Since Minnesota Governor Tim Walz has been getting some well-earned attention for his great messaging as well as his wholesome personality, I wanted to make a few observations from the perspective of someone who is around the same age and from roughly the same area.
First, Walz went to Chadron State College (I’ve been in Chadron many times, long story) and used the GI Bill to pay for his education. (Chadron State used to be called “Nebraska State Teachers College”. If you grew up on the plains, most of your teachers went to the nearest teachers college.) He’s obviously a smart, accomplished guy, but he didn’t go to an Ivy or Berkeley/Stanford. This to me is a big deal, for two reasons. First, this is a far more humble educational background than the average DC Democrat. There’s such a gross prejudice in the major media against anyone who didn’t go to a big name school, and Walz is a walking, talking demonstration that some great people have come from places that aren’t even on the map for DC reporters. Second, East Coast reporters have no fucking clue how to deal with a smart guy who doesn’t fit their mold. Their default mode when doing Cletus safaris is to remark on the quaint habits of these people who live in places where you can’t even get a decent Negroni. I think they might pull their punches because of their discomfort.
Second, refreshingly, he isn’t a god damned lawyer who thinks they’re so fucking smart and subtle (Schiff is a good example of this, but there are many, many others). More importantly: he’s a teacher, and teachers are used to repeating their message over and over, without excessive subtlety. This is an incredibly undervalued political skill. Also, he taught on the Pine Ridge reservation, and that inspired him to go into teaching. If you teach in Pine Ridge and you decide to become a teacher after that, there’s something special about you.
Third, he won a tough district, Minnesota’s 1st, which is pretty rural and is currently R+7. He’s only the fourth Democrat/DFL candidate to hold that district since 1863.
Fourth, he rose to high enlisted rank in the Army National Guard, retiring as a Master Sergeant. That’s a perspective on military service that’s also sorely lacking in modern politics.
Finally, I don’t know how Josh Shapiro could be the pick when Walz has been loud-and-proud against vouchers, especially for rural communities where they would just bleed the already-hurting rural public schools dry.
There’s a lot more to like about Walz — though he’s not from Wisconsin or Michigan (or Ohio if you’re a dreamer), he’s got the ability to communicate with persuadable rural voters in those states.
This is long enough, and Kelly would be a fine pick, too, but I think there’s something rare in Walz that deserves a closer look.
narya
I’ve become a serious Walz fan, not least because of the lunch-for-ALL-the-kids program. Also: TEACHER!
Ivan X
Thanks for the perspective. I know nothing about the guy. I really don’t care about speculating on the VP pick, but it’s a way for me to get to know some Dems I otherwise didn’t.
Geminid
A friend and I were discussing Walz yesterday, and he agreed with the poster about how Walz’s teaching experience contributed to his direct and understandable messaging skills.
Lyrebird
Thanks, I am like @Ivan X: not wanting to speculate on the VP pick, but I am really glad to hear your perspective on Gov. Walz.
Not only bc Walz seems mighty excellent. What you wrote gives me another theory of how even really smart pundits from the midwest seem to buy into a view of the East Coast “elites” that’s really bizarre and usually also very racist… their view might be strongly shaped by the fkery of the NYT writers and their smarmy lifestyle articles, WaPo is not free of guilt here.
So. Not that my armchair commenting is so important, but you gave me a whole heap of insights packed into a succinct post!
Burnspbesq
Imagine Walz on the stump, armed with a thick folder of Vance oppo research.
Kinda makes you all tingly, doesn’t it.
Seedy Statistician
Hi! Long time lurker here. I just want to weigh in as a resident of Minnesota on one point that I don’t think gets highlighted enough: Tim Walz’s Lieutenant Governor, Peggy Flanagan.
When Walz ran for governor, he asked Peggy Flanagan to be his running mate BEFORE the primaries, which hadn’t been done before. She is a member of the White Earth Band of Ojibwe and previously was on the Minneapolis School Board and was a state representative. She has been a leader in protecting children, and helped create the first state Missing and Murdered Indigenous Relatives Office.
She also sang the sweetest tribute to Prince after he died: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJZWWpN1Wug (she starts singing Purple Rain around the 10 minute mark.)
If Walz steps down to run for the Vice Presidency, this amazing woman would become our governor.
bbleh
The more I learn the more I like. He’d be a great complement to Harris. And he’s mediagenic.
Shapiro is far less experienced and has less (or none) of what Walz has. And he’s got a serious future — he can be VP later. Kelly has astro-cred and AZ/NM, but he’s considerably less comfortable on camera.
Juju.
I’m from NC, and thought Cooper would be a good choice, but after seeing Walz in action, I think he’s the better choice between those two. I would add another bonus to having a teacher on the ticket. Walz knows how to deal with petulant children. He wouldn’t get flustered easily and he would know how to deal with the toddlers in the press. As far as Kelly goes, I’m fine with him, but worry about his wife’s health.
Kay
This is a good case, mm. Thanks. I don’t want anyone who hasn’t won a statewide election. Obviously I oppose vouchers completely – I don’t think Democrats should be promoting policy that is so far Right Texas rejected it – but if it’s true that Shapiro gives her .5 in PA that’s worth a lot. That’s tempting if you’re risk averse and I tend to be risk averse.
Someone said there’s a split in the D Party between those who went to public schools (or used public schools for their own kids) and those who didn’t and more and more I think that’s true. We could use a public schools guy, right, to go along with our public schools gal?
brendancalling
I had been leaning Kelly, but Walz has been really impressive. I don’t want Shapiro—he’s been a great governor for us here in PA, but he has the school voucher baggage. Also, he was directly involved in pressure to shut down campus protests over Gaza, including at UPenn, which isn’t even a state school.
rb
He is a gifted communicator. In particular is very strong in providing a thing voters thirst for, which is: making an unapologetically positive case for one’s agenda, inviting them onto the team.
But ALSO he is really good at pointing out when the other side is just … off. Like when you think about it, it’s pretty strange to be passionately opposed to providing breakfast for children in need.
Rarely if ever have I been as correct as I was the first time I heard him say of Trump’s plans that “these are weird ideas,” and I predicted a friend that the Harris campaign would rapidly adopt that messaging.
(I remembered also that Harris had used that word when she was asked how she would respond if Trump tried to stalk her on stage as he tried to do against Clinton, and she said she would ask him “why are you being so weird?” There is power in stating that these folks are not only shameless and frightening but also laughable.)
Regarding VP, Walz is not my first choice, but he has a lot going for him, and if they choose him I see no reason to doubt their instincts.
Aurona
To me, the top three are Shapiro, Walz & Buttigieg; I like the teaching aspect & served in the military and ‘sounds like us’ for Walz; Shapiro is also formidable, but a sharp tongue that keeps the enemies confused is great from Pete (fox news interviews); also a no vouchers guy, speaks many languages fluently/military background. But younger to match the tone of the Harris campaign. We have many good candidates who could do the job on day 1 if necessary.
Geminid
@Burnspbesq: I have seen Walz described as a “safe” pick, but he wouldn’t be so safe for J.D. Vance.
J.
Thank you for this. I knew nothing about Walz until recently. And I appreciated your take. Walz sounds like a good guy and a good choice to be VP. Though as many B-Jers have stated here, there are so many good VP choices. (I would love to see a Harris/Whitmer ticket, but I don’t see that happening.)
Jeffg166
I think it will be Walz.
$8 blue check mistermix
I forgot to add a couple other things. In 1999 he started a gay/straight student alliance at his school. And, after the Newtown shooting, his daughter asked him to do something. He changed his position. He was a hunter living in a rural district, so he had a NRA A rating at the time. His current NRA rating is F.
Also, the press is reporting that the Harris campaign has narrowed the field to Walz, Shapiro or Kelly. Given that, I’m not going to speculate or look at other candidates, since vetting 3 candidates in this compressed timeframe is a huge task for a campaign, so I’m doubting a surprise like Whitmer or Buttigieg.
JML
Walz has been a fine governor in MN. He did a really good job with the pandemic, despite catching a lot of attacks from the GOP who thought this was their opportunity to take him down and dirty him up by embracing conspiracy theories and utterly ignoring public safety. And part of what made it work for him was being very honest about what they knew and didn’t know and explaining why they thought they were doing the right thing.
I will say, Walz hasn’t solved the intractability of the GOP, which has been a problem for infrastructure. We’re way under for bonding in MN (no bill at all last session, too small in previous bienniums, having to do it in a budget year, etc) and it’s a real mess. But it’s entirely because the MN GOP thinks that refusing to negotiate or demanding they get all their other bills through in exchange for bonding is a winning strategy and they keep running it back no matter how many times they’ve lost on it. Which tells me Walz won’t be a voice pushing Dems to negotiate against themselves or yield concessions for votes they won’t actually get.
They’ve tried to go after Walz for being extremist, out of touch, etc and it just doesn’t stick because he comfortably comes off as reasonable and sensible. He’s still the popular teacher who was also the well-liked athletic coach and served in the National Guard. Lot of people know that guy in their own communities, you know?
(I’m a little disappointed in him for forgetting about higher education in his education plans for the state, but I also knew the E-12 teacher was going to care a lot more about that system than higher ed.)
owlbrick
@Geminid: What I like about Walz it that, while he appears to be a safe pick, he’s really the strongest liberal of the bunch. He uses the aw-shucks vibe of a midwestern grandpa to deliver some truly progressive policies. And we need to be considering what kind of person we want as VP, not just in case of tragedy, but also as a platform for the future of the party.
Kay
Kelly is out for me. I like Cooper if we’re reaching for NC or Walz or Shapiro if we’re not. But Shapiro will piss off teachers unions (rightfully) and the share of public school teachers we have are politically active so expect a roar of disapproval.
Mike in Pasadena
Thank you for giving all of us this info on Walz. I would not know any of it without this short piece.
Snowlan01
Proud of Chadron. . . it’s my dad’s hometown! And it really means a lot to me that we might have a Vice President from a non-elite background. And it is a plus for the Nebraska Panhandle! :-)
Leto
This is a big one for me. If you look at all the MoC who served, they’re almost all officers. Having an enlisted voice is valuable. The bill he crafted and helped pass, while a member of Congress, to get more help for PTSD sufferers was fucking huge. Add in the life long teacher, which is what my dad was so I know the eternal toil there…
Now, gonna have to deduct one enthusiasm point because he’s an artillery guy… and Army… :p
Splitting Image
I think that regardless of whether or not Walz is on the ticket, he would be a good person to park in Wisconsin to talk about all the stuff the Democrats did in Minnesota once they had control of the state.
Wisconsin voters simply must turn out this year to elect Democrats at the state level. Taking the state’s electoral votes is critical, but turfing out Scott Walker’s crew is even more critical.
theturtlemoves
Been to Chadron and Pine Ridge a few times myself, having grown up in the Black Hills. Walz sounds like several of my relatives. Be fun to hear that voice shivving Vance for the next few months.
Ukai
No complaints about Walz from this Minnesota resident.
Kay
Kelly is not fun. Let’s stay with our fun theme. Walz is fun and Shapiro seems to have the capacity to be fun. Joyful. Happy. Even funny. That’s us. Well, not me, but I’ll aspire to fun.
Joseph Nobles
Oh, Walz can communicate against vouchers! We need that rolling during the new Texas Lege session where Abbott thinks he finally has the votes to kill public education.
RevRick
@JML: Yeah, he was a football coach who in a few seasons took his team to the state championship! He’s a sports bar kind of guy.
rodwell
From what I seen; I think that Walz might be a best governing partner for Harris. He has executive experience as a governor. He can get progressive legislation with a narrow majority. Since he has been a governor, he will be good getting by in for stuff from the states in the next term. He is the same age as VP Harris, so at the end of two terms he probably will not be running for president. He will be at least 68 years old. This will open up the presidency to the next group of Democratic contenders. We have a deep bench. His communication skills will definitely be a plus against TFCG and the weird one. However, we need Harris to get elected and if her team feels they need to lock down a state, then it is either Sharpio or Cooper.
hueyplong
I also hope it’s not Kelly, but in truth I haven’t been a particularly good suggester of strategic moves lately.
BR
I like Walz from what I’ve seen.
If he is chosen I predict he will make a “gaffe” that the media will go after him for — he is clearly good at talking freely but I can tell that his rapid blunt talk could easily be taken out of context and twisted by the media into a firestorm about something or the other. Not a reason to not pick him, because his communication skills otherwise are solid.
mali muso
He’s definitely my fav in the veepstakes (caveat, of course I will support whomever MVP picks). He radiates normal and “telling it like it is”. Dunno if that helps with the groups we need to pick up, but I think he would be an effective campaigner.
hueyplong
@rodwell: As a NC resident, I’d be all in for Cooper if I was sure he could deliver the state. I’m not.
Raoul Paste
@Kay: Good point about fun. Emotions matter.
Omnes Omnibus
@Leto: You fool, he gets extra points for being artillery.
raven
Walz attained the rank of command sergeant major near the end of his service, but retired as a master sergeant in 2005 for benefit purposes because he did not complete coursework at the U.S. Army Sergeants Major Academy.
chopper
he certainly would be a good foil to vance, the wholesome regular guy vs the goofball weirdo edgelord
Aziz, light!
This may seem shallow to say, but all of Walz’ many qualities aside, he looks older than his age. Harris, in comparison, looks and acts younger than her years. I think a ticket that conveys youthfulness is our best bet for maximizing turnout.
raven
@BR: Is “fuck you pencil neck” a gaffe?
Wapiti
Small world: my dad went to Chadron for 1 or 2 years before transferring to University of Nebraska.
hueyplong
@Aziz, light!: Kind of unsure just what percentage of the younger slice of the electorate thinks, “Harris chose an oldster so I’m voting Trump, the guy who can’t control his bowels in public.”
Kay
@Joseph Nobles:
I think if working and middle class parents can be educated that the end goal on vouchers is to provide a low value voucher for every kid and the parents then purchase K-12 education they will see that they will be expected to make up the difference, so for them that means student loans.
They lose economies of scale on funding with vouchers. It won’t work. It’s a back door cut to public ed. It has to be.
prostratedragon
A bit of Olympic mockery😉 that reminds us people will see/ hear what they want to.
rodwell
@hueyplong: Even with Mark Robinson running for Governor, will be a lot of Trump/Josh Stein voters? or will they just vote for Trump and skip the Governor race?
Butch
Since I live in an area of the country a lot of people have trouble finding on a map, I have to ask: what’s a Negroni?
zhena gogolia
And he’s a Lutheran!
zhena gogolia
@Butch: A cocktail made with gin, sweet vermouth, and Campari. It’s not bad.
RaflW
Trump has been weirdly obsessed with Minnesota. He campaigned here a fair bit in 2020, and has been in MN again this cycle. He seems to think the state is “in play”, I guess because in 2016 he did get kinda sorta close.
And campaigning in Duluth, one of his favored spots, does hit the WI media market (as does MSP, Rochester not as much). But one recent MN poll had him down by 10 here.
I think the Walz attention in some way gets in Trump’s craw. Good. He should waste time and resources here!
Mousebumples
@Butch: a mixed drink. I can’t remember the ingredients, but Google should know
Eta – @zhena beat me there.
frosty
Just from what he’s been saying I’m in favor of putting Walz on the campaign trail. Bonus: Sergeant in the Army National Guard! Like my son
Leave Shapiro alone! We need him in PA.
hueyplong
@rodwell: Boy, that’s the question all right. There is a school of thought that figures Trump will win narrowly and Robinson will lose narrowly because of that sliver that prefers its Trumpism in a white package.
Sorry for the downerism. Hope I’m proven wrong.
Jerry
As a resident of North Carolina, I am 100% against Roy Cooper being the VP pick based solely on when the governor leaves the state, the Lieutenant Governor becomes the acting governor. I don’t want my favorite Caniac leaving the state for even five minutes lest that asshole Mark Robinson does some horrible shit.
Butch
zhena and Mousbumples: thank you! I thought maybe it was some kind of pizza….Never heard of it here in Yooperland.
hueyplong
@Jerry: Yes. That too.
quo
@Burnspbesq:
This is so funny. The T campaign staff (the smarter ones) must have known that the Democrats had assembled oppo folders on all he shortlist R VP candidates, and that Vance’s folder was … thick.
zhena gogolia
@Butch: I didn’t know it was so in style now. It was in style in the 1970s, I remember.
But what do I know, I still make Cosmopolitans as a cool cocktail for guests.
Bugboy
Not to TMI anyone around here, but one of the first instances of my Dad and I butting heads as adults was the contention by him that no one had ever heard of the State U. I went to. My response was something along the lines of “In my field (entomology) EVERYONE knows about my State U.”. I should have added “In fact, my advisor is one Dr. Gerald R. Lanier, the entomologist responsible for developing the management plan that saved the elm trees on the National Mall just down the road in DC. That famous enough for ya, Dad?”
Years later I realized the real reason for Dear Ole’ Dad’s discomfort: he was unable to boast to his friends and acquaintances that he had a kid at an Ivy League. And I only realized that when he was complaining about how hard it is to boast to his friends and acquaintances when he can’t afford to globe-trot like they do…
Big Mango
@BR: As a 40+ year teacher; I can assure you he can deal with any gaffe….
He can appeal to a ton of people on a variety of fronts….
KatKapCC
@Seedy Statistician: That’s wonderful!
Lyrebird
@Butch: Thanks for asking – I had no clue, and I was raised in the Amtrak NE Corridor, fwiw!
Kay
What a shitty policy vouchers is for Shapiro to choose as his contrarian take. Ohio was the test case for vouchers. They have never, ever outperformed public schools in 25 years. We know a lot about vouchers already. That he apparently didn’t read any of it gives me pause. Vouchers are bad Democratic policy but they’re also wholly an ideological policy – they fail at their ostensible purpose, so much so that Right wingers no longer talk about “quality” with private schools. They now say the goal is choice for the sake of choice. There’s no quality analysis at all. It’s 100% Right wing belief systems.
RaflW
When Walz talks about what the GOP is doing to small town school districts and especially small market regional hospitals under pressure or closing, I think he has genuine potential to reach otherwise Republican voters.
He is someone who also doesn’t come off as phony when he goes out for the traditional annual MN fishing opener. He’s also a hunter, which is a nice complement to Harris’s absolutely appropriate views on gun control.
I don’t own guns but I’m fine with people possessing and using (normal) hunting rifles as well as shotguns for game birds, etc. Walz brings authenticity to these traditional pursuits (which also, I think, baffle many Ivy elites).
eta: As @Kay notes, some Dem pols still follow some Bill C. era desires to triangulate/be contrarian. Walz doesn’t do that. But his hunt & fish vibe is a nice replacement. It’s a counterpunch to Dems are (ahem) urban.
Big Mango
@hueyplong: Walz is the same age as Kamala….
teaching for 20 years ages you….
Leto
@raven: yup, which means he’s a MSGT, and that’s the correct term of address.
@Omnes Omnibus: pipe down, the non-hearing aid members are talking.
Men’s gymnastics team finals starting now. Starting off on rings, and it’s a super solid lead off performance by us.
BR
@Kay:
I think my problem with Shapiro and some of his more right-leaning positions is that either it’s that he’s a Clintonian triangulator, which I want the party to move beyond, or he actually believes in this stuff, which is just as bad.
hueyplong
@Big Mango: Yes, was responding to the post that was about appearances, as opposed to actual ages. And in these United States, appearances are kind of a thing.
It’s not really fair to ask any candidate to appear as attractive as Harris.
Bill Arnold
@Burnspbesq:
This is so funny. The T campaign staff (the smarter ones) must have known that the Democrats had assembled oppo folders on all he shortlist R VP candidates, and that Vance’s folder was … thick.
(ETA comment with wrong nym in moderation can be deleted.)
SatanicPanic
Ok but what is his position on border walz?
Kay
@BR:
You could say “vouchers for poor kids” twenty years ago when we didn’t have tons of evidence but saying it now? Milwaukee was another test case – another failure. It’s just Right wing market dogma, like Medicare Advantage. It doesn’t actually work to control costs or improve quality. It’s this weird thing where you tell people “private” and they perceive as more valuable or desirable. The reason Catholic schools worked as a system was they had a huge unpaid workforce of educated women who were barrred from doing anything other than that or nursing- nuns. They don’t have that anymore. Our local Catholic schools gets teachers who the better paying public school didn’t hire.
RaflW
@rodwell: I also think Walz is probably not ambitious enough to have ever really thought to seek the presidency. And that is no slag on him as a leader whatsoever. I really like that he’s a humble servant leader.
But it also speaks IMO to how he’d be as Veep. Extremely capable, supporting of Harris, while not seeking limelight to position himself for ’28 or ’32.
rodwell
@Jerry: This is a good point. Mark Robinson is the type to performance cruelty on somebody, thinking it might be good for his election.
Leto
@RaflW: per his wiki page:
I think this is a big positive. Shows that he’s willing change his position when new information becomes available, as well as they can’t paint him as squishy on this. It’s not just that he’s a hunter, he’s also a former artillery SNCO which means that he’s operated probably most stuff in our arsenal. He’s not someone you’re going to be able to paint as coming to “snatch all your guns”, even though they might try that tactic.
I also like that repaid all the money he received from the NRA, as well as passed meaningful legislation to try to address gun violence. Big positives.
Anyway
@Bill Arnold:
Agreed. Wonder why his supposedly shrewd campaign manager does not appear to have done any vetting after Uday and Qusay talked their dad into it.
BR
@Kay:
Did he take the voucher position to win the election or is he a long-time voucher advocate?
Scout211
Thanks for posting that. Wow. Good news from Minnesota. Since I am from California, all of this news from Minnesota is new to me. It’s so good to hear that if Walz is the VP pick, Minnesota will be in good hands
ETA: typos
KatKapCC
@Aziz, light!: It’s not like dude looked like he just crawled out of the crypt or something. People keep implying that he looks SO OLD but before I knew his age, I’d guessed him to be maybe mid-60s. Not much older than he is.
Plus, the campaign could make a thing out of it. “Tim and I have a lot of things in common. To start with: We’re the same age and we both want to pack Trump into the Europa Clipper mission to Jupiter.”
suzanne
I don’t have a strong opinion about who is the best pick strategically, but I really like Walz. He seems like the kind of guy I’d like to have a beer with. ;)
Leto
@suzanne: or a vegetarian turkey corn dog? Hmmm?
BR
@KatKapCC:
I dunno, I think the fact that people think Harris is younger than she is ends up working to her benefit, and it’s not the kind of mental idea that it’s good to correct.
rodwell
@RaflW: Yes, I think Walz will be a VP in the mode of Joe for Obama. 100% supportive in public and providing advice in private. I did not know that Walz LG is a Native American and would be elevated when Harris/Walz wins. I wonder if this would increase the Native America turnout in the states Ballon Juice is raising funds for with Four Directions.
OId Man Shadow
He looks like my grandfather did, so I already irrationally like him.
Urza
I like Walz, he’s probably the best choice of the ones talked about so far. But the press hate being lectured to and are oppositionally defiant to being taught anything.
Burnspbesq
@Kay:
The politics of vouchers in Texas have been interesting.
Most of the support has been from white folks in the diversifying Dallas and Houston suburbs who want the ability to send their kids to all-white schools, educational quality be damned. Rural areas have correctly seen vouchers as an existential threat to small public school districts. Abbott has chosen this as his hill to die on, and some of the leading opponents will no longer be in the Lege when it reconvenes next January.
your guess as to how it ultimately plays out is at least as good as mine.
suzanne
@Leto: ¿Por que no los dos?
WereBear
I have had Walz in my top 3 all along.
If he’s here to be compared to the other VP pick, he’s the most LIKEABLE.
Compare and contrast 😎
Also we need to calm the skittish white people. He’s also the best at that, to this born Midwesterner.
A Master Sergeant? Don’t we need one?
Kay
@BR:
I don’t know. The religious conservative Catholics who use the Catholic school here complain about Ohio’s vouchers now. They were sending their kids there to keep them away from public school kids and now they have the same issues with a 50% low income population that public schools always had.
Duh. Not great thinkers, that bunch. I couldn’t help rubbing it in a little in my book club. All they saw was a new source of state funding for their religious schools- they never thought past that, to some actual public school kids arriving with a voucher. Ha ha, assholes.
Jeffro
This would help! The vouchers are never worth the full cost (and there are always exceptions for charter and private schools, so that they don’t have to take special ed or ESL kids) so it’s automatically a brand new bill (and a large one at that) for parents of school-age kids to pay.
What they SHOULD do is remind each and every public school parent that they already have a “voucher”: it’s called “the right to a free and appropriate public education” and every American kid already has that.
“So parents…since you already have that ‘voucher’…how about if we all make sure our politicians fund our schools well, including paying our teachers well, and ensuring our students have quality facilities and supplies?” – generic Democratic replacement-level politician who likes winning
sky
@Snowlan01: I rarely comment here but am a resident of Chadron and instructor at Chadron State–Walz was our commencement speaker here when he was still in the house and was very impressive (speaking to a majority republican crowd). This would be a great boost for us in the howling plains of nowhere.
Chris Johnson
@Lyrebird: Same here. I don’t even want to form an opinion because Harris and her team know best, and at the same time I really like the hell out of Walz.
His legislative energy, gaining the smallest edge over the fascists and then going FIX ALL THE THINGS! is exactly what we need. We do not compromise with malefactors. We’ve got real principles and we’ve got actual reality at stake. Walz doesn’t mess about, and he’s not acting out of spite, he sees what’s necessary and then does it, like the school lunches thing.
Love that this guy is in our politics. Love discovering how deep the Dem bench is.
dmsilev
Good article, thank you. I learned a lot about Gov. Walz and am definitely impressed.
Meanwhile, on the other side, With Vance’s rocky debut, Republicans ask if Trump’s VP bet will pay off
So, apparently we have “Trump’s gut” to thank for Vance, not Trump’s idiot sons. Unless, of course, like the Titans of old, Trump devours his sons on the regular.
louc
I’m rooting for Walz because of school choice. It’s an issue that will siphon off a significant sliver of rural and even suburban white voters who aren’t happy with vouchers and the hole they’re blowing in public school budgets.
KatKapCC
@BR: Sure, but “thinking she’s younger” doesn’t mean she actually is younger. The campaign isn’t going to lie about her age, and people will have numerous opportunities to find it out. They probably already have in all of the articles after Biden left the race, because contrasting their ages was one of the biggest talking points.
Also, I won’t assume your gender, but as a woman, people thinking you are younger than you are can also be a massive annoyance and hindrance, because the younger someone perceives you to be, the more condescending and dismissive they will be toward you.
Chris
Mmm. East Coast reporters’ default response to any white heartlander that doesn’t fit their “folksy and weird but in an old-fashioned way that votes Republican and scolds Democrats and Coastal Elites for being out of touch” mold is to pretend they don’t exist, and when they can no longer do that, burn them at the stake. It’s why they hated Bill Clinton so much. They expect politicians from places like Arkansas to play their assigned role as the Hick Best Friend of the people in the Manhattan penthouses, and when they don’t, it makes them see red.
Agree completely that I’d love to see Walz on the ticket, and this only makes me want him there more. I just wouldn’t expect any pulled punches from the media, if anything the opposite.
laura
I’m pro Thus Guy!
RaflW
@dmsilev: “they said the former president said his gut had been with Vance for many weeks”
So Trump bullshits his own insiders. I don’t doubt Trump liked Vance heading into the Apprentice season, but Trump saying anything is likely to be a lie, even in small groups of his own people.
And the lack of vetting is classic Trump. He’s impulsive and thinks he knows everything and needs no advising.
BritinChicago
@SatanicPanic: Nice one!
jmh
I work in drug discovery and development. I didn’t go to an important school (Arkansas/Pittsburgh). There is this preference for people who went to MIT or Harvard or whatever. I was talking to another friend (we’re both later in our career, so we hire and manage folks as well as do research) and there is this consensus that we’d rather hire folks from the midwest or other similar places than the big schools. They are just as smart but don’t have the sense of entitlement that someone from MIT might have.
way2blue
Mike Madrid has convinced me that Mark Kelly would help Kamala shore up support from Latinos who want strong border control (c.f., https://nitter.poast.org/madrid_mike).
KatKapCC
@jmh:
I did that in high school.
West of the Rockies
I’m in CA and know nothing about Shapiro. Is he on any short list at this point? In light of Gaza, would he (being Jewish) alienate (fairly or unfairly) more voters than he would bring in? Is that a part of any calculation?
BR
@KatKapCC:
Oh I agree that people can figure out, but they may not. And as a man, I know it can be an unfair disadvantage to professional women. I don’t think it affects Harris in this case. But sadly people are shallow, and a lot of the youth enthusiasm for her I think is literally that she looks a lot younger than Biden. (I mean she is in fact a lot younger than Biden. But on the flip side she doesn’t look much older than Vance, yet she is.)
Someone was posting a quote yesterday from some random person he came across who was wearing a Harris 2024 shirt — the guy said he wants Harris to win because then North America will have the most attractive leaders of all continents. Shrug.
hueyplong
Either Trump or his party has come to regret every hire he has ever made except for maybe DeJoy. This applies even to the scum (Barr) who saved his ass.
With anyone else, folks might have started to question his executive capabilities.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
If Walz is chosen, he’ll undercut the Shillbilly’s language on elites. It doesn’t matter where he came from, compared to Walz, Vance is 100% an Ivy-league, officer class elite.
lamh47
I agree with you.
I like what I’ve seen from Walz. I freely admit I’d never heard of him before the Veep-stakes.
ETA: I actually like all the Veep candidates, but someone did point out that one of them mistakenly misprouncing Kamala’s name a time or two on the stump. Def need to work on that, but it was obviously not too bad, but still noticeable. And once on the ticket, DEF should be avoided.
NotMax
@Butch
A little seasonally early, but here ya go.
;)
BritinChicago
@RaflW: ” He’s [TFG] impulsive and thinks he knows everything and needs no advising.”
This is one of many disqualifying things about TFG. You need to know what you don’t know, to accept your own ignorance. Someone once said of Reagan: It’s not what he doesn’t know that bothers me, it’s what he knows that ain’t so. Double for TFG.
3Sice
What is the value proposition in benching someone as VP vs. continuing as an effective governor or senator?
Seedy Statistician
@Scout211: sorry about the typos and weird capitalization! I had a meeting so I didn’t proofread. :)
And yes, we’ll be in good hands.
lamh47
Harris is endorsed by border mayors in swing-state Arizona as she faces GOP criticism on immigration
brantl
@Geminid: I think any of the three of them is going to hit Vance like a wrecking ball; I think if it was Walz, a very high percentage of people are going to think “Vance had it coming.”, I don’t know about Shapiro. I think with Buttigieg, they’ll think “Well, obviously.”, I don’t know about Shapiro. I don’t like Shapiro’s stance on Israel.
Chris Johnson
@RaflW: To me him being a master sergeant speaks to that on multiple levels.
He’s Modern Army, in essence. He’ll have absolutely no problem on any level, supporting Kamala Harris and executing on her orders to the best of his ability, bringing his intelligence to bear while remaining loyal to his superior officer as any Modern Army person correctly would. His attitude will have its own influence on the executive branch and well it should.
And he will be completely up in the grill of any bad faith actors or enemies of our Constitution and country, without apology. And that’s just as important as calling them ‘weird’. He will act like he outranks them, which he does on every level not to omit morally.
Even if he doesn’t end up being the guy, we need to keep those qualities he has. There was a time when it was important to stretch and be bipartisan and represent the whims of the rightwingers, and they’ve fucked that up beyond repair, and that time is over. We have to say ‘no, we’re feeding the children’. ‘no, women aren’t your vessels and property’. ‘no, we’re not going to side with Putin’ etc etc etc.
No. Fuck you that’s why. Get better if you want it to be a negotiation, or stay fucked up if you want to continue to be electorally trampled. And God help you if you think you can get around that with a coup. You’re on your own with that one. No.
cain
@narya:
I bet he is Jill Biden’s favorite – also a teacher!
WereBear
For the first time, the South is not something the Dems are trying to appeal to.
Good.
Book:
Whistling Past Dixie: How Democrats Can Win Without the South
mvr
@Snowlan01 & MM: The area around Chadron is really cool. Fort Robinson, which is a state park, has an almost national park vibe. It is an old army fort where Crazy Horse was killed. It has many of the old buildings in which you can stay and others you can visit. It has scenic bluffs and good fishing for a variety of species.
I worked a tiny bit to preserve an area next to it from development without actually having been there. So I (a vegetarian) got invited to a Steak Fry, hosted by the family whose land was put under easement, granting public access to 6 miles of river and preserving it from development. So I went to the event and stayed at Fort Robinson. I was just amazed at the area. I returned with my spouse within a month or so because I wanted to show her the place. On that trip I was treed by a bull while returning from fishing at Soldier Creek in the adjacent National Forest. I got to watch a beautiful sunset from a pine tree I was able to reach before the very angry bull reached me.
It is of course, part of the 3rd District in an already Republican dominated state. So the Trumpy flags on various houses and ranches do detract a bit.
topclimber
@Leto: I hope his sarge vibe brings Cadet Bone Spurs bad memories of his years in a military school.
Shapiro has too many negatives with teachers and those who fight Israeli apartheid. If we need him to win PA we are f—-d everywhere.
Kelly could be good but I think Walz brings more.
NotMax
@BritinChicago
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
– Søren Kierkegaard
.
brantl
@Aziz, light!: It is shallow, but so are voters, a lot of them.
Baud
@WereBear: Georgia, Virginia, and even NC Dems would differ.
brantl
@hueyplong: Bowel control? Good point. All we need is a VP that goes around shitting on everything; but then, we had Dan Quayle, Darth Cheney, and Mike Pence going around, and basically shitting on everything.
prostratedragon
On the family background of Mr. “DEI hire” Tim Burchett:
frosty
@Leto: Ooh, Artillery. Also just like my son!
wjca
This kind of comment always amuses me. Heck, *I* went to Berkeley. Why? a) It was the local (maybe 25 miles from here) state college. b) I didn’t get into CalTech (I was aiming for an Engineering major; and knew next to nothing about the actual quality of their Engineering programs). c) My mom went there, back during the Depression. (And no, Cal doesn’t do “legacy admissions” ;-)
Sure, it’s got a great reputation now. But back then I was an ignorant high school kid.
Geminid
@Anyway: Trump may have overidden campaign managers Wiles and LaCivita when he chose Vance. They probably vetted all the prospects
Omnes Omnibus
@Leto: Yeah, jets are quiet. We have used ear protection since the ‘80s. I did more damage to my hear at pink shows than I did on the artillery.
Baud
Biden went to University of Delaware and Syracuse Law School, so that is consistent with your observation.
KatKapCC
@prostratedragon:
I mean…yes, this is what can occur when someone is biracial. Big-brained Republicans over here.
rikyrah
Walz has snuck up on me. But, I love the way that he’s led Minnesota.
The list of stuff they’ve gotten done that I just think kicks ass!
PS:
just say NO TO SENATORS
JUDGES
JUDGES
JUDGES
Jinchi
I agree that seems to be the intent, but I was also surprised to discover that Walz is only a year older than Kamala.
Kay
This is for Betty Cracker – Vance ALSO opens his mouth way too wide when he fake laughs. No one wants to see the entire inside of your mouth, freak.
Obviously DeSantis was the epitome of this weirdness but why can’t they laugh like normal people? Where do they get this?
Leto
@topclimber: during Avalune’s last negations with her school over their contract (she’s president of the administration Union), she found out that the Teachers Union absolutely did not like Shapiro. Didn’t want to endorse him, didn’t want to support him, and I’ve come to learn that it’s partially because of the school voucher support. Ofc I also thought, stfu and support him because the alternative is Doug Mastriano and that’s a total fucking non-starter right there.
I’m still Harris/Whoever, but there are some good distinctions being made between the likely candidates.
cain
I’m all in for Walz. You all wanted a wall, we got one! :)
When you need walls, you come to the Harris Walz, bruh!
Gin & Tonic
@Leto:
Lost cause on US-based NBC, but Ukraine is in the competition too. It would be nice to see some of their gymnasts.
KatKapCC
@Jinchi: Only half a year, actually :) His birthday is April 6, 1964, and hers is October 20, 1964.
(Oh hey, I just realized Kamala has the same birthday as Tom Petty. Nice. Also :( RIP)
FDRLincoln
I have been watching media clips of the various VP candidates over the last few days.
Overall I like Walz the best. He comes across as an excellent communicator, honest, genuine.
Beshear is inconsistent, in some appearances he comes across naturally, but in some he is a bit
robotic and talking-point-y.
Kelly has gravitas but isn’t as smooth as Walz. Cooper and Shapiro didn’t make much of an impression on me either way.
I really hope KH goes with Walz, with Kelly my second choice, although the senate factor puts him behind Walz for me. Beshear needs more time.
rikyrah
Did anyone see him on CNN with Tapper?
He read off all that Walz was able to do in Minnesota,
and then said some bullshyt about how would he be able to defend it against Republican attacks.
And Walz shut that shyt down…like he should run away from all they’ve accomplished.
CLAP CLAP CLAP
M31
@Bill Arnold:
hmm, what’s thicker, the oppo research folder on Vance or the stack of cash from Theil?
I think we know the answer to that
wjca
And then there’s this: the military tends to lean right by default. (Lots of reasons for that, which aren’t really relevant here.) Having one of their own on the ticket could have some of them rethinking their reflexive voting for Republicans. Especially when contrasted with candidate Bone Spurs.
There are places where that could matter. For down ballot races, even if it doesn’t shift Electoral votes.
mvr
@rikyrah: Yes, it would be foolish to name a sitting Senator from a swing or red state. One of the problems Obama had was he named too many sitting Dem Senators and then lost Kennedy to brain cancer.
I think this rules out Kelly who might otherwise be a good choice. The summary of Walz’s virtues in this thread makes me think he could be good.
Geminid
@RaflW: Trump would have liked Vance because he “made” Vance. Vance never would have won his Senate primary without Trump’s endorsement. As it was, Vance won with slightly under 33% of the vote; a weak showing.
JPL
@Baud: Harris has visited GA so much, she should buy a home here.
frosty
@zhena gogolia: OT: Our go-to for guests is a French 75: gin, lemon juice, and simple syrup topped with champagne.
Continuing the artillery theme: It’s named after the French howitzer in WWI because it supposedly knocked you flat.
FDRLincoln
Also, I like Walz as a fellow graduate of a Directional Midwest State University. (Northwest Missouri State for me, Chadron State and Minnesota-Mankato for Walz)
BR
@FDRLincoln:
Yeah, this is my take as well. I get the feeling Shapiro and Whitmer have presidential aspirations of their own. Kelly, Walz, and Cooper don’t seem to, and that’s better for Harris right now.
Kelly does have the visual but not the audio element locked down — little things like knowing how to stand and move to show confidence, the opposite of Vance. But when Kelly talks he stumbles unless he is reading talking points. Cooper seems fine but he doesn’t have a lot of energy.
I agree Beshear has been inconsistent — a bit unseasoned.
Leto
@Omnes Omnibus: sorry, I can’t hear you via my non-service related tinnitus… I spent too many years listening to 1khz test tones, as well as in-theater related stuff. We had hearing protection for the latter, but I know at the last hearing test that I had while in service, I hit the button so many times for what I thought I heard they were like, “Seriously? We didn’t put in any sounds for like the last minute” It is what it is.
SatanicPanic
@BR: if shallow voters are on our side I like our chances
rikyrah
@Aziz, light!:
But, he looks like Santa Claus!
LOL
And, I find that adorable and reassuring
FDRLincoln
@BR: Yeah. that’s my take on Beshear: unseasoned. He’s clearly got political talent, being able to win in Kentucky without sacrificing his principles, but he’s not quite ready for the national stage. I’d love to see him run for Senate to replace Turtle.
Kelly would be fine but the senate seat is an issue. Shapiro, I think has too much political baggage with the school thing and perhaps Gaza. I just don’t know much about Cooper, am trying to learn more.
Walz seems to check all the boxes for me: good on TV, smart, principled, leadership experience, can talk to people in rural diners while still being and acting like a Dem, etc.
Leto
@Gin & Tonic: I’ll just say that they’re showing them as well. They’re currently on the vault and they’re showing them. I don’t think the night broadcast will, because it’ll be the rah-rah USA time, but right now they’re trying to show most of the teams. The Ukrainians are doing well and I’m rooting for them!
TS
@dmsilev:
trump rarely listens, so I had my doubts with this discussion when I read it – probably was the family persuading him.
KatKapCC
@SatanicPanic: Right? I mean…who would you rather look at for four years?
One of my fave looks of hers, from the state dinner for Japan.
FDRLincoln
I’m a big fan of Gretchen Whitmer but I think she is wise to hold back and wait for (hopefully) 2032.
rikyrah
@Kay:
The way that muthaphucka apologized to CATS!
The complete contempt that he has for women oozes from every pore.
Leto
@rikyrah: I didn’t see it, but I hope it was some of that Midwest polite/knock your teeth in that they can bring. I remember one of his last interviews where he said “We’re building schools and infrastructure.” Hell yeah! We’re doing the hard work to lift everyone’s boats, and to position us for a better future. Jake Tapper, Assclown
FDRLincoln
@rikyrah: Vance seems like the kind of guy who would have been good frat-buddies with Boof Kavanaugh in college. . .
hueyplong
@Gin & Tonic: Is gymnastics team Ukraine’s best sport?
If not, what is? I’d like to watch them do something they’re a threat to medal in.
KatKapCC
@FDRLincoln: Agreed. She’ll only be 61 in 2032, and perhaps there might be a Cabinet position between now and then. Also I love the name Gretchen.
Leto
@FDRLincoln: she’s so damn good as well. Again, we have that deep bench which is so good, but at the same time I don’t want us to take anyone off the board because we need them all where they are. Maybe we can get big Gretch into a cabinet position if she wants? If not, that’s cool too.
We also have such diversity with our bench, which I think is invaluable. True reflection of America, and our potential.
trollhattan
@SatanicPanic: “Those Canucks know what they did!”
hueyplong
Re: No Senators. She’s going to say this every day and I’m going to agree every day.
This goes triple for purplish states like, say, Arizona.
rodwell
Also, the VP vetting process is similar to what Joe Biden did with his vetting process, which Harris was selected. He vetted a large number of candidates and elevated their profiles without even being negative on any of them. It provided national exposure to a lot of females and POC office holders that they never would have gotten otherwise. The VP process is doing the same for white males. Who heard of Tim Walz before this. I do not believe Andy Beshear is ready for the national stage, but this process will help him if he decides to run for senate and we are lucky enough to have an extreme MAGA as the opposition. It is Kentucky so it will tough, but it might be possible.
frosty
@KatKapCC: Haha! College for me, I was a late bloomer. :-)
SatanicPanic
@KatKapCC: wow that dress. So stylish. It helps that she’s clearly so smart and so comfortable in her own skin. I don’t think she’ll wear on people, at least not anytime soon. People don’t really know her but when they do they’re going to love her.
OTOH Trump projects confidence but it’s paper thin and he’s looking more like a slob than ever. If I were on his team I’d have told him to wear a better looking bandage on his ear. This sounds terrible but it reminds me of that old person you see that has comically large bandaids on their exposed body parts. Your first thought is – jeez they must really have trouble doing basic things without hurting themselves. I apologize to the olds, I’m just being real here.
Gretchen
@Kay: Interesting. The push for public school vouchers started with avoiding integration, and now it’s bringing integration to them? Boo how.
I also hope we don’t take Shapiro. The Dirt Road Democrats in Missouri are running hard against vouchers because public schools, especially rural, are already underfunded, and the people who take advantage of them already have kids in private school and just want to scoop public money. Jess Piper, head of the group, lives in a tiny rural town and challenges the voucher fans to find her a private school that would take her kid within 50 miles of her home.
I like Walz’s knowledge of rural issues like schools and hospitals.
SatanicPanic
@trollhattan: and that’s the diplomatic way of poutine it
Kay
@rikyrah:
But it gave us an opportunity to be funny! The cat lady related jokes are great.
I personally think “pro natalists” should mind their own business. Stop bothering people and asking personal questions.
Jayne
@chopper: Balls to the Walz vs Slouch to the Couch
montanareddog
Vance, like many kids of talent and ambition from flyover states, got the hell out as soon as he could and got himself an Ivy League education, and coastal elite jobs. Aren’t such kids one of the big gripes of rural conservatives? He then attained notoriety by writing a book underbussing his family and community.
Walz used his talent and ambition to serve his community as a teacher, football coach, national guardsman, local politician. If the Harris campaign chooses him, they should lean into that striking contrast.
Tradersym
Old guy on a couch with a cat!? Noooooooooooo!
matt
I didn’t put Walz’s style together with his teaching background until this thread and I agree that’s a big asset. Also I’ve seen Walz do the fast bang bang rattle things off style too, so I think he’d be good in any kind of media environment. We have to stop Shapiro from becoming the VP nominee, because at least from my sources your average California leftist is already hating on Harris for not going full death to Israel. I don’t think we can handle 3 months of full on ‘Genocide Kamala’ talk from those folks pissing on the ticket.
Kay
@Gretchen:
It isn’t racial integration here – it’s like 95% white in this county but it is economic diversity. Public schools are a reflection of the community. Our public schools have 50% low income students with all the challenges that brings to teachers and schools because our community is 50% low income. They were insulated from that. I also think they didn’t count on the fact that if your child is doing well in school you don’t switch, so they got a larger percentage of kids who weren’t doing well for all kinds of reasons.
Ohio has open enrollment between public schools so I knew this already from my work in juvenile courts. Their kids aren’t doing in well in one school so they switch to another public school – it almost never helps because the issue wasn’t school related. They have a honeymoon period in the new school and then whatever issue was blocking them in the last school re-appears. If it were as easy as switching schools we would have done it with delinquents long ago – it’s not.
Leto
@SatanicPanic: the
diaperbandage changed positions each night. It was comically large and shifting. And then all his dumbass cult members were puttingdiapersbandages on their heads in solidarity. It was just so damn weird. Bunch of diaper babies. Weirdos.Omnes Omnibus
@FDRLincoln: No, no fraternity would take someone like Vance. He’d show up at a rush function and start saying really off putting shit. By the end of the event, he would be standing in a corner by himself and even the people on the rush committee who are supposed to talk to everyone wouldn’t be blamed for leaving him there.
Gin & Tonic
@hueyplong: They have historically won the most medals in gymnastics, wrestling and track & field. The heavy favorite in the women’s high jump this year is a Ukrainian, who set the world record in that event last month.
ETA: They have not traditionally been as good in the real team sports at the Olympics: handball, water polo, basketball, field hockey.
trollhattan
Step 1: feel lousy, win medal anyway.
Step 2. fail covid 19 test.
Sheesh, what a day for him. Teammates must be on pins and needles.
Worth finding a replay of that race–one of the closest finishes you’ll ever see.
hueyplong
@Gin & Tonic: Thanks, I’ll keep an eye out. I don’t watch everything. Usually just join in when the spousal unit says something she’s watching looks good. She usually says the gymnastics look good.
SatanicPanic
@Leto: it looked like a cocaine baggie stuck to his ear. What the fuck was it supposed to be? A big absorbent bandage doesn’t seem necessary after a wound stops bleeding.
Everything with that man is just strange.
Lyrebird
@matt: I think you’re right that a Shapiro pick risks turning into 24/7 Dems in Disarray. In fact I am planning to skip any threads that spotlight him because I don’t need the grief.
The troll farms are already active sfaict, too, ready to take any real divisions and amplify them as much as possible.
A Walz or Beshear pick is more likely to pull in western or rural/coal area PA voters who are on the fence anyhow imnsho. The Dem strongholds from what little I hear are already pretty excited about Harris at the top of the ticket!
206inKY
I couldn’t possibly agree more. Walz’s teaching background is his superpower as a VP candidate. Crossing all my fingers and toes that he chooses him, but I will be happy with whoever she picks.
sdhays
@owlbrick: Yes! Of the three mentioned, Walz is the only one I feel has (had the opportunity to have) done the work to prepare for the unique job of President. Shapiro is a first-term governor and Kelly is a first term Senator.
Kelly in particular has a very thin resume for assuming the Presidency if the unthinkable should happen.
catclub
Tank killing? Artillery target shooting?
AnthroBabe
@Kay:
@Jayne: yes! And Let’s Do The Harris Walz!
Sister Golden Bear
Really good essay from Heather Cox Richardson about the political tide turning gradually and then suddenly.
These moments including American colonists turning against the British a little more than a decade after the French and Indian War, voters electing FDR after the “1920s, when it seemed as if business interests and government were so deeply entwined that it was only a question of time until the United States went down the same dark path to fascism that so many other nations did in that era’; and most recently after Dobbs “made it clear that a small minority intended to destroy democracy and replace it with a dictatorship based in Christian nationalism.” Perhaps the most relevant historical example [emphasis mine]:
prostratedragon
In noting Biden’s appointment of Val Demings to the USPS board of governors, Joyce Vance explains why it’s taking so long to get rid of DeJoy. We live in hope.
Ksmiami
@Jeffg166: we need the midwest
Quiltingfool
@zhena gogolia:
Yum. I love Cosmopolitans.
RevRick
@zhena gogolia: Lutefisk and Snickers salad!
Quiltingfool
@Big Mango: As a retired teacher, we know when someone is blowing sunshine up our skirt, and how to respond. Sometimes all it takes is a “look” and that shuts things down.
MVP has the “look.” I fell in love with her when she gave the look to Barr when he was spewing bullshit during a Senate hearing.
Kay
lowtechcyclist
@zhena gogolia:
ELCA, I hope, and not Missouri Synod or one of those.
hueyplong
@Sister Golden Bear: I’d have gone with 1857 instead of 1853. Even closer to Lincoln and the year of Dredd Scott, right after Doughface James Buchanan, in his inaugural, smirked about how the Issue was fixing to get solved.
KatKapCC
@Kay: That’s great. I hope that endorsements like these give some less-wingnutty Republicans the…permission, I guess, to vote D. In their own minds, I mean.
Sadly, for the ones unmoved by it, it’s not because they put party over country, but Trump over country. I’ve been of the belief for a long time that Trump could literally kill a baby in front of them and they’d be like “Yeah, that baby sucked!!!”
brantl
@SatanicPanic: I’m just surprised the damn thing didn’t cover his whole head.
Quiltingfool
@Kay: You are spot on regarding Catholic schools; free labor meant affordable private schools. Plus, those schools didn’t have to take students, such as disabled students or those with massive disciplinary issues.
I think people forget that not all children live in an area where there are multiple schools to choose from. My last school district served the entire county. It was a big county in geographic size, but low rural population. You have ONE choice. Vouchers take away dollars from those districts, and we have a lot of them in Missouri.
Sister Golden Bear
@hueyplong:
Sadly true. Although I suspect it can be countered by addressing it head-on, i.e. “No I don’t look as young, but 20 years of teaching does that—and I don’t regret a minute of it.”
BR
Harris’s team is on fire. Vance is going to keep flailing. It’s amazing.
Juju.
@Jerry: The swearing in/ inauguration usually takes place sometime in the first two weeks of January in NC. I’m impressed you’re so certain Josh Stein is going to win. I certainly hope so, and am doing what I can to help him win, but this is NC. It’s difficult to predict.
KatKapCC
@brantl: That would have messed up his “hair”.
Geminid
@Juju.: What do you think of the Democrat running for Attorney General in North Carolina, Rep. Jeff Jackson?
KatKapCC
Hey, this is good:
Referencing that video Musk tweeted that altered Harris’s voice.
brantl
@SatanicPanic: It’s like a dramatic flop-fall in soccer; “HE HURT ME!!!!”. What a WATB. If he was any more butthurt, he’d need a proctologist under exclusive contract.
trollhattan
119,000?!?
hueyplong
@Juju.: I’ve been disappointed too many times to be openly optimistic about much of anything in NC. Victory (of a sort) in the Great Bathroom Wars was a surprise and probably due to the NCAA deciding to fuck with their college basketball until they “got their minds right.” North Carolinians value their Duke or UNC home court NCAA tournament advantage over anything having to do with politics.
I kind of wish I were kidding.
suzanne
@Kay: Dude. Giles’ endorsement is a thing. Mesa is regarded as the most conservative large municipality in the country.
Gin & Tonic
@hueyplong: The high jumper, Yaroslava Mahuchikh, is easy on the eyes, too, if that’s your preference.
Soprano2
@Kay: That’s because the whole purpose of vouchers is a) to give wealthy parents government money to help pay for their kid’s pricey private school and b) to prop up religious schools, which will result in c) hobbling public schools.
hueyplong
@Gin & Tonic: It’s not a detriment. No reason I should be the only one in the house holding back. She was awfully excited about rugby7.
ETA: a quick google confirms. Already thinking about the wording of how she looks very much like a slightly younger version of spouse. (This was actually true back in Katarina Witt’s heyday.)
trollhattan
@Soprano2: Will add it’s also a mechanism to shunt poor kids who qualify for vouchers to charter schools, some non-profit, some for-profit, so as to avoid run-down public schools that in turn become more down-run.
lamh47
@lamh47: this is a BFD! Now will the MSM report on this???
Why, as a Republican mayor, I support Kamala Harris over Trump https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2024/07/29/mesa-mayor-republican-vote-kamala-harris/74583703007/ via @azcentral
brantl
@KatKapCC: They could have just spray-painted “hair” on a pillow-case; his followers would never know the difference….
brantl
@trollhattan: Isn’t this sort of smuggling illegal? Why hasn’t he been charged?
rikyrah
The women’s fencing came down to two Americans.
The gold medalist was a med school student
The silver medalist is at Harvard
What a fabulous
‘ What did you do this Summer?’ story for both of them
hueyplong
@lamh47: Wow. That’s awesome. Wouldn’t change a word.
p.a.
Don’t know Walz. Know more now. Sounds good. And, sadly, the “steady white fella in the room” is still a thing that resonates. Is his name pronounced like the dance, or no “t”?
Geminid
@KatKapCC: I thought former Georgia Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan’s endorsement of Kamala Harris was significant. Duncan implied he would campaign for Harris and I hope he does. Duncan could sway Republicans and Independents in Georgia, and in North Caroline as well, I believe.
The #CountryOverParty movement has a presence on social media. I do not think there are a whole lot of these folks, but they are otherwise reliable Republican voters and Thump really can’t afford to lose many of them.
Ukraine is another wedge issue for the Republican coalition. Because of Trump’s fealty to Putin it’s a character issue as well, and character is the biggest wedge issue of all for Republicans.
K-Mo
Seems like a winner. The only thing I previously knew about him was he vetoed the rideshare bill that would have helped Uber drivers get a fairer shake. That’s a negative for me, but it’s probably good for his electability in a National election that he hasn’t made an enemy of Uber and its substantial network of allies.
Citizen Alan
@prostratedragon: Republicans who turned out that way despite having truly admirable parents sicken me. Like Mitt Romney. I would give anything to be able to look Mitt Romney in the eye and tell him that George Romney would have been utterly humiliated by the greedy, pompous ass he grew up to be.
rikyrah
Sons of Killmonger & Disciple of Dark Brandon (@2Strong2Silence) posted at 8:14 AM on Mon, Jul 29, 2024:
Ari Melber & the rest of the Pod Bros that loved Bernie thought they were going to get their long sought take over of The Democratic Party after forcing Joe out. As usual black folks said “Hell No” & they big mad. Good F*** BERNIE!
(https://x.com/2Strong2Silence/status/1817911630946070936?t=dbkZFWiT8DsiUWOlf2bx8w&s=03)
grubert
No no no you can’t take our Walz!!
What’s that? The future of the world may be at stake?
Well… 🤔. Maybe..
trollhattan
@brantl: Right? Getting vibes of those Soros-bucks 747s flying the wimmens to California for their Soros abortions. How about it, Abbott?
Lyrebird
@lowtechcyclist: I don’t think a Missouri Synod or Wisconsin Synod Lutheran would agree to sponsor (be the teacher for) a gay-straight alliance club. Or endorse a female candidate for POTUS.
WereBear
@Sister Golden Bear: Awesome sauce. Thanks.
Belafon
@p.a.: It’s pronounced “Walls” from what I understand.
Juju.
@Geminid: I plan on voting for him, if that helps.
Omnes Omnibus
@Lyrebird: Sometimes the church you belong to in the Midwest is merely a function of where your parents went to church and has little to do with your political views.
rikyrah
ABOUT WALZ
Michelle_BYoung (@michelle_byoung) posted at 7:35 AM on Mon, Jul 29, 2024:
He’s got a winning combo of charisma (Rizz as the kids say) plain spokenness and a Santa Claus grandfather quality that I think is compelling. Especially to Southern & rust belt men who are sick of Trump but hesitant to vote for a woman. I don’t care who she picks but I like him
(https://x.com/michelle_byoung/status/1817901810352279641?t=Noavnz4dJaugLObbi_7xRA&s=03)
Leto
The American kid who’s a pommel horse specialist, I don’t understand how he has wrists. His wrists are like an owl’s neck. Good lord.
@rikyrah: I saw that! The silver medalist is young enough where she should be able to compete in the next few Olympics and earn golds. Great story for both of them.
rikyrah
The New York Times is the #VichyPress (@Needle_of_Arya) posted at 7:48 AM on Mon, Jul 29, 2024:
I remember when “mixed presidential ticket” meant that different regions of the country had to be balanced, typically North & South, but also sometimes Midwest & West.
But that was when presidential tickets were supposed to be all-white.
(https://x.com/Needle_of_Arya/status/1817905036896145917?t=QWLRlOyfoSRZbiUH3SaFaQ&s=03)
Kay
@Quiltingfool:
Republican “school reformers” do this thing where they show a graph with public school spending – the idea is to show it skyrocketing since the 1950s. But there was this huge civil rights movement in public schools in the 1960s and 1970s! Huge federal law! We started educating kids with disabilities. To just pretend that they don’t know where money goes when we track all of that rigorously at the federal level is so dishonest. For a while they said public school teachers had many more workplace issues than private school teachers. But no one tracks private school teachers! They could SEE the public school teacher issues because their labor unions collect the info.
4D*hiker
Re: “Walz looks old.” After the debacle of “Biden is old” and its fall out so recently in our national consciousness, I think a Walz pick actually telegraphs confidence/strength that the Democratic party chooses folks best suited for a job, rather than being in thrall to particular stereotypes, trends, or superficialities.
The more I learn about Walz the more I like him for this ticket. For the older conservative demographic, either Democrat or wavering Republican, he will be a reassuring complement to Harris and her heady promise of historic change. The youth and women voters are already wildly on board for Harris, but we need those older folks on board, too. I suspect that Walz would also appeal more to younger working class males in a way that Vance won’t, especially in the central part of the country.
Geminid
@Juju.: I was just wondering of Rep. Jackson had made an impression on you. Jackson seems like he could be a strong candidate and an asset to the ticket.
zhena gogolia
@Baud: Yes, I think this is a big factor in the NYT’s disdain.
Juju.
@hueyplong: I know you’re not kidding. I just hope the some people need killing comment, and all of the anti women comments get enough people who care about the direction this state takes out to vote. I hope all the new and younger more liberal residents actually vote and that older conservatives are outnumbered. I wish someone would ask Mark Robinson just who he thinks needs to be killed. I’m afraid I might be on that list.
rikyrah
April (@ReignOfApril) posted at 1:06 AM on Mon, Jul 29, 2024:
Would love all the folks who say they aren’t voting for Kamala because “she’s a cop (she’s not) to hear this. Trump would give Sonya Massey’s killer federal immunity. He would give Tamir Rice’s killer federal immunity. He would give George Floyd’s killer federal immunity.
(https://x.com/ReignOfApril/status/1817803851682185220?t=Z_hVf75Me3OBjWF0hNZMLg&s=03)
rikyrah
Tom Winter (@WinterForMT) posted at 2:49 PM on Sun, Jul 28, 2024:
This is an actual grift. Bitcoin billionaires are bribing senators to get them to prop up their fake money.
(https://x.com/WinterForMT/status/1817648700141007116?t=csxyodXSF3iDm_aEBWa_xg&s=03)
rikyrah
Robert Reich (@RBReich) posted at 7:01 PM on Sun, Jul 28, 2024:
Under the tax plan proposed in Project 2025, it’s estimated that a family of 4 making $100,000/year would get a $2,600 tax hike. But a family of 4 making $5 million/year would get a $325,000 tax cut.
It’s a trickle-down nightmare.
(https://x.com/RBReich/status/1817711889167589823?t=F9HEs43AeaOMZ3R58rwkPA&s=03)
zhena gogolia
@lowtechcyclist: Oh, better be. I don’t know Wikipedia doesn’t get into such detail.
ETA: Yep, Pilgrim Lutheran Church, Minneapolis, ELCA
rikyrah
Jeff (Gutenberg Parenthesis) Jarvis (@jeffjarvis) posted at 6:30 AM on Mon, Jul 29, 2024:
Elise Jordan introduces her latest focus group clip telling us it’s not her job to argue with (or fact-check) what people say. In a marketing focus group testing a new cereal, maybe. BUT THIS IS BEING MADE FOR TELEVISION. She abrogates any journalistic responsibility as an excuse to air their ignorance, unchecked. Then she give us more from her bad “right-leaning” group.
https://t.co/j3tMPuaorj
(https://x.com/jeffjarvis/status/1817885464625283567?t=d5mXJs1K8yMXTPZyWzgAWA&s=03)
rikyrah
I Smoked J.D. Vance’s Couch (@BlackKnight10k) posted at 3:53 PM on Sun, Jul 28, 2024:
The reason they’re trashing VP Harris for not having kids is that they spent 4 years betting all their chips on Hunter Biden
(https://x.com/BlackKnight10k/status/1817664604287439267?t=Z1oJRjZ1dmRO2MpSlmdAgg&s=03)
Kay
My IBEW son came for dinner last night so I asked him what he thought his coworkers thought about Kamala. He said “we think she’s good looking”. Guffaw. True!
rikyrah
Fernand R. Amandi (@AmandiOnAir) posted at 11:10 PM on Sun, Jul 28, 2024:![]()
Sadly, looks like my prediction was correct and the fix is in now in Venezuela where authoritarian dictator thug @NicolasMaduro is refusing to accept defeat despite losing by 30+ points — proving yet again that you can’t vote your way out of a dictatorship.
#VenezuelaLibre![]()
(https://x.com/AmandiOnAir/status/1817774766901653620?t=MQbYY0q0j0WJD-0hoom_Zw&s=03)
Juju.
@Geminid: I think he has a bright future in this state. If the governor opts out of running agains Senator Tillis, I would support Jackson if he decided to run.
hueyplong
@Juju.: He probably wouldn’t put me on the list, but he probably should.
rikyrah
Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) posted at 10:37 PM on Sun, Jul 28, 2024:
With a new week upon us it’s a good day to remember that JD Vance is a fierce advocate of menstrual surveillance by local police & Sheriffs Depts and says the federal power is needed to keep women from traveling across states lines for abortions. https://t.co/CmOsEt8yhk
(https://x.com/joshtpm/status/1817766374153842727?t=1jNlmUjoxlvfuQkdcHmXqA&s=03)
Geminid
@rikyrah: I think regional political differences have declined over the last few decades. I thought the 2018 midterms evidenced this. Democrats flipped 40 congresional seats that year, in states including New Jersey (3?), Pennsylvania (2 or 3), Illinois (2), Michigan (2), Virginia (3), Georgia, Kansas, Colorado, Texas (2) and California (~5). One common denominatpr was that these districts were based in the suburbs, which seem to have become more similar in culture nationwide.
hueyplong
@rikyrah: They’re pouty because Lee Atwater said they can’t say what they want to say, and they’re not 100% sure Trump has reinstated that right.
zhena gogolia
Anecdata: I just tried to buy a Harris baseball cap from the official merch store, and they were sold out.
Chris Johnson
@lamh47: You never can tell what’s going to get to people.
I know I’ve been very excited to see some folks (for instance, Harry Littman) taking on the nonsense around the Trump ‘shooting’. This is where it gets weird on a couple levels.
One, it’s literally impossible for him to have even been grazed by an AR-15 bullet, as half his ear would’ve been blown off. It’s to do with velocity of the impact, not how glancing it is. You cannot scratch or nick or cut with a bullet. Quite a few super-conservatives will know this, and so they will know Trump is outright lying to them and conning them, and that the truth whatever it is, is something else.
Secondly, and I’m not surprised the media buried this: wasn’t there something where the Trump campaign quickly ran through records they had of registered Republicans who owned guns, to find the kid’s family? I feel certain I heard that.
That is end-times shit for the gun-humpers, and they have always expected it to come from US. They figured the Democrats would compile lists of all Republicans with guns, and would come in the night to take them away, hence all the bluster and noise.
But we follow rules.
And if I wasn’t imagining things, that little detail means the Russian-controlled Trump campaign has such a list. Which would include all Republicans with guns who happen to not agree with Trump, or who sided with Haley, or who offended Junior or whatever. And it’s the Russian-controlled Trump campaign that would be coming, not for us Dems, but for the insufficiently-loyal Republicans who have guns. And you can see why they’d do it, too.
That’s a BIG deal. If Trump has such a list, that’s bad bad news for the country. Again, we’d love to disarm the gunhumpers but we follow rules. There may be such a list in the hands of the people that are in fact the gunhumpers’ worst nightmare from way back. They’ve brought it on themselves, but they’re the ones most in danger, because in any real insurrection the Trump people HAVE to take out the ‘RINOs’ first, so they need their lists and they’ll need to act all at once or the party will split like nothing you’ve ever seen, and we’ll be the bystanders. And nobody needs that shit.
Juju.
@hueyplong: I think being a never married woman of a certain age probably makes me suspect for a bunch of reasons.
tam1MI
Hopefully not dead thread, but the men’s gymnastics team just scored a bronze medal! The first time they’ve been on the podium in 16 years, and they came shockingly close to snatching the silver away from China.
Ruckus
@Leto:
Not only that but if I’m not mistaken the wound was on the head side of the ear lobe. The side between the ear lobe and the skull. The only reason to put the bandage on the outside of the ear was because whiny ass babies were wearing them.
Geminid
Ð
rikyrah
scary lawyerguy (@scarylawyerguy) posted at 6:36 AM on Mon, Jul 29, 2024:
Reporters fact check Biden to the equivalent of the ninth decimal point while Trump vomits out an ocean of lies and they shrug. This has been the problem throughout Trump’s time in the public eye – performative lying is just an accepted part of his persona.
(https://x.com/scarylawyerguy/status/1817886850842755250?t=0qK8lcfbqsZ3deKb1kKi4w&s=03)
NobodySpecial
Looks a lot like Harry Truman, very much gives me the feeling that he’ll tell the truth and they’ll think it’s hell. Also doesn’t put much in play when he leaves his current office. I approve.
David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch
@$8 blue check mistermix: you know who else graduated from State Teachers College – this guy (link)
rikyrah
@tam1MI:
CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Na. If he was at a fraternity party he would have been carried out and thrown in the middle of the street. Or at least on the sidewalk.
Tom Levenson
@catclub: Turret toss.
prostratedragon
“democracy is a process and that it’s never finished”
Rotating tag?
hueyplong
@Chris Johnson: It’s a world of too much information so I might misremember, but wasn’t there a story in 2016 about how the Russians had hacked the RNC as well as the DNC, and that they weren’t releasing Republican info, instead keeping it on hand to keep them in line? I got that impression from somewhere.
There probably aren’t any GOPer officeholders who fear Dems as much as they fear their own side.
Kent
Reportedly Shapiro went to private Jewish schools and educates his own children in private Jewish schools and one of his very major donors was a billionaire advocate of private school vouchers. So I think it is more than just taking a contrary position for political triangulation purposes. I suspect he really doesn’t value and support public education to nearly the same extent as a Walz who’s career and identity is public schools.
hueyplong
@Juju.: There are people ahead of you in line, but no doubt there are also people who think you should at least have a number.
Martin
@Big Mango: The issue is that the Harris campaign slogan is ‘We’re not going back!’. It’s aspirational about the future, and nobody is going to look at Walz and think to themselves ‘that guy represents the future’. I think he’s the best of the safe midwestern white men picks, because I think he reaches a set of voters that will help us a little bit, but the strength of this moment is in how the base has been energized, and he doesn’t help with that one bit – he hurts it.
Part of the problem here is what the democratic political class have done to the perception of this decision. To black voters that have constantly argued (correctly!) that Democrats are really a bunch of white progressives who exploit their voting base and throw crumbs back, watching this debate which amounts to an affirmative action program for midwest white men only cements all of their fears and blunts their energy and enthusiasm (Daily Show just did a segment before Biden dropped out with 6 black voters, HALF of which were voting for Trump over Biden citing PRECISELY this issue – I don’t think that’s representative but it was striking nonetheless.)
I think young people view this the same way – if the abortion debate is our upper hand this cycle, that set of policies (including access to birth control, etc.) all impact young women – especially young women of color given how this will be differentially applied – more than anyone else. And that’s who Democrats need to be seen coming through for, and right now the ENTIRE DEBATE is about how we can come through for anxious old white men. What the fuck are you doing? Did nobody listen to the black commenters here who were REALLY nervous about white progressives shoving Biden out because of what they believed they would demand after? They didn’t see Biden as particularly good to the black community, but at least he was the choice of the black community. And now, they both lost their say, and expected a bunch of party leaders and donors to kick Harris out too, and put in one these midwestern white men at the top of the ticket. And that didn’t happen, they rallied around Harris, and our reaction is “well, what if we just do the thing black voters were afraid of with the VP choice”.
Pete is the best communicator in politics on pretty much any topic. He’s in Biden’s cabinet. He’s got the experience, he’s fucking great at this, and yes he’s another midwest white guy, but he comes through for the Democratic base and everyone will recognize that. Pete would demonstrate that Democrats are serious about coming through for a different part of their base – and everyone will respect that. Whitmer would as well.
The nature of how this debate has taken place has really undercut guys like Walz because you can’t look at him independently of it any longer. If we were examining a broader set of candidates (Gina Raimondo is the only other non-safe white guy in the pool and I’ve not seen her mentioned even once, not even referenced as a bad choice – it’s like she doesn’t exist and is unworthy even of consideration) and the debate wasn’t almost exclusively centered on ameliorating the NYT Cletus Safari demographic, then you could center on Walz qualities independent of being a safe midwestern white male. But for a LOT of Democrats, all they’re going to see is the affirmative action pick now. Mission fucking accomplished, guys.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@rikyrah: Yeah, that’s not it. He thinks women are obligated by God to produce babies.. the whole be fruitful and multiply thing. He thinks it is the primary purpose for why God made women, and when we reject that, we are rejecting God. As an extra add on, he doesn’t want Muslims out reproducing non-Muslims.
Juju.
@hueyplong: Thanks for the cheerful response.
hueyplong
@Juju.: We both know who they are. Let’s disappoint them for a few election cycles in a row to calm them down.
CaseyL
@hueyplong:
Oh, I definitely remember that. I also remember the GOP Senators who went to Moscow on July 4, 2018, and how we’ve never heard any reporting on what that was all about. Maybe Putin showing them the leaked information he had on them?
And as time has gone by, and GOP descent into pure shit has accelerated, I also keep wondering what they had on those GOPers that could be bad enough to keep them in line for the destruction of whatever ethos or philosophy-of-governing they once believed in.
Then I also remember GOPers never actually believed in anything; that everything they’ve said and done – since Joe McCarthy, at least – has ever and only been to seize and hold power.
Kent
No. The end goal of vouchers has nothing to do with students.
The end goal of vouchers is to create an unaccountable public welfare program for private religious schools. To take billions of public dollars and funnel them into private hands. It is nothing more and nothing less than that. A no-strings attached welfare program for religious schools. For which they have zero accountability in terms of how those public dollars are spent.
It is all a grift. In every state in which vouchers have been rolled out, the vast majority of voucher recipients are wealthy students who were already attending private schools. Not poor kids who could otherwise not attend them.
Most importantly it means the defunding of rural public education since rural small towns don’t have viable private school options. And voucher programs are always designed to be funded out of public education dollars. If you live in some part of rural America your voucher options will be some skeezy online school or maybe some fly-by-night fundie church school operating out of a concrete windowless church basement taught by unlicensed fundie volunteer moms.
BC in Illinois
@zhena gogolia: @lowtechcyclist:
@Lyrebird: @zhena gogolia:
Yes, Walz is an ELCA Lutheran.
In 2020, the Catholics and the Missouri Synod Lutherans [Minnesota South District — VERY conservative] objected to Governor Walz’s Covid restrictions on in-person worship. You know: “continuing to keep churches closed violates the First Amendment.”
[Full disclosure: BC in Illinois (now living in St Louis County) is a retired LCMS pastor. I’m thinking of taping over one name on my “St Louis for Biden Harris” (2020) yard sign.]
[One other disclosure: for a good introduction to VP Harris’s background, get her 2019 book The Truths We Hold. I have loaned out my copy a few times, and I have two paperback copies on order to give away.]
Kay
@Kent:
Thanks. Democrats have never appreciated how supporting public education is also smart politics. Andy Beshear, who is every Democrats wonder child for Democrats in red states, won on public education – that’s why he won. It’s like every cycle we have to teach the the same lesson to them again: “people like public schools. Pundits don’t and the people you hang out with don’t but most people do”.
David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch
@NobodySpecial:
hopefully he won’t drop the big one
RaflW
@Martin: I completely disagree on this. Maybe on the most casual of lookist ‘reasons’ only. But Walz’s record is very progressive. Who cares if he’s a round-faced balding straight guy?! That’s not dictating his political philosophy at all.
MN is one of the only abortion rights & trans rights ‘refuge states’. The legislative accomplishments of this biennium in MN is far, far from ‘crumbs’. He was a football coach running a gay-straight student alliance decades ago in a small town.
You’re a Pete guy, that’s great. But don’t ascribe to Walz some waffly, manipulative centrism that is. not. him.
pluky
@Seedy Statistician: Beat me to it! Wondering who would succeed Walz were he to become VPOTUS, I am quite sure Ms. Flanagan would be just fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Flanagan
Lyrebird
Good point, and it reaches further than the midwest.
Glad Leto was able to reach you for some artilleryman ribbing.
@RaflW: He’s adorbs, he is not balding though it would not matter, and he’s got that great video with his daughter. ETA I might not be good at predicting this, because most of my fellow suburban white wimmin think I am weird, not in the Vance sense, but I think Walz – though he is not quite as handsome as Sen. Booker – will appeal very much to that demographic!
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: Remember, I’ve actually been a part of that process. Once from the outside as a potential pledge and three times from the inside.
Kent
Honestly Walz is the only candidate who has no negatives. He is all positives.
Shapiro has questionable positions on Gaza and school vouchers and has a little bit more of an elitist air to him. He’s not an Ivy Leaguer but as a Georgetown product he is Ivy-adjacent.
Kelly doesn’t seem to be a great public speaker and seems a little to centrist on labor issues. That might be more of an Arizona centrist thing, who knows. But picking him also puts the Senate at risk in 2026.
I don’t see any negatives at all with Walz. He is all positives. I can’t see anything about him that would cause any one to say “well, I like Kamala but Walz is a deal breaker” I think he is also the most genuinely progressive of the three.
KatKapCC
@Martin: “We’re not going back” is about POLICIES, not identities. It doesn’t mean “throw all straight white men into the ocean” or something. What ought to matter to people is Walz’ views and record, and it seems to me that in most, close to all, ways in that regard, he does embody “not going back”. Pro-choice, pro-LGBT, pro-gun-control, etc etc. If the Veep is someone who will unquestionably have the back of the Black female Prez, as well as the coalitions that voted her into office, then that too fulfills “not going back”.
You’re coming across like a man who thinks he knows better than everyone else on every topic. You don’t. You seem to believe that your subjective opinions are objective facts. They’re not.
zhena gogolia
@BC in Illinois: Good to know.
Ksmiami
@rikyrah: historically, the only way out of dictatorship is assassination.
Lyrebird
Loving how you put that, thank you! I hope you don’t mind that I hope WaterGirl shows this part of your comment to the Four Directions organizers, who could be totally understood if they might consider your straw man, while laughing…
As someone who has both been tasked with doing social justice education with middle-aged dubious coworkers and someone who works with young adults who think I’m Methuselah’s lil sis, I just really needed that laugh.
Chris Johnson
@hueyplong: Sure worked, didn’t it? Explains a lot.
Chris Johnson
@Martin: This is too in denial of reality for my tastes.
BillD
@sky: Visited Chadron last fall to see the museum on campus devoted to Mari Sandoz, the Nebraska-born author of “Crazy Horse,” “Cheyenne Autumn,” “Old Jules” and other great books. If you are into the history of Native Americans and the Great Plains it’s a worthwhile stop.
prostratedragon
@RevRick: Hmmm, boy!🤢
MCA1
@Kent: Superficially, he’s not particularly photogenic and as others have noted he appears a little older than his actual age. Though I’m sure he could turn both of those into assets with a quip of some sort.
There’s also the phenomenon someone else noted upthread, which is that as a plainspoken, non-coastal, non-elite Democrat who’s unabashedly liberal, he’s something of a confounding creature for the D.C. press. That could again be a strength, in that he can slide in some pretty progressive comments and policy ideas under their noses but because he’s a middle-aged white dude they don’t even notice. And he might remind Dem voters of the guy they just scuttled. But it could also lead the media to just reject him as “too folksy” or something because they just can’t relate to him. I also fear that if he makes any mistakes he could be labeled as not ready for primetime and in this environment it would stick. That’s a risk I’d take, I think, since it’s only 3 months to the election.
I think he could be a great asset campaigning in both Michigan and Wisconsin. Especially the latter, given its closeness with Minnesota generally – lots of Badger/Gopher joke material, etc. Not so much Pennsylvania, perhaps, which seems redder in the red areas and has two large metros that need to be turned out for Dems to win.
Ruckus
@Quiltingfool:
I’ve seen a drawing of her with her eyes showing flames. It looks more realistic than most.
And no, that’s not hate, it’s determination, focus. She has what it takes to be a good leader. In, concept, concern, control, determination, focus, humanity, intelligence, reasonableness.
rikyrah
@Martin:
This was good, but, I just disagree with you.
I love Secretary Pete, but a Black woman and a Gay Man.
This is from someone whose first choice in 2020 was Kamala Harris.
My Black pragmatism is up once again.
I know how much this world hates Black women. Straight up. No chaser.
Even with democracy itself on the line, I don’t underestimate their hatred of Black women.
The misogyny that I didn’t pay attention to in 2016, with regards to Hillary, I understand 10 toes down, in addition to the racism, with regards to the Vice President. From where I sit, I understand the herculian task that she faces.
As I have said before, her having to run for President like this is peak Black woman, and all that it means.
Those battleground states are going to be won or lost on the edges. We have got to have someone that can be the attack dog, and be able to do things that the Vice President, who, as a Black woman, cannot be seen doing. The edge that she’s walking on is so damn sharp.
rikyrah
@Kent:
Did you see the report about Arizona, and the budget hole blown because of vouchers?
Ruckus
@p.a.:
I’d say walls is the pronunciation.
I’ve been wrong before though……..
206inKY
@Seedy Statistician: Wow, this is extraordinary. Thank you for sharing.
206inKY
@$8 blue check mistermix: I find it very meaningful that he did this in 1999 and not a decade later.
jefft452
Im on team Waltz
Shapiro has too many down sides
Kelly? Well he is my favorite conservadem
I dont like some of his policy positions, esp with regards to unions BUT
He dosent hold the D agenda hostage and he dosent campaign as an anti-democrat democrat
Kayla Rudbek
@zhena gogolia: This Saturday I wanted to buy a MVP crochet pin at my local yarn store, where MVP is a customer as well, but they were all sold out
Juju
@hueyplong: That’s my plan.
UncleEbeneezer
The VP doesn’t set the policy agenda of the Administration. And nobody votes based on who the VP is on a ticket. So I’m fine with any of them.
Anyway
Maybe. Maybe not. Surely our crack
gossip columnists journalists would have reported Dotard overruling his campaign staff’s recommendation given how much they love conflict.There were reports that MVP had tapped Eric Holder to vet her VP prospects.
Martin
@rikyrah: I appreciate that the black community is very pragmatic with their vote. I do. And I’m not saying that Walz isn’t the pragmatic choice.
My argument is that when Democrats refuse to fight for the idea of a gay/black/latino/female candidate and just take it as an article of faith that it needs to be a midwestern white guy, that approach undermines any argument that someone like Walz IS the right candidate.
It’s one thing for the GOP to be racist and sexist, but what really gives them power is that Democrats internalize that as accurate. They don’t need to build a racist electorate to keep black candidates out of office, they just need to convince us to not nominate those candidates because we believe they can’t win.
Like, even if we make a collective decision in favor of the pragmatic candidate, don’t fuck the whole thing up by not even considering the kinds of candidates that would deliver for Democratic voters. I do really strongly believe that electorate is never ready for something new until you make them ready for it. It’s not a passive process, but an active one. We started out with an electorate that wasn’t ready for a black president and 9 months later we had an electorate that was. We did that. And if you surrender even the possibility of that by not even considering these candidates, all you signal to the base is that we won’t even entertain the idea of fighting for you.
It’s what I’ve been trying to say about the process of going through the primaries, that the process of doing it validates the result. Even if Biden wasn’t your guy, you respect that it was a democratic choice that the collective judgement is that it should be him, and you throw your weight behind him. That’s good. And it was good because in 2020 there were black women and white women and black men and an asian man and a gay man and a latino man and all of these people who do represent the base. And yeah, we wound up with the white guy, but there was a fair process in which everyone was considered. And it did help that the person who made the pragmatic call was Clyburn.
This is being set up by both parties as a change election – away from Democrats for Trump and away from exclusion based politics and policies for Harris. I think the failure by white progressives to consider a broader range of candidate based on their merits and instantly declaring that because it’s Harris we need to soothe white male feelings not only does a disservice to the democratic base, but also does a disservice to the ability to elevate someone like Walz as the best choice. This is why Democratic leadership were floating the choice to replace Biden as an open process, delegates weren’t going to be strong-armed into one candidate, people like Obama didn’t endorse so that Harris could take the statement ‘I’m the individual the party wanted’ without voters seeing it as ‘She’s the candidate George Clooney wanted’ or whatever. It validated her position as the nominee because of how it was presented. My argument is that we undermine the validity of a VP option like Walz because we’ve rejected out of hand all of these other options and declared that it has to be a midwestern white guy regardless of what that candidate can deliver for the Democratic base. And I think a recurring problem Democrats have is constantly advancing the interests of moderates who give us nothing but a couple percent in the general over the interests of the people who are giving money and time and effort to winning.
Yes, these will be decided on the margins, but we’re choosing to make the margin old white guys when the margin can be young women. There is at least as much if not more opportunity to win through them than there is through the old white guys. For all the complaints this place has about how out of touch the NYT Cletus Safaris are, holy shit do we immediately validate them as soon as it comes time to pick a candidate.
Geminid
@Anyway: Wiles and LaCivita have done a good job of keeping themselves out of the news. They are disciplined professionals who want to win and I wouldn’t expect them to leak any grievances. We may not find out their posture on this VP pick until after the election.
Martin
@RaflW: I am not arguing that Walz is a centrist. I’m arguing that the manner in which we have this debate destroys his utility of not being a moderate to fire up the democratic base.
I’m not even arguing that Pete is objectively better than Walz. I’m arguing that the way we have argued this situation has caused Pete to be a better choice because we have undermined Walz.
This is the core good-faith argument against affirmative action – that once you establish that you need to pick someone based on characteristics about them that they don’t control with merit being secondary, you give people an excuse to dismiss the merit entirely in favor of the question of whose merit counts and whose doesn’t.
This is how DEI differentiates itself. DEI doesn’t say ‘you need to hire a black woman (or midwestern white man in our case)’ it says, you can’t make that choice until all of these people are part of the consideration. If you are hiring a CEO and all you have are white men in the pool, DEI forces the board to reach out to qualified women, to qualified people of color, until they are represented in that pool of candidates, and then they choose on merit. Knowing that women and people of color, etc. were part of the consideration validates the choice if they pick the white man. If you don’t do the work of diversifying the pool of people being considered, the credibility of that choice goes DOWN, primarily among the people inside the institution – the other employees.
DEIs argument is that if you give a full and fair consideration to the full spectrum of people that your represent, that process validates your choice, even if your choice is the thing you would have otherwise chosen. And that is the problem I see with this process – Walz becomes a worse candidate for the Democratic base because the debate by excluding other women, POC, LGBTQ candidates out of hand causes that to happen.
To the broader electorate it probably doesn’t change anything, but I think Democrats are already on very thin ice in terms of failing to come through for their core voters and Democrats win not by convincing moderates – which Clinton/Kaine failed to do – but by firing up the base and getting disaffected voters sympathetic to Dems to vote. That was the core problem before Biden dropped out – nobody was fired up, turnout was on pace to be abysmal because young people don’t want to have to choose between which of their grandpas are the most out of touch with them, and that’s the single most important dynamic for Democrats to affect.
Martin
@KatKapCC: Holy shit no. It is not about policies, it is entirely about identities. The core message of this campaign is ‘we can’t trust male allies to look out for the interests of women’. It is a direct extension of the black community’s message which is that white allies will stab them in the back every time, and if the black community wants power they need to win office and deliver on it from there and it is through the Democratic Party that they have the best opportunities to do that. Black Americans do not ally with Democrats because we have the least bad policies for them, they ally with Democrats so they have the best shot at setting their own damn policies. White women are pretty damn late to this game, but they’re catching up.
And it’s not about throwing white men in the ocean. I’ve NEVER seen a black politician advocate for a policy (except that lunatic running for NC gov) that seeks to harm white people. I’ve NEVER seen a female politician advocate for a policy that seeks to harm men.
It is about who has the right to make these decisions in this country and right now the only answer to that is ‘white men’. Democrats are getting more women and POC in there, but those number lag badly. Half of the electorate is female (more than half, actually) and it about getting to a place where half of legislators are female, half of governors are female, and half of the presidents and vice presidents elected are female. That is where we should be now, should have been a century ago. If 1 candidate out of the 4 running is female, you don’t get there. We’ll know Democrats are serious about this when half the people in consideration for VP are female, roughly 5 are POC, etc. Right now 2/12 are women and every single one is white, and one is LGBTQ, and one of those 2 women has yet to be mentioned by anyone in any thread other than me (and even I only mentioned her to make this point).
Seems like just the opposite of throwing white men into the ocean.
Geminid
@Martin: You talk as if moderates are not part of the Democratic base, or are a negligible part of it. If the base is defined as people who vote for Democrats election after election, I would say that self-described moderates are half the Democratic base at least.
I say this having compared ideological self-identification with voting behavior in several states. I noticed the Data for Progress poll you cite so often as a definitive analysis of swing voters said that most of them self-describe as moderates. The authors got around this problem by redefining these people as progressives who don’t realize they are progressives, which is a very Data for Progress thing to do.
wjca
I’m not so sure about that. It feels more like he sees us as (occasionally) useful idiots. Nothing more.
Ruckus
@Martin:
I believe that you have to look at the overall population and truly understand that even a lot of people on our side are not hardcore liberals. Like most of us on this blog are.
Now I’ve never heard of this white guy we are discussing but the reality is that a lot of people on our side are NOT flaming liberals. And given how shitforbrains is rapidly mentally aging (and he is) we may get a lot/OK, a few conservative women to actually vote for Harris. I’m not holding my breath but the possibility exists. But if Harris or the dem electors demanded anyone but a white, older man, that may lose some possible votes. Hell nominating Harris may do that. The fact that she is the current VP and has a concept of what the hell she’s doing smooths, or at least should, a lot of any discussion. We are in a rather sticky situation and there may not be any reasonable, logical solution whatsoever. These are people that have won elections, discussed with the people on the ground what that means in their areas. I’m not going to second guess them and I don’t think we should. Kamala Harris has won elections in CA, is the VP, and actually talks to the people on the ground, and I assume in all the states (yes I know ass-u-me). If we all think that Kamala Harris has the chops to be president – and I do – then we should trust her to know what the hell she is doing. And I do.
Dan B
@RaflW: I can see the WaPo and NYT cletus safaris being replaced by Walz Ice Fishing expedition. I keep laughing about the elite press corps wrapped in Pillsbury Dough Boy coats, seriously toned pieces about what they believe are silly rituals and the converse – reverential tracts on the goofy stuff. At least they understood how to behave in a diner, but ice fishing hut!? Hilarieasternmost.
And it’s impossible that the dim Minnesota backwoods yokels would fool sofisticated easterners.
Dan B
@WereBear: My take is Walz and Pete are great communicators. Pete is longer form and Walz is short form. The bigger the audience the shorter the message should be to be effective. Gov. Walz seems to have an endless well of great pluses. I’d love to experience eight years of Kamala’s team skewering the white right wing extremists, laughing, and getting small ‘d’ democracy back in fighting shape. Old white guys might be confused for a short time.
Misterpuff
@Chris Johnson:
I also heard that. Am I surprised that the NRA and other gun rights orgs share their mailing lists with the GOP? No, but I bet that 2nd Amendment People would be because Numero Uno on their list: The Gov’mint shouldn’t be keeping tabs on my GodGiven Right to Bear Arms. Any organization doing so should be reputiated (of course, very few of them realize this list could compiled many different ways due to data tracking).
Balconesfault
Y’know who was also a VP who went to a state Teacher’s College?
LBJ … at the time the now Texas State University was Texas State Teachers College.
Gvg
@rikyrah: I wonder if the police want that power. A lot of guys my age would be squiked out or not even able to talk about the subject. Sure some might enjoy bullying women but….cops hate being involved in domestic disputes. This would be one after another. And families defend each other.
People won’t like if the cops are too busy checking on missed menstral cycles and are late about a house break in.
4D*hiker
Agree with KatKapCC that “not going back” refers to policies, not identities. Excellent way to clarify that point.
But I also agree with Martin that IDENTITY is a gigantic factor in elections. No politician is solely defined in a voter’s estimation by their policies. For better or for worse, it’s the whole “gestalt” of a politician that attracts or repels a voter. The whole slate of VP candidates should definitely be vetted with respect to important Democratic policy positions (which is why I think Shapiro is a “nope’” because of vouchers). Once a candidate gets over that hurdle, then IDENTITIES become increasingly the point as far as success in an election.
The Democratic party is already pejoratively labeled as the party overly concerned with “identity politics.” A Walz pick (or Kelly or Shapiro etc) for the ticket would be paradoxically against “identity politics” with respect to the shallow pejorative usage of that phrase by the GOP…..but would at the same time be proving identity politics in another way (older white male needed to reassure the moderates). We could go round and round with analyses like these forever. At the end of the day, the goal is to win. I think Harris et al will use data and pragmatism to make the best choice possible in service of that goal, unlike the dopes on the GOP side.
I don’t believe that Obama’s “President for both Blue and Red America” is a quaint, outdated ideal. Whether we like it or not, we share this country with a hell of a lot of other folks who don’t have the same philosophies about and goals for our country. If we want to win, we need to remember that. A ticket which can successfully draw voters from everywhere has the best chance, not only of winning, but for hopefully reducing the turmoil of polarization after the election.
Sally
I am loving all this enthusiasm for Gov. Walz. I spoke for him in this place a week ago. He is not only likeable, grounded, and a great communicator, but more and very importantly, will be an indispensable ally on the Hill as VP. His vast experiences in the military (check Vance), as a teacher/coach, living overseas for periods (China and Germany), as a Congressman (12 years I think), then as Governor will be invaluable to Pres. Harris. Please look him up in Wikipedia as I did and you will be surprised and impressed how much he has squeezed into his sixty years. I think he complements Harris’ strengths and weaknesses very well. As someone upthread said, it gives off a bit of the Obama/Biden vibe, even though he is the same age. Like, she has grandpa there to give her sage advice when she needs it. I think their kids might be around the same age too, great family pics, if the families want to be involved. And would never try to upstage her.
No Senators!
Oh, and PS, IVF. They had their kids late and bring Dobbs and the Repub policies into the debate as not many other men can.
Dan B
@Gin & Tonic: Ive seen a couple of Ukraine’s gymnasts on You Tube. It was on vault and they were great. One medaled or came close.
Sally
@rikyrah: Yes I like that too. Walz doesn’t run away from liberalism and his progressive achievements, he embraces them. Yes!
Sally
@frosty: I love a French 75, though I go easy on the gin.
Dan B
@trollhattan: I saw the Peaty swim on You Tube. It was exciting. There was another where the gold medalist was within a couple hundredths of a second of a world record.
Martin
@wjca: No, that’s not at all what I’m saying.
I’m not saying to pick a candidate to the left. I don’t think Pete or Whitmer are to the left of Walz. I have made ZERO expressions about the policy thoughts of these candidates other than to point out that Shapiro is maybe possibly a liability on Gaza.
Since I am once again failing to make my point. There are three groups of people here:
My argument is that for Democrats uniquely, elections are won by appealing to 3 more than 1 or 2. Not instead of 1 or 2, but if you have an opportunity to fire up 3 and make it bigger and make it more energized, that should be your starting point on a decision and you should talk yourself out of that if decide you need to shore up 2 or 1.
This is especially important because a surprising number of the most energized people in 3 do not trust Democratic leadership and donors because they are not represented among leadership and donors. Until that changes, you have to take extra steps to show that you see them, and are working in their interests, because they believe they are taken for granted (because they are taken for granted).
Note, 3 are not necessarily the most liberal parts of the party. They are the parts of the party that have the most on the line if we don’t win. They do the work because they have the most to lose.
In this debate, I would argue that Shapiro and Kelly are the best to deliver to 1, that Walz is the best to deliver to 2, and Pete/Whitmer are the best to deliver to 3. And that we should be biased toward delivering to 3 unless there is a compelling argument in favor of 2 or 1. I haven’t heard that compelling argument.
Additionally I’m arguing that by abandoning entirely any consideration for delivering on 3, we are feeding directly into that distrust of the democratic establishment that we are taking them for granted. Again, you do not need to pick a black (etc) VP to keep the energy of the base going, you just need to consider one. So long as you are fairly considering one, they will get behind your choice, even if it’s a white male. That’s what happened with Biden. And we won. That is not what’s happening here. The only consideration we have is for white men and it’s damaging to the people doing the work and to the choice of someone like Walz if we decide that we need to shore up 2 or to someone like Shapiro if we decide we need to shore up 1 because it won’t have been about whether the candidate was good, just whether it made white men happy. That is a terrible position to be arguing from in the Democratic Party, and I am astounded that people can’t understand that.
Of course moderates are part of 2. But how much does that matter when Trump is on the ballot? Do we lose them to Trump because we oppose school vouchers or whatever? There has NEVER been a bigger policy gap between two candidates than right now. I cannot imagine that the delta between two acceptable dems is going to alter more than a small number of votes. A 1% shift in national polls is about 1.5 million people, just to put something in context.
Meanwhile, there are 80 million registered voters who are probably not going to vote in this election. They don’t vote because they don’t think it matters. Some are nihilists like young people who have already internalized they’re going to die young to climate change, some are cynics who think politicians don’t give a shit about them, some are frustrated that it doesn’t matter who they vote for, nothing gets done. It doesn’t matter. You don’t reach these people with TV ads. TV ads are designed to make more non-voters by depressing turnout on the other side. You reach these people by doing the work – by 3. By knocking on their door at letting them know that someone cares enough to volunteer their time to reach out and give some hope that maybe yeah, if I vote something good can come of it. The question is how do you minimize the impact on 1 and 2 while maximizing the impact on 3.
There is not a lot of room to change voters minds. The media trot out Trump/Biden vote switchers like fucking unicorns. But Biden added 16 million voters over Hillary in 2016. Trump added 12 million. The election wasn’t won by getting people to change their mind, it was won because of the 28 million new voters, we added more. That was entirely due to 3. It was entirely turnout-driven. The people who changed their minds were not the key to winning in 2020.
Sally
@rikyrah: This is what Prof. Snyder tries to tell people. Once you have a dictator in power, you lose control. Voting for an authoritarian votes away your freedom. See every country with a dictator – and how it worked out for the people who put them there. It didn’t work out for the Iranian women (and many men) who supported the Ayatollah. Not in Germany, Venezuela, etc, etc.
You vote away your freedom when you vote for a dictator – any dictator.
Sally
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Then why has he got only three children? Don’t tell me they use birth control, and his wife has a high powered career!
Dan B
@rikyrah: There is a list of 50 things Harris did as AG that improved justice for people, especially POC. It is phenomenal! I’d love to have it shortened or effectively summarized. She is a Cop REFORMER! Police REFORMER!
Keep repeating!
Ruckus
@Martin:
After my last comment I want to add, I believe that you do have a decent concept on this issue.
But.
We are in basically new territory here, not a revamp of something else. Women have run for president, or at least one has. But this was a wife of a former president and she didn’t get the final buzzer. Now this is not my vision of her but I wonder how many thought that she would be a stand in for her husband? I seem to recall reading/hearing about that concept in more than one place. This is different. A different time. I don’t know that Harris will win, none of us do. But to me it seems that it is more than time that this happens and we have a strong, liberal woman running.
So I ask, who else? Who else might be better? Who else is going to run? Who else is in a position to run?
This is politics, it has ALWAYS had a somewhat nasty side to it, devisions on both sides (ours more than the other one) but this may just bring over some women from the other side. Who see more than the politics of the candidate. I would never have imagined that shitforbrains would even get to be a candidate, let alone win. But he’s proven that in the ACTUAL job, he is a loser, useless, not worth the oxygen he consumes, let alone the cosmetics and yards of suit material and orange skin cream.
Dan B
@Martin: I’ll wait for black women to weigh in on Walz. So far there’s at least one strong up vote for Walz from a black woman.
But you do you.
columbusqueen
The first rule for any VP pick is “do no harm.” Walz is the only one who meets that criteria. Shapiro is potentially a hot kiss of death with his issues, & Kelly is not a good enough speaker to KO Vance properly.
Ruckus
@Martin:
OK now I see where you are going.
I agree.
I do feel that while we may lose some voters we likely might get some women to change sides because of who is running on each side.
I also feel that if shitforbrains gets much exposure he will lose a fair number of votes, and may already have, because his brain seems to have taken that often short road that ends at the inability to process anything. He maybe hasn’t hit the way out chute yet but he is seemingly going rapidly in that direction. Having been through a few family members going through old fart finish, SFB seems to have taken that last swan dive into the river that leads to old fart finish. OK for him it’s more like a fall off the cliff to old fart finish, but still, the landing is the same, it’s just the trip to get there can go a few different ways….
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
And is it exactly the same in every fraternity?
I’ve never been a pledge so all I know is what I’ve been told by some that have, such as yourself. I’m not really questioning you, first because I don’t have the first hand experience but I know a few who have been and some of them seem to me to be exactly the types.
Ruckus
@UncleEbeneezer:
I believe that this election will be different than any in my lifetime. And I have heard of people who would not vote for someone because of who was the running mate. Sure not often but there have been cases.
Dan B
@Martin: Your logic is good, except fir this: How would a vetting process guarantee an increase in “the base”? Most people I encounter who are liberal or a minority who is likely to be impacted want nothing to do with the messy, and often ugly, process.
It would probably be best to narrow the field, as has been done, to minimize the number of fights and the strong potential for the far right to do psy-ops and sow chaos.
I’d question why a high powered, black led, law firm only came up with straight white men. I know that a number of minority and female candidates had said no. I’d rather not have weak or compromised minority or female candidates proposed. Running through the female governors at present I can’t think of candidates that are ready now. But there should be more in the future and less Kristi Noems.
Energizing the base is crucial but losing elections doesn’t increase energy any more than being too safe.
Colette South
@Quiltingfool:
@MCA1: People do understand that Minnesota has a very large urban population, right? St Paul/Minneapolis (aka the twin cities) has a population of about 3.7 million. A visit to the Minnesota governor’s mansion or the Minnesota state capitol is no Cletus safari.
wjca
@Martin: Thank you. That is not at all what I had understood you to be saying (although I can see now how it was).
I agree that turnout is increasingly important. In most cases. But we aren’t looking at most cases here.
I would note that, in 2020, Trump got more votes than any previous winning candidate. He lost, because Biden got far more. I have trouble believing that this was all, or even primarily, about energizing the base. Rather, it looks to me like it was far more about turning out those who, if they show up, will vote D. And about reaching out to the electorate generally — to people who might not normally vote D, but wanted no more of Trump.
Not to minimize the importance of energizing the base. But it looks to me like Harris has got that well covered. So working the other two groups is where the focus needs to be next.
EDT I know you say something like this in your last paragraph. But we disagree about whether the added voters are due to a more energized base, or to reaching out to members of the general electorate. Meaning having the ticket be people that speak to them.
wjca
@wjca:
Martin, perhaps the way to put this is a reflection of your own point. How many of the base currently energized by Harris would throw up their hands because her VP pick wasn’t their ideal? I submit the number is tiny.
Geminid
@Dan B: I still say the Democratic base is that group of voters who come out in every election and vote for Democrats.
Martin
Right, but most people you encounter aren’t the base – they’re #2. The base is the people who DO care about these things. The base is us. The base is the people who run for office, who get into heated arguments with other democrats over who the best candidate is in the primary, and all that. These are people who are invested.
And because they’re invested, the process by which these things happen matters, how they discussed matters, what signals are being sent matters. And a big complaint by the various groups that are invested in the party is that there is insufficient effort to consider, advance, support, lift up, fund, women, POC, LGBTQ candidates, etc. White liberals (eg, party operatives) give up on them as being unelectable or driving away support for the party because of their identity. But, they are also pragmatists and winning is most important so if picking the white guy is the best path to winning, they’ll back that individual. However, that does require that the party be willing to consider people other than the white guy because that whole process of consider, advance, support, etc. still needs to happen. And the process is how you do both. But you cannot start the process with ‘we’re only going to consider midwestern white men’ which is what we’ve done.
Remember so much of the angst about Biden being pressured to drop out was a fear that the party operatives were going to push out Harris as well and go straight to ‘we need a midwestern white man’. And well, that’s exactly what we did with the VP pick. And that sends a message, and it’s not a good one to the people who do the work, who are predominantly women of color, men of color, and women. I want those people uplifted and energized and you do that by considering their interests at least as equally as the white men. Are we doing that here? 12 white people, two being women (and one of those never even being discussed), and one being LGBTQ.
Martin
@wjca: Again, I’m not saying their VP needs to be their ideal. I’ve said MANY TIMES NOW that the base got behind Biden because the primary choices included pretty much everyone. Their ideal was considered, and because they were fairly considered, regardless of who won, they were behind them.
I’m not talking about the result, I’m talking about the process to get to the result. The damage is done in the process. My argument is that we are fucking this process up and because of that we are undermining people who otherwise would be good results and making them worse because it’s harder to get the most important people here – the people who do the work – to throw their energy behind the choice.
Martin
@Geminid: I’m not looking to debate the term. I defined my terms above. Substitute whatever words make you happy in there.
wjca
I begin to see part of why I so misunderstood you. I didn’t realize that you were working with such a (from my view) incredibly narrow definition of “the base”. The more usual definition, even here, included people, all the people, who reliably turn out and vote for D candidates.
wjca
Except “we” aren’t. Because we aren’t part of the process. The Harris campaign are the ones executing the process. We are sitting on the sidelines, more accurately on our couches at home, discussing what we think the coaches should do for the next play.
Basically, we have no idea who all got serious consideration, who is on the short list now, etc. (Well, unless you for some reason trust the rumors in the MSM.) For all you or I know, there could have been members of any and every group you can think of (except people who aren’t eligible, of course) given consideration.
Or, just in case I have misunderstood, do you think some kind of open convention would be better. Which, necessarily, means no vetting of the people being considered. Nor much consideration of who Harris can work with.
Martin
@wjca: Yeah, I guess I didn’t know what to call them, so I grabbed the closest term. I too often shortcut my thinking when I write and get disconnected with my audience.
I’m accustomed to taking a few drafts to get my thoughts together and blog comments don’t really allow for that so I put out a bunch of incomplete thoughts and then I have to clean up – it’s a mess.
Martin
@wjca: I guess there’s a couple aspects of that:
We’ll never know what the internal consideration was. But just as the discussion here was taken as proxy or explainer for what was being reported about pressure for Biden to step down as if people here had the power to push Biden out, there is a sense that discussions around these things reflect the likely thinking within the campaign, absent actual reporting around that.
wjca
But do we know who all is on that list? My point is, we don’t — unless you have sources inside the campaign. As far as I can see, all we have is speculation about who might be under consideration. And arguments about their relative merits.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some or all of those people are (or were) on the list. But I would definitely be surprised if they are the entire list.
Martin
@wjca: I’m assuming multiple reporting on the 12 names is accurate. But point taken, they could be considering more. This is not the normal process – it’s rushed, people have taken themselves out, it’s possible others have gone in, reporters not getting a complete/accurate list, etc.
But I also haven’t seen anyone else auditioning.
wjca
Rushed? Definitely.
But not the normal process? It seems pretty routine that the nominee considers various possibilities, and makes a decision. Input, confidential input, from various advisors. But without anything resembling public discussion, evaluation, etc.
Sometimes the choice is someone who ran in the primaries — with no pattern I’ve detected as to how well they did. Sometimes it is someone who didn’t enter the primaries. Sometimes it’s a great choice; other times (Palin, Vance, etc.) it’s a great mistake. But in any event, it’s strictly the choice of the nominee. Which is what’s happening now.
WereBear
I just got my text. Geez, I comment on a something something level blog, you’d think I’d get better treatment.