Harris has basically locked up the nomination. Not only have enough delegates pledged to vote for her, she’s got the endorsement of pretty much every Democratic office holder of note (both Schumer and Jeffries endorsed today).
I sure didn’t expect this to go as smoothly as it has, and it’s a tribute to Joe Biden’s selfless act, and his orchestration behind the scenes, as well as the work of countless others, that we’ve avoided the god awful contested convention mess that pundits and a few dumb Democrats wanted to saddle us with. (And Harris of course!)
If you want to feast on the bitter tears of donors who didn’t get their way, head over to LGM, where Cheryl has the details on some asshole donor who doesn’t want Harris, but instead wants some combination of candidates that includes Manchin.
Over at Steve M’s place, he has the details on the ridiculous proposal cooked up by Ezra Klein, who can’t quit this shit:
I think there’s a middle path here that Democrats should consider. None of the top-tier candidates are going to challenge Harris for the nomination. But what about some second- or third-tier candidates? Let a few up-and-comers make their case against Donald Trump. Let’s see some CNN town halls, some multicandidate forums. Nobody is going to go negative on each other here. Give the country a reason to watch a lineup of young Democrats, most of all Harris, make their cases against Trump day after day for the next few weeks.
Think of it not as a contest. Think of it as an exhibition. Maybe the people who’ve endorsed Harris can participate, too. She’s going to need a vice president. So maybe Gretchen Whitmer and Shapiro and Kelly and Beshear should be up there, too…. Maybe a little strategic ambiguity about what these candidate forums and voter town halls are would be good.
The last. fucking. thing. that is needed at this moment is ambiguity, strategic or otherwise.
Finally, here’s an explainer [gift link] on the whole coconut/Brat meme that’s gone viral about Harris.
Yes I’ll Turn My Back on This World
Highway Rob
Jesus. You’d have thought the Toobin experience would’ve taught them all a lesson about doing that in a professional context where people can see you.
But NOOOOooOOooOOO.
Citizen Alan
I remember liking Ezra Klein at some point, but it seems so long ago.
NeenerNeener
The gift link wants me to login/buy a subscription. archive.ph to the rescue:
https://archive.ph/WyWTe
Matt McIrvin
They want their show of conflict and drama SO BAD.
OId Man Shadow
Regardless of whether or not I agreed with you or your arguments, at least those of you who wanted Harris and are excited by her are not Stupid Evil chaos monkeys (DC: 30, almost impossible to kill) who think this is all entertainment instead of literal life and death for some people.
HumboldtBlue
And fuck Ezra Klein, Ezra is a stupid fucking name anyway.
Argiope
@Citizen Alan: Same. I actually thought he had some sense until a few months ago. Maybe Ezra got RFK’s brain worm.
rikyrah
Elie Mystal (@ElieNYC) posted at 2:11 PM on Tue, Jul 23, 2024:
I think I can sum up why Black people have coalesced around Harris in a few days, whereas the community didn’t in 2020, in one word: Pragmatism.
Black voters are the most pragmatic voting bloc. We’re interested in who has the best chance to mitigate white harm.
(https://x.com/ElieNYC/status/1815827100580147469?t=iNUOeZ0vhoCqj7a925qebw&s=03)
Highway Rob
@HumboldtBlue: There’s a “Better than Ezra” joke here that’s just out of my grasp.
Martin
You expect me to rely on The Washington Post to explain a zoomer social media meme? Get the fuck out with that bullshit. Find me a 2nd year sociology major from Colorado State – you know, an expert.
BR
I think this whole episode has worked to inoculate Dems to media stupidity — they were going to spend the election attacking the Dem candidate, but I think we’re all tired of it and won’t put up with them doing the same to Harris after they succeeded in doing it to Biden. They’re going to find their influence is zilch. Same with donors who don’t get on board.
I do hope folks don’t take stuff they see on X / twitter seriously though — lots of bots and misinformation there, and it’s going to get far worse.
SatanicPanic
Holy shit did Ezra read these two sentences back to himself before hitting send on this? It’s so fucking dumb. I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t realize how dumb it sounds.
Princess
Or, wait, I know Ezra! Why don’t we get a bunch of second and third string candidates to appear on stage with Harris to trash Trump and also endorse and advocate for her?We can call it a campaign event!
Or even better, Ezra — you can just shut up.
Thr NYT is like the dog who caught the car. They got what they said they wanted and now they need to figure out a way to wreck that too
Almost Retired
@HumboldtBlue: Almost any name is Better Than Ezra.
…wait….why does that sound familiar…?!?
ETA: Someone beat me to it. As per usual
rikyrah
@rikyrah:
Elie Mystal (@ElieNYC) posted at 2:11 PM on Tue, Jul 23, 2024:
In 2020, the Senator from California didn’t look like the most pragmatic choice to beat Donald Trump. Joe Biden did.
In 2024, the Vice President on the ticket that already beat Donald Trump looks like the most pragmatic choice to beat Donald Trump.
(https://x.com/ElieNYC/status/1815827101800440124?t=dEg-2jJOgCx0D6mEUKp6pA&s=03)
Joseph Nobles
Gift links are now requiring you to give them an email address before you can read.
Well, I just unsubscribed from WaPo last month. Maybe it’s always been like that. But ugh.
Highway Rob
@Almost Retired: No, no, yours was Good.
Old School
@SatanicPanic: I’m not sure we’re going to be able to get Oprah and Mr. Beast for second- and third-tier candidates.
Liz Cheney might still be available.
zhena gogolia
I believe it’s been explained by several commenters that the coconut meme is considered racist by South Asians. But what do I know.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Martin: LOL
Here’s a link from Pink News, then: https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/07/22/kamala-harris-coconut-meme-explained-as-the-internet-declares-coconut-tree-summer-is-here/
There is no login required for this one. Since many have told me that gift links don’t work on the Post without signon, I’ve been looking for other sources.
japa21
I was totally “Stay in Joe” mode and devastated when he announced he was dropping out.
I doubt I will see another President even close to him in my lifetime.
I now realize his dropping out was a statement of how important it is beat Trump and that Harris may have a better shot.
The orchestration of the process has been so impressive that it really prevents any of the potential chaos the media and pundits want.
Basically, the vast majority of people who were in my category will vote with enthusiasm for Harris, and a lot of people who were lukewarm on Biden will be enthusiastic about Harris.
rikyrah
Fly Sistah (@Fly_Sistah) posted at 8:35 AM on Tue, Jul 23, 2024:
President Biden set VP Harris up for success. Over 350 foreign policy leaders endorse Harris in open letter declaring she has more international experience than most recent incoming presidents. John Kerry, Susan Rice, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Hagel, Leon Panetta, Michael Hayden https://t.co/TRJhvwTFdv
(https://x.com/Fly_Sistah/status/1815742646721073543?t=YTABzX9714TAy1wQr7LbGw&s=03)
Trollhattan
Our billyunnaires are checking in with their thoughts. Somebody rolled up a short list.
Musk: My smartest friends, including those living in the San Francisco Bay Area who have been lifelong Dems, are excited about Trump/Vance. I believe in an America that maximizes individual freedom and merit.
That used to be the Democratic Party, but now the pendulum has swung to the Republican Party.
“Smartest” doing some heavy lifting here, but thanks for the thoughts.
Cuban: Father time is undefeated.
Remains utterly never-Trump.
“If they were having his last wake, and it was him versus Trump, and he was being given last rites, I would still vote for Joe Biden,”
Bill Ackman? It would have been a noble act if @POTUS Biden had stepped aside six months or a year ago. Today, it was a desperate act of a desperate party that abused the democratic process in destroying competition in the primary, misleading the American people about the fitness of the president, and executing a coup when the polls turned against the president.
Ackman also questioned whether the decision to remove Biden from the ticket actually came from the president himself, pointing to the lack of a digital signature, photo op, and press conference.
“If this were a hostage situation, that letter would not qualify as proof of life,”
Okay then.
Melinda Gates: President Biden deserves tremendous gratitude for his many decades of public service and his effective leadership from the White House during an especially consequential time for our nation. Over the past four years, President Biden has steered our country through multiple crises with a steady hand. He brought us through the pandemic, restored our global standing, and kept the economy on track, all while maintaining his commitment to expanding equality and opportunity for all.
In a career that has spanned eras of historic progress as well as periods of frightening backlash, he has been a strong advocate for women and girls. Every item on his long list of accomplishments has improved people’s lives—and no president before him has done as much to champion America’s caregivers and the vital role they play in our families, our economy, and our country.
President Biden also has my admiration for encouraging us to look forward and to understand that the stakes of this election simply could not be higher. The trajectory of the next several decades depends on what happens in the next several months.
We have seen what a Trump administration looks like, and we cannot risk another one. I encourage you to study the issues. Speak up for what you believe in. Vote in November, and make sure the people around you do, too.
NB French Gates had never endorsed a presidential candidate before, but she wrote in an op-ed for CNN that “the stakes for women and families couldn’t be higher.”
Branson: President Biden standing down is a smart, principled decision by a smart, principled man and gives the opportunity for the next generation to move America and humanity forward.
My $0.02: an opportunity to pull new players into the fold awaits Harris & Co.
rodwell
I swear all these pundits and others really want Trump to win but want to have “clean” hands about it. Some of these pundits just want chaos because it is good for clicks. The guy over in the LGM post (John Morgan) wants Joe Machin as President probably Krysten Sinema as VP. They can campaign as the two biggest pains in the ass to Joe Biden. That will win over the Democratic base.
zhena gogolia
@rikyrah: That’s good.
Ridnik Chrome
I have to say I’m very heartened by how quickly the party has come together around Harris. It’s definitely not what I was expecting when people first started talking about Biden stepping down.
@HumboldtBlue: Thanks for the fact check. Saw that very same canard in my FB feed last night.
Kirk
WP link doesn’t like me, but quite fortunately Glamour does a very good explainer as well.
Teen Beat, People, Glamour – I can remember when those used to be the non-serious rags with no real reporters. I can hardly wait to see what magazine joins this group of the current elite. PC Gamer, maybe?
Sean
@Matt McIrvin:
Right? Meanwhile the crowd at Kamala’s rally today, I mean it’s Dem partisans, so we shouldn’t oversell, but they are fucking ecstatic.
Breaking into LOUD chants. “KA-MA-LA” and “WE WON’T GO BACK.” It’s like a primal scream.
The cynic in me avoids hope at all costs, but this is giving me hope that I haven’t felt in some time.
TBone
Wonder Woman don’t need any lanes, she has an invisible plane!
lamh47
Ok, I’ve been posting this everytime I see this coconut emoji, or the latest deep fake video using Kamala Harris’s laugh to make content.
Hey…did you know that the coconut emoji is actually considered a racial slur? Seriously, go google the definition of coconut and pay close attention to the slang definition.
The folks mentioning the story MVP told once on the trail as the background for the use of the emoji, but when you pay attention you realize the term as it has been used in social media started as a meme and disgusting attack on MVP by RW/MAGA online and deep web attackers.
I know not everyone is aware of the slang associated with the word. So if you or anyone you know is using the coconut emoji…ask them if they know the context! If they say they don’t it’s on you to decide if you believe them or if they are being racist P.O.S. If you beleive them…tell them the context and see if they stop using the term or the emoji.
On MSNBC last night Rachel Maddow discussed the whole BRAT/coconut etc meme.
Amy Kloubacher was one of the guest for that segment.
I really appreciate Amy for setting the record straight on MSNBC, that all this stuff about coconuts and Kamala’s laugh STARTED in Republican spaces as an assault against her!!!
So yes the campaign will have to set a line where they let some of it go and another line where you confront them on it.
Omnes Omnibus
FFS, I did not support Biden getting out. I may even still have some “feelings” about the process and the people involved. But Biden is getting out. I supported Harris as my first choice in 2019. I am happy to support her now. Beating Trump is still the goal. Anyone who wants entertainment can fuck off. I am doing canvassing this weekend.
BR
@Sean:
She ended strong.
SatanicPanic
@Old School: I wouldn’t be surprised if Ezra did put Liz forth as a possible candidate or as a VP possibility.
George
Everything about Biden’s withdrawal from the race and the overwhelming support for Harris seems to be part of a well-executed plan. Contrary to the way that the media, the rightwing, and even some on my side of the political spectrum seem to think that the way things went down was chaotic and last-minute, I realize that the Biden administration had a series of contingency plans ready to go, based on circumstances.
Roughly 48 hours after Biden’s decision, we have a candidate who is generating enthusiasm and donations. Good on both Biden and Harris for having worked all this out over the past 3.5 years. Good leaders are good planners.
Compare that to the halfwit clown show last week in Milwaukee and the chaos that would ensue if suddenly Trump dropped from the race. I guarantee that the GOP has no such contingency plans in place.
HumboldtBlue
@Old School:
Hey, wait a minute! What about SINEMA!!!!!????
zhena gogolia
Here’s another link people might look at before embracing this meme:
Sean
@BR:
I need to find the clips. I also saw that Trump’s pollster is trying to preempt any rollout polling for KH as a “bump” that is driven by the media. Um – they must be a little worried about what non-hypothetical polls are gonna show if they’re already working to blunt the momentum narrative. Wonder what they are seeing internally.
Hoodie
It is striking to see how ostensibly successful people can be so profoundly dumb. That proposal from Klein is outright juvenile, like he thinks this is a game show. Pundit Brain is a sad disease.
zhena gogolia
@lamh47: Exactly.
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: The Orange tyrant used it to attack KH.
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh47: Like a lot of things involving race, ethnicity, and gender, I figure that people from the minority/historically disfavored group can chose to reclaim slurs. I don’t have a license to touch them.
Unrelatedly, welcome back. It’s good to see you again.
Also unrelatedly, any thoughts on the idea of Mitch Landrieu as VP?
schrodingers_cat
@lamh47: I have been trying to tell them in more than one thread..
Rob Roser
So many people who think they’ll be fine under our new overlords treat everything like a big show. They want the spectacle and the performances and have no interest in substance. Fuck those people.
Ukai
Almost considered signing up for a NYT account just to ask in the comments whether Ezra had doubled his dosage of moron pills.
Almost.
Old School
@HumboldtBlue: Oprah, Mr. Beast, and Liz Cheney were potential moderators for the debates in some memo somebody circulated. Not candidates.
Edit: Circulated by Georgetown law professor Rosa Brooks and venture capitalist Ted Dintersmith
Kirk
@lamh47:
Good point, but I would like to note that it seems this is being turned in the same fashion as the Brandon insult changed.
So if it’s being embraced by her team, is it really an insult to follow?
dmsilev
There is, right now, precisely one non-Harris Democratic candidate still ostensibly in the race: Marianne Williamson. Does Ezra think she should be invited to some sort of bizarre town hall/debate forum/whatever? And which “tier” would he put her into?
I feel that, just like Evil Overlords, political pundits would do well to run their proposed schemes by an average five year old child before implementing or publicly writing about them.
NotMax
To: Ezra Klein
It’s not a game show.
Ridnik Chrome
@Sean: Five Thirty Eight just posted four Ipsos polls (two registered voters, two all voters), taken today. In three of them Harris is ahead of TFG, and in the fourth they’re even. Somewhat reassuring, I’d say.
Kirk
@Kirk: Let me add – I’m not using it. don’t feel comfortable using for the reasons you mentioned. I’m just … we just came from a nasty argument and there are a crap ton of joyful people expressing it as a positive. I’m a little sensitive to the potential consequences of this conflict.
Captain C
Are these people just stupid or do they care more about contrarian clickbait than showing the world how idiotic they are?
Captain C
@Matt McIrvin: And yet, it’s right there in the Republican Party if they want it.
Dave
@japa21: That was my biggest concern that our all to clever pundits, insiders, and big donors would create an idiotic not actually managed process that would shatter party cohesion but also the media wasn’t going to let up doesn’t matter how much or little you personally think there was to it they would never have stopped.
The current situation was a brilliant job of getting inside the OODA loop. How it will ultimately play out I obviously have not idea but the situation is vastly better than 96hrs ago.
Some of my trepidation is that I’m generally cautious and I annoyed that Biden has never received the credit I think he deserves but that was allowing emotions to color analysis.
As it is the odds that he will be is going to receive huge recognition and kudos is high so I’m not wasting a second on resentment.
Sean
@Ridnik Chrome:
I just read the poll. The matchup that includes RFJ Jr. has her leading by 4, outside the margin of error. Pretty, pretty cool.
This same survey had Trump vs hypothetical KH matchup as Trump +1 in early July, then tied mid July, and now Harris at +2. Conducted this week (Mond/Tues). Seems like pretty clear momentum.
dmsilev
@NotMax:
It is to him. Or, at least he wants it to be.
zhena gogolia
@Kirk: Brandon was not a racial insult.
ETA: I don’t care how joyful you are, when someone in a marginalized group tells you something is racist, please listen.
rikyrah
Serious “OG KHive” Black 🗳 (@NicsuPR) posted at 3:00 PM on Tue, Jul 23, 2024:
Been cackling to myself because, with 1 meeting, #WinWithBlackMen debunked the gold sneaker, rapper buying, mugshot gives me street cred, Black jobs, #BlacksforTrump racist BS Trump and the Republicans tried with African Americans.
(https://x.com/NicsuPR/status/1815839514490749037?t=EijwxxWgk-2bjUn_8cU1XA&s=03)
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: I am baffled at the idea of the coconut meme being “racist” given the specific context in which it became connected to Kamala (i.e. a saying of her mother about the importance of understanding history and one’s own community). Unless context doesn’t matter and it’s okay to complain because something sounds like something else that might be racist. Like that time some poor city official (in D.C., IIRC) got fired for daring to use the word “niggardly” in a perfectly reasonable and proper context and it inflamed a bunch of people too lazy to open a dictionary.
zhena gogolia
@Citizen Alan: She can tell the story whenever she pleases. But using “coconut” emojis to refer to her is racist.
Dave
@Dave: I should never post on my phone. Can not proof read ahead of time to save my life.
Jay
@Joseph Nobles:
Nope, that’s a recent thing since the mass dump of subscribers, and there is no F’n way I am giving them my email.
hueyplong
Kind of makes you wonder what tier Dean Phillips occupied. How is it possible Klein gets paid to write?
$8 blue check mistermix
The context of the coconut meme is something her mother told her to remind her that everything has a context: “I don’t know what’s wrong with you young people — you think you just dropped out of a coconut tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you.” That’s the genesis of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JWR29RT5sw&t=7s
When the Harris campaign disavows the millions of dollars of free viral media they’re getting from this, I’ll be sure to let you know.
ETA: @Citizen Alan got there first, thanks.
ALurkSupreme
@Omnes Omnibus: Meh to Landrieu.
I realize that’s not much of a thought, but I don’t see what he would add to the ticket.
eclare
@Kirk:
Teen Vogue is very, very good.
Ridnik Chrome
@Sean: It would be awesome if RFK Jr. ends up ratfucking Trump instead of the Dems.
zhena gogolia
@$8 blue check mistermix: Okay, so we can just ignore what POC on this blog are telling us. Fine. I’ve learned a lot about this place in the last few weeks.
Citizen Alan
@zhena gogolia: okay, I won’t do that and never have. Personally, I loathe emojis and generally don’t use any of them other than the smiley face and the thumbs up.
Kirk
@zhena gogolia: Please see my addendum at @Kirk.
Served
People, specifically young people of diverse backgrounds, are using the coconut out of affection and energy for her campaign, and pulling it from a different context. Her campaign is embracing it. The fact that the RNC originally clipped it as an insult and it has now backfired and is a source of connection with voters just goes to show how far out to pasture they are in trying to sling mud ad Harris.
I don’t think we should be undercutting the campaign’s messaging and channeling of energy from young voters that was starkly missing before Sunday.
lamh47
@Omnes Omnibus:
I get it. The idea of reclaiming a slur or attack. Example politically is the “Dark Brandon” meme that the Biden/Harris reclaimed.
In some cases that works great…but I agree with what Amy Klobochar said. The campaign can embrace some parts of the reclaiming, but a line should and must be drawn where it’s considered an overstep.
The deep fake stuff even the ones with “good intentions” that I’ve seen online (tik/tok and whatnot) is a step too far IMO.
Suzanne
@$8 blue check mistermix: To note: the KHive and other people who are generally being supportive of Harris are really memeing about “coconut tree” specifically. And they’re using two emojis together: a coconut, and a palm tree.
ETA: Also the emergence of “coconutpilled” as a shorthand for being pro-Kamala, which is mashing up the “coconut tree” thing with the “redpilled” slang.
Language shift moves fast on the internet.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Citizen Alan:
20 years ago when Little Ezra was running a blog designed to bolster his resume when coming out of college.
He pretty much became who he’s been the instant he got a “real job” with a “real” media company.
brendancalling
John Morgan, the crybaby Rofer calls out, leads a national firm of ambulance chasers. He has billboards all over Philly portraying himself as an Eagle, one of the Phillies, Ben Franklin, and more. HE’S NOT EVEN FROM HERE. HE LIVES IN FLORIDA.
I’ve hated Morgan’s ads for years, but have put that aside because he’s a Democrat. No more—dude can kiss my ass.
$8 blue check mistermix
@zhena gogolia: You’re not the spokesperson for all POC, and certainly not for the Harris campaign, so I’ll definitely ignore your advice on this one.
Omnes Omnibus
@ALurkSupreme: I was asking her because she’s from NOLA. What he brings is what Obama got from Biden. He is a safe party insider and he has been the Admin’s infrastructure guy. Plus, he doesn’t put a governorship or senate seat at risk.
zhena gogolia
God, I give up.
KatKapCC
The notion that the Black woman who has been serving as VP — in which, once again, the main job duty is PREPARING TO BE PRESIDENT — should have to put on a dog-and-pony show alongside a bunch of white people in order for Ezra Fucking Klein to be okay with the election is so monumentally ignorant and bigoted. The fact that this dude has ever been taken seriously as a pundit proves how pathetically poor our pundit class is.
zhena gogolia
@$8 blue check mistermix: There are two POC on this very thread whom you seem to be ignoring in favor of attacking me.
$8 blue check mistermix
@Suzanne: Yes, exactly — don’t step on something that is meant as a positive expression of support.
Beagleowned
I very seldom post. Today is different. I am tickled pink to watch the incredible swell and expansion of the Kamalanami!
Catch a wave!
Matt McIrvin
@Sean: Intensity among the partisans is really important, though. That’s how you win. More than persuading swing voters, certainly.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Hoodie:
Nominated!
Served
@Suzanne: and notably, a lot of people are calling themselves Coconuts in a manner that is similar to KHive, as a term for someone who is a Kamala super fan. Also calling themselves “coconut-pilled”
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh47: Like I said, I am not going to touch it.
Kay
@Suzanne:
There’s a viral version in Spanish now on Tik Tok. Oddly, Pete Buttigieg has a cameo in it.
Crazy kids.
Jay
@lamh47:
@zhena gogolia:
If you want to flag support for MVP Kamala Harris with an emogi, use a Palm Tree.
The “fell out of a coconut tree” has a bunch of intended meanings.
One is, coconut palm trees are easy to climb so how did you managed to fall out of one?
When said by a loved one, its a variation of “use your brain/think”,
When said by not a loved one, it’s along the lines of “you are such a moron”,
BR
I’m liking MN gov Walz. Blunt but on the right side.
Martin
@Sean:
I’m surprised ⅓ have never heard of Newsom. Figured he’d done a pretty good job getting his name out there.
CaseyL
a href=”#comment-9281317″ data-mce-fragment=”1″>@zhena gogolia:
But when the candidate herself has embraced it…?<
Must feel a little strange to insist on finding a racial insult when the person it’s all about does not.
Maybe Kamala is too assimilated to notice?
Lochnessmom
@rikyrah: Chuck Hagel is the last Republican I had a modicum of respect for. So good for him.
And fuck Ezra Klein. If he ever had a well-reasoned thought in his head it died of loneliness.
zhena gogolia
@Jay: Don’t worry, nothing I say on this blog has any validity.
Matt McIrvin
@Sean: That’s consistent with what I just noticed about Harris’s “disapprove” trending down over the same period. She’s still net negative by a lot, but everyone in this race is, which is probably part of the reason why pundits think somebody else should ride in on a white horse. (They often think in terms of hypothetical frictionless A vs. B switches.)
BR
@zhena gogolia:
Well I’m on the other side of this — and I agree with mistermix. Language is what we make of it. People can reappropriate things that were used as slurs and give them new meaning. I think it’s wholesome how it’s being used in support of Harris. Context matters — which is exactly what Harris’s point was, btw.
Jay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Coconut, Oreo and Banana cannot be reclaimed.
Outside the community it’s a slur on authenticity, just like it is inside the community.
And reclaimed words use, belongs to the community that reclaimed them, and even then some in the community do not like those words being used in the community.
KatKapCC
@Kirk: To me, the difference is that the Brandon meme wasn’t based in bigotry. Context matters.
Suzanne
@Kay: I’m still trying to figure out what the hell “skibbedy” means. I thought I knew what “sigma” meant. I was mistaken, apparently.
Tony Jay
I’m middle-aged and British and since I was a kid ‘coconut’ has been a racially charged term that means exactly what it sounds like – brown on the outside, white on the inside.
Now, if people of colour want to take that term and repurpose it into something positive in the way gay people did with queer, well, more power to them. Can’t see exactly how that would work but it’s not my fun factory and things don’t happen until they do, so while I won’t be using the term (pause for a moment to contemplate the scenario where that might happen… fail) I’m not going to wax poetic about how wrong they are.
Also, I’m not going to waste a lot of time thinking or writing about it. That’s the job of professional wedge-hammerers at the FTFNYT. They love that shit.
Ridnik Chrome
@Citizen Alan: Why even use a word like “niggardly”, which is not a commonly used word these days, when there are plenty of other synonyms that would get the meaning across much better, like “stingy” or even “miserly”? Poor judgement on that official’s part, I’d say (and possibly even an intentional provocation).
Old School
@Martin:
Normies are normies. It wouldn’t surprise me if 1/3 said they hadn’t heard of Kamala Harris before this week.
ALurkSupreme
@Omnes Omnibus: Gotcha. Just my opinion, but we should focus on a state and region we have a chance of winning. Landrieu’s a moderate Dem from a longtime moderate Dem family, although the family’s record with racial issues has been very good. Otherwise, meh. The Dems have already turned everything about this election on its head, they’ve got momentum, and I’d like to see them keep it up.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay: That’s pretty much what I was saying.
SatanicPanic
My mom is Chicana and she uses coconut to talk about Mexican Americans who are white on the inside. It’s a slur but one coming from inside the community to disparage other people in the community so not like calling someone “wetback”. I don’t know if it’s particularly problematic here to say we’re “coconut pilled” but I don’t care to die on this hill either. Doesn’t seem like a big issue either way.
O. Felix Culpa
@BR: No. Members of the community in question get to reappropriate. Not outsiders. Not ever. I’ll take Kamala’s lead in whether she repurposes the coconut on the order of Dark Brandon, and not presume to do it without her permission. The coconut tree, on the other hand, clearly references a much-loved story about her mother. I’ll defer to members of the relevant community to tell me if that’s different.
Eyeroller
People of color keep begging white people to stop using the coconut tree emojis and white people keep “explaining” it (I also saw it at Digby’s). It would be like using a turnip and a truck emoji for a white person, with the extra meaning that “coconut” has racial overtones. I have seen requests to please use a lotus icon instead, since her name means Lotus.
BR
@O. Felix Culpa:
Yeah, so I’m telling you that I approve of this reappropriation. There is no unanimity among us brown folks about this.
Ohio Mom
I can see how “you didn’t fall from a coconut tree” could have one meaning, and calling someone a coconut a completely different one.
It’s easy enough to substitute something about Kamala knowing where where she’s from and appreciating her heritage while skipping everything about tree fruit.
We can hope some creative soul will come up with a nonoffensive visual meme. In the meantime, I continue to like the play on initials, MVP.
brendancalling
@KatKapCC: I have a great idea for a reality show. It involves abandoning Ezra Klein on a deserted island with no food, water, tools, companions, or shelter. That’s episode one.
After three months, we go back to the island to see what’s left of Ezra. That’s episode two.
There isn’t an episode three.
BR
https://beige.party/@TheJen/112837686826710344
O. Felix Culpa
@BR: Well, there’s at least one other South Asian voice on this blog who begs to differ. So I’ll wait to take cues from Kamala herself. As a member of another marginalized group, I’ll err on the side of caution, out of respect.
lamh47
@Citizen Alan:
Coconut: a person of color, especially a person of Latin American or South Asian origin or descent, who is regarded as having adopted the attitudes, values, and behavior thought to be characteristic of middle-class white society, at the expense of their ethnic heritage. Compare Oreo.
I’ll say this when it comes to use of languages that marginalized folks find offensive. Slang terms becomes common term all the time.
I can’t force anyone not to use any words they so choose. Freedom or speech and all that jazz. But what I can say is…knowing the context and that some folks may who are members of the marginalized groups do consider it a slur, continued use of the term/imagery in mixed company on the internet is what it is, but for an in person to person context you are choosing to ignore the discomfort it might cause that person.
As for online purposes, just know that everyone using that emoji are not all coming from a good place.
Tony Jay
@Jay:
I’ve heard the first two, but never ‘banana’ in that context. Now I’ve heard it, it’s “Oh, of course”.
Kay
@Suzanne:
Ha! I have no idea. I love how they use a bunch of rapidly shuffled still photos behind but Harris is the only person moving thru the frame. Tik Tok is mesmerizing.
The Tweet MM used is Brian Schatz’s endorsement – the senator from Hawaii. Polis (Colorado) also did a coconut themed endorsement.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@BR:
Exactly. The following happened Sunday night at BWI airport and is a great example of how groups can reclaim/repurpose slurs.
Our Southworst flight to Denver was delayed 3.5 hours, typical Southworst clusterfuck that was so bad, even by their standards, that they said we could apply for compensation. And Southworst hates doing that.
I was in the C 30-60 group. Behind me were four young African American men, probably 20 and they were going home from some kind of basketball tourney.
As we’re pointlessly finding our spots in the last group, they were dead last and one looks to another and says “We are *literally* the last >insert obvious, long-used slur here only it ends in “as”< to get on this plane.”
I looked at em, 60+ year old white dude and started laughing while nodding my head. They then started laughing back and we continued that laughter, all the while they providing a running commentary on being on the “back of the bus” while liberally sprinkling that word into every sentence, as we went down the jetway.
It’s their word and they’re using it in a manner that speaks to them and reclaims it from hundreds of years of oppressive use.
So yeah, if the Harris campaign wants to do that and gives its blessing to others to run with it, more power to em.
Suzanne
@O. Felix Culpa: The Kamala campaign seems to be approving of the Brat and Coconut Tree memes, as a way of connecting with da yoot.
KatKapCC
Why are people struggling to see that there is a world of difference between Harris’s “coconut tree” phrase and the coconut emoji stuff? That saying from her mom could have used any kind of tree. The coconut emoji/coconut-pilled/whatever is specific and arises from a racial slur.
If Harris’s mom had said “Did you fall out of a banana tree” would white folks think it was totally cool to start tweeting pics of bananas at Black people and throwing bananas on stage?
Come on, folks.
SatanicPanic
@Jay: but, are you saying people in a community can’t use those?
I don’t really give a shit if people outside the community use these things- what’s the sting there? White people accusing me of being too white? I thought that’s what they wanted!
Unless they’re pretending to be part of the community in which case yeah that’s not cool.
Miki
@KatKapCC: “The notion that the Black woman who has been serving as VP — in which, once again, the main job duty is PREPARING TO BE PRESIDENT — should have to put on a dog-and-pony show alongside a bunch of white people in order for Ezra Fucking Klein to be okay with the election is so monumentally ignorant and bigoted.”
Perfect – seriously you hit every nail on its head here.
This is not difficult, not in the least.
Princess
@Eyeroller: Show me the white person, or any person in this thread who is using or has said they use or intend to use a coconut emoji to express support for Harris. All the original post does is describe how the campaign is using different memes to support Harris. If you don’t think that’s appropriate, take that up with them.
Eyeroller
@Ohio Mom: They already have, use a lotus to represent her name. If Harris is OK with the coconut and tree she may just accept it as inevitable.
Bugboy
My inner political consultant is telling me that vacating ANY seat in our hard won State Legislature beachheads is a bad idea. Which of these options is less of shitstorm than the other? Do we REALLY want 2 possible up-for-grabs Senate seats in Arizona right now? Sinema’s gone, right?
bluefoot
Multiple POC have asked if people would refrain from using the coconut emoji. At the very least, out of consideration, can people refrain from using it here on BJ?
@Tony Jay:
Banana is a common one in CA. It’s considered incredibly offensive.
lamh47
@Omnes Omnibus: I like Mitch. The Landrieus were a good political family to their African American constitutients compared to some of them.
But as VP…nah. He def doesn’t have the same weight as one of the other folks on the list from more battleground states.
Omnes Omnibus
@BR: And that is enough reason for us fish-belly white folks to stay well clear.
$8 blue check mistermix
@lamh47:
I am a potential coconut then (mom was Mexican). Not offended by the use in context, FWIW. I like the suggestion to use a tree along with the coconut, but memers gonna meme.
Also, they call her a brat – here’s the explanation from Charli XCX
“You’re just like that girl who is a little messy and likes to party and maybe says some dumb things sometimes. Who feels herself but maybe also has a breakdown. But kind of like parties through it, is very honest, very blunt. A little bit volatile. Like does dumb things. But it’s brat. You’re brat. That’s brat,” she said.
Eyeroller
@Princess: Nobody here does, it would just perhaps be best to boost a different icon that should not be in any way controversial. “Coconut” is like “oreo” but for people with lighter brown skin (brown/black on the outside, white on the inside). I’ve seen “banana” for some Asians.
Ryan
Indeed, Ezra. Larry the Dogcatcher should BE ON THAT DEBATE STAGE along with the sitting VP.
Sean
@Matt McIrvin:
I’m starting to get outright hopeful – this is a really great start. We then get what will likely be a VP selection lovefest, introduced just before the convention. Then we get the convention which, if these rallies are any indication, will be electric towards KH and the new VP. All as we head into September when normies have woken up to the reality of the election choice. People are laughing at Vance. People in the media discovered Trump is pretty old, and that contrast is magnified by 1000% now. Maybe we’re finally on the offensive. These last few days have had the feeling of a rolling snowball, getting bigger and faster. I don’t know if that IS what it is, but I’ll be damned if it hasn’t surprised the hell out of me.
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh47: Thanks.
Tom Q
@Captain C:
The contested convention has been their political wet dream for as long as I’ve been following politics, and they were soooo close to it. It’s killing them that Dems know better than to fall into that trap.
For those who don’t know the history: contested conventions for the party holding the White House have led to defeat 100% of the time in the two-party era. These pundits are either ignorant of that, indifferent to it, or actively desire it.
Starfish
@zhena gogolia: POC who spent a long time on the anti-Harris train are telling Harris supporters that they can’t have an emoji.
Are you going to go after the blue wave? The Beyhive Bee?
Emojis and their use like words and their use evolve. Had everyone involved in “the coconut emoji is the most racist thing ever” not been involved in many weeks of gloating about how many people they had pied, I would feel a lot more generous about this.
FDRLincoln
We are going to look back at Biden’s decision on Sunday like the Battle of Midway: the turning point.
The war is not over. There is a long slog ahead of us. But Biden’s decision, and the quick consolidation of support behind Harris, has clearly thrown Trumpworld on the defensive by robbing them of their best weapon against us: Joe’s age, just as the Battle of Midway suddenly robbed the Japanese Navy of its best weapons: their four top carriers.
Lots of fighting yet to come. But the momentum, the energy, has shifted.
We can and WILL win this. Kamala Harris will defeat Donald Trump, if we have her back.
Which we do.
Martin
@Sean: Also, of the 4 polls, the +4 and +2 are registered voter, the +3 and even are all adults. We have no likely voter polls here, and it’s the LV models that really are the only thing that matter. This is almost entirely turnout driven.
Lochnessmom
@zhena gogolia: i am with you. As a really white girl, I ain’t touching it and when I see other white people doing it I let them know the history. Use a fucking palm tree if you just have to have an emoji. Kamala’s organization can do what they want, but they have the full knowledge that most white people dont. I am in the better- safe-than-sorry camp when it comes to my personal conduct. I was raised to treat people cordially and not make them either uncomfortable or condescended to.
lamh47
@$8 blue check mistermix: The story told by Kamala is what people are using to justify the palm tree emoji and other things.
Also, I may have missed it, but I have not seen any official merch or content involving that emoji or even a coconut tree emoji. If/when they do I will take your point.
But as you know, a marginalized group reclaiming a racial slur word for themselves does not mean that use of the same word by someone outside of that group will be met with acceptance.
So again, use of those terms among mixed company may not be the reaction you expect. Which is why it is important to understand the context.
KatKapCC
@Starfish: Waves and bees have never been used as racist symbols, so far as I know.
Shalimar
@Highway Rob: We’re all Better Than Ezra now.
O. Felix Culpa
@Suzanne: Thanks. I think there may be a difference between embracing the coconut tree or palm tree–as Kamala seems to have done in honor of her mother–and using a standalone coconut image. But again, I’ll defer to members of the community.
Tony Jay
@bluefoot:
I bet it is.
Omnes Omnibus
@Starfish: Hold on, which person is anti-Harris? Being against Biden stepping away is NOT the same as being against Harris.
raven
Festivus in July!!!
zhena gogolia
@Starfish: Who has been on the anti-Harris train???
raven
@O. Felix Culpa: Which?
lamh47
@Jay: I promise you there is no need to explain what she meant by it. I actually completely understand what she meant.
What I am just making sure folks also know is that in some cases that term is considered a slur word.
I cannot control what is used or said when things go viral on the internet. Doesn’t mean that folks can’t also use the viral things to at the very least give folks some background on certain words used by a group that may or may not be accepted as a positive by every one.
Just saying you may encounter someone who says “hey man…don’t say that, dont’ you know it’s a…”
Bugboy
@Hoodie: It’s a disturbing mix of that saying about “paying a man to not understand something” and “hold my beer”…
Suzanne
@Starfish: For me, it’s more of a functional concern. She is making a fantastic splash right now on the Gen Z internet. She is building excitement and fun and joy and hope. They are having a blast with this shit. They are basically going the campaign millions of dollars of totally free media. The Kamala campaign is eating this up right now.
And this is the cohort where Biden was struggling the most.
Meaning shifts quickly, and I look for intent, personally. If someone means to be racist and offensive, then I’m sure they can do that with or without an emoji. But if they’re intending to be celebratory and signal to each other and build a pro-Kamala vibe…. cool. I’m sure this is more of an age divide than anything else.
Doc Sardonic
@Starfish: yeah….tell me how well the N word has adapted and how comfortable you are in using it mixed groups if you are white.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
This. Context and intent matter.
Captain C
@Tom Q:
I’m going with all of the above, with the first two convincing them that the leopards won’t eat their faces (even though the leopards have already shown a taste for faces similar to theirs).
O. Felix Culpa
@raven: If you’re asking about which community decides, I mean the community to which the slur applies. They get to reappropriate it for general use, or not, as the case may be. If Kamala adopts or accepts the image as part of her campaign, then fine. It’s available to us all.
WereBear
@Captain C: Show me the media personality who got the job through stellar reporting.
That’s how Dan Rather got his job. But now, it’s all Tucker Carlson level nepo-babies.
#NotAllTrustFundBabies
UncleEbeneezer
I have several S. Asian students and I’m sure as hell not gonna make any coconut references around them. Kamala’s story is endearing and she can obviously decide for herself what is/n’t offensive to her, but seeing as it is sometimes a term of derision, I’ll pass. There’s plenty of other ways I can show my support/love for Harris. There will be plenty of other pro-Harris memes where I can join the fun.
I have a couple Black-Asian students too and I can’t wait to see their enthusiasm for Kamala. It’s gonna be interesting to see if any of my predominantly-Asian students show any awareness/excitement about a potential President Harris. My students are mostly 9-13, so not quite politically aware yet and I try to stay away from politics completely with them*, but I’ve seen some cool Pride/Tolerance shirts (from a student with two Moms) and some “Black Girl Magic” and stuff like that, so I wouldn’t be surprised if I spy some Kamala references in the months to come, on my students of color.
* The only time I ever broke down was on Election Night 2016 when a student asked me “How could Donald Trump be President” and I told him “Because America is really freakin’ racist.”
SatanicPanic
@lamh47: I think reclaiming is the wrong word though. At least in my community the people it gets thrown at who’d want to “reclaim” it would be like Geraldo Rivera or Erik Estrada. But most of us don’t want to be like those guys, you know? I mean I don’t want to have to stop saying Jaime Escalante was a coconut. (Trying to think of more recent examples but drawing a blank). If a white person wants to insult Mexicans they don’t call us coconuts.
But I can see how it might just become something for republicans to draw attention to her skin color without calling her the N word. So maybe it’s not great.
lamh47
@$8 blue check mistermix: the BRAT term is a youth thing. they have different sensibilities than I do.
Like for example, “rizz”…when I told you I had NO IDEA what the hell that was at first, but when my goddaughter Maddie (13) explained it…the old lady in me was like…ooooh!
The whole coconut comparison to oreo thing, is what makes that term and emoji a little different for me. My Oreo is your Coconut, ya know what I mean.
In my 47 years, I have certainly been called an Oreo by family and or friends…and not necessarily taken offense. But I promise you if I was in mixed company and some non-Black person called someone an Oreo, I would not be too accepting of that circumstance.
And that’s all I’m saying about the use of the coconut emoji. Folks should just know and be aware not everyone using it comes from a good place.
banditqueen
@bluefoot: right–it’s easy–just listen…
Princess
@lamh47: Frankly, I personally wouldn’t touch it for that reason. I wouldn’t want to suggest any ambiguity or potential double meaning. FWIW the WaPo article that described its use also described the racialized meaning of the coconut by itself.
dm
I listened to most of that Ezra Klein podcast this morning (I’ve skipped all the preceding ones on related topics).
It’s weird. The first ten minutes are spent excoriating Trump. The next fifteen minutes are spent talking about how Harris has grown into a great campaigner since her campaign flared out before Iowa in 2020, and how she’s handled the fraught and difficult campaign situation of the past month flawlessly.
Great, so far! Much better than I expected, and it actually lessened my memories-of-the-2020-campaign-induced worries about Harris as a candidate (worries that had already been reduced by the “Biden should pass the baton to Harris” talk I’d been hearing for the past three weeks).
Then, with ten minutes to go, the quoted bit above shows up. Life is short, I switched to my next queued podcast at that point. If he’d stopped just before that, it would have been a worthwhile podcast.
Lochnessmom
@Starfish: where are the anti-harris people? I was definitely on the joe should stay bus, not because I doubted Harris, but because I doubt the white establishment. Thank goodness my fears have be ameliorated.
Harris was my first choice is 2020 and I was elated she was tapped for VP.
Don’t rehash the recent BJ war by implying that we wanted to keep Joe because we didn’t want Kamala. Cheese. No wonder everybody is at everybody’s else’s throats.
Miki
@zhena gogolia: Please, please, please don’t pout. Reading your criticism of the meme has encouraged me to articulate my own continuing discomfort with it – it’s not for me, a 69 yr old white woman, to decide if it’s racist.
It’s for me to decide if I’ll perpetuate a racist meme.
I won’t.
raven
@O. Felix Culpa: Yea, that’s what I meant.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Sean:
Our Failed Corporate Media Corpse didn’t “discover” shit. I still fully expect FTFNYT to *not* run 192 articles on the Orange Fart Cloud’s age.
Trivia Man
Brat Summer? Here in WIsconsin EVERY Summer is a Brat Summer. Different pronunciation and context but the written word is more ambiguous. I kept wondering why she was associated with picnic food.
Omnes Omnibus
A meme we can all accept.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Shalimar:
You officially win Teh Internetzes for today!
Harrison Wesley
@BR: Is the mattress the father?
schrodingers_cat
I am from India, the same demographic as Kamala Harris’s mother and I can say that coconut has been used a racist slur to describe people like me since long before this meme ever came into existence. I don’t see how white people can reclaim something that has never been used as a slur against them. But whatever.
The people on this blog wants to use who want to use coconut ironically, we see you. You are no different than MAGAs who want to use the N word as a joke. But I already knew that.
bluefoot
@Omnes Omnibus:
That is all kinds of awesome. Lotus for POTUS for sure!!
hueyplong
If context and intent matter, then you’re taking a chance when you put out the emoji.
Easy for me to say because I never use emojis of any kind.
Sean
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
As long as the mediasphere is acknowledging it finally, I’ll take the win. A grudging acknowledgement is still a win for Harris. I hope she leans into it hard, along with the many solid lines of attack her campaign will have.
lamh47
@lamh47:
This will probably be my last mention of it all, but all I’m saying is knowing context does matter. Once you know the context, do with it what you will. It’s a personal choice for sure.
BTW, the “word” that my people “reclaimed” I don’t use it. When my own people use it, I cringe, even though it truly is used as common language the more young you are in my community.
Damien
Just throwing this out there, as someone who doesn’t use coconuts for Kamala: maybe by allowing/encouraging it now they’re working to dilute the meaning before the right wing dickosphere can jump to 11 on the racism.
If you can’t be sure the symbology someone is using is on your side or not it becomes a lot more confusing to find allies to band together.
Maybe mental jiu jitsu.
Starfish
@KatKapCC: Are we going to let racists define which emojis we can and cannot use? Yes or no.
If the coconut emoji is racist, should we be writing letters to the people who are in charge of emojis to get it removed, or are we just going to yell at Harris supporters?
Does emojipedia approve of the racist definition imbued onto this emoji, or does it say it is related to the viral clip about her speech?
lamh47
@Omnes Omnibus: I actually saw that yesterday and I have been using the LOTUS thing ever since.
I like it.
eclare
@BR:
Walz was very good this morning on Morning Joe.
Frankensteinbeck
Ezra Klein was great at explaining the ACA back in the day. Even then his political advice was garbage. I see no reason he has any value now.
Watching MSNBC and strongly liberal pundits during this has given me a real insight about the news. They are twisted by their job. They love what they think is exciting, historic news, and will burn the house down to be able to tell the story of burning the house down – even if it’s their own house and they love it.
If Harris approves of the coconut tree meme, she is the actual minority person in question. I think that’s her call. Still, I personally will avoid it because it will sound like an ethnic slur to many.
I seem to an odd man out on this: I do not think all of this coming together was a plan. I think Biden was not going to do it and told almost no one when he changed his mind. Maybe he waited for a few days to pick a good moment, that’s it. I don’t think a plan was needed. It was obvious to me that the Democratic Party would close in lockstep around the candidate with the best poll numbers. The travesty with which Biden was abandoned by liberals on the ground and in the party alike is a very unusual event in a party that has been very much in array the last few years. Biden knows these people even better than I do, and I think it was obvious to him that the party would react this way, although I don’t think anyone anticipated the enthusiasm levels.
Miki
@raven: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🐩
UncleEbeneezer
This. And anyone not-in-that-community who says it risks the possibility that PoC will think you’re trying to be low-key racist in a too-cute-by-half way (which is definitely a thing people do). So why even take the chance? Safest bet is just to leave it alone, imo.
schrodingers_cat
@Frankensteinbeck: Coconut is an ethnic slur. See Kalakal’s comment.
David Bell
As someone who immediately got called a wanker by all the nice people on this site a couple days ago for suggesting that Kamala Harris might be a great candidate — count me in on the chorus in favor of shutting Ezra’s wanking down for good.
The goal is to beat Trump.
Kay
bluefoot
I am not sure I am going to be able to articulate well what I want to say, but regarding reclaiming slurs: For those not a part of a minority group, reclaiming slurs is a choice done in self defense. And it sucks that it’s necessary. It’s a long and often hurtful process and there isn’t homogeneity of response within a community. And even when a slur is reclaimed by a community, it doesn’t mean it’s harmless in all contexts. I would ask for people to show some sensitivity to the POC here, even if you’re going to use the coconut outside of Balloon Juice.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Martin: Our kids were raised in the MD suburbs of DC, and the WaPo was our hometown paper. Periodically the Style section would feature a front page article on some hot trend among the yutes.
Amid much eyerolling and in reasonably polite language, we were assured by our kids that the WaPo was full of crap.
Dan B
@lamh47: Thanks for the reminder about “coconut” as a slur. I’d heard Kamala’s story about her mother and put the original slur in the back of my mind. At the same time I’m thinking about how us LGBTQ+ folks turned slurs around. Queer, Queen, and several other labels used to be weaponized against us. It does take time and painful effort to do so. The latest issue is whether we should call her Kamala or Harris. I love Kamala because it’s a melodic but still powerful name. Harris, despite how a man would be referred, seems very generic – dull. This debate seems a distraction seems like a distraction from the vitally important goals of electing Democrats, or as it has become: people who represent fairness 6 equal justice.
Eyes on the prize. We can discuss the importance of details when we’ve reached the most important goals.
BTW I’m looking forward to having the discussion. Kamala Harris is not focused on, or has mentioned, what name she’d prefer. I’ll follow her example.
Suzanne
@hueyplong: I don’t emoji, either. (I was surprised the first time I typed “shit” on my phone and a suggestion came up to use the poop emoji. I was like WHUUUUUUT.) My kids love them, tho. Our text chains are hilarious.
I figure that the kids communicate in their own way, with their own cultural references that really aren’t meant to include me, and their community will police the boundaries of acceptability.
But, when I see it around the internet, I’m going to generally assume positive intent right now. That might change…. hell, the internet moves fast.
lamh47
@Frankensteinbeck:
I think it was a last minute decision. I think after getting COVID, it allowed for Biden and company to rest from the trail and just reassess.
What I do think was planned was Biden endorsing Kamala. From all reporting, good and bad, the common theme was the powers that be wanted Biden gone and were seriously going to try to bypass Kamala Harris and bring the party back to it’s all white tickets.
The big donor class was tired of the party seriously thought they could hop over MVP and expect the most consistent Dem base voters, Black voters (specifically Black female voters) to just fall inline cause “where else will they go” since they hate Trump so much.
Joe Biden has always said he considered Kamala Harris the future of the Dem party. It’s one of the reasons why she was chosen as VP. The elected Dem bigwigs (maybe Schumer, maybe Pelosi, maybe both) and other supposed allies were really going to try to push that bullshit open convention/mini-primary thing.
Joseph Robinette Biden Jr said…AHT…AHT…AHT! So soon after the letter to step back from 2nd term campaign…he said “I endorse Kamala Harris…” And the same group that backed him from the beginning and kept backing him even though he was being backstabbed by some…started working the phones!
That endorsement was planned and unexpectedly soon by those folks wanting to force him out.
O. Felix Culpa
@bluefoot: Yup, in my community the word “queer” has been similarly reclaimed. As Sister Golden Bear pointed out in another thread, not all older LGBTQ folks are comfortable with it given their history with queer as a slur, but it seems to be what the youngs in the community prefer. I’ve adapted.
Or what Dan B said above.
Jay
@SatanicPanic:
Many in the gay community have reclaimed the f-word. Many women have reclaimed the b-word and the c-word. Many in the Black community have re-claimed the n-word.
This is not universal in these communities, many gay men take offence at the use of the word Queer, and how it has been imbedded in the description of the not cis/het community.
I am not gay, I am not a woman, and I am not black. I have the decency to not use those words.
Because coconut, oreo and banana are used strictly as slurs, for not being black enough, brown enough, asian enough, and is used the same way as a slur from outside the community, they will never be reclaimed.
If Mistermix want’s to greet one of the members of his group, (who is okay with it), “hey, you old f-word, how’s it going?”, he can, I cannot and would not.
No wonder DEI training is so hated in the USA!,USA!,USA!.
Y’all may have taken the training, some of you might have even passed the test, but many seem to have never learned the fundimentals of the lessons.
ARoomWithAMoose
@bluefoot: For us white GenX males it might be good to briefly rewatch this and stop with the putting of the foot in the mouth;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yh7TVDXH8Y
(it’s the relevant bit from Clerks 2)
UncleEbeneezer
@Frankensteinbeck: I don’t think it was based on poll numbers. I think the donor assholes tried to push for a contentious convention, but Black Dem delegates quickly came together because it simply had to be Harris. Period. For a whole host of reasons beyond the $ or polls. The Party owed Black Dems big time for 2020 (and so many other victories) and they were not gonna tolerate anyone besides Harris who had already earned/deserved it and was already in the on-deck circle.
Jay
@Ryan:
Whut, no Joe the Plumber?
Villago Delenda Est
Cripes Ezra Klein is a little ultramaroon.
Geminid
@Bugboy: Ruben Gallego is on track to win his Senate race. Putting Mark Kelly on the Democratic ticket won’t hurt him and would probably help.
If a Harris/Kelly ticket wins, Governor Hobbs would appoint Kelly’s successor who (as I understand) would have to win a special election in 2026 and (I believe) an election for a full term in 2028. Those are winnable races, especially with Harris in the White House.
I want Harris to choose the running mate she thinks adds the most strength to this ticket. That may not be Kelly, but if it is I think she should pick him regardless of potential downstream problems.
danielx
Trying to think of any reason why Kamala Harris should participate in any such “exhibition”, which sounds pretty goddamned patronizing to begin with, and I got nothing. It would be a pundit wankfest in order to provide the likes of Ezra Klein with an opportunity to pick at Harris, not to mention providing Republicans with additional opportunities to make up shit about her.But hey, in Ezra’s best of all possible worlds, this would be an opportunity for the unwashed and ignorant masses to read about Ezra’s opinions! Ranks right down there with the FNYT poll of their editorial writers as to various Democratic possibilities “excitement” and “electability” measures, whatever the hell those are supposed to be. I’m only surprised they didn’t include David Fucking Brooks in that panel. Subhead on his latest effort:
No I don’t, David, even with you getting paid mid-six figures a year to tell me what to think.Can Ezra Klein be described as a wanker? Yes, and so can all those NYT editorial writers most particularly including David Brooks.Next question, please.
eclare
@Sean:
Same here. I bet Obama gives a thundering speech at the convention. I bet AOC gets a slot, too.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s excellent.
Kay
SpaceUnit
I’m just glad that folks here found something new to fight about now that we all came together behind Kamala.
ETA: I don’t particularly care for coconut. It’s not the taste, it’s the consistency.
eclare
@raven:
Hahaha, The Airing of Grievances!
Lochnessmom
@Starfish: are you getting paid to misunderstand things or is it strictly a hobby? You have just recently been putting a lot of words into a lot of people’s mouths.
As I have said multiple times, people are anxious, emotions are taut, take a breath.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: Good. Now, where are the others?
schrodingers_cat
@zhena gogolia: In India Lotus is BJP’s electoral symbol. So it has some negative association in my mind. But definitely its not a slur like coconut
I also don’t want RSS-BJP to coopt her. I also brought BJP-RSS because this meme comes from Indian WhatsApp
Most Americans don’t have the cultural fluency to understand these layers that make up identities of immigrants, in this case the daughter of immigrants. But some blithely blunder on and refuse to listen because they think they know everything..
Betty Cracker
@brendancalling: Morgan’s cash is occasionally useful, but he’s always been a clueless ass. He’s also drunk most of the time, which might be related! To his credit, he employs a chauffeur…
MisterForkbeard
Okay, I’m watching Kamala’s Milwaukee speech and it really IS fantastic.
There’s a number of great moments. When she thanks Joe Biden her voice breaks momentarily. Her delivery on the “I did <x> <y> <z>…. I know Donald Trump’s type” was really excellent.
zhena gogolia
@lamh47: I agree with this analysis.
When I heard Zoe Lofgren say “We don’t want a coronation,” I almost threw up. Luckily Joe averted that threat.
KatKapCC
@Starfish: Would you tweet a bunch of banana emojis at a Black person?
Would you tweet a bunch of moneybag emojis at a Jewish person?
Would you tweet a bunch of sandwich emojis at a woman?
And you should really ask yourself why you’re so invested in doing something that many people have expressed discomfort with because of bigoted connotations. You don’t sound much different than white people who insist it’s okay for them to use the n-word when singing along with rap songs.
dm
@UncleEbeneezer: That’s been part of the “Biden should drop out and pass the baton to Harris” talk I’ve heard for the past couple of weeks. Doing otherwise would be a slap in the face of the voters who made the Biden presidency possible in the first place.
bluefoot
@ARoomWithAMoose:
That movie brings back memories. And thanks for the laugh.
brendancalling
Everyone in this community seems to be deeply invested in tearing each other down.
It’s so… so human!
Villago Delenda Est
@zhena gogolia: I’m listening, and to be fully honest, I latched on to that word because Harris uses it herself in a specific, humorous context. I was unaware of the “brown on the outside” element, unlike with Oreo, which is very obviously an in-group term of derision. But hey, I’m a pasty white guy who never encountered “coconut” as having a similar meaning because pasty white guy and not very aware of the internal to the group cultural meaning.
I’m still listening and I do hear you, though.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t know Omnes. I was told repeatedly the “big donors” didn’t support Harris and had a double half twist plot to shut her out. Whoever told me that probably isn’t reliable going forward.
Lochnessmom
@David Bell: cheese and crackers, NOBODY THOUGHT KAMALA WOULD BE A BAD CANDIDATE. We smelled something really hinky and we were both anxious and alarmed that people were just making shit up out of whole cloth about a man many of us feel has been the best president of our lifetimes. We already voted for Kamala to be president by voting for an 81-year-old. Swear to goodness we need some fucking venn diagrams.
Jackie
@Sean: Is this what you’re referring to? I posted this earlier today in one of the many threads ago:
eclare
@lamh47:
I choose not to use any term that might be considered racist. That said, I had never heard that banana was a racist term, but I doubt I would ever describe a person as a banana.
louc
For the LOTR nerds out there, I love this meme.
Villago Delenda Est
Not only them, but also the vermin of the Village. OHJB timed the announcement so that the MSM was left gasping after the Sunday bloviation programing. I consider this to be a brilliant twist of the knife aimed at the minions of the billionaire parasite media owners.
Dan B
@schrodingers_cat: You have made it clear how coconut has been used as a slur. We hear you. I know how slurs have hurt me and continue to hurt people, especially young LGBTQ+ people, and how different slurs hurt other vulnerable people. And I’ll pay attention to what Kamala Harris is championing.
Central Planning
I (54 years old) didn’t think I lived a sheltered life, but this week I learned that coconuts and bananas can be used as slurs against some ethnic groups.
It’s easy to not use the emojis, and it’s easy (better?) to send Cash for Kamala as a show of support.
Villago Delenda Est
@louc: Turtledove definitely has it down solid. Great meme.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Betty Cracker:
Yeah, we don’t need cash from people like him. When people like him pony up that kind of money, they’re expecting a *lot* in return.
I know campaigns/parties never turn down money but damn there are times when they should. This is one of those times.
Villago Delenda Est
Yup, through November. Suck on it, MAGAt scum.
Princess
@Kay: Haha good luck getting them to stick with that.
SatanicPanic
@Kay: That theory did not age well
Lochnessmom
@lamh47: i think you have it pretty much right. Which was why so many of us panicked about Joe stepping down. We didn’t trust the money people who wanted to dump Harris for Generic Centrist White Man. They might not hav accomplished it, but they were gonna try. Thank Dog Joe, Kamala, and whatever confederates they trusted had better plans than us nervous nellies could envision.
Villago Delenda Est
On Saturday, I sent a $20 one time donation to OHJB.
Today, I started sending $5 a week to Kamala Harris.
eclare
@Kay:
Putting his money where his mouth is, me likey!
eclare
@SpaceUnit:
It’s like eating hair.
Villago Delenda Est
Kamala is your woman for Venn diagrams.
eclare
@MisterForkbeard:
Her expression while she says that great line is perfect, like she’s twisting a knife.
Villago Delenda Est
@Matt McIrvin: Pundits are most of the time total idiots who are less intelligent than anyone here.
Bupalos
@UncleEbeneezer: Jim Clyburn had earlier said that he favored some mini-primary thing and thought Kamala would win it. There are people who want and expect Kamala to come out of any process but believe that can be helpful. Obama may be another one. There are all kind of people here with all kinds of opinions in a difficult situation, and it’s pretty damn complex. It’s not noble champions and secret wreckers and useful idiots.
People who don’t see Biden’s decline have an understandably harder time getting past the idea that there thus must have really been some kind of dark conspiracy to get rid of Biden. They think this because they feel gaslit and can’t accept evidence that essentially no pols were coming to positively support him, that the leaders of the house and senate who count the pols were obviously part of the pressure, and the reported evidence from people like Kate Riga that she could not find a staffer in any congressional office that thought Biden could win. They knew more than we did, and if you weren’t liable to seeing the decline yourself (which is fine, people see things differently) then you needed an explanation for what looked otherwise insane.
This scenario, an evil plot of donors to affect policy by replacing the candidate, cosigned by all the leadership, supported by white people but foiled by black people… that’s pretty toxic if you stop and think about it.
rikyrah
@FDRLincoln:
I love the WWII analogy
SatanicPanic
@Jay: I don’t think it’s a matter of “reclaiming” though. Like I said upthread, my mom calls other Mexican Americans coconut. I do too. It’s a term you don’t “reclaim” because it’s never really been seen as something other people throw at us. If we wanted to reclaim a word it would “wetback”, which frankly I can’t see ever happening. At least that’s my take, I am not trying to speak for my entire community.
Central Planning
@Villago Delenda Est: I sent $100 to Joe about 10 days ago. After I got over my irritation that he was out, I waited for an official email from Kamala (ok, ActBlue) to make sure I was giving to the campaign and sent $470 to hope it showed more support than $47.
And, I sent $50 last night to The Collective PAC for them and Kamala.
That all was much more exciting than using emojis.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: And once Biden was out, I said that the big donors involved in pushing him out had better support Harris very quickly or I would suspect their motives.
eclare
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
What’s that line? If you can’t take their money and drink their liquor and vote against them the next day, you don’t belong here?
Lochnessmom
@eclare: Don’t use the word “apple” on the rez either. That’s the one I ammost familiar with from my youth.
Central Planning
@Lochnessmom: My innocence is ruined!
eclare
@Lochnessmom:
OK. Never heard that one either.
I googled, but didn’t see anything….ohhh. I get it now.
raven
@Villago Delenda Est:
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’d share a foxhole with you dudes anytime!
Lochnessmom
@Central Planning: I know, right? People suck :)
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: Back atcha. Although we didn’t dig much. We moved too often.
Lochnessmom
@eclare: actually I think it has gone more out of fashion. I don’t know what kids today would think, but 50 years ago it was a fighting word. Saw some dust ups related to that being thrown around.
dexwood
@Lochnessmom: My Native American wife hates that insult. She’s heard it from a few Pueblo relatives because she’s married to me, a white guy, and we live in the city.
The Thin Black Duke
@lamh47: I just got here.
White people gonna be white.
I’m sorry.
Warren Senders
@danielx:
“Taking the MAGA movement seriously?”
I’ve been taking it seriously since 2015 or whenever it was that this whole shitshow started. It’s a frickin’ existential threat to life on the planet and to our society. Of course I take it seriously.
Ohhhh…he means, “accept their worldview”? Naaah. All my seriousness is directed at defeating these people decisively, forever.
Villago Delenda Est
Yes.
Lochnessmom
@dexwood: exactly. Melanin-challenged people don’t recognize a lot of the undercurrent slurs and language unless they are around POC who are comfortable enough with them for a long enough time. I know a lot of NDN shorthand from when I was younger. And the first curse words I learned in grade school were all in Spanish, because those were the kids I hung with, lol.
Villago Delenda Est
@raven: If you’re sharing a foxhole with me, the situation is grim because the real grunts have been decimated. Although both of us can probably field improvise WD-1 garrotes.
suzanne
@Villago Delenda Est:
The specific wrinkle in this instance is that it’s becoming a Twitter thing — and it’s coming primarily from the KHive right now — that is specifically intended to be shared. It’s building support. So, like, using it — the right way — is good! It’s like wearing a team logo in this highly specific context.
Jared Polis made a tweet of three emojis: the coconut, the palm tree, and the American flag. Very clearly a message of support for the MVP! Very clearly referring to her “coconut tree” speech! Very clearly not a racial slur in pictograph form!
If there is anything I have learned in these years on the internet, it is that it is highly referential and weird and niche, and the kids are using it differently than their parents do. What else is new.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: Shoot, move and communicate!
raven
@Villago Delenda Est: Amen!
suzanne
@SatanicPanic: Weirdly, when I was in high school, I had a fair share of my Mexican and Mexican-American classmates use that word amongst themselves. The first time I heard it, I was floored.
Villago Delenda Est
@eclare:
Teen Vogue is infinitely superior to Tiger Beat on the Potomac.
Gvg
@eclare: I was raised so politely that I didn’t know about the monkeys and bananas slurs until I was in my 40’s and became a foster mom. Well I never liked monkeys as animals (sorry) and now I would only dress dachshunds as bananas. There is so much that I did not see when I was younger. Definitely not woke.
As for the memes and emojis…or any word, those who are mean spirited and spiteful can make anything into a slur. You do have to be careful. Given the past of coconuts, I would be extra careful of forwarding anything with one, and check the origin source. Some sources you know are bad actors right away.
I won’t use it. I will be careful laughing or approving any others version.
Betty Cracker
@Frankensteinbeck: I agree about the absence of a plan. Harris was the obvious choice. IIRC, everyone here who was in favor of Biden stepping down wanted Harris to be the nominee. She was also the top (though not unanimous) choice for Dem voters polled in the days before Biden announced he was stepping down. The open convention thing was almost 100% media wanking, and for the reason you articulated.
Kay
@Omnes Omnibus:
Was that before or after you-all decided they pushed Biden out to get rid of Harris.
It isn’t “both sides”. There was nothing to indicate that. Nothing. I think that’s important, going forward.
O. Felix Culpa
@The Thin Black Duke: Has it always been like this here, or have I been blind until recently? I’ve been a little taken aback, and I admire your grace and clarity.
TerryC
@Trivia Man: My home disc golf courses are the BRATS Red, White and Blue. BRATS = Ben, Ruth, Abby, Terry, Sheila :)
suzanne
The other one that seems to have shifted in meaning in recent months is the watermelon emoji. People are putting it in their Xhitter nyms as a sign of support for Gaza/Palestine. That one was new to me this year.
Sean
@Jackie: Yep. That’s the same blurb I saw.
eclare
@Lochnessmom:
I can understand that.
Johnnybuck
@Betty Cracker: The open convention thing was almost 100% media wanking,
Yeah, but I think some of the messaging from party leaders about “No coronation” or “mini” primary were reactions from the ugliness of the 2016 primary, and who’d want to go through that again.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay: They cannot help themselves. It’s how they really feel. It’s all visceral hatred of an other.
Bupalos
@dm: I haven’t heard it, but I really think you guys are likely missing the point of what Ezra is calling for. I know people were with the Biden age thing.
Ezra is a smart dude, takes post-truth right wing authoritarianism extremely seriously, and is thoughtful about it. He was on and on about Biden dropping out because his contacts in the Dem party are deep and wide and they were (in his telling) 100% all telling him versions of the same thing, a thing that started with “Joe Biden will not win.” He does not have exactly the same political outlook as is most common here, but he is a liberal and I think genuinely wants Trump defeated as much as the average commenter here.
Pretty sure if I go listen to that it’s going to be about Dems keeping the microphone and using it by having a process, and about Harris and the dems getting to see what works and maybe who can score at VP. If he’s leaving room for any further change in the ticket at this point I bet that’s almost theoretical. He wants to win. He wants dems to find a winning message and messenger. People need to take seriously what they weren’t able to in the Biden should go phase: that there are people who badly want to win who have a different opinion on where we are and how we do that. I think early results are that some of those differing opinions may be critical to turning this around.
schrodingers_cat
@The Thin Black Duke: How do black people like watermelon emojis, the fave among Genocide Joe afficiandos.
eclare
@Lochnessmom:
I recognize a lot of slurs directed at Black people because living in Memphis, I’m around Black people.
In a discussion here a few months ago, I also didn’t know “‘red dot” people. Took me a while to figure that out too.
dm
@Villago Delenda Est: as always (as of yesterday, at least) there’s an XKCD for that:
https://xkcd.com/2962/
Dan B
@Sean: My mood changed from crushing depression on Monday to feeling fine, beyond simply accepting the inevitable, to excited by the wave of enthusiasm today. It’s best to not get too caught up in either emotional or logical extreme. There remain many people on edge. My life has been remarkably calm despite the roller coaster of being threatened with imprisonment or incarceration in an insane asylum during the 50’s, to being thrown out of school and having death threats from the Mafia in the 60’s, the euphoria of small gay civil rights and heightened visibility in the 70’s, to the horror of AIDS in the 80’s. The roller coaster has continued. I’m glad when people around me who are well informed, or at least have no blinders, remain focused on goals that are achievable. Strategy is essential. The vast majority of Jackals seem to get that without ignoring the tug of war of emotions, both theirs and others.
Kay
@Johnnybuck:
Because they can’t. They cant’ say “we all know it’s going to be Harris so on with the coronation”
You watched what happened. Biden endorsed and that was all she wrote, as they all knew it would be.
It wouldn’t even be good for Harris if they said that. It would be all she heard from media for the next 3 months. This looks good. There’s some process and it’s w/in the rules but it’s orderly and lightening fast. But it was never in doubt. She’s earned it. She handled this absolutely impossible balancing act thery stuck her with for weeks, and made it look easy. She’s talented.
UncleEbeneezer
@dm: I didn’t see that. I saw “Biden needs to step down for (candidate to be named later).” If I had seen people frequently insisting that Harris was the only choice, I would have a lot less people in my pie list. Replace-Biden advocates were astoundingly short on details of how it would go down and who would be the nominee. That’s one (of several) reasons it was so sketchy. Numerous commenters asked what the plan was, repeatedly, in every thread, and almost-never got a solid answer.
Starfish
@KatKapCC: I would not be on Elon Musk’s website where he delegates decision making to vice president Cat Turd
dm
@Bupalos: Maybe, or from what i heard before moving on, it may have been an opportunity to showcase the farm team, and give them a little attention in order to deepen the bench for the future.
But, as I said, life is short. The first 45 minutes of the podcast were great.
TerryC
@SpaceUnit: Coconut on pizza?
bbleh
@lamh47: @zhena gogolia: @Omnes Omnibus: @Kirk: @Citizen Alan: @$8 blue check mistermix: I gotta say, are we REALLY gonna make THIS an issue? Something that is working MASSIVELY in our favor because Someone Somewhere Might Be Offended? REALLY? She used the story herself — repeatedly! Come ON…
I can’t even.
(I only made it through about 1/3 of the comments, so maybe someone else has said this, but … 🙄 We have ACTUAL WORK to do ffs. This ain’t over by a long shot!)
UncleEbeneezer
@Johnnybuck: The idea that Hillary was getting a “coronation” was always really fucked up, misogyny. She earned the nomination by winning the most votes, fair and square. Seeing it pop up again to suggest that Harris is somehow being unfairly handed something, is just as vile.
Barry
@Highway Rob: ”
Jesus. You’d have thought the Toobin experience would’ve taught them all a lesson about doing that in a professional context where people can see you.
But NOOOOooOOooOOO.”
Why not? Shorting their mouths off with no knowledge is the way to professional success.
What always amazes me is how fast Klein, Chait, Yglesias and so many of the bloggers from the Aughts got so corrupt so fast.
Jay
@Villago Delenda Est:
It was a “coconut tree” and it’s use is the same as “did you just fall off a turnip truck?”
Coconut, by itself has a completely different meaning.
bbleh
@Villago Delenda Est: oooo I like “vermin of the Village.” That has legs.
Johnnybuck
@Kay: I agree. There was a lot of talk here about the party leaders, and the donors were all in cahoots with the media to deny Harris the nomination, because of talk about mini primaries, or no coronations, or the lack of endorsements. My reply to Betty was clumsy but that’s what I meant to say.
It was all planned perfectly.
stacib
@lamh47: I made this same argument yesterday. Just because rappers toss around the word doesn’t mean that “the community” is okay with it. Like you, the word makes me cringe, and there is NO ACCEPTABLE CONTEXT that will ever make it okay.
Lochnessmom
@Kay: Stop being insufferable. Take the win graciously, for fuck’s sake. Maybe you should look into why you need every single person on this blog to acknowledge you are RIGHT at all times, even when they are not disagreeing with you. I think that is important to establish going forward.
Starfish
@Lochnessmom: Excuse me. How many people here have implied that I like to do racist things because I said an emoji is not inherently racist?
Dan B
@lamh47: I don’t use the words “my community”, LGB, use, nor do our friends. Queer and Fag still fill me with terror. At the same time I’m fine with their use to defang them. It’s still 1000% more important to have laws and rights that are fair, just, and equitable than to have a well funded language police.
I’d rather have macho straight frat boys shouting, “Leave the fags alone, assholes.” than being quiet for fear of being incorrect.
Bupalos
@dm: I went ahead and listened. The points I assumed are main ones. This is a chance for the dems to keep the microphone and drive Trump crazy by starving him of oxygen, as well as a way to find the intangibles in a VP. He’s arguing against the feeling that this process was so exhausting that Dems just want it all to go away and feel safe. He thinks the past month tested Harris and that she passed with flying colors and the nom would not become in any way controversial without some massive new information emerging. Mostly a chance to sharpen up messaging, display a team, pick a VP, and most of all I think keep hold of the mic. I think it’s probably very good advice. It’s at the least a real weakness that we can’t engage with this kind of thing because of fears of disunity. I think there is actually no risk of disunity in this election. I thought it was obvious before and we just got a huge datapoint on that.
dm
@UncleEbeneezer: Well, i didn’t hang out in the comments here because after the debate I was really depressed, and saw no point in pissing contests about what should happen. From the past couple of days here in the comments, sounds like i made the right choice for myself.
Where I did read, what I saw were: 1) maybe Joe should resign, making Harris the incumbent President? 2) Harris is the only one who could instantly inherit the $90 million or so the Biden Harris campaign had in the bank. 3) Biden should pass the baton and free Harris to be on the campaign trail daily for the next hundred days, and every day list is a day that won’t come again, 4) don’t you dare push out Biden and then knife Kamala and expect Black women to come out for generic white bread. Mostly 4.
Some concern that Harris wasn’t a very good campaigner in 2020, and had a rough start with staffing issues early in her vice presidency, plus worry about the whole “immigration czar” thing, but, aside from immigration, those things are in the past and she’s been excellent for the past year and more.
So, I think 3 was actually mistaken. Biden’s timing looks to have been impeccable. Certainly waiting until after the RNC, and just wiping that out of the news cycle.
Johnnybuck
@UncleEbeneezer: It was nonsense then, and it’s nonsense now. But the Berniebros did a lot of damage to Clinton then, and that language still persists today.
bbleh
@Dan B: this yes me too thank you
Lochnessmom
@Starfish: I didn’t know thre would be a quiz. How many?
I didn’t call you racist or infer anything. My point is to listen to the members of color on this blog and at least acknowledge they have a lifelong understanding of something breing a slur. Then you can do as you wish with that information.
But don’t tell them they should not be offended by it. That is condescending.
Quiltingfool
As for the coconut memes: if our South Asian commenters tell us it’s a racist term, then it is. Meaning this old white woman will not use that term at all. No explanation or equivocation necessary.
KatKapCC
@Starfish: It’s because you are emphatically arguing against it being potentially racist when people who would be the targets of it are telling you it often is. And your phrase “inherently racist” is some weaselly shit and you know it. No one is saying the existence of a coconut emoji is racist. It’s how and when it gets used.
The existence of a knife emoji isn’t inherently violent, but if you tweeted it at someone who had just been stabbed, they might take issue with it.
Jay
@SatanicPanic:
Here we don’t have many Mexicans, lot’s of other Central Americans, and South Asians.
Here it is used by the Right, the Left, UltraFeminists, TERFs, movie buffs, even foodies against any successful and or educated South Asian or Central American to dismiss any of their opinions or advice as in “what would you know, you are just a Coconut!”, almost always by White People.
Lochnessmom
@Starfish: What the what now? I thought I replied to you insisting we all didn’t want Kamala to be president.
For the emoji thing, if commentors of color tell you that they find a historically racist thing racist, don’t argue with them. That is condescending.
O. Felix Culpa
@bbleh: Umm, this is a political discussion blog? Where we discuss things? We can multitask: discuss and work.
As for the topic at hand, I was under the impression that Democrats were the people who respected and honored marginalized communities. Given that at least five different POC in this thread have said that certain images are disrespectful, it behooves us to listen to them. Out of courtesy and respect. Now I have postcards to write. It’s off to work I go….
SatanicPanic
@suzanne: I grew up hearing it from my Mom so it’s not that weird to me. Just means someone is being a bad Mexican by acting too white. Which maybe is problematic, I dunno.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@UncleEbeneezer:
And totally predictable. It’s like they’re dusting off the Greatest Hits Collection.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kay: I am happy it didn’t happen, but there were and still are people calling for a candidate to be named later. That being said, “you all” covers a lot of people. I will take accountability for what I said. I am not responsible for what other people say.
Suzanne
@SatanicPanic: Naaaaah, I meant the other word.
Lyrebird
@lamh47:
So good to see you back on here!
I want to upvote your take!
I appreciate learning that coconut can be a slur, so I will avoid using it casually. Sen. Schatz and MVP know each other at least from their time in the Senate, and he’s posting a photo of what looks like his own self fitting into her mother’s story, so I am not going to presume to know which side of the line that might fall on. the Harris campaign team did embrace the “brat” color scheme etc fwiw.
I hope we do not shred each other over this.
Lochnessmom
As lovely as this has been it is starting to make me a tad stabby. Kid and his fiance arriving soon from Texas and I gotta help them unpack the u-haul.
Having exhausted my ability to engage circular arguments, I bid you all goodnight. Go pet your critters and tell your people you love them. Then maybe have some ice cream.
SatanicPanic
@Jay: Weird. I’ve literally never heard it from someone who wasn’t using it within community about someone who was becoming suspect by acting too white. I’ve never heard a white person say that, they’d go for something that really hurts.
hotshoe
@zhena gogolia:
Zoe Lofgren is actually my rep … ugh … I didn’t know she was secretly a dubious asshole until she chose to make that statement — fortunately for my peace of mind, by the time I called her office (early Monday) she had already come to her senses and had endorsed Kamala Harris.
Which deprived me of a chance to make an angry statement to a hapless staffer, which is all for the better I suppose.
Jay
@bbleh:
It is a polite warning, to the Juicers, who use emoji’s in social media, that a coconut, by it’s self, if you arn’t an established member of the K-Hive,
has a much different meaning than a coconut/palm tree/Americans flag string of emoji’s.
just like an eggplant, a peach, alone have much different meanings than when they are combined.
SatanicPanic
@Suzanne: Oh, yeah. I could see that, but I grew up somewhere so poor there just weren’t a lot of middle to upper class Mexican Americans to get snooty so I don’t remember hearing it.
Suzanne
@Lyrebird: The Harris team has also referenced the coconut tree memes/emojis/TikToks with their “Providing context” line on their KamalaHQ site. So they are, at least at the moment, leaning into it, as an organic expression of positivity.
There’s absolutely no consensus on this specific issue. Obviously, slurs are not okay, but this usage isn’t intended as a slur. Meanwhile, Biden lost support from the young voters in his coalition, Kamala is clearly setting their world on fire, and we’re a bunch of old people policing their language.
Suzanne
@SatanicPanic: I grew up in Mesa, AZ, in a part that was politely described as “urban”. Many of my classmates were undocumented and so some of them used that word to describe themselves to Mexican-American classmates.
SatanicPanic
@Suzanne: Oh interesting. That’s kind of OK if they were reclaiming the term.
Jay
@SatanicPanic:
This is Canada. A lot of the slurs that have been directed at you in public, at work, at school, is a hate crime here, we don’t have free speech, we have reasonable speech.
So yeah, the really obvious ones get you kicked out of school, fired or even doing jail time.
So the common racism here is subtle, not overt.
hotshoe
@Suzanne:
I’ll let the young folks settle it amongst themselves.
And by the time I catch up with their current memes and slang and emojis … they will have moved on to something else.
But I’ll do the best I can ;)
SatanicPanic
@Jay: Huh, interesting.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Eyeroller: Here’s the lotus, for those looking for an emoji: 🪷
Jay
@Suzanne:
corrected,
K-Hive and “the yutes” don’t live here.
It’s also a warning, read carefully on social media, a coconut emoji doesn’t always mean what you think it means, but a coconut/palm tree/ American Flag is probably safe.
Dan B
@schrodingers_cat: It seems futile to try to convince you that we do hear you loud and clear. Your response us that we are not listening to you because: too many reasons. Is it possible that you’re not getting much response because you’re not listening to us. There are lots other POC and immigrants here whose insights I feel are very effective, partly because they understand we aren’t perfect because we have different experiences and there are gaps. There’s a difference between understanding a point of view perfectly and “not listening”.
I believe that 99% of us here are trying to figure out what next steps will move us most effectively to having Kamala Harris and a supportive congress in place next January. Complaining that we’re “not listening” seems like a distraction. I believe we’re moving forward and listening to the best if our capabilities.
It’s puzzling to me that the caste system and Hindu Nationalism in India are so entrenched but the parallels between the political use of racism in Ameruca and the Caste system are strong. Words are string drivers of each. How we defang them is a place for more discussion.
schrodingers_cat
@Dan B: The you was generic not specific. Yes you listen as do many others. But many don’t.
Point taken, I will stop being a scold.
Jay
@Dan B:
Some do, some did not know and are more aware now, some are still tone deaf. It has been two days now since the “coconut issue” was raised.
And as we know, we have lost many Juicers over the years from others being tone deaf.
schrodingers_cat
@Dan B: Thank You.
UncleEbeneezer
Four came mostly from Black Women who were pissed about the whole effort to kneecap Biden. Not the people suggesting we replace him.
It was a response to that effort (and a warning), not part of the plan, as expressed by the people pushing Biden out. Had the ReplaceBiden people been 100% all-in for Kamala right out of the gate, it would have been a much different (and much less ugly) conversation.
Anyways, water under the bridge…
Lochnessmom
@schrodingers_cat: hey, some very vocal people ( I know and you know) will never listen. I have one such person permanently pied since the last time a Frontpager got run off. Don’t shout into the wind. A bunch of other people listen, hear, and take notice. Now I am really outta here for the night!
Steve Holmes
I think there aught to be a shout out the the young and relatively young state party chairs of North and South Carolina and Tennessee who turned out there delegates in a couple hours to pledge for Kamala. It’s hard for the individual old hacks to stay on the sidelines when the state partys are quickly pledging votes.
Liminal Owl
@brendancalling: He has similar ads all over Boston, in a Red Sox uniform etc. i found them creepy, mostly because of the Uncanny Valley effects of photomanipulation I th8nk.
catclub
Even though you think it seems impossible, It might be possible to open a second, throwaway gmail account.
Chris Johnson
@Suzanne: ‘Skibidi’. Skibidi Toilet. It’s a really weird, dumb sort of cartoon thing, very much a ‘meme’ just there to be weird and dumb. Gets turned into other things like Skibidi Biden and who knows what else. The guys in the toilets are apparently the heroes or something. It’s real weird and dumb.
Jinchi
Yeah. That’s not a Democratic donor. That’s someone who wants to buy the next administration.
Odds are they’re sending money to both sides to keep their bases covered.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@brendancalling: How’s the cat doing?
Soapdish
I’m not going to use the coconut emoji. I’m going to go with the word of the affected people here on the site regarding that.
But for the moment I’m going to grant the people using it in a non-derogatory context in the promotion of MVP some grace (esp. since MVP seems to be promoting the use of it herself which kind of muddies the waters). I’ll let my friends know that they should probably avoid the term, but it’s not a hill I’m willing to die on. Bad faith actors should most definitely be called out, tho.
As a cis white male it is 100% true that I am not the target of the slur. Does it suck if it’s’ directed towards your ethnic group? It absolutely does. Does the context and intent of the person using the phrase matter? Well, sure, but what’s the impact on those it’s directed at?
The “coconut tree” meme is energizing a very large group of people that we need in order to win the election, and I’m hesitant to overly tut-tut them (for now) *even if it’s for the right reasons* when they have good intent. We’re having to weigh the benefits of their energy and positive media exposure with the costs of a slur that many people don’t even realize is a slur. It’s difficult to worry about how much a phrase goes against DEI guidelines if DEI won’t exist come January.
My bet would be the meme has a finite shelf life on the left as more people understand that it came from a good place but can be problematic. Hopefully something just as energizing takes its place!
Here at BJ? We shouldn’t use the phrase. Let’s respect that.
As an aside: Can I still have coconut rum with pineapple juice and an umbrella?
Chris Johnson
@KatKapCC: I personally don’t believe that it’s from her Mom. I think Kamala came up with it herself.
I think she came up with it on purpose to FIGHT the original interpretation, which she has had to face all her life, quite literally.
To take her interpretation away, when she herself (or that’s my suspicion) wrote it to recontextualize what otherwise is purely a racist taunt, is like deadnaming: it’s like saying ‘no! Nobody gets to think of you or that phrase other than thinking ‘black on the outside BUT white on the inside, always will be’. And I think of it as a powerful and creative act, forever recontexualizing what was a ‘Brandon’ like negative remark, so it forever carries a little story with it about how we are part of where we came from and where we’re going.
I’m a writer. It’s BRILLIANT. I’ll never write anything as good as that, and that’s fine, leaves a lot of room for being just normally awesome :)
And ‘coconut pilled’ is the redemption arc for a lot of kids that could have been ‘red pilled’ or ‘black pilled’. Nobody gets to call them puppets of racism when their embrace of the meme (not the term, the MEME along with Kamala’s little story behind it) is the opposite of racism.
Dan B
@schrodingers_cat: Thanks for the clarification. You provide many great viewpoints and information and it seemed like those were possibly getting overshadowed by stating that people were not listening. I’ve been educated (edumacated?) by many different communities, black, feminist, latine, trans, etc. and each time felt I was the worst listener until I got enough fluency in the basics. And I was grateful for not being flamed, or at least only minor blisters.
MomSense
@Sean:
Like I tried to tell everyone, Biden was at his peak approval/polling and it was not enough to win. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I assume “Coconut” is like “Banana” which, while I am white, I’ve heard use by Asian Immigrants against Asian-Americans; you know people who were born here, native English speakers, because “bananas”do unspeakably horrible things like have good English skills, work at non-Asian owned companies, have friends who aren’t Asians, and horrors, of horrors, marry non-Asians!!! (my apologies to the women and children reading this) So, by that definition, running for President of the United States is about as coconut as it gets.
A white guy calling Harris a coconut is utterly meaningless. Leave it to a MAGA hat to fuck up an insult.
Sounds like Harris isn’t getting the registered alien vote. Tis a pity.
MomSense
I also want to expound on why I have been saying that Harris as a prosecutor against trump is so powerful. Not only does it remind voters of his sordid issues and baggage, it also provides catharsis to all of us who have been so frustrated and disgusted by how he seems to evade accountability in our Justice system.
Dan B
@schrodingers_cat: My secret wish is for a meme to appear with Kamala Harris bowling with coconuts. The pins are straight white men and bleached blondes (overlap with TCFG, natch) cowering as KH smiles as big as all get out. Audience in background cheering.
But… I’m fine if that never appears because there’s a Kamala riding a shark with a battery on its back – Sharknado, flying shark – with TCFG fleeing in terror.
I smiled, still smiling!
Chris Johnson
I should also provide context: I am perhaps sensitized to this dynamic we see here, the meme policing, because I hang around with the yoot left.
And that covers a lot of bases, but I’ll tell you one thing it includes: Russia Today, high production value, Ukraine-detracting, tankie wokescolds. Forever pushing some kind of narrative that is straight out of Moscow, occasionally being found LITERALLY staffers for RT or giving a poorly attended speech at a UN committee gushing over Russia’s benevolence, and ALWAYS tone policing, ALWAYS trying to cancel some leftist who is not with the program, usually by accusing them of being racist or sexist or some other form of ‘ist’. When I heard ‘banana’ it wasn’t over Asian people at all: it was one of these people, doing this and then calling one of his enemies ‘nanners’ and then performatively falling on his sword and making a mighty fuss over how he had been ‘sane-ist’ and begged forgiveness. All to instill in people the idea that they must always tone-police everything, especially when the people breaking the rules were against Russia.
And I never thought I’d see that shit here, and here we are.
Young kids getting all excited and posting coconut memes does not mean they are secretly racists. It’s the literal opposite. I don’t post such memes because I don’t post memes. I’m absolutely going to defend these kids. They feel hope. It’s contagious. Racists will just have to lose control of their meme (sounds like it’s more in-group being snarky about people who flirt with the mainstream, but if you get elected President you ARE the mainstream, which rather undermines the argument)
Starfish
@Lochnessmom: I am a first generation Middle Eastern American. We are white (in the US) until we get our on census category in 2030. Thank Biden! I grew up in the “other” category in the US until the form with a lot of options for college let me know I was white.
And you know we didn’t get to be white when George W. Bush puts our country of origin on the axis of evil. Our people got to sue for whiteness, and eventually in those lawsuits we got to be white in the US, while Indian American people (who also sued) did not. And Day 1 of the Trump administration was the Muslim travel ban so I am familiar with this topic.
It is annoying when people like Sarai Rao spend all their time yelling at everyone on Twitter for being racist because though Indian Americans experience some racism, they are not experiencing the most racism, and they are perpetrating some of the casteism with the caste discrimination that goes on in tech.
In discussions of race, a lot of articles are written by folks who have had extensive access to education. This includes an over-representation of Middle Easterners, some South Asians, and some East Asians.
Of course Asia is a large content, and we rarely hear from the most oppressed groups in Asia, right?
This type of tiny potatoes nonsense of being pissed at people using emojis in a celebratory way is very on-Twitter behavior, and once you leave the toxic soup of Twitter your brain detoxes from that.
But you can’t really have real conversations like that here because people want to accuse you of being a racist instead of really thinking about the topic, right?
Soprano2
@zhena gogolia: I think there’s a lot of confusion because OTOH it’s been used in a racist way against people of color, yet young Kamala supporters are using it as a sign of support for her. 🤷♀️ I’d never even heard of this until today! If they’re using it as support to turn it around on the racists then I guess that would be ok. Context means a lot. Many of them are probably like me and had never heard it used in a racist way and didn’t know it had been.
TF79
I appreciated learning here that coconut has a nasty connotation, so thanks to those who pointed it out.
I do think taking cues from the official Harris campaign is the right call. Obviously with words we have many examples where context/location/intent are massively important in driving completely different meanings, but symbols seem fewer and farther between (eggplant/peach is a good example). Something about the compactness and stand-alone nature of a symbol compared to the written word. Like a person could write a paragraph explaining the ancient use and meaning of the swastika just fine, but if they decorated their whole house with them, boy…
Manyakitty
@Quiltingfool: right. It’s just that easy. If someone tells you something is hurtful, stop it. Come ON, people.
We are all on the same side. Act like it.
Suzanne
@Jay:
Yeah, I would about eat concur with this, but over the last couple of days, any mention of “coconut tree”, in word, meme, emoji, whatever, has been met with accusations of racism. And usually from the cohort who kept asserting “Joe’s so old because Kamala’s so black”. And the reality that, like, everyone is uniting quickly and unreservedly behind Harris doesn’t seem to be leading anyone to reconsider that their worldview might be confused and inaccurate. It’s a silencing and shaming tactic. It sucks.
And, I will note, it reads like Grampa Simpson yelling at the clouds. Holy shit. The kids are having a blast, they’re building energy around the candidate, they intend a positive message. We at Balloon Juice are old. We do not drive the cultural conversation. We do not get to decide what things mean forever and ever.
Manyakitty
@Suzanne: I’m glad they’re addressing this. Very smart way to control at least part of the narrative
Just because it’s there, though, doesn’t mean I have to participate.
Soprano2
@raven: Yeah, I think we got too used to fighting.
Manyakitty
@Soprano2: hey, how’s your kitty?
Suzanne
@Manyakitty: No, no one has to participate. I read Xhitter but I don’t ever post. It’s fine. People can do what they want.
What I object to is the staggering bad faith. I think it’s toxic, and I think it’s simple. The KHive is putting “coconut” and “palm tree” emojis in their Xhitter handles because there’s a character limit. It’s like a bumper sticker. Are there bad actors out there? Of course, this is the world. But ae can figure out who means well and who means ill.
Soprano2
@Kay: They might be able to stick to that, but the Fox News and right wing radio people won’t. It’s shameful that they have to tell their reps that.
Suzanne
@MomSense:
Right?! Like…. Biden’s age was a known liability for years, people kept responding to poll questions saying that they thought he was too old to be president…. and yet, some people just could not grasp that this was a widespread opinion. It blows my mind.
Starfish
@Suzanne: Several years ago, I read an opinion article in the local paper from a local high school teacher saying that the term “Karen” was sexist when “Karen” was used for a specific type of racist white woman. I felt like this lady erased the racial aspect of what was going on to declare it sexist, but she was a high school teacher sitting there with kids who were calling all their moms and teachers Karens. It took me a couple of years to get there and understand what she was talking about, but I am so glad I did not send the letter that I had written that was opposed to her original letter.
Soprano2
@eclare: I live in white bread SWMO, where the population is at least 85% white (that’s down from 90% ten years ago). I was today years old – 63 – when I learned that a coconut emoji is used as a racist slur. As soon as I knew I got it, but I had never heard that before. Sorry, had to sing for the 7th inning stretch.
MomSense
@Suzanne:
Same.
Soprano2
@Manyakitty: I’m sorry to say that I had to help my kitty over the Rainbow Bridge this afternoon. When I came home he was lying on the couch and wasn’t interested in food at all. It was obvious to me at that point that he wasn’t going to get better, so we took the last trip to the vet. He laid in my husband’s lap the whole way there. It was so sad 😞, I’m going to miss him terribly but it was the right thing to do. He was suffering and wasn’t going to get better. I think the feline leukemia made it too hard for him to get better. The vet told me most cats with that live an average of 3-4 years, and he was in that age range.
Manyakitty
@Soprano2: oh no. I’m so sorry. Some days are almost too much to hear. How wonderful he came back home to be with you and spend his final days feeling safe and loved.
Sending you all the peace and love.
Soprano2
@Manyakitty: Thanks.
Jay
@Soprano2:
I am so sorry for your loss, but it’s never easy, and he had a good life with you.
Kayla Rudbek
@louc: I always love it when one of my favorite childhood authors is on the righteous side
TerryC
@Soprano2: I just had a long phone call with a friend whose family emigrated from India in 1971. She had never heard of the coconut slur. (Neither had I until this week, also banana and apple. I did know oreo.
Barry
@SatanicPanic: “Holy shit did Ezra read these two sentences back to himself before hitting send on this? It’s so fucking dumb. I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t realize how dumb it sounds.”
I will keep saying it – the ‘young guns’ I remember from Bush II (Yglesias, Ezra, Chait) are now middle aged corruptoids, just as bad as the standard NYT/WaPo oldsters.
Barry
@lamh47: “Hey…did you know that the coconut emoji is actually considered a racial slur? Seriously, go google the definition of coconut and pay close attention to the slang definition.”
Things change. I remember when ‘queer’ was a deadly insult.
The Lodger
@Soapdish: As long as you don’t have coconut and pineapple on a pizza. That’s just gross.