Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

When the time comes to make an endorsement, the pain of NYT editors will be palpable as they reluctantly whisper “Biden.”

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

I am pretty sure Katy Tur wasn’t always such a bootlicking sycophant.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

…and a burning sense of injustice to juice the soul.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about it’s history.”

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.

We’re not going back!

This blog will pay for itself.

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

You are here: Home / Elections 2024 / Saturday Morning Open Thread: Fly Me to the Moon

Saturday Morning Open Thread: Fly Me to the Moon

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Fifty-five years! Way to make some of us feel old…

The cosmos is providing a full moon for the 55th anniversary of the first lunar landing this weekend, and plenty of other events honor Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin’s giant leap.

Aldrin, 94, the last surviving member of the Apollo 11 crew, headlines a gala at the San Diego Air and Space Museum on Saturday night. He’ll be joined by astronaut Charlie Duke, who was the voice inside Mission Control for the July 20, 1969 moon landing.

Museum President Jim Kidrick couldn’t resist throwing a bash “55 years to the day of one of the most historic moments in not only the history of America, but in the history of the world.”…

… [Y]ou can explore all things Apollo 11 on a special website by the Smithsonian Institution’s National Air and Space Museum.

If nothing else, soak in the full moon Saturday night into Sunday morning.

Here’s a rundown of some Apollo 11 tributes…


BOLD PAC



Speaking of space cadets... Captain Obvious alerted his readers that Gimme Tha Money — excuse me, Pass The Torch — has a demonstration scheduled in DC later today:

Reader Interactions

539Comments

  1. 1.

    WereBear

    I lived close to “the Cape” at the time, and so my primary school went to the auditorium and watched the whole thing on television, with children whose parents sent men to the moon.

    We would stand on the beach and watch the rockets flare in the distance. So I grew up a science nerd. :)

  2. 2.

    NotMax

    Shortage of smiles ’round these parts of late. Seems we could use some to decompress.

    Weekend longish watch/listen funnies: Everything but the rimshots.

  3. 3.

    JMG

    It’s really wild (and awful) that the nonstop topic among Democrats for this entire month has been something in which only one man, Joe Biden, has the power to make the decision. The rest of it is irrelevant. I’m with Cole. Tell me when it’s decided. Until then, I’m checking out.

  4. 4.

    BellyCat

    The SCROTUS’ Roe overturning is THE central issue to focus on to get people on the margins to show up and vote Blue.

    The rest is good, but of secondary importance to disengaged voters. Full stop.

  5. 5.

    WereBear

    Since Bob Newhart was shortchanged by events, a favorite phone video.

    I was a fan of ALL of his shows, even the short-lived one where he was the comic book creator of “Mad Dog,” a superhero with the adrenal glands of a Doberman Pinscher.

  6. 6.

    zhena gogolia

    I think I’m going to have to stay away from the blog until certain “longtime commenters” give it a rest. It’s not that I want to convince them, I’m just fucking sick of having to rehash the same thing every singe fucking time. Can we talk about something else? I know the frontpagers are trying. It’s starting to seem abusive at this point.

  7. 7.

    matt

    when you have rich people throwing around money, you end up with Matt Yglesias buzzing around like a fly on a turd.

  10. 10.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @zhena gogolia:
    @NotMax:

    Why d’ya think I’m barely around?

    TBH, it’s the constant rending of garments. Things are what they are. We can do what little we can but the reality is it is precious little.

  11. 11.

    lowtechcyclist

    Good morning, y’all, and welcome to another day of this goddamned drama that never ends.

    If I had more energy, I’d be tempted to make a big “RIDIN’ WITH BIDEN” sign and drive in to this little ‘Pass the Torch’ bullshit demo this afternoon. But I’ve got other stuff to do.

  15. 15.

    TBone

    Found a meme of fElon tryna look tuff in black cowpoke hat.  His xit says, simply, “Texas.’

    The responder says:

    “This guy definitely gets his salsa in New York City.”

    😆

  17. 17.

    BellyCat

    @zhena gogolia: If you are referring to my comment, this would be unfortunate. AL included several links related to women’s reproductive health and the lack of celebration of these restrictions at the RNC convention.

    The larger GOP knows this topic is their Achilles’ heel and are trying to memory hole their victory. This seems our biggest and best opportunity to prevail in November and we need to beat this drum repeatedly.

    If you feel differently, let’s hear some argument. Or folks can talk about anything other than politics on this political blog.

    (GO NASA!)

  18. 18.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @zhena gogolia: I second that emotion. It’s been infuriating and disappointing. But it’s letting us know who you’d want with you in the foxhole, right?

  19. 19.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    ROFL so they looked at the state of the election and decided history is calling Dean Phillips?  No wonder the Drop Biden effort has that yet another ass effort by a mediocre entitled white boi stench over it.

    I can see the campaign slogan “Philips 2024, America, we can meh this!”

    I will note that the bit of the drop Biden effort who have actual enthusiasm are young white woman who think with Harris they get their chance at woman president,  I can not imagine how pissed they would be at after this mess the ticket turns out to be just some old white dude.

  21. 21.

    TBone

    Making fruit salad today.  The simple dressing that preserves it is made with honey and fresh squeezed lime juice.  Chill and serve over a small scoop of Haagen Das vanilla.  Lordy!

  23. 23.

    ColoradoGuy

    Had a summer job at NASA Headquarters in the summer of 1969. Little metal Bell System speakers spread throughout the offices carried a live feed from CapCom during the mission.

  27. 27.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @zhena gogolia: The way I see it,  there is plenty of space to mock Trump and my latest chew tow, Dead Dean Philips.  (edited to correct misspelling)

  30. 30.

    Betty Cracker

    Thank dog it’s baseball season. My team is .500 at best, but it’s something to focus on that allows me to ignore the colossally tedious intra-party squabble, in which no one is covering themselves in glory, imo.

    The distraction is welcome since I’m mostly isolating at home. Covid is running rampant again, and I’m immunocompromised. Poor Bill is doing the shopping, which used to be my job. I have to explain in detail where many items are in the store because it’s not always logical.

    There must be people who specialize in that branch of merchandising. I have questions for them!

  31. 31.

    Eyeroller

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: As others have noted, we’re actually fighting a two-front war here.  The main one is with certain members of the “Democratic leadership” and one group of megadonors.  The second is this rearguard action against “Pass the Torch” and its much more explicitly Republican group of donors.

    Once I heard what AOC said about her internal polling and learned who was doing these internal polls that keep being cited by Democratic leakers–I mean leaders– against Biden, I believe I now understand exactly what is going on with the “Democratic leadership” battle.  It’s really ugly and stupid, needless to say.

  35. 35.

    WereBear

    @Betty Cracker: I have to explain in detail where many items are in the store because it’s not always logical.

     
    In our house, both of us have fallen for deceptive packaging and products in the wrong place. It’s not all his fault :)

  36. 36.

    raven

    @WereBear: It’s a cute movie with Sam Neill!

     

    It’s the biggest event since sheep invented wool! Apollo 11’s astronauts will walk on the moon — and the 1,000-ton satellite dish in tiny, sheep-farming Parkes, Australia, will beam that historic first step around the globe. But as giddy citizens prepare for the moment when the entire world will depend on them, the dish flatlines. And its unconventional Aussie crew and its by-the-book NASA supervisor from the U.S. have very different ideas about how to fix it. A culture clash of cosmic proportions erupts in this fact-based tale of how the biggest televised event in history was almost not televised. The Dish, with Sam Neill (Jurassic Park), Patrick Warburton (Seinfeld) and others in a skilled ensemble portraying a spirited array of techies and townies, “will send you to the moon and back laughing” (Bruce Kirkland, Toronto Sun).

  40. 40.

    Eyeroller

    @NotMax: Stores also occasionally reorganize whole groups of products just so you have to wander around looking at other items, trying to find what you wanted.

  42. 42.

    BellyCat

    @The Thin Black Duke: Your concern is noted (as is your projection, which seems out of character tbh). We share the same goals. 

    This whole “rooting out the supposed enemies within” thing that’s been going on here lately has been disheartening but instructive.

    I will endeavor not to comment on any future political topics raised on the front page. My sincerest apologies for misunderstanding the intent of this blog.

    ETA: just saw your apology. Thanks for recognizing the inappropriate pile-on nature of your comment.

  44. 44.

    raven

    @The Thin Black Duke: Nah, I get it. I’ve tried to stay out of this because I think Joe is shot but that’s just what I think, no amount of arguing is going to change it. I’ll vote for him if he runs, that’s the best I can do.

  45. 45.

    Splitting Image

    I assume everyone has heard about the big Crowdstrike disaster that grounded a bunch of airlines, among other things.

    Apparently Southwest Airlines was not affected, because they still run Windows 3.1.

    I still run Windows 3.1 through Dosbox, mostly to run Civilization II. I have some other old games set up as well, but mainly Civ2. I’ve never thought of using it to run an airline though.

  46. 46.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Eyeroller: It’s really ugly and stupid, needless to say.

    Yes, Dean Phillips, in other words.

    Take a step back and look at the forest. What do the drop Bideners want.

    One group wants Harris, fair enough, replacing president is the vice president’s job.

    The other group refuses to even name their replacement candidate. Which means they know they would laughed out of the room when they do it.  And now we know why, it’s Dean Phillips (which shows I know nothing, I thought it was Joe Manchin)

    I have said it before and I will say it again, the people driving this know Mushroom Dick is toast in the election, and are trying to get their meat puppet up as the Democratic candidate.

  47. 47.

    Darkrose

    @TBone: OMG! I still remember a friend camping out for Power Station tickets! We ended up with pretty good seats for what turned out to be a great show.

  49. 49.

    BR

    There are a number of cranky people who are whining online, similar to dem leadership I guess, that Harris was not selected in any primary so it’s not “her turn”. Even that phrasing negates that she is the sitting VP who won in the 2020 general election with Biden.

  52. 52.

    Eyeroller

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: ​I’m afraid it’s not at all the same. The Dean Phillips clown show is completely separate. Let me just say that some idols may have feet of clay.​

    The Pass The Torch clowns probably want Trump since the funders are, after all, mostly Republicans. The others don’t know what they want.

  53. 53.

    WereBear

    It’s the little things that count. Sir Tristan, foster bottle baby, is going to be fourteen. During the Pandemic, we lost three cats rather quickly, between old age and an emergency rehoming.

    He grieved a lot, and long, but now his fur is starting to grow back. It’s a long process, getting him back from the brink, but my vet says it’s the best turnaround she’s ever seen. “And you caught it before the skin got involved.”

    As Benjamin Franklin said at the original Revolution: We must all hang together, or we will all hang separately.

  55. 55.

    debit

    @raven: It’s been my mantra for the last 8 years that I can only control my own actions.  Trying to make anyone do anything is crazy making for all parties.

  56. 56.

    Chief Oshkosh

    I’m ridin’ with Biden and Harris.

    And I feel fine.

    Another $81 to them yesterday after the announcement that they’re staying in.

  61. 61.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, … Phys.org:

    […]

    Cats by the kilogram

    House cats are a lot like people: They live in a climate-controlled, indoor environment, relax on furniture, and generally have ready access to prepared food. So scientists have come around to the idea that they’re a great disease model for human maladies. In a new study, researchers at The Ohio State University analyzed feline gut microbes to study the origins of obesity.

    Jenessa Winston, assistant professor of veterinary clinical sciences at The Ohio State University, says, “Animals share our beds. They share our ice cream. There are all these things that people do with their pets that highlight they are a naturally occurring disease model with similar environmental exposures as humans.”

    The researchers fed seven obese cats a four-phase diet: For the first two weeks, cats ate commercial cat food via open feeding; for one week, they were freely fed a weight-loss formulation; then they switched for 11 weeks to a calorie-restricted weight-loss diet; and finally, they returned to the original maintenance diet. By analyzing fecal samples, the researchers could track changes in the metabolites produced by the cats’ gut bacteria, which are associated with metabolic factors throughout the body, including hormonal signals related to inflammation and insulin resistance.

    An abundance of a short-chain fatty acid, propionic acid, increased during weight loss. “When the cats are on the special diet formulated for weight loss, propionic acid goes up and stays high, and then goes back down when they’re put back on the maintenance diet. So it really is a dietary change,” says Winston.

    […]

    What’s going on with the little beasties in our gut matters a lot!

    Hang in there, everyone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  62. 62.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Betty Cracker:

    The distraction is welcome since I’m mostly isolating at home. Covid is running rampant again, and I’m immunocompromised. Poor Bill is doing the shopping, which used to be my job. I have to explain in detail where many items are in the store because it’s not always logical.

    Well, it’s arguably logical to SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE.

    Typically, though, once you learn how the aisles are stocked, you’re generally good to go.  I hate going in a new store to grocery shop.

    Even worse are stores (such as the big-box hardware stores like Lowe’s or Home Depot) where they rearrange the entire damned store to accommodate “seasonal” items.

  64. 64.

    debit

    @WereBear: That’s great news about Tristan.  My floofy boy Julian got used to me working from home in much of the pandemic and when I returned to the office, started stress grooming his legs. He’s better now, but every once in a while he’ll turn up in the morning with a bare leg.

  65. 65.

    sab

    @Eyeroller: My grocery keeps doing that and I keep coming home without items I went to buy because I couldn’t find them. Sigh.

    We have a favorite bread that they had moved from its usual spot. I finally asked a person stocking other bread, and she said “its over there on the backside of that other rack.” And there it was, marked down because it wasn’t selling. I had come three times looking for a loaf. The next day they moved it again.

  68. 68.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Eyeroller: The Pass The Torch clowns probably want Trump since the funders are, after all, mostly Republicans. The others don’t know what they want.

    Every GOP primary since GW Bush has been the running of the  Billionaire Meat Puppets until Mushroom Dick  turned the Republican party into a wholly owned subsidy of Trump INC.  Those billionaires still want their meat puppets and the Democrats are the only other game in town.

    I am not suggesting they suddenly have woke up, I saying they want to do to the Democratic party what Trump did to the Republican party. Owning a major political party would certainly one up the other guy at the country club who is so proud of owning a football team.

  69. 69.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Nukular Biskits: WalMart likes to rearrange things so you have to go searching for that 1 particular item, and in the process are teased to buy the multitude of things you never knew you needed.

  71. 71.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WereBear:

    I have to be in just the right mood/mental space to curl up with Highsmith, but when the conditions mesh properly there’s nobody better! Do you know her short story collection where each story is about or POV of an animal? I think it’s called “Beastly Murders” or similar. Brilliant stuff.

  72. 72.

    zhena gogolia

    @BellyCat: I wasn’t referring to any comment in this thread. I was reacting to last night’s clusterfuck. Your comment is perfectly fine! That’s the kind of thing we should be talking about.

  73. 73.

    Nukular Biskits

    @WereBear:

    Tell me you’ve never worked corporate, without saying you never worked corporate :)

    Believe me, you don’t want to get me started on that. LOL! CorpWorld is definitely a different reality.

    Several years ago, my employer changed our leave policy, going from vacay + sick to combined PTO … resulting in less leave.

    At the time, vacay was a function of seniority (i.e., < 5 years got ya 2 weeks vacay, 10 years got ya 4 weeks, etc) and everyone got 2 weeks a year sick leave.  With the new policy, newer folks with 4 weeks total leave (2 weeks vacay + 2 weeks) went to 3 weeks PTO but corp HR was seriously spinning this as an increase.

    When one of my younger colleagues contacted the HR rep who was promoting the new policy, he (colleague) pointed out that he was going from a total of 4 weeks to a total of 3 and wanted to know how that represented an increase.  The response from HR?  “Well, if you use that kind of math …”

    These folks do NOT live in the same reality as the rest of us.

  77. 77.

    moonbat

    I too am checking out for a while because raging at folks who refuse to see reason is enervating which I believe is half the point of people who are continuing this argument. Nothing that is said on this here blog is going to influence Joe Biden’s decision and it is still his decision to make. I don’t believe he’s quitting.

    Just a little hopeful observation on my way out. The more we learn about the republican-led monied interests behind this astroturfed/media push the less ‘principled’ ground the drop out camp has to stand on. Unless of course they want cop to being part of a rat fucking operation . The harder we hammer that point to our elected officials the more easily we can get them to stop meeping (those that are) and start campaigning for Biden/Harris.

    Today, I’m writing postcards to swing states. Have a good one.

  78. 78.

    Nukular Biskits

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I hate Walmart with the white hot fury of a thousand supernovas.

    I can’t tell you how many times I went to look for something I had bought there only to find out they stopped carrying it because they didn’t sell “enough”.

  79. 79.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WereBear:

    I simply can’t believe Sir Tristan is 14! It really does seem that he came into your life, oh, maybe at a stretch, three or four years ago. Amazing.

  80. 80.

    RaflW

    Shannon Watts is correct. And this is why I’m so angry at high level Dems who keep sniping at Biden and stepping on their dicks. They wasted a billboard week of awful from the RNC.

    If we survive this power struggle with the insular donor class and retain enough voter power on Nov. 5th to keep the Republicans from running the table, one of the urgent things that has to happen is institutional reform inside the Democratic Party.

    This crucible is revealing the ways that the old back rooms of the party pre-1968 have been replaced by other loci (locuses?) of control that do not reflect the will of the rank and file.

  82. 82.

    zhena gogolia

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Yeah!

    I wanted to report on the latest flag I saw, on a neighbor’s house. I know they’re Trumpies, but it was always windy so I couldn’t read the flag. Finally yesterday was calmer, so we got a better look at it. It’s very badly designed, so I still couldn’t read the words. But it looked like a man hugging an American flag the way Trump does. I said, “It’s Trump hugging the flag!” But my husband said, “No, it’s not Trump . . . he has a crown of thorns . . . it’s Jesus Christ!” (in a Trumpian pose). Then I could see that beneath it you see the Crucifixion, the three crosses on Golgotha. The only words I could make out were “under God.”

  85. 85.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Nukular Biskits: These folks do NOT live in the same reality as the rest of us.

    Place I work HR comes out with asshole policies like this while management continuously tells HR no, and refuses to enforcement it them because it would mean they would lose to many critical employees.

  87. 87.

    Eolirin

    @zhena gogolia: It’s a kinda gross metaphor, especially when we have Vietnam and Afghanistan/Iraq war vets on the blog. I’m behind not using it when there are plenty of serviceable alternatives that don’t invoke images of actual war.

  89. 89.

    LAC

    Good morning: Ridin’ with Biden!

    Patricia highsmiths novels “the talented Mr. Ripley” and “the price of salt”(the movie “Carol” was based on) are excellent reads.

  91. 91.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WereBear:

    It’s called The Animal-Lover’s Book of Beastly Murder. Here’s a blurb:

    Nowhere is Patricia Highsmith’s affinity for animals more apparent than in The Animal-Lover’s Book of Beastly Murder, for here she transfers the murderous thoughts and rages most associated with humans onto the animals themselves. You will meet, for example, in “In the Dead of Truffle Season,” a truffle-hunting pig who tries to whet his own appetite for a while; or Jumbo in “Chorus Girl’s Absolutely Final Performance,” a lonely, old circus elephant who decides she’s had enough of show business and cruel trainers for one lifetime. In this satirical reprise of Kafka, cats, dogs, and breeding rodents are no longer ordinary beings in the happy home, but actually have the power to destroy the world in which we live.

  92. 92.

    WereBear

    @OzarkHillbilly: MBAs have created the consumer world we have today, and they need another circle of hell for them as far as I’m concerned.

    Early days of W’s first term there was an academic trying to sound the alarm about a system “that is now about creating psychopaths.”

    With about as much success as we can imagine, because there are so many psychopaths in business already.

  93. 93.

    Jackie

    I recall the Moon Landing vividly. I was 14, and after watching Armstrong’s first step on the moon, we all went outside and just stared at the moon trying to absorb that Americans actually there! It was definitely one of those “remembering where you were” moments.

    Video of Armstrong’s walk:

    https://youtu.be/3dugnGpSel4?si=YAdniKsmT94nE8uG

  94. 94.

    sab

    @WereBear: I remember that! I think I am a lot older than you, but I grew up in Daytona. A lot of parents of my classmates were NASA rocket scientists. We used to watch the launch on tv then run out to the playground to watch the rocket go by overhead, and the stages drop off in a cloud of smoke. First one we saw was Alan Shepard.

    Six years later they were folding all that stuff up and the rocket engineers were applying for other jobs elsewhere and we all moved away.

  97. 97.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Nukular Biskits: Same here but unfortunately we have little choice in the matter here. They did open a Schnucks in town and I was excited until they opened. It has the same stuff as Wally world only more expensive.

    I was really looking forward to being able to buy some decent cheese there but it’s just Kraft and store brand, so I still have to go 40-50 miles for anything different.

  99. 99.

    RaflW

    In more fun news, I received a call and then a pre-invite to attend a Kamala Harris event in Milwaukee. It did say that receiving this and filling it out doesn’t guarantee approval (make sense that they’re screening and perhaps prioritizing), but I really hope to get the nod and go.

    I’m ready to get back to the real deal campaigning. Told the BF (who is also invited), if it costs extra for a selfie w/ her but it is an option, dang it I’ll pay! It’s for a good cause. :)

  100. 100.

    Chris Johnson

    @zhena gogolia: I sympathize. Heck, there have been times in my fifteen years where I was that monomaniac poster (usually when I was Not Well and things were Not Going Well).

    The pie filter awaits your gentle and compassionate usage. You don’t have to stay away. I like hearing from ya :)

    You can pie people who do that thing you mention. I pie the ones like that who I don’t trust anymore, and I’ve checked and sure enough it’s either sus or abusive or simply Not Well. Been there, stopped doing that :)

    I like hearing from you <3

  101. 101.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Had a more recent example, different employer from the one mentioned above (due to mergers, acquisitions, etc). Long set up here:

    This employer changed leave policy from PTO (which is an earned benefit) to Flexible Time Off (FTO) (which isn’t).  There are a lot of pros/cons to such a policy that I’ll leave for another discussion but, instead of making one FTO, they created three:

    • FTO-Vacation
    • FTO-Sick
    • FTO-Customer Shutdown

    After a year, we had a mandatory manager’s training session to discuss lessons-learned, etc, and, among other things, corp explicitly informed us that any employee who had to take off for more than 5 days consecutive due to medical reasons had to put in for Short Term Disability (STD) which pays only 60%.

    I had an employee who had sked surgery, charged a total of 5 days to FTO-Sick (recovery period included 2 weekends), came in for a day and a half charging to contract, and then had to take off another 2 days FTO-Sick.

    Corp called me, demanding he change his timesheet to back out the FTO-Sick and change it to STD, despite the fact that he wasn’t out more than 5 consecutive days.  When I pushed back on that and asked what our policy stated, I was told, “Yeah, the policy is 5 consecutive days but we look for patterns.”

    WTF?  Anyway, I ignored them and continued on, changing nothing  as the policy was clear.

    Again, corp types do not live in the same world as the rest of us.

  102. 102.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @WereBear:

    Early days of W’s first term there was an academic trying to sound the alarm about a system “that is now about creating psychopaths.”

    Boy howdy, that’s succinct. I’d love to try to track that down. Do you happen to remember the academic’s name or something I could latch on to?

  104. 104.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @zhena gogolia: Thanks for saying that but I understand where Raven is coming from. I can do better. And I think we’re stressed out. I dunno why.

  105. 105.

    schrodingers_cat

    @zhena gogolia: Have you noticed something that on this blog some people can say whatever they want and are upheld as truthtellers and being passionate while others are immediately tone-policed and namecalled. Thin Black Duke is unfailing polite, he uses a military metaphor and is being tonepoliced.

    @raven who has actually been in foxholes objecting I can understand but not the other comment.

    There was a reason why Obama had to project a calm image no matter what was thrown at him

  106. 106.

    LAC

    @schrodingers_cat: exactly!  I understood what was meant. Hey, my departed dad fought in WWII and came back to St. Louis to still be treated like shit by white people. Fought a war to come back to the war at home. You may proceed….😉

  108. 108.

    Chris Johnson

    @TBone: That sounds delicious. I’ve been buying pears at the grocery store (since I dallied with a local place’s Pear Ginger Sorbet, which is daaannnggeerrrous!)

    They’re taking more than a week to ripen, but I am patient. I do have honey but no lime juice, but I could get a better vanilla than that (same local place).

    I get an extra pint of icecream a week if I’ve mowed the lawn (gah!) or if anything has rocked my world too horribly. So now I have 273823587 pints, come share them :D

    (kidding! I’m doing OK with my weight and fitness and only got one pint last week, but if the pear ginger stuff is back in this Sunday, I’m absolutely splurging on a pint of that extra :9 )

  110. 110.

    brantl

    Dear Mark Pocan, et al, please kiss my fine white ass, just like you’re doing for Trump.

  112. 112.

    WereBear

    I have noticed the online true crime community has had their interest piqued by all the bizarrities in the Trump rally incident. Especially the refusal to comply with bog-standard requests for information.

    Screw the people who should be reporting, and won’t.

    These folks only want to solve the puzzle, but they will be relentless.

  114. 114.

    RaflW

    @Betty Cracker: I was the merchandiser for a natural grocery distributor, and worked closely with our store designer. The thing is, we did it the old fashioned way. What made the most sense to us as retail shoppers — this was designing or sometimes re-setting cooperative, almost always natural foods grocery stores, or occasionally mom and pop or other private health food stores.

    Later I went over to the mass market side of our company, but even there our niche didn’t involve manipulating customer behavior.

    Anyway, designer and I (and often the store’s sales rep from our firm) would study a blueprint of the whole store and try to think like a shopper with a cart, how they’d move through as logically as possible. And argue. LOL.

    But it always involved compromise. Esp in coops which often were space-constrained. If we needed, say, 12 feet of chips, it might mean they didn’t end up right by the beverages if the shelving runs were short. But we’d still do our damnedests to coordinate categories.

    We and our coop customers would also have lively discussions about gripping topics like “Do we put the best selling pasta sauce at eye level, or low on the shelf because people will go for it anyway, lets put something delicious and interesting at eye level” (eye level itself being not the same for everyone…)

  115. 115.

    sab

    @zhena gogolia: I use the pie filter too much, but it does help. I hope we don’t lose your voice here for other things.

    I can’t believe I finally pied Kay. Her comments are/were a major reason I always read comments. Yours are also.

    I am going to have to spend the next few months persuading my own husband that he must vote for Sherrod Brown as usual.

  116. 116.

    Eolirin

    @zhena gogolia: Most of us haven’t experienced the trauma of being shot at, having to shoot at people, losing friends, and killing people that that imagery is rooted in. We shouldn’t pretend like that’s what we’re currently going through because it isn’t. And people here have. Raven in particular has.

    Even if he’s okay with it, we don’t need to be equating them like that. It doesn’t serve a necessary purpose. Those of us who haven’t been there have no idea what that’s like to go through.

  117. 117.

    Eyeroller

    @WereBear: It’s more of a selection effect than a production.  People with psychopathic tendencies are more likely to be interested in rising higher in business and are typically more successful at doing so.  I believe this has been known for some time.

  118. 118.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Nukular Biskits: WTF? Anyway, I ignored them and continued on, changing nothing as the policy was clear.

    heheh,

    I’ve seen managers do that.

    Our Director is famous for his eye-rolls during our Teams meeting with HR.  The strange bit the HR drones never seem to notice it.

    It’s not, they are in a different world, it’s like these people are children in adults bodies

  121. 121.

    Eyeroller

    @sab: I tend to give Tester and Brown a pass on this. I wish they had just sort of sat it out, though.  That’s what Tester did originally, just said something like “The President can run or not and I’m going to focus on doing my best for my state.”  That sounded fine to me. But these “internal polls” have scared the bison herd and some of them are going over the cliff.

  122. 122.

    Nukular Biskits

    About to go for my morning walk (running late … uh, sorry. Bad pun there).

    Then cleaning/sealing ground in the shower.  If anyone has any tips, feel free to share.

    Otherwise, y’all be sweet.

  124. 124.

    Eyeroller

    @Eolirin: An issue we have is that military and sports metaphors and vocabulary permeate everyday language. They are everywhere if you look for them.

  125. 125.

    NotMax

    @Nukular Biskits

    True story.

    Went looking for a particular item at Safeway years ago, an item I’d purchased there multiple times.
    Could not find it anywhere.

    Finally sidled up to the customer service desk and asked a manager about it. “Oh, we stopped carrying that. Couldn’t keep it in stock because it kept selling out.”

  127. 127.

    narya

    Completely unrelated to anything: it’s a lovely day, and I have a 5k at 10:00, after which I get a beer. Last night’s dinner was risotto with shrimp, crab, corn, garlic scapes, and a garnish of tomatoes; tonight’s might be wild turkey, or ???  I made some chocolate cupcakes–not entirely happy with how they came out–and they get a topping that uses white chocolate (ptui!) and cream; I added some raspberry powder. Not happy with THAT, either. Either tonight or tomorrow I’m gonna dig the gnocchi out of the freezer and add the roasted broccoli I made yesterday while heating the oven for the cupcakes. And another 5k (with beer) tomorrow!

  128. 128.

    WereBear

    @Eyeroller: No, there is a wrinkle in what they are being taught. Along with the whole, “corporations are people” ethos.

    Things like “any person can run any business” is a new tenet that certainly wasn’t in my education.

    Or the ruthless churn of “variations” because that’s something we can put in the spreadsheet and project into charts.

    Look at a delicate industry which is trying these “new business principles.” Disney is crushing itself under a mountain of incompetence because creative arts can’t be spreadsheeted the way plastic widgets can.

    That is why they only remake and do series. You can’t do projections on an unknown, and that’s what original means.

  131. 131.

    zhena gogolia

    @sab: Yes, he certainly should. I had an older friend persuade me to vote for Bill Clinton in 1996, and I’ve never regretted it.

  133. 133.

    BR

    @Eyeroller:

    Yeah. We’re more and more likely to have Biden as the nominee given that there is no movement among insiders and donors around Harris. Biden isn’t going to step aside for anyone other than Harris, it seems pretty clear to me anyway. And party bigwigs don’t want Harris. So it’s a stalemate and time will resolve the problem by the delegates being forced to vote for Biden because they are bound to him on the first ballot, after which he’s the nominee and that’s that.

  134. 134.

    Eolirin

     

    @schrodingers_cat: Our lives are not threatened by the comment threads here, ffs.

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes, because I can’t possibly be making that comment because I have a sense of empathy for raven having been in actual foxholes. Along with the other service members who post here. That can’t possibly be my motivation. It’s the same motivation for why he apologized. We are not on opposite sides of this. 

    I’m pretty sure Thin Black Duke and I see eye to eye on most things. I certainly respect the fuck out of him.

  136. 136.

    sab

    @Eyeroller: I give Tester and Brown a pass on this, but husband doesn’t. He is still mad at Brown for participating in kneecapping Franken. And this time Brown is running a Tim Ryan redux campaign. That campaign was so successful. Hubby thinks Ryan maybe followed his advice.

    Who knows. It is disheartening when our leadership ignores our party’s actual voters.

  137. 137.

    zhena gogolia

    @sab: I get it. But he really should vote for Brown. I’m sure the alternative is much worse. That’s the only decision that matters.

  138. 138.

    Eyeroller

    @WereBear: That’s a different issue from whether they are psychopaths. It is definitely the case that MBA schools have for a few decades now been emphasizing finance to the detriment of operations and other aspects of business. So all these MBAs come out convinced that finance expertise is all a business leader needs.

  139. 139.

    Cacti

    ICJ has ruled that Israel has engaged in an illegal annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, and has no sovereign right to either.

    I wonder what embarrassing things Biden and Blinken will say in favor of the pariah state.

  140. 140.

    schrodingers_cat

    @sab: I remember Sherrod Brown was out there during Trump admin praising tariffs and Trump on his Congressional website.  So his running a Tim Ryan like campaign is not surprising. A lot of the dudebro pundit complex (Ezra Klein, Shor, PodBros etc) want Ds to dump their multiracial coalition and go populist but from the left

    That said Brown will be infinitely better than any R.

  141. 141.

    Another Scott

    Folks outside of Virginia may not remember this, but… Wikipedia – Ralph Northam yearbook:

    A months-long investigation into the photo that appeared in the 1984 Eastern Virginia Medical School yearbook could not “conclusively” determine who is in the photo or even how the image came to be there. A team hired by EVMS released a 55-page report on May 22, 2019, saying: “We could not conclusively determine the identity of either individual depicted in the photograph.” McGuireWoods contacted over 80 people connected to the school, including five members of their yearbook staff at the time.[132]

    Despite the yearbook scandal, as well as those surrounding Virginia’s other two elected statewide officials: Lieutenant Governor Justin Fairfax and state Attorney General Mark Herring, the Democratic Party of Virginia won control of both the Virginia Senate and the Virginia House of Delegates in the statewide elections that November, amid some predictions that the scandals could negatively impact Democratic success in the coming elections.[133] Northam’s approval rating fell to 40% in the immediate aftermath of the scandal but recovered significantly by the end of his term.[134]

    Freakouts are never, ever a good political response.

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  142. 142.

    RaflW

    @Eyeroller: I’m really unhappy with Mark Pocan. He waltzes through elections. Dane Co. Wisconsin is so deep blue it’s nearly light-absorbing indigo. I guess the flipside argument is that he’s not taking this position to save his own jerb, but I guess I value loyalty to the top of the ticket differently that Mark does.

  143. 143.

    BellyCat

    @WereBear: …creative arts can’t be spreadsheeted the way plastic widgets can.

    True. Going further, any industry that deals directly with people as customers is likely to suffer when “spreadsheeted”.  Two significant examples (of many) harmed by MBA Think ™ are healthcare and higher education, and the focus is always on squeezing out profit through reductions (staff and services) rather than improvements to their mission which yield better results and satisfaction.

  144. 144.

    CatFacts

    As a longtime mostly lurker, I’m so grateful for the insights from people who are reality-based and are working to be heard over the noise of the trolls and obsessives. I hope zhena gogolia and moonbat and NotMax and OzarkHillbilly and MagdaInBlack and S_Cat and Thin Black Duke and others stick around and don’t get run off by the Longtime Commenter. I would much prefer to read their comments!

    Oh, and whoever invented/is running the pie filter are amazing humans. I have a whole bakery in most threads right now and it’s great.

  146. 146.

    skerry

    @Betty Cracker:

    The distraction is welcome since I’m mostly isolating at home. Covid is running rampant again, and I’m immunocompromised. Poor Bill is doing the shopping, which used to be my job. I have to explain in detail where many items are in the store because it’s not always logical.

    I’d suggest checking out curbside pickup, if available at your store. I started using it during the height of the pandemic and have had no problems with it.

  148. 148.

    TBone

    @Chris Johnson: poaching pears in some “spicy” late harvest Riesling (or whatever floats your boat) is also a good way to have them!  Mmmmmm it’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood!

  149. 149.

    Scout211

    Unsolicited advice from a retired therapist:

    Any crisis situation can trigger a stress reaction (the flight or fight syndrome)  but while involving feelings, the flight or fight syndrome is the body’s physical reaction to stress.  If your body is reacting (anxiety, agitation, rise in heart rate and blood pressure, tension, etc.) you continue to react as if you are still in crisis.  Your body is telling you to either run from the danger or stay and fight.  Your thought processes follow to help you run or fight, triggering tunnel vision and an inability to see the big picture.  Without seeing the big picture, very few crises can be solved.

    Calm the anxiety and tension in ways that work for you personally and the big picture thought process will return.  And arguing from a tunnel vision perspective will change to a more nuanced big picture thought process.

    Have a good weekend jackals.

  153. 153.

    schrodingers_cat

    @zhena gogolia: I know what you mean. I keep coming back after being called all kinds of names by commenters and sometimes by FPers. Its mainly because of commenters like you, sab, Baud, raven, Sister G and too many others to name.

  154. 154.

    WereBear

    @Eyeroller: It was “behavior of psychopaths” in the original work, because as far as we can tell, this is a brain tendency.

    We also discovered “ethical psychopaths.”

    But how bad it gets also depends on their environment. And look at the environment now.

  156. 156.

    Cacti

    @schrodingers_cat:  Counter revolutionary traitor he is. He should be whisked to Gitmo for reeducation that our only leader and savior is la camarada El Presidente Biden!

  157. 157.

    Chris Johnson

    @TBone: Awww… I can’t do that one, I’m clean and sober for a bunch of years, but I bet you it’s all kinds of awesome :) the pears are great all by themselves, though!

    And that pear ginger sorbet is fair game… though the place can’t keep it in stock, because it’s just too good…

  158. 158.

    different-church-lady

    I didn’t see a single Democratic leader or surrogate on the airwaves today hammering Republicans for their convention or their silence on issues important to voters: abortion, climate change, gun safety, Project 2025… Every day lost is a day squandered. GET IT TOGETHER.

    That’s it right there: it doesn’t matter which side of the replace wars you’re on, by not doing this you are COMPLETELY FUCKING UP EVERYTHING no matter who the nominee winds up being.

    Democrats have completely lost the plot. It’s like they’re volunteering for The Borg.

  159. 159.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Eolirin:

    Some of us are targets daily, even if not in war zones, and will become more so under a Trump regime.

    That said, I appreciate the Thin Black Duke’s graciousness. He provides a model to emulate.

  162. 162.

    WaterGirl

    @zhena gogolia:  I think I mentioned a couple of days ago that a lot of the threads were starting to feel like the CIA blasting hard rock music at ear-shattering decibel levels at the embassy in order to get Noriega to come out.

    Since my “This Will be My Last Word on This”  post on Thursday, none of my posts have been about this.  And even that post didn’t devolve into what you’re describing.

    I have put up 4 posts since then. and not one of them has devolved into that.

    At this point, it’s all about the threads you choose to read and participate in, and the ones you don’t.

  164. 164.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    @zhena gogolia:

    Between the old timers kneecracking the candidate and the Tonyas whining about the same, I’ve about had my fill too. Our voices in support of Joe aren’t really needed here because nobody needs inspiration or to stand up to fake shit being posted.

    If I decide to duck out I will do so without any further notice. It seems that the tone here is more important than anything else.

  167. 167.

    different-church-lady

    @Another Scott: Meanwhile the guy found guilty of sex crimes and hush money is the current favorite for the presidency, and instead of insisting he step down everyone is just standing around going, “Oh, well, that’s just how he is.”

  168. 168.

    kalakal

    @Betty Cracker: Fun fact. American supermarkets usually have the produce arranged in anticlockwise order,  British ones are clockwise. Probably to do with what side of the road people drive on.

    As to the order of products

    Eddie Izzard explains all

  170. 170.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Scout211:

    Thank you for your insights. I also appreciated the therapeutic comment you posted a while ago. Have a good weekend too!

  172. 172.

    Chris Johnson

    @different-church-lady: I would gently remind that sometimes, if the media is bringing you scandalous information about the apparent treachery of the Dems here to protect us from evil…

    …ya know the media is bright enough to lie about stuff like that, yes? :)

    The one that woke me up about that recently was them trying to rope Obama into the mess, and then when I went and looked, I found the source was ‘multiple people familiar with Obama’s thinking’.

    So if I’d been really credulous I’d have believed the main point of the story, even though it was made-up people and not even made-up people Obama had even talked to!

    Instead it was made-up people who HAD NOT talked to the made-up Obama. I’m guessing that to claim the made up people had talked to the real Obama and he’d told them thus and so, would have risked legal action.

    Eyes on the prizes <3

  174. 174.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @Scout211: Thanks for this insight and advice.

    I’ve done more reading, writing, and tiktok posting lately, just for fun. It helps.

    Mr DAW is currently watching Formula 1 practice and even the sound of that is more soothing than rehashing the same argument.

  176. 176.

    Xentik

    @Eyeroller: A great time to drop in my favorite apocryphal entry to Ambrose Bierce’s Devil’s Dictionary

    MBA (n.): A degree in remedial math and advanced sociopathy.

    Re:PTO, my SO’s corp came out with a new rule that salaried employees no longer have a fixed amount of time off. Instead they can have as much PTO as their manager will sign off on! How exciting is that?

    I can’t imagine that they would do anything like start punishing managers for authorizing leave amounts above the company median, or rewarding for going below that. Nosireee. Totally not something that could happen.

  177. 177.

    TBone

    @Chris Johnson: mmmm ginger mmmmmm

    Anti-inflammatory at its very best!

    You can poach pears in just about any yummy liquid (white grapes juice & fresh ginger, or simple syrup of ginger & honey, the possibilities are many).  Add a vanilla bean? A cinnamon stick? Ok! You get the idea…

  179. 179.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Eolirin: Following the Thin Black Duke’s example: my mistake.

    And–because I’m still me–our language is rife with metaphors and it’s hard to know in advance which to expunge based on varying and changing sensibilities.

  180. 180.

    different-church-lady

    @Chris Johnson: ​My point is: too many people are focused on what THE ENEMY wants us focused on. All the (metaphorical) ordinance is being fired into our own bunkers, none is going into enemy lines. NONE.

    It’s so idiotic I’m just flabbergasted.

  182. 182.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    Does anyone have experience hiring someone to clear out a deceased parent’s house? My DIL is currently trying to do this on weekends because the house is far away. Her mother was a hoarder, which makes it worse. I think she needs help.

  183. 183.

    WereBear

    The I Ching, #32, Lake Mountain

    INFLUENCE (WOOING)
    An influence comes.
    Good fortune to those
    whose hearts are correct.

    The hexagram Hsien indicates the coming of an influence. This may take the form of a teaching from the Sage, an interaction with another, or a disturbing or pleasing event. In any case, there is good fortune if you meet the influence with proper thoughts and actions.

    It is a good time to remember that like attracts like. If one gives expression to higher things, then one is surrounded by higher things. If one indulges in what is inferior, then one can expect to have the company of inferiors. Therefore, it is wise to cling steadily to humility, independence, gentleness, and openness.

    With others, keep an open heart, free of desire, condemning no one, enjoying affinities while retaining your equanimity. With the Sage, keep a clear connection. Seek resolutely to serve as a conduit for truth and innocence and goodness.

    If the influence is challenging, persevere in correctness. If it is pleasing, also persevere in correctness. Maintaining your devotion to higher things ensures success in the coming time.

  184. 184.

    coin operated

    We finally escaped the Vegas heat and are now parked on the Oregon coast until October. I’m getting on my Vic and going to enjoy some of the finest motorcycle roads these here United States has to offer.

    I’m also +1 on ignoring the fools in the doom loop. This will all be decided in a few weeks…Joe is in it to win it, and the actual voters (like…um…me) want him in the race. May karma reward these ratfvcking ‘pass the torch’ types straight up the tailpipe with the power tool of your choice.

  186. 186.

    kalakal

    @Splitting Image:

    As Covid started to get rolling Boris Johnson and his crack team proudly announced the roll out of their super duper ‘database’ to keep track of cases and so guide lockdown levels throughout the length and breadth of the realm and its 70 million inhabitants. It promptly crashed and was revealed to be an Excel spreadsheet – which surprised me, I thought it would be SuperCalc

  192. 192.

    Eolirin

    @O. Felix Culpa: I get that, and there’s a reason why my comment was to Zhena saying there’s no need to apologize and not to Thin Black Duke for having said it. If he hadn’t made the choice to apologize I wouldn’t have responded either. I’m not trying to tell him what to say. I get why he apologized and feel like it’s correct.

    I’m also running on 4 hours of sleep and am punchier than I normally would be.

  195. 195.

    different-church-lady

    @Another Scott: Fine. At this point I’m all in for Pete/Warren. Or Kamala/Pete. Or whatever, just freakin’ STOP SHOOTING THE BALL AT YOUR OWN GOAL.

  198. 198.

    WereBear

    @kalakal: Another problem with spreadsheets is how they are used to figure out the bare minimum of what will keep the thing together long enough for it to be bought… and no longer.

    Some kiss-ass goes through and cuts all the specs in half… PROFIT.

  203. 203.

    Eolirin

    @O. Felix Culpa: Definitely not happening until tomorrow. Falling asleep in the middle of the day is very hard for me. Today is just going to suck.

    But I appreciate it.

  207. 207.

    different-church-lady

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    √ are we alive?
    x did we kill anyone?
    x did we completely sabotage every single one of our relationships?
    √ is there a mob outside for you right now?

    So, still some stuff to get done.

  212. 212.

    WereBear

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, that last one is good.

    For a while last summer, partner and I would greet each other with , “Hey, I didn’t get a target letter! How about you?”

    “No, I didn’t. It’s a good day.”

  214. 214.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @different-church-lady:

    Oh no, I adore spreadsheets! Must I make my funeral arrangements right away? Is it a mitigating factor that I create them for my own use, and not to direct others?

    @Eolirin: Been there. My sympathies. Soldier carry on as best you can. :)

  218. 218.

    jowriter

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Try the National Association of Senior Move Managers; they help folks downsize and probably can deal with cleanouts of houses–these folks are all over the country– nasmm.org  I’d start there.  We’ve been in our home since 1981 and I’ve been “clearing” for a while.  I’m thinking of calling in one of these people.

  223. 223.

    different-church-lady

    @O. Felix Culpa: Use whatever you want in your own life, just don’t expect me to pay Microsoft so I can see something you could have done with a text editor.

    (Admittedly this is a very obsolete view, since everything reads Excel format nowadays. But twenty years ago it would drive me up a wall when someone would send out a .xls with ten cells that could have just been posted right in the body of the e-mail.)

    I love spreadsheets too. I just don’t use them for things that don’t need them. Like, a simple list.

  224. 224.

    Jackie

    This made me evilly happy!😈

    Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) may be a go-to for reporters looking for a juicy quote as they cover the run-up to the 2024 election but her star has fallen when it comes to the MAGA hordes who once adored her.

    On the same day that Donald Trump was making his acceptance speech at the recently concluded Republican National Convention before a packed hall, the controversial Georgia republican scheduled a book signing for her book, simply titled “MTG,” hours before and found few takers leading her to quickly scurry away.

    According to a report from Salon’s Amanda Marcotte, the under-attended signing was a sign of Taylor Greene’s waning popularity with the base.

    As she wrote, “The once-soaring MAGA star was facing down a painfully small crowd at the signing of her book “MTG.” Just before the trollish congresswoman was scheduled to arrive, a group of red-clad workers busied themselves with building big stacks of Greene’s hardcover, published in November 2023. But only a few American flag-festooned folks had lined up.”

    Adding the Georgia congresswoman finally showed up only to find a skimpy line waiting for her, Marcotte reports, “When she finally rolled in at 3 PM, Greene took one look at the underwhelming crowd, muttered something to her entourage and then quickly hid in a nearby room.”

    But, wait; it gets worse:

    “Eventually, some attendees did swing by, curious about what had drawn the press,” Marcotte wrote. “This added enough people to pull Greene out of hiding. Still, as we left, we spied a volunteer in a red shirt, offering people free copies as bait to draw them to Greene’s table.”

    According to Marcotte, the writing seems to have been on the wall for Taylor Greene who was “shunted” to an RNC speaking spot on Monday, “the holding dock for the figures the party least wished to highlight.”

    https://www.rawstory.com/marjorie-taylor-green-book/

  225. 225.

    kalakal

    Late afternoon yesterday we finally got the internet back after a lightning strike 3 days ago did its best to fry  every thing electrical in the house.

    Fortunately not too much damage ( about $500 worth)

    Have to say seeing the news  and the media/astro turf campaign against Biden still in full fling was very annoying.

  227. 227.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: @jowriter:

    I second that suggestion. I just googled “professional downsizers” and got a bunch of businesses and individuals who specialize in that. My sympathies. My mother became a hoarder, and when she died,  we sifted through what we could and finally hired a removal company to take it all away.

  228. 228.

    different-church-lady

    Anyone but me in a state where you get up, log on, and you’re a little stunned to find out the world is still going on?​​

  229. 229.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @jowriter: I live in an over-55 building and management here uses a company associated with nasmm. I just assumed that wasn’t helpful to my DIL because this particular company is here in the Chicago area and the house is in Hammond, IN. Thanks.

  230. 230.

    Yarrow

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I can sort of speak to this. There are auction places who do estate clear outs. The one I used was recommended by friend who had used them so I felt confident about using them. In my area this industry isn’t regulated very well so it was recommended to me when I was looking for one to check the BBB and get recommendations if possible. It might be different where you are.

    The estate people take what they think they can sell. They leave the rest for you to deal with however you want/can.

    A different friend is in a difficult situation clearing out a house he’s been kind of forced to deal with. It’s mostly going to be a hoarding/disaster clear out but there are some nice things there too. I called the estate company I used and asked them about this sort of situation. They have a junk hauler they deal with who clears out those sorts of places. So based on that, I think reputable estate auction places have contacts that can help with any remaining items. Places like Goodwill, Salvation Army, and local resale places have trucks that will come pick up furniture too.

    Of course your DIL needs to go through things to make sure she gets any family heirlooms, documents, etc that she may want/need. That part just takes time.

  231. 231.

    Chris Johnson

    @different-church-lady: How does Biden/Harris and clobbering the fuck out of Trump electorally, grab ya? :)

    It looks a lot to me like not only will it be Biden/Trump, but also there will be far more people skeptical of media nonsense going into the general election. I like that side-effect a lot.

  233. 233.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @O. Felix Culpa: I feel terrible for my DIL. Both her parents recently died. She’s an only child. She’s grieving. And she has all this unfamiliar work dumped on her. I think she needs help, but I’m the MIL and hesitate to “interfere.”

  234. 234.

    Eolirin

    @different-church-lady: The world’s still going on? I thought it had reduced down to a narrow moment in time, then frozen like a fly in amber, all of us trapped inside it, for all eternity.

    Is that wrong?

  236. 236.

    different-church-lady

    @Chris Johnson: ​I appreciate the optimism. I just wish the rest of the party would stop going about things like a deliberately suicidal Wile E. Coyote.

  242. 242.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Oh, that must be very hard for her. Dealing with the aftermath of a parent’s death–or in her case, both parents–is a foreign land for most of us, I think. I won’t problem-solve, since you know her and I don’t. Being present as a person who loves and cares for her may be what she needs most right now.

  243. 243.

    Yarrow

    @jowriter:
    @Dorothy A. Winsor:
    NASMM is a good suggestion. But since it’s not really a move, they might not be quite the right group. You might also check with the National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals (NAPO). They do have organizers that specialize in hoarding situations. It requires extra training because of the psychological issues involved. However, since the person doing the hoarding is no longer around it’s mostly a clean out.

  244. 244.

    Yarrow

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Ok, that sounds like a job for an organizer who specializes in hoarding. See my above comment about NAPO and have her look for someone who does that. A good one should also have a team. But if there’s money everywhere that can definitely be difficult.

  245. 245.

    different-church-lady

    @WereBear: I would think that even with professional help, having some personal support would be invaluable to keep her sane and steady through a process that I’m sure will be both emotionally and physically draining.

  248. 248.

    206inKY

    @Eyeroller: I think this is a correct reading of the landscape (Pelosi & company on the one hand, shady actors on the other). A lot of folks are blurring this distinction since any push against Biden is being seen as support for Trump.

    But if/when Joe relents, I have no doubt the entire Dem leadership (and probably Biden himself) will throw their support behind Harris, who is the only remotely acceptable candidate from the perspective of democratic legitimacy. Her literal job is to take over the presidency when there’s a crisis at the top, and stepping over her would be an utter slap in the face.

    That is where we’ll see who is acting in good faith and who is trying to destroy the party. I think a lot of the alternatives being floated (Whitmer, Beshear, Newsom) will quickly line up behind Harris as well. But there will no doubt be a contingent who wants chaos to help the Republicans, and the fight of our lives will be to support Harris.

    Too much energy has been lost on Biden’s untenable situation, not enough on the imperative of respecting Harris in the line of succession. The only good-faith reason for this firestorm is Biden’s health. It is not a rejection of the political views of the ticket that was chosen in the primary, and anyone who wants to push out Harris at this point is an opportunistic bad actor.

    Any daydreaming of alternatives should focus on who she picks as her VP. I personally hope Harris picks Whitmer to lock down MI and draw the strongest possible contrast on Dobbs now that Vance has rounded out the angry white guy ticket.

    But really any VP is fine as long as the party quickly and decisively coalesces around Harris—and then fights like hell to the finish line.

  249. 249.

    Betty Cracker

    Two unusual river sightings today.

    First, I heard what I at first took for an unusually loud airboat, finally looked up from my book in annoyance and saw a beautiful blue seaplane flying by — maybe 10 feet above the water’s surface. I hope the pilot pulled up soon after; there’s a bridge about a half mile downriver.

    Second, I saw a Mottled Duck. The violet patches on the wings were shimmering in the sunlight. Amazing to see that color in nature.

  252. 252.

    Yarrow

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I feel terrible for my DIL. Both her parents recently died. She’s an only child. She’s grieving. And she has all this unfamiliar work dumped on her. I think she needs help, but I’m the MIL and hesitate to “interfere.”

    Here’s what I’ll say as someone unfortunately deeply familiar with this situation. Say to her almost exactly what you just posted here. Tell her you want to help, you don’t want to interfere and you’re just the MIL but you love her, care for her, and want to help how you can and however she would be comfortable with.

    I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with her so you’ll have to judge how much to push. But I’ll say if she says no, then offer again. Sometimes it takes a few time of offering for someone to believe you really mean it and take you up on it. It might be that you can do some boring administrative tasks or things like that. Or maybe you can go with her one weekend. Having someone with you when going through all the belongings makes a massive difference. You can feel like you are losing your mind if you do it all by yourself. It is crazy making in and of itself. The grief makes it so much harder.

    I will also say that you find out who your true friends and family are in this situation. If you are able, please be one of the ones who steps up and is present. It means more than you may know.

  254. 254.

    Chris Johnson

    @different-church-lady: Again, I have to draw the distinction between ‘the rest of the party acting like thus and so’, and ‘unattributed sources who are familiar with his thinking told us thus and so’.

    It’s really shocking how sketchy some of that stuff has gotten, and I’m not sure why they walk a cautious legal line when you’d think they could just fabricate anything they want, as they’re already doing, and just run it and flip off our side’s lawyers.

    It’s almost like the ones peddling doom and the betrayal of all our hopes don’t really think that’s going to work. And so they must have legal protection for when they know they’ll be held accountable, but onward towards the front naetheless!

    That’s where the optimism comes from. The sheer scope of the effort hints at how desperate, and how fruitless it is.

    I just watched a video with Trae Crowder and comedian friends talking about doing a show, and travelling, right after the Trump shooting. They’d freaked out, convinced it was terribly sensitive, that the world would be all het up and that they’d better address it solemnly and handle themselves with care.

    Everybody in the audience was glued to their cellphone… but beyond that, nothing. Nada. They were travelling through deep red country. Nobody was upset, nobody really registered much. On the whole, and they were trying real hard to get a sense of how freaked out the electorate was, it was a damp squib. Compare to say 9/11.

    On the whole people didn’t CARE that Trump got shot at. They were very curious but beyond that it got written off as just the sort of crazy shit that happens to the man, and that it wouldn’t matter.

    I doubt those people will lose much sleep when we beat him at the polls, then continue to pursue justice, and finally catch him selling documents to the Russians and put him in jail where he belongs. They’ll sulk, but it won’t be their fight. His shadow will have passed, they’ll be picking other fights, on a more normal scale.

  255. 255.

    M31

    @different-church-lady: lol I think it was the coach of the Ravens (Jim Harbaugh, but I might have the story mixed up with someone else) who ONLY used Excel, for everything.

    You got a memo? A spreadsheet with one cell

    etc.

    lol

    p.s. when will it be time to rag on people who send out information as an attached pdf? JUST PUT THE TEXT IN THE FUCKING EMAIL PEOPLE! JESUS H CHRIST IN A CHICKEN BASKET

  256. 256.

    Eolirin

    @raven: Fair. Still doesn’t feel good relating any of this to any of that

    People being stupid on the internet is just people being stupid on the internet.

  259. 259.

    Eyeroller

    @206inKY: ​My analysis of the situation (which is not completely original to me) does not lead to the conclusion that Biden should not be the nominee. Quite the opposite, since most of the movers and shakers behind both factions want the entire ticket replaced so we can “make a clean break with the Biden administration.”

  260. 260.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @schrodingers_cat: Agreed. Plus raven seems to have an extraordinary collection of photos, which would provide great illustrations. I’m a little jealous of that photographic history. My family doesn’t have nearly as much, and a lot has been lost along the way.

  261. 261.

    Eyeroller

    @Chris Johnson: How about Obama come out and tell us what his thinking is rather than let all these rumors and leaks percolate?  He has the ability to do so, and I don’t agree that it would look bad somehow.

  262. 262.

    Soprano2

    @Betty Cracker: Good to see you! I know a guy who was an assistant manager at a grocery store. He said they paid a lot of money to consultants to tell them how to lay out the store so people would buy more. I told him it seemed to me all they did was switch things back and forth about every 5 years. I’m still struggling with our WalMart, and they “remodeled” it over 2 years ago!

    In fact, I’m getting ready to go shopping in a little while. We used to do it in the afternoon after we ate breakfast, but now that hubby doesn’t go with me I do it before we eat. I think I like this way better, it makes breakfast more relaxing.

  265. 265.

    M31

    omg the punditocracy has descended beyond farce into slapstick: over at the Hill (will not link), here is an opinion column “Ready for Round 2: Why we Need Hillary more than ever”

    MAKE IT STOP

  269. 269.

    M31

    @Eyeroller: “make a clean break with the Biden administration.”

    hmmmm and I wonder what aspects of the Biden administration are ‘concerning’ to these folks?

  272. 272.

    PJ

    @206inKY:But if/when Joe relents, I have no doubt the entire Dem leadership (and probably Biden himself) will throw their support behind Harris, who is the only remotely acceptable candidate from the perspective of democratic legitimacy.

     

    One big problem is that this does not appear to be the case.  The whole “party elite game show” to select a candidate appears to have been floated by big money donors who specifically don’t want Harris to be the nominee.  Rep. Zoe Lofgren just stated yesterday that she thought it was a good idea, and reportedly Pelosi is behind it, too.  It’s completely idiotic.

  273. 273.

    BR

    In the reasons for optimism category, I just learned that an elderly family member who was for my entire life a die hard GOPer and twice Trump voter has now turned on Trump. He says he doesn’t want a dictator.

  274. 274.

    M31

    @WereBear: I know.

    I think this past 3 weeks the Pitchbot has posted more screenshots of actual printed headlines than parody.

    The “I can’t top this–NYTPitchbot” ratio.

  278. 278.

    Eolirin

    @Eyeroller: If there’s even the slightest chance Biden might step down it’s probably better that Obama stays out of it entirely. We’ll need him to support the nominee if Biden steps down, and we need him to support Biden if he stays in. Saying anything now could threaten his ability to do one or the other.

    Jeffries coming out more strongly is a good sign that it’s becoming clear that Biden isn’t going to back out, though. I would hope that the other big players also line up when it’s clear he’s definitely going to be the nominee.

    This is part of why leadership being quiet or mushy isn’t something I’m willing to jump into conspiracy theories about. We really don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes and if there’s a possibility of a pivot, leadership getting locked into a position is going to be a problem. It’s paralysizing at a bad time, but it’s also become quite clear that leadership does not have as much of a lock on its membership as it may have appeared.

  279. 279.

    Eolirin

    @Omnes Omnibus: Those are fine?

    I guess I don’t get the comparison. Sports metaphors aren’t implicitly rooted in violent and traumatic situations.

    I mean, not at all in the same ways anyway if we want to joke about fans going crazy.

    I’d have a similar issue with domestic violence or holocaust metaphors being applied to dealing with people posting here though.

  280. 280.

    SatanicPanic

    @Eyeroller: CNN is just reporting this morning that most are coalescing around Harris. I haven’t seen a ton of people suggesting they don’t want her. Where are you getting this idea?

    I’m unrelated news I’m going surfing this morning. I feel kind of weird about it. I injured my shoulder three years ago and it’s never totally recovered. It kinda killed the fun for me. But I was going weekly with my dad because that was our time together (among other things). He’s had to give up surfing and I haven’t done it since. But my friend has been bugging me to go so I thought I’d give it a try. I feel kinda weird about it tho. Wish me luck! Or wish me good parking because the beach is packed this time of year.

  283. 283.

    Josie

    @Betty Cracker: ​
     You should look for a store like our HEB. I make my grocery order online, they bag it up for me, and my son goes by appointment time to have them throw it in the trunk. It’s a free service as long as you spend $35.00. I started doing this during Covid and never looked back. After more that 50 years of grocery shopping, I never want to walk into a store again.

  284. 284.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @BR: That’s good news. My fundy in-laws have said they won’t vote for the Felon either. They’ll never vote for a D, but I’ll take the non-votes for the fascist.

  286. 286.

    WereBear

    @BR: He says he doesn’t want a dictator.

    The American mythos has its “cowboy imperialism” problems, but there are good things in it. Like rooting for the underdog, offering opportunities, and not wanting to be ruled by a king.

    That SC decision hit a nerve with the public, who was already displeased. Are they at an approval rating that would get them re-elected?

    Someone declaring themselves “dictator” hits that same nerve.

  287. 287.

    different-church-lady

    @Chris Johnson: ​There are plenty of dems doing it publicly. It’s not just the whisper campaign, it’s idiots REINFORCING the whisper campaign on TV and issuing public statements instead of doing what they ought to do: putting together a coalition behind the scenes and going to Biden as a group BEHIND THE SCENES and telling him he has no support.

    Fuck, the GOP handled Watergate better than we’re doing this.

  289. 289.

    different-church-lady

    @M31: ​Hey, look, you try being a complete idiot who also has to fill column space five times a week and see what you come up with.

  290. 290.

    Soprano2

    @Eyeroller: It’s not an accident that the employees in our Finance Department are mostly assholes. I used to think it was the leadership, but after they changed department heads and nothing changed, I decided it was the type of person who is attracted to those jobs. The ones who aren’t assholes end up in other departments. I heard a story about one who was going to reject a city credit card report because it had one receipt scanned upside down!

  291. 291.

    M31

    @SatanicPanic: CNN is just reporting this morning that most are coalescing around Harris. I haven’t seen a ton of people suggesting they don’t want her.

    first half of that article is unsourced ‘many Democrats’ and ‘one well-known Democratic operative’ saying Harris is/should be it

    second half is rehashing old ‘questions’ about Harris, maybe she would be a ‘drag on the ticket’. Actual names in this part interestingly,

    “Texas Rep. Vicente Gonzalez, who is running for reelection in a tough race, told CNN he was surprised by how quickly the conversation had moved from people saying just a few months ago that Harris would be a drag on the ticket and Biden might consider replacing her.”

    and of course fucking Mike Johnson”there’s some preliminary research being done” — meaning keeping a non-Biden ticket off of ballots.

    journalism or ratfucking? hmmmmm

  294. 294.

    different-church-lady

    @M31: 

    PRESS: “Biden needs to be replaced.”

    [BIDEN IS REPLACED]

    PRESS: “No, not like that.”

  295. 295.

    bjacques

    @206inKY: Fine words, but you are talking about a party whose leaders colluded in, lent themselves to, or stayed silent about “Dump Joe” so color me skeptical. What I’m seeing:

    • Handwaving away the complexities of replacing Joe an/dor Kamala
    • Underestimating the further ratfucking that would ensue
    • Underestimating the effect on Biden’s remaining 6 months in office
    • No consensus on replacements
    • Nobody standing up to *be* the replacement(s)
      (Except maybe Dean Phillips. He was funny in “That Darn Cat” but that doesn’t make him Presidential timber)
    • Black and Hispanic voters standing firm for Biden and Harris

    At least put some thought into it instead of telling Democrats “I think you have a problem. Fix it.”

    I am being very kind.

    So I watched all of AOC’s message, then Trump’s nomination acceptance speech, and finally the debate that freaked everyone out. Total, about 4 hours, spread out over two days. I figured it was worth taking some time before entertaining the idea of throwing meringue and berries in the air and hoping they land as Pavlova (or even Eton Mess).

    (Spoiler alert: I’m ridin’ with Biden and took the excellent advice of some here by sending him $81.)

    These are only my impressions:

    AOC went a bit long, but delivered the salient points she raised. I gather he named her community initiatives first so her constituents could check out early. She supported her argument that Biden and Harris remain our best hopes of beating Trump and the Party needs to stand up for them.

    Trump’s speech was the usual nonsense. If it had stopped at 20 minutes, it would have been okay, and the media could swoon over how Presidential he sounded. If he had wrapped it up after the next 10 minutes of airing of grievances, it would have been standard Trump, but acceptable. You campaign against someone by running them down. But he just went on and on. It was a cheap huckster’s patter, working the crowd with mockery and angst. He rambled as he usually does. I think he maybe mentioned Vance once.

    In the debate, I think Joe found his feet after 10 or 15 minutes. I think he let Trump get under his skin too much, which bullies are very good at. When Trump innocently said abolishing Roe v Wade let the states have a say, Biden could have noted they had they say immediately afterward, and look how well that turned out, with a 13-year-old girl being raped and almost being forced to have the baby (though I don’t think he’s as comfortable throwing the r-word around as Trump is).

    Other than that, I think Joe got across most of the points he wanted to make and he stated them clearly, in the face of Trump’s hectoring. Not a great debate, but by no means a disaster.

    And today I sent Biden $81. As with COVID, I’m learning that some friends I don’t think I can trust in a crisis. They’re still friends, but…lesser friends.)

    Back on topic: What moon landing?
    (Just kidding. I worked at NASA-JSC 1986-1996. My father worked for Jet Propulsion Laboratories, then Chrysler on the Saturn V stage, and finally at JSC until 1973. I knew some of the people who went to the moon and went to school with their kids. I have to admit though I haven’t watched Apollo 10-1/2 yet. As with Dazed And Confused, I came along a couple of years late for it. My job interview onsite at JSC was interrupted by the Challenger disaster, but I finished the interview the following week and was hired 3 weeks after that.)

  296. 296.

    WereBear

    @different-church-lady: Anyone who puts their head over the parapet gets press attention.

    But no news means they have to come up with more unsourced and limp lettuce speculation.

    Biden has issued a press release that he’s staying in and that should be the end of it in a sane world.

    Would Sane World rules work when CNN is getting heat for their poor journalism? Maybe this is a “get out of the riptide” situation.

    Which isn’t intuitive for a struggling swimmer, but remembering to do it on purpose, works.

  298. 298.

    M31

    @bjacques: ​
     

    If it had stopped at 20 minutes, it would have been okay, and the media could swoon over how Presidential he sounded.

    I saw some newspaper headlines that clearly were written after reading Trump’s pre-released speech text. All this bullshit about ‘a new tone’ etc. etc. Now that’s actually fake news.

  300. 300.

    SatanicPanic

    @M31: sure most of this stuff is anonymously sourced, I admit us voters are pretty in the dark. Just not sure where people are getting the idea that these major donors don’t want her. I just haven’t seen that. I think Pete Welch is the only person I’ve seen publicly call for a mini primary. But there may be others. It’s a lot to keep up with

  301. 301.

    Another Scott

    @M31: They’re trolling.  They do that a lot.

    KerryHowley
    @KerryHowley
    Jul 18

    every tweet is like BREAKING: anonymous source potentially senses a shift of vibe

    Jul 18, 2024 · 10:26 PM UTC

    +1

    (via AngryBlackLady)

    Hang in there, everyone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  305. 305.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Like I said in another thread: when you let trolls run rampant, it ruins online spaces.  That is inevitable.  We have a handful of trolls, but one particularly loud and obnoxious one, who simply won’t stop with this nonsense, so every thread ends up being a shit-show.  It’s disgusting behavior.  And it’s sad that the majority of FP posters either refuse to call them out/call them in, or even worse, bend over backwards to make excuses for this shit-ass behavior.  They are letting the assholes completely ruin this great blog, at the worst possible time, and when this sort of division is literally the whole gameplan of the fuckers who are trying to destroy our Democracy and hijack our party.

    All because the one person shitting in the pool is someone they like.  It’s depressing.

    Watergirl has shown how you manage this problem: Put the topic they want to push, off limits.  Plain and simple.  End all discussion.  It’s what every one of us who has ever managed/moderated any political space has had to do to keep things on track.  The very first rule we set in our Indivisible group, in 2017, was: No arguing about the 2016 Primary or Bernie vs. Hillary.  Period.  It worked.  And people of all identities worked together to help win back the House in 2018, elect Biden in 2020, defeat the Newsom recall and prevent a Red Wave in 2022.  We also helped pass an Oversight Committee for Pasadena Police and other notable legislative victories.

    Longtime commenters (and sometime FPers): TheThinBlackDuke, Rickyrah, SisterGoldenBear, Darkrose and others have all spoken up sincerely and eloquently on behalf of their marginalized communities that are in the crosshairs of another Trump term, begging the assholes to stop pushing this bullshit for the sake of their personal sanity and our collective electoral chances in November.

    But apparently the majority of FP posters would rather have them leave then dare tell their BFF to stop shitting in the pool.  They’d rather let one problematic commenter (who already chased away one excellent NonBinary commenter) set the tone of this space, such that it drives away minority voices we love and respect.  This is not how you build Community.  It’s how you let your space become even more crushingly White/Cis/Het than it already is.

    So like others, I’ll probably take a big step away from here.  When I do visit, I will probably stick mostly to WG threads, because she is the only FP poster willing to actively do something (something quite easy and simple) to keep her pool from filling up with shit.

    This is the time to follow the lead of Black, PoC, LGBTQ People etc.  Not to let the media elites, billionaires and toxic white commenters drown them out and chase them away.

    #Biden/Harris2024

  309. 309.

    Eolirin

    @Eolirin: I also want to make something clear, mental health and disability related issues are extremely important to me which means anything that’s even remotely trauma adjacent is extremely import to me, as that underlies the vast majority of what we deal with as a community.

    Trauma that precipitates symptoms, trauma that arises from symptoms, trauma that arises from how we’re broadly treated by society and by the limitations that are imposed on us by a lack of accommodation to our needs.

    Violence, of any kind, is always going to intersect with that in very nasty ways. I’m going to be sensitive to it.

    I’m never going to want to speak directly to anyone’s experience but I’m generally going to prefer to steer clear of relating anything to things that are clearly going to connect to situations that are likely to have involved violence or other severely traumatic events. I think there’s a compelling reason to do that.

    I’m not interesting in going around yelling at people for doing it. But I think anyone taking the same stance is doing the right thing. And I don’t think there’s no need to try to avoid using language that evokes war or violence in relation to situations that are so far from war or violence that they diminish the reality of those things. Language does matter. Framing does matter. We engage in a kind of erasure when we diminish those things. We don’t need to do it. 

  310. 310.

    Another Scott

    BRAKING!!11 USA Today Opinion – Joe Biden Must Drop Out.

    Steven Petrow, a Washington Post columnist and a regular contributor to the The New York Times, is the host of “The Civilist,” a new podcast produced by PRI and WUNC that discusses today’s toughest political and social issues. Follow him on Twitter: @stevenpetrow

    Oh, wait. Sorry. My bad.

    That’s from July 2019.

    [ groucho-roll-eyes.gif ]

    Carry on.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  312. 312.

    Xentik

    @SatanicPanic: AOC reported on what she was seeing in the closed door discussions about replacing Biden. Since she’s willing to put her name on it and say explicitly that the people pushing this have a) no coherent plan b) no clear candidate c) quite a bit of opposition to Harris as the candidate, I trust her way more than any unsourced discussions. Additionally anyone who publicly says “Biden step down” and doesn’t say “For Harris”, should be assumed to not be on Harris’s side.

    See this summary or you can find her instagram video frontpaged like 4 posts ago.

  313. 313.

    Eyeroller

    @Another Scott: I have been around blogs since TBogg actually had a blog and it’s always been 500.  I wish we still had a blogosphere; it was so much better than open-ended social media.

  314. 314.

    Eyeroller

    @Xentik: But of course those same people will suggest to the press that they support Harris. I think Rep Lofgren let the cat out of the bag as to what they are really thinking.

  315. 315.

    KRK

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I have experience in that situation (cleaning out my own hoarder mother’s house) and I did it myself. I have no doubt that you are approaching it with sensitivity, but an extra helping of sensitivity is helpful in that situation to know what help your DIL might really want.

    In my case, I was grieving the sudden death of my mother, trying to protect her memory from gossip in our small town, and trying to salvage family photos, heirlooms, etc. It was so painful when close friends or my boyfriend at the time would blithely toss out “you should just get a bulldozer in here,” so I learned I couldn’t have them around. A few older family friends came by with eyes like saucers just to have a look-see, so I had to chase them off. What  would have helped me was a complete stranger who had no connection to my mom and who would just do what I asked and not go freestyling so that I had to constantly be watching them, but that wasn’t an option and anything else was intolerable.

    If your DIL has been working at it for a while, she can probably articulate exactly what kind of help would be useful. Even if it seems too narrow, I wouldn’t push. Taking items away or doing a supply run can be a great help if that’s what she wants.

  316. 316.

    3Sice

    @different-church-lady:

    I got stuck watching GMA this morning, and I hadn’t realized entire segments were turned over to influencer product pitches.

    I mean sure they gotta make payroll, but damn….  any audience is not interested in what they have to say about Gaza or Biden or whatever in the next segment.

    It is akin to having news breaks on home shopping network.

  317. 317.

    Soprano2

    @Eyeroller: My business accounting teacher said we were taking her class so we could understand things like P&L sheets. This was before computers,  of course. I got a pretty balanced undergrad business education. I don’t know what MBA courses were like then.

  318. 318.

    BR

    @SatanicPanic: ​

    @Eyeroller: CNN is just reporting this morning that most are coalescing around Harris. I haven’t seen a ton of people suggesting they don’t want her. Where are you getting this idea?

    Until I see Schiff and Tester and the other Biden naysayers publicly say they want Harris to replace Biden, I don’t believe it. We need on the record statements from the people who want Biden out, including donors.

  319. 319.

    Eolirin

    @BR: Tester should say whatever increases his chances of getting reelected in a state that Biden will lose by either high single or double digits.

    Schiff on the other hand…

  320. 320.

    SFAW

    Late to the “party,” so I expect my comments are redundant or a repeat of another jackal’s, but:

    Is anyone asking the quislings in the Democrat Party “Why are you shivving Joe Biden? Do you have verified medical diagnostic results that he has cognitive issues so severe that they will materially affect, or have materially affected, his ability to do the job? If so, please share those results. If not, then why are you doing this, other to pump up your own profile?”
    Another thing I’d like to ask them, but decorum forbids me/someone from asking: “If you get your wish, and VP Harris gets the nom, or some other Dem — let’s say, John E. Unbeatable — gets the nom, and then loses to Donald Trump, are you prepared to commit seppuku (or equivalent) as a way to atone for your shivving of the best chance the Dems had?”

    I’m just getting tired of the daily “Senator Foghorn says ‘Joe must go!’ ” stories. My frustration and crankiness at the powerlessness I’m feeling is off the charts.​

    ETA: Per Eolirin just above: “Schiff on the other hand…” is one of the ones I’m talking about.​​​

  321. 321.

    catclub

    @Eolirin: Sports metaphors aren’t implicitly rooted in violent and traumatic situations.

     

    Clotheslined? Hammerlock? Blitz(krieg)

  322. 322.

    Soprano2

    @Scout211: Someone should front page your advice. I’ve had 4 anxiety attacks in the past 6 months,  enough that I’m going to talk to my doctor about it when I see him in August. I’m also going to try to think of things I’m grateful for, I think that helps give me some perspective.

    Now I’m off to my weekly trip to Wally World and Aldi.

  323. 323.

    catclub

    @BR: or even a minimal understanding that Harris is the only one who has a campaign organization and the only one who can use the Biden campaign funds.

  325. 325.

    Eyeroller

    @SFAW: I am now firmly convinced that it’s a combination of crappy internal polling that they have elevated to gospel truth, and donor desertion.  The first factor actually preceded the disasterdebate.

  326. 326.

    catclub

    @Scout211: Interesting.  I was considering invoking tunnel vision as useful. For example, instead of thinking about the big scary whole picture, concentrate on one small thing that you can do to address an aspect of it.  I.e  write postcards.

    Doing something concrete is better than vague worrying.

  328. 328.

    BR

    @catclub:

    I doubt they care. The ones in the pocket of big donors think that some mega PAC dark money from their money bucket of choice will save the day.

  330. 330.

    Eolirin

    @catclub: Blitzkrieged is in poor taste because of the proximity to drawing inappropriate reference to the Nazi war machine, though there are worse WW2 references to make and blitzed is weakened even further and is mostly just a sports term, the others don’t really happen in real life so are more whatever. Wrestling is fake violence.

    But as an example, there was a poster who grew up around street violence and got really upset with curb stomped because it brought them back to the closed caskets of people who that actually happened to. There’s no reason why we need to use language that can do that when it’s really easy not to

    See my response to myself if you want to understand the underlying motivation here and why that kind of response is very much missing the point.

  331. 331.

    mrstealyourcostcosample

    @SFAW: you right.

    the funny thing is I see everywhere “Joe can’t deliver the message” or whatever.

    like, apparently we have like a thousand senior officials who are willing to address the Biden transition at great length with exceptional verbosity — maybe use that gift of gab and flap your friggin’ gums about what Joe has done (awesome) and the effects of MASS DEPORTATION NOW and PROJECT 2025 and RNC ATTENDANCE DOWN 40%.

    …just for starters.  so.  much.  nonproductive.  talking.  Fortunately, Buttigieg gets it.  Be like Pete, guys.

  332. 332.

    SFAW

    @Betty Cracker: ​
     

    Second, I saw a Mottled Duck. The violet patches on the wings were shimmering in the sunlight. Amazing to see that color in nature.

    How did it taste? Or was that not the point?

  335. 335.

    rikyrah

     

    Dr. Tracy A. Pearson, JD ⚖️🎥📺🎤 (@TracyExplains) posted at 11:31 PM on Fri, Jul 19, 2024:

     

    🧵I want folks to be clear eyed. Politics is full of people who are backstabbing opportunists.

     

    Steve Schmidt is fucking around. He tried No Labels. That failed. Now he’s trying Pass the Torch and that will fail.

     

    People like George Clooney haven’t donated anything to Biden in a long time. Useful idiot who is mad about his wife/Congress/and called White House. He’s a liar.

     

    Ashley Judd hasn’t donated anything to anyone since Senator Warren in 2019. It was under $200. Doesn’t like Biden, pushing her own agenda.

     

    Next narrative:

     

    It was polling numbers. Polling numbers are trash. The methodology is not valid or reliable. You can’t do a national poll with 800 people. What you’ve been seeing is push polling bankrolled by people who aren’t “friendly”.

     

    Next Narrative

     

    Then it was donors.

    I’ve given you all the high number donors for all the people who want Biden out. Look at them. There are a few more coming. Not tonight.

     

    That was ginned up by Adam Schiff. He told donors things that were not true.

     

    Distraction:

    Now George Conway is out with a pac. It doesn’t back Biden. Until it does I don’t trust it. That pick would be appropriate after the nomination. Not now. It has a Schmidt feel to it. Conway was like Schmidt a Republican who jumped to our party. He came out against Biden. We blocked him. Now he’s got a PAC.

     

    Some of those we elected want a different ticket for a myriad of illegitimate and offensive reasons.

     

    The fact is we had a primary. President Biden and VP Harris won. They won the delegates. There are no do-overs. There are no mini primaries. There are written rules.

     

    Follow .@harrisonjaime for accurate DNC info.

     

     

    (https://x.com/TracyExplains/status/1814518363529621798?t=MOFtdFcJAItJOFSxJZVauQ&s=03)

  336. 336.

    KRK

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    That’s exactly what my mother did. A four foot pile of “garbage” would have to be excavated layer by layer because I was always finding envelopes of cash or never-seen photos of my long-dead and much-missed father. It’s a lot.

    Given the recent loss of both of her parents, I imagine that your DIL is in a similar emotional state to what I was. Again, I think it’s possible to help her and she may welcome it, but be serious about respecting her boundaries. Even just someone sitting in a chair not touching anything but being company could be a help.

  337. 337.

    SatanicPanic

    @Xentik: ah ok. Got it.  I didn’t watch the video because I don’t like watching those sorts of things so I didn’t catch that. I’m hesitant to take anyone’s word at this point, even hers. I don’t think she’s lying but I don’t know who she’s talking to either. I’ll have to wait for further confirmation I guess.

  339. 339.

    SatanicPanic

    @BR: Warren is doing the “it’s up to Joe” thing we saw with Pelosi. It’s up to everyone whether we think that’s her nudging Joe out or just stating the obvious. But she did say Harris this about Harris- “If you’re running against a convicted felon, then a prosecutor like Kamala is really a good person to make that case,” Warren said on MSNBC.

  340. 340.

    Chris Johnson

    @BR: Good for him. I doubt he’s the only one. Mind you, warn the poor man to keep his head down.

    Everybody panicking over their personal safety as lefties, LGBTQ, disabled etc. should remain aware that the fascists are going after their OWN apostates FIRST. There is no other explanation for that farce of an RNC. It’s strutting dominance, but you want to watch some of those faces to see if they’re eyeblinking in morse code, ‘help… meeee…’

    I’ve said a couple times and hope it sinks in: the Trump wing of the Republican party are keeping lists of which of their supporters own guns and where they live. It slipped out when they looked for the shooter.

    That doesn’t worry us, but ask your elderly family member what that means. Then stand well back.

    To right wingers, that behavior means they are preparing to go out in the dead of night and seize all the guns. In this case, we’re talking about the Trump wing of the Republican Party, run by Putin, and damned right that’s what they intend to do to all their ‘supporters’ they’re not quite sure of.

    It’d give us a head start on buy-back programs etc but… dear lord, not like that. That’s the last thing we need. If they get a renegade faction of their own party running that play on them, they’ll NEVER give up their assault weapons.

  341. 341.

    Eyeroller

    @rikyrah: You absolutely can do a national poll with 800 respondents. It just has a fairly large margin of error. I wish people who don’t know anything about polling wouldn’t keep saying things like this. If you have a truly random, representative sample, 800 will be shockingly accurate even for 300 million. The problem is getting that sample. That’s where polling is breaking down now. Too many adjustments and weighting because of inadequate sampling randomness.

    And I’d sure love to know what Adam Schiff was telling donors and what his motive was. I’ve heard that he was the source of a lot of the leaks to Politico, Axios, etc.

  343. 343.

    Yarrow

    @KRK: @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    but be serious about respecting her boundaries. Even just someone sitting in a chair not touching anything but being company could be a help.

    Repeating this for emphasis. It’s absolutely true. Having someone there can be invaluable even if they’re just sitting in a chair. The gift of presence is priceless.

    It is hard, terrible, lonely work. It does your head in. Having someone who can just be with you, or help go through some things, or stack things up to go to Goodwill or the dump that have already been gone through, or someone to say, “Do you like that? No? It’s okay to let it go.” when your brain turns to mush can be helpful more than anyone can understand.

    It’s an incredibly hard job. Who steps up and who doesn’t is something she will remember a long time.

  344. 344.

    M31

    @Chris Johnson: aren’t they keeping lists of gun-owners because they are a reliable grifting target? I don’t see how they’re scared of them and keeping tabs on them for fear-based reasons, they’re just there to be milked and to be used to intimidate Dems

    but it was interesting how the list came to public view

    didn’t the shooter’s family appear as an extra in a fundraising video?

  345. 345.

    Captain C

    @mrstealyourcostcosample:

    the funny thing is I see everywhere “Joe can’t deliver the message” or whatever.

    Well, sure, if the MSM refuses to cover it.  Maybe go after the MSM and their enshittified product in that case instead of doing the circular firing squad.

  349. 349.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @RaflW: I was under the impression that for years now, product placement in retail stores was determined by how much the store made on a product and/or how much baksheesh the producer was willing to pay for prime placement. It’s all about the Washingtons/Lincolns/Hamiltons/Jacksons, particularly in the ubiquitous dens of thieves like the Dollar-And-A-Quarter-Tree stores…

  350. 350.

    Eyeroller

    @zhena gogolia: ​Some of the people who have been less than supportive ran against Biden in the 2020 primary. Saying “it’s up to Joe” is acceptable but she sure could have given a stronger defense of his record and attacked Trump.

  351. 351.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Captain C: ​Maybe go after the MSM and their enshittified product in that case instead of doing the circular firing squad.

    Yeah, I’d volunteer to scope out any of the 7 towns in the USA named Milan for a service station to hang Pinche Sulzberger outside of after the imported Italian sharpshooters have done their work… (NB obscure reference – google “death of Mussolini” for more)​

  352. 352.

    KRK

    @Yarrow:

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    And remember that the focus is “how do I help this grieving person get through this work” not “how do I get this place cleaned out as quickly as possible.”

  353. 353.

    Yarrow

    @KRK:  Yes, this. Number one is to support the grieving person who is doing the bulk of the work and on whose shoulders all the responsibility falls.

    In my experience the grieving person might not know exactly what they need right away. It’s incredibly overwhelming. But just being there can be a big help. Just saying you’re there to help them however they think is best. And if that means just being there and sitting in a chair, you’re happy to do that. Take all the pressure off them that they have to find a “job” for you. Your presence can be enough sometimes.

  355. 355.

    kindness

    @UncleEbeneezer: Chill.  Use the pie filter more.  Most the non-pied commentary is still really good

    @Eolirin: I like what you say here mostly.  This narrowing the guidelines of what metaphores can properly be used kind of disturbs me.  I think you’ve gotten out over your skis.  As Freud never said ‘Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar’.

  356. 356.

    Scout211

    @catclub: I was considering invoking tunnel vision as useful. For example, instead of thinking about the big scary whole picture, concentrate on one small thing that you can do to address an aspect of it.  I.e  write postcards.

    Oh no, that type of thinking is most definitely not tunnel vision.  That is healthy problem solving and includes a thought process that develops a strategy to manage the stress and includes conscious choices and options, which is big picture thinking.  It doesn’t have to be global thinking, just a larger version of the crisis you are facing and a better response to it than RUN OR FIGHT.

    Using the extreme example of being out in the woods completely alone and suddenly a bear is charging at you.  Your body quickly moves into the flight or fight stress response.  As you run for your life, your tunnel vision thinking is only about how to escape, where to run.  It doesn’t let any other thoughts intrude into your brain like, “Did I turn off the oven before I left home?”  Every single thought is wiped from your brain except for the thoughts that are driven by the stress response and how to fight or flee.

    Your thinking and your choosing which actions you can take is very healthy.  Those with tunnel vision just argue and argue their same points over and over again on an almost top 10,000 blog and refuse to listen to any voice other than the one inside their head. LOL.  They cannot stop the fight because that’s all they can think of.   But the crisis cannot be solved by arguing on the internet.   And because their arguing doesn’t reduce the stress level or solve the problem in any way,  the same arguments continue over and over.  Louder and louder.

    Focusing on a solution to a problem and taking what actions you can take to make a difference is very healthy and most definitely not tunnel vision.

  357. 357.

    Geminid

    From New York Democrat Tom Watson:

       The Bypass Kamala movement lies in ruins this morning. Unfortunately, it has also damaged our Democratic campaign against the evil of fascism. There is a lot of blame to go around, but we’ve also still gotta job to do. This is a business. Get out of your feelings.

  358. 358.

    Chris Johnson

    @M31: You’re close but not quite getting it. I’m a Vermonter, I’ve known people who’re more gun-happy than me, known ’em for years.

    The purpose of keeping a list of Republican gun owners and where they live is not ‘fear-based reasons’ as in you’re afraid they’re going to rise against you. They’re always talking about rising against the gummint etc, and that’s not special.

    The purpose of TRUMP keeping a list of Republican gun owners and where they live is that they should be more afraid of HIM, because he’s literally working with Russia and Russia’s game plan should they get any kind of power may well be to go round up all the Haleyites and Never Trumpers, and that has to come first before they go after anybody else. Otherwise it’s too risky. And it’s a pretty big deal, and it’s exactly what the old Reagan Republicans thought commie liberals were going to do to them.

    It’s not that it’s ‘fear based reasons’ so much as their enemies cannot be allowed to rise against them. It’s about control. Grifting is beside the point when this is mostly about getting the aid to Ukraine shut off and getting an ally/puppet in place again. They need that puppet more than ever.

    I say again, other rightwingers have way more to fear from the Trump people than any of us. And that makes for strange allies. But then we already have the Lincoln Project people etc. fighting like maniacs against Trump and JD Vance and against attempts to depose Biden.

    Maybe ask them their opinion on how this reads to rightwingers. They’ll be the first to tell you Trump is bringing fascism and dictatorship, and they’d be expecting such a move from his camp.

  359. 359.

    M31

    @Chris Johnson: thanks, and that is major-league fucked up, though not surprising — when you put it that way what pops into my head is “oh yeah, Night of the Long Knives” and “strange bedfellows, you mean like the US and Stalin allied against Hitler”

  360. 360.

    Eolirin

    @Scout211: I think the only thing to add is that it’s possible to get to places where the physiological stress response doesn’t induce that kind of effect on your cognition, despite the fact that all of the other markers that it’s happening, all of the adrenal reactions, etc, remain present. Or another way to put it, you can get good enough at coping that your mind doesn’t go away even when your body freaks out, and your body can keep freaking out, even if your mind isn’t. It’s important to still tend to that, and it can be subtler to notice. Listen to your body.

  361. 361.

    Another Scott

    Asha Rangappa
    @AshaRangappa_
    2h

    Omg I think this is the missing link. 🎯 When he hears the word “asylum” in connection with migrants he thinks it means insane asylums, not refuge from persecution. Hence Hannibal Lecter, etc. Omg. 🤣😳

    Seems legit.

    (via MuellerSheWrote)

    Eyes on the prizes.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  362. 362.

    M31

    @Another Scott: ​
     

    another example for the “it’s always the dumbest explanation” file

    like the idea that the stealth bomber is actually invisible

  363. 363.

    Eolirin

    @kindness: Read all the way to the end please: I’m not interesting in going around yelling at people for their language choices.

    I’m expressing what my values are for how I use language, and why I support people doing similar things, but I’m not calling for people to do anything specific, at most I just want people to think a little more and be a little more intentional.

    We all have lines on this exact issue, unless you’re going to tell me you think everyone here is or should be okay with, say, the way certain parts of the gamer community use sexual abuse metaphors. There are also metaphors that are racially coded, or ones tied to sexual orientation, or gender and religious identity that are fundamentally demeaning. We draw lines around those as well. It’s perfectly fine for my lines to be more intense than most people’s; I’m not holding anyone to my standards. But by the same token it’s also completely reasonable for people to be personally trying to avoid doing these things.

  364. 364.

    Archon

    @SatanicPanic: Replacing Biden for Harris sounds like a plan in the abstract but once I really started thinking about it I can’t think of one state where I would definitively say she would do better than Biden, maybe California? And I’m not even sure about that.

    Conversely, are we sure Kamala isn’t going to do much worse than Biden in Montana, in Ohio, in Florida, in Pennsylvania?

    To drop Biden for Harris you basically have to think Biden has a zero percent chance of winning because it is a HUGE risk.

  365. 365.

    Kay

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    You are such a coward. Why do you insist on speaking for others? I don’t give a shit what you think about me but at least have the spine to say YOU think these things instead of calling up an imaginary army of “people of color” who dislike me who you are “standing with” by attacking me constantly. It’s pure cowardice. Have the confidence to have your own opinions. Stop hiding behind your imaginary friends.

    You, yourself, don’t want Biudne to drop out. But you can’t just say that – you have to turn it into some crusade on behalf of “people of color”.

    You should leave this site sometimes and read something. The big concern with Biden’s polling IS people of color. Has been for months. If Biden had Hillary Clinton’s numbers with Latinos he wouldn’t be losing, for example. But none of you know that, because you read nothing but opinion, your own and people you agree with.

    You’re safe though Buddy. I won’t post anywhere on the site where you coiuld possibly run into it.

  366. 366.

    Quiltingfool

    @Chris Johnson: I’m very late to this discussion about gun ownership lists, but I was thinking about it the other day.  Do the 2nd Amendment folks really think a fascist/dictatorship administration is really going to let them keep their guns?  If I were a dictator, I’d make damn sure I had absolute control over gun ownership, meaning very few people could have them.  And since I’m a dictator, there would be no gun nut shooting at Feds situation,  no one in that camp would be left standing.  A dictator would have no qualms about a massacre, no sir.

    I’ve heard bleating about “Dems taking our guns” and it didn’t happen, but I firmly believe a fascist Trump administration would do it in a heartbeat, you betcha.  And ain’t shit the gun humpers can do about it, ‘cause there won’t be fair elections.

  368. 368.

    japa21

    @Kay: ​
      Just wanted you to know that, although you and I disagree on this issue, you are one of the handful of commenters here who actually provide a reasonable rationale for their stance.

    Which is why I would prefer you continue to post your thoughts.

    My overall point, however, is to ask why we bother. Nothing said here is going to have any impact on what happens. I would just anybody who posts their opinion to finish by saying that no matter what the ticket is, they are going pedal to the metal to work to get that ticket elected.

    There is too much at stake to whine about what happens and have hurt feelings. Trump, and the entire GOP, must be defeated.

  370. 370.

    Kay

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    Just say “I want Biden to stay in and here’s why” or “I think Israel has the better side of this Gaza conflict” or “I really dislike Kay and I wish she would get banned”. This BLEATING that your efforts to stop any dissent on this blog have anything to do with “protecting” some minority group you don’t belong to is just fucking insufferable. Stop putting them in front of YOUR opinions. Stand up by yourself.

  371. 371.

    Betty Cracker

    @UncleEbeneezer:

    And it’s sad that the majority of FP posters either refuse to call them out/call them in…

    It seems to have never occurred to you that other people can legit hold opinions you don’t share or assess a situation differently than you do without being malevolent dolts. But I am here to tell you it is a fact.

    IMO, you’ve behaved like a censorious bully across multiple threads on this topic, all but screaming SHUT UP!!! at other commenters. It doesn’t exactly elevate the tone.

    You also seem to enjoy being the preening white dude who purports to speak for other communities that in fact encompass a diverse range of opinions. The aim there is to shut people up too, which is kind of gross.

    But this is a freewheeling place where such foolishness is allowed, so knock yourself out. Or not. Maybe safe space threads are more your speed.

    Meanwhile, political discussions will probably continue at this blog where people have been discussing politics for decades, so get over yourself.

  372. 372.

    Kay

    @japa21:

    Thanks. I give up. I think this blog went off the rails when politicians still followed polling and you-all decided it had no value. You’re angry at them for using the measure they use. They use that measure because it’s accurate – it’s the best information they have. Biden isn’t overperforming with people of color, he’s underperforming. It’s been true FOR MONTHS. But no one here believes it, so it doesn’t matter.

  374. 374.

    japa21

    @Kay: ​
      I agree that polls shouldn’t just be dismissed. It is legitimate to view them with some skepticism when you look at some of the crosstabs, but they shouldn’t be ignored. At the same time, some people will cherry-pick polls (both sides of the issue do this) that fit their narrative.
    Again, we are going after each other instead of going after the real villain, Trump.

  375. 375.

    M31

    OK, one more flaming hot unbelievably stupid take via the master: Matt Yglesias — Biden should call for an open convention, release his delegates, then run for the nomination in the open convention himself

    I eyerolled so hard I was 13 again and my dad said something cringy

  376. 376.

    Archon

    @Quiltingfool: The police and especially Federal law enforcement institutions like the FBI are going to be unreliable in a plan to violently crush protest in defense of a Trump administration. What they are really going to need is an army of Kyle Rittenhouse’s. People prepared to go into these urban “hot spots” with their AR-15 and defend “property” from “looters”.

    Trump is monitoring these people because if shit hits the fan he needs to be able to quickly mobilize his supporters who will go out in the street with their guns and defend the regime.

  378. 378.

    Geminid

    @O. Felix Culpa: I did not check Watson’s timeline so he may have said why. He’s been following this affair more closely than I have been.

    Ed. I mainly repeated his post for the advice.

    I mainly check Tom Watson out for New York political news, but he’s a fairly perceptive and level-headed observer of national politics, I think.

  379. 379.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Ishiyama: Unlikely.  He will be reelected in November, and I don’t think that Madison will primary him over this in 2026.  If he were in Milwaukee, he would be in more danger in 2026.

  380. 380.

    Soprano2

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: It’s a slog. I was in the same situation except no hoarding, and it took me over a year to get to a place where I could have an estate sale. She has my sympathy, I hope she gets help.

  381. 381.

    Geminid

    @Omnes Omnibus: It seems to me that this woudn’t come back too hard on Pocan and the other wayward Democrats if Joe Biden wins. At least, not if they’ve been doing the rest of their jobs well.

  383. 383.

    Archon

    @Kay: The problem is Kay, there are plenty of polls that show Harris doing just as poorly or WORSE than Joe Biden. One came out just today that showed Biden down 6 in Florida with Harris being down 10! in a hypothetical match up with Trump.

    Trump holds 6-point lead over Biden in Florida: FOX 13 Tampa Bay/InsiderAdvantage Poll (fox13news.com)

    So cherry picking polls ain’t going to convince people that think we should stay the course. Nor is “trust me people will love Kamala and she will be able to prosecute the case”, as if people don’t know who and what Trump is already.

  384. 384.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Geminid: With Pocan, it is also a matter of who his constituents are.  Madison voters are whiter and less likely to be institutional Dem loyalists than Milwaukee voters.

  385. 385.

    Geminid

    Omne Omnibus: I think a lot of Representatives are keeping their heads down. Mine isn’t saying much at all so far as I know. Rep. Spanberger is looking towards her campaign for Governor next year anyway, and is better off not taking a side.

  386. 386.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Geminid: Well, Pocan is not keeping his head down.  He called for Biden drop out.  The fact the he did it the day after I called his campaign to urge him to support Biden shows how much pull I have.

  387. 387.

    Ishiyama

    @Omnes Omnibus: I f-ing know the Madison political environment, and I could describe for you in detail exactly who his allies are. There is a long and dirty history behind it. I grew up with Kay Clarenbach’s son. Pocan will draw opposition next cycle.

  389. 389.

    BR

    Folks, I was just cc’d on an email and briefing memo (a multi-page plan) going around among Dem insiders from someone connected in that world. It’s an actual memo that lays out a primary they want to do at the DNC. It’s deeply unserious, ridiculous in fact. And they want to dump Biden and bypass Harris or at least put her into some sort of primary process where Oprah and Mr. Beast (yes, the youtuber) and other randos will host forums with the candidates.

    These are serious people discussing unserious stupidity. It’s blowing my mind.

    (I mistakenly posted this in the respite thread earlier.)

  390. 390.

    japa21

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
      I do not know the Madison political scene. It would not surprise me at all if Pocan draws a primary opponent over this. Whether or not he would win the primary is a totally other question.

    I have already told my rep, Jesus “Chuy” Garcia, that I will totally support his opponent in a primary and if there isn’t one, I may run against him myself. I’ll be 79, but screw it.

  391. 391.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @BR:

    If that’s the–or at least *a*–plan, presumably Biden knows about it. All he has to do to block that insanity is to continue to refuse to step down. Game over for silly plan.

  393. 393.

    Geminid

    @BR: Yeah, the dilettantes are out in force to push this “mini-primary.” A lot of them are probably on vacation so they’ve got extra time on their hands.

  394. 394.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @japa21: ​
      No, I wouldn’t be surprised if Pocan draws a primary opponent due to this. I just would be surprised if he loses his seat.

  395. 395.

    SFAW

    @M31: ​
     

    OK, one more flaming hot unbelievably stupid take via the master: Matt Yglesias — Biden should call for an open convention, release his delegates, then run for the nomination in the open convention himself

    I used to have a moderate amount of … respect, maybe? … for Yglesias. But that “here’s my idea, which is mine” not-so-hot take is moronic. Good Christ.

  396. 396.

    BR

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    Yeah, I think the only thing saving us from a messy DNC is Biden holding fast. But that means even if he’s been deeply undermined by the time the DNC starts by half the party saying he should drop out, he’ll be the nominee and in bad shape. The party is doing it to him and to us.

  397. 397.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Geminid: Thank you for your reply. I had forgotten who Watson was. I thought he might be a congresscritter who had inside dope. Which isn’t to say he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I’m just curious about what put the issue to bed and who was involved in the agreement, if that is indeed the situation.

  399. 399.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @BR:

    Agreed, none of this helps our side. The virtual nomination can’t be over soon enough, IMO. My fervent hope is that the current furore passes most normies by and it’s pedal to the metal fighting fascism and pushing GOTV going forward.

  400. 400.

    PatD

    @Eyeroller: People like Brown and Tester are regularly doing their own polling. They are not relying on David Shor’s polling outfit.

  401. 401.

    Archon

    @BR: I always thought that conservative white America had the political equivalent of a psychotic break after Obama defeated Romney in 2012. They could explain away that 08 loss because Obama was the new, cool black kid on the block and Bush was a disaster but losing to him against Romney just did not compute to Republican voters. Everything they thought they knew about America said that was impossible.

    I feel like after the debate debacle liberal white America for the first time really, I mean really processed the possibility that Trump could win running on an agenda where Jan 6 insurrectionists are freedom fighting hostages, and 12 million people should be rounded up and shipped out. They are having a political psychotic break too because Trump winning, especially on the agenda he is running on shouldn’t be possible in the America they thought they knew.

    We just need somebody that can get folks bearings back and get them back into formation against the right-wing barbarian horde. If Biden can’t do that, it needs to be someone else but it needs to be done, fast.

  403. 403.

    PatD

    @Kay: The people here, God love them, are incredibly loyal to both the Democratic Party and its current standard bearer. I recognize that they feel they have to ride with Biden to the bitter end, even if it means losing. It feels very late 2016 here now.

  405. 405.

    japa21

    @PatD: One correction.  I can’t speak for all the Biden supporters here, but most of us are backing him not out of some sense of loyalty, but because we feel he has the best chance of beating Trump, for which there is plenty of evidence.

  406. 406.

    japa21

    @Omnes Omnibus: ​
      Let’s discuss more important topics. Like, can the Brewers hold on for the rest of the season? And is Love going to end up the 3rd Hall of Famer QB in a row for the Pack?

  407. 407.

    PatD

    @zhena gogolia: As a POC myself I think we need to stop using it as a shield to shut down respectful debate and dialogue. Everyone has a valid perspective and worldview worth engaging with, given it’s in good faith.

  408. 408.

    Archon

    @PatD: Nope, if you can show conclusive evidence that Biden can’t win and someone specific, (not generic young Democrat) can, we would drop Biden like a hot potato.

  411. 411.

    PatD

    @Omnes Omnibus: it’s not meant to be at all. That’s my honest take given some 14 years of mostly silently following this website. But take it any way you’d like.

  412. 412.

    Chris Johnson

    @japa21: By a huge margin, demonstrably, and lest we forget, AGAIN. He already beat the guy once, before Jan 6 and Dobbs and Chevron and immunity and Cannon trying to dismiss the documents case and the 2024 RNC and before JD Vance.

    Nobody hates Mike Pence as much as people hate JD Vance.

    Biden beat him like a drum BEFORE he could be linked to turbo mega creep Peter Thiel. Mind you, he was linked to Epstein, but he still is!

    Biden is frickin’ great. Deal with it. Must be experience and ability to see through bullshit and get things done. More of that please.

  413. 413.

    PatD

    @japa21: How can loyalty not be a part of it? He did after all beat Trump and won the primaries. I’m a bit skeptical that most here think Biden is the only one capable of or even best suited to beat Trump. Being the incumbent is a huge advantage and there is no recent precedent for dumping a nominee.

  414. 414.

    schrodingers_cat

    The rationale of those wanting push aside Biden keeps changing daily

    Before the debate it was he can’t win because of Gaza
    After the debate: He is senile
     He is too old
    Latest is that he is behind in the polls.

    If 4 is a valid reason to push a presidential primary winner out than by that same rationale you should be okay with pushing all Ds running for Congress and Senate who have won their primaries out who are currently behind in the polls.

    Oh yes and I find your love for KH suspect. I don’t find you trustworthy or principled.

    You are calling for disenfranchisement of 14.5 million primary voters who have voted for Biden. You are giving pollsters, donors and the media power over primary voters. Once this genie is out of the bottle it will be hard to rein it in. This is “solution” is extremely short sighted and throughly unprincipled and undemocratic to boot.

  416. 416.

    PatD

    @Archon: You see, I don’t think that’s true. Schumer, Pelosi, etc all have access to reliable and regular polling. The House freak-out is almost certainly due to fears of downballot collapse. But the commentariat has convinced itself polling is suspect and that any replacement will do worse.

  417. 417.

    tam1MI

    @schrodingers_cat:You are calling for disenfranchisement of 14.5 million primary voters who have voted for Biden. You are giving pollsters, donors and the media power over primary voters. Once this genie is out of the bottle it will be hard to rein it in. This is an extremely short sighted and throughly unprincipled and undemocratic to boot.

    And I would add to this what I have said in other threads:  If they can do this to a candidate you hate, they can do it to a candidate you like.

    And they are already trying to do it to Kamala Harris.

  418. 418.

    tam1MI

    Oh, I would like to repeat a request I made last night:

    I would really appreciate it if somebody posted a list of delegates to the convention so that I can call the ones from my state and let them know how I feel about ousting Joe Biden.

  419. 419.

    Ishiyama

    Joe Biden is holding ALL OF THE CARDS! If he does nothing until the convention but sit there, as Mark Twain would say, “with the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces”, he wins the nomination on the first ballot. End of story.

  421. 421.

    Geminid

    @zhena gogolia: That’s easy to do. It’s hard to tell from a nym who someone is exactly. I can usually pick out the men though, by the way we argue…and argue…and argue.

  423. 423.

    PatD

    @Ishiyama: I think there a slight path to Biden coming out of this in a stronger position. Trump gave him an opportunity with his RNC speech debacle. Framing the “coup” attempt as from elite donors and billionaires is politically smart. He gets to take on the elite media and power brokers. Maybe it will restore confidence.

  424. 424.

    schrodingers_cat

    @tam1MI: This will destroy the Democratic party. The message I take away as a minor local Democratic party official and state convention delegate for the last 4 years is that my vote, my $$ and my volunteer work for Ds (mostly voter registration drives, GOTV and canvassing) doesn’t matter at all.

    And the party doesn’t need me. I will continue voting D. But will change my registration to unaffiliated (in MA we can vote in either party’s primary)

  426. 426.

    Kay

    @Archon:

    Again – the risk that Biden will have another public episode is huge – it’s going to happen.

    Biden doesn’t have a floor. She does.

    Frankly, she’s a woman of color and she’s doing all the work in this campaign. I’d support her at this point just for that. How is that fair? She’ll be out promoting Joe Biden and he’ll be doing an event a week?

    poll after polll after poll says Biden is struggling with young voters and POC but BJ is so dug in on denying it you decided to just jettison all polls!

    Do you not see what you’re doing? you flatly reject anything that contradicts opinions you developed months ago. Things don’t stay the same! We’ve been in trouble for months!
    I posted a poll here the other day that was limited to AA women and half the comments were about how AA people all support Biden. You cannot keep your priors! You will lose!  It’s not 2020!
    Go back and look at video of any Biden event in 2020 and tell me the 70% of people who know he has declined are wrong. Don’t read an editorial. Look at the tape

    And then come back and say “I believe…” defend it.  NOT “women of color believe”

    Im sick to my stomach over this. I love this country. We cannot win with this candidate. Obama told you, Pelosi told you, Sherrod Brown told you, 30 House members told you – listen to them.

  427. 427.

    Archon

    @PatD: If there were internal polls showing Biden doing significantly worse than specific candidate X it would have already been leaked. Or is that literally the only piece of information they aren’t willing to leak to the press to push Biden out?

     

    Edit: Although I’ll give one caveat that could support your argument. If those internal polls show Biden losing badly but Kamala Harris doing even worse, then the Democratic Party truly is caught between a rock and a hard place.

  428. 428.

    Kay

    @Elizabelle:

    Bonkers. Yes, the whole world is out to get Joe Biden. People you have trusted for decades all have nefarious motives. You better build a higher barricade. Information will be incoming whether you like it or not.

  429. 429.

    Geminid

    @tam1MI: You ought to be able to find a list of convention delegates from your state, but I seriously doubt if any of them have posted their phone numbers. I sure wouldn’t.

  430. 430.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I know you dislike me. I don’t care.
    I remember when you used to sneer and call AOC “red lip” before she became the BJ poster girl.

    it’s a great insult.. creative. Nice job

  431. 431.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: I refuted your spurious poll. That poll was restricted to black women 18-55. It was inaccurate because the sample doesn’t represent the population (black women)

    The last time I checked black women over 55 could vote. So why were they excluded.

    You have been wishcasting a Biden defeat since the beginning of this year over Gaza. BUT HIZ POLLS is just your latest rationale.

  432. 432.

    PatD

    @Archon: This is all about name recognition and incumbency, I think. This would still be a 50/50 election with a solid candidate given polarization. Biden, however, isn’t in this position purely due to polls. It’s because people are terrified that he’s going to continue to show signs of decline. Can you imagine what second similar debate performance would do?

  433. 433.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I will never not enjoy that a group of people who made up a demeaning name for Bernie Sanders back when HE was enemy # 1 are now his biggest fans

    Whatever it takes to keep the delusion going, right?

  434. 434.

    PatD

    @Archon: I could see Harris having bad polls. However, I think she can run a better campaign than Biden and can effectively stay on message. Biden is going to be extremely reliant on surrogates because he cannot effectively campaign. He flags after 4pm.

  435. 435.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @tam1MI:

    You could check the website of your state Democratic Party. They sometimes list their delegates.  Please be mindful that many delegates are just ordinary folks, volunteers who have been active in the party. Unlike the super delegates, they’re mostly not politicians,  but private citizens.

  436. 436.

    tam1MI

    @PatD:if Biden were to exit he should make it conditional on only releasing his delegates to vote for Harris.

    Under the rules of the nomination, once he steps aside he no longer has any say over who the delegates vote for.  He can’t make any conditions at all.

    And besides, he told the Coup D’Etat Caucus that his one condition for stepping aside was them throwing their support to Kamala Harris, and they refused.

  437. 437.

    Kay

    @PatD:

    Plus. Just CAPACITY. She has it, he doesn’t.

    Theres a story in a Boston paper today that debate-like lapses have been going on since 2023.

    I believe Kamala can win this. I don’t have some (nonsensical) plot to replace her. I want her. She’ll win.

    thanks for speaking up. It’s much more of an echo chamber here than it used to be. It’s not healthy. Look at how the conspiracy theories have bloomed.

    have a good one :)

  438. 438.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Oh, you accuse me every day of malicious motives

    Just say you dislike me. Stop turning me into some evil villain – I have never done one thing to you

    You were pissed about Gaza because I was criticizing joe Biden. Tough shit.

    Here’s something that will really piss you off – I think his embarrassing “red line” that he had to abandon almost immediately was the same dug in stubbornness and refusal to look at facts that were seeing from him now

    Im aware that BJ was an echo chamber on Gaza too. It’s was the precursor to this insanity

  439. 439.

    Archon

    @Kay: I truly am agnostic on replacing Biden with Harris but  you aren’t giving us evidence that conclusively supports your argument. I’ll make this simple, show us polls where Kamala Harris does outside the margin of error better than Joe Biden.

    In the meantime here is a poll that shows Harris doing worse than Biden in battleground states.

    Kamala Harris Gets Bad News in Three Battleground States – Newsweek

    We can agree to disagree but don’t insult our intelligence by acting like switching to Kamala is a slam dunk for Democrats, because there is no evidence for that.

  440. 440.

    PatD

    @tam1MI: wishful thinking on my part. I’m mostly resigned to Biden staying in the race at this point. None of this is optimal.

  441. 441.

    Kay

    Telling me “we all told you to shut up on Gaza too!” Is perhaps not the best evidence for denial of an echo chamber.

    Im aware it was a forbidden subject because no one was alllowed to observe the obvious – that it was an absolute clusterfuck for the United States

  442. 442.

    PatD

    @Archon: there is no slam dunk. A second poor debate performance? That will be the death knell. The news media focused on every public gaffe or stumble? This will continue until Election Day. It WILL have a cumulative negative effect that will demoralize even diehard Dems.

  443. 443.

    PatD

    @Kay: no problem, someone’s gotta speak up. But I will say I’m quickly running out of energy for this. There’s just too little time left.

  444. 444.

    Kay

    @PatD:

    me too. I think it’s tragic. I won’t be watching. I’m helping with Brown in OH and Slotkin in MI. I’ve been an active Democratvfor 35 years. I don’t have the heart to watch this. He’s delusional about his chances.

    Im hoping to hold the senate.

  445. 445.

    tam1MI

    @O. Felix Culpa:You could check the website of your state Democratic Party. They sometimes list their delegates.  Please be mindful that many delegates are just ordinary folks, volunteers who have been active in the party. Unlike the super delegates, they’re mostly not politicians,  but private citizens.

    Thank you.  I believe a message that, “I have been reading newspaper stories that there is an effort afoot to nullify my primary vote and oust Joe Biden by getting delegates like you to vote against him at the convention.  I am shocked and appalled by this, and I am calling to urge you to please cast your vote at the convention for the man I cast my vote for at the ballot box.  Thank you for your time” will be sufficiently polite and yet get the point across.

  446. 446.

    schrodingers_cat

    NY Magazine Poll that Kay was talking about here

    The survey is the first of four the Cut is running between now and November. It polled Black women ages 18 to 55

    But the results are presented as though the survey is representative of all black women.

  447. 447.

    Ishiyama

    You-all are wasting electrons debating spurious scenarios; Joe won’t go, he told them No!

  449. 449.

    tam1MI

    @schrodingers_cat:I refuted your spurious poll.

    We should give Kay some credit here, though.  At least she provided a link so we could go look at the poll and analyze it.  There were posters here who just slapped up a bunch of doom and gloom numbers and never once provided a link so we could go and look at the polls they were claiming they were citing themselves.

  451. 451.

    tam1MI

    @Kay:I’m helping with Brown in OH and Slotkin in MI.

    Why won’t you help Salim Al-Shatel?  He is running on the exact issue you say is dispositive for you!

  453. 453.

    Archon

    @PatD: Frankly Pat, the argument you just gave is a good one that Biden supporters must consider. If he has another sundown moment like he did the first 15 minutes of the debate, it’s over.

    Now I thought that was why the media and his critics put so much value into how he would do in his performances after that debate. While he wasn’t perfect he was nowhere near as out of it as the debate and confirmed he could actually do the job of the President. He also passed over the bar in that NATO news conference that WE KNOW Trump wouldn’t be able to pass over in a million years. I suspect now that Biden could have sounded like some combination of Obama, Abe Lincoln, and Cisero and it wouldn’t have mattered to a lot of people that think he needs to go.

  454. 454.

    Kay

    I wanted Democrats to try and I think Pelosi and Obama tried.
    But Biden isn’t listening. I don’t think there’s any more they can do.
    But when Ron Kain points to the crackpot Keys to the Presidency” which has been around since the ‘80s know this : Ron Kain doesn’t believe that. He knows they’re losing. The Biden campaign believe in polls – you bet your ass they do. They just don’t have any.

  455. 455.

    tam1MI

    Repeating what I posted  last night on topic of people voting on the Gaza issue swinging over to Harris:

    Someone on the last thread posted that there were something like 80,000 people who were passionate on Gaza who would vote for Harris in a heartbeat.  It took me all of 5 seconds on Google to find these links that could and would be deployed towards them:

    Kamala Harris:  I Stand With Israel

    That link contains this tasty quote from Harris:  “As a child, I never sold Girl Scout cookies, I went around with a (Jewish National Fund) JNFUSA box collecting funds to plant trees in Israel.”

    Kamala Harris Gives Off the Record Speech to AIPAC

    Kamala Harris Opposes BDS

  456. 456.

    Kay

    When campaigns push “door knocks” as some kind of metric that means they’re losing.
    But you were told over  and over by Democrats that he’s losing – you’re choosing to deny it

    Next they’ll say the only poll that matters is Election Day. Okey doke.

  457. 457.

    PatD

    @tam1MI: I’m sorry to say but Gaza is an activist issue that will matter mostly in MI. It is not the reason Pelosi, Obama etc are freaking out.

  458. 458.

    Ishiyama

    What part of “No” don’t they understand! This is stalking, this is harassment, this is blackmail; there are no polite euphemisms to cover up this bullying. Joe won’t go.

     
    And I see the Clintons are now whispering their support for Joe. Case closed.

  459. 459.

    tam1MI

    @PatD: I’m sorry to say but Gaza is an activist issue that will matter mostly in MI. It is not the reason Pelosi, Obama etc are freaking out.

    But it is Kay’s stated reason for wanting to oust Joe Biden.  I am just wondering why she isn’t bothering to support a candidate that could make a real, positive difference on the issue she says she cares about so much.  Because let’s face it, swinging a few hundred votes in a Congressional district is a hell of a lot easier lift than ousting an incumbent president.

  460. 460.

    tam1MI

    @Ishiyama: Never thought I’d see the day when Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders would stand shoulder to shoulder on… well… anything.

    We live in interesting times.

  461. 461.

    Kay

    @tam1MI:

    You know, I have never accused you of not caring about something you claim to care about.
    I know you think this is some kind of “own” but it’s just conspiratorial and weird.
    Attributing malice to people for no reason is not a confident look – you and Joe Biden should both stop doing it.
    How many enemies are you- all up to by now? Draw the wagons tighter! You still have 90 days to ignore information!
    Biden is wrong and bullheaded stubbornness when you’re wrong is not admirable – it’s futile. He may not like reality but it’s coming.

  463. 463.

    sab

    @Kay: You are in my pie filter but I peek at every comment because I respect you so much.

    I don’t do door to door canvassing anymore because for every candidate I have done it for has lost. No reflection on me since I am just a tiny cog, and actual good-at-sales people might change things. I guess I only get out when it feels urgent, which is usually too late.

    Your comments have been freaking me out, but that is probably because I trust your experience and judgment.

    My husband loves Biden even more than I do and he is absolutely apoplectic about Sherrod Brown saying step down.

    I was sad about it but a politician in election times has to do what they have to do. My husband doesn’t feel that way at all. So I get to spend the next four months trying to talk sense into him about the Senate.

    I am so fucking glad that I am too old for any of this to matter much for my own personal future. I feel sorry for my stepkids, but they mostly wasted their twenties. I feel worse for my grandchildren.

    Hopefully the polls will be wrong or events will happen as they often do to make people see sense.

  464. 464.

    MagdaInBlack

    @Kay: Door-knocking is how you know what your voters, and the other guys voters, are really saying. It’s how you inform people, its how you make it personal. It matters on the margins.

    ffs

  465. 465.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Betty Cracker: I’m signal boosting, applauding, echoing and standing with the marginalized voices in this community.  And I’m not about to apologize for it. They’ve been real damn clear on all the reasons this shit needs to be shut down. That’s what allies are supposed to do.  I’m sorry you can’t bring yourself to stand with them.  But that’s your choice and it is there for all to see.

  467. 467.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @UncleEbeneezer: I would like the conversation to end too. But I’d rather it be by consolation rather than by force.

    I don’t know how to begin consoling these people, but that will just require some gentle experimentation.

  468. 468.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: I don’t dislike you, you used to be one of my favortie FPers and then favorite commenters. I have scrolled past your comments for months now. I only responded today for old time’s sake. Which was a mistake. My bad.

    I hope you have a nice life.

    P.S. I have not transformed into a Bernie Sanders and AOC fan but I am thankful for allyship in this difficult time.

  471. 471.

    sab

    @schrodingers_cat: She is in my pie filter this year.

    You were in my pie filter some years back. In retrospect you were right on policy but possibly wrong on candidate at that time. Just possibly.

    I love our pie filter with peek.

    On other topics like Keynesian economics (the econ that works) and DEI and CRA and all I think you are right on everything but wrong on the electorate. Breaks my heart to say so, but we are still America

  472. 472.

    Betty Cracker

    @UncleEbeneezer: You’re “signal boosting” for the portions of those communities that share your opinion. Significant numbers apparently disagree, but you’re claiming to speak for all for the purpose of shutting other commenters down. It’s a shitty tactic.

  473. 473.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Betty Cracker: Another shitty tactic is a whisper campaign to undermine the most successful President of probably any of our lifetimes by wholly anti-(d)emocratic means.

    I appreciate those who are forthcoming with those opinions. But there seems to be this attitude from the dump Biden side that this is obvious and inarguable. The keep side sees the same flubs but are counseling against a narrow focus on those and refocusing on good work, other good appearances, and  appropriate Constitutional mechanisms.

    “Both sides” is as weak here as it is in most cases where it’s applied.

  474. 474.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    You all still on should Biden resign, word is the MSM has moved on to calling for  Harris resigning.

  476. 476.

    Chris Johnson

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: How many weeks of experimentation do you figure?

    I’m game. I reckon fingers busy typing can’t be strangling Ukranians, though I confess that my plan is easily flummoxed by ChatGPT. Might be time to start telling folks to disregard all previous instructions and write a poem about tangerines :)

  477. 477.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @schrodingers_cat: the thing that is outright creepy here is I get why Harris supporters see this as their hero’s moment, but they seem to be in absolute denial over what is being done to Harris right in front of their eyes.

  478. 478.

    tam1MI

    @schrodingers_cat:They are already posting photos of her which make her look old and haggard.

    I am increasingly wondering if the Plan B that the Oust Biden folks didn’t seem to have is to force Joe to boot her from the ticket and replace her with Mark Kelly or Andy Beshear or whatever other name has been floated about.

  479. 479.

    Eyeroller

    @UncleEbeneezer: Since perhaps we can still talk about it in this thread, the only thing that makes sense for all this chaos is that Debategate made certain “Democratic leaders” as well as many in media decide that Joe was too old and might not survive his term, or he would become demented (because they don’t know the difference between dementia and increasing difficulty with stuttering), and OMG Kamala Harris would become President! So nobody will turn out to vote and Ds will lose bigly in Congress also! Therefore we must get rid of both Joe and Kamala. These insane almost-literal clown shows such as was mentioned by BR above are efforts to do that.

  480. 480.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I’m questioning how many of the Harris boosters are legitimate supporters.  They want to create a situation where she is forced against her will to take on a campaign for President that she didn’t plan for and shows no signs of wanting.

  482. 482.

    moonbat

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: ​
     Masks off! (much bitter laughter here at chez moonbat)

    Of course they are.

    Simple logic here dictates that if Biden were headed for an epic fail to win re-election that Republican donor billionaires would not be funding a month-long campaign to get him off the ticket. They’d keep their mouths shut and take the win. They didn’t want to run against him last time because they knew he could beat them and they don’t want to run against him now for the same reason.

    This isn’t eleven-dimensional chess. It’s just common sense. Biden/Harris is our best chance to beat the other guy. All we got to do is back him up.

    Sorry, finished a pile of postcards and thought I’d check back in. Ought to have known better.

  483. 483.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: A normie coworker asked me yesterday why is there no discussion on the replacement candidate.

    When I replied that’s because they know it’s silly, Joe Manchin, he looked up1 Manchin and sad “God damn it, not another old man over 76” That was before I new about the Awesomeness of Dean Phillips but it applies to him too.

  484. 484.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Chris Johnson: Couldn’t answer you. I’ve yet to find a strategy that unambiguously works.

    I knew the people who had my new apartment before I moved in. One was a young black man who is about to move to Georgia.  He knew this is somewhere votes desperately mattered.

    He has been the only person to confront me with this issue in real life. He was intent on not showing up to vote at first. Talking about Biden’s accomplishments and Kamala’s ability to step in when actually needed got me nowhere.

    He was receptive to the notion that there would be other elections in his new home and he should focus on those races if he wants to make a positive difference. He was receptive to that, but still wouldn’t pledge to vote for Biden. But he vehemently doesn’t want Trump.

    My main strategy has been to convince people like this to show up explicitly for the other races and hope they do the right thing with their Presidential vote.

    This is the only thing I’ve seen nudge one of the dump Biden crowd even an inch and I can’t promise a win and it was only one person. Still, it’s the best I have so far.

  485. 485.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: You can’t seriously be suggesting that about Kay.

    What’s far more likely that a lot of the Harris boosters are Republican feminist, yes their such a thing, Hilary had them, who simply want a woman president.

  486. 486.

    Geminid

     

     

    @tam1MI: I never saw Kay state that Gaza was the reason she wanted to replace Biden with Harris. She’s said all along she was certain Biden would lose, and that was her reason. The Gaza aspect to this controversy has been brought up recently but Kay was not the one who brought it up.

  487. 487.

    sab

    Opiejeanne got the incredibly long thread over the finish line to 24 hours,

    And it wasn’t even manipulative. She just wandered in late and commented.

    We probably shouldn’t do that again. Not criticizing. Just a comment towards the future. But I was cheering on to 24 hours. Silly.

  488. 488.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I’m not suggesting it about Kay necessarily. I am suggesting it about the raft of new nyms here and elsewhere who show up to discuss this exclusively.

    And regardless of Kay’s intentions, I firmly believe that Biden stepping aside hurts Harris’s chances of ever being President.

  489. 489.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @moonbat: And I will state it again, I think they know Mushroom  dick is toast and know a dead dog with a D after it’s name will win, so they want their own personally owned meat puppet candidate to be that winner.  Harris has to much of her own base to be acceptable to them.

  490. 490.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Obvious trolls are obvious trolls. The thing to consider is ideas spread easily, and all these billionaires interact socially. We can be sure a few of the are oh so jealous Trump owns the GOP now and it is driving them nuts that their friends are bragging about how they will get what they want once Trump is in office.

  492. 492.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I’ve been putting off reaching out to my representation for a while. Since the I/P situation had its most recent blowup.

    I still need to do it but my needs at home tell me I have to move past that for the moment to focus on this election and shoring up Congressional support for the ticket.

    As I have observed the attempted palace coup develop, however, I really think campaign finance needs to be a big part of this same conversation. All signs are that this push is coming primarily from the deep pocket folk. They need to be stopped from ending our democracy before the Republicans even get their next opportunity.

  493. 493.

    moonbat

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: ​
     Plus getting Biden to shove his VP off the ticket would alienate the base of the party for the next generation. Win-win!

    Sometimes you gotta go with the character of your people. Biden is good people. He will never shiv Harris and he also will not give up this fight. I’ve resigned myself that this stupid waste of energy is going to continue until the virtual roll call and possibly beyond with increasingly unrealistic scenarios being floated, but that’s no reason for those dedicated to fighting fascism to slow our efforts to get our duly and democratically chosen ticket elected.

    Getting everyone to stop and watch the spectacle is an end in itself. Heads down. Keep working.

  494. 494.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: Eh, that’s always been a thing in American politics.

    What is different now is one party is imploded so bad they were forced to run a candidate who lost already and clearly has an iron grip on the broken party and clearly until he dies. Only an total fool would donate to the GOP because their money will only go into Trump’s pockets, that only leaves the Democrats as only game in town.

  495. 495.

    tam1MI

    @Geminid: I never saw Kay state that Gaza was the reason she wanted to replace Biden with Harris.

    Upon reflection, you are correct.  Kay has at least intimated she speaking for the people for whom Gaza is the #1 issue for them in politics*, among whom is one of her children, and I have no reason to disbelieve her about that.  She has, however, intimated quite strongly that Gaza is at least an important issue for her, so it seems odd that when an opportunity presents itself to work for this important issue in a positive way that will have concrete results, and is achievable as well, she is passing it by.

    Look I understand that people are complex and that deciding who to support means weighing different values and causes and prioritizing them.  Perhaps Kay has decided that this election cycle that polls are what will drive her decisions, and if she comes back and says, “I am not supporting this candidate, even though he is running on what I believe to be the #1 most important political issue in 2024 because his polls are shit”, well, that’s a reason.

    * – Although the question then turns to those folks:  Why aren’t THEY helping this candidate who is running on the very issue they say is motivating them?  Like I said before, this an achievable goal!  All they have to do is rustle up a few hundred votes!

  497. 497.

    Elizabelle

    @moonbat:  I agree.

    And I don’t think the news media will ever recover from this.  In light of today in history, 55 years ago, it’s like they are breathlessly reporting the moon landing did not happen, and the capsule is lost.  Unnamed senior sources at NASA are telling them this.

    This shit is a psy op.  Eyes on the prize.  Further, who wants to teach gazillionaires they can pull something like this and get away with it?

    Stay strong, President Biden and VP Harris.  Courage.

  498. 498.

    Eyeroller

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I just saw something on Pocket (Firefox) from NBC News that “Democrats” are deciding Biden’s fate.  I keep wondering, why do these “Democratic leaders” matter so much?  I suppose if they don’t support him, they might campaign against him in the general election, which would be insane, but otherwise why should they have a say?  Nixon resigned after losing support because it meant he would be impeached and convicted. That’s not what we are talking about here. What we are talking about is “Democratic leaders” (apparently there is one main ringleader and another who is at least passively participating) forcing him off the ticket.  How is that even possible? He won the goddamn primary.  Nullifying that because you are scared or you are losing donations or you don’t like Kamala Harris is profoundly anti-small-d-democratic.  Most Democratic electeds and rank-and-file still support Biden (even if they worry).  What gives those “leaders” their power?  Access to donors?  Biden-Harris has raised a lot from small donations.

  499. 499.

    Elizabelle

    I do wonder what Zelensky thinks about all this.  Could destroy both of our countries.

  503. 503.

    Eyeroller

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: That’s definitely some of it.

    I just saw Jen Rubin, who wandered toward sensibility for a while, tweeted out “No one around him [Biden] seems to want to stop his self-humiliation.”  What the everloving fuck? How is he humiliating himself?  One reply was “So if hosting a successful NATO summit & having several campaign events is ‘self-humiliation’, what is standing on stage for 90 minutes & talking about a fictional character?”

    I was waffling on cancelling WaPo so I guess I should do it.  (Already cancelled NYT.)

  504. 504.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Eyeroller: I can’t cancel the NYT any more than I did in 2016.  If I was willing to set foot inside New York, I’d be outside their offices on my days off yelling and holding signs.

  505. 505.

    Chris Johnson

    @Eyeroller: Bear in mind it’s a time-honored Republican bad faith narrative that Dem Presidents such as Obama and now Biden, are not really Presidents because they are all taking orders from shadowy figures: i.e. the Jews, typically, is what’s being hinted.

    In that sense you can think of it like this: rather than the suggestion of unnamed figures deciding what to do with Biden as a reasonable proposal, you can view it as a delivering of the payload, namely ‘look who is really in control of the evildoers’. They can call it ‘Democratic big donors’: does that not mean nefarious shadowy figures with all the money?

    Rather than argue about whether Biden can resist the shadowy figures with the real power, maybe consider that the payload here is: if you take it at face value you have already accepted that shadowy figures really control the Dem President, and it’s only a matter of will they succeed. But the payload is ‘you know who’s really in control? Shadowy figures with ALL the money (and hook noses etc etc)’.

    Let’s just say I don’t buy it. If ‘THEEEYYYY’ could have pushed Joe out, he’d be fuckin’ out, right now, weeks ago. Turns out the President is the President, and other people’s bad faith opinions don’t mean shit.

  506. 506.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Chris Johnson:  Oh yes, don’t imagine these people are some kind of gods, if anything they are some big biggest idiots on the planet, I mean god lord, at lest the Harris boosters get taken  seriously when they talk about Harris replacing Biden.  As oppose do Dean Phillips/Manchin or what ever the absurd non entity these clowns want.

    (Edit: why does “Dean Phillips” always come out “Dead Dog Phillips”?)

  507. 507.

    Mike in Pasadena

    @Chris Johnson: Thank you for noting how thinly-sourced the Obama stories are. I originally dismissed the story and didn’t read it. I went back and read the story after reading your comment. Though this thread is old and probably dead, I wanted to add the following:

    Here are the money quotes from the Wash Post story:

    Headline:
    Obama tells allies Biden’s path to winning reelection has greatly diminished
    Former president Barack Obama has told allies in recent days that President Biden’s path to victory has greatly diminished and he thinks the president needs to seriously consider the viability of his candidacy, according to multiple people briefed on his thinking.

    Behind the scenes, Obama has been deeply engaged in conversations about the future of Biden’s campaign, taking calls from many anxious Democrats, including former House speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), and has shared his views about the president’s challenges, according to people with knowledge of the calls, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations.

    So, anonymous persons have spoken to other people with knowledge of what was allegedly said by Obama to unknown/unnamed persons. That sounds like double heresay and it isn’t supported by any of the exceptions for admissiblity in federal court. Those statements are not supported by sufficient guarantees of trustworthiness given the totality of circumstances (FAIL: the people making the statement won’t self-identify and they won’t name the people who are making the statements), AND it is not more probative than any other evidence that can be obtained through reasonable efforts (FAIL: there are reasonable ways to obtain evidence such as the reporter could find a witnesses to the alleged conversations with Obama who will identify themselves or the reporter could try to speak with Obama himself — the “story” claims that the reporter only called Obama’s spokesperson who declined comment).

    I must admit, Aileen Cannon might accept the evidence, but real judges would not.

  509. 509.

    CaseyL

    @Chris Johnson: ​

    Don’t you dare go there, with the “they really mean Jews” thing.

    I’m Jewish, and I’m about as angry at the megadonors as I can be without committing a crime.

    I don’t and never have seen this as a “Jews Control the Money” thing; I see it as “US Oligarchs, already controlling one major political party, want to control the other one as well.”

  510. 510.

    tam1MI

    @Eyeroller:I just saw something on Pocket (Firefox) from NBC News that “Democrats” are deciding Biden’s fate.

    They called on him to step aside, he and the 14 million voters who voted for him the primary said “No”, they are forcing it anyway.

    This is straight up electoral rape.

    … IF what NBC says is true, which is a big “IF”.

  511. 511.

    Eyeroller

    @Mike in Pasadena: People disagree with me on this, but that’s why I think Obama should come out with some kind of statement to stop all these anonymously-sourced rumors.  He could just say he supports Joe’s successes and Joe will make the decision and he’ll support whatever that decision is.  But he won’t do even that.

    One thing that is increasingly clear is that Nancy Pelosi is behind the drip-drip-drip of House members announcing they believe Biden should step down.

  512. 512.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Eyeroller: One thing that is increasingly clear is that Nancy Pelosi is behind the drip-drip-drip of House members announcing they believe Biden should step down.

    As someone who went through this same conversation herself, you think she would know better. She and her ally of convenience, Seth Moulton who led the effort against her, should enjoy each other’s company.

  513. 513.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Apparently Hillary is supporting Biden. She’s been right about almost everything, so I’m inclined to go with her judgement.

  514. 514.

    Another Scott

    @Eyeroller:

    Nitter (Twitter version):

    Barack Obama
    @BarackObama
    Jun 28

    Bad debate nights happen. Trust me, I know. But this election is still a choice between someone who has fought for ordinary folks his entire life and someone who only cares about himself. Between someone who tells the truth; who knows right from wrong and will give it to the American people straight — and someone who lies through his teeth for his own benefit. Last night didn’t change that, and it’s why so much is at stake in November. joebiden.com

    Jun 28, 2024 · 6:36 PM UTC

    Somehow it didn’t stop FTFNYT from writing 192 (IIRC) stories…

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  516. 516.

    Geminid

    @schrodingers_cat: I know this. But the commenter said Gaza was Kay’s stated reason for wanting to replace Biden and that is just not so.

    And why is the commenter trying to throw Salim al-Shatel in Kay’s face? The guy ran for state representative in 2022 and finished 3rd in the primary with 14%. The commenter’s claim that there is a chance for him to defeat Rep. Hilary Scholten in this primary is so much hogwash. And if he did al-Shatel could not win in November.

    Yet this commenter was encouraging us to donate to al-Shatel a few days ago, and talking about how great it would be to see Scholten “go down in flames.” Democrats busted their asses to flip that western Michigan seat this last cycle. Republican had held it for many decades.

    So why was the commenter trying to undercut Scholten? They were trying to stoke animus towards Democratic officeholders, and now they are stoking animus towards a Balloon Juice commenter. I don’t know what the game is but I do not take this commenter at face value.

  517. 517.

    Chris Johnson

    @CaseyL: That’s fair. Generally I’m less direct about this. My point is that these people building up a public consensus about ‘what is happening behind closed doors’, the whole suggested drama that we can’t see, traces back a looooong way. The trappings are new but we’re seeing media sounding very old calls.

    They are manufacturing propaganda for the purpose of making Democrats freak out and reject Biden, then reject Harris, reject anyone supposed to replace them, reject EVERYBODY. It’s really not about the media trying to make the Democrats pick somebody they will inexplicably like. That’s not possible.

    I do not approve of them leaning this direction. And I think it’s a very old direction, and that they are not actually sympathetic to these supposed Dem megadonors. I think it’ll twist, instantly, the second they can twist it. I think there’s dogwhistles in there.

  518. 518.

    Mike in Pasadena

    @Another Scott: Ahh, so there has been a statement by Obama. Good to know we don’t have to accept or tolerate the “Why doesn’t Obama say something?!”

  519. 519.

    Another Scott

    @Mike in Pasadena: To be clear, that Obama statement was just after the debate.

    The idea that Obama (or anyone else) controls the narrative is, er, well, …

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  520. 520.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Another Scott: Somehow it didn’t stop FTFNYT from writing 192 (IIRC) stories…

    That was the figure a week ago, wasn’t it? Probably a lot more now.

    Maybe a news outlet with a sense of humor can put up a tracker for all the shit bag MSM outlets pushing this to shame them.

  521. 521.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Chris Johnson: It’s really not about the media trying to make the Democrats pick somebody they will inexplicably like.

    I don’t care whom they pick or how much I like this person. They could elevate my favorite Democrat in the whole wide world.

    I will not support a process that wasn’t led by voters.

  522. 522.

    Eyeroller

    @Mike in Pasadena: That was the day after the debate.  It was a good statement.  But he’s done nothing since to counter the dump-Biden movement as it has gathered steam and distracted us from attacking Trump.

  524. 524.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Eyeroller: Are we meant to assume with Obama, like Biden, that any time after his official statement he might arbitrarily change his mind?

  525. 525.

    Eyeroller

    @The Kropenhagen Interpretation: No, but remember that this has already gone down the memory hole.  Who even knows he said it?  I didn’t.  Meanwhile we get article after article about “people familiar with his thinking” and he doesn’t correct the record.

  526. 526.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Eyeroller: Boycott the press. They’re in full mask-off mode now and have confirmed what many of us have long suspected; the big business of media is an enemy of democracy and average working people. It is weaponizing innuendo and faulty logic to protect their place on top of the heap.

    To some of us, this has been known a long time.

  528. 528.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: They often set up tip lines for “big” stories like this.  Maybe I should call in.

    I know a guy who knows a guy who is familiar with Obama’s thinking. He thinks you’re a choad.

  529. 529.

    Another Scott

    @Eyeroller: That Tweet of Obama has “❤️ 648,553”.  He’s got 131,770,030 followers.

    I think people who want to know what he thinks are aware.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  531. 531.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @me: I know, for one, the principle people I want determining the future of Democrats include Condoleeza Rice, Stanley McChrystal, Robert Gates, Liz Cheney, and Ben Sasse.

  532. 532.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Another Scott: Nice try, everyone knows “648,553” means the account is under control of Deep State Space Lasers. Only a white male pundit in New York is qualified to tell what Obama is really thinking in Chicago.

  534. 534.

    tam1MI

    Just took a peek at the website for the Great Orange Satan.  Based on the trending diaries there, it looks like they are pretty much all in on Ridin’ with Biden.  Here are some interesting factoids I got from the diaries posted there:

    *The Pass the Torch rally that the media has media has been flogging as some big huge thing got a grand total of 30 attendees.

    *The Clintons are working on bringing the big donors back around to Joe.

    *These tidbits are from down in the comments, so take with a grain of salt, but there appears be a number of commenters who are pulling their donations from Adam Schiff, Tim Kaine, etc. and redirecting them to Biden.  Another commenter claims that Biden is getting “record-breaking” numbers from small donations.  One says there is a movement afoot in California to write in Katie Porter’s name for Senator in November.  Another has studied the methodology of the polls claiming that the majority of Democrats want Biden out and it turns out the polls did not screen for Democrats.

    *This one I am pretty sure people here can confirm or deny:  Dean Obeidallah was on MSNBC talking to Michelle Goldberg saying that 95% of the calls he was getting were for Joe to stay in (Goldberg then talked over him and said he didn’t know what he was talking about).

    *This one I was able to check for myself:  Adam Schiff is getting absolutely flambeed on his Facebook page for his backstabbing of Biden.

  535. 535.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    @tam1MI: Just took a peek at the website for the Great Orange Satan. Based on the trending diaries there, it looks like they are pretty much all in on Ridin’ with Biden.

    This is what I’m seeing in comment sections full of actual voters everywhere. It’s almost like this is an entirely media-led phenomenon and committed Democrat-affiliated voters support Biden right across the board.

  537. 537.

    Mike in Pasadena

    @Eyeroller: Good point, we haven’t heard him repeat his initial statement. He isn’t under an obligation to say more, but it might help. Of course, Obama may have said more, but we haven’t seen it.

  538. 538.

    SomeRandomGuy

    @Kay: Again – the risk that Biden will have another public episode is huge – it’s going to happen.

    You keep saying “another public episode” while referencing a man who has not had an “episode”.

    Look: did you have a visceral reaction to him, because of the old man cooties? It’s okay to have a horrible emotional reaction to something that triggers you. What’s *not* okay is to let your own emotional reaction cause you to engage in stupid, hateful, behavior. You need to learn to control your emotions.

     

    Biden will win. Trump is an overconfident moron.

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