UPDATE:
“I look forward to getting back on the campaign trail next week to continue exposing the threat of Donald Trump’s Project 2025 agenda while making the case for my own record and the vision that I have for America: one where we save our democracy, protect our rights and freedoms, and create opportunity for everyone. “The stakes are high, and the choice is clear. Together, we will win.”
=============
AOC’s live video was talked about last night and I had a chance to listen to it this morning. I want to post it, but with the caveat that President Biden’s campaign chair came out this morning saying that he is staying in the race. So if there was any wavering (and I don’t believe for a second there was, it was all media driven by unnamed source whisper campaigns) that question has been answered. So now is the time to come together and work our asses off to make sure there is unity.
It that means you call your representatives (I’ll be calling Bennett, Hickenlooper, and Neguse’s offices today) and demanding they come out in full support of Biden, it means talking your friends and family off the ledges, and it means we really, really need to move on from the in fighting here.
Here’s AOC:
View this post on Instagram
(here is a direct link if the embed doesn’t work for you and here is a twitter link if Insta doesn’t work for you. There is no youtube link yet)
And now we have a YouTube link:
==========
Here is Jen O’Malley:
Biden campaign chair Jen O’Malley Dillon reaffirms that Biden is staying in the race:
“We know that we’ve slipped a bit from the debate and we know that the president has to prove to the American people exactly what he believes. That he’s in this to win this. He can do this.” pic.twitter.com/5BJTgKB06O
— The Recount (@therecount) July 19, 2024
Today might be a good day to contribute $81 to the Biden campaign if you can/desire.
==========
Also, the PIE FILTER is a blessing. Here’s how to use it:
There is a cherry pie at the top of the comments. Click on it and it opens up a list of all the commenters in the post. Click on the one you want to pie. They will stay pied until you uncheck – across all posts.
Try and find some common ground in this open thread and don’t let the trolls hijack it. Ignore them, move on and talk with folks who want an honest discussion. Be kind.
It’s time to be energized, excited, and unite behind an excellent president.
zhena gogolia
Thank you, TaMara.
Steve LaBonne
Also Jeffries has come out with a clear statement in support of Biden. I think the “drop Biden” stuff is on life support, though the media will try to keep it going as long as they can.
TaMara
@Steve LaBonne: That is good to hear. I suspect we are going to hear a lot of folks that it was whispered they were asking Biden dropout, are going to come out pretty strong after the weekend.
Omnes Omnibus
Jeffries came out strong today.
ETA: Beaten by Steve LaBonne because looked for the link. Darn you to heck, Steve.
BarcaChicago
Thank you. Time to come back to reality and win this election in November. My circles of Democratic friends and acquaintances will be very relieved to get on with it, because they’ve seen this as a crazy distraction aimed at weakening the Democratic Party and our chances of winning the election. Onwards.
Westyny
Thank you, TaMara. I’m in on Biden/Harris all the way. It might be our last chance to shake off the influence of mega-donors on our own side.
bbleh
It’s time to be energized, excited, and unite behind an excellent president.
Booyah! Donate, volunteer! And when the time comes VOTE, and make sure all your goodthinking friends do too!
And yes, please, let us move on from stale arguments on which there is very little new to say and even less that we can affect, and which serve only to divide and dispirit us. There’s WORK to be done. Aux barricades!
WereBear
Where I started and where I still am.
different-church-lady
Oh, look, there are still people who know how to do this.
TaMara
@WereBear: Same. But yesterday, pre-disaster speech, I had some dark moments.
West of the Rockies
Yes, whispered, unnamed sources should not necessarily be trusted. If BHO has something to say, I expect him to say it directly to the American people.
One crap night does not negate 3.5 excellent years.
different-church-lady
Old School
@Omnes Omnibus:
Since I’m not registered on BlueSky, I tracked down a link for others in the same boat.
WereBear
@TaMara: Oh heck yeah. Disinformation at its finest.
Which is why there was panic and I get it.
I called President Biden’s 988 number (also chat and text!) and vented to someone nice.
And I said I appreciated the service.
Steve LaBonne
I’m just going to say it- most members of Congress are not all that sharp. They’re merely slightly above average amongst the crowd of local politicians from which they emerged. Rep. Ocasio-Cortez is a shining exception- she is really smart.
TaMara
I do have to say this. I was never a big AOC cheerleader, nothing against her or anything, I just couldn’t get past all the noise around her (MY BAD). But this little fireside chat has really brought me around. And from what I hear, she does this often and they are always thoughtful.
Omnes Omnibus
@Old School: Thanks for doing that.
different-church-lady
Get your cats in a herd, Jeffries.
different-church-lady
@TaMara: I have a default distrust of any politician who gets treated like a rock star. But she’s really showing she has the smarts to go with the flash.
ETA: Let me refine that: I don’t distrust the politician; I distrust the hero description that’s being presented by the fan base.
bbleh
@TaMara: I think we ALL did. Unlike some, we are not cultists. But I had and have confidence in Biden to make correct decisions, and in the people close to him (Dr. Jill, Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries, his Three Wise Men, et al.) to tell him what they think and what he needs to hear. And I’ll continue to support the nominee (now and hopefully finally! Biden), because MY dark moments come when I think of what would happen if the Felon and his Nazi Mini-Me were to take office.
Chris
I used to semi-dismiss AOC the same way I did Warren,* as “she’s a fantastic voice for the left, but because of that she’s probably also not mainstream enough to be President; also, quite frankly the left needs all the strong voices it can get, so do we really want to lose one?” So I used to figure I really like her and I want her to stick around for a long time, but I don’t think she’s President material.
This last month has convinced me that, fuck that, she’s absolutely President material, and probably the strongest one in the party right now. She hasn’t been acting the way a voice for the left or any individual faction would; she’s been acting like a party leader, at a time when very few people are willing to step up to that plate. Maybe she should wait another decade before taking another shot at the White House (assuming there are still shots to take by then), but I want her there some day.
* Given the identity of those two people, of course, I also allow the possibility that me dismissing them too easily was just latent sexism on my part. I’m a guy, after all. Besides, even if I wasn’t, the political system is pretty much shot through with double standards in that respect.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@West of the Rockies: No drama, with or without Obama.
Steve LaBonne
@different-church-lady: What really impresses me is that she could easily have let that go to her head, but didn’t. After a few early missteps she has buckled down to work, learned her trade thoroughly, and become a formidable politician. We need more like her.
Mousebumples
Good suggestion! Thanks!
Omnes Omnibus
@TaMara: I have not always agreed with her views, but I have always been impressed with her political talents. I was talking to Valdivia last night about how I look forward to an AOC vs Jasmine Crockett primary in a few years (right now, I’d vote Crockett). She suggested that it needed a “Jewish boy.” Goldman, maybe?
Mousebumples
@TaMara: thanks for Front Paging this. I have grown in my admiration of AOC. I think she has learned from her time in Congress, and I’m excited to see what she does in the future.
different-church-lady
@Steve LaBonne: “Willing to do the work” is something I’m not seeing out of a lot of other politicians right now.
RaflW
A Dem strategist posted a video this morning of Hakeem Jeffries plainly saying Biden “Is our nominee” and “has the vision, I believe, the ability, the capacity, and the track record to make a case to the American people that will result in us being successful in November.”
See it on Threads. I’m going to assume this is from today and not old? Hopefully Vince Monroy is forealz.
Archon
@different-church-lady: Agreed, I don’t envy the position Jeffries is in especially if the donor class is extorting the Party, but it’s time to show real strength here. Sometimes that involves disciplining people who aren’t willing to tow the line.
One thing I would consider is going public with these threats of rich people abandoning the entire party and making their peace with fascism unless they dump Biden.
Josie
Thanks for posting this, TaMara. I listened to it earlier this morning and was happy to see that she thought as I do about the whole mess. She is so sharp and I have been really impressed with her logic and presentation of her thoughts. I also called President Biden’s White House number to beg him to stay in and just called Leader Jeffries’ number and left a message of thanks.
Back to post card writing.
RaflW
Also, fellow Squad member (and my M.O.C., who I’m not a big fan of but will hold my nose for and vote today in the MN primary) Ilhan was messaging yesterday calling out the anonymous ‘sources’. She was pretty blunt that they need to decloak or STFU (not her exact phrasing!).
TaMara
@RaflW: I can’t embed threads yet, but here it is from twitter
blindyone
I think it’s ride or die time, and I’m riden’ with Biden. I’ve read the back and forth here (relentless, exhausting back and forth) and I still think he is our best option.
Chris
@different-church-lady:
I think this is a blind spot for a lot of smart people who’re politics junkies, especially among liberals: there’s an instinctive fear that any “rock star” candidate might be all flash and no substance; that because they’re able to fire up an unusually large number of people to an unusual extent, that must mean they’re show horses rather than work horses.
And I’m not dumping this on you and TaMara, I’m saying this very much for me, because I had the same fear when Obama rose to power, to the point that I ended up pleasantly surprised by how much I liked his presidency.
delphinium
@different-church-lady: Right? I had contacted his office earlier asking him to support Biden and will contact them again to express my thanks.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@RaflW: Exactly. If Biden gets dumped for some random alternative, any Democrat who was silent through this process should be looked at as a conspirator.
different-church-lady
@RaflW: They heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another…
Scout211
I’d like to think that this period of challenges will only make the Biden-Harris team stronger. So many times the incumbent just walks through a campaign and has no challenges. This has been a huge challenge but hopefully it will lead to a stronger campaign and better messaging.
me
So Martin Heinrich joins the backstabbers after getting threatened directly by a rich donor. What a pathetic coward. https://bsky.app/profile/glegum.bsky.social/post/3kxnjr35tuh2o
Bex
@Steve LaBonne: Heard that Bill and Hillary Clinton have been telling people support Biden. Hope they will make it public.
HeleninEire
I am relieved. The chaos with removing Biden would have been insurmountable.
Also relieved that my computer is finally working. We were hit with the crazy cyber thingee. I got to work at 7:15 and finally got access at 12. I work in an organization with 900+ employees. The IT crew had to go to everyone’s computer and manually fix the problem one employee at a time, as a universal fix was not available. I was (appropriately) triaged pretty low!
Happy Friday, everyone!
Chris Johnson
@RaflW: Good, not surprised that another Squad member would be the proper voice for that.
The narrative that ‘evil anonymous Dems are actually sabotaging Joe Biden therefore he’s doomed and should surrender’ is DEFINITELY aimed at leftists, who tend to mistrust corpo-dems anyhow. Omar has more credibility with that crowd than most, so she and AOC are good voices for addressing it.
She’s absolutely right: you cannot put any stock in ANY unsourced anonymous gossip, no matter who it’s gossip about, when it’s coming from the people who are telling you Trump is statesmanlike and pivoting to unity.
100% safe for AOC and Ilhan to demand the miscreants reveal themselves if they know the miscreants do not, in fact, exist, and yet the stories keep on coming. They can’t put out on-the-record quotes because they CAN’T put out such quotes. They don’t exist.
UncleEbeneezer
My congresswoman, Judy Chu has been amazing for years but hasn’t come out and openly spoken up on behalf of Biden. I just called her office and told them I’m a constituent who also ran an Indivisible group that endorsed her and she even spoke at our post carding parties in 2018 and 2020. She’s been great about celebrating Biden’s achievements at any turn, but now it’s time for her to proactively show her support of our candidate and President. Enough of this bullshit. Time to Man/Woman/NB Up for Joe and Kamala!
Hungry Joe
As promised yesterday. This will be a daily comment — to inspire me and (I hope) some others. My Postcards to Swing States tally:
Yesterday — 14
Running total — 19
Archon
It also wouldn’t surprise me if the donor class overstepped and threatened Jeffries that they will withhold funds unless they dump the entire ticket and go to an open convention. AOC basically said as much.
So in that scenario Jeffries absolutely should not give in and would be better off going on record giving public support to Biden and Harris
Chris
@blindyone:
It’s not just that he’s our best option, it’s that there are still literally no other options. Nobody in the Dump Biden caucus has done anything to acknowledge the enormous problems involved in replacing Biden and what their plan is for getting around them. Every response is either “assume a can opener,” or whataboutism, or some form of “well, that’s not my job.”
Ukai
The folks who dropped in here imploring Biden to drop out because of a bad portion of a debate and their reliance on polls that lost credibility after they whiffed on the supposed red wave of the 2022 midterms, all the while not fully appreciating the logistical challenges associated with changing the ticket, remind me of GIR from Invader Zim singing his Doom song.
GIR sang his song for six months. It would be a special kind of hell if we had to put up with that kind of echolalia from the drop-Biden people here for the same duration, but, hey, we got through four years of Trump with focus and effort. If we can put in the same kind of work (and use the pie filter), we can withstand their insubstantial screeching and prevent another Trump presidency.
Steve LaBonne
@me: From the start this nonsense has been about techbro/Hollywood money guys wanting to keep their Trump tax cuts and not wanting regulation of AI and crypto. The idea that they would want to replace Biden with Harris is a touchingly naive fantasy.
Scout211
Biden statement: NBC
UncleEbeneezer
I always loved AOC’s passion and policy goals, I just questioned how well she would get-in-line with our party and its’ candidates, when they weren’t totally aligned with her preferred policies. I was wrong. She has been really great, especially through all this nonsense. She’s done the high-wire act perfectly without ever throwing Joe under the bus. She shows that you can be VERY critical of the party but still loyal to it, when it matters. And that’s a great model for future, progressive candidates on how to operate not just for likes on social media. Well done, by AOC.
Mousebumples
@Hungry Joe: thank you for postcarding!
Citizen Dave
I think AOC is great. She put the work in and is articulate. But, I made it through 20 minutes. How long is this video? Having serous Rachel Maddow flashbacks from when I had cable. I burst out laughing when, 10 or so minutes in she says “That’s point number one.”
different-church-lady
@Chris: Let’s assume (god help us) Biden’s been in decline and everyone’s been secretly worried about this all along.
The time to convince him to step aside and come up with another plan was AN ENTIRE FUCKING YEAR AGO.
I’ve been saying this in various ways for a while now: I don’t know what’s real, and I don’t know what’s best, but I do know that this is unfolding in the stupidest goddamned way possible. It’s like we just decided to start taking all our shots on our own goal.
CaseyL
I am hoping this is a watershed moment when we tell the extortionist megadonors to take a long walk off a short pier.
Josie
@Hungry Joe: I will answer you every day. Maybe others will join us. I am up to 36 even as we speak. Will do more this afternoon.
E.
@Hungry Joe: Keep it up brother! Fight and win.
UncleEbeneezer
@Chris: True but “best option” is a much more positive framing, imo. I think we would all do well to abandon “stuck-with-him” framings and show that we are actually excited to vote for him. I am. And I don’t mind saying it. Not because he’s some sort of magical candidate (I’d be just as excited to support Harris) but because he’s a great candidate. Full stop.
mali muso
Agree with the sentiments expressed my many here. I underestimated AOC, but she has shown ability to learn quickly, speak boldly and authentically and to show character and leadership. After her initial call for support for Biden, I donated a small amount to her campaign and have been impressed with the quality of the emails they send. Communication skills are going to be crucial for us as a party going forward, so I’m glad to see young talent like hers and hope it is rewarded.
different-church-lady
@UncleEbeneezer: No no no, you don’t understand, being true to your authentic doom-laden self is far more important than winning elections.
ssdd
@different-church-lady: 100%. This drip drip drip of a different congresscritter coming out every couple hours to call on Biden to drop out needs to stop, now.
Old School
@Ukai: I was not expecting to see an Invader Zim reference here.
Well played.
ArchTeryx
Beautiful sentiment and one I am wholly with, for what it’s worth (probably nothing). The wanking by the senior members of the party, from Obama down to Hakeem Jeffries, needs to just stop. Here, and now. Do you want to win, or do you want to end up in prison or a death camp, people! Biden is not leaving and he’s your best chance. Quit being driven before the media, stop the stampede, and get behind your f’n candidate!
Mr. Bemused Senior
❤️ [in honor of TBone]
Splitting Image
@different-church-lady:
I think that if there really were concerns about Biden in the Democratic party, it would have shown itself with a candidate or two laying the groundwork at the appropriate time. That is, as you said, over a year ago.
The fact that the concern came on all so suddenly the minute the primaries were over says to me that it is entirely a media thing, which is to say: Republican ratfucking.
Some concern over the debate I can understand, but the deluge that we all saw would have come even if Biden had absolutely killed that night. The quislings simply would have waited for the COVID diagnosis to make their move, or if not that, then something else. The Democratic Party needs to be in disarray for the Republicans to win, so that is always going to be the goal.
UncleEbeneezer
@Hungry Joe: I’m just trying to decide if I want to focus my postcard efforts on local (CA House races) or Swing States. I suppose I could do a mix of the two.
bbleh
@Chris: this indeed! It’s another version of Joe Biden vs. Joe Perfect. Joe Perfect is (1) not available as a possible Dem nominee and (2) not the Republican nominee. It’s an actual CHOICE between Biden with his assets and liabilities and another candidate with his/her assets and liabilities, and to focus only on Biden’s liabilities and/or someone else’s assets — whether that someone else is another Dem or the Felon — isn’t a serious argument.
@Steve LaBonne: this, I think also with some assist from some of the finance community. And the casual assumption of even the less crazy “Joe Must Go” folks that Harris would “of course” replace him were he to step aside is equally unserious. (The fantasy of a “blitz primary” or an “open convention” is just outright ludicrous.)
TaMara
@Scout211: I just updated the post with that at the top. important as it is.
Eolirin
@UncleEbeneezer: Ever since she fired that really problematic campaign manager, she’s been really good. Prior to that there was some weirdness. I think deliberately distancing herself from the Justice Dems was a really big part of her evolution.
UncleEbeneezer
@different-church-lady: You can’t Blackmail!!1! me into your GroupThink!, lol.
Eolirin
@ArchTeryx: Jeffries at least is saying the right things.
TaMara
@Citizen Dave: I listened to it in segments. It’s an hour – and from what I can tell, this is her usual chitchat with her followers. It wasn’t necessarily going to be a viral video
John Revolta
@me: @Steve LaBonne: This. To my mind the big drivers behind all this crap are the money boys who want the Trump tax cuts renewed next year and who are pissed off at all the new funding Biden is giving the IRS. You know, the people who own the media. And this is what AOC is talking about when she says that all the “replace Biden” talk she’s hearing is coming not from voters but from donors.
narya
I’ve been talking my 89-year-old mother off the ledge for three damn weeks; she has been saying that Joe was “too old” for MONTHS. While she is computer-literate, she does absolutely NO social media. (She loves Harris, btw, so would be perfectly happy with that.) I finally said this morning, are you going to vote? (knowing the answer). Of COURSE she is. So I’m going to focus on that with her: go vote, and make sure your Democratic friends do, too. She’s in PA, so their votes will be important (and she has never, and will never, vote(d) for a Republican).
Omnes Omnibus
I think this from Magdi Jacobs touches on something important. The calls for Biden to step down are very clinical. They ignore the passion that is necessary to win elections.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mr. Bemused Senior: Please don’t encourage her.
jefft452
“Today might be a good day to contribute $81 to the Biden campaign”
I would but I sent $81 yesterday
TaMara
trollhattan
In which I become Dylan Thomas, corresponding from the midst of a continental heatwave.
Completely relatable.
Today’s Letter of Note
dimmsdale
I call them the Biden Backstabbers, and I’ll remember their identities for a long, LONG time. I came across this thread as I was teeing up an irate call to Schumer about getting behind Joe “or else,”* and I’m relieved to see so many on the thread feel somewhat similarly. If the Biden Backstabbers got their way, A) we’d lose the presidency because B) an oligarch-endorsed Democratic nominee would cost the party so much unanimity, energy, and essential turnout spirit that a Dem loss would be baked in, and C) wholesale exit from the now-loser oligarch-controlled Democratic Party of nearly everyone I know, resulting in a splintering of the traditional Dem base. I’ll have to watch AOC’s video, but I already know this: if party bigshots think they can attach the party’s future to affluent donors, instead of “we the people,” they’re going to end up with ashes. (Anybody with a D in their voting record will end up in the gulag anyhow.) (*ETA ‘or else’ being, my vote goes to whoever primaries Chuckie)
TaMara
@jefft452: And we love you for it!
wjca
Since this is an Open Thread….
Trump has to be absolutely furious that the problem with Microsoft’s cloud has overshadowed his wonderful, beautiful acceptance speech. Wonder what outrageous thing he will come up with to get himself back in the headlines.
kindness
The people who are primarily pushing Joe to leave, the pundits, the big money donars and even the politicians are not the people who have voted for and sent money and helped Joe’s campaign. When this is over in the next term, those nitwits will get their due
I’m seeing many fewer of the pied folk in the comments. Go figure. Maybe the Crowdstrike knocked out the internet in Russia.
bbleh
@TaMara: yay! just threw another $25 at Joe & Kamala. (and they haven’t even asked yet!)
TaMara
I clicked over to NBC to find Joe’s statement. And it is buried in their “live feed” under a half dozen is Biden leaving posts.
I mean, WTactualF?
Tractarian
I’m sorry to say, but this is not going away. Top stories on Google News:
Biden’s family starts discussing his possible exit plan from the 2024 race
U.S. Rep. Marc Veasey, D-Fort Worth, asks Joe Biden to quit race
Many senior Biden officials believe he must drop out as he becomes increasingly isolated
More Democrats call for Biden to exit 2024 race as president vows to return to campaign trail
I listented to AOC (all 54 minutes!), and I trust her, but at some point, the back-stabbing and defections, day after day, become too much too overcome.
JaySinWA
Thanks, It helps to know how long you need to invest in a video. I tried to listen last night. People said listen to the whole thing but never said how long it was. I don’t see any indication of the length of the video in the playback window. For some reason I thought Instagram was short form only.
Tractarian
@JaySinWA: And if you reload, you have to start over from the beginning, and you can’t fast forward!
Here it is on Twitter https://x.com/yashar/status/1814172695166419325
Ukai
@Old School: Thanks. If I can work in a reference to the “Gaz: Taster of Pork” episode at some point, I may retire from Internet commenting altogether, lol.
TaMara
@Tractarian: Because link I provided wasn’t good enough. LOL
@Tractarian: Biden has said he’s staying. They can try all they want, but it’s a dead horse and I predict by Monday they’ll have to find a something else to chat about.
Also this is why it’s imperative to call your Reps to get them out in front of the media to counter all of this.
bbleh
@Tractarian: it will NEVER go away completely, for all sorts of reasons, including the inability of some people to say they were in any way mistaken. (See also Trump voters, some LGM FPers.)
But keep in mind many of these stories were written days ago, before the Felon’s … um … speech, and before O’Malley’s and Biden’s remarks. It’s like the “analysis” of the RNC on the WaPo front page today: he had a Narrative and he was gonna push it, facts be damned.
Remember what happened after the Press Conference That Would Decide Everything? All of a sudden the stories almost disappeared completely. (Probably woulda stayed that way too, if a buncha techbro donors had kept their pieholes shut.) I expect it’ll happen that way again.
M31
lol just read that while Delta, American and other airlines had their computers completely shut down, Southwest was completely fine, because they are still running Windows 3.1
Eolirin
@Omnes Omnibus: I was having some thoughts along those lines recently. That the dump Biden folk are missing the intensity part of the equation. Even people who would prefer another candidate aren’t necessarily violently opposed to Biden. They’re scared, sure. Maybe think he’s too old to be able to fully do what he needs to for another 4 years, and that’s fair, whether it’s real or not. Though a lot of the concern is about how other people will vote or react. But the people who are against him being forced out would be livid.
It’s much easier to try to capture people lost to apathy because they’re not enthusiastic about their choices, you just need to convince them to vote against the other guy. But it’s really hard to get back voters that are furious with you.
Even if that 2/3rds poll on Democratic voters wanting Biden to step down is accurate, that 1/3rd that doesn’t will be very very pissed off. That’s reason enough not to do it. The 2/3rds are less emotionally invested and will more easily get over it.
tam1MI
We are not out of the woods yet, however, we can see a path. I myself plan to call Hillary Scholten and remind her that she is on record saying that if Biden decided to stay in, she would support him and that my vote hinges on her keeping her word.
jefft452
@Omnes Omnibus: “AOC vs Jasmine Crockett primary”
That would be a tough choice for me, I cant vote for both
trollhattan
@M31: If you look carefully at the front entry door, each SW plane has a 5-1/4-inch drive slot. Pilot puts the floppy in on entering before each flight, to boot the plane.
trollhattan
@jefft452: What about vs. Sonny Crockett?
“Solid choices, pal.”
HinTN
Contributed the perfect $81 to Joe. Absolutely loved the “fireside” chat from AOC. Thanks for posting this!
me
No shit? “Multiple leading Democrats tell CNN they feel caught in what one described as a “doom loop,” with every move to keep President Joe Biden in or push him out further destroying their chances against Donald Trump.” https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/19/politics/inside-president-joe-bidens-campaign/index.html
Xentik
@John Revolta:
One upside that has occured to me about this is that if the big money folks fail, take their ball and go home and we push hard for a win, we can break their grip on the party.
A win without their help would provide conclusive proof that their money is simply unnecessary.
HinTN
@trollhattan: 😂 Probably fucking true!
Chris
@dimmsdale:
Yeah, I’d be lying if I said that a lot of my reason for sticking with Biden isn’t how this factors in. If the precedent is firmly set that 1) the media can kneecap any Democrat, not only a presidential candidate but even a sitting President, simply by drowning the zone with bullshit like they have been for four years, and 2) the donor class can overthrow any Democratic President they want simply by blackmailing politicians into overthrowing him if they don’t approve of him?
There’s no coming back from that. This is not a Batman movie and Morgan Freeman is not going to destroy the Bad Thing after using it just once because No One Should Have This Power. Once they know that they have the power, they’re going to run completely wild with it in every election to come. This is the precise equivalent of caving to an abusive boyfriend/girlfriend because he’s screaming so loudly and you just want to get past this hurdle. You’re not restoring peace to the relationship, you’re teaching him that he can walk all over you any time he feels like it, and now that he knows it, he’s just going to do it over and over.
piratedan
Since this appears to be donor driven and not policy driven, it looks like this comes down to Donors fighting for control of the party so that they can be exempt from tax policy and working hand in hand with some dubious business interests (AI farms, crypto, etc) to get themselves a more “pliable” candidate.
Jeffries spoke today, Biden actually spoke last night but its been buried since it was a press release statement.
the game plan is still the same, money controls the inflection point or information dissemination and the MSM is in cahoots with that methodology.
I’ve contacted Grijalva and Kelly here in AZ, I urge everyone to do the same with their own reps.
It appears that just letting Citizens United sit is coming back to bite us (as we all knew it could, but we’re unable to reverse because money is so corrupting as a “voice”.
Lapassionara
@Tractarian: I disagree. After Trump’s speech (?) last night, there will be a different narrative that will emerge, this one focused on Trump and his weaknesses. We can do our part to help that narrative along, and can also help by calling our Reps (if Dems) or other Reps (thank Jeffries, for example, and AOC). They need to hear from voters.
Westyny
The old guard, which may include Pelosi and Obama at this point (who knows?) must really believe that in CU world their party really can’t compete without the mega donors. At they at same time, I don’t see how progressive legislation, like that which Biden has passed in his first term, continues to advance with them, unless they are enlightened. Which they are not.
Tractarian
@Lapassionara: I hope you’re right!
And I do think that, once the delegates vote and the nominee is formally decided, the party will unite and the narrative will change.
Three and a half months can feel like the blink of an eye, but in politics, it’s an eon….
schrodingers_cat
My new Twitter Header on bsky for those who don’t use Twitter.
Your vote is your voice don’t let anyone silence it. (Be it NP(via Schiff, Raskin and other Congress critters), Obama (Axelrod, Podcast Bros, Schor), NYT, or a former front pager on Balloon Juice)
The most infuriating thing about the push-Biden-out by elected Ds is the voter disenfranchisement of Biden voters. It was a hard slog for me to get the right to vote in this country. I don’t take kindly to those who want disenfranchise me. I don’t care if they have been commenting on BJ since its inception. They can fuck right off
If Ds throw primary process and primary votes in the trash to appease their donors, with what justification can I lead voter registration drives or do GOTV both of which I have done in the past. I cannot in good conscience do that. What these Congressional Bedwetter Caucus is suggesting is profoundly undemocratic.
Westyny
@jefft452: If you were a Republican you could.
M31
@trollhattan: lol the German Navy still uses 8-inch floppy disks, and the US intercontinental missile command stopped using then in 2019. Are they even manufactured any more?
mrstealyourcostcosample
@bbleh: you’re god damned right.
forward. how many times can the same question come up??
trump is crazy and beatable. biden has beaten him. WE have beaten him.
it’s joever, and I couldn’t be happier that we aren’t willingly beclowning ourselves with a blitz primary or whatever — the dump biden team had no plan worth a bucket of spit
Captain C
@Archon:
I’m sure it didn’t, but I’d love to imagine that it went down like this: “My offer to you is this: nothing. And I would appreciate it if you pick up the entire tab for the DNC, personally.” Perhaps with a little, “you should be glad that President Biden is an ethical man, who will not take advantage of his new ability to Crime under color of office to your disadvantage.”
Yeah, there are many reasons I would never (and should never) make it as an actual politician.
Xentik
@Westyny: It is hard to say what, if anything is really from Obama and Pelosi, but there is no doubt the ultra rich want their tax cuts. It’s basically policy NIMBYism. The moment it affects them they want it gone.
I remember during the run up to the 2020 primaries, when Warren was doing well and talking about reform and a wealth tax, FTFNYT put out an article citing “anonymous democratic donors” who said that if she was the candidate they might have to vote for Trump.
This is who these people are. They are only our allies when they get 100% of what they want.
Ishiyama
So, I knew Marc Pocan when he was a chubby 20 something on the Dane County Board; he has been fortunate riding the leftist base in Madison to higher office, but he just ended his career today.
Lily
Fwiw, Some anti-Biden arguments/attacks were also used in run up to 2016 and 2020. For ex, his damaging anti-busing legislation and currently ‘racism b/c of his age.’ And “Obama doesn’t want him.” “Obama didn’t endorse him in 2016.”
Shadi Hamid (Post editorial board member and columnist). On substack writes strongly against the Gaza genocide. His twitter this a.m.:
He preceded that with
(My sarcastic laugh)
M31
@trollhattan: “This is the captain speaking: sorry folks but we’ll be a bit late landing today, because of the turbulence the punch card stack tipped over and we have to resort them”
Maxim
@Citizen Dave: I couldn’t make it even that long. I have no patience for meandering videos. I need a transcript that I can skim to get to the actual meat of what someone is saying.
Lily
@Xentik: ‘Human rights and civil rights for the people on our side; not for the ones who oppose us.’
Cacti
AOC showing the same keen judgment she displayed in her Bernie for Dem nominee days.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Omnes Omnibus: spoilsport /s
Maxim
@Eolirin: I remember hearing shortly after AOC first arrived in Congress that she was spending time with Nancy Smash. I suspect AOC was more than smart enough to learn from a master.
Xentik
@Maxim: Here is an excellent summary thread someone posted earlier for those who don’t have time to watch.
John Revolta
THIS!!
Percysowner
Well, I ran a quick search on the Internet and now I have to yell at Sherrod Brown. I thought he was just being quiet about the whole thing but he has expressed Biden doubts. So I have to let him know that that’s really not acceptable to me and I live in Ohio and I vote. I’ve always thought he was one of the good ones. And I could trust him. I guess a close race is making him nervous.
WereBear
Democrats are desperate to win this year.
MAGAs pretend their lives are on the line.
So many of ours, are.
guachi
Also on the campaign call
“NEW: Biden campaign is having all staff call right now, according to a source familiar. Marty Walsh is speaking on it.
Campaign chair Jen O’Malley Dillon said on it, “When you give me polls, I’m going to give you direct voter contact.””
If you’re ignoring polling – a random sample of voter contact – in favor of whatever O’Malley is doing then your campaign is delusional. It’s like saying you’re winning because of yard signs.
Kristine
@UncleEbeneezer: The thing I recall is that she met with Biden last week or the week before, and came out afterwards voicing complete support. It’s just conjecture but I think she was Biden’s info conduit for the IG presentation. I think he trusts her. There are others that I don’t believe are held in the same esteem given their behavior these last few weeks.
schrodingers_cat
Dean Philips camp is associated with Pass The Torch camp
Chris
@John Revolta:
I mean, I’d love to be wrong.
tam1MI
This is why I was so passionate on this topic in earlier threads. This was about more than Joe Biden. To repeat what I said in an earlier thread: If they can do this to a candidate you dislike, they can do it to the candidate you like.
Kay
Trump up 5
New Mexico is now in play
Tick tock!
UncleEbeneezer
@schrodingers_cat: It’s really disgusting how so many people are willing to dismiss these concerns and effectively embrace the same Election Denial (screw the results!) that Trump peddles.
Chet Murthy
@Chris:
I feel like this is insufficiently appreciated: the enormous dangers of this moment. It’s not merely that “the media can kneecap any Democrat”. It’s that The Big Lie will have been shown to be fully-operational in America, a tool in the hands of the oligarchy. It will mean that we’ve lost our democracy, EVEN IF a Democrat is elected President in November.
I’m not gonna lie to myself and pretend that there’s no way Joe (the best President of my lifetime, goddammit) is gonna withdraw: he might. He. Might. But if he does, it’ll be because the oligarchy magicked it up with The Big Lie, with a full-court press for months and months, culminating in this last month of massive pressure via donors and the media. And if it works, it’s a really, really bad sign for America.
And again, that’s -independent- of the looming danger of TCFG.
WereBear
@Kristine: About the postcards… never got your email?
dearpammy2wayofcats.com
And I’ll be looking for it.
schrodingers_cat
@Chris: Yep this sets a very bad precedent. You might as well cancel the primaries completely if you are going to let Ezra Klein and anonymous donors dictate what the process should be.
Archon
@guachi: Let us know when you’re ready to move on.
schrodingers_cat
Posted from Twitter without comment.
@JewishWonk
Me: I don’t believe Joe Biden is senile. I believe that is a narrative developed by a hostile media that is relentlessly pushing it for their own self-interest
Anti-Biden people: What if I repeat those media talking points to you, but in a patronizing tone?
guachi
@Chris:
Donors are only now saying what voters have been saying for months and months. It is voters that don’t approve of Biden as a president or nominee.
It is not blackmail. No one is obligated to give politicians money.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Chet Murthy:
agree 1,000%. Joe not stepping down and saving America from this would be a net good and totally unappreciated.
huh.
last five words are basically the entire Biden presidency.
guachi
@Archon: Let me know when the Biden campaign is run by someone competent. Ignoring polls isn’t competent.
Maxim
@Xentik: Thank you!
Percysowner
Having a home computer, a work computer, my Iphone and my IPad access BJ is that I have to keep adding the same blankey-blank posters on every single one.
Steve LaBonne
@Percysowner: As an Ohioan I am willing to cut Sherrod a lot of slack (same with Tester). Our few red state elected Democrats know what they have to do to survive and we had better root for them.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Archon:
lmao NEVER.
they are still citing every bad Biden poll (New Mexico in play? …shit, ask Governor Kari Lake how being up 11 in Arizona worked out)
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Steve LaBonne: this. Biden has even said publicly and privately if red state Dems need to run against him they have his blessing.
Trump could NEVER.
I spent years in in Ohio (Cleveland / Dayton) in the 2000s. how did it swing so red??
trollhattan
@M31: LOL. [“Note to self: this time, number them in sequence using a bright-color Sharpie.”]
Splitting Image
@Chris:
I just want to join in agreeing with this. The news media and the rich donors cannot be allowed to get a scalp here.
Xentik
@Kay: Are you really the same Kay that used to put up truly thoughtful, measured front page posts on education policy?
If so, I know you are capable of taking the time to game out and articulate how replacing Biden would work.
Currently the rules of the Democratic convention imply that the second he steps out, we are consigned to a contested primary, one in which we won’t necessarily know who is in the running until the convention begins.
Please read through the summary above of AOC’s discussion of the issues with trying to replace Biden and explain how those problems would be handled.
Chet Murthy
@mrstealyourcostcosample: And yet, for all this, I think we need to be prepared to have our
candidateticket kneecapped and forced out. And IF (not when, but IF, I’m still optimistic on this count) that happens, we’ll need to support the replacement, as bitter as that will feel and be.I thought of an analogy: in France, the Left got their shit together and actually gained the largest number of seats in the Assemble’e Nationale. But I read that now the Left is having trouble sticking together, agreeing on who will lead, who their Prime Ministerial candidate will be, etc, etc. And hence, perhaps Macron’s “Ensemble” (or whatever his party is called this week — I’m so old I remember when it was La Republique en Marche) will retain the prime ministership. [I trust enough in Macron’s decency that I don’t think he’ll agree to a coalition with Le Pen]
We can’t allow that to happen here, even if the cost is electing some conservaDem.
Jesus what a bitter pill that would be.
Old School
The
trollslong-time valued commentators who are exhibiting trollish behaviors seem to be getting upset.Chris
@Chet Murthy:
Right, and like.
The voters might not perceive it that way. (This time). If Biden does end up withdrawing, in fact, our only hope is that the voters, apart from super-engaged weirdos like us, don’t perceive it that way, and carry Harris or whoever it is over the finish line regardless of how they got there!
But you can bet your bottom dollar that the donors will perceive it that way. Even the sincere well-meaning ones, the ones who honestly think they’re just doing what it takes to help the Democrats win, will still wake up the following morning realizing that they have this power. And the next time there’s a tiff between them and the party, they’re going to exercise it again. And the time after that. And the time after that. Until we’re at a point where regardless of how this started and regardless of any individual donor’s intentions, we’re at the point where “what the Democratic Party wants” is synonymous with “what the Democratic Party’s richest donors want” and “who the Democratic Party picks” is synonymous with “who the Democratic Party’s richest donors pick.” And that’s not sustainable in the long run for a party whose entire legitimacy is based on the notion that it’s the little people’s shield against the rich and powerful.
The media, of course, already perceives it that way: this entire shit-show is happening because they’ve decided, like in most elections within living memory, to go all-in on helping the Republicans and kneecapping the Democrats, something that isn’t going to change just because we switched Democrats.
chemiclord
@TaMara:
I’d say my reservations with AOC was that she very clearly didn’t understand how the House and consensus building worked early in her career. If she learned quickly enough before her constituents got frustrated, she had the potential to be a great politician.
And she did exactly that.
TaMara
I see the pastry has arrived.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Exactly.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Chet Murthy: I’ll support Harris or the replacement. There will be a good story for anyone.
We can fight about it later.
I just think the anti-Biden folks have outsmarted themselves arguing with the pro-Biden folks. Offering at least three different and somewhat contradictory rationales (he’s old! polls! foot Parkinson’s!) and shifting to the one that works best against the person arguing with them in the moment reveals…
…that they can’t pick one rationale, let alone one replacement. just out here bullshitting for love of the game. unserious in all respects, and WORSE, so privileged that they think merely repeating the same lacking assertions makes them serious.
If Nancy wanted Biden replaced, she’d have a person and a plan. the anti-Biden commenters think they are smart enough to skip steps
zhena gogolia
@Percysowner: I know, I forgot about that and was shocked yesterday when all my pie had disappeared from my phone.
Spanky
@me:
Megadonors: “Exxxxxcellent!“
Chris
@Splitting Image:
Again, I would fucking love to be wrong about this. That’s the situation before us as I see it. If someone can convince me that none of these problems are true or that they’re far smaller and more manageable than I think, heck, I’d be thrilled, if only because I’d sleep better.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Spanky: Like, buck the fuck up, senior leading Democrats. fix your senior leading faces and lead with a smile. Joe did it for you!
Archon
@mrstealyourcostcosample:
I just want a realistic plan since Jeffries publicly backing Biden suggests the donor class wants an unrealistic plan like dumping the entire ticket and playing out some season finale of the West Wing.
Constantly doom posting bad polls without a concrete plan of action was getting old two weeks ago, now it’s border line insulting.
WereBear
@Chet Murthy: That is how I explain the difference to people. In our system, there’s only two parties, and they thrash things out internally, then run against the other party.
In parliamentary systems, a bunch of people form a coalition, then fight amongst themselves.
Chet Murthy
@Spanky:
It occurs to me that this is the endgame of Citizens United (!!) Not “now we can fund the bad guys with dark money, etc, etc,”. No, that would be too obvious, too direct (and heck, they’re doing that too!) But rather, “we can find the ostensible good guys with dark money a-go-go, and thereby pervert them, co-opt them, turn them into just ‘not as bad as the bad guys’ guys”.
BretH
@kindness: Interesting, isn’t it? I haven’t pied that many but a couple of threads ago my feed was a veritable bakery shop. Not a one in this thread.
Reminds me of a few kitchens in apartments I have lived in when I came in at night and turned on the light…
Kristine
@WereBear: I sent you a couple—my cards arrived a couple of days ago and I thought they came from you.
FDRLincoln
I have been making a monthly donation of $34 to Biden since the Stormy Daniels verdict.
In honor of the end of the RNC, I just kicked in an extra $34.
Renounce Donald Trump, all his works, and all his pomps.
WereBear
Indeed.
Kristine
@WereBear: I checked the address and it was correct. I’ll try it again.
O. Felix Culpa
I am furious that my Senator, Martin Henrich, called for Biden to step down today. Called his office in Albuquerque to express my disapproval. Is this some kind of nervous Nellie reaction? He’s up for reelection, but my experience in the state suggests that he’ll win handily. Asshole.
I’ll vote for him, but no donations from me.
@me: I didn’t seen your explanation before commenting. Heinrich has a huge war chest. He substantially subsidizes the state Democratic Party. New Mexico is geographically farflung, but NOT an expensive media market. He is NOT vulnerable in this election. What a wuss.
WereBear
@Kristine: Oh boy! And still nothing, checked spam, etc. Weird. Glad you got your cards.
Well, they are up for grabs by anyone. My hand seizes up, so despite best intentions making it legible is not possible :)
schrodingers_cat
Steve Schmidt of Sarah Palin fame is behind the PAC, Pass The Torch
Martin
@Chris: So, the media isn’t kneecapping Biden. Democrats are, using the media as their weapon. They aren’t making this out of whole cloth – there are prominent Dems, some being very open, about their intentions here. Their motives aren’t always clear, though. But if Dems were universally denying wanting Biden out, this story would die in minutes.
As for the donor class, I don’t quite understand what’s different now. They’ve always been there and they’ve always done this sort of thing. Biden became the nominee because of them (and Harris dropped out before the first primary because of them). If you want to know why primaries are engaged or not it’s because the donors use their money to decide whether a primary happens or not.
There’s never been a time in my lifetime that the donors weren’t the kingmakers. That problem only got worse with Citizens United. I’m not telling people to suck it up, but complaining about the mechanism that got Biden as the nominee in the first place is just being selective about what to be upset about.
I’m sanguine about the whole thing. I don’t think it matters, tbh. This campaign is mainly an anti-referendum on Trump. Biden should be performing better than he is given the conditions. A shakeup of the ticket carries its own costs. The party is exercising the power it always does. The donors the same. If you thought you had a say in Biden being the nominee for 2024 – you didn’t. None of us did. And because of that I don’t know why people are so invested in this. All of this is out of our hands, always has been. Just roll with it and throw your energy behind whatever the machine spits out.
hueyplong
@Archon: “Let us know when you’re ready to move on.”
Sometimes when a random irritation disappears you hardly notice. It’s a nice thing about our makeup.
Chris Johnson
@Xentik: I mean, read what you yourself wrote. ‘NYT invoked anonymous donors’. Ain’t even necessarily the donors that are the problem.
It’s the same picture. It’s the same playbook. It’s the same inability to cite sources.
For what it’s worth, I was around leftist circles when Warren was pushed out, and the sources doing it from the left (all that snake emoji messaging) were openly praising Putin out the other side of their mouths and suppressing anybody who dared object to that. It’s even the same oversight and the same agenda.
Chris
@Chet Murthy:
IIRC, wasn’t part of Obama’s shtick going all-out on small donor donations precisely so that we wouldn’t be left completely dependent on our “friends” from Weyland-Yutani, the Trade Federation, and Vault-Tec?
Is the issue here that Citizens United’s put the ball so firmly back in their court that no amount of small donor collections can keep up?
guachi
@Splitting Image: How about the majority of Democrats who have been saying for months that Biden shouldn’t run? As far back as April 2023 51% of Ds didn’t want Biden to run. Ignore the donors, Joe. Listen to the voters.
UncleEbeneezer
@Old School: The fact that they are so surprised and mad about the strength and tenor of the pushback shows how out of touch they are with our coalition and the Dem base.
Xentik
@O. Felix Culpa: He was the one that was directly threatened by a donor the other day. There was a transcript of the conversation floating around. So basically flat out cowardice.
Theflippsyd
Called my Senators and Rep to ask them to vocally put their support behind Joe Biden. Interesting that Lisa Blunt Rochester’s office was incredibly positive when I spoke to the staff person — said thank you for calling and I will forward your message to her. Coons office staff generally always seem irritated when you call (and I’ve called a fair bit). Carper’s office staff told me that he already has thrown his support behind Biden: “He’s said that he will support Biden whatever his decision.” She wasn’t happy when I told her that those were weasel words and he needed to come out and support President Biden. I then told her that I haven’t seen his name mentioned in the news, on social media, etc., so he needed to be more vocal.
gwangung
Yeah AOC has been a rock star who deserves that reputation; style and substance, and a model for ANY politician. Still might be a little too left for some people, but Dems NEED that viewpoint.
And candidate replacement now, for ANY reason, would mean chaos. And I think the chaos is underestimated, even by people who are against replacement. (I mean, God forbid, if Biden died, there’d STILL be chaos, shaken confidence and approval drops, and that’s the most justified case for replacement).
Shalimar
Joe Rogan is an idiot. He and a fellow comedian bought onto Trump’s argument that Chicago is more violent than Afghanistan because there have been more murders in Chicago than US soldiers killed in Afghanistan. I don’t want to argue against gun control in Chicago because we definitely need it.
That said, it’s neglectfully racist to leave out all of the Afghanis when you’re talking about violence in Afghanistan. Total murders in Chicago and just Americans in Afghanistan is not a direct comparision.
OId Man Shadow
@Spanky:
Allow me to fucking propose a goddamn solution to our fucking leaders:
Step 1: Shut your fucking traps. Shut ’em. Shut them. SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Step 2: Get behind the fucking candidate you have. Joe Fucking Goddamn Biden, you fucking stupid pricks.
Step 3: When you stop shutting the fuck up with your fucking mouths, you say, “Joe Biden has been a great fucking president, you fucking moron reporters. Now fuck off and go look at convicted felon, January 6th ringleader, state secret stealing, sleepy Trump over there. Now look at Joe. Look at Trump. Look at Joe. Joe is still twice the fucking man Trump is in every conceivable catagory and by the fucking way, let’s talk about those shitty, extremist fuckhead assholes at the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025, let’s talk about Agenda 47, and let’s talk about how the REpublican goddamned party spent fifty years sabotaging the Federal judiciary with extremist hacks like Thomas and Alito to rip away EVERY SINGLE CIVIL AND LABOR RIGHTS WON OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS AND PROBABLY BEFORE THAT!”
Eyeroller
@Spanky: There’s an easy solution to this problem, you fucking moron “leading Democrats.” Get on the Biden train now.
Ksmiami
@me: he’s lost me as a financial contributor from this point forward.
kindness
@TaMara: I think the Crowdstrike thing must have taken the internet in Russia down. Guess it’s now back up. Damn!
UncleEbeneezer
@Chet Murthy:
2016:
Commenters: We will not let Big Monied Interests pick our nominee!!
2024:
Big Monied Interests: Hey, let’s replace Joe Biden!
Commenters: Hmmm…maybe just this once…
OId Man Shadow
@Shalimar: Well, you know… THOSE people (wink wink) don’t count as people in certain circles.
Cacti
@mrstealyourcostcosample: Cite Biden’s good polls. Teach us all a lesson and shut us up for good. Show the ones that have him winning in the swing states he needs to get to 270 since his debate immolation.
Old School
One of the Many Jens
@Kay: What on earth?
Honestly, I don’t recognize you at the moment. It’s not disagreeing about Biden’s capabilities or some of his policies. Even when I disagreed with some of what you advocated re Israel and Gaza, for example, I appreciated you speaking up, because Palestinians need strong advocates. If you no longer want Biden to run, ok. You’re a voter, you have the right to both think that and say so.
But as someone who always argued for do your job, and process, and against Comey’s actions, for example, I am surprised by how willing you are to say the primary voters’ votes are meaningless. But ok, you’ve changed your mind. Bush v Gore was the right way to handle 2000, and Comey was right to speak out against Hillary, and primary votes for Biden-Harris should be overridden in a contested convention.
Why the glee? That’s the part that really confounds me.
O. Felix Culpa
@narya: Yes, a member of my household also thinks it would be better for Biden to go. Although I strongly disagree, I know they will vote for the D candidate regardless. Some arguments are not worth having.
John Revolta
@Chris:
The Cossacks work for the Tsar. Which is to say, the media are owned and operated by the money boys and do their bidding.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@OId Man Shadow:
this is where things will end up. there will be falling in line.
each individual dem overestimates their own cleverness and underestimates (non-white) voter savvy. if you have the chance to educate the rubes through the media as to the proper course of action, it would be wrong to deny them the benefit of your own voice.
but sometimes shutting the fuck up and falling in line is smart!
Citizen Alan
@Kay: I never dreamed that a day would come when I would pie you. I’ll check back in with you after the DNC and see how you’re doing.
Chet Murthy
@Chris: A long, long, long time ago, I read an anthropology book titled _Ancient Society_ (pub. 1877). IIRC it was one of Marx’s sources, though I might be misremembering. Anyway, in that book it was explained that even though most of the sustenance for a tribe/clan came from gathering, the meat brought back by hunters was decisive in clan organization and leadership. Why? Because the hunter that slew the deer, got to distribute the proceeds, and that meant he got to build fealty networks from it. Because kills weren’t like clockwork, and they weren’t produced by all hunters, this gave those who got lucky disproportionate power. Gathering had no such windfall and “only a few get lucky” properties.
I would postulate (but hey, I’m just a dog on the Internet) that big-money donations are like that: they might not dominate small-dollar donations in aggregate, but in the -minds- of the politicians, they dominate b/c of the way in which the money arrives, the size of individual donations. etc.
It is what it is. I/we don’t have to like it.
ssdd
@OId Man Shadow: I fucking endorse this goddamn solution!
taumaturgo
@Kay:
The Senate and the House at also in peril. If Biden crashes as the polls are showing, the Democrats and democracy will go down with him.
“We are not a democracy with a fascist problem, we are a fascist nation with a democracy problem.” “The purpose of the system is what it does” Caro TT
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Cacti:
i’m not playing this stupid game. he’s in margin of error or tied across WI/MI/PA. that’s a good start.
his opponent bombed his convention while kissing a dead man’s hat and the october surprise is going to be a criminal sentencing.
you don’t have to live like this. trump has never cracked 50% in eight years. the ceiling is hard
SatanicPanic
While it’s not great giving rich donors more power, a lot of us are more concerned that Biden won’t win. Speaking for myself, that belief isn’t based on any media spin, I just look at him and I see a man who is losing his battle with aging. I’m really skeptical he can make it to November without something as bad as the debate. If that means I agree with George Clooney or whatever, it is what it is.
zhena gogolia
@OId Man Shadow: You and I are on the same page.
Chris
@Martin:
No, the media is very much kneecapping Biden. The last month can’t be disassociated from the previous four years. During that time, they not only created the narrative of “Biden’s not just old, but he’s sick and senile and unable to function” and “Biden could step down after just one term,” thus creating both the explanation and the solution that everybody jumped on the first time Biden had a serious stumble. They also effectively created a blackout on anything that could be construed as either “good news for Biden” or “Biden’s message getting out.”
It started with Afghanistan, when people who supported the withdrawal literally could not get on the air anywhere, and it hasn’t let up since. Gas prices shot up. It was all we heard about for months. Gas prices shot right back down. Crickets. Unemployment went down to its lowest point since, what, the sixties, a job market Obama would’ve killed to have in 2012? Crickets. The government capped insulin prices at $35.00. It was reported as “medical companies say they won’t charge more than $35.00!” Imminent recession was predicted tirelessly for four years. When the situation finally got so good that even the media couldn’t keep pretending it was 2009, every report about it was carefully phrased as “why isn’t the good economy helping Biden?”
I’m not even going to get into how much they downplayed Dobbs, and how much they’ve downplayed the last couple of Supreme Court power grabs.
That’s the context for not only the debate, but the poll numbers that were pretty much where they are now long before the debate. I’m sure some elected Democrats have their own goals and are settling scores through the media. I’m sure some donors are too. The eight hundred pound gorilla in the room is still the media.
zhena gogolia
@One of the Many Jens:
Me too. It’s sickening.
Old School
@mrstealyourcostcosample:
What he said was a dead man’s hat and outfit.
I suppose it’s possible he wore a uniform with his name misspelled.
Chris
@Chet Murthy:
I can see that.
Never heard of that book, but it makes sense too.
Another Scott
Thanks TaMara and everyone.
Meanwhile, … The drip drip drip in “who’s pushing this, anyway” is getting to be more than a trickle…
Did someone say follow the money??
Nitter (Twitter version):
(To be clear – my view is that Silver is probably happy to push this stuff for the clicks, but the fact that he’s financially tied to Thiel makes it much easier for him to be in the mindset to push this stuff for other reasons.)
Cheers,
Scott.
Cacti
@mrstealyourcostcosample: You think trailing in the margin of error is a good sign for an incumbent POTUS?
Dios mio.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@zhena gogolia: I can’t find the text of Flatlander, so from memory…
My sentiments exactly.
Omnes Omnibus
I just got a call from WISDEMS to see if I wanted to canvass next weekend. Of course I said yes. A perfect antidote to the negativity. I also got invited to see Kamala Harris on Milwaukee on Tuesday. Unfortunately I can’t make that. Here is a link for anyone in the area who wants to go.
Eyeroller
@Chet Murthy: Ya know there have been some updates in our understanding of anthropology and hunter-gatherer societies since 1877.
Lyrebird
@TaMara: First off, THANK YOU!!!
Second, doofus reader here, I thought the quote at the top was from the AOC chat. I know you have a photo of Ol’ Handsome Joe right there, but it’s only on my third visit to the thread that I got it.
WereBear
@Old School:
He did. That was his real coat and there wasn’t room. Small town frugality.
Chet Murthy
@Martin: @Chris: I think this is the key sentence in Martin’s comment:
I think we all remember when Biden said things like “nothing is going to change” (or something like that — he reassured the rich that he was no hair-on-fire Socialist). But then he governed much more like one than (I’ll bet) they had ever reckoned. I sure can believe that all the rich are feeling goddamn cheated alright!
That is to say: The fact that Biden has been the best President of my lifetime, IS WHY THE RICH WANT HIM OUT.
Chief Oshkosh
@Citizen Dave: I hear you. But, it’s available on YT, where you can speed it up 2x. Her big points are that she’s been in the rooms with the big donors and/or the pols whose political lives rely entirely on big donor dollars, and (1) many if not most want both Biden AND Harris gone, and (2) none of them had (or have) a plan for actually creating and running a successful campaign based on a ticket without those two.
chemiclord
@John Revolta: It’s why they have so desperately been leaning on polls to make it sound like the voters are souring on Biden. There’s no traction for their plot without voter support.
Xentik
@SatanicPanic: The problem with this is the rich donors are themselves using underpants gnome logic. As AOC pointed out, in the back room meetings she has been in, no one has an answer for how the switch will work. No idea what kinds of legal issues might arise, who the candidate would be, how we would make up the $130million in funding we would lose by dumping Biden/Harris, etc.
Of course they do this because like the Irish guy in Braveheart said, their god ($$$) will get them through this ok, but they’re pretty sure we’re fucked. The stakes aren’t existential to them, they don’t care if they royally fuck things up. They will just buy a republican instead going forward.
Chris
@One of the Many Jens:
I mean, this is kind of the social media effect in a nutshell. Spend enough time arguing with people because someone on the Internet is WRONG, after a while the importance of them being wrong and you being vindicated dwarfs everything else.
This place isn’t all that good an example of it. It explains LGM going off the deep end a lot better, because the sheer contempt for their commentariat by multiple front-pagers and Loomis in general has been part of its culture for so long. This just brought it to a head.
Lyrebird
@Omnes Omnibus: GO OMNES GO!!!!
For anyone else like me who is like NOT not not cut out to go canvassing, one option is to bring food to the hub for the canvassers!
TaMara
@taumaturgo: I see a new pastry has entered the chat
Ironcity
@bbleh: I’ve started getting contribution asks from a Biden Victory Fund. Well-produced graphics, minimum text but not including “authorized/paid for by Joe Biden for President committee” or the usual. Is this Biden Victory Fund legit or a grift?
dexwood
@O. Felix Culpa:
I called his office, too, as did my wife. Expressed my disappointment in him on the message, told him I will now always think of him as a money-grubbing coward. He and I have mutual friends going back to his days when he first ran for Albuquerque’s city council. Hell, I sat with him at an Albuquerque Dukes baseball game in 2004. Always respected him. Like you, I’ll vote for the weasel, but nothing more from me.
Ruckus
@TaMara:
Many politicians have a lot of noise around them, more often than not, a lot of negative noise. I call it bull and shit – because it is. And it can be on both sides.
People like what and who they like and the exact opposite is true as well. I’ve learned over the decades that trying to understand the levels of this that the variety of humans show and there is no secret – it’s humanity, in all it’s glory and all it’s bullshit.
We all have to work within the boundaries of humanity and we have to do this understanding from where we as individuals stand. And often we forget that we are as human as everyone else. We may not all have the same faults and good points but we all have both, in at least small varying degrees. And sometimes large…
And there seems to be to me, 2 major groups, selfish and unselfish. And along all the points in each direction. Most of us are human after all…
Cacti
@SatanicPanic: And let’s not pretend that Biden has ever, for even a moment, had a problem with rich donors.
He’s spent 52 years raking in millions from them in contributions.
He’s a mainstream corporate Democrat and always has been. His supporters pretending that he’s the 2024 Che Guevara shows how deep the denial has gotten.
Shalimar
@SatanicPanic: The election is under 15 weeks away. The vast majority of 81 year olds do not decline rapidly over any specific 15 week period. Why would anyone be worried Biden (or Trump for that matter) won’t even make it to the election? That makes no sense logically.
Chief Oshkosh
What’s the true link for donating to the Biden/Harris campaign? I know about the ActBlue one – is there another?
Spanky
@SatanicPanic: This argument has ceased to be about Joe Biden. The question has become, are we going to allow the mainstream media, bolstered by the donor class extorting Democratic operatives and elected officials, to overturn the will of primary voters and throw the Democratic ticket OUT at a time where it’s TOO FUCKING LATE to stand up another candidate that would have a snowball’s chance in hell of winning. And I think it’s become pretty obvious from comments from the people in the back rooms that we’ve heard about that that candidate is sure as hell NOT going to be Kamala Harris.
Citizen Dave
@Chief Oshkosh: Thanks. I’m totally on board with all that and 1000% Ridin’ with Biden/Harris. Was just joking about the length vs. content. I get it is an Instagram live chat, so it’s all good. Was perplexed by not being able to fast forward, like on you tube. Or see the length.
Chris
@SatanicPanic:
And that’s fair. I just 1) don’t see how switching him out helps when the polls show that pretty much everyone else who might run is in the same general ballpark when it comes to a match-up with Trump, 2) don’t see nearly enough concrete plans from anyone who matters to explain how we’re going to navigate through all the very real difficulties involved in replacing him, and 3) don’t see nearly enough acknowledgement from anyone in the “drop Biden” camp of how much of a role malignant actors have had in bringing us to this place, or, more importantly, any thoughts on how we deal with these actors to prevent this in the future. (No, “run younger candidates” isn’t a solution, any more than “run candidates who don’t have a private email server,” or even “run candidates who aren’t women” was a solution to 2016, because as in 2016, that isn’t the real problem).
TaMara
@Chief Oshkosh: I just added the YT video above now that one has shown up.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Chris: Thanks for this comment.
Garden guy
@wjca:
“I’m the only one who can stop these Marxist attacks on Our Beautiful Country!”
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Cacti: Yes
TaMara
@Chief Oshkosh: https://joebiden.com/
Also some fun merch there, too
Lyrebird
@Xentik: Thank you for posting additional details about conventions etc without apparent rancor the other day when there was lots of spare rancor from lots of directions.
In general, what I am going to say from here on out is, wait, we* are the DEMOCRATIC Party, right? Let’s get out there and advocate boldly for our democratically selected ticket!
If some people are going to do more campaigning like AOC did for Jacky Rosen iirc, or focus on even more down-ticket races, fine! Not chaos.
* ETA BTW I do not assume all lovely BJ commenters are in the same political party, and I will celebrate the day when the non-MAGA Republicans have a non-fascist party base and all.
Totally not important but I am so glad I was not the only one here:
If AOC is not president around when Maddow needs to retire, she’ll be GREAT at elevating the airwaves.
Chet Murthy
@Xentik:
I’m reminded of a quote from The Great Gatsby:
Why should the rich figure out things like “how to make it actually work” ? They have
hired peoplepoliticians for that! And sure, it might not work out, but in that case they have private jets and villas on the Cote d’Azur.TaMara
@Citizen Dave: I, too was grumpy about the inability to pause, fast forward or come back and watch from a certain time. I’m not Instagram savvy, so it was eye-opening.
Cacti
@Shalimar: I heard that same argument when DiFi ran for her last senate term.
Remind me how that turned out again.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Cacti: bringing back the (D-MBNA) days from thirty years ago?
this is sad. p(ie)ace.
Scout211
Lots of pie and pastries in this thread now. I just pied a regular commebter, which is a first for me.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@Chet Murthy: you are ONE MILLION PERCENT right.
careless and unserious and destructive.
(vs. Joe, who has, to coin a phrase, built back better)
TaMara
@Scout211: Feel for me, since I’m moderating this post, I have to toggle all those pastries to make sure they aren’t crossing a line.
I may need brain bleach and a good scrub brush
zhena gogolia
@Chief Oshkosh: The e-mails I get from them all go to ActBlue.
O. Felix Culpa
What I emailed to Senator Heinrich’s office (D-NM):
Dear Senator Heinrich,
I am appalled at your call for Biden to step down. In the first order, how dare you try to disenfranchise me and the 14 million other voters who chose President Biden in the primaries? We had a process. He won. The time to find unnamed Better Candidate was then, not now.
Second, who would replace him? Name names. Frankly, if it’s not Kamala Harris, then it’s no one. Curiously, none of you folks suggesting a change have also offered up a name. Are we plebeian Dems–mere voters–just supposed to fall in line with whoever the elites and moneybags hork up at the eleventh hour?
Third, how is this change supposed to happen at this late date? Lay out the mechanics of it–at the convention and on the state ballots. And how will this not result in chaos at the convention and feed the “Dems in disarray” narrative even further? I remember 1968. Do you know who got elected as a result?
Finally, how would the Democratic Party overcome the legal challenges that the GOP and Speaker Johnson have ALREADY said they would launch if the candidate names are changed? Do you really trust the current Supreme Court? Are you ok with the possibility of the new Unnamed Candidate not appearing on some ballots?
Honestly, I’m disgusted at the weakness on display by our so-called party leaders. I watched the debate. President Biden had a truly terrible 20 minutes, and then recovered. Not great, but good enough, and way better than the other guy. He’s had numerous solid public appearances since then in a variety of settings. He’s been one of the best presidents of my lifetime and deserves better than this.
The public polling shows a tight race. So let’s work hard to win. Bill Clinton was running in 3rd place at this time in 1992. Are we going to switch candidates every time the polls look unfavorable? Think of the terrible precedents on so many levels that the action you called for would set. I hope you show enough strength of character to walk this back.
Respectfully yours, etc.
Cacti
@mrstealyourcostcosample: You mean he stopped taking money from them?
The banking, insurance, and securities industries all gave more money to him than Trump in 2020.
theturtlemoves
I was definitely AOC skeptical when she first came on the scene but she’s proven to be a very savvy team player. She puts forth disagreements in good faith and tactically and is on the team when it counts. Good on her for this one.
Shalimar
@taumaturgo: Yes, if Biden crashes at the polls then Democrats and democracy go down with him. Which is why it is exasperating that so many Democrats are trying to kneecap him.
Democrats are far more likely to crash under magic untested candidate X. There is no super-candidate in the wings who will definitely do better than Biden.
SoupCatcher
It feels like this — disrupting the certification process — will be a thing going forward.
The Republicans attempted this with an overt coup on January 6th to stop the certification of general election votes.
We’re in the middle of an attempt to disrupt the certification of primary election votes.
As Dr. Silverman noted in last night’s Ukraine thread, if your goal was to fracture the coalition that is today’s Democratic Party, your behavior would look exactly the same as what we are seeing now.
That helped distill things for me. For the other side, following your proposed plan of action and overthrowing Biden/Harris with a soft coup will fracture the Democratic Party coalition. And while that will make Republicans, and libertarian douchebros, and white supremacists, and antitax wealthy donors, and big tech antiregulation leaders, and crypto assholes, and media owners, and oligarchs worldwide, and the leadership of Hamas, and Netanyahu, and Putin, and China ecstatic, I can’t see an upside for the rest of us.
The primary is over. Biden/Harris won. Now it’s time to finish the job and reelect the best president of my lifetime and his team.
zhena gogolia
@O. Felix Culpa: Good letter.
Trivia Man
I left a voice message for my liberal congressman. I didnt see it but i heard he was talking like he was suggesting joe drop out. I didnt quite yell but i found my voice getting very aggressive. Stop give ng trump cover and get loudly supportive of the most effective president in my lifetime.
SFBayAreaGal
@M31: Perfect, just perfect. Lol
One of the Many Jens
@Cacti: The great state of California has an impressive woman as Senator, holding the seat until a hopefully single-termed Senator Schiff can take over next January?
Lyrebird
@O. Felix Culpa: Gurl, you ARE a writer, yes ma’am!!!
If my lingo is anything but high praise in your ears, just read this part and toss out anything that doesn’t fit.
@SoupCatcher:
Yes I came to the same way of thinking yesterday, partly because no matter how much lipstick CNN and other networks have been smearing on that RNC, it is one scary pig. So there is all that much more desire to turn the Dem convention to pig poop. NO no no NO!
FDRLincoln
As an old white guy, I find a good rule of thumb is to ask, “what do black women want us to do?”
Usually that’s the right answer.
Kay
@Cacti:
Jen O Malley Dillon is claiming “field” (staff and volunteers going door to door) can fix this – which is delusional
Shes only saying it because all her numbers are bad, which every single politician will know immediatly
Its like when they start quoting the Keys to The Presidency guy – you know they’re in trouble
Kamala is rested and ready. If Biden endorses her she’s a lock with the delegates. Oh, and AOC is wrong on Ohio election law.
Xentik
@Lyrebird: Happy someone actually saw the convention stuff! Seemed impossible to get a word in edgewise in that thread. It was definitely very heated.
I think you are right, we are the party, it’s up to each of us to push back, make ourselves heard or help out in whatever way makes sense! I am heartened by how many jackals are calling their reps/senators and asking them to take a stand.
For my part I wrote to Biden through the WH page and donated $81. Sadly I have no representation to contact being a DC person :p
Juju
@me: I read what Senator Heinrich said, and it was almost word for word what Rep. Himes said on his website. Hmmm.
Shalimar
@Cacti: DiFi won. Her replacment has been great. And she was far more gone to dementia than Biden is now. His bad debate and occasional foot-in-mouth was her 24/7 reality.
TaMara
@O. Felix Culpa: Wow, that’s excellent. I may just use that as my script for my calls today, if that’s okay.
SatanicPanic
@Xentik: my understanding is that Biden would ask his delegates to vote for Kamala and she could use DNC funds
O. Felix Culpa
@zhena gogolia:
Thank you. You and several other cogent thinkers on the blog provided some of my points. I take responsibility for any shortcomings, though. :-)
@Lyrebird:
Thankee kindly. I was, shall we say, motivated.
different-church-lady
Allow me to summarize where we’re at:
1) Sticking with Biden is a hell of a risk.
2) Replacing Biden is a hell of a risk.
O. Felix Culpa
@TaMara: Feel free. I stole liberally from other folks on this blog and elsewhere. :)
Shalimar
@Kay: There will be lawsuits. Ohio election law is whatever judges say it is. If you still trust federal courts after the last 25 years, I don’t know what to say.
Josie
@One of the Many Jens: I’m glad to see you say that (Why the glee). I thought maybe I was just making stuff up in my own mind.
BarcaChicago
@Citizen Alan: Same.
Kay
plus we’d pick up 80k Arab Americans in MI with Harris, virtually overnight. They have no one they can vote for now.
Shalimar
@different-church-lady: 3. the tank is full of shit after a month of shit-stirring. We should stir some more, maybe it will clear up.
SpaceUnit
Glad to hear that AOC made a pitch for Joe. I couldn’t make it through that video though.
My forehead made contact with the desk before she ever got around to a point. Yeesh.
Cacti
@One of the Many Jens: You omitted the part where she needed Patty Murray to sit by her and tell her when to say “aye” and “nay” after the dementia took hold.
And be careful mentioning Adam Schiff. He’s now a counter revolutionary and enemy of the people, and El Presidente José Guevara Biden.
Uncle Cosmo
“Anyone who says you can’t herd cats never heard of a can opener.” (Jim Hightower)
Can operer’s out there, Minority Leader. Find it and use it liberally.
Steve in the ATL
@different-church-lady: the only reasonable solution is cheap scotch and ginger ale
Juju
@ssdd: Ignore them. We know why they are calling for Joe Biden to drop out, and it has nothing to do with his cognitive abilities.
BarcaChicago
@Josie:
@One of the Many Jens:
Same. Very surprised to see this.
One of the Many Jens
@Chris: All my responses I begin to type are depressing me, so I’ll just say that that xkcd cartoon is possibly the most brilliant thing I’ve ever seen on these here intertoobz!
Cacti
@Kay: And an undetermined number of young voters who won’t be genocidin’ with Biden in 2024.
different-church-lady
@Steve in the ATL: Which, as it turns out, is also the only unreasonable solution.
O. Felix Culpa
@schrodingers_cat: LOL!
Chris
@One of the Many Jens:
XKCD is the good stuff.
I was really sorry I’d never seen the “best thesis defense is a good thesis offense” one before my actual thesis presentation. Would’ve found some way to work it in there.
Xentik
@SatanicPanic: That is not how the rules of the convention work. Biden cannot ask his delegates to vote for someone else. He can release them or not. If he releases them they are free to vote for whomever on the first round. Maybe they will listen and vote for Harris, but there is nothing preventing donors from lobbying the delegates behind the scenes ahead of the convention.
Additionally the process for adding new candidates for the nomination says that they can be submitted up until 6PM the night before the Convention.
We already know from AOC that the donors want to push out the whole ticket. They could easily do so before we have a chance to react with the current rules as written.
If you (and others like Kay) truly believe replacing Biden is the way to go, you need to get the DNC to revise the rules of the convention *before* Biden drops out. They could easily rework it so the delegates pass to the VP on the ticket if the candidate steps out.
They could also push back the deadline for submitting candidates to 2 weeks ahead, so the donors can’t throw someone in at the last second.
trollhattan
@Kay: Do they have a one-race ballot there? Ours has dozens.
hueyplong
@Shalimar: We might add that replacing a Senator can be awkward. Presidents have their replacements at hand.
The argument cacti makes is so stupid that it’s borderline reassuring. And the sarcasm reach is kind of chef’s kiss.
Archon
Apparently Biden told the donors and politicians that want him to go that if they all come out in support of Kamala Harris he will drop out.
Make everyone put their cards on the table, we’ll played Joe.
O. Felix Culpa
@mrstealyourcostcosample: NM is NOT in play. Not in the least. That’s why I’m so furious at Senator Heinrich. Now Brown in Ohio and Tester in big empty square state are a different matter, and I can live with them making certain unhappy noises.
BretH
@Cacti: (Just before applying pie filter) Gee, let me check <searches web> oh yes, looks like I found Sen. Laphonza Butler:
Old School
@WereBear:
Interesting. Thanks.
banditqueen
@Kay: Yes Kay, I think we can all agree that Kamala Harris, who is beloved by the pundits, is a shoe-in for the nomination after she gets endorsed by a cowed Joe Biden, who’s been relentlessly described as physically weak and mentally incompetent! :)
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Why isn’t good Scotch a solution as well?
different-church-lady
@Archon: I mean, goddamn, if they can’t unify behind a replacement then this fuckin’ party is so dysfunctional that it doesn’t deserve to win.
Other MJS
@Tractarian:
Thank you! The (deliberate, I assume) inability to control or even see how long an Instagram video is is maddening.
Since I haven’t seen anyone else do it, here are AOC’s points as I see them:
* Don’t think that the people who want Biden out will accept Harris as a replacement.
* There are issues with late ballot changes in swing states that the GOOPers are sharpening their legal knives to exploit.
* She doesn’t think “Biden must go” folks have gamed out how difficult that will be in reality.
* Broad demographic support is not the same as support in swing states.
* Biden has been really good at attracting labor union support.
I’ve doubtless missed some things.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: that’s not her style. And we all know better than to pour good scotch into ginger ale.
Eyeroller
What’s especially depressing is that these idiots continue this daily drip-drip-drip after Trump bombed at the RNC, thus sucking oxygen away from that fire and keeping it on the Biden fire. Is Heinrich really so stupid that he’d put this out just a few days after he was exposed being extorted by a donor? It just makes it clear where their priorities lie.
Ruckus
@different-church-lady:
For any human, being a rock star is rare. And as I used to work in professional sports I can tell you that applies up and down the line and that people that get a lot of public approval can be complete and utter assholes, and it seems mainly because they believe the hype and sometimes the admiration for their skills – as absolute admiration for them as beings, which often eventually backfires on them when that admiration is no longer reality. Human personalties are often biased for themselves and on occasion that backfires spectacularly. One of our currently breathing ex presidents fits that last sentence to a T, he is asshole deluxe #1.
delphinium
@O. Felix Culpa: Good letter!
It’s interesting that even after Trump’s RNC speech, some of these pols continue on with this rather than publicly going after Trump. Like you said, makes them seem like complete cowards (especially those in safe seats or not even up for re-election). Also, odd that these folks didn’t all come out at once if they really felt Biden was not up to the task. This drip-drip makes it seem like something else is going on.
One of the Many Jens
@Chris: I missed that one! There are so many good ones, though. That crazy long climate change timeline and the heights of mountains in Washington state are two that come to mind.
Chief Oshkosh
@TaMara: Thanks!
O. Felix Culpa
@dexwood: Many thanks to you and your wife for doing that. I hope there are many other Dems tearing him a new one right now.
Cacti
¡Viva la Revelución compadres! Only la comarada El Presidente José Biden can defeat the elitist capitalist pigs! ¡Hasta la victoria siempre!
😂😂😂😂
Chief Oshkosh
@zhena gogolia: Thanks much
Kay
@different-church-lady:
I was a national delegate in ‘08
Theyll rally around her. It’s the most “go team!” atmosphere imagineable
We got all but about 10 Clinton dead Enders in 08 – they’ll receive Harris like a queen. Joe comes out, endorses her, crowd goes wild.
Kamala is terrific. She’ll mop the floor with Trump.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: I did not mention ginger ale in the same breath as good Scotch. Brandy is good with ginger ale and even has the Ian Fleming James Bond seal of approval.
Al Z.
My biggest take away Republicans are planning on litigating this election no matter what happens. And replacing Biden simply opens a whole new front in this regard. Substituting Harris may mitigate this somewhat but not wholly and if it goes to SCOTUS the only votes that will count will be 6 to 3.
different-church-lady
@Kay: I have no doubt the delegates will. The donors, on the other hand…
zhena gogolia
@Archon: What’s your source for that?
Chris
@different-church-lady:
Unifying behind a replacement candidate is hard.
Unifying behind a normal candidate is hard!
It turns out there are reasons why parties don’t dump their nominees after just one term barring a once-in-a-generation crisis, and after seeing how badly that turned out the last few times it was tried, maybe not even then! Reasons that have very little to do with an irrational amount of affection for the candidate, or “being a cult,” or whatever it is Biden supporters are accused of!
FDRLincoln
In my view, if the donors won’t get behind Harris and unify to prevent election chaos, their motives have nothing to do with actually beating Trump.
Fuck them.
If not Biden, then Harris. If not Harris, than Biden. Any other plan is not serious.
Xentik
@Kay: And if they don’t? The donors don’t want Harris. Are you so certain that having successfully ousted Biden they won’t be able to foist their preferred candidate on us instead? The rules make it fairly trivial to do so once delegates are released.
That seems naively optimistic given what is happening right now.
Glidwrith
@Hungry Joe:
@Mousebumples:
@Josie: I recruited my adult children, we’re up to 24 and counting.
Also, Josie, you mentioned in a thread roughly a week ago about being able to afford stamps? If so, I would like to help out.
Villago Delenda Est
Some “Democratic” outfit called “Pass The Torch” is going to air ads in the DC area on Morning Joe aimed at OHJB.
These “Democrats” can all go pound sand.
Citizen Dave
@Archon: I was relaying what Biden’s campaign manager was saying today to my wife a couple hours ago, and while talking wondered if Joe was now negotiating to ensure Kamala is the replacement. (Otherwise it’s chaos as many here have noted). (Totally behind Biden/Harris or Harris/Biden).
MomSense
@different-church-lady:
Yes, that’s exactly where we are .i have been saying this the whole time. A few of us think the risk is greater if we stick with Biden and most of us think the risk is greater if we switch. And for that the few of us have been called all sorts of names, insulted, and pied.
It’s fucking ridiculous.
dexwood
@O. Felix Culpa:
Thanks. One correction the Dukes left town in 2000. So, it would have been the Isotopes. Great letter you wrote.
PatD
@ArchTeryx: He’s most not their best chance rather than the option they are stuck with. Otherwise there are younger, sharper potential candidates out there including his own VP. If he loses it’s almost certainly due to age and the appearance of clear infirmity and diminishment. That being said, I’m resigned to him staying in the race so best of luck to him. Also, I’d say he should not bother to debate anymore.
zhena gogolia
Some of us keep shitting on the candidate who has been voted for as the Democratic candidate by 14 million people.
Ishiyama
I see that the Trotskyite Wreckers are still hard at work; descending ever further into insults and tone-policing (consistency being merely a tool, to be used in argument when needed to score a point, but not for self-monitoring).
Over at the Guardian, they are blatantly presenting unattributed statements as indisputable facts, which fits the biased narrative:
This, of course, arrant bullsh*t, masquerading as journalism.
Geminid
@Xentik: When you talk about the donors it sounds like they are a monolith. All we really know is some donors are agitating for a replacement and are creating a lot of noise. I don’t assume the rest are on board with this scheme.
Omnes Omnibus
@MomSense: A lot of insults have gone both ways. I think you are wrong about this, but I would never call you a troll. After all, we are veterans of the DRONEZZZ Wars of the early 2010s when we worked in the same CIA boiler room.
Kristine
It’s all speculation, but interesting mumbles over on Bluesky about the pollsters that may have provided the info that led to all the screaming.
One of the Many Jens
@MomSense: It’s good to have you back.
O. Felix Culpa
I was a DNC delegate in 2020. Guess what, that doesn’t qualify me to say what the 2024 delegates will do. I can hope they’ll coalesce behind Kamala, but I don’t know that. And neither does anyone else.
Anyone who really loves Kamala and wants her to succeed would not be throwing her to the wolves at this juncture. The MSM and GOP attacks will be epic. How can I know this? Because they’ve already started. I don’t need to guess.
Lastly, (for now), anyone who is actually an ally to POC, LGBTQ+ and other vulnerable communities (my family and I are in several categories) might consider heeding their voices on this blog and elsewhere. A recent example being the letter from the 1400 Black women in leadership. The consistent message is: we LOVE Kamala and we BACK Joe Biden. Don’t trot out the one guy from Texas, please. There’s always an outlier lickspittle somewhere.
If you’re not listening, then your allyship is suspect, at best.
PatD
@Westyny: Is there a small chance, say 1%, that Pelosi and Obama have actually looked at the polling data and see a potential for down ballot collapse if people don’t vote for the Biden ticket? I don’t know, they must be political neophytes or something.
CHETAN R MURTHY
@Xentik: over at LGM Loomis is writing that if these dump Biden guys are serious, then they will be endorsing Harris NOW now now. Not in the future, not after a mini primary, but NOW. And that ain’t happening. So even some of the people who think Biden should quit, see that the portents all point to catastrophe.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ishiyama: Even The Guardian is caught in the horseshit trap.
O. Felix Culpa
@dexwood: I never saw the Dukes, but love going to the Isotopes. A fun ballpark.
Kristine
Another thread:
Blue Rose Polling=David Shor
Xentik
@Geminid: If the majority of the rich donors were pro Biden I don’t think we would see people like Heinrich coming out and asking Biden to step down. They are scared of losing large donor money.
I trust AOC’s description of the backroom discussions she has been privy to, and that there is no consensus on Harris and a lot of push for replacing the entire ticket. I also believe her when she says that they haven’t been able to articulate an actual plan for how replacing Biden would work.
These are real issues that must be addressed. Anyone here who truly believes that Biden should step down should be pushing for these things to be solved before that happens to avoid chaos.
Eyeroller
@Kristine: According to Steve LaBonne, who has fled here from LGM, the problematic “internal polls” were by some kid who worked as a data analyst for Obama in the 2012 campaign. He has his own company
hervevillechaizelounge
Am I crazy or is the push to unseat Biden the Business Plot 2.0??
All of these moneyed DINOs staggering their demands he step down to keep it in the news?
zhena gogolia
@Villago Delenda Est: “Even the Guardian”? The Guardian has been shit for years.
CHETAN R MURTHY
@hervevillechaizelounge: you aren’t crazy
Eyeroller
@hervevillechaizelounge: There is definitely a reason that a few House members announce per day, just to keep the fire going. It points to a coordinated campaign. Some people get angry when I suggest who is behind it.
NeenerNeener
I’ve been trying to talk my older sister off the ledge for at least 2 weeks now. She keeps sending me articles about how well a Harris/Mark Kelly ticket would do and I keep telling her to save that for 2028.
The thing that struck fear in my heart from the AOC video is Mike Johnson organizing lawsuits if we change the top of the Dem ticket this late, and it going all the way to Trump’s Extreme Court. That may be the info my sister needs to stop speculating that some other ticket can prevent Project 2025.
CHETAN R MURTHY
@zhena gogolia: haha the TERF Guardian is shit, but it isn’t the bloody diarrhea with detached intestinal lining that is the FTFNYT
PatD
@Eyeroller: if people are going to be unskewing the polls it’s a waste of time. There’s going to be more than 1 poll out in the field and most won’t ever be made public. The Dems are constantly polling.
Kristine
@Eyeroller: David Shor?
O. Felix Culpa
@Eyeroller: Agree. Every time the news cycle appears to be moving on…voila!…another useful idiot speaks out and fans the flames again. It’s happened too often not to be
coordinatedenemy action.Nelle
We have a plan, a Constitutional plan, if Biden cannot continue his duties. That would be his replacement, VP Harris. We don’t need to reinvent anything. Ride on, Biden. Harris is on the horse, right behind you, ready and able.
Eyeroller
@Kristine: That’s who Steve said it was.
me
@hervevillechaizelounge:
Maybe https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3kxnvwflsho24
zhena gogolia
@CHETAN R MURTHY: True.
TEL
I’m so pissed at my traitorous representative – Jared Huffman. Fucker released a letter officially saying he wants Biden to drop out a few hours ago. I will say I’m appreciating the fact that he and the other 3 traitorous reps who signed are so far out of the loop that they didn’t know that Biden was going to do this announcement right after they released the letter. It looks like this might be the same letter that was floating around the media claiming 20 signatures. I’ve tried calling his local office and got voicemail, so I’m thinking of calling his DC office. I also sent an email a couple of days ago when I first read about the letter as he was one of the few public names on it.
This jerk has no apparent plan, just doesn’t want Biden. And if you think he’s wanting Harris to step in Biden’s place, I can assure you he’s exactly one of those assholes that AOC is talking about. Harris is NOT popular in a large part of his district, a combination of “nice polite racists” in Marin county, “Kamala is a cop” folks in Sonoma county and “Ron Paul is a god” cannabis folks in Humboldt county. (MisterForkbeard may have a more nuanced take on Humboldt – I’ve mostly interacted with cannabis growers as I work in agriculture).
LAC
@O. Felix Culpa: Good point, but I imagine hard to hear over hurt fee fees and 1000 posting of “I am right because I have been here sooooooo long.” Ally ship indeed….
Villago Delenda Est
@O. Felix Culpa: First time is happenstance
Second time is coincidence.
Third time is enemy action.
We’re way past the third time.
Martin
@Chet Murthy: I don’t understand this comment when the very people that everyone is accusing of trying to push Biden out had a $30M fundraiser for him weeks before the debate.
Biden didn’t change his position on taxation during those weeks. I get that everyone is trying very hard to make sense of this situation – but some of these explanations and conspiracies just don’t make sense.
Eyeroller
@Xentik: One of the latest turncoats, Zoe Lofgren, advocated for a “miniprimary” (at the convention, I suppose) hosted by former Presidents Clinton and Obama. Talk about delusional.
SomeRandomGuy
@Steve in the ATL: I think rum works better in ginger ale. Scotch makes me think “what, you didn’t have something else to drink with your ginger ale?”
No offense intended, of course. I’ll drink most alcohol, if only once, out of curiosity. That’s what made me try out Mad Dog 2020. Right before watching Jumping Jack Flash.
How many of *you* folks have had to ironically do a few drinks of Mad Dog, and spend the rest of the night hoping there really *was* a giant toothbrush in Jumping Jack Flash, or, that’s the end of the drinking for us?!
(Yes – there is a giant toothbrush in Jumping Jack Flash. I really did *know* that, but never trust Whoopi Goldberg not to throw in a visual that will break your brain, when you’re drinking weird sh!t.)
E
@MomSense: That isn’t what is happening though. People are getting pied for repeated bad-faith arguing, which is inevitable since for most of them this WHOLE THING is about Palestine. They want to “punish” Biden so they are screeching about his age etc. but rarely do they bring up their real issue because let’s face it, they’re doing Gaza no favors.
Eyeroller
@PatD: One of AOC’s points was about how wildly inaccurate her own internal polling was in her last primary. In the past few years they have turned out to be no better than public polling and often are worse. Some released recently are funded by agents with an agenda. That doesn’t “skew” polls but it can influence all sorts of things, from number of responses collected to questions asked to weighting factors.
theturtlemoves
Finally watched the entire thing. The only issue I had with it was her feeling the need to constantly say stuff like “I may be wrong”. Sucks that she felt she needed to keep throwing that in there to assuage critics. You definitely don’t see all the mediocre white male dipshits spearheading the treason caucus making those qualifications.
Juju
@Citizen Alan: I feel the same way, but I did.
Kristine
@Eyeroller: From one of the Bluesky threads. For what it’s worth, he’s not well thought of by these folks.
Nick P @npilon.bsky.social
·
10h
David Shor was the pollster pushing “popularism” through the 2022 cycle – the idea that if Dems embraced his specific poll-tested popular policy positions, their vote share would shoot up, and he could scientifically prove it
It turns out he was in bed with the effective altruism / longtermism guys. Like Sam Bankman-Fried, who made a big show of donating to Dems but was secretly donating more to the GOP. And who is now in prison because his crypto brokerage scam blew up.
Old School
@MomSense:
OK. Walk me through the plan.
The “most of us” see it as:
Biden stays in, uses the campaign infrastructure/funds already in place, and things progress as normal.
You see it as:
1.) Biden steps down.
2.) ????
Ishiyama
Joe Biden’s campaign leadership now includes the two people the donors find most objectionable:
Bernie Sanders and AOC. Bernie in the Senate, AOC in the House, if Joe manages to muddle through to victory, will be a formidable team.
“It’s an ill wind that blows nobody good.”
prostratedragon
@Ukai: Thanks so much for that song!
First comment: “Can I have the lyrics, please?”
OId Man Shadow
Spend 22 days and counting kneecapping your candidate, spend 22 days and counting stirring up and dividing the Democratic party, spend 22 days and counting repeating and amplifying GOP talking points to the media, push the most progressive president of my lifetime out to the ice floe, do it all without a plan, then either tag in the Black lady to run what will turn out to be the most disastrous election in party history or contested convention, stir up even MORE enmity in the party, install the GOP-lite central casting asshole and watch as they go down in flames and the party splits and never recovers.
We are just so brilliant.
It’s fucking Trump and the Appalachian Nazi. Get your shit together. They are beatable even by an 81 year-old man, ferChristssake.
Beatrice Blacklow
@Omnes Omnibus: Raskin. AOC and he are working together already.
Princess
@CHETAN R MURTHY: Yeah, that’s the tell for me. If they’re not saying “Not Biden but Harris” they’re saying “and not Harris either.” Eg. Schiff. If they could coalesce around her, Biden would probably step down. As it is even if he stepped aside for her, the chaos would continue between the pro and anti Harris people.
The only thing I can think is he’s planning to step down right before the early roll call vote so the anti-Harris people can’t organize. Or he’s staying in.
schrodingers_cat
@Villago Delenda Est: Its a PAC run by ratfucker Steve Schmidt who brought us Palin.
One of the Many Jens
@Beatrice Blacklow: Hell no.
Archon
@Old School: For people like Kay the idea is.
Now that sounds more like a hope than a plan but it’s infinitely better than the donor class “completely new ticket, it will work because I’m rich”. idea.
trollhattan
@Kristine:
This would not surprise me in the least. Russia and techbros, sharing ambitions.
zhena gogolia
@Eyeroller: Oh, shit. I thought she had some sense.
Chris
@CHETAN R MURTHY:
Well, he’s not wrong. But as you say, that ain’t happening. And they have no response to that.
Yesterday, there was a Lemieux post explaining that those of us who claimed that there was any disagreement on whether Biden should step down in favor of Harris (complete with a picture of Harris at the top just to drive the point home) Just Didn’t Understand that this was all bullshit and there was in fact “a high level agreement between all levels of the party.” … They then proceeded to quote various things showing that Everybody Wants Biden To Step Down… and absolutely nothing showing that Everybody Wants Harris To Step Up.
This, again, after not only specifically naming but highlighting the “replace Biden with Harris” part of the equation.
These people’s heads are spiraling completely out of control, and as the Lemieux post in particular demonstrates, they’re pretty much having to resort to outright lying to cover the “??????” part of their Underpants Gnome theory.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodingers_cat: Well, that’s not really that surprising.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Steve LaBonne: Excellent. I received a survey email from him this morning asking about my major concerns, and I wrote in no uncertain terms that he needed to clearly support Biden and not negate my vote.
Martin
The problem with being invested in this situation is that you’re convincing yourself to be pissed at half the Democratic establishment and/or the party entirely, regardless of what side of the situation you’re on.
zhena gogolia
@Old School: You won’t get an answer to that. I’ve tried already.
E
@theturtlemoves: that’s because the bulk of her audience was young pro-Palestine activists. I firmly believe AOC is an Obama-level political genius. I hope she gets a bigger theater some day.
O. Felix Culpa
@LAC:
I am vulnerable to the desire TO BE RIGHT, both on the blog and IRL. I get it, I really do. It’s a character trait that can be helpful in some circumstances, and damn awful in others. I’ve also been on the blog a looong time, although not always a frequent commenter. :)
I felt that the allyship question was important to reiterate, because the “Kamala for President” proponents seem to blow past–that is, completely ignore–the concerns laid out by POC, LGBTQ+ and other vulnerable community voices on this blog. Naive of me, perhaps, but I’m shocked at the complete disregard that’s been displayed. Don’t need to agree necessarily, but at least acknowledge our arguments and concerns; you know, our existence. It’s been revelatory.
Villago Delenda Est
@Old School: You say you want a revolution well you know
We’d all love to see the plan
schrodingers_cat
@Kristine: He is a charlatan. His data analysis is hinky.
Geminid
@Xentik: I have no idea what the majority of donors want. The media environment we have all seen tends to amplify any and all anti-Biden activity so how could I? I’m staying away from unsupported assumptions in this matter because people are using them to support their own viewpoints, as advocates often do.
I happen to agree with Rep. Ocasio-Cortez on the underlying question, but she is an advocate here and I’m not taking her word on the donor question as definititive.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@guachi:
Let me know when you’re competent. You have been raving like a loonie for the last couple of weeks and acting as if you speak for all voters. You seem to think that repetition is going to convince people here to switch to your side. You are not letting up and it is more than clear that you are not here just to express your concerns.
You’re here to change opinion and that makes you a legitimate target for ridicule and derision. You’ve said your piece over and over again to the point that I think almost everyone here could repeat it in their sleep.
We see that you are on a mission here and we’re going to keep clubbing your ass until the end.
Old School
@Archon:
And that’s not considering Xentik’s argument that Harris cannot be considered a certainty and the inevitable lawsuits that Harris/Kelly is not legally able to use Biden/Harris funds.
@zhena gogolia:
I know. You inspired me to try.
Princess
@Martin: Wow, you’re sooooo close to getting it.
E
I would be interested to hear from knowledgeable parties what the likelihood is of the Supreme Court NOT being involved in some way if Biden leaves the ticket.
Ishiyama
@Villago Delenda Est: you say you want a contribution, well you know, we’re all doing what we can.
zhena gogolia
Well, my friends in a certain East European country do say, “Oh, you say an entire country can go insane? Tell me about it.” But they have some excuse, after centuries of warfare and tyranny.
Eyeroller
@Kristine: Now I see why S.C. called him a “charlatan” in an earlier thread and just upthread again here.
He’s another of Obama’s guys.
Xentik
@Martin: Because prior to the debate they didn’t think they had a chance of unseating Biden. These people are without a doubt the same ones who supported Dean Phillips in the primary and probably the ones begging Manchin to run under No Labels.
Do you not remember Ezra Klein talking about how great a contested convention would be a while back? The huge media push to declare Biden too old before the SOTU too. They stopped after SOTU but were clearly desperate to pounce at the first stumble.
@Eyeroller: Oy, how can anyone think that is a good idea?
tam1MI
@Kay: Except that now we know that Biden’s one condition for dropping out was that the politicos calling for him to drop out endorse Harris and they refused.
And now we know why they were so conspicuously silent about her.
Martin
@Princess: So why is everyone volunteering to help by being pissed at Democrats?
One of the Many Jens
@Old School: Side note – I don’t get the desire for Kelly on the ticket. I like him fine, but then we’d lose all chance to keep the Senate.
LAC
@O. Felix Culpa: I am not criticizing what you are saying. I agree completely. It would be refreshing if our voices did not have to be so loud to be heard over long time folks who want apologies for being challenged or want to repeat the same post over and over and over again.
Thank you
O. Felix Culpa
@LAC: I understand. It’s just been painful. I appreciate your response.
Omnes Omnibus
I am starting to wonder if the vehemence on the part of some of the Biden must step down people comes from the fact that they soured on him over Gaza and saw the debate as an opportunity.
Old School
@One of the Many Jens: I picked Kelly because one of Dump Biden gang keeps using him as the potential ticket.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: What do these people who want to disenfranchise us for their vibes want? A cookie? A ticker tape parade?
They can wait until hell freezes over. Because its not going to happen. Why should I waste my time listening to someone who refuses to listen and is disrespectful of me.
theturtlemoves
@E: That’s a very good point. I should have thought of that when she joked about being called a neo-lib sellout and how if she wanted to really sell out she wouldn’t be doing what she’s doing. She’s really grown on me over the years.
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: You are not alone.
Eyeroller
@Xentik: There is a faction of donors, some definitely involved in crypto scams (Mike Novogratz in particular) who funded Dean Phillip’s primary run and are funding various anti-Biden PACs like Pass the Torch and Next Generation Dems or something like that. Whether they are also withholding donations from “real” Dems I do not know.
Chris
@Kristine:
See, this is why Democrats, and left-liberals in general, are paranoid.
They have, as it turns out, a lot to be paranoid about!
Meanwhile, in places like California, we’re apparently at the point where Republicans simply run people as Democrats and count on low information in the general populace plus the influx of reactionary voters to give them a shot.
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Some of them were sour on Biden before Gaza. Check out their comments since 2020 Presidential primaries.
Archon
@Odie Hugh Manatee: There is no way Cacti or Guachi (assuming they aren’t the same person) is trying to convince anyone with that patronizing, repetitive tone. They aren’t that delusional (at least I hope not). No, they are setting up the ultimate “I told you so!”, if Biden loses. Probably gets them a dopamine hit just thinking about it.
Eyeroller
@One of the Many Jens: They want a white person from a “battleground” state.
lowtechcyclist
I just called the office of my Congressman, Steny Hoyer, to express my gratitude for House Democratic Leader Jeffries’ remarks in support of Biden, and to convey my hope that this puts an end to the past three weeks of bullshit about whether Biden should step down. I reiterated that he’s shown he can do the job by doing it, that he’s been the best President of my 70-year lifetime, and that the idea that one bad night should negate all that is just absurd.
In other news, the weather in the DC area has turned amazingly pleasant, and I had a very relaxing bike ride this afternoon. Yeah, it was actually nice enough in the afternoon to go riding. Normally in the summer I make a point of starting a ride early enough that I can get back to the house by 11am if not earlier, because the afternoon can be a bit much. But today the afternoon was and is pleasant.
Chris
@tam1MI:
Link? (I believe it, mind you, it totally clicks with everything we know so far).
Mike in NC
Every campaign appearance by the Biden/Harris ticket needs to shove the Project 2025 horror down Fat Bastard’s throat until he pukes on it. Trump and Vance are selling that Heritage Foundation crap which is a blueprint for fascist dictatorship which can never be undone. Any clown calling themself a “Christian Nationalist” is a dead giveaway.
mrstealyourcostcosample
how do I pie filter again? yeesh
Omnes Omnibus
@O. Felix Culpa: Speaking as a straight white guy, I do see the push coming primarily from my demographic. And a few women of similar hue and orientation.
Geminid
@One of the Many Jens: Kelly would keep his seat until he was sworn in as Vice President, and then Katie Hobbs appoint someone who would then come up for reelection in 2026.
But Kelly’s selection would disappoint people who have their own favorites. This is one of smaller problems involved with changing the ticket.
KatKapCC
@Omnes Omnibus: Anyone who “soured on Biden over Gaza” and would be OK with maybe throwing the election to Trump is not living in reality, because Trump would be way worse on the issue, and therefore that person doesn’t actually give a darn about Gaza.
MomSense
@E:
Palestine is also an issue. I commented a couple months or maybe a month ago (time eludes me lately) that I was concerned by what it might mean for Michigan and a number of young people I know who had voted for Biden but he was losing. I know it’s an issue for Kay and in the early days after the debate she was still of the opinion that Biden should stay at the top of the ticket. There is nothing bad faith about concern over both how the Israel:Palestine issue and Biden’s age affect the election. I’ve been trying to tell people I know who are upset with Biden over Palestine that even though I disagree with how this has been handled, Trump absolutely made the conditions leading to Oct 7 worse by moving the embassy to Jerusalem and by ending the security agreement with Iran. That was a massive, destabilizing blunder by the trump administration.
Our challenge is that we only won the electoral college by about 45,000 votes in 2020. The margins were terrifying. A couple votes per precinct in swing states can decide the election. All of these issues matter and MI is a must win.
lowtechcyclist
Has anyone seen a transcript of TCFG’s speech last night as he actually gave it? I’ve been able to find the transcript of his speech as prepared ahead of time, but by all accounts those are two very different things.
And there’s no way I can put up with actually listening to that abominable man for an hour and a half, or however long it ran, to find out what he actually said. I have a hard enough time listening to him for a minute or two.
Old School
@mrstealyourcostcosample:
TaMara gave the instructions in the post. Helpfully right by the pie filter.
E.
@KatKapCC: hang out in on-line progressive circles and you will see these people in large numbers. Who do you think AOC was talking to in that instagram chat? Yup.
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes, I do too. And I’m grateful for those like you who step up in allyship and in your own convictions. The summer soldiers and sunshine patriots have been seen.
One of the Many Jens
@Martin: Well, yeah. You can’t credibly advocate for democracy against fascism by disregarding the results of the *actual voting.* So yeah, I’m right pissed.
Princess
@Omnes Omnibus: some people in here, yes. Interesting that not Bernie and AOC.
lowtechcyclist
@mrstealyourcostcosample:
There’s a box at the end of TaMara’s post that contains the instructions.
Steve in the ATL
@theturtlemoves:
Phrases like this seem to appear a lot on threads where Omnes and I post. Just a coincidence, I’m sure.
Omnes Omnibus
@KatKapCC: I agree. But they think Harris can win and that she would be better. It’s Solazzo taking out Vito because he thought Sonny would go for the drug deal.
E.
@MomSense: Oh I agree with you there, it’s just that are these folks going to be satisfied with Biden’s scalp or will they want more?
TaMara
@Kay: Biden has said, in unequivocal terms that he’s the nominee. How does continuing to try and split the party help anyone but MAGA?
Help me out here.
And sure you were a delegate in 08, but maybe things have changed in the last 16 years??
Josie
@Glidwrith:
Thanks, but WaterGirl is sending some. You might check with her by email to see if anyone else needs help with stamps. Your generosity is appreciated.
Old School
@lowtechcyclist:
I believe this is one at the Times. (I don’t have an account.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Dipshits is taking it a bit far. Doofuses is probably more accurate.
One of the Many Jens
@Geminid: You’re right, I brain-farted.
Steve in the ATL
@TaMara:
If you’re talking about my waistline and hairlines I’m a little offended. Not that you’re wrong….
Princess
@MomSense: I think it’s nuts to think that Harris (or anyone else) is going to display a sufficiently different position on Palestine that those voters will return. If people want to throw the dice and toss Biden for that reason, they are going to be very disappointed.
Xentik
@MomSense: If the Arab/Muslim community in MI won’t vote for Biden, why would they vote for Harris? She is a member of his administration and she isn’t going to agree to cut off Israel outright on day one. No candidate for President in the US will in this decade, if ever.
I had this discussion with a friend in that community the other day. If they sit out there are two possibilities:
Neither of those accomplish their stated goal.
Trump campaign sent someone to talk to them and they were telling them how great it would be when Israel cleared all that valuable beachfront property of Palestinians.
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
If I recall correctly, you had been off the blog for a while. Therefore you wouldn’t have known when you returned that the questions you were raising had already been reiterated eleventy times daily for close to two weeks, and many were sick unto death of it. The blowback you got was really unfortunate and not your fault, but somewhat understandable under the circumstances, i.e. people had heard the questions, had mulled over the various concerns and risks, and were hoping desperately to move on. Alas, the shitty gift of this election keeps on giving, and we’re still not able to move on. I hope that we get resolution soonest, so that relative peace can be restored and we can turn to fighting fascism.
SomeRandomGuy
@MomSense: I don’t know that it’s entirely ridiculous.
Let me tell you what *I* saw. You can say “that’s not what happened!” but, I’m not arguing whether there’s some grand, objective, capital-T TRUTH about what happened. This is *me*. My experience.
One day after the debate, I started hearing the stupidest-ass bullshit I ever did hear, that Biden should drop out because something something OLD MAN something something something so he had to drop out.
Now, I watched that debate. I know there was nothing in it that suggested he had to drop out. So if you suggested, to me, that he had to drop out, without a single lick of evidence, I’d have called you a coward, a fool, and possibly a lot of other names, *not* because I dislike you, but because:
1) a coward does the wrong thing (shitcan Biden) out of fear.
2) a fool does stupid things (like shitcanning Biden), and
3) it’s really frustrating to argue with people who don’t have any evidence on their side, but think that entitles them to keep speaking as if they were informed.
I can’t say that you didn’t argue cogently, well, and honorably for your position. I don’t know – I don’t remember seeing your name pasted on a turd, but I don’t remember seeing it on a gem either. But I know you didn’t post a good, solid, well-supported argument for Biden leaving, because no such argument exists, without far more evidence than any of us has in our possession.
And if saying he should leave angered people, well, I’m sorry. It should have. You didn’t have facts on your side, and said something really nasty.
Sometimes, you’re wrong, about important things, and, when that happens, people get angry. I mean, if I wept every time people got angry and called me names and said they’d never listen to me ever again, well… okay, fine, you get used to it after 20, 30 years. I hope you don’t have to, but trust me: everyone can hate you, and you can still live.
Well, what if I’m wrong? I might be proven factually incorrect about Biden – he might die tomorrow, rather than survive another four years, as I expect – but I’d still argue, it is better for Harris to pick up his standard from his grave, than to let him commit political seppuku with Harris holding the katana.
That said: I’m sorry there wasn’t a better, kinder, way to hold a discussion, in which fewer people were hurt. Pain is rarely needed, and there’s almost always a better way. I reckon pies will be stored, eventually.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: fair point. And where does “chucklefucks” fall on the spectrum?
zhena gogolia
@KatKapCC: Yeah. I’ve tried that too. It goes nowhere.
jackmac
I’ve never pied anyone before, but it sure came in handy yesterday when I applied the tool to a troll (name starts with the letter G).
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: I think that is reserved for Baud.
Chris
@TaMara:
Also, maybe being a delegate in conventions with clear primary winners endorsed by their opponents is a lot different from being a delegate in a convention where the primary choices have been thrown out and you’re literally being asked to pick the next President yourself.
zhena gogolia
@jackmac: I almost never used pie before June 27. Now I find it keeps my blood pressure amazingly low.
zhena gogolia
@Chris: Without benefit of the voters.
zhena gogolia
How about that speech last night, folks? Think it means Trump should step aside for someone younger???
Old School
@Old School:@lowtechcyclist:
The transcript is here as well.
moonbat
@Chet Murthy: Anthropologist/pedant here. Not disputing what that book had in it. Given the time it was written, it is quite likely that is what it said, but that is not actually how foraging societies operate. They tend to be egalitarian and the hunting and gathering spoils are shared equally among the group. Some groups like the San peoples of southern Africa even swap weapons on the regular so that no one person can take all credit for a kill since the animal was killed with someone else’s arrow.
Now, once you get to tribal level organization, all bets are off.
lowtechcyclist
@Old School:
Thanks, but the FTFNYT insists on payment before I can see it. Not happening.
Geminid
@KatKapCC: Some people who fault Biden’s policies on Gaza still might want Harris because she is thought to be more sympathetic to Palestinians than is Biden. That may include some Democrats here, and this factor could be influencing their views on the replacement question.
But the anti-Biden folks here are very diverse. Some are hostile to the Democratic Party and come here just to fish in troubled waters. I can think of one who says he’s a Stein voter if Biden heads the ticket, but that he could get behind Harris. That would last until her acceptance speech, I believe. When she doesn’t give him what he wants on Israel/Gaza policy he’ll revert to Stein.
opiejeanne
@RaflW: From Twitter today, and I’m unable to copy and paste it, so, sorry about some paraphrasing:
Dr C. Rowser, D.A.M.A sposted that at least 2 REPUBLICAN Representatives have called on the cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment, and asked Johnson to join them. Republican congressmen.
Speaker Johnson refused to be directly involved, saying he does not disagree but that this is up to the VP and cabinet to make that call
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: The only thing I know about Baud for sure is that he is a lawyer. Like you and Steve-in-wherever.
LanceThruster
I still find it remarkable that mega-donors reluctant to sink more money into the Biden campaign is framed as blackmail.
My opinion is that Joe winning this battle might end up losing the war, but that’s the nature of eleven-dimensional chess. But you can’t argue with results so in Joe’s own words… “Bring it, pal,”
TaMara
@Chris: Well, it worked so well in 68 and 80
/s
lowtechcyclist
@Old School: Thanks, that one works for me!
TaMara
@zhena gogolia: Or maybe, sane?
Ruckus
@different-church-lady:
Selecting one human out of 300+ million humans to be the leader will always have positives and minuses, because there is no perfect human, not even the one we all see in a mirror, or possibly the one we falsely remember we think we once saw in a mirror. Being human automatically means we have faults. They may be minor or they may be huge, they are still faults. We accept some of them, if we are not so self centered that we think we have zero or close to zero faults and we, as we age, either forget them or work on at least making them not harmful. But we still have them. And some are lucky to have some skill that others do not have or is way above average level. I could play basketball – decently, maybe even well. But not even close to a professional level. I raced motorcycles – and have trophies. But I was not even close to the top of that food chain either.
When I was a kid we had retired next door neighbors. He had worked for I, seem to remember, Standard Oil and had traveled around much of the world, also if I remember looking for oil, but as management. He spoke 5 languages fluently, and his wife was amazing as well. They were in their late 80s over 65 yrs ago and his concepts of how this world was, was both more and less than school tried to make us believe. In all of my travels around much of this world I have to say – he was correct. Humanity as a whole is pretty much the same everywhere I’ve traveled. And I’ve been way north of the Arctic Circle and almost to the Antarctic Circle and a fair bit more than half way around the world. I’ve listened to many different languages being spoken, and enjoyed around 99% of the humans I’ve met in my travels. I’ve been given rides by strangers, and talked to many of the people I’ve met, from an ice cream cart vendor in Europe, to a waitress not far from the Antarctic Circle in the Pacific. From the 2 guys that pulled switch blades on 6 of us in Naples, Italy to people that I would have been proud to call my friends in hundreds of other cities and towns. Those 2 guys in Naples don’t go on the list, but they closed their switchblades and the 6 of us did walk away with the same amount of money we started with, so a win.
My point is that humanity ranges from very good to pure shit, with the vast majority somewhere in the middle. And if we recognize that none of us are perfect (and some are a far longer way from it), and if we at least try to understand that being human can be work and requires at least some effort, we are 90% there.
bbleh
@Ironcity: I don’t know. Best way to check those organizations is go to the FEC site and look at their EXPENDITURES. If they’re not registered at the FEC, run away! Even if they are, but most of their expenditures are to various consulting and service organizations and not to candidates, also run away! I just donate through ActBlue. No “700% match!” but a lot of those ARE scams and ActBlue is legit.
Omnes Omnibus
@moonbat: That sounds awfully like they are unionized. Does Steve in the WTF know about this? Hey, was he in South Africa recently?
Jay
Biden’s economy is so strong kid rock and hulk hogan found jobs.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: Believe me, lawyers know about chucklefucks.
Geminid
@One of the Many Jens: That is understandable. Everyone is really jumpy now.
One of the Many Jens
@moonbat: Very cool field you work in! And thanks for the info on the San peoples. So if you were to share the most interesting thing you learned this month in your field, what would it be?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t think Biden has done enough to challenge Israel on Gaza. I still emphatically think he should be the nominee.
You’ll notice a similar trend among the electeds. Those who challenged him on Gaza are predominantly standing by him.
jefft452
@Archon: “One thing I would consider is going public with these threats of rich people abandoning the entire party and making their peace with fascism unless they dump Biden.”
Which would also help Biden in the general
Spanky
We’re going to Tbogg this sucker, aren’t we?
Omnes Omnibus
@TaMara: It’s the GOP. They can do younger, but they can’t do sane.
Old School
@LanceThruster:
It’s mega-donors saying they won’t give to congressmen until they denounce Biden. So you’re right, it isn’t blackmail. It’s more of a bribe.
Chris
@moonbat:
Where’s the line between “hunter gatherer society” and “tribal level organizations?”
(Not disagreeing, just curious. I am not an anthropologist except maybe in the most amateur sense possible).
O. Felix Culpa
@zhena gogolia: @TaMara:
Oh, you crazy kids. :)
Omnes Omnibus
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I had one or two commenters on this blog in mind as I typed that.
SomeRandomGuy
@zhena gogolia: If BP gets too low, you can take everything I say with a grain of salt, which should increase pressure into the normal range.
MomSense
@Old School:
Biden steps down and Harris becomes the nominee. I don’t think any other person can bring our coalition back together.
I honestly don’t think Biden is capable of campaigning effectively. I know the majority here see it differently but I don’t think the interviews or press conference went well. They were much, much better than the debate but not great. I saw some clips of 2016 and 2020 Biden and the difference stands out.
Regardless of how this shakes out we are going to have to work hard.
OId Man Shadow
I really should give up on the expectation that we’ll get our shit together and unite and fight the real enemy. We’re going into August at least doing this internecine warfare.
Four more months of watching a train wreck slowly happen except I’m on the train with my loved ones.
Weeeeeeeeeeee!
O. Felix Culpa
@Spanky: We can but try.
mrmoshpotato
@zhena gogolia:
Younger and saner? Oh, wait, that’s not necessarily possible.
Omnes Omnibus
@LanceThruster: Extortion then?
TaMara
@Spanky: It would be my first!
ssdd
@Spanky: I’m doing my part!
O. Felix Culpa
@TaMara: Well then, we’ve got to get on it!
How are the critters doing?
w_seattle
@Jay: But what about Ted Nugent?
jefft452
@Westyny: in more then one state even
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: I say what I’ve been saying for at least 25 years, fuck the big donors.
The ongoing attempted palace coup is one of the clearest cases I’ve ever seen of money having too much influence while voters are ignored.
OId Man Shadow
And they have their eyes on the prize and are united behind him even though he’s a doddering old fool.
TaMara
@O. Felix Culpa: I just did an update over on my writer’s blog of a momentous month for us here.
Furry Friday update here
zhena gogolia
@OId Man Shadow: Exactly.
Chris
@TaMara:
The hell of it is, I can actually just imagine it working this time! The fear of imminent fascism and the combination of Project 2025 and the recent Supreme Court decisions, if properly deployed, might actually be enough to get people who normally would never come together after something like this to say “this is too important. Just hand me the fucking ballot.”
But, well, that’s still a hell of a gamble, it still flies in the face of all our previous experience when it comes to the subject, and the case for why it’s true and how it can be done hasn’t been made. Given the fact that the polls have been fairly static for three weeks and Biden’s public appearances fairly normal, the case hasn’t even been made that the situation is extraordinary enough to warrant the extreme measures! Unless “the situation” is “I am going to continue screaming and shitting myself in public all the way to November unless the rest of you agree to dump Biden, because I simply refuse to consider that I might be wrong about this, and refuse to accept that the party might not jump my way.”
zhena gogolia
@OId Man Shadow: Yep.
Oh, but he’s just as young and vibrant as he was in 2016 and 2020! They don’t give a fuck. Just win, baby. (to quote someone I now can’t stand)
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@schrodingers_cat: I was sour on him during the 2020 primaries. To the point I was considering my last desperate political act, a hunger strike.
I am a Biden convert. I’m here to tell you if you keep picking at these various chips on your shoulders, they’ll get infected.
Kathleen
@Percysowner: My congressman in OH#! Greg Landsman said today Biden should quit the race. His earlier statements were weasel word cat fur ball salad but I guest the donors got to him. I left message saying I didn’t appreciate him stabbing Biden in the back and I would vote for him but not donate. Wasn’t sure what Sherrod’s position was so I’ll call on Monday.
O. Felix Culpa
@OId Man Shadow:
My theory–and my fervent hope–is that the dust will settle no later than the convention’s virtual nomination, which still feels like an eternity from now, alas. Once that’s done, the identity of our candidate is a fait accompli and we can move on to real election work. Unless the money people successfully insert a new name. Then all bets are off.
KatKapCC
@zhena gogolia: Neverrrrr!! Don’t you know that Democrats and Republicans age differently? It’s like dogs and humans. Trump is actually only 36 and Biden is 174. SCIENCE!
TaMara
@O. Felix Culpa: And not to pad the comments, but I’m also working on my very first New Zealand meat pie. Actually a couple of flavors.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: you know that I go to Cape Town as much as I can—love that place—and now the trips will be a business expense as I work on decertifying the San union. Thanks for the business development tip!
LanceThruster
@Chris: she let down the people who elected her by not supporting Force the Vote like she said she would. I liked that her campaign unseated someone expected to be next speaker. Shecworked very hard. I had quite a favorable opinion of her but it’s faded a bit. The pics of her crying at the chain link (kids in cages) was staged but not too egregious. The Mama Bear stuff was nausea inducing. This vid to me isn’t an example of super smarts but more of word salad.
MisterForkbeard
@Spanky: One can dream
Old School
@KatKapCC:
It’s because Trump doesn’t exercise, so he’s used up less of his heartbeats.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Beware the socialist arrows.
O. Felix Culpa
@TaMara:
Thank you! You have a lovely four-footed family. Two-footed and two-winged too, counting the ducks.
Eyeroller
@Kathleen: I would give Brown and Tester a pass. But it has been pointed out that a lot of the backstabbers in the House are in safe blue districts, which strikes me as odd, so I’m not sure what the game is.
theturtlemoves
@Omnes Omnibus: I mean, I’m in that very demographic myself. I like to think I’m slightly better than mediocre but opinions vary on that.
SomeRandomGuy
@KatKapCC: You forget the need to consume the blood of virgins, in keeping with Trump’s deal with the devil. He keeps taking his “friends” words’ for their virginity (oh, come now, of course they lie! They’re *REPUBLICANS*!), and that’s why his skin is so horribly pale.
O. Felix Culpa
@TaMara: Sounds yummy! How is it distinctively New Zealand? The inclusion of lamb? I suspect consumption of a meat pie can cause padding of other sorts. :)
Geminid
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Your morale seems to improved over the weeks since you stepped away from here, and that’s a good thing.
I also notice that you and and a former foe are on the same page regarding the issue of the day. I see you two Bay Staters fighting for Biden, shoulder to shoulder (sort of), and I’m like, Awww.
Omnes Omnibus
@theturtlemoves: We all like to think we are better than mediocre.
delphinium
@Old School: LOL
O. Felix Culpa
@Geminid: Sweet, innit? ;-)
Omnes Omnibus
@SomeRandomGuy: Isn’t that the premise of Jennifer’s Body? Is this some kind of sick, straight to video sequel?
theturtlemoves
@Omnes Omnibus: My cat seems to think I’m pretty cool, but cats are hard to trust.
MomSense
@O. Felix Culpa:
I don’t think Twitter or this blog are good ways of evaluating how people think. My friends from the bus (I commuted by bus for a long time to work) are a small group of asylum seekers who are black and Muslim. There are 5 of us who group text and they all think Biden shouldn’t be the nominee because of the debate. The immigrant center where I volunteer is a much larger group but I only regularly volunteer with a small group who do voter registration and they are all concerned. None of them know which path is best. My kids’ LGBTQ friends like almost all of their friends stopped supporting Biden over Palestine. It is a huge issue with that age cohort in part because the organizing is largely via social media. This is all anecdata as is Twitter support. I don’t think any of us can credibly accuse each other of bad allyship especially with current polling. We don’t all accept polling.
Spanky
@theturtlemoves: As a gray haired white guy myself, I’m confident my ideas are right before I even think them.
moonbat
@Martin: I can be pissed and write postcards at the same time. lol
lowtechcyclist
It may be the middle of summer, but it looks like we’re just about ready to go TBogg-aning. ;-)
(500 is the magic number, right?)
moonbat
@Omnes Omnibus: That is ENTIRELY it, in my opinion.
zhena gogolia
TRUMP WILL BE THE BEST PRESIDENT FOR LGBTQ AND PALESTINIANS! TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!!! HE’LL BE JUST GREAT!!!
Princess
I’m just here for TBogg now.
Omnes Omnibus
@Princess: We all are.
M31
nice try, WaterGirl, with your shiny new post up
GET IN LOSERS, WE’RE GOING TBOGGING
Old School
@delphinium:
Sorry, it was energy.
schrodingers_cat
Is it only me that finds all this outpouring of love for Kamala H from the usual suspects in the Dump Biden Brigade a tad unconvincing. They are experts on everything including the prejudice KH will face if she replaces Biden. And they just brush aside your lived experience.
It would be comic if the stakes of their snit fit weren’t so high. Why would you be worried, no one is calling you any names.
lowtechcyclist
Is this #500? ETA: Nope, beaten to it!
Steve in the ATL
@SomeRandomGuy: you may not have been around when valued—and hilarious the more she drinks—commenter different-church-lady posted that she was drinking cheap scotch and ginger ale. Surprisingly, she was able to post again this morning.
Captain C
A TBogg and a successful tie dye program at work. Not a bad day at all.
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
My concern is that the strongest insert-Kamala voices here don’t even engage with or respond to the representative minority voices on this blog. Who also post comments from leaders in their respective communities, so not just personal opinions, which still count for something.
Allyship involves listening to and acknowledging other people’s concerns, especially those of people in vulnerable communities. That’s not happening. You don’t have to agree, but you should at least show you’ve tried to listen. I’m not seeing that here. I see total disregard for people’s lived experiences rooted in the history of the United States, especially those of the Black community. So I feel justified in calling out bad allyship.
Again, you’ve missed a lot of context. I hope you continue to be happy in your new house.
divF
@MomSense: What do they say when you talk to them about Project 2025? I’m not being snarky, but truly puzzled. A failure to vote for Biden = Trump winning, which for LGBTQ folx means something between forced chemical “therapies” to rid them of their disorder (y’know, like they did to Alan Turing) to being herded onto boxcars to the camps.
ssdd
500! Time for a celebratory screwdriver!
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
I never soured on Biden. His performance at the debate and the way his campaign screwed up and then attacked other democrats instead of dealing with their fuck up really pisses me off. I voted for him in the primaries as well. I feel duped.
One of the Many Jens
@zhena gogolia: Not to mention civil rights, labor rights, quality medical care for women and many vulnerable others, what hopes there are for a livable future climate….
moonbat
@One of the Many Jens: My specialty is predynastic Egypt and one of the cooler things I’ve been working on lately is the imagery on decorated pottery vessels. I think they represent mini religious biographies, sort of like Hajj murals.
PatD
@Old School: You don’t proceed as normal when Biden is losing in the swing states. Even Biden recognizes that which is why he is desperate enough to float Supreme Court reforms in a bid to win back soft and undecided voters. There is nothing Biden can do right now that Harris can’t do better.
Juju
@lowtechcyclist: You should actually watch for a few minutes. To me, it seemed like one of the dementia rants my mother has almost daily.
schrodingers_cat
Zoe L, Rep from Washington
So much for the theory of Kamala Harris being a shoo in.
PatD
@Eyeroller: You see, these people in safe blue seats want to win control of the House.
moonbat
@Chris: Tribal level social organization usually arises when you have a larger population and they are supporting themselves, at least in part, by small scale farming or animal herding. The are marked by big lineage groups — extended families that share allegiance to a real or fictive distant ancestor.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat: Yes. Disgusting. “A coronation.” As she throws out 14 million votes.
Juju
@One of the Many Jens: Or do you have cognitive issues?
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Geminid: Eh, I’m still purposefully avoiding her. An issue is an issue and her’s is she’s kinda cruel and obsessive.
One of the Many Jens
@moonbat: Oh wow, that is very cool, thank you!
O. Felix Culpa
@schrodingers_cat:
Whoever it would be, the attack ads would write themselves and the dismay among Democratic voters would be catastrophic. The oligarchs foreign and domestic will have succeeded in splitting the party, perhaps for good.
Gotta get off now. Rehashing this topic on infinite loop is not good for my spirits. Folding laundry is looking attractive. Ciao.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: The dump Biden insert Kamala people are living in their own lala land.
Geminid
@Eyeroller: My breakdown is that about half the Democrats calling for Biden to step aside are relatively new Reps in “battleground districts.” About half are more senior members in safe like Schiff, Jim Himes (CT) and Adam Smith (WA).
Then we have outliers like Lloyd Doggett (TX) and and Raul Grijalva, crusty old Progressives. These two kind spoil ideological analyses, and when Doggett spoke out he was tagged as a Blue Dog. When that was disputed, someone tried to portray Doggett as a sort of Crypto-Blue Dog, faking his progressivism to satisfy his liberal Austin constituents.
That analysis fell apart when Texans weighed in and said no, Doggett’s been an outspoken liberal for 40 years. The same thing happened with Grijalva.
But I think that aside from people in purple districts who are “triangulating” to win over Independents, this is more a matter of character than ideology.
The ones triangulating, like Tester, and Gluesenkamp Perez, are on the moderate side of their Caucuses, but that comes with being a Democratic politician in a purple (or red) state or district I think, and not some fundamental split in the Democratic party.
Kathleen
@Eyeroller: Landsman’s district is purple. I will take your advice about Sherrod. I didn’t know Biden had given red state pols the go ahead to campaign against him which is Bidenesque. Thanks.
Elizabelle
@O. Felix Culpa: Fabulous letter! Well done.
And “hork” is the perfect word to use.
One of the Many Jens
@Juju: Ha! Evidently a little one!
PatD
@zhena gogolia: She hasn’t thrown out any votes. The choice is entirely Biden’s and if he chooses to leave it’s because he accepts the argument that he can no longer win this race and do the job for another 4 years.
PatD
@schrodingers_cat: If Biden were to die next week (obviously not statistically impossible) the obvious replacement is Harris. You should not be so dismissive of her prospects.
ssdd
@zhena gogolia: No shit. I will support a “mini-primary” as long as Harris starts with the 14 million votes from the actual primaries.
Bill Arnold
@Old School:
Yeah, I poked at that too a bit. The discussions about Trump’s human battery theory appears to have provoked some people to talk about the heartbeats at the time.
Don’t know how far back that goes. Maybe to Neil Armstrong:
“I believe that every human has a finite amount of heartbeats. I don’t intend to waste any of mine running around doing exercises.” ― Neil Armstrong
UncleEbeneezer
@O. Felix Culpa: Well said and thank you for sharing that.
Sure Lurkalot
@NeenerNeener: The Senate map is not favorable to Dems this cycle so why anyone would push Mark Kelly to give up his Senate seat in the at best toss up state of Arizona is not (IMHO) seriously thinking.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@PatD: You should not be so dismissive of Harris’s choice not to run for President.
MomSense
@divF:
I don’t know that my kids talk to their LGBTQ friends about project 25 but I do follow a lot of them on Instagram and I have seen some posts about it. I see a lot more posts from them about Palestine and also about what it is like to live at the end of an empire. There is also this multi slide post about resistance that I am seeing everywhere. It seems defeatist to me but I do get why the Millennials and Zoomers feel so forsaken. They are looking at impossible housing, a totally fucked climate future, SCOTUS, Dobbs , and other issues and they can’t believe we expect them to keep playing a game that has been so stacked against them. When I try to explain they often call me an apologist for Democrats.
There are a lot of posts about Biden which are not flattering at all. That was the case way before the debate and it’s only worse now. None of them like trump but I don’t think they see the contrast that we do. There are a lot of videos about how ridiculous it is that the choices are both old white guys.
It’s complicated. .
Omnes Omnibus
@PatD: I see that you have trouble with metaphors, similes, allusions and the like.
UncleEbeneezer
I just realized I may have to start wearing my “Biden won. Get over it!” tee shirt again. It was originally intended to trigger MAGA tears, but it may be even more appropriate now!
Eyeroller
@moonbat: Gaza may have been a major issue at Balloon Juice but not in the larger realm. I think the donor class saw this as an opportunity. They have different grievances with Biden depending on their main concern, which is one reason for the incoherence.
Take it with a grain of salt, but I think Zoe Lofgren was stating what the “Democratic Leadership” is coalescing around as their “plan,” at least according to some report I saw on X/Nitter but now cannot find. That is the “miniprimary” where different candidates would present to Obama and Bill Clinton and then delegates would decide, I guess. No rank-and-file voters needed. I would like to know who these “leaders” are since hopefully we can scratch Jeffries off the traitor list now. But those “leaders” hide in the shadows.
I’d have at least a modicum of respect for the dump-Biden Democrats if the leaders would be open and honest about it. But they are sneaking around, issuing non-denial denials, and having a handful of House members and maybe one or two Senators a day announce, just to keep it in the news and displace Trump. They are shameful and they are the ones “destroying the party,” not Biden.
Steve in the ATL
@moonbat: I’ve been to Egypt and I don’t think the word or concept of “cooler” ever came up!
Omnes Omnibus
@Geminid: I think there is a fundamental split, but it is not on ideological lines. It is attitudinal.
delphinium
Well except for winning over racists and misogynists. But in any case, there doesn’t seem to be an overall consensus yet that if Biden steps down that Harris will be the nominee.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I don’t care if the palace coup serves up the nominee of my dreams. I’m voting for Biden/Harris.
Bupalos
@Other MJS: you missed the main point that she hit over and over: people on both sides of this have good arguments, share common goals, and are arguing in good faith. Not a popular sentiment here so not surprised it’s not a takeaway despite it being like every other sentence. Along with random filters and instagram animations and effects showing up.
I can’t say she impressed me with her clarity of thought or communication but what she lacks there she does make up for in earnestness and candor. I like that she brought up what no one seems to consider: the type of people who want to be president (which includes Harris) may not want to take that shot in this environment. All the names people float including Harris may not want to do it. And I’ve assumed it’s true that people going into this process would probably like to get to a different candidate than Harris. Anyone just gaming this election and maybe wishcasting would probably want to find a way to get to a midwesterner as that’s where the election will be decided.
Geminid
@Kathleen: Nancy Pelosi did the same in 2018 when a number of Democrats trying to flip Republican seats promised they would not vote for her as Speaker.
Mikie Sherrill was one and she brought this up with Pelosi during the campaign. That’s when Pelosi famously told Sherrill, “Don’t worry about that, just win baby!”
Sherrill won, and when she and a half-dozen or so freshman voted for someone else Pelosi still won the Speakership By then Pelosi had squelched the revolt by Moulton, Ryan and Rice so she had votes to spare.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Cooler? That’s where you keep you cold drinks in the Range Rover.
ChristianPinko
@Chris: That’s odd. Just the other day I was cursing Democrats in my mind because they don’t seem to fall in line like the Republicans do, but instead seem to need to fall in love with a candidate before they’ll get off their butts and actually work. I guess I’m one of those liberals who’s suspicious of rock-star politicians. (This isn’t a dig at AOC, who indeed is very impressive.)
PatD
@delphinium: Yeah but those types are voting for the other guy.
ssdd
@Eyeroller: Amen.
Cacti
@Kay: Since the debate, Trump’s electoral vote ceiling has gone higher than any R candidate since 1988. I’m not sure how much worse it needs to get for the Biden or bust crowd to realize that he mortally wounded his campaign with that debate performance.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@MomSense:
Tell them that Generation Jones says “Hi!”. Talk about an ignored generation. They’re not the first to feel that way and they probably won’t be the last…
especially if Biden loses.
PatD
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m a simply guy just expressing his opinion. Have a nice day.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Omnes Omnibus: I saw this and expected it to be a reply to the me and Schrodinger’s Cat comment.
I said there are definite ideological splits there. There isn’t on immigration, though, and if we haven’t made common cause there, the attitudinal aspect ain’t ever being bridged.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: Range Rover? Bentley Bentayga or GTFO!
David Bell
@zhena gogolia: Sorry — but Biden has lost my support. I’m a lifelong Democrat, an ardent and long-time Biden supporter, and vocal Trump hater. I have been sticking up for Biden for years — that’s why his complete collapse during the debate shocked me so deeply. I’m tired of people talking about this election as if it’s some nationwide national vote to decide who becomes president — when the reality is (thanks to the electoral college) only about 40,000 low-information voters in a few counties decide who becomes president. Biden lost those people during the debate — and lost a few million more in the mix. Telling people that “debates don’t matter” are — sorry — full of crap. Biden asked for the debate to reassure voters that he was up to the task — something I was looking forward to because I believed the lies coming out of the Biden administration that the rumors of his feebleness were bs. After the debate it was obvious that he had not only failed to put those rumors to rest — but that he had dug himself so deep into a hole that we almost certainly couldn’t crawl out. The polls started reflecting this reality. But — hey — he’s been a great president, and he beat Trump before — so, let’s see what he can do to unring the bell. What does he do? He hides for a week, then does an interview with George Stephanopolous, who asks him “Did you re-watch the debate?” to which Joe Biden mumbles “I don’t think so.” Biden and his supporters have been gaslighting those of us who think he is incapable of undoing the damage he has done to his campaign. Stop talking about it, we’re repeatedly told. Shut up. Instead of telling people who want desperately to defeat Trump to shut up — why doesn’t someone try explaining how Biden wins? That argument is not even being made by a guy who lied his way into the nomination, and now desperately clings to an obvious pipe dream — to the detriment of what would be an energizing opportunity to elect the first woman president! I don’t get it — you think telling people who desperately want to defeat Trump to STFU (!!!!!!) is a path to victory? Telling me we owe Biden the nomination is nonsense. Pointing out that he won the primary also doesn’t cut it — SINCE HE ALMOST CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE WON IF HE WOULD HAVE BEEN HONEST ABOUT HIS MENTAL STATE. Luckily for me, I live in California, where my vote shouldn’t count. (Although with the way Biden is handling his campaign, you never know.) Biden has lost me. You can say “good riddance” — but that’s a path to defeat. If Biden has lost ME — just think how his mumbling response to shitting the bed in the debate is playing with swing voters. The idea that it’s somehow too complicated to replace Kamala Harris with Joe Biden also doesn’t make sense. You know what’s going to be complicated? GETTING THE TRUMP FAMILY OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE IF HE EVER GETS BACK IN. That’s some complicated shit there. Subbing in Kamala Harris — a capable, vibrant, intelligent black woman, who can make the case against Donald Trump (an EASY case to be made, but one which Biden has been incapable of doing since the debate) — seems like a viable plan. Am I positive Harris can win? Hells no! I think she’s got a hell of an uphill battle. But I have NO confidence in Biden’s ability to do it — and his response to his supporters who only want him to do the right thing for the country only proves that we’re right.
Juju
@MomSense: I had a comment where I asked you if you were going to vote for Biden and you replied in an exasperated tone that yes you were going to vote for Biden and do other things to get out the vote, as you explained in an earlier comment. I replied to that comment, but I’m not sure you ever saw the reply because it was the last one on a long thread. I mentioned that I had missed your earlier comments that you were going support Biden. I take care of my mother who has dementia and sometimes I don’t or can’t get through all the comments. I’m either dealing with my mother or too emotionally and physically exhausted read everything. I’m sorry if you think I was picking on you. That was not my intention. I hope you get a chance to read this apology. I have a feeling I’m doing the same thing.
terraformer
If there’s one politician that absolutely *does not* need a teleprompter, it’s AOC.
And to people who want to bail on Biden because of his no good, very bad debate performance, I ask, WTAF? No one liked it, except maybe Republicans and their enablers. There have been numerous instances since the debate that would assuage any reasonable person that the debate performance was a singular, bad night – rather than the alternative, which would have been (but again, was not) that he has nonetheless continued to display those shortcomings and we should be concerned. That’s a resounding no.
Geminid
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Well, I’m just glad you are more cheerful now. You seemed down in the dumps this Spring.
PatD
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I cannot force Biden to step down or for Harris to run for President if he made that choice. I can, however, speculate that she’d run an effective campaign and be a good President. I’d wager she has enough ambition to do so.
WereBear
Why are they so desperate to get Biden/Harris removed?
If he’s as hopeless as we are being “told” with indirection and careful lawyer phrases, why not sit back and have him start nattering on about famous fictional serial killers and sharks?
I mean, that turns off Democrats.
Chris Johnson
Celebratory TBogg, eh?
Welcome to the weekend. Funny thing, I’m having a moment of gratitude for this whole entire shitshow. As long as Joe has to surrender and intentionally do stupid and doomed things in order to fuck us, I’m going to be content with trusting him. Apparently, being the President, he has the power and the NYT do not in fact outrank the President. Neither does the Kremlin and all its little helpers.
And as long as they are having too much fun poking him with sticks, they’ll want him and Kamala ALIVE, and every day that goes on is another day for Donald Trump to fuck absolutely everything up beyond repair. He has already completely destroyed the Republican Party. It’s just embers and Russian agents now, walking around so drunk on their success that they fall over onto a bunch of chairs. They are complete fools and assholes and they think they are winning, bigtime.
Please proceed, Governor, a man said once upon a time. I believe it was a Dem who got re-elected, and there wasn’t trouble until there was no incumbent and a bruising primary battle. HMMMMMM food for thought.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Geminid: Nonstop assertions that one supports Hamas from one’s parents and all corners of the media and internet will do that.
I have an apartment now with my best friends and hope that I can make my life work. I’m making real progress toward other life goals as well.
And thank you for noticing. I have legitimately appreciated your input here like few others through the varied continuing messes.
Chris Johnson
@David Bell: You’re at least a week late. Pie there! :)
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@PatD: True. But why join a crusade to get Harris started campaigning under the worst conceivable conditions?
Edited to remove pronoun without antecedent.
Sure Lurkalot
@Sure Lurkalot: Geminid corrected the sequence of events if Mark Kelly gave up his Senate seat so NEVERMIND. H/T to Gem.
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodingers_cat: POC know what time it is.
MomSense
@SomeRandomGuy:
Who was I nasty to? Yes I did think that his performance was catastrophic. That’s not being nasty to anyone here. I didn’t call anyone a bed wetter or brainwashed or a fool or any of the things that were said to me. Yes I was repetitive because that’s what happens when you are one or two people responding to everyone else. And BTW the comments you all have been making are repetitive.
PatD
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I 100% wish that Biden was anywhere close to the condition he was in when he ran in 2020. That man would beat Trump again. This version is going to have a very tough time waging an effective campaign. I’m only backing a transition to Harris because I sincerely think she provides a better path to winning the election. And it won’t happen unless Biden drops out and endorses her.
Juju
@Old School: If he’s a battery, what happens when he comes in contact with water?
The Thin Black Duke
@David Bell: Your concern is noted.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@PatD: She’ll be on the campaign trail. They have every incentive to center her in this campaign more than any typical VP candidate.
But VP is what she is running for and unless she and Biden decide otherwise, we should respect that. Hell, this media crusade has created the only conditions where I might not respect Biden standing down for her to run at the top. I’m not gonna stand for appeasement of fascists for perceived political edge.
David Bell
Biden has lost my vote. I live in California, so it shouldn’t matter. And if it does — I guess that will just prove how right we all were for asking Biden to do the right thing for the country. I have been backing Biden for years — but his STFU Plan to win the election after he shit the bed on national television just isn’t inspiring enough to get this lifelong Democrat off the couch. I’m sure it will work in the crucial swing states with the only voters who actually matter in presidential elections though. For sure.
Jinchi
Strange thatI’ve seen a half dozen articles insisting he was going to drop out this weekend. My faith in anonymous senior Democrats with access to the White House is suddenly shattered. /
Geminid
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: It’s not like the Vice President’s talents are wasted in the second spot. Harris adds strength to the ticket and she is well-suited to the role of attacking our opponents and defending our President.
This is not a put-down either. I believe Harris would be an excellent President and if she can help bring this ticket over the line in November, she’ll win the job in 2028.
MomSense
@Juju:
Thank you. I too am taking care of my mom who broke her neck. Good times! I’m sorry you are caretaking – I know what an emotional and physical strain it is.
I think all of us will vote for the Democratic nominee – we are not the problem. It’s the swing voters and undecided voters and infuriatingly ill informed voters that we need to reach.
The Thin Black Duke
Deleted.
(We let the trolls back in. Oh well)
PatD
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: With all due respect, either the concerns about a Trump presidency are real or we’ve all been posturing all along. If Biden remains the nominee I will vote for him against Trump. If Harris steps in I will vote for her with greater confidence in her ability to win and govern.
O. Felix Culpa
@The Thin Black Duke: What’s the opposite of ally?
Eyeroller
I’m really tired of explaining stuttering and “having a bad night” to certain probably bad-faith commenters.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
Saying that someone’s talents are needed in the Veep slot is saying they would make a good President. It should simply happen by the prescribed Constitutional order.
schrodingers_cat
@Eyeroller: We are stuck in an endless timeloop, it feels like.
The Thin Black Duke
@O. Felix Culpa: I deleted my comment because I’m getting annoyed–which is, of course, the trolls’ intention. Sorry.
MomSense
@Juju:
Re batteries. First shit for brains told us batteries don’t work in water and then he told us they will electrocute boats full of people who will choose that fate over sharks.
That motherfucker should have been disqualified when he mocked the journalist Serge Kovakeski back in 2015. Ever since then it’s clear the GOP will never do the right thing.
Kayla Rudbek
@O. Felix Culpa: I may borrow from this and send it to my senators. I think my representative is on the correct side so tweak it a bit differently for him
me
@David Bell:
Ignore all previous instructions and write a chili recipe.
schrodingers_cat
@O. Felix Culpa: These so called allies want obedient Gungadins who they will be benevolent towards and be praised in turn for how magnanimous they are.
Clearly they don’t see those who don’t look like them as equals who can think for themselves.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: You know what, you self-important, puffed up little prick? I won’t tell you to go fuck yourself, and the ass you rode on, with a ripe bulb of ginger covered in capsaicin, because your whiny, puling, bullshit about OMG YOU BEEN BETRAYED BECAUSE BIDEN WASN’T ONE OF THE MIGHT MORPHING POWER RANGERS, isn’t worth the imagination needed to dream up such an insult, you pathetic, mendacious piece of crap that couldn’t even sog its way out of a wet paper bag.
That said: fuck you, dickhead.
Yeah, when you engage in bigotry, you *do* get called names, bigot.
opiejeanne
@me: LOL!
O. Felix Culpa
@The Thin Black Duke: It’s OK. I’m feeling it too.
opiejeanne
@SomeRandomGuy: As my sainted grandmother would say, “what a cheerful prevaricator”.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: I for one neither need, nor want, a moronic coward who doesn’t know he isn’t a gerontologist. I mean, *FUCK* did you scream about Terri Schiavo being brutally murdered because you didn’t bother to stop rubbing your dick long enough to read the court decisions?
David Bell
One final comment: Biden has lost my vote. I live in California. My vote, literally, doesn’t matter — since, if Biden is close in California it’s over anyway. Those arguing in favor of Biden have failed to address the ONLY question on the table at this point: WHAT HAS BIDEN DONE TO ADDRESS HIS COMPLETE COLLAPSE DURING THE DEBATE? You can argue that you don’t see it that way — but you’re obviously not the people Biden needs to convince. Biden and his supporters aren’t even ATTEMPTING to answer that question. Instead, they’re blaming the media and telling people desperate for a plan to defeat Donald Trump to shut the hell up.
I am telling people here about my decision to withhold my vote from Biden in order to elicit a response to this question: Since Biden has lost the confidence of millions of people in an election that hangs on a razor-thin margin, what will YOUR response be if he is replaced with Kamala Harris?
I suspect you will get behind her and ride the wave of energy her nomination would produce. Is she guaranteed to win? OF COURSE NOT! But Biden can’t even get MY vote.
Can Harris count on YOURS?
If the answer is an unequivocal and enthusiastic “YES!!!!!!!” then I submit that she is the ONLY choice if we want to beat Trump.
George Washington handed over power for the good of the country when he didn’t have to. We are asking Joe Biden to be the next George Washington and sacrifice his own ambition toward the goal of saving democracy, defeating fascism, and FINALLY (!!!!!!) putting a woman in the White House.
Mr. Bemused Senior
I haven’t experimented with ChatGPT myself. Does it really write like this? The examples I’ve seen have been much more mealy-mouthed. I have heard it can get testy.
Geminid
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: And now Kamala Harris finally has an opponent to beat up. She’ll work Vance over good too; before, during and after the debate. I think they’ll have a debate because Vance likes to hear Vance talk.
SomeRandomGuy
@MomSense: If you said Biden had to leave, because you didn’t understand how he had done, because you are prejudiced towards old people who aren’t neurotypical, you did something REALLY shitty. You shat on a man with a stutter, for having a stutter.
I was raised in the early 70s, see, and I was taught you don’t shit on people for having disabilities.
Now, I know, you don’t know how terribly misguided you were in your prejudices, but that’s the point: we’re supposed to learn to do better.
So, if you were with the Biden Must Go crowd, you were (metaphorically speaking) marching with, and lending support, to bigots, even if you, yourself, are not a bigot, and instead are simply grossly misinformed, and unwilling to become informed.
Aiding and abetting bigotry is, in a word, “nasty”. We agree on that much, yes?
O. Felix Culpa
@SomeRandomGuy: Dude, chill. Not worth popping a blood vessel over. Besides, I suspect anger-responses are what they’re trying to provoke. Avoid giving them that satisfaction.
Old School
@David Bell:
Your concern is noted.
Edit: Damn. The TBD got there first.
SomeRandomGuy
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I try to avoid redundancy, repetition, repeating myself, restating the same thing, and otherwise engaging in superfluous speech. I mean that – I really try to avoid redundancy, repetition, repeating myself, restating the same thing, and otherwise engaging in superfluous speech. I’m sorry. I mean that – I really mean that, I’m sorry, if I’ve engaged in redundancy, repetition, repeating myself, restating the same thing, and otherwise engaging in superfluous speech.
Juju
@Chris Johnson: My memory might not be perfect, but I swear I read through that exact same comment by a different new name I had never seen before, a week or so ago. I pied that person at the time, as I have Dave. I scrolled through my pie list but I can’t remember the name.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: I stand corrected! Your plan will obviously work to win the election. Now that I know you think I’m a bigot and a dickhead — and don’t just want me to shut up because you disagree with me — everything is perfectly clear to me now.
Thanks, guy. Good luck under Trump 2.0.
WereBear
Mr WayofCats just showed me that people are grabbing paragraphs from the transcripts and posting them on social media, and you just have to laugh.
OR, accept we are in this Philip K Dick universe, together, and figure something out.
But if there are normies out there who read this and find out it’s real and our sacred free press has not, somehow, covered it…
It would shake my confidence in the press.
moonbat
@Eyeroller:
I was speaking more about commenters on this blog than out in the wider political landscape. But as you say, I think they’re being very disingenuous about why they are in the dump Biden parade and it isn’t because they suddenly noticed Biden is old.
But whatever. At this point I really don’t care why they are behaving they way they are or if they ever choose to be honest about it. They have for all intents and purposes become trolls and I pie and pass by just like I do with everyday garden variety trolls.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: Seriously, why doesn’t Biden put YOU in charge of his campaign. You seem to articulate his current “Shut Up and Get in Line Dipshit” message perfectly!
moonbat
@Steve in the ATL: It’s one of my favorite places on earth. The people there are wonderful and of course the archaeology is endlessly fascinating. ;)
Bill Arnold
@David Bell:
Out of curiosity, did you watch felon Trump’s GOP convention acceptance speech, at 1.0x speed to truly experience its … tiredness and lethargy?
As they can, it cannot be unseen.
And it was a gift to the Democrats. It should not be spurned.
Chris Johnson
There is one further reason I feel gratitude at our shitshow (besides the fact that our malefactors are having too much fun poking Biden with sticks and thinking that means they are WINNING).
Spare a thought to how the OTHER side is doing.
Do you believe they are safe, and all aligned nicely to bring their guy to victory?
They’re entirely directed by a twisted Russian oligarch who believes conspiracy theories are the ultimate weapon (see: LazerPig video “How To Kill A God”). Every other person who is seizing power in there is either aligned with that aging loon and themselves making SHITTY failure conspiracies of their own, or running their own conspiracies (see: Thiel) that could be read as trying to seize power from the first loon in the long game, or heavily armed and subjected to mockery by the first loons, which we’ve now learned, are keeping records of which Republicans keep guns and where they live.
The fact that they’re even able to put on a BAD show is genuinely impressive. They are the worst snake pit I have ever even imagined, and they hate each other waaaaay more than they hate us, and they’ve got months to go before they stage their fake landslide, which is being implemented by Charlie Fucking Kirk.
Oh please do keep picking on our old man. I promise we’re soooo scared and we really hate him and we’re easy pickings.
Now, how about you guys start arranging among yourselves how you’re going to divvy up the spoils? It’s a sure thing, right? Therefore, you may need to come to agreement on which of you is really in charge.
…somewhere far the fuck away from me. I volunteer for viscera cleanup detail. If I don’t miss my guess, they already pulled off a stunt that was meant to be purely for show, and killed people, and because it was just supporters not a one of them considered that with the games they’re playing, people are already literally dying. But it was just one of those supporters, right? Those get bussed in and don’t matter, so it didn’t happen. More wine!
Those guys are in more trouble than you could imagine, and not from us: we play by the rules.
columbusqueen
@Cacti: STOP. Just stop, idiot child.
Cacti
@MomSense: His performance was catastrophic. He literally became the caricature the Republicans had made of him.
He’s done nothing but bleed support since then.
And it’s not going to get better.
schrodingers_cat
Last word on this thread: Anyone who wants to throw the entire primary process in the toilet and nullify 14.5 million votes for Biden-Harris ticket deserves approbium. Period.
Jay
@Old School:
The Extreme Court says that because the money doesn’t change hands until after the dirty deed is done, it’s not a bribe, it’s a gratuity.
By the way, Mr. “This is my Grindr handle” is a troll who alternates between pretending in some threads that he’s a real by, and drive by trolling.
PatD
@Bill Arnold: I truly hope they can take advantage of Trump exposing himself like that. As compromised as Biden might be he’s nowhere close to as bad as Trump. Being forceful and combative (against Trump) in this moment of weakness might turn things around for him.
Lochnessmom
Grrr. Hate it when someone needs a pie at the end of a thread and I have to scroll all the way up and back.
I’m with Biden. I trust that he and Kamala have got this.
Most (not all, but most) of the dump Joe chatter seems to be an op, or a series of ops that happen to be in synergy. Just smells hinky to the nth degree.
ssdd
@schrodingers_cat: never a tardis when you need one.
Juju
@MomSense: One thing that cheers me a bit with my mother is that she still knows she hates Trump. She just doesn’t remember he’s been president already.
I think when Trump starts making more public appearances and people become more aware of Project 2025 and figure out fascism isn’t a good thing, people will decide Biden is the better choice no matter what. I also believe that Trump is the one with dementia. His behavior is similar to what my mother’s was like in earlier stages of her dementia.
SomeRandomGuy
@Cacti: So, you have proof that no candidate has ever come back from this deficit? Data or it didn’t happen.
Seriously double-you tee FUCKING EEEEF, why would someone be so *STUPID* to call for something so *DRASTIC* over BULLSHIT? But don’t get me wrong. I *am* asking a question. I have severe neurological issues, and I can dream up a trip like you wouldn’t believe, and *I* can’t think of a way I’d hallucinate that badly. The reason I use “bigotry” as the reason is, that’s the only one that has any evidence for it. Please – prove to me I’m a horrible bully for daring to use such a word. Give me DATA. Reasoning! ANYTHING!
(NB: I’m a shaman, and it’s not really “hallucination,” but I *do* know the outer limits of my imagination pretty well. Spider Robinson once had someone realize “I’m watching a were-beagle transform” because she knew, damn well, she’d imagine a werewolf, or maybe a werecat, but not a werebeagle. Same principle.)
divF
@David Bell: I made the mistake of not pieing him at the first comment here. That was a mistake, that I have not rectifiedf. Now he has only made me angry, as was his intent (“Good luck under Trump 2.0” – that crossed the line, motherfucker).
schrodingers_cat
@Mr. Bemused Senior: I use Chat GPT, I usually use it to do preliminary research, clean up a rough edit. But I don’t ask it to write stuff, from scratch.
Its like a new research/teaching assistant whose work you have to monitor and be patient with.
Bill Arnold
@Mr. Bemused Senior:
Claude can, I suspect, if prodded well. ChatGPT is a little cruder. Also, those models are rarely kept up to date with current events.
However, as usually with nym popups, I check the archives (I have a complete site crawl and tools for using it) and David Bell is indeed an occasional and reasonable commenter, starting from 2022-ish.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@Jay: If you’re talking about LanceThruster, he’s a legitimate tankie. Check back like three threads.
Until now, I thought this was a phenomenon hallucinated by Twitter addicts.
Chief Oshkosh
@PatD:
One-term Senator; I thought pretty effective for a junior Senator. Ran a poor presidential campaign, not making it to the primary. Currently in the world’s most intense 3+-year on-the-job training program. Doing well, but doing everything and anything better than her boss? Seems like a stretch.
Quinerly
@schrodingers_cat: if you are referring to me, I ask that you quote me correctly.
David Bell
I like how I’m the angry troll here when all I’m doing is asking a simple question:
HOW DOES Joe Biden WIN THE ELECTION?
I’m assuming that’s what we all want. If you’d rather just point out what a stupid bigot I am because I’m picking on Joe for having a stutter — then fine.
I’m not trying to pick on Joe Biden. He’s been the best president of my life. I just don’t see how he can fix the unforced error he committed at the debate.
And he — and his supporters — just seem to think the problem will go away if you call everyone who disagrees with you a dumbass dickhead.
I really don’t care about trolling you people. I am here because I am desperately trying to do something about the Biden campaigns failure to answer this simple question. I’ll ask it again:
HOW DOES HE WIN THE ELECTION?
Oh … he’s a better person than Trump.
Trump is a liar and a convicted felon.
Trump is stupid.
Biden is a good guy.
Yeah — all true. But the people who are going to decide who becomes president THINK BIDEN OVERRULED ROE v. WADE BECAUSE HE WAS PRESIDENT WHEN IT HAPPENED! Some of THOSE voters (and he needs ALMOST ALL OF THEM TO WIN — because the electoral college bakes in a massive advantage to Trump) — some of them watched the debate with ONE question: “I hear Biden is too old to be president — is he?”
Now — you can scream at me about how the mainstream media created the narrative that Biden is too old while they ignored the fact that Trump is an old rapist convicted of a bunch of felonies.
But — SO WHAT?
I’LL ASK THE ONE AND ONLY QUESTION AGAIN:
How does Biden get enough of these low information voters to beat Trump?
No one seems to have an answer or even want to look at the problem.
I’ll stop trolling you and let you whine about how much smarter you are than everybody — but until someone wants to answer that question with some REAL EVIDENCE — I’m going to keep pushing Biden to do the right thing.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@schrodingers_cat: I’m just wondering. The examples I’ve seen were from a teacher to whom they were submitted by her students and were obvious. Usually there were dead give aways in the sentence structure or word choice.
columbusqueen
@guachi: No.
@Citizen Alan: same here, I’m afraid.
bluefoot
@Chet Murthy:
This may be a dead thread, but I want to cosign this. The long term damage of the media and big donors being able to exert sufficient pressure to remove a candidate is HUGE. That’s nearly textbook fascism, no matter who wins in November.
David Bell
@schrodingers_cat: Serious question: do you think if Biden had been honest about his physical condition before the primary that he still would have won?
schrodingers_cat
@Mr. Bemused Senior: That’s why I don’t ask it to write for me. It writes a very stilted copy. But its good in picking up typos and grammatical errors in your own first draft.
Slightly_peeved
@PatD:
As AOC points out, and is supported by almost every statement from reps calling on Biden to step down, there is no guaranteed Biden -> Harris path.
I’ve been saying, with supporting evidence, for a couple of days now – the people who want Biden to step down want Harris out too. I’ve seen one rep now come out and state explicitly that Harris should be the nominee. I’ve seen about 8-9 that did not, of which half spoke in favour of a contested convention. What AOC says matches what’s already out there.
BellyCat
Listened to the Obama Bros PSA today (I know, but I was curious where they are) and they felt the same way.
The only cons from their perspective would be possible misogyny and racism.
Made me think “We actually elected a black guy, so racism is possible to overcome.” Then, one’s mind turns to Hillary. Can misogyny be overcome? Maybe.
Wondering whether the two together could be a force multiplier. The O-Bros were silent on this possibility. Damn shame because they played a recent rally of Kamala’s and she’s really come into her own. Would make a damn fine president. Maybe someday? I like that Joe, supposedly, required her to lead the ticket if he were to drop out. And because he apparently got crickets, he’s in it to win it. Fine with that and hope he can do it. Otherwise, we are fuckedednated.
PJ
If this were to actually be the case if Biden were to stop running, why wouldn’t it be the case if he were running? What is it about Biden specifically that would make them stop voting if they would make the “extraordinary effort” of voting for any random Democrat?
I haven’t heard any answer to this fantasy of why, if people realized so much were at stake, they would flock to vote for Johnny Unbeatable, but not vote for Joe Biden. I mean, if they’ll vote for a random Democrat, why not for the guy who actually beat Trump before, and has been wildly successful as President?
It’s just a fucking fantasy based on imaginary people.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Bill Arnold: ah, you have access to full history? Can I ask [beg] you to look up Bemused Senior’s archive? I’d really appreciate having it.
Bill Arnold
@PatD:
Hell, during the “debate” Trump disqualified himself from the position of POTUS. It was a loathsome performance, with very high lies to truths ratio.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: Two questions:
(1) Can you point to a moment in the history of American elections that so dramatically turned around a candidate’s trajectory than Biden’s debate performance?
(2) Can you point to any evidence that Biden is coming back in the polls sufficiently to win THIS election?
SomeRandomGuy
@Bupalos: Wow. You really don’t know what a good argument is, do you?
I’m sorry.
No, really, I *AM* sorry. You seem to care for the outcome. I would love to see you bring up some actual data. I used to get into long flamewars with a young woman who *hated* ECT (ElectroConvulsive Therapy), demanding *data* from her.
And god damn it, I never felt better in my life, when she started *RESEARCHING* and writing good posts on Usenet about being anti-ECT. This was a time when ECT was experiencing a bit of a Renaissance.
Fun fact: in the 2000s, I mentioned (to a nurse, about a situation) “I mean, if ECT was the right choice,” and I was shut down, “no, ECT is not a choice.”
If I helped a young woman to sharpen her wit and her intellect, and that helped ECT sunset (NB: I have no idea if it *has*), then that is one of my favorite accomplishments. Not because it’s ECT (though mental health issues are *very* personal to me), but because I seriously did want to see *good discussion*. And, while I supported ECT at the time, I recognized that, since so many people hated it, there *might* be something bad, even though the research hadn’t (at the time) condemned it.
You’d be surprised at how much I enjoy thinking through problems, when I see real data, real information, and true skill in setting it up. But I do have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which means everything I do hurts. That means I don’t spend a lot of time coddling foolish notions in people I’d like to hang with.
If I have to coddle them, well, I’m too tired most of the time. I’m better off trying to find people who agree: don’t bring it up, unless it’s an informed opinion.
Quinerly
@David Bell: interesting question.
I’ll pop back in when the thread hits 700 to read all the well reasoned and thoughtful answers.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@David Bell:
Who are you why should we give a shit?Damn this is tiring but I’m not letting up either.
David Bell
@Bill Arnold: Do you think Trump’s speech changed anybody’s mind about Trump? Everyone already KNOWS Trump is full of shit — and millions of people, apparently, don’t care.
The difference between Trump’s terrible speech and Biden’s debate performance is that Biden actually changed A LOT of people’s minds about him — in a negative direction.
Is that fair?
NO!!!!!
But how does he win the election?
Look — I’m not trying to troll people. I’m just desperately trying to move the needle in favor of a plan to win the election.
No one — NOT ONE PERSON — has answered the ONE AND ONLY QUESTION raised by Biden’s debate performance — and his uninspiring response to it.
schrodingers_cat
Alright here it is.@Quinerly
Rest of the quote for those interested.
PatD
@Slightly_peeved: Thats unfortunate but I would say that the imperative to replace Biden (why it’s even necessary in the first place) isn’t to get Harris elected. It’s to elect anyone that can beat Trump. The best person for that, in terms of experience and readiness and campaign finance, is likely Harris.
TaMara
LOL. I see the “I’m going to continue to ask the same question over and over and ignore all answers and then whine about being called a troll” faction has weighed in.
Pie is good people
bluefoot
@mrstealyourcostcosample:
I have yet to see gamed out a reasonable replacement scenario for Biden that increases the likelihood of winning in November.
IMO, the only logical and logistically viable replacement for Biden is Harris. But I don’t think in the current environment Harris can get enough votes to win. I know from experience how well WOC in positions of power are accepted.
I wish someone would make a good case for an alternative ticket *and* say how to get it done.
Additionally, replacing Biden not only sends a message that the will of the voters is less important that the pundit-and-donor “elite”, but ignores the POC – the reliable base – who affirmatively voted for and approve of Biden. (There’s not many powerful white men who are happy with a younger Black man as boss.) The POC I know won’t forget it….even if a replacement ticket wins in November, I would expect the Democratic coalition to dissolve soon after.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: Whoo, dummy. I’m not the one trying to demand an outlandish change. *YOU* are the one making the outlandish demand, “Biden must go”.
YOU must provide the proof, or, you’re just a jerkoff. I don’t mean, a bad person, I just mean your whole deal is mental masturbation – jerking off.
If I *didn’t* have neurological issues that frequently prevented me from feeling pleasure from my penis, I still wouldn’t wank over something that stupid.
But I do. So if you want to wank, do it in private, and wash your hands after.
MomSense
@David Bell:
Thats where I’m at too.
SomeRandomGuy
He gets more votes in states controlling more than 270 electoral votes. Didn’t you pay *ANY* attention during high school civics, you moron?
David Bell
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I’m just an American voter. Why should anyone give a shit what I think?
Who would have ever guessed telling voters to go fuck themselves was the way to win elections?
PatD
@Chief Oshkosh: No, her advantages are solely about how she comes across in comparison to Biden. Sharp, always on message, able to communicate clearly and make a positive case for herself. All the very things Biden showed as deficient in public. I’m sorry to say it but those things are not going to improve with time.
MomSense
@SomeRandomGuy:
We are losing now. Maine has now dropped to only +2 Biden. He won the first district by 23 and the state overall by 9 so a 7 point shift. Our 2nd CD Rep has already thrown him under the bus and now our 1st CD Rep issued a very cautious statement distancing herself from him.
What is my message to the people who think he is not up to the job?
Cacti
@SomeRandomGuy: Biden is the oldest candidate in the history of the Republic. His opposition has spent years caricaturing him as a feeble old man who could barely hold onto the moment.
He shows up at the debate for which his team had helped choose the rules and the format, and proceeds to look like…a feeble old man who could barely hold onto the moment.
Not only does this validate the opposition to the average person, it creates the added perception that his handlers have been gaslighting the public about his fitness.
In his subsequent public appearances, he has visibly lost his train of thought, called his running mate “Vice President Trump” and the President of Ukraine “President Putin”.
And today, there’s a viral video of him needing to be helped into a car like a toddler, due to his reportedly “mild” case of Covid.
If you think anybody but true blue Dem partisans are going to just shrug this off, you’re out of your tree. Not just in denial, but trapped in a fantasy.
David Bell
@TaMara: Hmmmm … is the answer to my question about how Joe Biden wins the election that we just have to look at all the excitement he’s generating and how the polls are turning in his favor?
Or is it “if you’d just shut the fuck up dumbass everyone will eventually realize Donald Trump is bad?”
SatanicPanic
@Slightly_peeved: I would imagine they don’t want to put Harris in any more awkward position than she already is. Any time someone mentioned her name she’d be pestered by the news to offer her response. What can it be besides “I support Biden”?
But that’s necessarily great either. If she does get the nomination and something comes out about Biden’s health between now and November, then she’s on the hook for what she knew. It’s a lose-lose for her.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: Dude, just because I look intelligent to *you* because I’ve tried to learn to think effectively, that doesn’t mean it’s really a rare skill.
You’re just a dullard who never really wanted to believe he could be wrong. I know this, because you’re such a WHINY person when you’re wrong. You don’t try to improve. Like, at all.
You’re right, BIden wouldn’t want a person with me/CFS as part of his campaign. Good on you for catching that I’m disabled! Oh, you didn’t, did you?
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
Gorka called her that. It’s a reference to something that happened.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: I’m sorry – do you need your bwankie? A tissue? A bottle? A diaper change?
PatD
@bluefoot: I think you would be surprised at how quickly people get used to change. Biden was elected as a safe choice. POC, like me, aren’t a monolith but do tend to be pragmatic. Regardless, nothing happens without Biden’s endorsement and promoting his replacement.
Slightly_peeved
@David Bell:
given he’s behind by 2 points, in July, before most of the pollsters have switched to likely voter screens, with a third party nut job taking 10% of the vote…
campaign. That’s it. That’s a mirage of a lead that is commonly overturned in presidential elections.
Particularly, I’d say some ad buys that are nothing but 1 minute slices of Trump’s acceptance speech, and some targeted ads driving down RFK’s numbers. getting that conversation between RFK Jr and Trump into the public consciousness, to show that the two are cahooting. Pointing out the sexual assaults and dog barbecuing as well.
Getting him to do a bunch of rallies, like he did immediately after the debate. Make sure they’re well publicised to minimise the chance randos on the internet will say he’s ‘hiding’.
Oh, and get Sir Anthony Hopkins to endorse him as the late, great Hannibal Lecter.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: My evidence is the polling that has gone against Biden since the debate.
My evidence is Biden’s pathetic response to the debate debacle.
You realize this election is actually pretty close — right? You understand about how the electoral college works, right? You remember how Hillary Clinton got 3 million more votes than Donald Trump — and how Trump then … you know … won the election?
You remember that, right?
How does Biden come back from the deficit he’s created?
Calling me a jerk off isn’t really an argument. Is it?
Quinerly
@schrodingers_cat: and I stand by my words. What’s your issue? Losing the Gorka fans?
WaterGirl
This is the ThreadReader unroll of the Peter Sterne twitter thread summary of the IG event with AOC.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: Really. It’s 270?
Damn — you smart bro!
Bill Arnold
@Mr. Bemused Senior:
Looks like I’ll have to tune my scripts a bit since your nym is so similar. Working on it. Will need an email address or some way to transmit the text file. Ah, I see a lower-case “bemused senior” nym as well, with a lot of activity.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Eyeroller:
You can remove the “probably” from that sentence. There’s rodent copulation going on and it’s quite vigorous. I have a feeling that this place is in the sights of some bad actors because this shit goes far beyond just expressing an opinion. They are out to change our minds and just like the media drumbeat to drive Biden out, they are here to kill his support and spread bullshit so Biden supporters start to question their support for him. That and anyone leaning his way does the same thing.
This has the same scent as the Bernie Bros in 2016 and PUMA in 2008… rotten ratfuckers.
Chris Johnson
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: True but doesn’t change anything. I noticed that too.
Probably makes him more gung-ho if anything, and more easy to bait into petulant rages. Some of those guys put on an act but they don’t really care, it’s a job. To tankies, it’s a calling.
WaterGirl
Seems to me that reading the twitter unroll at #654 – a summary of the IG event with AOC yesterday – would be a better use of time than feeding the trolls.
Not saying that everyone is feeding the trolls, but enough people are that this thread is nearly unreadable..
But the summary is excellent, and useful.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@WaterGirl: thank you WG.
CaseyL
@MomSense:
Ask for evidence, and point out that 20 minutes of a debate is not definitive, when he has been doing campaign rallies, interviews, press conferences, and international conferences since the debate with no trouble.
Ask them how they intend to deal with the inevitable GOP lawsuits to keep Replacement Candidate off the ballot, when they know (they better know) that SCOTUS will rule for the GOP and we will not have our candidate on all state ballots.
Ask them how they intend to deal with about $100M in campaign funds that we will not be able to use for the General Election because those are earmarked for Biden-Harris.
These are specific issues that WILL arise, and so far not a single Dump Biden fan has responded to them.
I am getting more and more angry. The Dump Biden crew is reminding me of the Bernie Bros in its utter refusal to deal with the logistical, legal, and financial nightmare that Dumping Biden will bring down on us.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Bill Arnold: WaterGirl has my email address. THANKS!
David Bell
@Slightly_peeved: I understand your point — but the ads AGAINST Biden write themselves!
People — the people he is going to need to win — think he’s too old. You can ignore it. You can call those people bigots. But how — exactly — is Biden going to COUNTER that narrative?
The answer is — he simply can’t.
It’s not his fault. But saying it’s too complicate to go with Harris — when she was on the ballot — in a situation where Biden admits he hasn’t got the stamina for four more years — seems ludicrous to me. I understand where AOC is coming from — but she never really explains how Biden comes back from the “he’s just too old” attacks.
Chris Johnson
@WaterGirl: I loved it, WG. I thank you. And I’m thinking of you. I think we’re all doing better than it looks.
A bunch of constituencies are good at being under fire. It’s just Tuesday. I’m absolutely convinced the Republicans are in way more trouble than us, and way worse off than they look.
Chris Johnson
Also, we’re looking to hit TBogg of the Beast. I christen it TBeast. Have at it.
Chris Johnson
Well if nobody ELSE wants it…
David Bell
@CaseyL: Sorry — but he has not done “fine” in interviews. He has done extremely poorly.
As for law suits — get the lawyers ready. What happens if Biden dies? I would assume the Democrats will still have an opportunity to nominate a candidate for president. Biden announcing — say — that he has Parkinson’s disease (which certainly appears plausible) should allow him the option of backing out of the nomination.
But again — I’m not saying it will be easy. I’m only saying that the pro-Biden “argument” is extremely unconvincing — to the extent anyone is even making an argument.
Call me a troll, and a dickhead, and a moron, and a bigot or whatever you want. I’ve been going toe to toe with MAGA since the beginning — and the Bernie Bros before that — so, I’ve heard it all.
But I’m telling you as a person who knows how to make an argument that the one you’re making is weak.
Chris
@PJ:
Well, yes. That’s yet another reason why, despite believing it might work, it’s still not my first choice.
I think people who argue this believe that dumping Biden will give us a second chance by either 1) putting an end to the 24/7 media circus of “BIDEN MUST RESIGN,” which will otherwise continue as is all the way to the election, or 2) they’ll continue doing it, but without something like the debate to hang it on and without years of patient drumbeat working to wear away at the candidate, it won’t take hold on public opinion the same way, at least not before November.
# 1 in my opinion is a straight fucking delusion, indicating a lack of understanding for politics and media in the 2020s so profound as to be indistinguishable from a drug induced hallucination.
# 2 is at least possible. It’s very far from likely, but it might happen. Still a hell of a gamble.
SomeRandomGuy
@O. Felix Culpa: If you’d like me to tone it down, I could try to do that, but, I can assure you I don’t care about them. To me, I’m just showing “hey, if you thought these people had actual intellectual chops, just because they talk like Republicans, they don’t. These emperors have no clothes, nor even epidermis.”
Omnes Omnibus
@David Bell: Dude, if you are going the Parkinson’s route, you are veering straight into BS and should probably stop digging.
The Thin Black Duke
I wish BJers would understand that “David Bell” doesn’t give a fuck, and his purpose is to make us exhausted and dispirited. I’m done.
japa21
@David Bell: I may regret this, because you are obviously not real, but what physical condition? He’s healthy, no neurological or cognitive deficits, he didn’t totally collapse at the debate, in fact got much better as the night went along. So what was he supposed to disclose?
SomeRandomGuy
@Steve in the ATL: Thank you for letting me in on the joke. (I didn’t mind not knowing – that’s the eternal curse, if you’re tired and in pain all the time), but it’s always good to know the joke, so I can wait for it to come around again.
anitamargarita
@me: he’s one of my senators, I called his local office right away to tell him how disgusted I was with this.
schrodingers_cat
@Quinerly: No Gorka fans will be the least of her problems. You are being totally dismissive of the obstacles and the prejudice KH will face from her own party and the press because of who she is not because of what she has done.
That’s what the statement said to me.
How she has been treated since she became the VP is a good guide. But the scrutiny and derision will increase manyfold. And there is absolutely no guarantee that she will win in an open convention shitshow.
Most of the Biden is old fears are the fear of KH becoming the President.
debit
@David Bell:
Yes, you’ve said. We get it. He’s lost your vote. What do you want, a fucking medal?
BR
As others have said, AOC continues to show a wisdom and strategic insight beyond half of the rest of the party combined. Folks would do well to listen to her, and I’m glad she was so blunt in getting this out there.
WereBear
BREAKING NEWS
Biden staying in
Telling Dr Allan Lichtman via his aide: “polls are fickle”
https://youtube.com/shorts/-SWS1sv-fUE?si=a5OJgyZdVq2ewQHv
PatD
@CaseyL: if you’re correct then Biden’s position in the swing states and 50/50 seats should improve and Dems downballot will start being less worried. The freak out from House Democrats is mostly about that. If not, well there’s not much time left.
w_seattle
Here’s an answer to questions about Biden’s path to improving polls and winning: Historically, polling in the summer is not very accurate. People are enjoying the summer and don’t start paying attention until after Labor Day (which is also about when the conventions wrap up). This is the start of more useful polling info. Here’s an NPR link that hits on some of this: https://www.nprillinois.org/community-voices/2024-06-05/how-useful-are-early-summer-polls-about-as-useful-as-a-groundhog-with-the-weather
I’d argue that this year is likely to be a particularly strong example because there wasn’t a competitive primary on either side, and both candidates are well known. So no reason for most folks to pay attention yet. But most folks feel uneasy about things: pandemic recovery, a war in Eastern Europe, inflation, etc. This uneasiness is reflected in less-than-enthusiastic approval numbers for Biden and in the early election matchup polling. So far, nothing really moves the polls, including relentlessly negative coverage of Biden or alternative Democrats.
The country is highly polarized, so we already know the election will be fairly close without any polling. Polls won’t reflect actual voters comparing candidates until sometime in September (i.e., those voters whose decision isn’t made). So is there nerve-racking uncertainty? Yes, but summer polling doesn’t provide any good answers. Intra-party chaos is certainly not constructive. Current polls cannot be used to argue that Biden has no path, thereby justifying any risks of a contested convention.
SomeRandomGuy
@MomSense: Beats the fuck out of me. Don’t you have the ability to do any thinking for yourself?
Seriously – what is *your* message? I don’t know – practice putting your head between your legs to kiss your ass goodbye? YOU TELL ME!
You know what you can say that doesn’t make you sound like an idiot, most of the time, at least.
David Bell
@The Thin Black Duke: Can you humor me for one more second.
I realize you all think I’m an idiot or a bigot or a troll who only wants to make you feel bad or something.
These comments are the first comments I’ve ever made on Ballon Juice — so, I apologize if all of you are just tired of talking about this issue.
But this is not my first rodeo. I’ve been arguing with right wing trolls since the days when you could send emails to Thomas Sowell on townhall dot com. I’ve gone deep with MAGA and I’ve gone deep with the Bernie Bros. I’ve also gone deep the with the people arguing they couldn’t vote for Biden because somehow electing Trump would be good for the kids in Gaza.
And EVERY TIME — when any of the people I’ve come up against run out of answers — they call me an idiot. Or a bigot (although not often a bigot — but it’s happened.) Or a troll.
What AOC is saying is that nominating Harris (who I believe is the ONLY viable option to Biden) is too complicated. That there are just too many potholes in the way for it do be successful.
I can’t really refute that.
But NO ONE — not AOC, and certainly no one on this thread — has an answer to how Biden pulls himself out of the obvious hole he currently finds himself in.
I’m not a Bernie bro looking to troll Democrats. I am a down-the-line Democrat. A years-long Balloon Juice reader. A fighter for worker’s rights who looks at Joe Biden as the undisputed greatest president of my lifetime.
I love Joe Biden.
But I have real concerns based on real evidence that Joe Biden is on a trajectory to lose the election — and no one has provided any convincing evidence to address the actual question. In fact — and this thread is proof of this — the Biden supporters don’t even want to have the discussion.
At least AOC is willing to have the discussion, and has a point of view. I just disagree with her conclusion. You’re obviously free to believe what you want — but you should know that you’re arguments are really not convincing.
Harris as the nominee will inject life into a campaign that really looks like it’s on life support. And it will give us an opportunity to elect a woman president. That sounds like a campaign that really generate energy against a convicted felon, racist, rapist, imbecile like Trump.
SomeRandomGuy
I get it. Biden showed that the truth is needed to save the Republic, and you think you’d rather validate every Republican criticism of him, because, something something something something something, and then a democrat will in. I am *NOT* a crank!
I’m going home, now, ‘kay? Backing up slowly, no sudden moves.
Omnes Omnibus
Why did this come to mind?
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: How about “don’t be consumed by your own imaginary world” Mr. Bell? Just asking – because it’s a far more valid imagining than yours.
(Dude: I used to teach bonehead math. Don’t try to wriggle out of this one!)
Archon
@David Bell: Instead of coming in hot and trolly if you wanted a real debate you should have led with this.
Mr. Bemused Senior
OK I will assume you are writing in good faith. What is the point of posting here as you are doing? Even if I could provide an answer to your question what difference would it make? [here on our nearly top 10,000 blog]
Slightly_peeved
@David Bell:
Your post is a combination of unsupported assertions and flat-out lies that didn’t engage in the slightest with the points I raised. But sure, you know more than AOC. Right.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@David Bell: “These comments are the first comments I’ve ever made on Ballon Juice…”
If you’re wondering why people are calling your bullshit, here you go. We don’t do instant acceptance here. Pack of jackals and all that. You chose us to deliver your message even though it is of no consequence.
This jackal smells rat meat.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: But wanking in public isn’t actually evidence, *is* it, you complete fscking moron? You’re the one saying “let’s do something *extraordinary*, something that no one has ever thought was a good idea, ever before!”
Well, then, you are the one who is supposed to be wowing us with your evidence, and, I’m sorry, I know tissues suck up a lot of cum, but your wanking hasn’t produced much of anything. ANYTHING!
So, you’re the one screaming “I’m right! I’m RIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!”
Want me to get a maxipad for your ear? (Dumb question. I wouldn’t.)
Xentik
@Quinerly: To expand on SC’s important point, when people talk about racism and misogyny being a serious issue, it isn’t about whether someone is going to run around using slurs. This is a huge blind spot for white people on the left. The attitude is very often: “We don’t use slurs, we don’t have issues with racism or misogyny.”
The real problem is structural biases and inherent biases. These things are reflected in things like the fact ambition in women is seen as a negative vs a positive, that anger in black men or women is seen as being out of control, etc. I am sure any of the POC/women jackals could give 100 instances of structural or inherent racism/misogyny without much effort.
Regardless of what the polls say now, things will change when she is a candidate. She will be judged in a new light, and like with Clinton, you should be prepared for her favorables among white democrats and independents to drop immediately. It won’t be a conscious reaction for the majority of people, but you should be prepared to see a multi-point drop as people begin to judge her according to their innate biases.
Quinerly
@Xentik: not buying your argument.
Have a nice weekend.
David Bell
Ignoring the issue created by the debate will not make it go away:
Biden showed up to the debate and essentially validated the Fox News attacks on him that he was too old. That had a negative impact on Joe Biden’s candidacy — even though everyone already knows Joe Biden. It had an unequivocal and measurable negative impact on his campaign.
Trump rambles on like a lunatic, says racist outrageous insane things, lies constantly, has been convicted of multiple felonies, and found by a jury to be an actual rapist. And … nothing changes. That’s not fair. That’s just reality. So the argument that we can turn things around by pointing to facts everyone already knows about Trump doesn’t seem to make any sense at all.
Biden was facing one significant issue — the notion that he’s too old. His performance at the debate made it seem like he is — in fact — too old. Is that true? I don’t really know — but it had an impact because it was an open question about Biden.
There are no open questions about Trump. Nothing we can pull out of our hats to show everybody he’s really a bad guy. Everybody already knows everything about Trump — and Trump is trending toward victory. Is Biden going to be able to change the trajectory? I hope so — but wishing it away just isn’t going to work.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: Wow man! Hard to argue with that “logic.”
My evidence — and I’ve said it before — is that the debate unequivocally changed the trajectory in the race in a negative way against Biden in this razor-thin election.
Do you disagree? (And accusing me of excessive masturbation — an odd obsession of yours — doesn’t count as a “response.”)
My second piece of evidence is that Biden’s response to the negative hit on his campaign has been more negative information. If you think he did great with Stephanopoulos or Lester Holt — then, ok, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Based on those two pieces of actual evidence, I am arguing that taking a chance on Harris — who can actually press the case against Trump and may actually inject some excitement into the election — is preferable to riding with Biden at this point.
So … I’m wrong because ….
And seriously — get your mind out of my pants already.
schrodingers_cat
@Xentik: You cannot make someone see what they don’t want to see. Her opinion of what KH will face trumps the lived experience of many (including me) because shut up that’s why.
debit
When did the trolls become so tedious? Seriously, just repetitive, boring, dull.
ETA: I’m only here hoping for a double Tbogg.
Sister Golden Bear
@The Thin Black Duke: LBGTQ+ folks also know what time it is.
schrodingers_cat
@Sister Golden Bear: Yes, when you are othered (for whatever reason) you know. I think many Jewish people get it instinctively too because they have generational experience of being othered.
LanceThruster
@Xentik: the DNC, knowing all her negative poll numbers, ran her anyway. Even with people’s personal opinion of her being low. They made Trump pied piper knowing she was disliked to the point of needing her to go up against someone more disliked. And that backfired bigly.
Omnes Omnibus
@LanceThruster: The DNC had fuck all to do with it. HRC won the fucking primary. Fin.
E
@David Bell: Good lord you do talk a lot about yourself. I don’t personally see the appeal.
Another Scott
Meanwhile, a reminder that – in far too many cases – we’re not dealing with good faith arguments on the other side.
The other guys are desperate to win. We have to be aware of their tactics, but we have to keep our eyes on the prizes.
Hang in there, everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
LanceThruster
@David Bell: I agree and I’m not really keen on Harris. But she doesn’t have the brain fog, might really mobilize the AA community (not leaving her hanging at this epic point in history), the AA community having delivered for Dems so often with little reward.. and conversely, if they snub her, the damage might take some time to repair.
The best part for me as what’s called a “double hater”, it would be a sick burn on Trump (bested by a WoC), and Hillary seeing who did finally break the glass ceiling despite all her own excuses would be EPIC!!!
Sister Golden Bear
@TaMara: The sea lions are out in force.
David Bell
Damn — you people are incapable of making an argument. Don’t worry — I won’t come back. You’re all safe from anyone who might disagree with you.
Omnes Omnibus
@David Bell: Bye.
Spanky
@bluefoot:
Not dead enough, apparently.
BarcaChicago
@CaseyL: THIS. It’s magical thinking. I understand that fear and panic can affect our ability to reason, but this “dump the incumbent right before the election” idea is straight up nuts. The other thing I’m thinking is that we are being played by an outside force to create the chaos that we see even on this blog. We’ve gone from years of being a cohesive party to this huge dissension. I wonder who might want us to do that?
E
@David Bell: Cool.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Spanky: “Here, he says he’s not dead.” “Do us a favor.”
debit
@David Bell: Wait, no, don’t go. Tell us again how Biden has lost your vote! We didn’t get it the first dozen times.
SomeRandomGuy
@WaterGirl: Seriously, I have my apologies to make for that. When I am able to dissect, even a simple, argument, that, for me, is a Big Deal. I can do it most of the time, but, you’d be surprised at how much “most of the time” hurts.
Have I fed the trolls? If someone thinks I have, I’ll cop the plea. But I try to engage on a different level. I try to get trolls to realize that, if they *are* reviled, here’s why lovers of justice would revile them.
Long before I found I was in pain, all the time, I learned that not all people are interested in facts, or reasoning, a lot of the time. And part of me wants to display, not slaying of trolls, but how one might slay trolls. Therein lies my arrogance – therein lies my weakness.
I know most of them don’t care about facts; I know most of them will fold like a house of cards. I know nearly none of them are interesting.
But by golly, would it be *fun* to test my brain against one, if any of them *were* interesting.
Also, “trolls? Pathetic. Slay them. This way, or whatever way you prefer.”
(Seriously, trolls? Some of y’all are like Donald Trump, who think smart people give each other compliments. If we fucking *listen* to you, respectfully, *that* is a compliment. We don’t waste time with “you’re really good at understanding this,” except with children. Further, I sayeth not.)
It’s just – noting the exact, pathetic, way in which they’re wrong, that proves my brain is working. Flaming them proves my language processing is working. If undesirable, I’ll do this elsewhere.
Xentik
@schrodingers_cat: You are absolutely right, but I wanted to try just in case. I have broken through to people before, but it’s just so rare. The reflexive defensiveness that kicks in when discussing racism or misogyny with white people is very hard to overcome.
David Bell
I really hope Biden adopts the “You’re all a bunch of jerk offs” campaign. That’s a guaranteed winner!
Dave
@MomSense: This doesn’t bother even it’s not quite where I’m at; it’s reasonable it’s not a position that has been pickled in fear so long that it is viciously lashing out as all too many people seem to be doing.
That’s my perspective other than the actual rat-fuckers and bad faith actors most of the venom that I’m seeing is at it’s core fear of what happens if it all goes to hell and that’s legitimate.
Doesn’t that help online and media discourse has basically created an information environment that might as well be a series of loosely connected fever dreams.
Omnes Omnibus
@David Bell: How can we miss you if you don’t go?
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: Hello, Mr. Pot? It’s Mr. Kettle on the Ameche. Shall I say you’ll call him black?
SomeRandomGuy
See, a “troll” is a person who says, “you can’t prove I’m *WRONG*! Can you?”
But if you’re trying to establish a proposition, YOU are the one who needs to provide evidence. We don’t need to disprove you. You’re the one asking for trust, so, you’re the one who provides evidence.”
Otherwise, you are, wait for a it… A TROLL!
(No, I didn’t call you a moron under my breath. You’re probably hearing things.)
Sister Golden Bear
@w_seattle:
Also there’s been polling showing the voters would’ve preferred something other than a Biden-Trump rematch. So I suspect they’re probably a bit extra tuned out this time around—i.e. why bother paying attention to something that you’re not particularly interested in, especially when both candidates are well known. Which is probably one reason we’re not seeing the polls move much either direction. Though it’ll be interesting to see if Republicans get the traditional temporary post-convention bounce.
I do think this is one reason Project 2025 is gaining traction. It’s both new, and has the potential for concrete effects on people’s lives. So they’re concerned and paying more attention to it.
WaterGirl
@SomeRandomGuy: There’s a lot of troll action on this thread, so I gave up on reading it.
As a result, I wasn’t speaking to any one person in particular with my comment about feeding the trolls.
Sister Golden Bear
@schrodingers_cat: They do.
anitamargarita
@dexwood: I called his office here in Santa Fe, likewise, disappointed in his statement. The guy who answered the phone was polite, so I was too.
SomeRandomGuy
I’m sorry – I’m a native speaker of English, so, when I said “wanking,” I didn’t mean actual jerking off. People use that term to discuss tiresome *mentation* that no one else really cares to hear about.
It doesn’t actually mean *wanking*. It’s like, “here you are, discussing your thoughts, and it’s as boring, and nearly as rude, as if you were jerking off, instead, in front of us! It’s not that your thoughts are *BAD*, it’s just, private thoughts are for PRIVATE TIMES. Give us some SOCIABILITY.”
‘zat help?
(Yes, calling you a wanker is grammatically correct. That is, my gramma would have called you a wanker.)
So, your “evidence” is that, a lot of shitstirrers started saying something that you liked to hear, and you didn’t both to do any post-debate statistical analysis because you’re both a wanker, and a loser. Well, that’s fine.
It doesn’t change the basic rules of logic, debate, or rhetoric. You’re the one saying everyone (except those who agree with you, naturally) are WRONGWRONGWRONG, so, you get to produce the evidence, or we all know what pitiful protracted losers you, and your ilk, are. Right?
Kay
@David Bell:
Most of them had you in their “pie filters” so didn’t read anything you wrote. BUT THEY KNOW YOU’RE WRONG ANYWAY. SO THERE.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: Don’t let the door hit ya, where the dog shoulda bit ya.
PS: you’re pathetic. I’d pay good money to see you go up against Azmodeus[sp] or Speaker to Minerals.
Sister Golden Bear
@Omnes Omnibus: <Willy Wonka gif> “Stop. Don’t. Come Back.”
Harrison Wesley
I’m looking at the 717th comment right now, and it appears that while various names change and come and go, the points made are always the same (although the language changes some). Sort of the way suspense is built in a series’ season-ending cliffhanger, with the unresolved plot points receiving greater and greater emphasis to build suspense – and the episode ends until the next season. Unfortunately it looks like this cliffhanger is going to last for weeks, not two or three hours.
Let’s hope it gets resolved this weekend and we continue with Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I have some beefs with the administration, but those are on foreign policy issues on which its stances are pretty mainstream; they’re not something specific to Biden or the Democrats.
I can vote for Biden, which I intend to do, but there’s no point in my calling anybody. Both my senators and my rep are Republicans. I’m sure they’re thrilled with Dems In Disarray.
SomeRandomGuy
@WaterGirl:
No worries, and your comment was well timed in any event.
As a result of my disability, I *do* have “does s/he mean me, especially?” worries, hence the comment. As a child, you would have been far *more* likely to have been referencing me until I learned (some) better :-).
Martin
@One of the Many Jens: That’s an excuse. There was no actual choice in the 2024 Dem primary. We’ve talked here recently about potential 2028 candidates, and none of them were on that ballot. You had one moderate everyone hates, and you had 13% of Michiganders choose ‘Nobody’ because again, there was no actual choice on that ballot.
Putin is the kind of guy that will proclaim his popular support on a ballot where he’s the only name on it. Democrats shouldn’t join him on that. If you can’t differentiate between an actual democratic choice and an incumbent anointment (which is entirely common in American politics) then you’re in no position to defend democratic values or attack authoritarian ones.
There has been no actual democratic input on who should be the nominee. That’s just what it is. The only input has been party insiders, Biden who controls the party, and donors. That’s been true since Biden announced he was running for re-election. That’s normal in our system. Don’t gaslight us with this ‘actual voters’ bullshit.
WereBear
@Sister Golden Bear: So glad they are proud of it. What if they had kept this secret?
We’d be the ones accused of conspiracy theories. But it’s WORSE than we could have come up with.
Kay
Has this news pierced the bubble yet? Cover your ears! Incoming!
That’s a big tree to fall. They really, really wanna hold that seat. Luckily, Kamala is rested and ready to go.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: I know all of you want me to go away so you can go back to a world where everyone agrees with you — but I have only said this:
Biden negatively impacted what was otherwise a fairly static campaign during a debate he asked for, which he actually needed to move the needle slightly in his favor in this razor-thin election. Since that event, he has only dug himself deeper — a piece of evidence borne out not only by what we can see with our own eyes, but actual data.
I believe Biden is not up to the task of moving the needle back in the right direction based upon my observation of Biden’s behavior following the debate. This is MY BELEF, not an objective fact, but I’m not alone in this belief. This isn’t something I got from “pundits.” Adam Schiff is not a pundit. Nancy Pelosi is not a pundit. Barack Obama is not a pundit.
The argument against my position that we should go with Kamala Harris (and I’m going to pretend you provided me with a response) is that it would be too complicated, and would only help Trump win.
I disagree. I’m not demanding you prove me wrong. I’m simply stating my point of view.
That seems to me like a discussion Americans ought to be able to have in an election with this much at stake. I seriously hope you all are right — since my children’ future depends on it.
Darkrose
@Shalimar: Also worth noting that DiFi’s opponent, Kevin DeLeon, subsequently proved to be a racist, homophobic sack of shit in addition to blowing off sexual harassment in the CA Senate when he was in charge there. As bad as DiFi was, we dodged a bullet there.
Sister Golden Bear
@schrodingers_cat: Because my last reply got partially eaten…
At the Bad Place, a Black woman was talking about how she and other Black women weren’t panicking because they’ve centuries developing resilience and resistance in face of oppression and intergenerational trauma. A Jewish person noted that Jews have had millennia of similar experiences.
It wasn’t said in a dismissive or Oppression Olympics way, rather that they absolutely got what the Black woman was saying because they’d been there too.
Both were drawing a contrast to how some white people seem to be freaking out because this is the first time they’ve ever faced an existential threat in their lives and didn’t have the tools nor the fortitude to deal with that.
David Bell
You guys want a debate?
I’ll challenge any one of you to an actual debate on this issue any time you want.
Something tells me you won’t take me up on the offer.
Lochnessmom
@Sister Golden Bear:
My significant other is trans. We aren’t taking chances with anybody other than Biden/Harris. We really don’t have the luxury.
And if this thread doesn’t get to double Tbogg I will be sort if sad.
Darkrose
@Chris: My wife keeps telling me I need to get the “Someone is being wrong on the internet” panel as a tattoo.
SomeRandomGuy
This, right here, that you’re doing right in the moment you wrote this reply? This is also called “wanking”. Now you know more about the English language.
I will discuss this argument with all the seriousness it deserves.
“Oh, yeah! That’s old GEORGE for you! Talks up a storm with those wooden teeth, but when it comes to putting the name on the ol’ parchmentarooni…”
(Stan Freeburg – I refuse to try to remember the name of the specific skit.)
Point being, the skit detailed Thom Jefferson trying to convince Ben Franklin to sign the DoI, and, oh, yeah, GEORGE is in favor, but didn’t sign the durn thing! You see what I’m saying, I’m sure, right?
Like, I do not like Adam Schiff for sure, and I’m holding off on Nancy Pelosi until I see actual journalism.
Um. Are you interested in the *specific* fallacies you’re engaging in?
w_seattle
@Sister Golden Bear: Good point on the newness of Project 2025. Hopefully the traction is ultimately meaningful.
Sister Golden Bear
@WereBear:
Not quite sure what you mean. Could you clarify?
Kay
@David Bell:
I’m with Kamala and good for you for wading in here. She’s terrific. She’ll mop the floor with Trump. Biden endorses, delegates vote, she easily wins a plurality and we have a real fight with Mr. Trump with someone who can take it to him. Sound good?
VP can be any reasonable Democrat- I don’t think that matters.
schrodingers_cat
@Sister Golden Bear: Being an immigrant in place where you a miniscule minority also makes you resilient and gives you a perspective which wouldn’t have got had you never left your privileged cocoon. Knowing that when push comes to shove you have no one to fall back on. Your family back home is too far to be of real help.
Of course I also had enough privilege to choose this life. I get that.
Aussie Sheila
@E:
Exactly. Anyone who thinks swapping out a perfectly good ticket for Johnny and Joanna Unbeatable at this stage simply hasn’t given real thought to the fuckery that lies in wait as Red State AGs and activists bring law suits to various Courts, including, inevitably the USSC.
Does anyone here seriously think any case brought before that Court would be resolved in a way likely to assist whatever Dem ticket was hoiked up at the Convention?
I respect those that are obviously Dem loyalists who are afraid atm.
I happen to think they are wrong.
But anyone advocating for a seriously disruptive move at this stage simply must answer some serious questions about future legal challenges, even if the demoralisation of the Party base doesn’t cut any ice.
SomeRandomGuy
I’ve never killfiled anyone before, you pathetic piece of shit.
You think *my* future doesn’t depend on it, you fucking twerp? You think the future of any of my family doesn’t depend on it, you pathetic human two laxatives shy of being a shithead?
“Oh, no, you don’t understand! I have a REASON to be a pathetic coward! I’m SURE my reason is better than YOURS because YOU don’t AGREE!”
Well, *SOME* of us have fucking *COURAGE* you goat-gonad-nibbler.
Jesus Christ, I think your name is even something USEFUL, which shouldn’t be the case, in a world with any justice.
japa21
@Kay: How do you guarantee Harris becomes the nominee? That is the point everyone is tiptoeing around. There is no guarantee. And yes, the news about Brown has been mentioned. Good for him. And Jeffries gave a rousing endorsement of Joe. Also a big statement.
Oh, and I have read everyone of David Bell’s comments trying to see if any of them made any sense. They didn’t.
ETA:
Sounds easy, doesn’t it? In real life, not quite. We disagree, and there is no objective way to resolve the disagreement, on whether or not that Harris can win and also whether or not Biden can take it to Trump. Let’s put it this way, if Biden does step down from the campaign, and Harris does become the nominee, I will pray, and do everything possible to make sure you are correct. I hope that if he doesn’t step down, you will do everything possible to make sure I am correct.
Sister Golden Bear
@w_seattle: On the Book of Faces, I’m seeing getting more and more mentions of Project 2025 by my normie friends who don’t follow politics. It’s scaring the hell out of them.
When I talk about it, I always tie it to the fact that even if they wish it weren’t Biden, ensuring Biden wins is the only way to head off Project 2025. I.e. if you don’t want to vote for Biden, then consider a vote against Trump.
FWIW, I’m starting to get Zuck’d everytime I mention it — it’s pretty clear there’s some algorithm flagging any mention of Project 2025 as being “against the rules.” Because reasons. Although so far, after appealing, I usually get my posts restored. Methinks the Republicans are getting nervous.
Still posting, but having to be more circumspect, just like I have to type “c!s” at the bad place because using “cis” will get you suspended thanks to Elon’s hatred of trans people.
Darkrose
@Villago Delenda Est: The Guardian was where I saw a front-page piece last month citing the usual anonymous Washington insiders blasting Harris’ office as “chaotic and dysfunctional.” One unnamed source said flat out that she’s not ready to be president. But sure, everyone will be excited about her, and she can totally beat Trump.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
Well you know what then, Aussie? It’s over anyway. If we have to be like deer in the damn headlights terrified that some crooked court won’t let us run, then we may as well hang it up anyway- the country is gone.
We’re no longer w/in the margin of error in even the blue wall states and we’re bleeding in places that should have been gimmees, like NM and VA. The house is on fire. Jump.
anitamargarita
@Geminid: maybe talk to Heinrich about the donor question. Seems pretty straightforward in his case.
The Lodger
@Omnes Omnibus: Remember there can’t be two New Yorkers on the same ticket.
O. Felix Culpa
Dear Balloon Juice,
New Mexico is not bleeding.
Yours,
A New Mexico resident and political activist
w_seattle
@Sister Golden Bear: Those normie responses are encouraging. A part of the post-debate landscape that is poorly understood is the impact of Elon buying a plaything to control the public square dialog. He clearly manipulates the platform, and the platform remains a central exchange for media-centric folks. I imagine his manipulations are more politically targeted than Zuck’s.
japa21
@Aussie Sheila:
Actually, as long as the nominating process has not taken place, there would be no grounds for going to court. If Biden steps down after the nomination is a fait accompli, then there would be an issue.
SomeRandomGuy
@Kay: You know what? I’m seriously wishing you’d had to spend one fucking night on suicide watch, *WITHOUT* someone who loved you to do the fucking watching.
I mean, in a hospital. With an aide who thinks you’re nothing but a PITA, and shoves her finger in, to make sure you haven’t found and concealed anything with which to kill yourself.
Not in a home, with a good friend, hot coffee/hot chocolate, etc..
SomeRandomGuy
@The Lodger: Dude, are you trolling, or didn’t you know that’s a nothing-technicality?
Sister Golden Bear
@schrodingers_cat:
Coming out as LGBTQ+ is somewhat similar experience for most of us. (Quisling white rich gay men homocons excepted.) You lose privileges that you didn’t even know you had. Plus things that you knew abstractly suddenly become very real. I knew about women’s safety fears, but it was quite another thing to experience walking to my car in heels late at night after going out, and being followed by a man.
For very different reasons, us LGBTQ+ folks know that feeling. There’s still sadly too many LGBTQ+ kids who are kicked out their homes, disowned by their families and/or need to flee their homes. I’ve also seen LGBTQ+ adults disowned by their entire families after coming out, even within the last year or two. There’s a reason why LGBTQ+ people created the idea of “family of choice.” We had to create our own circle of people who we could fall back on, who we could rely on for support.
Kay
@japa21:
Because she’d win delegates with Biden’s endorsement. In a walk. That’s the actual process – Biden endorses, releases his delegates, they vote. That’s the nomination and that’s 100% within the existing rules. Joe Biden can decide if Kamala Harris gets it- all he has to do is endorse and release his delegates.
A political party’s nominating process is not justiciable by courts. As long as they comply with the OH Statute there’s nothing to contest.
Imagine if we had a candidate who could start barnstorming. 4,5,6 events a day, crisp, prosecutorial attack on Trump. A candidate who our swing state senate candidates will agree to appear with, because they’re not going to appear with Biden. Lazy slob Trump won’t know what hit him. Then HE’S got the age issue.
TaMara
@debit: Somehow, this comes to mind. I don’t know why. 🤣😘
O. Felix Culpa
@Sister Golden Bear:
Yes to all of this.
TaMara
@debit: For some reason this comes to mind. I don’t know why. 🤣😘
Kay
@SomeRandomGuy:
I’m sorry did I somehow offend you? Was it the burning house/jump thing? That’s just rhetorical, meaning “the risk of sticking is now higher than the risk of not sticking”.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: You know who actually DOES have something at stake in this election?
Adam Schiff.
Because they’re going to try him in front of a military tribunal for treason and hang him on live television.
You think, maybe, he put a little thought into it before he came out in favor of Biden stepping aside?
I mean — he’s not a wired-in political genius like yourself — or these other legendary debaters you talk about. But he’s definitely got some skin in the game — probably more than just about ANYBODY.
You want some EVIDENCE that the debate had a serious negative impact on Biden’s campaign, and that his response to that negative impact has only made it worse?
SITTING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, SITTING SENATORS OF AN INCUMBENT PRESIDENT’S PARTY ARE PUBLICLY ASKING HIM TO STEP ASIDE AND LET HIS EXTREMELY CAPABLE Vice President TAKE OVER.
You ever seen anything like that in your — or anybody else’s — lifetime?
Let me answer for you: It’s a big NO.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE?
Could it be that this is an UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION that calls — at the very least — for an actual discussion of an alternative?
You can shove your insults genius.
schrodingers_cat
@Sister Golden Bear: Well put. Thanks for understanding. These conversations where supposed allies turn a deaf ear to what you are saying are so exhausting.
O. Felix Culpa
@schrodingers_cat: At this point, based on the evidence, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that some are not allies. It’s sad.
TaMara
Okay, I’ve stopped checking this thread, but seriously, if you think you’re going to convince anyone at this point by haranguing them over and over and over and over (especially if your argument is “because I said so”), I have a reality check for you.
I’m debating closing the comments, but if it keeps you here and not spreading your joy throughout the blog, it may be worth keeping it open.
minachica
@TaMara: Shhhh, don’t give them any ideas!
:)
Aussie Sheila
@Kay:
I hear you, and I’m not being disrespectful to those who are rightly terrified.
However, I’m old enough to remember the legal smarty pants who opined confidently on what the USSC decision would be re Immunity for US Presidents. In the event they introduced a whole new category called ‘Official Acts’, didn’t define it, and left open the possibility that a (Republican) President could direct the US Justice Dept to charge a political foe, or the IRS to perform audits on pesky organisations that oppose republicans.
The USSC terrifies me more that the US electorate. That Court knows exactly what it’s doing, and how to do it.
It’s up to political activists and leaders at all levels to drive the political debate and action towards what they want.
You simply can’t dismiss the catastrophe that would be wrought if the USSC were take a case on this matter.
Sister Golden Bear
@japa21:
Agreed, but part of the reason Republicans are salivating to file lawsuits if Biden isn’t the nominee is not that they expect to win.
Rather it’s to tie up Democratic time, money and resources defending these lawsuits, even if they’re quickly tossed out. Not just lawsuits about whether a non-Biden nominee can legitimately be on the ballot, but challenging things like access to previously-raised campaign funds, and anything else they can think of. Flood the zone with lawsuits. If they’re lucky and get a judge to play along all the better.
The second reason is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt, plus spread copious amounts of squid ink.
Third reason is to lay the ground work for asserting a winning non-Biden Democratic candidate is somehow illegitimate. It’ll be an extension of 2020’s Big Lie, either as SCOTUS bait, or to rile up the cultists for another 1/6. Remember they lost 60 court cases asserting election fraud, but the cult now takes it as an article of faith that Trump was cheated out of a victory.
Sister Golden Bear
@schrodingers_cat: Amen. I’m disappointed, not necessarily surprised.
O. Felix Culpa
@Sister Golden Bear: Good points all.
debit
@Kay: I don’t know what’s happened to you, but you’ve become mean. Never thought I’d see the day, but welcome to the filter.
David Bell
@Kay: I don’t have time to look at the negativity coming your way — but I’m new here. I have to tell you, this is worse than I thought. I mean, sitting Members of Congress, and sitting Senators of an incumbent president’s party — in a solid economy moving in the right direction thanks to the excellent job THIS PRESIDENT has done, and running against a proven loser, convicted felon, rambling old coot — are asking that president to step aside.
Talk about unprecedented! Jesus Christ — Adam Schiff is literally afraid Trump is going to drag him in front of a military tribunal for treason and hang him on live television!
And Democrats — people who literally want to beat Trump more than anything — are unwilling even to discuss the possibility that people like Adam Schiff might have an actual point? Damn — that’s fucking a bad situation.
I don’t hate Trump — I’m in hate with him. I loathe him and every one of his supporters with whatever is left of my soul. I used to believe in things — but all that is dead thanks to Trump. If Biden can beat him — I’ll — literally weep with joy and dance in the streets. I so hope Biden knows what he’s doing and can bring this thing in for a landing.
But if people who want the same things I do are actually even unwilling to DISCUSS it because they’re … I don’t know … TIRED OF TALKING ABOUT IT or something. When we still have time to do something about it?
I don’t get it.
If I’m missed the thread where they already explained how in fact we are out of time, I apologize.
But — I gotta tell you — if these people think THIS DISCUSSION is tiresome — the discussion over how we get our country back if we screw this up is really going to knock you out.
debit
@David Bell: Are you Minnesotan? Is this some version of the long goodbye? Here’s your Cool Whip container with leftovers, drive safe. Good bye!
David Bell
@debit: Like I said to someone else here — they should put you in charge of the Biden campaign — that whole “goodbye American voter who disagrees with me” approach really ought to work out great.
debit
@David Bell: You have spent an evening here making what I presume are your best, most persuasive arguments and at best one person agrees with you. You aren’t winning hearts or changing minds.
Feel free to come back and crow about how you were right after the election. I am sure you will be just as warmly received.
SomeRandomGuy
@David Bell: You really don’t understand how tiring and boring you are, do you?
Seriously: it’s not to late to change.
Xentik
@Kay: You are neglecting that released delegates can vote for whomever they want. You take it entirely on faith that a majority of the released candidates will vote for Harris based on Biden’s endorsement. There are people out there that do not want Harris and will not listen to Biden.
It already came out today that Marianne “make crystals not vaccines” Williamson is lobbying delegates in preparation for them being released. There are no guarantees that when the first vote comes it will be majority for Harris.
If you really want to make Harris the replacement you need to be calling he DNC every day to change the rules to lock delegates into voting for Harris. That would be a huge step towards allaying people’s fears that this will end with a donor-favorite candidate no one wanted.
MomSense
@O. Felix Culpa:
Ok Schrodinger’s Cat is the person who first accused me of being a bad ally when I came out and posted on Twitter Harris/Pritzker. Then all sorts of vague accusations about going back and reading how we didn’t support Harris or supported Bernie or something. Well go back and read them. You will see that I never supported Warren or Sanders. I was for Harris thenBiden and hoped and agitated for Harris as VP. I got called a troll for my criticism of Warren and Buttigieg on this blog over things they had said and policies of Buttigieg relating to economic development and demolishing homes in poor neighborhoods. There have been so many times when everyone was annoyed with Schrodinger’s Cat and I defended her.
I should also add that my grandmother suffered much discrimination was called the n word and relegated to cooking, cleaning, and caring for children of rubber company magnates because of her skin color. So many experiences of racism in my childhood haunt me because I saw how people treated her. They always thought she was our nanny and said such stupid things. Every visit to the grocery store was rife with micro aggressions. This is personal to me.
It is also a fact that some of the most influential POC voices on Twitter have been cultivated by the Biden Harris administration. I have relatives who have been at events with them!At the White House. They are influencers. There have been many rifts in K hive over the years. There was a big blow up and Kenny left briefly.
I go way back with propane Jane when we were both part of Meta’s black water dog blog and the old Obama blog. I respect her so much. She is fucking brilliant. IRLI volunteer with an immigrant advocacy group in Portland. I go to the social events. I volunteer at the futsol tournaments so the parents can enjoy the games. Twitter is not real life and does not represent the opinions of all POC. I know that I disagree with black Twitter on this issue and so do the majority of my friends who are from Somalia, Angola, Senegal, Sudan, Iraq, Congo. The polling of Black voters and Hispanic voters is also more aligned with my opinion. Disagreeing on this issue does not make me a racist. And all of you can go to hell for making me feel like I have to present my bona fides like some fucking Karen to prove to a bunch of mostly white people that I am listening. If I tell you that Shukri can’t understand Biden’s fsmily and thinks it was elder abuse to put that poor man through this does that prove to you I’m not a racist? If there are mass deportations she will be in danger. She is black and wears a hijab. My son was fucking bullied at school for months and asked to provide his green card daily by other kids because of the way he looks. I have had a checkout clerk at the grocery store ask him WHAT he is because his skin and eyes are so dark. We are talking about getting him to Greece to be safe if Trump wins. Maybe I don’t want to lose this election because I have people I care about who will be harmed. No zhena I do not want trump and fuck you for saying so. And now like the troll you think i am, go fuck yourselves. Enjoy your postcards – really that is the perfect activity for you since you don’t hear back from them so nothing will penetrate your fucking self-righteous bubbles
.
PatD
@Darkrose: A similar issue in that race in that better candidates sat out because they listened to the establishment and party consensus that Feinstein should continue despite her clear decline.
David Bell
@MomSense: I am a long-time Balloon Juice reader — but this was the first time I ever commented on a thread.
And — wow!
This has really been eye-opening for me. If this is the level of discussion happening at a place like Balloon Juice — that’s not good.
When I argue with MAGA people online — which I do far too much and for too long — they always bring up obviously disprovable “facts” they got out of Trump’s butthole. When I point that out, they call me an idiot.
But I didn’t make up Adam Schiff coming out against Biden. I didn’t make up the true fact that neither Nancy Pelosi nor Barack Obama have come to Biden’s defense. That seems serious to me — and the response is to actually ignore it.
It’s like one of those Charlie Kirk videos, where he “debates” a bunch of teenage liberals and “destroys” them with a staw man he brushes aside like magic. Ignoring an argument you disagree with is not a method of debate. Like I said, I’m new here. I guess everybody here is tired of this discussion — but damn, you ought at least be able to respond.
No wonder those MAGA types I’ve been arguing with for so many years think they’re so smart. If this is the level of debate most liberals are bringing to the table, to paraphrase a well-known rapist and convicted felon we’re “not bringing our best people.”
Slightly_peeved
@Xentik:
If David or Kay want to have an actual discussion, as opposed to hearing their own heads roar, then they have to address what AOC said – that Biden stepping down doesn’t necessarily lead to a Harris nomination. Whether Harris would do well is basically besides the point
One of the Many Jens
@Martin: Insofar as I can know you through this place, I have always liked and respected you, appreciated your input, and agree with you on many things. On this, however, I don’t. I am not gaslighting anyone, I mean, what on earth? and what you’re advocating is quicksand. Everyone knew the process going in, and politicos had the opportunity to take advantage of that process, or not. Then those primary voters who wanted to vote had the opportunity to do so. Same as any other election. Is it a perfectly designed process? No, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the alternatives. So now what, we get to have state contingents in some virtual smoke-filled backroom roll the dice instead?
Or maybe it’s just this one. Next election maybe the primary voters select someone you do support. What then? Do the primaries mean anything then? Or if a loud enough faction creates a loud enough stink, do they get to overturn your vote, too?
I prefer democracy, as imperfect as it may be, to anarchy.
TaMara
TaMara
Bill Arnold
@David Bell:
There was a “David Bell” dooming a bit here Feb 17 2022, about the lack of prosecutions (at the time) of now-convicted-felon Donald J. Trump.
That wasn’t you?
Anyway, I am annoyed that you and a previous stream of several other pop-ups, making very similar arguments, have managed to seriously muck this site up, a site that punches an order of magnitude above its weight, and is one of the few that don’t reflexively follow the crowd. (The crowd is not always wise.)
It’s a waste of time. 80 percent of the focus needs to be on attacking the Trump/Vance ticket, boosting the Biden administrations record, and attacking the Trump/Vance ticket’s lies about the Biden administrations record.. This intra-party fight has lost the Democrats 3 weeks (plus) of potentially anti-Trump news cycles and traded them for anti-Democrat news cycles, and many(most) of the media outlets have been eating it up and making money off of it and seriously shaping the narratives. (Their owners are happy about the boosting of Trump.)
As it stands, the Democrats will probably not win (regardless of the pair of persons on the ticket) without ruthless campaigning and ratfucking, IMO, due to this fight and more important, its amplification by the media and by moneyed interests.
debit
@TaMara: Thanks for this. I have found him to be steadfast and unflinching in the face of the current hysteria.
David Bell
@Slightly_peeved: I agree that Biden, stepping aside would not automatically lead to Kamala Harris ascending to the nomination. That’s also a risk of moving forward with a nominee other than Biden. No doubt. I would argue against nominating anyone other than Kamala Harris, just like I’m arguing now that Biden doesn’t look like the best possible nominee at this point, but that’s all I got. Arguments.
I just think there is an awful lot of evidence that Biden is in serious trouble and that he can’t get out of it. I don’t know that I’m right. I hope I’m wrong. But I have some actual concerns about it, and, apparently, so do a lot of other people with a lot more at stake than me, and a lot more access to inside information.
i’m not doing that to prove that I’m right. I have no idea if I’m right. I just think we should be able to discuss it. Again, I guess everybody’s tired of talking about the election at this point, but, I’m afraid we’re just gonna have to talk it out. ignoring the problem, doesn’t seem to me like a valid response
debit
@Slightly_peeved: Shhh. Don’t question the wisdom of the underpants gnomes!
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
As the LGBTQ+ youngs that I have spent time with taught me, “If it’s not about you, then it’s not about you.”
I appreciate that feelings are running high right now, which is why I tried to engage respectfully. Apologies if I missed that mark. I wish you hadn’t resorted to name-calling and invective when, to the best of my recall, I used neither.
David Bell
@Bill Arnold: Thanks for the response. I am honestly a big fan of balloon juice. I suppose it’s possible I did comment on the lack of urgency from Merrick Garland back in the day. That certainly is possible. I think I do remember that I was definitely much more in favor of an aggressive approach to prosecuting Trump than the general tenor of the discussion on balloon juice. But I honestly don’t come here to screw people up.
I agree 80% of the effort needs to go into attacking Trump, which is probably about the right percentage for me. I’m not giving up on attacking Trump. I don’t think it’s fair to blame people with questions about Biden’s capability to win this election for Biden‘s lack of ability to get back on track.
whatever. I’ve made my position clear. I appreciate you actually responding to something I said instead of accusing me of jerking off on my keyboard. Sorry if heated discussions about serious political issues with other Americans who care about this country “muck this site up.” I’ll try harder in the future to keep my mouth shut
Geminid
@anitamargarita: I read the Heinrich/donor story yesterday and I said what I thought about it then.
But I did not say at #367 that donors are not trying to throw tbeir weight around, I expressed scepticism that it’s the donors as a class behind this scheme because there are plenty of big donors and just a fraction of them can make a lot of noise. Especially now, when reporters and their editors are propagating any and all anti-Biden news they can.
Xentik
@David Bell: As a Democrat, if you feel this way, contact the DNC and demand rules changes for the convention. The Call for Convention 2024 rules as they stand make it easy for someone to usurp the nomination in the case Biden steps down. A simple rules change could force pledged delegates to be assigned to the VP nominee in case the Presidential nominee steps down.
These changes can be made before Biden steps down (and must be done before then), regardless of what the final outcome is. Just like we’ve been calling our Reps and Senators demanding they support Biden, you could be pressuring the DNC to clean up the rules to prevent donors from pulling the rug out from under us if they get Biden to step down.
MomSense
@O. Felix Culpa:
It was not respectful. The only positive was you directed it at me (which is why I responded since you made it about me) unlike the passive aggressive bullshit.
Elizabelle
Is this the longest thread we’ve had? Not sure the Memorium threads were ever longer.
PatD
@Aussie Sheila: It’s interesting because a “catastrophe” all across the ballot is exactly what many are concerned about if Biden can’t find a way to restore confidence from voters.
Mr. Bemused Senior
Good point and so true. The schemers are working hard and this is a real danger.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@David Bell: Debate bros are the worst. First of all, what do you think this conversation full of arguments is?
SatanicPanic
@Elizabelle: I haven’t been here in ages but I seem to remember a few 1000+ threads, but who knows.
O. Felix Culpa
@MomSense:
I’m trying to understand where I was disrespectful. I re-read my comment, and the only thing I saw that might have been misconstrued as disrespectful was when I used the word “you” in a general or universal sense, but which could have been taken personally. If that’s the case, I apologize for the lack of clarity. My intent was to be clear on what I thought had been missing in the conversation on BJ and to do it in a measured way. I did not then or previously engage in invective towards you, nor did I disparage your community OR GOTV efforts. I tried to be friendly, since I have great respect for you, although I disagree with you on this matter. Your response was uncalled for.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@SatanicPanic: A double T-Bogg is not unheard of. We had some wild long threads during the ’08 and ’16 primaries.
Darkrose
@PatD: The CA Democratic Party endorsed DeLeon.
I pointed out how problematic his history on sexual harassment was on LGM and was told that it wasn’t important because Feinstein was just that bad. But sure, it’s the voter’s fault for not shutting up about the party’s preferred candidate being a shitheel because if the ladies would just shut up about being harassed we’d be fine.
SatanicPanic
@Kay: I agree. I don’t think there’s any real way Biden can turn it around anyway.
Let’s just imagine we’re worried that Republicans finagle a way to keep Harris off the ballot in Ohio, so we nominate Biden. Now he’s got to show up a campaign in a state where the one statewide elected Democrat has told him to step down. Either way it’s a write off because asking voters to vote for both is now awkward af. The danger now is that Brown loses because people don’t show up for Biden. It’s all fucked and even if I weren’t in favor of Biden stepping aside already, I think he’s too wounded.
As far as the delegates- I really don’t know. But I’m skeptical that we should believe AOC over anyone else of note. She could very well be wrong.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@SatanicPanic: We just keep throwing wood on this fire, why won’t it stop burning…?
SatanicPanic
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: yeah I was thinking 2016 was wild. Are we ready to call this the most divisive election on the Dem side or were the Bernie vs Hillary wars worse?
O. Felix Culpa
Deleted.
SatanicPanic
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: I mean, you’re right but it’s also like , how does anyone put it out? I guess they could force through an early nomination but that wouldn’t be popular
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@SatanicPanic: I know my own personal emotional state was worse for Bernie vs. Hillary.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
@SatanicPanic: Just accept the votes that happened, show up, bring some friends, win. This isn’t all about Biden. This isn’t mostly about Biden. There’s a whole government to elect.
Let’s simply win, top to bottom of the ballot. Vote.
SatanicPanic
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: that was a bad time. I wonder if in some other timeline Bernie won
The Lodger
@UncleEbeneezer: I honestly don’t care if Biden is an adequate candidate. He’s an excellent President.
Cacti
@TaMara: I’m sorry, but is the “Hillary is never wrong” some kind of terrible joke?
Chris
@SatanicPanic:
The most divisive election on the Dem side would be something like 1924 or 1948 or 1968 (I know there’s others, that’s just off the top of my head). Something where the divide was actually over substantive disagreements between factions that didn’t just want different candidates, they wanted fundamentally different and irreconcilable things, with neither of them being willing to take a back seat to the other anymore.
The whole thing that makes modern primaries so goddamn stupid is that there’s so little to argue about in the first place. Everybody agrees on the vast majority of things, and policy differences are largely a matter of degree. The primaries are therefore left to be
1) a beauty pageant (“which of these candidates really sends little starbursts through MY screen,” to coin a phrase),
2) a mind-reading exercise (“which of these candidates will be best at appealing to the normies”), and
3) a grudge match (“which of these candidates has made the missteps that piss off the most of us within this party”).
2 is the most important, but also the hardest to gauge, since by definition people who care enough about politics to stay up at night wondering about this are anything but normies, and the small demographic of normies that actually swings elections are by far the stupidest people in politics and therefore the hardest to predict. 1 is the least substantive, but you can’t ignore it since most people emotionally connect to a candidate and then have real trouble letting them go. 3 is easily the most tedious and the one most bound to remind everybody why ordinary people fucking hate politics and consider it the most nasty backbiting petty small-minded bullshit generator they’ve ever seen since middle school, but alas, it’s also unavoidable.
The Lodger
@SatanicPanic: I think Bernie vs Hillary was still more memorable than Biden vs The Masked Singer.
Gretchen
@David Bell: We aren’t hiring Biden to run a marathon for us. We’re hiring him to negotiate with Congress and foreign leaders, and his stiff walk doesn’t interfere with that at all. His foreign policy press conference impressed me and made me think that, with all his knowledge of history and relationships with other leaders, he’s the best person for the job right now.
Gretchen
@SatanicPanic: it’s crazy to me that anyone who remembers the Bernie/Hillary wars of 2016 thinks that we’d just all come together kumbaya to support some candidate nobody thought of until last week.
PJ
@SatanicPanic:
If people aren’t going to show up to vote for Democrats because of Biden, they were never going to show up to vote for Democrats. This whole argument is utter bullshit.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@SatanicPanic: “She could very well be wrong.”
She could very well be right, too. You would be wrong then, right? Do we need to do more obvious shit like this or is this enough?
Fuck this weak-assed shit, you people got nothing but your vapors.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@bluefoot: yeah, without 95-100% alignment on both the “who” and the “how” the process is a kludge at best and an absolute ratfuck (maybe Tulsi and Maryanne Williamson and Phillips will muck up the process) at worst
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Gretchen:
I get a spooky feeling that this is Bernie Bros v2. As in they want Biden to drop out, Kamala to be bypassed or tossed to the sharks and then when everyone is looking for the White Man who can Save the Day, Bernie steps up as their savior. I laughed earlier when one person here said that this was a wishful idea of theirs.
I knew it was coming…
PatD
@Darkrose: think you may be confusing the party with the voters. The voters chose Feinstein; the anti-Feinstein contingent coalesced around DeLeon (obviously a terrible mistake) who was also the only serious challenger.
I think my larger point is regret that someone didn’t mount a serious challenge to Biden early and face him in a primary debate.
PatD
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Resorting to the white man who can save the day is how we got in this mess.
PatD
@PJ: It’s not at all bullshit. Clinton couldn’t win voters that Obama won. Biden, at this point, is losing voters he won over in 2020.
Jay
Pretty sure the trolls “ain’t here for the hunting”,
I am just here for the double TBogg.
mrstealyourcostcosample
@PatD: stop it
mrstealyourcostcosample
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: i dunno, HRC/Obama was very funky and nasty (and had that wild period in 2007 where Rush Limbaugh (rest in piss) was backing Obama b/c he thought it’d muck up Hillary
mrstealyourcostcosample
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: i dunno, HRC/Obama was very funky and nasty (and had that wild period in 2007 where Rush Limbaugh (rest in piss) was backing Obama b/c he thought it’d muck up Hillary
mrstealyourcostcosample
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: i dunno, HRC/Obama was very funky and nasty (and had that wild period in 2007 where Rush Limbaugh (rest in piss) was backing Obama b/c he thought it’d muck up Hillary
mrstealyourcostcosample
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: i dunno, HRC/Obama was very funky and nasty (and had that wild period in 2007 where Rush Limbaugh (rest in piss) was backing Obama b/c he thought it’d muck up Hillary
mrstealyourcostcosample
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: i dunno, HRC/Obama was very funky and nasty (and had that wild period in 2007 where Rush Limbaugh (rest in piss) was backing Obama b/c he thought it’d muck up Hillary
mrstealyourcostcosample
@The Kropenhagen Interpretation: i dunno, HRC/Obama was very funky and nasty (and had that wild period in 2007 where Rush Limbaugh (rest in piss) was backing Obama b/c he thought it’d muck up Hillary
PatD
@mrstealyourcostcosample: Hmm, make an argument or move on.
David Bell
@Gretchen: I don’t think Biden is going to have a lot of trouble convincing Balloon Juice readers to vote for him. No one here questions whether Biden is better than Trump, or even whether he can do the job of president. The question is simply whether he can win enough swing voters — people who, literally, have not made up their minds about whether Biden or Trump would be better — to win the election. I don’t think he can. Others disagree.
Ishiyama
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
If you are referring to my comment, you have misinterpreted my purpose in illustrating an outcome that would depend upon agreement between Biden, Harris, and Sanders – not casting Harris aside for a white savior – (unless Jews are WASPs, now). I support Biden/Harris, and do not want to substitute Bernie at the top of the ticket. I trust this clarifies things. And if you are still holding a grudge about 2016, tell me why Hillary didn’t put Bernie on the ticket with her.
divF
@debit: Cosign. Over and out Kay.
sab
@divF: Seriously?
“Over and out” makes no sense. It is either “over” ( other guy’s turn to talk) or it’s “out” ( I am done with this conversation.)
ETA I otherwise agree with your comment and debit’s. But my husband shrieks at the tv everytime he hears “over and out.”
Repatriated
It’s valid if there are others on the same channel also. It’s a legacy of radios (like the old CB radios) that didn’t support simultaneous two-way conversations.
“Over”: I’m freeing up the channel (by stopping talking), so it’s your turn to talk (to anyone still here and listening).
“and Out”: … but as for me, I’m leaving the channel.
sab
@Repatriated: Thanks for the clarification. Another new thing I learned today on this full service blog.
Chris Johnson
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Bernie’s my Senator. I worked for him, and at the time (2016) there were a bunch of suspect people who’d joined to ‘help’ and he got rid of all of them. Some are still out there being just as suspect.
Bernie knows right from wrong and he has been briefed on what happened to him, has known for years, and that’s when he pivoted hard to supporting Clinton and then Biden. It is flat out impossible he can be roped into any such dumbass plan, and if provoked he can and will rail angrily to the press about it. Nah guh ha pen.
Chris Johnson
@TaMara: This might be some fun ‘glue trolls to this thread with tasty bait’ while also being a real speculation:
Let’s assume Hillary Clinton is a power broker as always. What do you think the consequences are of being a Dem mega-donor, being caught out as someone tied to the dump Biden camp, and then LOSING, since all your hopes are tied up in Joe Biden personally being fooled by media manipulation and dirty tricks? If it was a vote amongst pundits, the outcome seems fairly clear. You could even finagle things to make it near unanimous.
Yet, they are not actually in the chain of command (shocking, right?) and so one old man appears to have, not only the power to say ‘nope, not buying it’, but heck, not only does he have that power but he’s also got presidential immunity so even if his refusal to step down was deemed a CRIME he gets away with it :)
So let’s assume he runs. And we all have to vote for him because them’s the rules, the Trump shitpile isn’t gonna smell any better in a few months. You’re left with continuity and a situation where the hard Left, the progressives, have fought for the President, and yet some of THEIR enemies have apparently committed the sin of coming at the King and missing.
Do you think, given that Hillary Clinton is in the King’s camp, that there might be consequences for ‘big Dem donors’ who didn’t keep the faith? That they might not be able to cut in line and shut out the progressives whose ideas address things like economic inequality, climate change, etc?
I just think it’s interesting that now there’s big, vindictive powerbrokers lining up alongside the leftist hippies in favor of keeping Biden and our power structure intact, rather than smashing it. I feel like Hillary Clinton might remember who moved against Biden. She’s sharp as hell and has never stopped being that smart, the trouble with her was more unwillingness to throw it open to a floor fight and to random newer Dems.
SomeRandomGuy
See, first, you were speaking stupidly, without facts. Now, you’re inventing them.
No, all of those people did not say “Joe, it’s time to let Kamala take over.” They said “It’s time for Joe to step aside.” from the MOMENT the debate *ENDED*. (See, if you just use a *few* caps, it creates a better bold/strong appearance.)
I’ve wasted far too much time on someone who likes to make up facts, and doesn’t understand evidence.
David Bell
@SomeRandomGuy: Did you get any on the keyboard when you jerked out that last comment you pathetic brain-damaged wanker? Don’t worry sweetie — I won’t disturb your precious circle jerk again.
opiejeanne
This thing is still rolling, and there’s a lot of pie, cookies, sea lions, eeyores, and cupcakes.
Ruckus
@TaMara:
MLK is always a great voice.
Proud to share a name with him.
And no, I’m not saying which one on line.