I see we have quite a day with lots of thoughts about whether it is or should be Biden, and I am pleased to report that I have now entered the “whatever I don’t give a fuck whatever energy I had for this kind of nonsense is now tapped just let me know whose sticker to put on my car and you fuckers sort it out” phase of this clusterfuck. I understand that achieving this level of Gen X zen/NFLTG/”you do you” peace of mine is a privilege bestowed upon me by luck and demography, but I’m sorry, it’s mine and I’m using it. It’s what I relied on when I wanted to quit drinking- I was just so fucking over that life and that was that.
In sum, I just can’t with the bullshit anymore. I’d vote for a fucking carboard cutout of Biden or Obama or Clinton or Harris over Trump so everything else just doesn’t fucking matter anymore. I’m gonna keep on doing my summer thing and enjoy some of the marvels that exist.
I mean did you see his fucking speech last night? Who the fuck cares who is running against him? It’s the better option.
Really enjoyed another couple hours at the gym today, and got a good walk, nice sauna, then swam for about and hour and some. I’m already noticing a difference in my shoulders and my mood. Gonna keep it up.
Dinner tonight was one of my summertime favorites- take a slice of bread, put a think slice or two of tomato with some salt and pepper, cover it with a slice of American or cheddar cheese, put it in the toaster oven for about 4-5 minutes until the cheese is melty and about to brown, and dig it. Wersh it down with a big slug of sun tea. Just the best.
I think I have mentioned this before, but I have no idea with my memory these days and don’t care enough to look in the archives, but one of the side bonuses of having been a drunk for so many years is that in the period around the mid aughts up until I quit drinking, I watched a lot of tv shows. Let me rephrase that. I was drinking while I had a lot of tv shows from that period running, so I watched them but I did not “watch” them if you know what I mean. So that means that there are a lot of shows I am having a good time watching, and much of it is for the first time.
Such is the case with True Blood, which I remember enjoying, but rewatching it now in all it’s campy glory and complete excess is a lot of fun. And that is what I am going to do this evening. Eat some cantaloupe, pet a cat, and watch True Blood.
Not obsess over what a bunch of turbonerds on twitter think about the election.
New Additions
different-church-lady
I’m so glad the RNC is over, so we can get back to the vitally important work of kneecapping our own primary winner.
wonkie
I loved True Blood, too. I learned about Parks and Rec from you, John. Thanks! My current favs are Outlaws (the one set in Wales), THe Gentleman (the one about the aristocratic pot grower and his organized crime partner), Rez Dogs, and Bridgerton.
Percysowner
I’m sure we will all be delighted to know that
Marianne Williamson Is Making A Play For Joe Biden’s DNC Delegates And THAT children is where this stupid fight gets us, Marianne EFFing Williamson thinking she can sneak in on the ticket.
I mean if the Democrats WANT to wander in the political dessert for 50 years, that will do it. Heck, she can get Jill Stein as VP and make it 60 years in the dessert.
different-church-lady
@Percysowner:
“Anyone but Biden can beat Trump!”
[Marianne Williamson has entered the chat]
“Is there an edit function here?”
TaMara
Dude, I tried to keep a civil thread going, but around #250 it fell off the cliff.
I bailed and then went and worked on a NZ Meat Pie recipe and then made a chocolate puff pastry “croissant” with the leftover dough.
So I’m in my happy place.
SW
I’m with you buddy. I checked out a few months ago. I think at this point it is tribal. We have two primary tribes in this country now. It hardly matters who the figureheads are. In November we will use this Rube Goldberg contraption to measure the relative sizes of these two tribes. Our tribe is growing. Theirs is shrinking. I like our chances.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Percysowner: “you don’t ask, you don’t get.”
gwangung
Gym work is heavenly, particularly right now. My mom passed away the past weekend and it just feels like a slog to get through the day. (Able to spend some time with her before she passed, so there’s that. Minor squabbling with the family and cemetery on dates, but that’s predictable,,,who knew that there’d be multiple major figures in the Chinese American community dying so close together?)(Also,,,trying to produce a show. Here’s to finding out if I’ve trained my mentees well enough….)
John Cole
@gwangung: I’m very sorry.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Kang or Kodos is a hard choice
eclare
@TaMara:
What is a New Zealand meat pie?
Geminid
@Percysowner: This nothing but performative shit-stirring. Williamson isn’t gonna win over any delegates and she knows it.
The proposal will get some traction on-line though, because Williamson has always been a stalking horse for people who think the Democratic party deserves to fail and want it to.
TaMara
@gwangung: Deepest condolences. I’m glad you’ve found a way to do something good for yourself while you deal with this loss. Hugs
eclare
@gwangung:
I am so sorry.
MobiusKlein
@gwangung: Peace be with you and your family.
Omnes Omnibus
@gwangung: My condolences.
Percysowner
@gwangung: I’m so sorry for your loss.
Eural Joiner
https://youtube.com/shorts/oQZh4atWpLg?si=OsYD3M5tVt4Ti4kj
This is unreal. This is the USA 2024 in reality 😳
Kristine
@gwangung: I am sorry
I hope your mentees come through so you have time to breathe.
TaMara
@eclare: It’s not very complicated and I’m doing because I have a Kiwi character in one of my book series, so I like to play with recipes to include in the story.
Basically it’s meat (usually ground beef, steak or chuck) cooked with a thick sauce (I refused to even entertain marmite as part of that), put into a puff pastry, along with cheese, making a handheld pie. There are all kinds of variations, but that’s the traditional.
O. Felix Culpa
@gwangung: Heartfelt condolences, and good luck with your show.
WereBear
@gwangung: Be careful. We can do too much in such a state.
My sincere condolences on such a loss.
eclare
@TaMara:
Gotcha. I lived in London for a while years ago, and I was always scared of the “meat” pie. What kind of meat? Who knows!
Omnes Omnibus
Poor Milwaukee.
Omnes Omnibus
@eclare: Were you near a barber shop?
Kristine
@TaMara: A friend introduced me to Marmite as an umami additive in gravies. It really does work.
I understand the feelings about it, though. It’s weird stuff.
TaMara
@Omnes Omnibus: 😯😁
Mr. Bemused Senior
@gwangung: I add my condolences.
eclare
@Omnes Omnibus:
No?
But I was a block away from a kebab place that was open all night. Yum!
bluefoot
@gwangung:
I’m so sorry for your loss. I will keep you and your mother in my thoughts. And also sending positive vibes for your mentees.
KM in NS
@TaMara: there’s an excellent NZ pie place in Nova Scotia… “Humble Pie” in Dartmouth. Yummy! I don’t know what they do differently from other meat pies , but they’re delish!
Fair Economist
Been trying to get an MRI for intermittent hip pain for 6 months and after a denial and 3 months ineffective PT finally got it today. Yay me.
Chris Johnson
@Kristine: That would work, yeah.
prostratedragon
… I watched them but I did not “watch” them if you know what I mean.
I know exactly what you mean, whenever I watch something from the last decade or so before CPAP. Long-term sleep deprivation is a lot like drinking.
NotMax
@eclare
If it’s labeled NZ, better than even chance it’s Not Zebra.
KM in NS
The bar in the woods of the first seasons reminds me of the MS Delta of my youth. They really got the vibe right! Cool show… until it got weird.
eclare
@NotMax:
Oh god, how can you even say that?
WaterGirl
@gwangung: I’m sorry, that’s so hard. Even going to the grocery store felt weird and wrong after my dad died. Everything just felt surreal.
It’s different for everyone, of course, but hard for all.
Sure Lurkalot
@gwangung: So sorry about your mom.
I can totally relate to the “minor squabbling” regarding the ceremony–my family does this too and I figure it’s just part of the grieving process.
MisterForkbeard
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: I’ve always hated this, because I see it all the time from other folks on the internet to describe Dem v Rep elections. You also see the “Giant Douce and Turd Sandwich” references from South Park.
Like, fucking a. It’s not two bad choices. It’s (at worst) meatloaf vs an anthrax-injected and rotting sandwich that’s also somehow racist.
ETA: And yeah, I know you’re not being serious about this, but… ick.
It’s a choice that’s fine but you may not like much vs something really, really awful that might kill you. Not accusing you of this personally, but I wish people would retire this awful false equivalency crap.
HinTN
@TaMara: Sounds a lot like a Natchitoches meat pie. They are every bit the equal to crawfish pie.
Happy noshing.
ETA: Those Louisiana pies are fried pies
eclare
@MisterForkbeard:
Didn’t someone, gee I can’t remember who, refer to it as spaghetti vs. anthrax?
lol chikinburd
@gwangung: Condolences.
HinTN
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh my word!
Mr. Bemused Senior
@MisterForkbeard: with a side of tire rims
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?
@NotMax: In South Africa I had an ostrich potjie pie. It was delicious. Potjies are mini cast iron Dutch ovens they use to bake savory stews and meat pies in wood fired ovens.
SW
@gwangung: Went through that process last year. Hang in there. It gets better but it can be a slow grind. Be patient with yourself.
Lyrebird
@gwangung: My condolences on your loss. It’s been a bit over a year for us and we’re still a bit dazed.
rk
I’m voting for the Democrats even if it’s a dead fish at the top of the ticket. My dream team is kamla Harris and Michelle Obama, or Elizabeth Warren and Gretchen Whitmer (don’t care which combination). All I know is I want an all women ticket. Men have completely fucked up the world. Not all men, but enough of them. So time to give women a chance. As a woman I can’t believe the obsession men have with women’s bodies and human sexuality. Imagine if they had the same energy for poverty, environment or healthcare.
chrisanthemama
@gwangung: May your dear mother’s memory be a blessing. You’ll get through these stressful days soon enough–hang in there.
chrisanthemama
@eclare: I’ve read David Sedaris’s description of the undecided voter as being a passenger on a plane, with the flight attendant describing the meal choices as a plate of shit with broken glass sprinkled on top, or chicken–to which the passenger asks: how is the chicken prepared?
WereBear
BREAKING NEWS
Biden staying in
Telling Dr Allan Lichtman via his aide: “polls are fickle”
https://youtube.com/shorts/-SWS1sv-fUE?si=a5OJgyZdVq2ewQHv
gwangung
@John Cole: Thanks, John
And thanks to the rest of the folks around here. I appreciate it.
CaseyL
@gwangung:
I am so sorry. It’s good to have things to do. I have not yet suffered a loss of that magnitude, but from being with people who have it seems to me that grief is its own process, can’t be hurried, and about all you can do to get through it is stay busy.
Best of luck with the play and the mentees!
rikyrah
@gwangung:
So sorry for your loss 🙏🏽 😞 😢
rikyrah
Keith Boykin (@keithboykin) posted at 9:40 AM on Thu, Jul 18, 2024:
Donald Trump was the first president in US history to come in office with no government or military experience. JD Vance never served in public office until a year ago. If they were Black, women, or people of color, Republicans would call them a “DEI ticket.”
(https://x.com/keithboykin/status/1813946949877596322?t=tHvN1Q7SajDPNs6-lIATRw&s=03)
schrodingers_cat
@gwangung: I am so sorry, that’s hard. May she RIP.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Indeed.
Jay
https://nitter.poast.org/hntrbrkmedia/status/1814296493437669759#m
The Thin Black Duke
@gwangung: My condolences on your loss, my friend.
UncleEbeneezer
@different-church-lady: “Is there an edit function crystal here?”
UncleEbeneezer
@gwangung: Deepest condolences to you.
mrmoshpotato
@chrisanthemama:
That is so good.
mrmoshpotato
@gwangung: So sorry for your loss. Take care of yourself.
David_C
Glad you’re rocking the gym routine, John! Finally cool enough here in MD – was able to mow the lawn and edge/weedwhack. Cherry tomatoes are coming in and the basil is plentiful enough to make pesto. Too much drought, unhappy bean plants.
Politically, I’m digging into Project 2025. As a fed in public health, I’m looking at the staffing preamble and HHS section with a sense of foreboding. Can’t let this happen.
schrodingers_cat
@The Thin Black Duke: @rikyrah:
What do you say to our supposed allies who are dismissive of our concerns about KH replacing Biden. I am running into a brick wall when I try
You don’t have to necessarily answer this. I am just expressing my frustration to those who get it.
H.E.Wolf
@gwangung:
Sympathies. May all your lasting memories of her be good ones.
hitchhiker
shit like that right there is why I keep coming back.
the only thing to do right now is The Work — stop reading, watching, or listening to any and all analysis, punditry, predictions, polls, or “news.”
truly, this is one of those times when nobody knows shit about shit, and the more certain they sound, the less they know.
absolutely no advantage to be gained by exposing your brains to that noise. none.
let the turbonerds turb.
WereBear
BREAKING NEWS
Biden staying in
Telling Dr Allan Lichtman via his aide: “polls are fickle”
https://youtube.com/shorts/-SWS1sv-fUE?si=a5OJgyZdVq2ewQHv
schrodingers_cat
We had a break in the weather and I went for 3 mile walk this morning. It was so good to be out and it was actually nice and breezy.
rikyrah
Uh huh
Uh huh 🤔 🤔
Elizabeth I got my MFA Blumberg ⚖ (@EBlumberg11) posted at 7:17 PM on Thu, Jul 18, 2024:
Weird how anonymous sources get called “high level Democratic elected officials” and 1400 Black women get called…1400 Black Women.
(https://x.com/EBlumberg11/status/1814092051090395544?t=Wg63EQue8Zgit7t1O0mQHw&s=03)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@schrodingers_cat: No point in talking if the other person an’t listening.
mrmoshpotato
@rk:
Oh, if the women-hating ghouls had that energy and concern for societal needs…
Tony Jay
Well. British politics is entering a period of slow drift towards a “hang on, that’s seriously it?” realisation for millions in a couple of years, so meh. And until the Chicken Coup runs it’s course one way or another there’s little to talk about here.
So I think I’ll take a beard out of Cole’s chin and watch my way through the Star Wars series. Andor is nice and gritty, Acolyte is pleasing to me, and I’m looking forward to Ashoka.
That’s me until about September.
schrodingers_cat
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Indeed. Its not necessarily for them but others who read the blog and the comments.
Hoodie
Seems like a lot of people are misunderstanding what AOC was saying in the thread below. It was not a resounding endorsement of Biden, but rather a plea for those wanting to replace him to be open and honest about it and fully address the practical problems of replacing Joe on the ticket. So far, none appear to have outlined an alternative plan with some chance of working. As she said, the most practical option is Harris, but a lot of the donor class wanting to dump Biden also want to replace Harris. There is some legitimate basis for concern about a Harris run; we all know the unpleasant realities of the current American electorate. However, the failure of these donors to support a Harris run indicates to AOC that a lot of these donors are not serious and, at base, don’t care about losing because it really won’t affect them like it will affect her constituents. They’re fucking summer soldiers and sunshine patriots.
That’s some unvarnished truth, but it is not equivalent to saying she wouldn’t support an alternative. She just wants the people wanting to dump Biden to coalesce around a workable plan NOW. However, people getting mad at Dem pols like Heinrich who have gone on the record about wanting Joe to step down are not listening to what AOC is saying; those Dems are basically doing what AOC is asking them to do, i.e., quit talking off the record and be honest with their constituents. I won’t hold it against them because this really is a shitty situation that should have been avoided, but the blame for that can be spread pretty wide. As AOC pointed out, this would be a different conversation if it were still 2023. Personally, I vacillate between falling in behind Joe or supporting Harris replacing him. I think it might be a wash. As AOC points out, Joe has a lot of liabilities but he also has some unique electoral strengths (e.g., older voters) that are crucial for a Dem win, and those may be hard to transfer to another candidate.
rikyrah
@schrodingers_cat:
Well, I know what I know
I know that if the VP was a White anything, we would not be in this position.
I know that all my years experience in being Black in America tells me that it’s about the VP.
And, I swear, I knew it, but it took a TikTok from about three weeks ago, for me to REALLY get it
he broke it down in numbers , plain to see.
But trying to change the rules of the game in the middle of the game…
Naw, Son.
Absolutely not.
Slightly_peeved
@gwangung:
my condolences. so sorry to hear that. take care of yourself.
MagdaInBlack
@gwangung: My condolences to you and your family.
wmd
Keep at it with exercise. You’ll benefit from it.
Slightly_peeved
@Hoodie: while I think your read is correct, I think not having a plan for a decision as important as this makes it a non-starter. I think it’s very good communication from AOC to not say that, whether or not she thinks it.
MagdaInBlack
@rikyrah: @schrodingers_cat: I am stunned that people don’t remember what was said about her when Biden chose her. That’ll happen 1000 times worse.
But no, I see la-la-la everyone loves her, it’ll be exciting.
wtf?
schrodingers_cat
@MagdaInBlack: I am having a rather pointless conversation with one of the rah rah let’s replace Biden with Harris folks in the last thread.
BlueDWarrior
@Hoodie: and that’s the nut of the problem for me. If they wanted to do this, then do it honestly. So far I have not seen anyone willing to lead the charge personally, aka risking taking the fighting and losing.
They are trying to structure this to where Biden leaves first and THEN we get a free for all in whatever time is left to determine a candidate? And knowing full well how bitter normal primaries get in this party, we’re supposed to resolve all of this and be ready to fully go by Labor Day? Have they not been through 2008, 2016, 2020?
Most of them have, and the donors that sparked this do not care. They just don’t want Biden (and for seemingly a lot of them, or Harris either) on the top of the ticket. The details can be worked out at a later date.
There is no later date now. If you had the stones to do this you should have done it this time last year. But you didn’t have anyone nut up and possibly take the risk to the rest of their career. SO now they are trying to blow it all up before anyone can have a chance to make a counterargument. Just put the party to gunpoint and say “Get rid of both of them and maybe I’ll give you enough money to win A House of Congress… maybe.”
That is where my personal bitterness comes from, they knew what the process was, and they either couldn’t get anyone to jump in, or tried to wait until it was impossible for the public to respond to their chosen candidate, whoever that is.
We don’t deal in hypotheticals; we deal in what people are actually doing, have done, or continually repeat they intend to do.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Thanks for your reply. I agree 100 percent.
JCJ
@Omnes Omnibus: That is hilarious. With all those barricades it really was a mini-green zone.
MagdaInBlack
@schrodingers_cat: I saw. That was on my mind when added you to my comment
Dr. Fungus
@wmd: And the longer you do it, the easier and more automatic it will get.
Slightly_peeved
@eclare:
ground beef in sauce is the traditional Australian meat pie, but anything meat or vegetable that could be put between two pieces of pastry would work. I prefer a chunkier beef stew, or the ‘Ned Kelly’ pie (beef, bacon, cheese and egg)
One of the places I go for pies specialises in Australian wild-caught meat. Kangaroo, Wallaby, Buffalo and Crocodile are offered in a variety of curry sauces. The Buffalo Massaman pie is amazing.
rikyrah
Kenny is back, spitting truths 👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾
https://x.com/2RawTooReal/status/1814290787506766072?t=AO_Iw6fI21K87V9Or_Hh0g&s=19
Jay
@Hoodie:
There is no “workable plan NOW”,
Biden is not quitting.
Jay
@BlueDWarrior:
They are unserious people. They are just engaged in deliberate sabotage.
MagdaInBlack
@rikyrah: I’ve fallen in love with Kenny.
LanceThruster
Vampire guy in the end does what is ultimately the right thing to do despite what it costs him personally.
A parable for our times.
BlueDWarrior
@Jay: And I believe the counter play from the certain powers-that-be is basically strangle the party to death. This is going to spill into the open because, and while I have no proof of this, this is all gut feeling, I think Biden-World is sending the message back that Biden only leaves if there is a consensus replacement.
The only person in place to be that consensus replacement is Harris; so if all the ‘Drop Biden’ people do not absolutely commit to Kamala Harris, he is not budging. So now we got a half-public standoff over this.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So this seems to an open thread of sorts. A work story for you. Me and Filipino -American coworker had an argument over something. I can’t even remember what it was, me and the coworker are good friends and we come up with silly stuff to argue about for amusement. Pure bruh stuff. He is an engineer and I am a technician. Anyway, I heard from another East Asian coworker that another Filipino unironically scolded the Engineer because I am white, he is Filipino, so I am right he is wrong.
Jesus fucking Christ, First, another reason to loath the scold, and second minority on minority racism
LanceThruster
The latest vid (must be doctored), is Biden mistaking a blonde lady for Jill, and the look on his face when Jill rushes up to pull him aside is priceless.
He seemed to mistake someone looking slightly similar… for his wife!
mrmoshpotato
@Slightly_peeved:
Sounds good!
Hoodie
@schrodingers_cat: I wouldn’t be surprised if Harris has some doubts of her own. It would be entirely reasonable to want to avoid being cast into that situation.
I think a lot of the leadership got caught flat footed on this but, in their defense, this has never been a clear cut situation. We just buried my MIL, who two years ago was an active woman in her mid-80s. She went downhill very quickly. There may have been concerns about Joe’s aging back in 22-23, but they weren’t clear enough to encourage anyone serious to consider running against him in the primaries, especially because he’s been such a great president. It could be career suicide and, to be fair, at least some of them may have thought it would be a shitty thing to do. Well, now it might be a problem, but shit happens. You play the cards you’ve been dealt. I get the sense that a lot of donors don’t want to accept that.
Soprano2
@gwangung: I’m so sorry for your loss. 😪
BlueDWarrior
@mrmoshpotato: Sounds like breakfast to me. Maybe sub the beef for sausage depending on local cost.
mrmoshpotato
@MagdaInBlack: He’s great and has NFLTG.
Jay
@gwangung:
My condolences on your loss, it’s good that you are taking care of yourself.
Josie
@rikyrah:
Kenny is so on target. I wonder who he thinks is being set up to run in 2028. Talk about an interesting person to sit down and drink a cup of coffee with.
LanceThruster
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: in many cultures, the pecking order is everything. I’m guessing that as the “guest” culture, it is disrespectful not to acknowledge top dog.
mrmoshpotato
@BlueDWarrior: That works too.
LanceThruster
@gwangung: – sincere condolences. My own circumstances with same were much dissimilar, but the grief involved is likely not.
Ohio Mom
My heart broke a little when I saw that Sherrod Brown — Sherrod Brown! — said Biden should step aside. I feel betrayed by my Senator.
I like AOC and think she’d whip smart but really, what she said about the lack of gaming out what switching candidates would result in was not very profound, it seemed obvious to me from the start of this dust-up. It reflects very poorly on the senior members of the party (like you, Sherrod) that this didn’t occur to them.
It’s like that old meme that goes like:
1) switch candidates
2)
3) Win!
None of them can notice the details of Step 2 is missing from their plan?
MagdaInBlack
@mrmoshpotato: Don’t know if your an AM radio listener, but if you are, this guy has kept me sane these past few weeks.
https://heartlandsignal.com/programs/chewviews-with-richard-chew/
Hoodie
@Jay: Oh, I basically agree. The only practical alternative is Harris, and I seriously doubt that would make much of a difference in our chances. If these idiots could come up with some sort of coherent idea as to how to organize and finance a campaign out of thin air in the space of a couple months, I might listen but I’m not holding my breath.
The only thing I would say is we may need to have a bit of tolerance for some people who are panicked, like some of the dem pols who are being pressured by big donors. It takes a shitload of money to run even a congressional campaign and, unfortunately, we have to rely on these folks to some extent.
BlueDWarrior
@Hoodie: are you in my head, because you are beating me to a lot of thoughts I’ve been having.
Where was this serious primary challenge before? When we actually had the chance to put someone up against him to see what actual Democratic voters thought. I will tell you where, no one showed up basically.
Everyone who actually had a chance to maybe take 40% or, heaven forfend BEAT him, decided to not gamble on an unknowable.
The Biden has a piss-poor presentation in the first Debate; shock, horror, panic, he’s clearly doomed, jettison him into the Sun! Give him a State Funeral and all the Hagiography the best NYT and WaPo writers can manage.
But there is still not concrete alternative. None of the people being polled has said anything other than “I am doing my level best to get the current presumptive Nominee over the line.”
Biden is at his very most weak RIGHT NOW. If someone wants to replace him they basically have one week left. They aren’t ready to at least challenge him for the Delegates it will be honest to God too late to.
You don’t get to be President by having a Golden Road paved for you, you get there by bulldozing a dozen other people on the way, and then getting their supporters back on your train after you’re done.
Usually we have an entire year to blood-let over that; and they think we can do it in ONE MONTH?! How… just tell me how.
Until someone answers that How, I am not entertaining any more questions about dumping him beyond “momentary internet argument”.
WereBear
According to Doctor Alan Lichtman of the Keys to the Presidency. He received a call from a Biden aide saying that the president has decided to go with the science of his approach.
He’s staying in. Not listening to “fickle polls.”
Omnes Omnibus
Off to watch Mary Beard’s History of Rome on Prime. Have a nice evening or fuck off (choose one).
BR
@BlueDWarrior:
Yeah, that’s my read as well. And good on Biden (and AOC and Bernie — never thought I’d be including them) on making sure that there’s a sensible plan in place.
Elie
@gwangung:
I haven’t communicated w you here in a while but I send you my sincere condolences. May her memory be a blessing
LanceThruster
@Hoodie: true… but like with an actuarial table, or percentage play calling, the smart money takes these things into account. They left themselves looking incompetent, and the gaslighting makes them look untrustworthy and having no respect for the base. I think Kamala should take advantage of the opportunity and rise to the occasion. She wanted the damn job after all. Sing, or get off the stage! Confidence in the face of adversity is appealing.
Like when emergency room doctors put me at ease telling me it’s not that bad.
schrodingers_cat
@MagdaInBlack: Thanks. The last few weeks have made me so tired.
LanceThruster
@mrmoshpotato: I blame evolution… but women helped direct that somewhat as well, I’d venture.
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodingers_cat: I move on. As you said earlier, anyone who casually dismisses my concerns isn’t a “friend”; they’re an “acquaintance”. In 2016, people I thought were friends became acquaintances when the Supreme Court was in play, but that wasn’t important to them because Hillary Clinton was History’s Greatest Monster back then. Oh, I’m sure they reluctantly voted for Hillary, but their media platforms expressed how much they hated doing so,which I’m sure helped turnout. It’s the same fucked-up game with the Dump Biden nonsense, and I don’t have the patience to talk people off the ledge when real monsters are banging on the gates.
schrodingers_cat
@The Thin Black Duke: Good advice. I made an exception, my bad.
M31
@Omnes Omnibus: Mary Beard is great, love her books.
rikyrah
@MagdaInBlack:
What I love about Kenny is his knowledge of the policies..
And, he makes it personal. He routinely tells how certain programs and policies have helped him personally.
gwangung
@BlueDWarrior: Ditto ditto ditto. I’ve had the same thoughts for the last few weeks (but not as well articulated) and all I got for responses were more Green Lantern politics.
(Maybe getting REAL pissed at political idiots may help the grieving process. If so, I have plenty of targets….).
rikyrah
Michelle_BYoung (@michelle_byoung) posted at 0:46 PM on Fri, Jul 19, 2024:
They’re essentially trying to takedown the most successful first term president in history over ageism and his successor being a Black woman! We are LITERALLY trying to beat back FASCISM & they’re like “but these aren’t the characters I picked so…”
Seriously STOP IT! https://t.co/ZGmFJZykKS
(https://x.com/michelle_byoung/status/1814356216585265599?t=4ICuMRYqmSlGYCmMv6UXrg&s=03)
LanceThruster
@BlueDWarrior: actually… Biden was carried to second base and thought he got a triple. His purpose was to kneecap Bernie. If it was baseball, he’d be the relief pitcher called in to get out just one batter then pulled. The primary didn’t allow for that. The things done to reanimate his zombified campaign were unprecedented. Calls were made, the field was cleared, he had the Super Tuesday vote practically delivered, and the narrative became how the people clamored for Joe (his sparsely attended rallies notwithstanding). Smoke and mirrors from start to finish.
me
This better be bullshit or Biden is telling them fuck no. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/19/pelosi-support-open-nomination-biden-drop-out-00169893
Jay
@Hoodie:
@BlueDWarrior:
President Joe Biden is not quitting, even if the “Chicken Little Dems” promise to “promote” MVP Kamala Harris,
because he knows their “promises” are, how do I put it,……….?
Oh, yeah,
Utter Malarkey
grubert
@rikyrah: damn! Kenny is spot on!
Sharing on the facebooks w my moderate lib buds.. watch the steam spurt out their ears
Ishiyama
This is disheartening; a thread that was supposed to leave the acrimony aside is overrun by the same set of I-know-not-what from I-know-not-where, whose purpose would appear to be not to convince others, but to disrupt and obstruct any progress towards a conclusion. “Blocking consensus”, we would say.
rikyrah
Me too.
Me too.
Tim (@trouble_man90) posted at 6:49 PM on Fri, Jul 19, 2024:
Biden’s loyalty to Kamala is something to behold. He sees the wolves eyeing her, trying to usurp not only him but her as well, and he will be damned if he lets that happen. I am deeply moved and motivated more than ever to push or carry him across the finish line.
(https://x.com/trouble_man90/status/1814447548452745234?t=-Mn77TAmpgN0oJD5GEzagA&s=03)
Martin
Welcome aboard. I think it’s just the two of us here.
MagdaInBlack
@me: Paragraph # 2 has the anonymous person quote.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: I am deeply saddened by how he has been treated. I became more of Biden Democrat than I was before.
lowtechcyclist
Had a nice bike ride this afternoon. Reading more books these days. One of these days, this fever will break, right?
LanceThruster
@BR: establishment Dems regularly shjt on Magic Grampa, but he always seems to have the greater good in mind. His supporters got pjssed when he didn’t use his leverage at all. He had lightning in a bottle in 2016. The DNC squandered it playing chicken with the fate of the nation in their pursuit of power by putting their thumb on the scale and not anticipating the fallout. Like a car thief also asking for some gas money.
It was such a “sure thing” Ms. “Ready for that 3am phone call” didn’t even think to have a concession speech prepared.
Chickens were counted, but instead came home to roost.
BlueDWarrior
@Jay: And that’s where I reach my conclusion. This is all happening because the powers-that-be know they would have lost a straight up challenge. There wasn’t anyone eligible right now that could have beat him this winter/spring. So this is the last push to force him out so they don’t have to deal with him (or Harris) next term.
But once again, there is no consensus candidate, and that is the thing that strikes me the most in this entire month-long drama. Do they really, truthfully expect us to basically run a Delegate-Only Primary in less than a month, and then re-calibrate an ENTIRE national campaign before Labor Day?
If they honestly believe that can be done, I just want to say they are entirely cracked in the head and do not deserve to comment on politics until they get some damn sense.
Jay
@me:
So, more journalmentalism,………..
Well I guess when you are trying to destroy democracy you work with what worked last week.
Tip, stop panic reading, the clicks are their reward, just like responding is a troll’s reward, and it’s best not to repost the manufactured bull shit.
Stick to the organic bull shit from a trusted brand.
Ishiyama
Here is a thought: The California pols that are behind the dump Biden movement succeed in having him withdraw, and hold an open convention. Bernie Sanders puts his name in, wins the nomination, and picks Kamala Harris as his VP candidate. (Bernie makes this deal with KH ahead of time.)
A boy can dream about the first Brooklyn Jew President, can’t he?
The Thin Black Duke
@Jay: The big money Democrat donors are reminding me of the sociopaths in Galt’s Gulch who willingly watched ten of millions of people die to achieve their Free Market paradise.
MagdaInBlack
@schrodingers_cat: The last 8 years have made us tired. That’s the intent. Keep the chaos swirling til it wears us down.
BlueDWarrior
@Ishiyama: If that is the way all of this ended I would honestly howl with laughter.
“Boy you thought an elderly Pennsylvania/Deleware Irishman was bad, wait until you have to deal with an ideologically driven elderly Brooklyn Jew…”
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
Also, I’m sorry, but that shows horrible political instincts. The only sane way I see this working is for Harris to be the nominee, if it’s not Biden, with Biden’s blessing and the convention rules changed to ensure she’ll be the nominee. She’s the sitting VP, she was voted on by the primary voters as part of the ticket.
tam1MI
Someone on the last thread posted that there were something like 80,000 people who were passionate on Gaza who would vote for Harris in a heartbeat. It took me all of 5 seconds on Google to find these links that could and would be deployed towards them:
Kamala Harris: I Stand With Israel
That link contains this tasty quote from Harris: “As a child, I never sold Girl Scout cookies, I went around with a (Jewish National Fund) JNFUSA box collecting funds to plant trees in Israel.”
Kamala Harris Gives Off the Record Speech to AIPAC
Kamala Harris Opposes BDS
Yeah, tell me again how the “Genocide Joe” crowd is just going to looooooooove her…
Jay
@Ishiyama:
just another fantasy.
The ticket in Novembers will be Biden/Harris.
Only Biden/Harris can use the $130 million+ in Campaign funds.
Only Biden/Harris can use the thousands of offices already rented, and over a hundred thousand campaign staff, who have been working the Ground Game for almost a year.
BlueDWarrior
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): the fact that so many Dump Biden people are going with Open Convention like they have a fetish for me makes this think that it’s all coming from a combination of emotion and pressure from moneyed interests.
Because no one can tell me a brokered convention at this stage with a bunch of national half-knowns is going to lead to a stronger coalition by Labor Day. I can’t square that circle in my head seeing what I’ve seen in American Politics the last 25 years.
MagdaInBlack
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): O.F.F.S.
eclare
@MagdaInBlack:
Yep. I’m exhausted.
Percysowner
And the Pie List just keeps on growing.
bluefoot
Ignoring politics and thinking about favorite summertime dinners…
A friend of mine from Tennessee does pimento cheese and fresh sliced tomatoes on home baked bread. It’s his go-to for summer. I’ve been trying to wheedle his recipe for pimento cheese from him.
I made one of my favorites last week when temps stayed in the high 90s here in Boston: gazpacho. I use a slightly modified version of the recipe in The Moosewood Cookbook. And making gazpacho always makes me thing of “Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown” so I get the double bonus of tasty goodness and laughing out loud remembering the movie.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@MagdaInBlack:
I’d prefer that to a “mini primary”, which I find stupid, if it came to that
Ishiyama
@Jay: It is not a fantasy; it is a THREAT. Don’t you think Bernie hasn’t considered that, as a fall-back if his support for Biden can’t save Joe?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@BlueDWarrior:
Yes, I think it’s stupid too
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
It’s less real than my Canadian Girlfriend, (don’t tell my Canadian Metis Wife, she knows how to skin a buffalo).
Over 80% of the FTMSM “anon claims” have proved to be either bullshit, made up, or edited quotes.
As AOC pointed out, if they arn’t willing to put their name on it and need to hide in the shadows, they should either shut the fuck up or leave the Party.
John Revolta
@LanceThruster: ………..You left out the part where he won.
Percysowner
From a non-Presidential political campaign ‘Help elect a childless cat lady’: New Hampshire Democrat cashes in on J.D. Vance jab Apparently it’s been a hit, as it should be.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Just to be clear, I responding to what Pelosi is allegedly wanting in the quoted section by Jay
MagdaInBlack
@bluefoot: Grilled swiss cheese and fresh tomato sandwich and sweet corn fresh from the garden.
Jay
@BlueDWarrior:
An Open Convention is just a Primary 2.0 in which the voters are disenfranchised and the Delegates made the King Makers.
M31
gonna have to make a list of the dumbest takes yet
1) that sex pest guy saying for sure Biden would drop out during Trump’s speech and not endorse Harris
2) mini primary with Taylor Swift as a moderator
seriously, at this point “collect underpants” is the sanest alternative to “Joe stays in” that I’ve seen
Poe Larity
This is like the phone call horror movie where the police detective calls and says the calls are coming from the house.
schrodingers_cat
@tam1MI: She is going to wipe the floor with Trump, according to BJ resident Middle East expert turned geriartric medicine expert, turned expert pollster and data analyst.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@rk: FWIT I once read an article about all the wars of the world were fought by men at the head of the army, except for one, and that war would suggest that women should run wars because the side run by the women won such an outright victory.
ill leave the jackaltariat to guess which war.
cmorenc
@SW:
Their strategy is to seize all the high ground (SCOTUS being a prime example) and create enough formidable barriers in enough states via gerrymandering soon as they do get narrow temporary control (not just heavily red states like South Carolina, but NC where the partisan split is close to 50-50) that they will be able to hold power indefinitely with a “smaller tribe”, even a substantially smaller one. Authoritarian regimes like Iran hold power, once seized by a radical minority, despite the resentment and objection of a substantial majority of the population. That is exactly what the hard-right is up to in the United States.
tam1MI
The situation as it stands is this: Biden has said he is not stepping down. If the Coup D’etat Caucus wants him off the ballot, they are going to have to do it out in the open and face the consequences of doing so. The fig leaf of his, “Well, it was his choice”, has been ripped away. The delegates who break their pledge to to vote for Biden will have to do it out in the open and face the consequences of doing so.
By the way, I would really appreciate it if somebody posted a list of delegates to the convention so that I can call the ones from my state and let them know how I feel about this cockamamie plan.
Jay
@Ishiyama:
For any of this fantasy bullshit to work, President Joe Biden has to quit.
Unfortunately for the Chicken Little Democrats and so called “Dem Donors” President Joe Biden has a lifetime history of “not quitting”.
They can’t force him out, and they can’t take the Party away from him and go play somewhere else.
bluefoot
@MagdaInBlack: Yum….fresh tomatoes and fresh corn….
The only upside to the ridiculously hot weather we’re having is that tomatoes and stone fruit is doing MUCH better than last year. I plan to go to the farmer’s market this weekend and pick up more of both. I also want to see if there’s still any rhubarb around. I’ve had a craving for strawberry-rhubarb pie. Or at least make some jam to remind me of summer during the Boston winters.
Lochnessmom
@MagdaInBlack:
My own kids, who are registered independents who always vote, and usually for democrats” went with “she’s a cop and can’t be trusted” during the primaries. They eventually did the right thing and voted for her as VP because of the alternative, but people are living in a fantasy land if they think she isn’t going to hammered day and night. And I don’t think she even makes it to the nomination because a vast portion of the donor class and a lot of soft, comfortable white boys (looking at you Adam Schiff) are loathe to see a woman of color anywhere near the levers of power.
Listen to the people who live the reality and don’t have the luxury of panic.
M31
@bluefoot: omg strawberry rhubarb pie, so gooooood
lol rhubarb is the best most unlikely thing
I remember years ago having to explain to a friend (grew up in NC and didn’t know what it was, not sure if she was weird or it’s not common there), what the deal with rhubarb was, and when I said “well it looks just like celery, but it’s red, and you make pies out of it, and oh by the way the leaves are poison don’t eat them” and I got the best southern-girl side eye ever lol
Chief Oshkosh
@gwangung: I’m sorry for you loss.
eclare
@Lochnessmom:
I would argue it’s not even a woman of color, just a woman, period.
West of the Rockies
@gwangung:
So sorry, gwangung… may your loved ones and her memory bring you comfort.
Ishiyama
Just to expand on my fanfic: The Democratic Party holds an open convention. Somebody gets up and gives the contemporary equivalent of the “Cross of Gold” speech. The Convention reaches a consensus to stand against oligarchy, in the Party and in general, for the campaign theme. Who do they pick as their banner-bearer? The grizzled veteran of the long fight, from his civil rights sit-in days to the present, is the obvious choice. And the deal that gets him the nomination is backed by Joe, of course, and KH’s supporters, too, because they get a square deal from Bernie.
Laugh all you want. I will, too, if it actually happens.
SomeRandomGuy
Okay, I’m self-congratulatory enough to say – thanks. I’ve been waiting to see that plastered *all* the f over the internet.
(At that point, it would be the fInternet, and do you want TFG to try to clean up *that* sort of mess?)
MagdaInBlack
@M31: My mother made a rhubarb custard pie that I would kill for a piece of right now
Eta: also a rhubarb sauce we put over vanilla ice cream. Have to use the red stemmed rhubarb, its prettier on ice cream.
NotMax
@bluefoot
Summertime refreshment?
Chef John provides.
Some variations.
;)
Odie Hugh Manatee
@gwangung:
My condolences to you for your loss.
Soprano2
@schrodingers_cat: I cite the 2022 elections in WI and NC, where white Dems running for governor won while Dems who were black, both male and female, lost Senate races. The exact same electorate voted for one but not the other.
This situation is so hard because we’re all terrified and there is nothing that’s certain.
The Thin Black Duke
@Ishiyama: Jesus Christ.
Ishiyama
Also, if the Democrats have an open convention, the Super Delegates will get to vote. The retired politicians who want Joe to quit would gain the power to vote for his replacement. That’s another motive for these indescribables.
Martin
@schrodingers_cat: This is kind of why I think a lot of people keep misreading what is happening here.
You can’t both argue that ‘we need to pull out all the stops to stop fascism’ and ‘his treatment hurts my feelings’ or ‘it’s so sweet how he’s looked out for Kamala’ or whatever.
This isn’t a matter of fairness. This is a matter of winning. It’s not about liking or disliking him, or whether he’s been successful or not. It’s not a matter of whether he’s deserving of the blame being attached to him. At the end of the day, the point of the exercise is to win. Period. And if you have to bench your best player to win, you beach your best player. If you need to fire your CEO who carried the company to this point of success but is struggling to carry it forward, you fire your CEO. It’s not personal – it’s business.
Trump had one of the worst debate performances in history and nobody knows because Biden took all of the attention from that. Trump looks old and tired and pretty addled, and Democrats can’t even bring that up because of Biden. We don’t get to grade on a curve here. You can’t win by saying ‘he used to be better’ or ‘but what about his policy on x’. No, that doesn’t fly in a moment like this. If winning is an existential need, then all that shit goes out the window. You field the team you need to field regardless of seniority or past performance.
Now, I’m agnostic here. I think Biden can still win, but I think there are a few things about Biden that we’ve avoided talking about, that make that harder. There are a few things that make that easier. But in order to win, Biden needs to do better. His performances since the debate have been better, but they haven’t been good, and ‘what do you expect from an 81 year old’ is the kind of grading on a curve that doesn’t fucking fly.
I don’t care if it’s mean to Biden. I’m not going to welcome fascism to this country because it might hurt Biden’s feelings to push him aside. Tough shit. This isn’t about him.
I’ve said before that Democrats had no real say in the choice of 2024 nominee, despite everyone falling back on the diverse choice we were given of Biden and Philips, and how Biden routed that field. I’ve spent a lot of time working around people who were struggling with age, or addiction, or undisclosed illness, and I’ve seen heroic efforts of maintaining a public persona and outside of that they were largely nonfunctional. We can’t be privy to that – but other members of the party can be who interact with him regularly. But it’s pretty safe to say that we’re seeing the best version of Biden right now, and sometimes its bad, and sometimes it’s okay, and it’s been a while since I’ve seen good. Maybe he does still have it in him, but he’s got to deliver. And given all of Trumps vulnerabilities, being even in the polls feels like malpractice. Everyone here is in agreement on that – Trump is such a piece of shit, we should be ahead by 10. Why aren’t we?
MagdaInBlack
@The Thin Black Duke: TY.
SomeRandomGuy
@gwangung: My deepest condolences. When I lost my mom, I felt so weird, talking about it, like, “why ruin everyone else’s day?”
But people were grateful, if they realized they helped, and they *wanted* to help, so, sometimes, that worked out for me.
Be gentle with yourself – especially if you tell someone to “push off” or the US equivalent, because you’re cranky. You’re allowed to be cranky, and even occasionally rude, while grieving. Your friends won’t care, and the good people who learn you were grieving won’t hold it against you.
(Has anyone realized why it’s so important to give strangers benefit of the doubt – i.e., they might be grieving, for example – and felt like they’d suddenly learned the True Meaning of Christmas or something?)
Lochnessmom
Have a good weekend everybody. Do something fun and life affirming. Keep the faith.
I am off to pop a few gummies and watch Carpenter’s The Thing with the kids. Youngest son’s girlfriend has never seen it, so should be fun!
The Thin Black Duke
Because a sizable portion of the electorate are racist misogynists who like what Trump is selling, which is why this election was always was going to be an uphill battle.
eclare
@Martin:
Because half the country, in the right states, are pieces of shit?
prostratedragon
The cicadas
Have made it
To Bronzeville.
BlueDWarrior
@Martin: I would argue that even our best candidate would not be up by more than 6.
First of all I don’t even know who besides Michelle Obama would actually get to that 6+ pt margin, but I think the other think we really have a hard time coming to grips with is that a lot of people in this country are either fully onboard with facsim or don’t care enough to look past their pro-Republican/anti-Democratic partisanship.
The fact that NONE of the supposed alternatives can clear that 6 pt mark is just telling me we are bound to having to run close races until we can truly break the back of facsim among the hoi poli, and we are not close to that yet.
Spanky
@TaMara: You should be happy. People seem to be hell bent on giving you a double Tbogg. And I’m only sorry that that isn’t nearly as fun as some dirty minds would make it sound.
Gvg
@BlueDWarrior: I think there are 2 opposite sides. Those who oppose both of them A)because they are racist/misogynist B) they don’t like the tax policies and regulations for everyone which both Biden and Harris are pushing, and then there are the fooling themselves liberals who think Harris is better and can win easier and assume most of the democratic voters will agree. There is a good deal of fear of aging, panic at the prospect of losing and wanting to believe there is an answer. Biden made it look too easy before. It wasn’t. Being able to keep a coalition together is hard skilled work. That’s another reason I’d like to put off having Kamela take over even though he has been coaching her.
AOCs speech reminded me of another advantage we have this time over 2020. She said Biden does much better around people than with no audience such as the “debate”. That he likes people. Do you recall that the 2020 campaign all democrats including Biden restricted events and in person canvassing because of Covid? Republicans didn’t. This was thought to have cost us some margin of wins but we managed anyway. This time we won’t have that and we have already been building infrastructure wheras the republicans have been short of money all over. Big donors are threatening a cut off now, but we already got and spent a lot on the early stuff. And Trump has been sucking up what they do get for legal fees and I think just wasting it too because that’s who he is. He is not sharing it.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Ishiyama:
I tried…
not only no but FUCK NO. No to Bernie and he’s not a Democrat.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, …
Nitter (Twitter version):
+1
Cheers,
Scott.
PJ
@gwangung: My condolences. Death sucks.
Martin
@The Thin Black Duke: And the job of the candidate is to overcome that. That’s literally their only job. And you don’t need to change a single voters mind on that issue. Biden won in 2020 by getting a historic Dem turnout. All we need to do is repeat that, and that’s where the concern is – the turnout models aren’t showing those voters coming home.
There’s lots of time to change that, but that’s a proactive effort. You have to make that case, and 50% of the debate opportunities to do that are now gone. His efforts to reverse the narrative have so far fallen short. It doesn’t matter if it’s deserved or not. It can be entirely unfair. Doesn’t matter. Your job is to fix it, and bring those voters home. You don’t get to make excuses about the media or donors – your job is to win. ‘But her emails’ doesn’t make the damage done from 2016-2020 go away.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@schrodingers_cat:
It’s like being on a plane and after a bit of turbulence some passengers demand that the pilot and copilot be replaced RIGHT NOW! and scream “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!” the rest of the time.
raven
@Martin: It’s really great how you can say things like this without getting the big pile on. Good work.
BR
@Martin:
Your arguments are good and this was until the end where you completely lost me. You and I both know there’s nobody we could pick as the nominee who would be up 10 or even up 5. Even Michelle Obama, after the media attacks for weeks on something irrelevant, would only be up 3 or 4. The country just isn’t set up for anything else.
raven
@BR: And if the point is to win, so what?
delphinium
@Martin: “We need to pull out all the stops to stop fascism”. Exactly, so why are all these Dems meeping to the press rather than working quietly behind the scenes to come up with a real, attainable solution? Or do you think publicly bashing the current president going on 3 weeks now constitutes fighting fascism? Oddly enough, one would think any of these Dems who have the time to handwring over Biden, could you know, manage to at least include multiple daily jabs against Trump. But well, here we are.
“Trump is such a piece of shit, we should be ahead by 10. Why aren’t we?” I’m sure Hillary Clinton has many thoughts on this. For starters, we could take a look at the press.
MagdaInBlack
@prostratedragon: I was just saying that they’re louder here out in Arlington Heights, than they were during cicada-geddon.
Citizen Alan
@LanceThruster: I swear I keep pieing you, but you keep rising from the dead like Michael Myers!
raven
@delphinium: Take a look at the press and then do what, whine and cry about the media?
Josie
None of you are facing up to the fact that any change in the ticket will send the Republicans to the courts to stop it. Any court case will take time that we don’t have and will wind up in front of the Supreme Court. If you don’t want Clarence Thomas et al deciding who our next president is, you had better go with the ticket that won our primaries. All the rest of this is just chatter.
ETA: And that is what AOC was trying to say without actually saying it.
BlueDWarrior
@raven: That no one else would be in an appreciably better position outside of the first maybe couple weeks until hardcore partisanship started setting in.
The best I think any Biden alternative could hope for at this specific moment is +5, and that is something, but a lot of things would need to go right with initial rollout. Not to mention the process of getting to that alternative can’t unduly piss off anyone ELSE in the coalition that’s not already pissed off.
I would be more open to this discussion if it was still 2023 and not almost August of 2024. I don’t know how you get to “better candidate” with this little time remaining aside from a quite literal Act of God.
raven
@prostratedragon: They never showed in Athens, Ga.
Gvg
@rikyrah: honestly he could be correctly viewing it as it has to be him, to keep the lid on. Because once it’s not him, the factions explode and the coalition flys apart, if we are lucky, only for awhile. We don’t have the time for that. It’s not ego. Now, it’s the way the rules and laws work. At this time it has to be him with her VP.
And if he dies before the election, we still have a problem. I didn’t notice before, but there are holes in the electoral process. The states don’t all have the same rules for one thing.
raven
@BlueDWarrior: I’m going to bed, ya’ll beat that horse. It doesn’t mean shit anyway, Joe has to decide.
Martin
@BlueDWarrior: Here’s a question: if Michelle Obama agreed to run, would the ‘keep Biden’ folks who keep making technical arguments regarding primary voters and all that sign on?
I don’t think they could.
But that aside, this is still an argument that the electorate is fixed and voters are persuaded for who to vote for, when elections are primarily won by turning out your side while suppressing the other side. That is, the election isn’t won by the polling question responses, it’s won by the turnout model that everyone overlooks.
Suzanne
@gwangung: I’m so, so sorry for your loss. Hugs.
PJ
Your phrasing is interesting. “Biden took all of the attention” because the political press has had nothing but contempt for Biden for a long time (not to mention that they will do better personally with Trump in office), and saw their opening. And then weak-willed Dems who take NYT pundits seriously and billionaire donors who would pay more taxes and have their crypto regulated under a second Biden term joined the press in banging the drum.
This wasn’t some natural force, it was a choice by the parties involved. They chose to kneecap the Democratic candidate because they thought it was in their interest to do so.
Myself, I don’t think it is in the interest of American voters, in fact, the opposite. Biden was old when he was elected the first time. It’s no surprise. His speaking ability is a little slower than it used to be, but there is nothing new about his abilities as a speaker. His achievements in office speak for themselves. So I think the incumbent is the best candidate we have, not the least because he beat Trump before and Trump has only lost voters to death in the four years since.
Why Trump, after almost twelve years, remains an electoral force is down to the peculiarities of the electoral college system and the fact that a solid third of this country is bigoted and ignorant and proud of it, and and probably another ten percent only cares about lowering their personal taxes and ending government regulation on everything than impinges on their wealth. But you know this. Trump is probably the most disliked man in America, but he is the Republican candidate because he most embodies Republican values today. None of this is a surprise.
What does surprise me is how many nominal Democrats are willing to abandon the most effective President of my lifetime (maybe debatable, but not really) because he had 15 bad minutes in a debate. JFC.
Martin
@BR: Biden won in 2020 by 4.4%. The potential gap hasn’t narrowed after Jan 6.
Ishiyama
Do you want the Super Delegates helping select the nominee? I would like a clear answer to my question.
Hoodie
@Martin: If we knew the answer to that we’d be up by ten. Honestly, it seems like we win when we run a generational candidate who doesn’t scare white folks too much and makes them feel good about themselves. Otherwise, run a white dude they could have a beer with. It hasn’t really been tried yet, but you might win with an attractive white female who reminds them of their mom. American politics is a psychological mess. I wish we had a parliamentary system where a lot of this personality based politics is diluted and people act more strategically. I just spent two weeks in Canada and it was refreshing to not obsess about this shit every day.
Another Scott
@Martin: Why? Because it’s not a level playing field.
(repost) BrennanCenter.org:
A minority has made it difficult for the majority to elect candidates of their choice.
PewResearch.org:
That still leaves 1/3 of the possible electorate that didn’t vote.
To ask the question why there are differences is to answer it. It’s more difficult for minorities to vote.
Cheers,
Scott.
Gretchen
@Hoodie: Heinrich is being honest about not supporting Biden. He’s not being honest about doing it because a big donor told him he wouldn’t get another nickel if he doesn’t bail on Biden. That’s what’s driving a lot of this: big donors, and the media who want the convention to be a mess so they have lots to write about. It’s a soft coup, not a sincere effort to have the best chance.
Yikes! 773 comments on the AOC thread. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that many here.
BlueDWarrior
@Martin: to speak for myself, I’m not sure I would believe it unless she formally said anything, because of her constant and persistent denial to get involved as a candidate. That’s a particular version of Hell a lot of people want no part of as the principal actor. So I would honestly question “Why are you jumping in straight away to run for President when you have made zero motion to be a principal candidate in a campaign since like… ever?”
In terms of motivating the base, I mean the campaign and associated groups were literally building the physical infrastructure to start running this operations once the nomination was settled, but now everything is hung up in the air until the nomination is formally settled because some people insist it’s an open question. And hey, it might be an honest open question given the particular pressures brought to bear; but I’m inclined to believe Biden until he and only he says otherwise. Tired of these palace intrigue games with anon-sources and aides.
delphinium
@raven: Nope just realize that for decades now that the media has their thumb on the scales for Republicans and maybe it’s best not to feed the fire by continually bashing our candidates in public. Which can lead to polling being lower for our candidates. No reason why things can’t be hashed out privately.
Unless you think that what the media says day after day has no impact on public perception?
The Thin Black Duke
@Martin: I dunno what to tell you, Martin. From my POV, Biden has been fine doing interviews and speaking in public after that meaningless debate, but if (white) people refuse to let go of the narrative that he’s a doddering old fool, there’s nothing Biden can do to change their minds. The goalposts are constantly being moved. And it certainly doesn’t help that too many Democrats who refuse to go on the record are gutless punks who are more scared of Dr. Ross’s op-ed in the NYT than a 2nd Trump administration.
But this is a pointless argument anyway: you’ve made your decision, I’ve made mine. I just have to hope that Neal Postman wasn’t right.
schrodingers_cat
@Martin: Biden-Harris is our best bet to keep fascism at bay. There was a primary process. 14.5 million voted for Biden. Despite the debate, he is the best candidate we have right now.
Martin
IT DOES NOT MATTER. If there is that much contempt for Biden, and the situation is unable to be resolved that’s the only justification needed to remove him from the ticket.
Fairness is not relevant. I don’t know why people keep making this argument as a defense for Biden. If the deck is that badly stacked against him, then throw him out for a better candidate.
I don’t think the deck is stacked that badly. But I do think the media evaluate Biden as a politician and Trump as an entertainer, and that’s the rules of the game we’re stuck with and that’s what the candidate needs to overcome. They can do that by being a better entertainer or by pounding that observation home in a way that forces the media to respond, but you can’t just make excuses. And I see a LOT of excuses being made, rather than demands for the candidate to address the problem.
schrodingers_cat
@The Thin Black Duke: He has never liked Biden. This is just a new stick to beat him with.
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodingers_cat: People just don’t want a pony; they want an unicorn.
me
Right on cue. “Call With Harris Struggles to Reassure Major Democratic Donors” https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/19/us/politics/kamala-harris-donors.html
O. Felix Culpa
@rikyrah: He’s right, and it’s breaking my heart that we might go down that road.
delphinium
@The Thin Black Duke: And this is a huge part of the problem, for some people there is nothing Biden can do that will assure them he is fit to keep campaigning.
And maybe I am misunderstanding Martin and other folks here but how can anyone say that how the media reports things doesn’t impact public perception. If it didn’t, the “Biden must go Dems” wouldn’t be leaking to them.
MagdaInBlack
@me: And lookie there, paragraph #3, the “Anonymous One”, in the archived version
Kinda fun to see how far down they put that part.
Another Scott
@Martin:
You seem to be moving the goal posts.
You asked why he wasn’t up by 10 points in the polls.
One of the reasons is the relentless harping by the political press. 192 stories in FTFNYT. There’s very little that Biden can do to make them stop harping on his age, is there? Do you think that all he has to do is sit for another FTFNYT Editorial Board interview for the coverage to change?
He can and is campaigning. He has a strong record. He makes the case with voters.
The candidates are Biden and Trump.
All the rest is commentary.
Cheers,
Scott.
BR
@Martin:
I think it has narrowed. It is easy to run an anti-incumbent campaign in 2024 just like in 2020. Things are fine, but there are plenty of things that are not fine that people will complain about and I really don’t see any Dem increasing the margin.
me
@MagdaInBlack:
Yeah, there were 300 people on the call but “several” were not reassured. Just a dumb article.
BR
@me:
Yup, sounds like AOC was right: the donors want to get rid of Biden and Harris. Crazypants.
The Thin Black Duke
@delphinium: Other than sports and weather reports, the media hasn’t been trustworthy for a long time, and I think a lot of people are having trouble dealing with that. It’s a difficult habit to break.
Martin
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not making an argument that they aren’t the best bet. But we don’t know. And pretending the coronation was a democratic primary is just excuse-making. Everyone here has a list of who they think will be the 2028 nominee, who we think want to run for president, and none of them were on the ballot. They all sat down because that was the expectation by donors and the party. Don’t gaslight us by saying that democratic voters were given an actual choice (including the process of making that choice which includes debates and public appearances and all that). Biden or Philips was not a meaningful choice.
The ticket was a decision by insiders and donors, and you and the others here are not dumb enough to think otherwise. That the same insiders and donors are changing their mind is just the reality of the moment. We didn’t have a say in the primaries. We don’t have a say now. It’s not pleasant facing that the Democratic Party denied us a democratic choice, but they did, as they routinely do when there’s an incumbent.
That’s why I’m not invested in the outcome because it was and continues to be out of our control. The party and the donors are calling the shots, have always been calling the shots this cycle. What I will say is that whatever the ticket looks like, I’m behind them. I’m behind all of the downballot candidates whether they were dump Biden or protect Biden. I’m not going to participate in this exercise of shitting on Democrats.
One of the Many Jens
@gwangung: I’m sorry for your loss. Best wishes to you and your family – and please take care of yourself!
Gvg
@Martin: it’s too late. The rules of THIS game don’t really allow substitutions this late. It sort of looks like it does but it doesn’t. That is partly because all 50 states have different LAWS about how the electors are supposed to vote and even if they can be released, and if they vote for the VP, plus frankly, the electors are NOT a the voters and they don’t have a clue who our 2nd choice would be. The whole idea of electors is frankly undemocratic in case you hadn’t noticed. We can’t overlook the laws because the republicans will be looking for ways to sabotage our election. We can’t make adjustments because there are 50 different laws.
Then there are the different deadlines for ballots AND the rules for who qualifies. I don’t think any of the 50 states wrote laws quite dealing with a last minute party revolt.
And last there is changing the rules in the last quarter of the game just because you think your opinion is losing. People often think that is cheating or at best sour grapes. We bitched at Hillary in 2008 because she wanted to count things differently than the rules already said. She had not studied how caucuses worked as much as Obama. Well if the rules had been her way in the first place, he would have chosen a different strategy. The primaries were held. People voted. The rules are supposed to prevent powers from overriding the real votes. It used to be that way a century ago and people really resented it.
You don’t think Biden is a good choice. You are making arguments to support that BUT people already voted. Every election has points where it is too late. We find out someone is a crook. Whatever. The presidential election has a weird extra formality of delegates but really to be a democracy, we need to have it be citizen votes. We all thought Jan 6 was attempting to overt the election and changing the electors was bogus. You are advocating the same thing really. Those delegates should not be putting their opinions ahead of the voters, nor should you.
If Biden declines, Harris steps in after the election or inauguration. It didn’t happen before because not many people thought it needed to.
Jackie
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Exactly. Running for president on the D ticket, but being an Independent as senator is BS. I’d have much more respect for Bernie had he ran for the presidency as an I.
delphinium
@The Thin Black Duke: Yeah, I haven’t regularly watched the news programs in decades and have never watched any pundit shows except for some occasional clips so have a different perspective than a lot of others here.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Martin: This would be a big problem if Biden was running against Mitt Romney, but he’s not, the other guy is the guy who tried to fuck a helmet on TV last night.
Clearly, the debate was a mistake because there is no way to have rational discussion with loony, but everyone wanted their Thunderdome. Last night proved the correct answer to Trump is more Trump.
Otherwise, are we not all entertained?
rikyrah
Jennifer Taylor-Skinner (@JTaylorSkinner) posted at 8:17 PM on Thu, Jul 18, 2024:
Let me just state this plainly. The Vice Presidency is the highest position any Black woman has ever held in this country. The most powerful position any Black woman has held in modern history. If you usurp that by replacing Harris, not only will you unleash a fury hotter than a thousand suns, but our ancestors will haunt you until you hurl yourself into the Mississippi.
(https://x.com/JTaylorSkinner/status/1814107315580399630?t=X7kpDEvzDbj5dvCyV9-WGw&s=03)
tam1MI
@gwangung: My father passed in February and I am still raw with grief. Sending virtual hugs to you and all the good vibes I have.
Another Scott
@Martin: I’m having a tough time following your reasoning.
In 2020 there were 7 quasi-major Democratic candidates in the primaries.
Biden won.
Biden defeated the incumbent president – a very difficult task.
Why would it be expected that there would be half-a-dozen challengers for the nomination again? Has that ever happened??
“But Biden’s old! But polls say they want someone else!!”
And there was a guy – a sitting member of Congress – running to be younger successor. And he crashed and burned. Voters didn’t want him.
Voters picked Biden again. Millions of people turned out to vote for him in the primaries. If they didn’t want him, they could have stayed home. Having un-elected, un-accountable people try to throw out the actual voters wishes in favor of some magic beans, because of some whispering campaign and some media people’s desire for a horserace, is contrary to everything we’re supposed to stand for.
I’m not understanding your reasoning at all.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
PJ
@Martin:
But here’s the thing: the media will never like a Democratic candidate. Obama had a lot of charisma and was very smart, and was the beneficiary of a catastrophic financial collapse, and got through, but the media has been against every Democratic candidate at least since Dukakis. If contempt from the press is the only measure of who should step down, then Hillary Clinton should have given up the nomination, John Kerry should have given up the nomination, Al Gore should have given up the nomination, etc. No Democrat will ever be acceptable. If Biden steps aside, whoever becomes the nominee will be subject to an even worse flaying. The only thing that sticks to Biden is that he’s old, which is why the Russians targeted it and the press has run with it. But WE, THE VOTERS, don’t have to do that. We can say “enough!” to this bullshit.
M31
@Martin:
the only thing I somewhat disagree with here is that it’s the same insiders and donors that helped Biden run unopposed that are now trying to force him out. I seriously doubt that Jim Clyburn and other Black leaders are in the ‘force him out’ camp.
Some of them, for sure, given the power of incumbency. It’s not like it’s normal in any way to challenge the incumbent.
I was worried that Biden’s poor performance at the first half of the debate was his new normal, but was always ‘wait and see’ and he’s been fine since then, so I think the risk of him leaving is higher than him staying. I think better than ‘OK’ — I watched the Michigan rally, the NATO press conf, and the NAACP rally pretty much all the way through, and he was quite good. The verbal tics are stronger than in the past, partly I think in that Joe is abandoning a sentence in the middle when the stutter comes up, so sometimes he seems choppy, but even then the thought that comes through is coherent. I think he used to pause to get it under control, but that looks too much like he’s blanking out and what he did way too much in that debate, so he has a new strategy (I think that’s what’s going on, can’t be sure, of course)
Kathleen
@Ohio Mom: I was disappointed but not surprised. I’m stuck on the “well you can vote but if George Clooney or random Pod Bros don’t like candidate you voted for that got elected we’ll just get rid of him/her” vibe.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@raven:
Personally, I’ve restrained myself out of respect but oh do I ever disagree with him.
Enough said.
Gwangung
@tam1MI: Thank you. My grief is being a sneaky bastard that sneak up on me, saps my energy and stabs me in the gut when I least expect it.
NaijaGal
@gwangung: So sorry for your loss.
PJ
We will never know. That’s the way time works, it only goes one way. But we do have the past to look to, and last time, Biden and Harris beat Trump and Pence. In the four years since, more Trump voters have died off, and I do not believe that he has become any more popular. We know Biden can beat Trump because he’s done it. Any story about another candidate beating Trump is a fantasy, because there is no historical basis for it. It’s “vibes”, which is another word for bullshit.
Citizen Alan
@PJ:
It is July, and we have reached the point that I am having nightmares. I took a nap this afternoon and dreamed that I was awoken in my bed by an alert from Balloon Juice that Biden had dropped out, refused to endorse Kamala, and called for the gameshow mini primary thing. I woke up with a loud cry, and it took me several minutes to realize it was a dream.
Slightly_peeved
@BlueDWarrior:
it’s also known as a breakfast pie.
Slightly_peeved
@Martin:
the contempt isn’t for Biden. It’s for the Democratic candidate. Otherwise both Clintons and Obama (remember his pastor?) wouldn’t have had the same issues. The Murdochs – Keith, Rupert and Lachlan – have been doing this for over a century now. They’re right wingers pushing right wing narratives in bad faith.
I agree that we should be discussing about how best to counter media narratives. I just think we should rule out appeasement first.
Slightly_peeved
(Deleting duplicate comment)
Retired in Roswell
STOP IT! Joe Biden is the candidate no matter how much some of you would desire otherwise. Yes, Trump sucks and it will be awful if he wins. But replacing Biden as a candidate at this late date would have a boat load of unintended consequences. Those of you calling for an open convention may be insane. If anybody other Harris is chosen, you will lose votes you otherwise would have had. If it is Harris, the money changers in the temple may decide she isn’t the one either. Fairy dust and unicorns are NOT going to save you though tire rims and anthrax might.
What’s even worse, One of my own senators fed into this bullshit two days after a New York Times (yeah, I know) story about how a Hollywood type told Heinrich they wouldn’t be getting a dime unless they publicly called for Biden to step aside. And so Heinrich does. This guy is in a safe, secure seat. Since he is safe and secure, I will no longer be voting for him. Don’t worry. I won’t vote for his nepo-baby, hedge fund, carpetbagger, millionaire daughter of the last halfway decent Republican senator we had. I’ll leave the Senate section of my ballot blank. I hope the Democratic party doesn’t set itself on fire anymore than it has already and I WILL vote for whoever the Democratic Presidential candidate is. Funny that the one congressional person in this state who is most vulnerable (Gabe Vasquez) has kept his mouth shut. He’s my representative and as long as he doesn’t join the chorus, he has my vote. Sad to say, he would have my vote anyway since he isn’t safe and the alternative is worse.
GROW UP! Throwing more chaos into an already chaotic situation will NOT make things better. I realize that for any saying there is a counter saying. But let me throw out one anyway. “Don’t change horses in the middle of the stream.” Those of you who want Harris to take over, hang tight. I wouldn’t be surprised if Biden abdicates on January 21st. Wouldn’t that REALLY blow republican minds? And if you don’t want Biden OR Harris, please go away. You don’t belong. Peddle your chaotic bullshit about an open convention elsewhere. All these idiot politicians and pundits haven’t got a clue. They are in their own insular circles much the same as the FOX sheep are in theirs.
LOOK! It’s way past time to circle the wagons. I’m starting to feel like money and winning has become more important than principles. I expressed this in a message to Senator Heinrich’s office today. To quote another saying, “You dance with the person who brought you.”
But people, if you want to cut off your nose to spite your face (not another saying, please!), go right ahead. I’m with Mr. Cole on this one. I’m an old, white, heterosexual male who won’t starve if I have to replace my water heater. I made a lot of efforts to president proof my finances after 2008. I will survive another Trump administration as long as the bombs don’t go off and I keep my head down.
In my life as a semi-functual adult, I’ve voted McGovern, Carter, Carter, Mondale, Clinton B., Clinton B., Gore, Kerry, Obama, Obama, Clinton H., Biden. And I still belong to a union even in retirement. I hate, Hate, HATE that I’ve had to use the pie filter for some of the dropout enthusiasts. Guys, I get it. But belaboring the point with maybes and anectodal evidence is not changing any minds. And you wear an old man out.
Sorry to be so long-winded. Been mostly lurking since the Terry Schiavo days. Maybe commented three times during all these years, probably under a different nym each time. Love this blog but some of y’all are getting on my nerves. Then the Heinrich news set me off. Sorry again. Do what you want, but be careful what you wish for.
Peace and Love
NaijaGal
@schrodingers_cat: I think donors may have inadvertently stumbled upon a way to fracture the Democratic coalition that others will now exploit. The people who are utterly convinced that Biden can’t win but Kamala can, in spite of misogynoir, are so dismissive of the lived experiences of immigrants and people of color that I wonder how we’ve been in the same party for so long.
Citizens United has to be addressed if we win this fall. There’s too much at stake.
There’s the other problem that no one wants to really address and the media dances around (you’ve pointed it out). The majority of white voters in the US have voted for Republicans since the Civil Rights Act passed. Every Democratic president since then has relied on a coalition of a minority of white voters and a majority of voters of color. The public face of debate on the issue of Biden dropping out are people who as a group are not predisposed to vote for him. They say things like “Trump is so bad that a good Dem candidate would be running away with the election,” because they can’t honestly bring themselves to say “many of my family, friends, and colleagues are now fascist-curious and I don’t know what to make of it. Must be the Dems fault for not having a compelling message on inflation.” That way we never have to have a deeper conversation about the roots of Trump’s popularity with the majority of white people in the US.
Jay
@Gwangung:
I am sorry about that, it’s okay to grieve and grieve openly.
JoeyJoeJoe
@Lochnessmom: they may get to know Wilford Brimley as something other than the Quaker Oatmeal guy. They may not even know that . . .
dww44
@me: However you come down on the issue currently rending the Democratic Party to pieces, there is no denying the role that the NYT has played and continues to play in keeping it front and center. As a subscriber to various of their morning newsletters from back when I could read for free, they have some variation of “Biden must go” Infecting each of those newsletters every day for weeks. I should make a list but it is so obvious what they are doing. All their reporters and opinion writers have participated in the effort to undermine Biden.
The question is Why? Why are they so invested In taking down Joe Biden? It’s not a matter of fairness; it’s a matter of something just doesn’t add up. There’s something rotten in our culture when the preeminent newspaper decides it’s gonna destroy the presumptive nominee of the Democratic Party. Is it really an oligarchic takeover of all the levers of power in the country? It cannot be that they love Trump. It’s that their first loyalty is to themselves and their money and power. Yes, other media arms are now piling on but the Times had this agenda long before. There is something fishy afoot and it does not bode well for the party that supports real democracy.
Sister Golden Bear
@gwangung: I’m so sorry for your loss, and the other assorted headaches.
Sister Golden Bear
@eclare:
Have a little priest!
wjca
Um… You do realize that this can’t happen. Literally can not. Because the nominee will actually be selected by teleconference a couple weeks before the in-person convention. (You can thank Ohio’s Republicans for that.)
LNNVA
@NaijaGal: This is so true.
Odie Hugh Manatee
From the Great Orange Satan:
There you have to folks, our top donor ratfucking by using big $$$ to buy support for removing Biden. Just the look we need going in to November, Democratic politicians selling out our President for cash.
I’m ridin’ with Biden to the finish line and I hope he runs over this fucker on the way there.
wjca
@wjca: The good news is, that’s a couple weeks less of this step down nonsense.
Another Scott
@dww44: Made me look…
ReutersInstitute.Politics.OX.AC.UK (from February 2014):
(Emphasis added.)
He wants FTFNYT to be like Spotify or Netflix. Gimme your CC number! That kinda explains a lot, doesn’t it??
The arrogance there in the second excerpt is kinda astounding. They decide what readers should think, because – say – people looking for fact based, reality based, stakes – not – odds reporting on US politics is somehow dangerous.
Grr…
Oh, and as of today they claim 10M subscribers. I doubt they’ll get to 15 next year unless they give them away.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus: Cry havoc and release the drag queens!
Old School
@Martin:
I assume you’re not on social media because the Biden Twitter account brings up Trump’s addled-ness constantly.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Another Scott: “When you buy the New York Times, you’re not buying news…”
No shit, Slutzborker. Not one drop of news in your birdcage liner.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Sister Golden Bear:
Make them Ru the day!
Sister Golden Bear
@The Thin Black Duke: Amen. Both in 2016 and now I’ve found who are friends and who are acquaintances. Likewise at this point, I’m like “The window is open for whenever you wanna come back off that ledge, I’ll talk to you then.”
Sister Golden Bear
@The Thin Black Duke: I’d like whatever he’s smoking because obviously he’s got a pipeline to the good shit.
kindness
The coup ‘Democrats’ trying to replace Biden (and Kamela) are trying to carry out is in bad faith. Democratic voters will revolt over a donar class thinking they can make the calls, ignoring all the votes that have taken place.
Don’t follow idiots. They lead poorly.
Citizen Alan
@BR: It is an article of faith among the MAGA crowd that Michelle Obama is secretly a man who has successfully hidden “his” gender for 30+ years. My RWNJ sister didn’t even understand why I was offended when she said that to me.
Gvg
@Martin: we don’t get to fall in love with the candidate in every single election. We always have to settle for someone enough other people can accept. We ALWAYS have to look around and be strategic. Biden is somehow kind of middle and unthreatening to enough people more than other democrats that he won and he still is the best bet. He is more reassuring than Harris to a few more percent of voters when we are on a hair thin margin.
There is no one else. You want a unicorn. Even if you could name one AND that person was willing, you will find that there would immediately be about a 6 way split that won’t settle down.
And you ignore all the explanations about laws, lawsuits, GOP ratfucking, and how people who already voting think of this throw their votes out.
This is nothing like getting rid of an elderly CEO.
Citizen Alan
@Martin: Talking about Michelle Obama running is about 0.01% more credible than talking about Taylor Swift running.
Martin
@Old School: How’s that working out. Breaking through with voters and the media?
Citizen Alan
There are no possible replacements for Biden who would not draw hatred from the MSM and the Oligarchs. And getting Biden’s scalp would only embolden them.
Citizen Alan
The Democratic Primary Process = a coronation.
Letting the Superdelegates pick the nominee on a Wednesday from a list of people who put their names in the hat on the previous Sunday = not a coronation.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Martin:
Probably a better chance of that than your theorycrafting Michelle Obama running…lol! That’s grasping at straws, not exactly a confident look going into an election.
Nothing you have said inspires any confidence in me of your being right about this. You just want anyone but Biden.
@Citizen Alan:
Call it blood in the water. If Biden drops out the feeding frenzy will turn to the replacement candidate to eviscerate them next.
prostratedragon
(After a nap …)
@MagdaInBlack:
And here I was thinking the whole thing overblown.
@raven:
Don’t give up yet!😗
Old School
@Martin: Careful now! Those goalposts almost hit me!
Citizen Alan
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Can someone post the address and phone number of WME? What’s the point of calling our reps and senators but not bothering to reach out to their owners?
tam1MI
@Citizen Alan: Finding out which celebrities the firm represents is another avenue that could be pursued. Ask them on social media if they are happy with what their agency is doing with money they generate for them.
The Lodger
@rikyrah: They are a DEI ticket if you think that stands for Dominant Ethnic Identity.
The Lodger
@BlueDWarrior: The combination of No Plan and Some Other Guy is no way to win elections.
KRK
Does anybody really think this would end if Biden withdrew from the campaign? That’s Fantasyland.
The national media wants to do anything other than talk about policy or the insanity of the Republican ticket. The national conversation will immediately switch to “Biden must resign the presidency: Discuss.” And Republicans are dying to have that torch passed to them. They’ll be everywhere demanding his resignation. Many will be disgusting about it, but others will be like the Tonya Harding Democrats and tell Jake Tapper with tears in their eyes how much they respect Biden as a colleague and value his years of service, but surely the Democrats wouldn’t cast aside a sitting president because of a few bad polls, surely there’s something much worse going on and so, regretfully, he has to go.
Day after day after day. Every Democrat is asked about it in every interview. Every Republican is allowed to talk about nothing else. And then many of the same folks on the Democratic side start saying it has become a “distraction” that is preventing Democrats from getting their message through and dragging their poll numbers down and all the normies think there must be something to it and how can Biden be so selfish to not see that the only way to defeat Trump is for him to go because surely then the matter will be settled and we can get back to normal campaigning….
And then the lawsuits start, seeking to roll back Biden’s executive decisions because “even elected Democrats agree” he wasn’t competent when the decisions were made.
KRK
@Gwangung:
I’m so sorry for your loss and pain. Be generous to yourself. Losing your mom is a big thing and it can hit you in unexpected ways and long after you think you’ve gotten used to it. I wish you joyful memories.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Citizen Alan:
It’s the William Morris Agency
9560 Wilshire Blvd .
Beverly Hills, CA 90210. 310-285-9000
Big Hollywood money, that’s for sure. One of our party’s Sugar Daddies.
Martin
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I’m not theory crafting. @BlueDWarrior offered up the name, and I accepted the hypothetical that even if a magic wand was waved and she was the nominee with a clear polling advantage, half this community would need to reject her due to her own arguments, plus I think that community would probably turn against her because I don’t buy that they are *that* committed to Biden. I think they’re anxious about the uncertainty swirling here and are trying to anchor that uncertainty in a definitively held position. And I get that. And just like we went through this shit in the 2008 primaries, a LOT of people burned their bridges trying to hold onto their definitively held position.
I think people digging their heels in, making bad arguments, offering up conspiracies, threatening to stop supporting Democrats (on both sides) does immense harm here. I think people are losing the plot a bit.
Martin
It wouldn’t be. And that hasn’t ever happened.
Sorry, I’m stuck in this cycle that I get stuck in here where nobody seems to understand my point, so I’m clearly not getting it through.
If you are going to make the argument that Biden is the rightfully democratically chosen nominee in this year of our lord 2024, in a primary between him and a guy who had a campaign event that _nobody_ showed up to. Like, zero people. Then you are lying. We had a thing that was called a democratic choice, but was not an actual choice. There was no question who the nominee was going to be. Anyone who might have been a viable alternative to the nominee refused to participate due to any of a variety of factors – control by donors, control by the party, not wanting to take a risky campaign in 2024 and have their 2028 shot completely undermined by the aforementioned groups, etc. I’m not arguing that a full-field primary was reasonable to expect. I’m arguing that what reality delivered to us was not a democratic choice, it was a Putinesque choice, and using THAT as your defense for why Biden shouldn’t be replaced is a shitty argument. That’s all.
I’m not saying there aren’t a TON of good arguments for why Biden shouldn’t be replaced. I’ve offered a bunch of them myself. But ‘we had a primary’ is a REALLY shitty argument to the level of being openly dishonest, because if you are arguing that people had a choice, when they didn’t have an actual, real, choice, that’s a lie designed to prop up an argument. And that’s what I’m calling out.
Voters didn’t pick Biden in 2024, because voters weren’t offered a real choice because the Democratic Party wasn’t interested in giving us one – they were interested in getting the incumbent to the general as unsullied as possible. I’m not even arguing that’s a bad strategy. I’m just arguing that’s what actually happened.
The problem is that despite that effort, the candidate got sullied on the way to the general. And the process for dealing with that – having a real primary choice where we can have a proper say – didn’t actually happen. So the mechanism for dealing with this situation was thrown out the window, and what’s left is what we’re now getting – a backroom fight. Leaning on polling to justify that fight is as valid as anything else at this stage.
If Democrats wanted to have a functional primary every 4 years, they could endeavor to engineer that. Neither political party is interested in that, and the result is an electorate that in 2024 to a large degree feels like they have candidates they never really had any say in, and these people are then blamed for the low enthusiasm. Well, no shit. The enthusiasm comes from having agency. It’s why even the folks that didn’t back Biden in 2020 turned out in the general – it was a fair process, we got a say in a slate of good candidates, we got to see how everyone would perform and we’ll back the winner of that. Why does enthusiasm seem to be down in 2024? I wonder.
And ‘this is donors’ forcing Biden out. It’s party insiders forcing him out. Who the fuck do you think provided the guardrails to ensure that Biden didn’t get a serious primary challenger? It’s the same people on both sides of this story. You aren’t pissed at them for pulling the strings, you’re pissed that they’re pulling the strings in a manner that makes you uncomfortable. You were fine with them pulling the strings in a way that gave you certainty – that made sure nobody was asking any difficult questions about Biden’s age, about his Israel policy, and so on.
This is a theme with me – was back when I was writing about Covid, about campus protests, etc. Good process yields good outcomes. The problem is good process is hard, often unpopular, often expensive, and requires that you put your biases away. When you abandon your good process, you can’t rewind time when shit goes off the rails to do the process over. You’re now in a whole new state and need a whole new process – one that you probably didn’t do shit to prepare for. You’re now making shit up on the fly – which is what happened in the response to Covid, happened in response to campus protests. And that’s where the Democratic Party is now. It sucks. We shouldn’t really be surprised, though. It’s the risk we run every time we have an incumbent, and usually it works out, but it won’t always.
WereBear
BREAKING NEWS … Biden staying in
Telling Dr Allan Lichtman via his aide: “polls are fickle”
https://youtube.com/shorts/-SWS1sv-fUE?si=a5OJgyZdVq2ewQHv
I have posted this for the fourth time in this thread alone. No response at all?
Which makes me think no one is listening to each other, any more.
Jay
@Martin:
While I get what you are saying, any Registered Democratic Party member, can run in the primary. Only one did, the Icecream Billionaire, and got curb stomped for being clueless.
Nobody else ran, for reasons.
Votes were taken, and 14 million Democratic Party Members chose Biden.
That is way more democratic than the many, many, many races where there isn’t even a challenger, (see down ballot Red States).
There is no process, (other than big donors) to draft some Joe Blow to run. There is no lottery where the Democratic Party draws membership slips from a blind box, and suddenly, Mary Sue Ellen and 10 others are “drafted” to run.
There is no official “Recruitment Office”, (there is an unofficial one, but all the candidates noped out).
The Democratic Party Membership overwhelmingly chose President Joe Biden to run.
The Democratic Party got 2, 2, 2 applicants for the job, and according to the members of the Democratic Party, the best candidate got the shitty, shitty, shitty job.
Ramalama
@WereBear: yeah!
Another Scott
@Martin: There’s a process to run in the primaries. You can’t force people to do it.
There’s a process to vote in the primaries. You can’t force people to do it.
Your counter-factual world where viable (as determined by whispering donors and anonymous insiders and GQP pundits and publishers??) candidates challenge incumbents doesn’t exist.
Biden followed the process in 2020 and won the most votes. Biden followed the process in 2024 and won the most votes. Arguing that some different process would somehow prevent whispers and mumbles and rumors of panic seems to ignore all the infrastructure of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. (I’m old enough to remember hard-fought primaries where there were months of complaints from the losers about the process being “rigged” because the math of having fewer votes was somehow unfair.)
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Chris Johnson
@Hoodie: Let’s see if you engage honestly, as you’re raising good points that have good answers ready for you.
So the reason AOC issued qualified raves for Joe Biden is largely Gaza/Palestine, and it tells you a lot about where she’s at. AOC and the Squad are surprisingly well versed in how politics work, and she dropped one quote that reveals more than you’d think. She’s guaranteed to be losing sleep over the genocide in Gaza, and is turning to Joe Biden to lead the American government to stop it.
And for whatever reason she’s up to speed on why we all can’t clap for Tinkerbell and make that happen.
I don’t know the details, and maybe we don’t get to: depends on to what extent they’re political and what extent they’re logistical. I do know AOC would not roll over for an argument of ‘we have to be this way so we can dominate the Middle East’, so I’m guessing a combination of logistical and political reasons. It’s a messy situation that could easily boil over in various directions.
The quote that gives away AOC’s understanding is this: “the job is complexity”. She’s correct. In saying that, she doesn’t let slip what’s being juggled in the Middle East, but between that and her certainty that she’s 100% backing Joe Biden KNOWING that she would like more aggressive action against Israel’s crimes, she absolutely is up to speed on what’s really going on, and aware of Biden’s path towards resolving it, versus what Trump and his people might do.
And that’s why you get a nuanced take out of AOC. She would like simpler answers, and she would like to see Joe act more directly against what’s going on in Palestine. And she is acknowledging this pretty openly. And yet, in no way does that represent her looking to switch out Biden for anybody else, including for any hypothetical person who’d act as she would rather act.
The job is complexity.
Another Scott
@WereBear: I haven’t watched the clip or commented on it because it isn’t news, IMHO. Biden said on July 8 (and probably earlier) that he’s not going anywhere.
The candidates are Biden and Trump.
😃
Cheers,
Scott.
Chris Johnson
@KRK: Good thing THAT ain’t happening.
That is exactly how such an event would be handled and we all know it. You’ve nailed it to the Nth degree.
Again, good thing THAT ain’t happening. It would be the stupidest move imaginable. I particularly like that you spotted how suddenly everything that’s happened in Biden’s ENTIRE administration would get sued and appealed up to the Supreme Court on the grounds that the party admitted Joe was a cretin who could not think…
Extra bonus bullshit: 100% guarantee the media generates a giant scandal over whether Joe’s literal driver’s license should be taken away from him.
Chris Johnson
@WereBear: Trolls won’t respond to that because it undermines all their arguments, including the idea that maybe Biden will be rattled enough to forget polls mean shit this far out (and perhaps, in general, in 2024).
I know I went and watched Lichtmann’s video and was happy to see it. Don’t mind watching it four times. Good for him, and for Joe’s team, and for us.
All the guy’s Keys really are, is ‘don’t be stupid and don’t be a tyrant and don’t kneecap yourself’. Always good advice, and you don’t get those keys by striving for power, you get them because you tried to be a good leader.
Denali5
I wish Democrats would focus on what is driving the Republicans to support TCF; it is all about the money-they want to keep their tax cuts. Of course, no one likes taxes – but don’t we understand that everyone needs to pay their fair share?
Secondly, Democrats need to plan better. The idea of switching candidates at this point is not workable, as has been pointed out. It is a sure loser. We need to be behind our good, not perfect candidate.
burritoboy
Martin’s thesis here is less than compelling – putting on my civic humanist hat now: It is by no means unusual that there can be not very competitive elections in democracies all the time. It is, indeed, quite typical: that’s what it means to be part of a coalition – almost all times you will not get an ideal candidate, but rather only have a single one whom you have seen in action long enough, and have a track record that is just sort of attractive enough that it is sufficient to get them over the finish line (in your opinion.) If Martin was participating in local politics, he would know this quite well: once in a generation talents like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama are extremely rare, and almost never are available.
That means that there is little validity in the criticism that Biden didn’t have a strong opponent in the primaries of 2024. And it carries over to our current moment: we don’t even see anyone stepping up concretely NOW; we don’t see any of these proposed candidates building significant election efforts NOW either. And any proposed candidate besides Biden would need to be supreme organizational geniuses. Indeed, I would say that Bernie Sanders is probably the best placed to do that, and Bernie is precisely who the Dump Biden school is probably least willing to consider AND he clearly doesn’t want to run (nor, in my estimation, should he).
This nonsense of just stating various celebrities (Oprah! Michelle Obama! Taylor Swift! Gavin Newsom! Your Mom! ) is indicative of the dismissal of the importance of all and any concrete civic organization. None of these celebrities have much in the way of political organizational experience (excepting perhaps Newsom…..who’s repeatedly explicitly refused to run and has no experiences outside of California.) They’re just hoping the power of media celebrity can fix the obvious massive coalitional and organizational problems resulting from their Dump Biden effort ……which is just not being serious, and even not being political in a very foundational sense. The core of our republic is that a major part of what we do as (small r) republicans is working with others to find viable, actual concrete individuals that we can trust over long periods of time. That’s a central part of our republic – we’re not a direct democracy for very serious concrete reasons. And that means that we are necessitated to work through real individuals who all have flaws, not fantasy individuals. Martin can argue against those concrete reasons, of course, but that’s not a discussion for THIS moment in 2024.
Ruckus
@gwangung:
@WaterGirl:
gwangung, so sorry for your loss.
It is tough. All of my immediate family is past. I’ve written about some of them here before and the memories are still and always will be there. I am now the oldest in the extended families and am waiting on the service for one of my cousins, who past this year at 5 yrs younger than me. We get old, we experience the losses. The downside of living is that we all get to the end at some point.
Ruckus
@Hoodie:
As a voter who has voted for 54 yrs, because the voting age changed when I was a few days away from turning 21 and worked on campaigns prior to that and was born a democrat this is about as bad as it gets in politics. Partially because conservatives have, in my opinion gone nutso. SFB has proved he was absolutely, totally incapable of being president, by showing us who/what he is and isn’t capable of. And they seem to want him again. This country has come a long way in my lifetime and by that I mean a better long way, in so many parts of what a country is about, what it is and does for it’s citizens, ALL OF THEM. Is it perfect? No it isn’t, but then humans are involved. Good and bad humans. Is Joe Biden capable at this moment in time? YES HE IS. Does he have a great VP? Yes he does. This country has a shitty history of racism and sexism and in some parts that still exists, and given that humans are involved, I’d bet that will likely never fully change. One of my best friends was a gay, black woman. I say was because she died of sickle cell anemia. This world can be cruel to any living creature and every living creature has a beginning, middle and an end. But that end should not be from something that can be treated, or cured or because of humans being shitty. And this was.