538 prediction and within the margin of error in the Bloomberg swing state polls.
Jumping to the conclusion that there is “no way” Biden can win and should quit seems iexcessive.
prostratedragon
@CaseyL:
Found stuff:
Threadreader of a large excerpt of AOC’s video;
AOC’s instagram post.
ssdd
@CaseyL: yup. Another senator, Heinrich, piped up too. Gormless, the lot of them.
LanceThruster
“We get the government we deserve.”
Yeah… we’re fooked.
[sigh]
😞
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Still no love for pro-Biden converts in the media, huh?
I wish, as a member, that this group was seen.
zhena gogolia
Meanwhile,
The MSM should take note of their future.
SatanicPanic
@dnfree: Yeah it’s not a popular opinion so maybe it’s just best to keep it to myself. It’s out of our hands anyway.
zhena gogolia
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Who are you talking about?
schrodingers_cat
@Jinchi: It was all because of a spurious poll by Dem consultant Shor, which showed Ds losing NJ.
WereBear
Listen to what AOC says about the polls!
Chris Johnson
@WereBear: Funny thing about that, ‘big money donors’ are even more anonymous than unsourced advisors.
We can’t even assume THAT. It’s said you should read the Financial Times rather than any newspaper because that’s the one where the readers actively NEED the real truth and will break shit if they’re lied to for propaganda purposes.
You cannot simply assume all big money donors are Dr. Evil caricatures that seek only control through crapping on Biden who… delivers strong economic fundamentals, consistently.
Sane big money donors (for instance, check out what Mark Cuban gets up to) are just as capable of deciding Biden’s stability must be protected at all costs. In particular, they’re just as capable of looking at the debacle of the RNC and going ‘yikes’ and running like hell away from that mess.
OId Man Shadow
@Betty Cracker:
Three weeks of unending “Biden is old, feeble, and unfit to be president for four more years” from even Democratic media sources has had the intended effect.
tam1MI
It’s a pattern. Every time it looks like the Dems as a party are about to get back up on their feet and fight Trump, they plunge another knife in our back. They got their 30 pieces of silver and fuck the rest of us.
I say it again: The second Joe Biden is ousted, my vote goes up for grabs. I will be writing in Biden’s name on the Presidential line and the rest of the party can go pound sand.
WereBear
@Chris Johnson: I agree, but are they all causing trouble or just the dysfunctional ones?
Cacti
@OId Man Shadow: Yes, it definitely wasn’t Biden at the debate appearing old, feeble, and unfit to be President that created that impression. Just a media psyop.
Don’t believe your lying eyes and ears, people!
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
This again, for the cheap seats.
Though I question the existence of (D)emocratic media.
schrodingers_cat
@WereBear: Many people in this country are innumerate and can’t analyze data. They just look at the top line and their eyes glaze over if they have to delve in the details.
For example a commenter who wants to push Biden out was touting a NY Magazine poll which had a restrictive sample (black women 18-55) as proof that Biden has lost support among black women.
Cacti
@tam1MI: Thank you for acknowledging that you belong to a personality cult.
M31
after 3 weeks of THE WORST press, optics, infighting, outfighting, and yes, a shitty first half debate performance, Biden is still doing fine and making up ground (and that’s before last night’s Trump shitshow)
not as bad as Carter being primaried by Ted Kennedy in 1980, and it’s telling that no candidate has come forward to say “vote for me instead” — why not? if they are 100% convinced that Biden is going to lose, then (as AOC said) put your chest out and say it
Schiff should drop out of the CA Senate race and declare he’s all in to replace Biden if he feels so strongly
I also wish at least one of the reps would come clean about the donor pressure, and blow it wide open.
LanceThruster
@OId Man Shadow: That include the president? Messaging is a big part of the job, particularly in election years.
burritoboy
Betty,
That’s just a completely offensive characterization of Biden. Of course he has huge ambition – nobody can get anywhere near within a bazillion miles of where he is without it – but he passed up running in 2016, supported Obama through eight years of being VP and spent literally more decades working for it than almost anybody else. (Such figures as Sanders or Warren are either older or nearly as old as Biden, but didn’t start their political careers until much later in life.) (Yes, it’s true he passed up running in 2016 because of a family death – but the fact remains he did that when he didn’t have to, and he would have been an extremely formidable primary opponent to Hilary at minimum.) Portraying Biden as some kind of power hungry maniac is simply unfair.
UncleEbeneezer
@hueyplong: Also, the notion that Biden is some opportunistic jerk who doesn’t really mean it and only wants the power/attention of the office, is a gross, anti-Biden talking point that should’ve been left back in the 2020 primary. Nobody on our side should be spreading this bullshit.
schrodingers_cat
@tam1MI: That’s why I feel like someone is orchestrating this drip drip of doom. NP is the obvious choice, she has been tepid in support of the President. And her favorites got this ball rolling (Raskin and Schiff) knifing Biden. It saddens me because I was the biggest fan of Nancy Smash.
I came to this conclusion using Sherlock Holmes’ wisdom.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@schrodingers_cat: Her mealy mouth statements are enough to disappoint me in her, but I’m not up for speculative conspiracy theorizing.
schrodingers_cat
@burritoboy: She has never been a big Biden fan. Check out the archives you don’t have to take my word for it. Same with many others here on the agnostic/push Biden out brigade.
Mr. Bemused Senior
💯
The idea that Biden is running due to arrogance or lust for power isn’t just stupid bullshit, it’s a deliberate attack.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Exactly.
MinuteMan
We dodged a bullet when the sniper missed Felonius Gunk. The GQP would have turned on a dime after his demise to support the new nominee and they might well have accidentally settled on someone smart enough to not say the quiet parts out loud. Now we have to hope that JOEmentum will survive the plutocrat putsch so we can get on with defeating the party of plutocrats.
MomSense
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation:
How does the blog feel about Harry Enten? Do we hate him? Anyway he made the point that in national polling every single day of 2024 Trump has been ahead of Biden. Every single day of 2024. By contrast Biden was ahead every single day of 2020.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: I was pied by some commenters yesterday for saying this. One of them announced it too, I am pieing you blah blah. I think I will go hang out on Twitter instead of this cesspool of coup supporters.
I got my right to vote in this country after more than 2 decades of living here. It was not easy at all. I am not on board with this disenfranchisement by mostly white moneybags and grandees of the Democratic party and their amen chorus here.
LanceThruster
@Eyeroller: Like herding cats.
:—–:
“I’m not a member of any organized political party…. I’m a Democrat.” — Will Rogers
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@MomSense: Polls that famously predicted a red wave two years ago and tight margins on abortion votes?
I’m unimpressed with any polling ever, especially this far out. The polls will improve, anyway, if we stand up for our candidates. All of them.
delphinium
@E.: I really enjoy your comments. Such a great perspective compared to the media blather. Thank you for your hard work and be careful out there!
LanceThruster
@MinuteMan: Release the Shouty Biden!
hueyplong
@schrodingers_cat: “… I feel like someone is orchestrating this drip drip of doom.”
You’d have to work awfully hard to convince me that this is not orchestrated. Come on, 3 or 4 people, every other day, with the days in between featuring unidentified “senior” Democrats (keeping in mind that Crypt Keeper Carville is pretty “senior”).
WereBear
@Chris Johnson: Likewise, the old Wall Street Journal was known for excellent reporting, while the Op-Ed pages were looneytunes.
Chris Johnson
@UncleEbeneezer: That is EXACTLY how you best handle the situation. Perfect.
Cacti
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Why is it bullshit. He’s been a political office holder for a half century and can’t let it go even after showing the world that he’s clearly diminished, and already the oldest man to ever hold the office of POTUS.
Sounds a lot like old man vanity
tam1MI
They will deserve everything they get.
WereBear
@schrodingers_cat: Yes. Called being innumerate.
But good explainers make it easy. Media now doesn’t think it’s their job.
But it is.
zhena gogolia
@tam1MI: But we won’t.
TerryC
@Cacti: Or, just maybe he knows he has the opportunity to follow up on an excellent four years and do more good things for Americans?
WereBear
I love this 2025 website. You can tell a lot went into it. Just what everyone needed.
WereBear
@tam1MI: Not only that, they are being TOLD in Project 2025 what their fate will be!
ssdd
@hueyplong: I mean, they got a PAC now and are running anti Biden ads, so… (from WaPo)
MinuteMan
@M31:
Schiff should drop out of the CA Senate race
and declare he’s all in to replace Biden if he feels so strongly.There’s plenty of better Dems who can beat Steve “where’s my pa” Garvey.
UncleEbeneezer
@Chris Johnson: To me, it’s pretty easy to read between the lines: of course I’m staying in the race you dumb motherfuckers…
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: You know, this is the first time i’ve been made aware of the fact that Evan Whatsisname works for the wall street journal. Suddenly I care about his fate a lot less.
WereBear
@ssdd: This has distinct “No Labels” vibes.
Chris Johnson
@M31: Again, they can’t come clean about Dem big-money donor pressure if there is no Dem big-money donor pressure and instead it’s a narrative, crafted by the press that are literally making the claims you must trust to believe it, for the purpose of… what?
Stirring up divisiveness and rage in the Democratic party to make people say ‘that’s it! I’m staying home! To hell with you splitters!’
What other purpose can there be? Which of these stories NAME big donors who are on the record in pressuring Biden to drop out? Citation needed.
If it is completely anonymous and unverifiable, it is just a claim by the same media that has been acting remarkably consistent for weeks and continues to do so. You simply can’t say, ‘The media is talking insanely about how great JD Vance is, and how statesman-like Donald Trump and Hulk Hogan apparently are, but all of a sudden now that they’re talking about Big Dem Donors, this time we can only assume they’re not making anything up at all’.
MinuteMan
@schrodingers_cat: <blockquote> It saddens me because I was the biggest fan of Nancy Smash.</blockquote>
I think that deep down she’s always been Nancy $ma$h; the Dems have had a pathalogical big money addiction. She’s just been smart enough to not leave fingerprints and to throw the occasional bone to the people.
zhena gogolia
@Citizen Alan: Well, that’s unfair.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@MinuteMan: I will say, as much as I too love Nancy Pelosi, she has one of the most problematic relationships with moneyed interests in the party.
Imagine whipping your caucus against preventing insider trading by Congressfolk.
M31
https://bsky.app/profile/glegum.bsky.social/post/3kxnjr35tuh2o
now, this is also from the NYT so take that citation with as much salt as you need, but it’s a name
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: Sorrt. But i’m of the opinion that every single person who works at the wall street journal is committed to the destruction of american democracy. I bet even the janitorial staff is full of fascists.
ssdd
@WereBear: yup.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Citizen Alan: It takes a committed fascist to clean fascist messes.
schrodingers_cat
@ssdd: Its a PAC made by the alum from the Dean Phillip campaign IIRC.
Captain C
@zhena gogolia:
Some of them are planning their tell-all memoirs: How I Survived 20 years In a Trump Camp (Which Makes Me Better than Everyone Else!)
I’m sure that in the unlikely event they survive such an experience that everyone will be eager to go out and buy a book from one of the idiots who sold us all out in the first place.
tam1MI
And the sad thing is, a lot of people will see this obvious pattern and conclude that it is being orchestrated by Kamala Harris because “she has the most to gain from it”.
M31
@schrodingers_cat: an alum from the Dean Phillip campaign, you say?
now there’s a track record to be proud of
ssdd
@schrodingers_cat: that makes sense.
schrodingers_cat
@WereBear: Media is not up to it. These Journalism school grads have only a passing acquaintaince with math.
delphinium
@WereBear: I thought a commenter had stated in another thread this is a PAC from the big donor behind Dean Phillip’s primary run. So no sour grapes there, right?
Also this is on par with the “WalkAway” campaign trying to get Dems to leave the party in 2018. Funny how you never see these types of campaigns against Republicans.
Chris Johnson
@M31: That’s fair. The only thing I would say is… I did specify BIG donors. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard the name ‘Martin Heinrich’. I’ll also grant you other big donors with names I’ve heard, like Peter Thiel and Vladimir Putin, are indeed wanting Biden to drop out.
But, fuck ’em :D
schrodingers_cat
Politics does make strange bedfellows, who knew we could count on AOC and BS more than Nancy Smash to have Joe Biden’s back.
Props to Bill and Hillary Clinton too
I make decisions based on the facts I have at hand and change my opinions if new facts come to light.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@tam1MI: If it is Harris, which is isn’t, she is managing an air-tight stealth operation.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@schrodingers_cat: All your biases are suspect.
tam1MI
Yeah, I was willing to forget and forgive that as a single misstep from a pol who I perceived as otherwise a loyal Democrat. That illusion has been shattered.
MinuteMan
@WereBear:
But they’ll say it’s just Felonius Gunk and those jokesters at the GQP pulling their leg and we’re all too humorless to get it.
The media is also slow to see the message behind the Hannibal Lector stories: what’s not to like about an urbane villain who eats the faces off of his foes and dines on the sweetbreads of anyone who displeases him. It’s just a more abstract version of Twitler’s crush on NK’s Kim.
Chris Johnson
@tam1MI: I’mma have to see open statements of disloyalty from her, in full, to believe it.
The thing is, Nancy Pelosi is another case where extensive, years-long groundwork has been laid to try to set things up so she could be accused of treachery and people would believe it.
If AOC said Nancy Pelosi was treacherous, I’d likely believe it. But strangely, I’m not hearing any such report from her. I’ll have to see some public, full-quote bad takes to believe Nancy has suddenly got this politically dumb. I think she’s being set up yet again.
Bupalos
@hrprogressive: To clarify: the Biden out position isn’t vibes, it isn’t polls, it isn’t one bad debate, it isn’t self inflicted silly hyperventilating, it isn’t rich donors who always hated Biden. It isn’t Biden is incapable of presidenting. It isn’t (in a weird double-reverse) fear of a black president. And it isn’t just creating itself or being created by the media and something that disappears if we clap loud enough and stop talking about it.
If you’re hanging all your anger about people disagreeing with your position on one of these assumptions, consider they are incredibly shaky and maybe something you’ve talked yourself in to. It’s patently ridiculous to discount the obviously very widespread opinion of electeds on this and try to form narratives that they’ve all gone corrupt here, that everyone has gone crazy except for Biden (and Bernie?).
Here is what it is to me: we’re down in an environment that should be positive, and we’re running a candidate with a proven massive negative among indies and loose affiliates that simply can’t be changed. It just can’t, he’s 81 and he massively confirmed the opposition’s prime narrative they’ve been pounding for 2 years. And since then he’s demonstrated he’s not as bad as his worst, but cannot remotely approach his old best. Now his communications will practically only be evaluated in the minds that matter in relation to that attack that he’s just too old. Realistically “Biden too old” can only stay the same or get worse and it could get massively worse, which is what happened from April to July. He needs to do much more vigorous and strenuous campaigning than 2020 but is manifestly less capable of doing so. It is unlikely he can do effective campaign communication at all because all anyone is listening for is an assessment of his ability to look traditionally strong and fit. We’re trapping ourselves into an individual feats of strength contest… one that it’s not impossible Biden could win because Trump has declined quite a bit too. But it’s not our best play I don’t think.
regardless of disagreement, please stop with the attacks. This rips people apart not because there are great arguments on one side and insane arguments on the other, but because there are great arguments on both and huge uncertainty and risk either way. At least understand you’re taking a position practically the entire D establishment (who has more information than you do) seems to profoundly disagree with.
tam1MI
The logical conclusion from this insult is that you were lied to when you were told that Biden was a deeply unpopular candidate that you could oust with no consequences whatsoever. If what you say is true and Joe Biden is the leader of a personality cult who will stick by him no matter what, that means there will be a “find out” phase after you have fucked around and thrown him out.
You might want want to think on that.
And for the record, my “personality cult” is: I cast my vote in good faith in the Presidential primary and I expect my party to honor it.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Bupalos: “Biden is too old” is the only culturally acceptable position and blah, blah, blah…
Sister Golden Bear
@SatanicPanic:
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Seriously, LGBTQ+ people have been fighting for decades for our rights. Black folks have been fighting centuries. Even when it seemed like it no one was listening, even when it seemed hopeless.
Nothing is over until we decide it is.
tam1MI
Dean Phillips, who I point out again, can show up at the Democratic convention and make a legitimate case that he should should be the next nominee because he got the second most votes in the Presidential primary where Kamala Harris got none.
WereBear
@MinuteMan: I remember she came from machine politics, as was her father.
Formative years. And she helped keep Trump at bay. I’ll never forget that.
But her husband was injured and was already fragile, she’s been through more hells than me with the political risks, and I’m giving everyone a pass.
It’s panicky times.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@tam1MI: He got decimated making the same argument the palace coup enthusiasts are making now. He has no claim.
Bupalos
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I said nothing like that, that is dishonest. I said it’s unrealistic to think “Biden too old” as a dominant theme can go away, or stop interfering with his campaigning. It’s unlikely that it will not in fact get worse. Possible but unlikely.
More shoes will drop. As bad as this meme is now, it is not static, it’s on a trajectory. That’s what has the establishment asking Biden to reconsider.
UncleEbeneezer
@Sister Golden Bear: Thank the FSM for that. If we had to rely solely on White, Cis/Het people, we’d be truly fucked.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Bupalos: You didn’t say it explicitly. It is the precise attitude I have gotten from every member of the dismiss Biden caucus. What you said is consistent with that attitude. You’re entirely dismissive of the notion that someone may disagree in good faith.
And all this newling is making its trajectory more and more dangerous.
Bupalos
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I’ve repeated again and again that I consider your side in good faith and possessed of great arguments. I did so again in the very post we’re discussing.
tam1MI
In this, I emphasize HYPOTHETICAL scenario, she wouldn’t need one. All she would need is the same media that refused to report on George Santos’s criminality even when Dems were pounding down their door and presenting teams of evidence about it.
schrodingers_cat
@Chris Johnson: She could shut down this speculation in a hot minute and I hope she does that soon
SatanicPanic
I agree with Bupalos. People can agree or disagree with Biden’s chances, but suggesting people who think he’s too old are being brainwashed is probably not helpful. The day after the debate, before people had really consumed the media spin, my friends were telling me “oh we’re fucked, that guy can’t win”. I had already had a lot of doubts before that- like, why didn’t he do a Super Bowl interview? Why did we see so little of him? It really seemed like they were hiding him and some of his public appearances were unnerving.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe he can win. I don’t know.
tam1MI
@Bupalos: You have been taking arguments against your position here in good faith and I for one appreciate it.
Madeleine
@eversor: yes, indeed.
LanceThruster
@dnfree: what further complicates matters as far as I’m concerned is the argument over the risks of replacing him, and those saying he’s fine. He’s not fine. Continuing to claim that destroys your credibility entirely.
Make the Whoopi pants argument if you want, but stop saying he’s fine.
PatD
@Captain C: C’mon now. And then Biden begs Obama to campaign for him?
PatD
@tam1MI: The person who orchestrated the drip of doom was Joe Biden. None of this happens without his debate performance. The resulting loss of confidence was and is entirely his fault.
PatD
@tam1MI: this is the equivalent of people writing in Bernie because the “DNC coronated Biden” or something like that. Ultimately the decision on whether Joe Biden stays or goes will be made by… Joe Biden. He has the party and nomination over a barrel.
Captain C
@ssdd: Wasn’t he the one threatened by a donor?
UncleEbeneezer
This is exactly what people said about Hillary’s Emailz. Then we found out there was, in fact, an historic-level PsyOp by Putin, Assange, The GOP etc. These PsyOps work because the people who push them know they can count on responses just like yours to keep their rat-fucking campaigns alive.
Bill Arnold
@SatanicPanic:
Did you watch felon Trump’s GOP Convention acceptance speech?
It cannot be unseen.,
As they say.
Betty Cracker
@burritoboy: “Power hungry maniac” is your phrase not mine, but I think anyone who runs for POTUS has to have a ginormous ego, and unlike most pols who hum “Hail to the Chief” when they look in the mirror, Biden’s presidential ambitions persisted over many decades. During the 2020 primaries, it struck me that Biden appeared on the ballot when I was a college student and then on my college student kid’s ballot 30 years later. He wanted it bad!
SatanicPanic
@UncleEbeneezer – I think in both cases there are bad actors taking advantage of an existing situation. Hillary really did have her own account and Biden really does appear too old to a lot of us. The difference for me is that Hillary’s emails never meant anything to me and I assumed other people wouldn’t care either. With Biden, I have to admit, he looks to be in bad shape. I can’t really explain it away. It feels fake to me to make a case for him without admitting that, and I feel like that’s a hurdle many voters won’t get past.
@Bill Arnold: I didn’t but I don’t feel like I need more reasons to think Trump is unfit for the presidency and generally the worst person in the world.
eversor
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t care about the chances and I don’t care how fucking old he is either. What I care about is “the rules” keep being abused. And it gets worse each damn time.
In 2008 when Obama was ahead we were told Super Delegates existed that could change the outcome.
In 2016 we actually did have a rigged coronation.
In 2020 our donors flat out told us neither Warren or Sanders were acceptable and they’d tank them in the general.
In 2024 with voting actually starting in September (mail in and early) they are taking out the party in July and setting up the VP to fail.
You have to ask the question. Does the Democratic party believe in democracy?
PatD
@eversor: some good points here but how else does a party resolve the issue? There is no non-messy way out of this. And the blame for that is entirely with Joe Biden.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker:
It might also be that they don’t want to risk totally alienating him, especially if he ends up winning again. In that not implausible scenario, they will need to work together and they don’t want to have a legacy of public disrespect in the way.
O. Felix Culpa
Just called Senator Heinrich’s office to register my strong disapproval. Asshole. Although he’s up for reelection this year, he has nothing to worry about. Asshole. I deliberately repeat myself.
Betty Cracker
@O. Felix Culpa: Great point. I think many of them really do have a lot of affection for Biden too. They aren’t happy about it.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker:
The wanting and the ego are not inherently signs of bad character. I think he really is committed to the notion of public service. He didn’t have to push so much progressive legislation and enact so many progressive executive orders in his administration and, arguably, he’d still have more of the money bags’ support if he hadn’t. So he’s acted more in the public interest than in his own. I’ll take that kind of ambition and competence, any day.
Betty Cracker
@SatanicPanic: The goal isn’t persuasion. It’s to bully those who disagree into silence.
eversor
@PatD:
Which problem? That the Democratic party does not actually believe in democracy and has rules to make sure it and it’s donors can get what they want? The only way to fix that is for the party to die off.
Or the “Biden problem”? The only way that doesn’t end in a disaster is for Biden to die or suffer a massive medical issue and land in the hospital. Which would mean he wasn’t pushed out and would allow Harris to campaign for someone who martyred himself and avoid any blame for the ensuing cluster fuck.
Biden isn’t entirely to blame for this. The coronation of 2016 is what got the ball rolling to this mess followed by the threats against Warren and Sanders in 2020 by the donors.
Then there’s the issue that Democratic party is a gerontocracy. I think there’s still a lot of trauma over RBGs idiotic decision not to step down which has given people PTSD.
This situation has been decades in the making. And there’s a lot of blame to go around to everyone but the voters who are all at the mercy of a shitty system run by power mad assholes and self important rich fucks.
O. Felix Culpa
@Betty Cracker: I think you’re right that there’s genuine mutual affection. I’m sure the situation has unhappily strained both sides of the relationship.
LanceThruster
@Bupalos:- well stated. Certainly worth considering/discussing. There was a time that virtually every contrary opinion was viewed as a troll, and the “proof” was them running smack dab into the pie filter. I think there’s a good argument to be made that they pie filtered Trump right into presidency in 2016. A similar mindset might wind up giving Trump the rubber match here. Will that result in a new round of purges?
I’m all for requiring respectful discourse, but treating every view outside the group think as purposely belligerent just doesn’t hold up.
What I like most about the give and take here is people providing metrics to support their positions. It definitely makes for a good jumping off point. Metrics can also mislead, and everyone seems willing to dismiss the more unfavorable polls.
I don’t venture much to the Ukraine threads because my disagreement is pretty much so total, that saying anything would look like trolling. I just finished a Lex Freidman interview with Walt Mearsheimer, and he confirmed for me how I see what led to the invasion. One of the reasons it’s so easy to accept tge US position on Ukraine is wrong, is knowing how wrong they are on Palestine.
Whitney Webb is on Jimmy Dore now explaining where the money is being made with both Ukraine and Israel. J.D. Vance stands to profit from it as well (something about the Richard Thiel connection).
LanceThruster
@eversor: how many guesses do we get? (nice summary btw).
LanceThruster
@zhena gogolia: yeah… why let complicity in genocide, or prolonging the death and misery in Ukraine, stain his illustrious record?
He hit the ground running with lies to puff himself up in the ’88 primaries. Easily verified lies. What sort of person thinks this is a sensible campaign strategy? Someone who thinks the ends justifies the means if he thinks it’s to his benefit. And the craziest part… it wasn’t. It showed what a blowhard he was. He thought he was so slick that people wouldn’t question his three degrees graduating at the top of his class on full scholarship.
Truth: one degree, near bottom of class, half scholarship.
I also believe Tara Reade.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
The US is providing Ukraine the tools to fight for themselves. I have complaints about Biden, but his Ukraine position is the first time in my life I saw a President make a military decision that I approve of.
Or do you think Ukraine should just bow to a foreign autocratic power? Your agitating against the Biden nomination suggests you don’t believe in democratic processes.
AWJ
@LanceThruster: Whitney Webb? Jimmy fucking Dore? Whitney Webb is a 9/11 truther who writes for the campist (pro-CCP, pro-Russia, pro-Iran) MintPress. Jimmy Dore is… Jimmy Dore. I’m not even going to try to list the conspiracy theories Jimmy Dore believes (or at least pushes on his show) but I’ll at least start by pointing out that he’s an antivaxxer who spoke at last year’s Russian flag festooned “Rage Against the War Machine” rally.
PatD
@LanceThruster: Russia is doing to Ukraine what Israel has done to Palestine.
PatD
@eversor: There a lot of similarities between Ginsburg, Feinstein, Biden etc. People who got caught up in the hubris and pride that they were irreplaceable and no one could do as good of a job. They all stayed on too long.
I agree that the primaries are relevant and should be respected. However, Biden’s clear struggles have hurt his standing and the confidence people have in his ability to win and perform. That’s being realistic and pragmatic. It is. It not too late for him to bow out and endorse Harris but only he can make that choice.
LanceThruster
@PatD: no, it’s really not. The no NATO expansion promise not kept, the 2016 coup, the attempts to negotiate holding to prior agreements, the protection of the Russian-speaking people of the Donbas, last minute negotiations scuttledby the West…
This conflict belongs at the feet of the US. Like Lindsey McConnell said, it’s a great way to kill Russians.
Also, too
Azov Nazis, Ukrainian corruption (now excuse not to let them join NATO), US arms reaching the black market (prices on some items have quadrupled – that’s some incentive), more forced conscription, US/Biden throwing more money down the rathole…
It’s over, Johnny.
LanceThruster
@AWJ: as is your right. 9/11 is about lies to prop up official narrative (Univ. AK Fairbanks showed NIST building 7 model not possible), Pandemic claims made shown false, vaxx injuries denied corroborated, etc.
Any flag can show up at a rally, but regardless, I’m rootin’ for Putin.
Darlings of the Dems like Maddow, others, have been shown to be full of shite too.