What’s better than one triple thick, black and white milkshake after a convention speech?
A second to share with a friend. pic.twitter.com/DHmP8xHhz9
— Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) August 21, 2024
The HarrisWalz campaign is the only campaign that cares about the working class. #DNC pic.twitter.com/PmBlF74ZUO
— 2RawTooReal (@2RawTooReal) August 21, 2024
Mr. Charles P. Pierce, at Esquire — “DNC Day 2: I Could Feel That Roll Call All the Way Up from My Feet”:
… In 2020, we learned that you could have a political convention in virtual space. No audience. No hype. No frenzy. The country was still living its aquarium life due to the pandemic, and everything was screens and chyrons. In fact, there were more than a few people who suggested that an actual political convention, which admittedly is a relic of another time, had become an unsupportable anachronism. Look at what we can do with our technology. Who needs people in funny hats? (This means you, Ben Wikler of Wisconsin. I saw you with cheese on your head.) Now, after two days of a convention that you can feel all the way up from your feet, that perception seems chilly and bloodless and irredeemably false.
This was a political party—and through it, a country—finally exhaling the way it’s needed to exhale since American Carnage Day in 2017. Lil Jon, and DJ Cassidy, and Bernie and the Billionaire were simply the individual expressions of a collective step into unfamiliar sunshine. It was a party, and a country, learning to breathe again, yearning to breathe free, as it says on the pedestal beneath the Statue of Liberty, a verse that was written to welcome waves of immigrants, but it was a verse that leaped to mind Tuesday night because it seemed that America was being welcomed back to itself. That’s what you could feel in your feet in the United Center on Tuesday night. Everyone was going faster miles an hour…with the radio on…
It's truly hilarious that the Dems' biggest issue this week is that they have so many powerful, beloved leaders that we go late every night with just top-tier names.
The RNC was brief, except for Trump's rant. And no former leaders to speak, b/c virtually none support him.
— Chris “Law Dork” Geidner (@chrisgeidner) August 21, 2024
Mother’s milk of politics…
SCOOP w/@jeffmason1 : @KamalaHarris has raised around $500 million since she became the Democratic presidential candidate, sources tell Reuters, an unprecedented money haul that reflects donor enthusiasm going into the Nov. 5 election.
— Nandita Bose (@nanditab1) August 20, 2024
The next few days at the Democratic convention will feature an impressive array of former & current Republican elected officials & members of the Trump Admin who are supporting Kamala Harris. https://t.co/2m799ogAbL
— Ron Filipkowski (@RonFilipkowski) August 20, 2024
As HRC President @KelleyJRobinson explains at the #DNC2024, progress is possible under a Harris-Walz administration. 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
Catch her full conversation with @MSNBC: https://t.co/GmRqWNBnWA pic.twitter.com/MLWj7l3vsc
— HRC 🥥🌴 (@HRC) August 21, 2024
This is what attendees at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago had to say to undecided voters. pic.twitter.com/CjtKgHoLDS
— The Associated Press (@AP) August 21, 2024
Listen, if you were *on here* last night whining about this convention, do us all a favor and put a cork in it. After this astonishing roll call, it doesn't matter how late this thing goes… https://t.co/1tZMTkv6vR
— Jennifer Schulze (@NewsJennifer) August 21, 2024
Happy one month birthday to Kamala Harris' Presidential campaign.
One month. Feels like a decade. https://t.co/h60uc1Vyls
— emptywheel (cheek) (@emptywheel) August 21, 2024
dmsilev
Walz is speaking now. He’s no JD Vance.
Thank God.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@dmsilev:
Vance has negative charisma
HumboldtBlue
Walz’s son broke me, bawlin’.
dmsilev
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s impressive, really.
KatKapCC
I’m moving my commentary to this thread to stop my head from exploding.
Tim is great. What a genuine and decent man.
dmsilev
“Is it weird? Absolutely. But it’s also *wrong*”.
Chet Murthy
C’mon everybody, let’s ignore the troll, don’t engage, just pie him, and he’ll go away.
oldster
Walz speaking now. Holy shit, he’s good.
Lily
🔥🔥🔥🔥
KatKapCC
I accept sports metaphors in politics when it’s a former football coach using them.
dmsilev
@oldster: He most definitely is.
HumboldtBlue
Goddamn, that’s beautiful
Leto
Man, this guy is good. He might be going places.
GUUUUUUUUUS!
dc
Neil Young, and they most likely have his permission.
oldster
I am just amazed at what a pitch-perfect performance that was. The cadences, the pauses, the emphasis and delivery — he is the real deal. Thank god he’s on our side.
HumboldtBlue
Neil Young was the perfect choice… rockin’ in the free world
Ohio Mom
@HumboldtBlue: Walz’s son Gus is definitely what we in the business call neurodiverse.
I find him absolutely adorable.
Steve in the ATL
I keep staying up late watching these awesome speeches. I barely have the energy to get up in the morning and crush unions!
zhena gogolia
YAY TIM!!!
Scout211
@Ohio Mom: The CNN talking heads were all in their feels about Gus and his shouting “That’s my dad!” I could hardly believe I was hearing that from them but they were all very moved by it.
Kent
I like how Democrats are stealing EVERYTHING back from the GOP.
Freedom
Football
Family
etc.
zhena gogolia
@Ohio Mom: He is adorable, and so is Hope in her lavender lace!
And Gwen is fantastic as well
frosty
Your whole raison d’etre sidetracked by Democrats! The horror!!
HumboldtBlue
@Kent:
Isn’t it beautiful!
Mike E
@KatKapCC: pie filter is your friend, especially for the vampire troll
Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGA)
That was powerful.
(Damn, I’m glad he’s ours. Somewhere there’s a parallel universe America where Walz is a Republican, and he just gave his parallel universe right-wing speech. That America’s democracy just died.)
twbrandt
All the speakers were so good, but Walz was absolutely outstanding!
Almost Retired
@Steve in the ATL: Plan your day carefully. Sleep in, and then get up and crush unions on the West Coast, where it’s still early.
Lyrebird
@Kent: Even the better pro wrestlers!
ETA: I suspect the phrase “national divorce” was put forward by some right wingers. I so love what some clever writers on our side have made of it!
BR
https://bsky.app/profile/drskyskull.bsky.social/post/3l2bpoacujc2g
different-church-lady
Not about the convention, but: during the pandemic so many introverts and tech utopists were quietly cheering on the idea that everything would be virtual and the physical world was dead. Basically we’d all just be brains in vats, and that was gonna rock! I’m so damn glad they were wrong.
Leto
Joy Reid said we basically just watched an episode of Ted Lasso. Yup!
WaterGirl
Perfect song!
wjca
Call it a paradigm shift or a basic political restructuring, politics in this country is unlikely to be the same going forward.
dc
@zhena gogolia: What a beautiful young man and how his family supports him, no one tried to get him to sit down or shush him.
different-church-lady
@KatKapCC: christ, that asshole is back?
Kent
To dial back the clock a bit and I don’t know if this was discussed on the other threads.
But who else thinks Amanda Gorman is going to be a national leader of some sort in a few more years. She always brings me to tears.
SFBayAreaGal
Me thinks Kamala knew what she was doing.
I love Tim Walz and his family.
Do you think the so called know it all pundits will admit they were wrong about Tim Walz.
Kayla Rudbek
@different-church-lady: I swear that they are possessed by demons, (seriously the Devil’s fall was because of pride that spirit was superior to matter) and my retort is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6p-lDYPR2P8 (Madonna’s Material Girl)
HumboldtBlue
Of course Neil Young gave permission for the DNC to use rockin’ in the free world.
Of course he fucking did.
Litano
Walz is seriously a great communicator. I know that he’s said that he doesn’t plan on running for president after this, but I hope he reconsiders that stance or is just saying it for appearances (cynical perhaps, but that’s politics for you).
HumboldtBlue
@SFBayAreaGal:
The day that happens, my cat, Noodles, will solve difficult mathematic equations.
rikyrah
😢😢😢😢
Peanut made fun of me.
I love Governor Santa Claus 🤗 🤗
wjca
In a universe where Walz could be selected for Republican VP, Trump couldn’t be the candidate. Because TCFG couldn’t stand to be near anyone this good. He could never stand the comparison.
oldster
@Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGA):
Yeah, that’s exactly what I meant by saying “thank god he’s on our side.” He is such an unimpeachable Everyman, so likable and down to earth, that if he were selling the Republican bill of goods he would get a lot of buyers. And then we’d be screwed.
Where did he come from? It’s almost scary.
Scout211
TF79
Walz was truly an outstanding choice for VP
SFBayAreaGal
I love watching the Minnesota delegates partying
WaterGirl
@Kent:
Amanda Gorman is amazing in so many ways.
Kent
@SFBayAreaGal:
Harris has been right about every single damn thing to date in this campaign. It has been masterful without even the slightest misstep.
Picking Walz
Ignoring the media
Ignoring the consultants who wanted her to dial back the “weird” and be more cautious
Gathering up endorsements from every major Democrat within 24 hours of Biden stepping down
Owning Trump through all the debate negotiations
Hiring a bunch of 20-somethings to run her social media and letting them do their thing
Getting under Trump’s skin on a daily basis without actually engaging with his nonsense.
BR
I think we can’t credit Harris’s gut enough on choosing Walz. She surely had lots of advisors and bigwigs in the party saying other candidates were safer bets. But she knew that she’s not a safe bet on paper either or in the pundits’ eyes but that doesn’t matter.
rikyrah
Jill Twiss (@jilltwiss) posted at 10:24 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
IF THAT MAN DOESN’T PLAY SANTA IN THE WHITE HOUSE WHAT ARE WE EVEN DOING HERE
(https://x.com/jilltwiss/status/1826460468568813729?s=02)
FastEdD
Never underestimate a public school teacher. Never.
rikyrah
Franklin Leonard (@franklinleonard) posted at 10:24 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
Said it before and I’ll say it again: I am suspicious that Tim Walz was built in a lab for this job at this moment. #DNC2024
(https://x.com/franklinleonard/status/1826460355448766714?s=02)
rikyrah
LOL😂😂😂
Jill Hopkins (@Jillhopkins) posted at 5:10 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
The DNC is just Coachella for Poli-Sci majors
(https://x.com/Jillhopkins/status/1826381265425064126?s=02)
Ohio Mom
@Kent: You left out chanting “USA! USA!”
I never imagining smiling when hearing that.
HumboldtBlue
Sweet Jesus slapping orphans with old copies of TV Guide, Lawrence O’Donnell is complaining the speeches are too late. He’s so damn excellent, but complaining it’s late for the East Coast is whining.
rikyrah
Daksh Bhatia (@NotDakshBhatia) posted at 10:31 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
The exact moment felt like when Walz said — “never underestimate a public teacher”
Teachers are absolute warriors, given how resource constrained they are, to do all that they do.
(https://x.com/NotDakshBhatia/status/1826462115588170090?s=02)
JoyceH
@Kent: Heck, we got Disney! We got BEER! I’m picturing the MAGAts trying to learn to like Chardonnay.
BR
I think I’m done with BlueSky — that was short lived lol. Entertaining but man the manic progressive horseshoe energy there is driving me crazy, like AnotherScott said earlier.
rikyrah
Tom LoBianco, 24sight News, “Pence whisperer” (@tomlobianco) posted at 10:32 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it” Walz says of Project 2025
(https://x.com/tomlobianco/status/1826462517838635410?s=02)
Sister Golden Bear
@BR: I thought Vance bit the head off a live bat. /s
eclare
@Ohio Mom:
From what I have read he is conversant
rikyrah
Acyn (@Acyn) posted at 9:45 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
Oprah: Soon we are going to be teaching our daughters and sons about how this child of an Indian mother and Jamaican father, two idealistic and energetic immigrants.. How this child grew up to become the 47th president of the United States https://t.co/W54lZmrGcn
(https://x.com/Acyn/status/1826450487597826289?s=02)
Leto
Tim Walz is the Lil’ John of Minnesota.
KatKapCC
@Scout211: It’s funny how many musicians have told Trump not to use their music. Probably more than any other single politician, certainly way more than any Democrat.
Leto
@rikyrah: the Walz-inator?
rikyrah
Heartland Signal (@HeartlandSignal) posted at 9:44 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
Surprise DNC speaker Oprah Winfrey says Americans will always help each other out in emergencies like house fires.
“And if the place happens to belong to a childless cat lady, we try to get that cat out, too.” https://t.co/Yjh8CymHfi
(https://x.com/HeartlandSignal/status/1826450306118373419?s=02)
rikyrah
@Leto:
😂😂😂😂😂
eclare
Waltz is great, but I’m not sure that song means what he thinks it does.
Maybe it does, awesome.
But some explanation is needed. That is a pretty loaded song.
oldster
Buttegieg with subtle shade against Vance, talking about how during his time in Afghanistan he “went outside the wire.”
Take that, Private Press Office!
rikyrah
Sons of Killmonger & Disciple of Dark Brandon (@2Strong2Silence) posted at 10:05 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
The DNC has gone off smoothly. I know the media is in shambles because of this.
(https://x.com/2Strong2Silence/status/1826455543864606741?s=02)
twbrandt
Tim Walz’s son: That’s my dad!
JD Vance: Son, would you shut the hell up about Pikachu for 30 seconds?
3Sice
Way better half time speech than that bullshit about George Gipp.
banditqueen
@BR: Walz is subtly charismatic–on first meeting he likely seems friendly with a sense of humor, & you’re pretty sure he’d help out in a pinch. But then you see that he means it when he says, as he did tonight, that healthcare is a right, that no one should be hungry, and that he must do whatever he can to ensure we all have access to healthcare, no child or family or senior should be hungry, etc–and you’re also sure he’d help out in a pinch. He really complements Harris. And his support for his children, I can’t even picture him ever telling his son to “shut the hell up” as JDVance bragged about doing.
Ohio Mom
@eclare: Gus’s diagnoses are Non-verbal learning disability, ADHD and an anxiety disorder. His family calls them “his super powers.”
Some of the hallmarks of NVLD are difficulty in reading body language and social clues, and being very literal.
One NVLD kid I knew, when assigned in elementary school to write a letter to a storybook character of their choice, handed in a page with a giant O. He literally “wrote a letter.” And having fine motor challenges (another common NVLD characteristic) chose a letter he found easy to write.
sab
@oldster: Flyover Country is out there and actually a real place with real people living their lives, ignored by MSM.
Litano
@BR: The bluesky folks are definitely out in force tonight, but the campaign’s refusal to give airtime any Palestinian speaker is also a pretty awful unforced error that had me seeing red when I learned about it. I don’t if there are any Georgians here to back me up on this, but Rep. Ruwa Romman (one of the three speakers that the Uncommitted delegates suggested) is about as far as you can get from a wrecker who’s going to get on stage and bash Genocide Joe. Hell, she’s even spoken up against attempts to use her people’s suffering to boost Trump, someone who would only make the carnage in Gaza worse, in a way that’s a) effective b) frankly not possible for most Democrats. I dislike the fact that the DNC apparently made the calculation that even the most pro-Harris, anodyne speech from a Palestinian democrat would be unacceptable because it might ruin the feelgood vibe and remind viewers of the humanity of those on the receiving end of the Biden administration’s foreign policy decisions in Gaza.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
There were plenty of Republican leaders and former insiders from his inner circle.
It’s just that they didn’t go to his convention. They came to OUR convention to say “I will never in a million years vote for that guy”.
One of the little joys I’ve been getting in this joyful week, is the number of times we hear somebody speak Spanish. MAGAs are driven absolutely wild by the sound of the Spanish language, and it delights me to think of that adding to their misery, if they’re listening.
oldster
@sab:
Oh, for sure. But very few of them can work a teleprompter and rouse an audience while still seeming like one of the sons of flyover country who is ignored by the MSM.
A Jimmy Stewart or a Tom Hanks makes their career by just being an ordinary guy on the big screen. And they are stars because it’s damned hard to do — ordinary guys can’t pull it off. When you see someone in that context look that ordinary, then they are doing something extraordinary.
Chet Murthy
@Litano: I can’t really blame them: to give the podium to someone who -could- wreck your carefully prepared and very expensive infomercial? On which the fate of the Republic really does hang ? If it were me, I wouldn’t risk it. And I’ve slowly come to the conclusion that we need to give Israel a deadline by which they vacate the Occupied Territories, or our backstop (and all our weapons sales/deliveries/subsidies) vanish. Give ’em a year to vacate, and if they don’t, then they’re on their own. B/c unless Israel realizes this is existential, they’ll just keep on murdering Palestinians, taking their land.
And even with all that, I still wouldn’t risk putting an explicitly pro-Palestinian speaker on that stage. B/c saving our Republic is more important than saving Palestinian lives. Yes, that means I’m behaving like a typical Imperial American. I have no time for putting out a neighbor’s house fire, when my own house is burning.
BR
@Litano:
I dunno. If they had someone they were confident would stay on message, I could imagine them putting someone like that on air at like 4pm in the schedule. But the problem is I imagine the pressure from fellow activists would be so intense to go on a rant off script and then that would become the “dems in disarray” that we don’t need.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@HumboldtBlue: If he’s really that upset about it, he could change time zones.
My wife attended a virtual conference in Italy a few years ago. She decided to live on Italy time for a week, much to the amusement of friends.
wjca
Next time, people speaking other languages as well. Make some heads totally explode.
BR
This was today:
https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/08/hulk-hogans-trip-to-medina-country-bar-ends-in-beer-can-throw-that-sends-woman-to-hospital.html
Villago Delenda Est
“I’m Pete Buttigieg, and you may know me from Fox News.”
wjca
It really is the only way to survive. If your conference is on European or African time, it’s just like working grave shift: you have to live it. Ask me how I know.
oldster
@Chet Murthy:
“B/c saving our Republic is more important than saving Palestinian lives.”
Even if Palestinian lives were your first priority, and you cared nothing for the Republic, you would still be crazy to do anything to jeopardize Kamala’s chances. Because a Trump win would mean the absolute worst outcomes for Palestine. Trump would give Netanyahu carte blanche to kill every last Palestinian, if that will give Trump an extra dollar.
I know it will be hard for Palestinian-Americans to bite their tongues through the next few months. But if they keep their eyes on the prize, then that’s exactly what they’ll do. Whether for the Republic, or for saving Palestinian lives.
Ishiyama
There are wheels within wheels. Nancy Pelosi’s daughter was interviewed on C-SPAN; she was running a candidate’s school when Tim was first running for Congress, and advised him on advertising.And she consulted Kamala for career advice when Kamala was an assistant D.A. in Alameda County. Since Nancy Pelosi was also close to Kamala, she very well might have consulted her and her daughter about the VP choice, and learned about Tim from them.
rikyrah
Jaime Harrison (@harrisonjaime) posted at 9:54 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
I just saw the disgusting video of @realMikeLindell yelling at @KnowaWasTaken – a child.
Lindell, Knowa is my personal guest. Knowa is 12 years old. He is our future and I invited HIM to attend our convention but YOU sir were not invited and frankly not wanted.
So don’t l EVER come into this building filled with hope and joy and bring your vitriolic bitterness and bile! And the next time you feel compelled to yell at another young Black kid… come find me!
(https://x.com/harrisonjaime/status/1826452759283204172?t=eq6Qw8un_Y8EhrbqW3sf7w&s=03)
Chet Murthy
@wjca: Heck, even -working- with Europeans, you gotta shift everything. Otherwise, either you’re always groggy when talkin’ to ’em, or they’re ready for bed (or heading home for family time, etc). I worked w/some folks in Zurich, and I ended up pretty quickly waking up at 4am, to bed by 7pm. B/c shit, otherwise I could wake up with an alarm (usually but not always) but I was just ….. shit for anything requiring actual functioning brain cells.
prostratedragon
@different-church-lady: Nothing like the encounter.
Villago Delenda Est
@rikyrah: Jaime, hit him with the chair!
Chet Murthy
@oldster: Well yes, that too. But at that point, I’m heading into the rant where I accuse these protestors of being free-riders, no better than the Freedom Caucus, just a buncha hostage-takers, and ….. well, it goes downhill fast. So I figure, stick to the best version of their argument and the best version of my assessment of their argument.
And even then, it’s clear I wouldn’t take the risk.
BR
@oldster:
Literally people in Gaza prefer Harris over Trump:
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/07/palestinians-gaza-warm-kamala-harris-prefer-anyone-over-trump
Litano
@BR: @Chet Murthy: I don’t know how closely you’ve followed Uncommitted, but the delegates they sent to the DNC aren’t like that and Representative Ruwa Romman emphatically Is Not Like That. I’ve frankly been a bit disturbed at the guilt-by-association game that’s gone on with this group. They’re doing almost everything I’d want dissenting Democrats to do to make their views known and speak up for a change in policy, all in incredibly difficult, emotionally charged circumstances. This has not saved them from being smeared with the actions and beliefs of the most radical fringe of the movement, in a way that’s honestly reminiscent of how Republicans talked about BLM.
@Chet Murthy: I hope your deadline happens, but it doesn’t seem like there’s a number of dead Palestinians high enough for America to reconsider its priorities in the region. Uncommitted is now calling for an end to arms shipments instead of a ceasefire precisely because of Biden WH’s PR strategy of changing the meaning of that word so they can talk about prospects for a “ceasefire” deal with no guarantees of an actual ceasefire.
HumboldtBlue
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
Yes it is. That’s why the C-SPAN feed is so good.
Chet Murthy
@Litano: “the delegates they sent to the DNC aren’t like that and Representative Ruwa Romman emphatically Is Not Like That”
Did the Dems put any BLM leadership on that stage? I kinda doubt it, right? I certainly haven’t heard of it.
Jackie
@HumboldtBlue:
I’m late in responding, because I just focused on Tim Walz’s speech. I bawled, and cheered, and I so hope Tim Walz is our next Vice President!!!
WOW! Tears of hope and happiness are streaming down my face.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@dc: I just heard on MSNBC that they did indeed get special permission from Neil Young to use Keep On Rockin in the Free World at the end
Kent
Without a doubt, Netanyahu is deliberately dragging out this war and undermining every proposed solution both to save his own political skin and also to advantage Trump over Biden.
I’m not actually sure what Biden can do about that. Cutting off all aid to Israel isn’t actually going to happen because Israel basically has a veto-proof majority in Congress. So then what? Performative stuff that doesn’t actually accomplish anything?
In any event, there are two sides to this conflict. I don’t see Hamas agreeing to lay down their arms, nor do I see many calling for them to do so.
piratedan
@Litano: I hate to even type this but there’s a pragmatic political calculation. The Dems are trying to get elected. How does highlighting the problems with their own policies (in honoring trade agreements) in regards to Hamas/Israel help them get elected?
How does that help?
You know and I know that as far as DJT is concerned, the RW coalition in charge in Israel could bulldoze Gaza into the Mediterranean and would then ask if they could build a resort hotel on the ruins.
Biden is trying to get Bibi to stop, even tho stopping could very well lead to his being removed from power as the war time cabinet would no longer be needed, so good luck selling that. Yet this country has a seven decades history with Israel that is only surpassed by our relationships with Canada and the UK. Biden has been in the halls of power while a good part of this history unfolded. He wants to use diplomacy and the regional actors aren’t too bothered by the atrocities committed by either side.
I too want Biden to stop the shipments of the heavy weaps, but there have to be some compelling reasons for him to do so, because Biden as a rule, is a compassionate man but he’s also one who stands by his word, or rather America’s agreements (see Afghanistan pullout).
I feel that Harris would have fewer issues giving Bibi the bird, but she has to be elected first and I circle back to the point, why would she give ammunition to the GOP and the MSM at this point to allow them to choke all of the oxygen out of the campaign by allowing this to become a larger issue?
Chet Murthy
@Litano: “it doesn’t seem like there’s a number of dead civilians high enough for America to reconsider its priorities in the region”
You have just precisely and accurately enunciated -why- the Dems could not take the risk. Party conventions are not about speaking to the faithful — not anymore. They’re expensive and carefully-produced infomercials designed to reach out to (as a commenter put it up-thread or in a previous post) viewers who think about politics every four years. You’ve just admitted that they don’t care about dead Palestinian children, starving Palestinians, Palestinians now suffering from plagues like polio. The DNC is not a telethon for “good causes”: it’s a sales pitch to get people to vote Dem in November.
I’ve already sent more money to election groups than my yearly rent, and by the end of this cycle I’ll send double my yearly rent. This is deadly serious, and the only issues that need to be aired, the only issues that need to be discussed, are those that can -move- voters to our column.
And yes, that pretty much means that Black Lives Matter and Defund The Police will not be discussed. I’m pretty damn brown, and I know that if I’m stopped by the police, I will “fit the description” (I’ve fit the description before) and maybe bad things will happen. The police are not my friend. But there are more important things at stake than that, in this election.
oldster
I just saw clips of Bill Clinton’s speech tonight, and I am shocked at how old he has become. He’s 78, and looking every year of it.
HumboldtBlue
@BR:
Excellent point. Hearkens back to Obama choosing Joe.
Bupalos
Second thread where it’s come up, I’m struggling a bit with “intergenerational wealth” coming up. This feels like a surprising term to be emerging right now. Against the backdrop of climate change, mass migration pressure, a kind of physically guaranteed austerity… the whole destabilized, depleted, fluid world we’re crossing into for the next 50+ years. For the term “intergenerational wealth” to emerge when the idea of generational continuity in a place is almost completely passe now outside the Amish community…. I’m surprised.
Chet Murthy
Please don’t feed the troll. He derailed the previous thread, now he’s gonna try to do it to this one. Just ignore him, pie him, don’t even read his comments. Please ?
rikyrah
Rafi 🥥🇺🇸 (@OverpricedVodka) posted at 8:37 PM on Wed, Aug 21, 2024:
Somebody’s Big Mama is in her living room right now with a Black Jesus on one wall, a photo of Obama on another wall, and a calendar from a funeral home on another wall, watching Bill Clinton at the #DNC2024 saying “yup, he still got it.”
And that’s why he’s on the stage. https://t.co/5hWZA4Tj07
(https://x.com/OverpricedVodka/status/1826433384588964326?t=6MrHQc1WP60aioHhqyMqTA&s=03)
Litano
@Chet Murthy: Again, the ask wasn’t to put an activist on stage. It was to put a Democrat elected in good standing with the party who also happens to be Palestinian on stage. Three choices were given, and all of them agreed to have their speeches vetted.
Maybe we remember the 2020 convention differently, but I don’t think the party blocked black speakers from the program or told them that they weren’t allowed to talk about police brutality. Hell, there was a moment of silence for George Floyd. Obviously the two situations are different enough that I don’t think this comparison works for a number of reasons, but denying the chance for a speaker altogether does strike me as pretty extreme.
HumboldtBlue
@Ishiyama:
Details. This is why we read this blog.
Chet Murthy
@Litano: I’m glad you brought up 2020. Do you remember what happened as a result of all the Defund The Police calls ? White America got scared of the Scary Black/Brown People, and police funding actually went -up-. Defund The Police actually scared Whte America off. I suspect this is why, this year, there’s no BLM or Defund the Police rhetoric anywhere in the institutional Democratic Party: they learned that lesson well.
So now to these speakers. The problem is, you can never be sure, and you have to be 100% sure, before you put a speaker in that stage. 100%, not 99.9%. 100%. Let’s imagine a different timeline, where Palestine supporters weren’t routinely disrupting speeches by Dem politicians, or appearances by high-ranking Dem officials on TV talk shows (like happened last night when Pelosi went on Colbert’s show). Then you could imagine that the people running this convention would think “well sure, they’re going to play nice with us, let’s have ’em on”. But in this timeline, where over and over (and over and over) Palestinian protestors are disrupting Dem events (including, you’ll remember this very convention — remember they tried to disrupt, and had to be shouted–down by the rest of the audience?) it just isn’t a safe thing to do.
KatKapCC
@Litano: Do the hostages being held by Hamas factor into your thinking at all? Do you think if Hamas released them, things might be different? Do you wonder why Hamas refuses to do so
Remember: There are Americans among them, including the son of Jon and Rachel who were on that stage. All of this “don’t give Israel anything” seems to be saying “the hostages can rot” because no one mentions them.
Bupalos
@Chet Murthy: Wait though… assuming you mean my thing about intergenerational wealth… you must not have “pied” me. Why are you literally begging others to do that but you haven’t?
By way of apology, I really do assume I REALLY DO ASSUME that when people have these kind of loud reactions and talk about the pie thing (you’ve definitely indicated that inclination) that I’m no longer speaking to them. So if you’re offended or whatever less… sensitive…term you prefer… why didn’t you engage that pie function? You can curate your own experience and not be assaulted by my ridiculous considerations.
BR
@Chet Murthy:
And suppose such a person were to stay on message. The message would totally not be sufficient in the eyes of the protestors — that person would be seen as a sell out and the protestors would see it as just as bad as if nobody spoke at all.
Jay
@Kent:
The US has the Leahy Act.
The State Department can ban US aid to any groups violating the terms of the Leahy Act.
This would not stop US Aid to Israel, but would limit what units in the Israeli Military can use that aid.
This would require that the US State Department “build a case” using the ton’s of Tic Toc and other social media the Israeli Military has kindly provided, documenting individual Unit’s war crimes, then bar the Israeli Government from allowing them to use US supplied aid.
It’s completely outside the House and the Senate.
But Biden won’t do it, nor will the US State Department.
Chet Murthy
@Litano: And we can even set aside the worry about whether the speaker would go off-agreed-script. You yourself said that you fear America just doesn’t care enough about dead Palestinians. If America doesn’t care, then why do you think the Dems should risk raising the issue on the convention stage? What will be gained? Will it help the Dems win in November?
What is the rationale for bringing this issue to the fore at the convention?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Chet Murthy:
Litano’s not talking about random activists in the comment you’re replying to. They’re talking about Uncommitted delegates/Dem politicians willing to have their speeches vetted
prostratedragon
Cartoon:
HumboldtBlue
@rikyrah:
Frame it!
KatKapCC
@Chet Murthy: I am honestly wondering if this person is on drugs. I assume they are bleating the same garbage, and it is very weird how obsessed they are with this. And not a good look at all, but they don’t seem to care about appearing to be prejudiced.
BR
@Jay:
Yeah, I think Biden has to make the first move here. If Harris were to diverge, it would consume the campaign. Whereas Biden can afford to take the political hit if needed.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Chet Murthy:
Not pissing off Arab-Americans whose votes we need to win Michigan?
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I’m well aware of the distinction between random activists, and Dem politicians who feel strongly about the slaughter of Palestinians, the theft of their land. It doesn’t that you must have enormous confidence in that speaker, before you let them onstage.
And as I asked in a just-previous comment, if Litano agrees that America (it seems) just doesn’t care about the deaths of Palestinians, then what’s the rationale for raising the issue at the DNC? How does raising the issue advance the Dems to a win in November?
Chet Murthy
@KatKapCC: Long ago, Bupalos used to be intermittently unhinged, but usually a well-hinged commenter. Here and at LG&M. But in recent weeks, they’ve gone over the edge. I blocked ’em, and every now and then I unblock to peek at their latest comment; it is uniformly cray-cray, and I am reminded why I blocked ’em in the first place.
Ah well.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Jay:
So the question is, why haven’t they?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Chet Murthy:
See #122
Jackie
Well this thread went to 💩. I’m going to bed while I’m still high on Walz’s speech.
BR
@Jackie:
Same. I remember now why I planned to zone out this week.
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): there are perhaps three different ways one might address the issue:
clear support for Israel, which might lose those Arab-Americans but reassure other Dem (and independent) voters who support Israel
clear support for the Palestinians, which might lose the Israel supporters, and keep Arab-Americans onside
staying muddled and not addressing the issue in ads and speeches, while (doing as Nance Pelosi did last night on Colbert) expressing support for Israel but -also- for a cease-fire and an end to the war and the killing. This might keep some of both groups onside.
Which is the best strategy? I’m not paid the big bucks to decide, butI have to believe that it’s #3. And also, as someone pointed out, AIPAC continues to command large majorities in both Houses of Congress. From this we might conclude that a LOT of Americans still support Israel.
I don’t have to like these fact, to reckon them as -facts-.
Kent
@Jay: listen to yourself.
“Build a case using TikTok…”
We do, in fact have a CIA and NSA.
Gaza aside, if Harris wins, what she should actually do is squash Netanyahu like a rotten tomato for so overtly meddling in US elections.
Bupalos
@Litano: I appreciate this. Just consider that the United States at this point is democratically incapable of reevaluating it’s foreign commitments and formulating new strategy. If you feel like this is specific to Pallestinians and has to do with American racism, consider our complete inability to form an actual policy wrt Ukraine, beyond “we will vaguely and only partially effectively defend the status quo.”
There is nothing more manifestly in American interests than the Russian Federation LOSING their war on Ukraine, but our policy is to simply make sure nothing changes. I literally think if Ukraine threatened to actually win, we would pull back support. It’s because our policy is “we are not capable of formulating new foreign policy right now.”
The Arab-Israeli conflict is vastly more complicated RE: American interests. There is no democratic capacity to revisit commitments there. It isn’t possible right now.
It might become possible with a Democratic win and hopefully political realignment. But trying to pressure D’s right now is absolutely counterproductive to Palestinian interests. This pressure would be much better aimed at Republicans.
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
In their minds, it’s 1967 Israel, not 2024 Israel.
wjca
The real challenge comes when you have folks across the US and Canada, and in Europe and Africa, and in India, and in East and Southeast Asia, plus Australia. I have at least a couple of meetings like that every week; often more.
There simply is no good time; somebody is going to be up in the small hours of the morning. All we can do is rotate times, to share the pain a little. Which, realistically means the folks around the Pacific rim take turns at losing sleep.
Cheap worldwide telephone calls, and Zoom, definitely have downsides!
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): @Litano: I’ll also note that even discussing this subject is turning other commenters off, right in this thread. And this is probably a pretty friendly place to discuss these issues.
Frankly, Democratic activists (the people who would be most inclined to give a friendly hearing) have bigger fish to fry, and most Americans don’t actually care very much. I read recently that the G(r)OPers have spent >$250m this cycle on ads demonizing immigration and immigrants. This is a sign of the salience of “dirty foreigners” in America’s consciousness. I fear it would be an -enormous- lift to get Americans to care enough about Palestinians, and for long enough, to actually vote on the issue.
Shalimar
@Chet Murthy: First person I have ever pied. So sick of that discussion and carrying it over to a second thread was the last straw.
Jay
@Kent:
It was a comment on how Israeli Forces have been posting on social media clear evidence of war crimes, with glee.
PJ
@different-church-lady: A lot of people really dislike life, and uncertainty.
Hoppie
@rikyrah: 50 years ago when I was in school in Baltimore, Oprah was a great local news anchor. Her male counterpart, Richard Sher, was an asshat who shooed me away from a table at Enoch Pratt Free Library where I was researching a paper so he could do a shot. I was hugely gratified when she became a big success and he was a nobody.
All you girls go!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Chet Murthy:
It also might have the effect of satisfying no one. And aren’t most Jewish Americans, most of whom vote for Dems, not big fans of what Israel is doing?
What the hell is wrong with threatening to cut off arms shipments in private if Israel doesn’t agree to a ceasefire agreement?
Bupalos
@Chet Murthy: Ha. I don’t actually believe you. I don’t know what it would mean to block that person but then unblock them to check if they weren’t still unhinged. Some posts, or every post? How would you decide they stopped being crazy if it was just a random sampling?
That just sounds like nonsense. But you have to pretend you didn’t read this one at least probably just to make it credible.
Ha. I’m the only one here that’s read the book that’s dominated your thinking for the last 4 months, and you have to pretend to ignore me!!!
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Goku, you’re assuming that disagreeing with Bibi’s war is the same as opposing Israel full stop. There is a distance between those two things, and I think that’s the big, big problem.
Let me put it clearly: If the only way to get Bib to stop his genocidal war is to put Israel in existential peril, do you think that all these people who oppose BIbi’s war would be gung-ho for that? I don’t think so. I mean, just to be crystal-clear, up above I -was- gung-ho for it, and I remain gung-ho for it. B/c I’m fed up with Isreal using us as a tool in their genocidal campaign to cleanse Gaza and the West Bank. But before October 7, I also was in the state of “oppose Israel’s theft of Palestinian land, but support Israel fully”.
You’re assuming that people’s positions on this issue are simple and clear. And I think that that’s just not the case.
Which, again, is why the Dems are wisely steering far, far clear of it. B/c there’s no votes to be won there.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Chet Murthy:
I understand what you’re saying, but this is not an issue that is going to go away as long as this war is happening. And we have voters in our coalition that we need to win that this is important to. Not to mention the horrible humanitarian costs on the Palestinians. I don’t believe the Biden administration is doing nearly enough to end this conflict that we are funding
Jay
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
We don’t know what has been happening backstage.
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): “What the hell is wrong with threatening to cut off arms shipments in private if Israel doesn’t agree to a ceasefire agreement?”
Bibi is a sociopath. What do you think he’ll do? He’ll –force- you to either make the threat publicly (igniting a firestorm in Congress and the press in the US) or to back down.
Litano
@KatKapCC: Hamas did release 41 hostages, in November, until Israel scuttled the deal and refused to continue a prisoner for prisoner release that potentially could have been expanded to include all noncombatant hostages. During that 4 day exchange pause Israeli released 150 Palestinian prisoners– the vast majority of them women and children and 80% of them in indefinite administrative detention without having been charged with a crime. Israel has had an all-for-all prisoner exchange plus ceasefire offer on the table since the start of this conflict, and since then Hamas has come down from that position significantly. Israel’s response has been to offer counter-proposals with no guarantee of troops leaving the Gaza strip, to assassinate the chief negotiator for Hamas, and to sweep up more uncharged Palestinian prisoners in the West Bank while using rape as a systemic punishment in their own military prisons and then obstructing efforts to punish those responsible in a misplaced attempt to “get even” with Hamas.
Hamas is a heinous, disgusting organization. The negotiator I mentioned, Ismail Haniyeh, was seen as one of the more “moderate” figures in Hamas, but he too was videotaped celebrating the October 7th attack in the immediate aftermath. It does not change the fact that Israel could have had the hostages back 9 months ago now if this is what they cared about. Their goal is not to retrieve the hostages. Their goal is not even to “defeat Hamas:” anyone who’s studied the history of counter-insurgency in the 21st century understands the futility of that objective and the inevitable backlash that would come out of the appalling civilian death toll of any campaign that accomplished that objective. The real goals here are to continue this war for as long as possible, since many of the principal actors in the War Cabinet will be out on their ass as soon as the conflict ends, and make Gaza so unlivable that Jordan or Egypt can be compelled to take in the Palestinians and Israel can at least partially annex Gaza into a buffer zone. There’s also a second more ambitious goal of provoking Iran and Hezbollah into a regional war that will compel the US to get directly involved as a way of tightening the US commitment and using our military to defeat these enemies that Israeli would struggle to fight single-handedly, but at least some members of the Knesset seem to get how stupid this would be and it’s not as universal an objective. All of this has been discussed fairly casually in Israeli media sources, even those sympathetic to this whole project, which is why it’s infuriating to me that Americans don’t seem to understand it.
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): “And we have voters in our coalition that we need to win that this is important to”
Yes, there are many voters who support Israel, have for decades, and would view a change to that policy as a great betrayal. What’s your answer to them? Do they not count?
Shalimar
@Bupalos: You must not have pied anyone. It still tells you who the commenter is even though a nice pie replaces the text. and you can also toggle the text on and back off if you want to read an individual comment, like this one I read before I pied you
edit: it also pies this response to you though I can toggle it to add this edit. interesting.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Chet Murthy:
I’m simply suggesting we use our leverage to get them to stop and force both Hamas and Netanyahu’s government to agree to a ceasefire. Weapons and aid are our leverage. We have to do something. It’s clear that the diplomacy the Biden team has been trying for the better part of a year hasn’t been working. You don’t have to put Israel in existential peril if you coerce them into agreement for a ceasefire
Gretchen
@Ohio Mom: Like the storybook character Amelia Bedelia, who was also very literal. When told to dust the furniture, she spread dust on all the furniture.
Kent
@Jay: I understood your point.
But TikTok is not how foreign policy works. Biden doesn’t task some staffers with curating TikTok videos. He tasks the middle east experts at the CIA, State, NSC, to provide a range of policy options for discussion. And they game out every scenario
The biggest political issue here is that Netanyahu and his coalition are completely in the tank for Trump. I’m not sure what Biden can do about that.
wjca
What we do know, from watching him put together the coalition to support Ukraine, and watching him get bills thru Congress, is that Biden is very good at backstage. Likely the first we will know that something was going on backstage is after the fact. Until then, we’ll have no clue.
hitchhiker
@HumboldtBlue: Yeah, that was the moment I turned off that channel. O’Donnell was talking like the main audience for the thing was people who happen to live in the Eastern time zone and have no access to fucking youtube. Everything must be arranged for their convenience, all the time.
I’m sure that’s what he learned working in DC, but I live near Seattle with a million other people, and the clips I share from this thing will sometimes be from shit that happened after 11 pm in New York.
Deal with it. If your big contribution to the conversation after what we saw tonight is omg they ran 45 minutes late again!!! you might need to let someone else have the microphone.
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I think we’re talking past each other. So we should stop. I’ll just say it again to be clear:
YES, it would be great if we could force Bibi to stop killing, by withholding weapons and aid. But he’ll bring down unholy hell in Congress, in the press, and in the discourse generally in the US. At a time when we don’t need/want that. Oh and btw, even what you propose isn’t enough. Have you noticed that Bibi is baiting Iran into a full-on war? And why? B/c as long as the US gives Israel a backstop, if Iran attacks Israel for real, we have to attack Iran. And then we’re in a real shooting war.
Don’t you see how horrendous the situation is? The guy’s a hostage-taker, and he’s perfectly comfortable to burn the American Republic down, if that gets him a few more months of bombing Gaza, razing West Bank villages, stealing more Palestinian land. He’s a sociopath, and he has us by the short-and-curlies.
When I’m feeling particularly dour, I think we should assassinate the bastard, just to teach Israel that you do not fuck with us. But obviously, that would be even worse than what you propose, far, far, worse.
Shalimar
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Welcome to a variation of the argument we have been having for years now about the Biden team’s response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. I don’t think they are pro-Israel in any way. They’re just cautious to the point of stupidity about changing long-standing status quos. It’s maddening, but they are not going to change now. Let’s hope VP Harris wins and appoints better people.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Kent:
I recall Geminid mentioned some months ago that the Biden admin could force the Netanyahu government from power, but they choose not to because it’s more important for Isrealis to choose their own leaders. Geminid is a pretty smart person and is generally well-informed. So, I assume there’s some truth to this
Assuming that’s true and I’m remembering this correctly, I think that’s total bullshit. When it comes to genocide, who cares whether Isrealis choose their own leaders or not in this instance?
Gretchen
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Bill Clinton went off script 25+ times according to reporters who could see the teleprompter. How do you know that a Palestinian protester won’t go off script and say something damaging. How will this help Dems win? Are there people who will vote for Trump bulldozing Gaza and building waterfront condos who will change their vote if Harris platforms someone who attacks her for not doing enough?
Jay
@Kent: Simply pointing out how the Biden Administration, the State Department and the entire NatSec Establishment is compromised when it comes to dealing with Israel just as they are with ruZZia.
prostratedragon
@Gretchen: Aha. So words should be accompanied by demonstration if possible.
Chet Murthy
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): “When it comes to genocide, who cares whether Isrealis choose their own leaders or not in this instance?”
Answer by analogy: You know there’s a strong taboo against assassination, right? But why should there be? Why? Because when you start doing that, you don’t know where it ends, and the blowback can be fierce.
The same thing applies here. It’s one thing to to destabilizing the governments of pissant countries that don’t -count-. But we don’t do that to our main allies, and Israel is (whether we like it or not) a main ally.
Another analogy: Do you remember when Dubya wanted to invade Iraq, and what Ton Blair told him, and why? He said that the UK would support the US unequivocally. And the reason was simple: the UK wanted to maintain “the special relationship”, and this was what Blair saw as the price of maintaining it.
You’re thinking of international relations in what one might characterize as a case-by-case basis. If Israel is doing something bad -today-, we should smack for it, -today-. But that’s not it works with allies for sure.
So for instance, can I suggest you read _Blowback_ by Chalmers Johnson? It’s about US hegemony, and what the US did and does to maintain it. In this case, he’s writing about Japan, but the lessons are widely applicable. For instance, he writes about how the US Govt ordered auto makers to not enforce parents that Japanese auto makers were infringing, b/c it was part of the price of keeping Japan on our side geopolitically in matters of defense and such.
prostratedragon
@wjca: One of the things I most admire about him.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: And what will that accomplish?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Gretchen:
Again, it doesn’t have to be a “Palestinian protester”. It could be a Dem politician like Litano mentioned. Ignoring their concerns and not letting a representative speak at the convention is a mistake imo
Bupalos
@Chet Murthy: The problem is it isn’t one guy. Israelli society is for the most part acceding to Bibi’s rule, which is somewhere to the right of Ganz and a little more than half the population and (no one seems to notice) to the left of the other half.
People in the United States are uniquely qualified and yet still almost uniquely unable to understand the degree to which 10/7 and 9/11 are indistinguishable events. When this stuff happens to a functioning society, it gets immeasurably stupider than it was the minute before it happened. And it metastacizes instantly, infectiously, immeasurably. Israel on the whole is a basket case right now. The same way the United States was a basket case after 9/11.
BTW when you do the math, 10/7 was much much much higher magnitude and reach into people’s lives than 9/11
Jay
@Chet Murthy:
Nothing. We arn’t in charge of anything here.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: I was asking about this:
Let’s assume that the State Department did this. Then what happens?
Gretchen
@wjca: thank you. So many people assume that if they don’t see something happening, nothing is happening, and why isn’t Biden applying pressure? He’s applying pressure, neither Hamas nor Israel want to stop, so the pressure isn’t working so far. Having someone yell about it at the convention isn’t going to change the incentives for Hamas and Israel. It will just make Biden’s pressure less effective, when they both think that Biden doesn’t have the backing of his government. We do know that Bibi is stalling because he knows Trump will give him more of what he wants.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: I brought up the parallel with BLM and Defund the Police up-thread. I just searched, and back in 2020 Harris, Markey, and Booker sponsored a resolution calling for the end of qualified immunity. I note that there’s been nothing on that since. Silence. What would happen if VP Harris were to make that a plank of her platform? Should she? I mean, it’s a big deal to a big part of her base; hell, it’s a big deal to me.
But she won’t, b/c she wants to actually win this election.
Litano
@Chet Murthy: I see you’ve tagged me in a few posts about electability and the dangers of taking a position here, but I’ll respond to this one before I get to bed since I think your comment at 146 speaks to this issue most directly: using US leverage to compel a ceasefire and stop the war in Gaza polls incredibly well right now. The Uncommitted movement is making the case that using US leverage to negotiate a real ceasefire here is both morally and electorally correct, and that by foreclosing this option Biden (and now Harris) are increasing the chances of a Trump win. I disagree with them on a few points; for instance, I think Israel could very well get spooked and try to instigate a regional war if they thought this was a serious prospect under a Harris administration, since they know Biden will back them to the hilt. But they’re not wrong about the polling, even with all the caveats and questions you can usually raise about question framing and sampling biases. Much like the people who insisted that abortion was so unpopular in 2022 that Dems needed to tack right or the people who insisted that polling about Biden’s liabilities was a mirage and replacing him on the ticket wouldn’t do anything to turn things in swing states, I would be very wary of accepting analyses on this issue from anyone who takes it as an unshakeable first principle that Harris would lose more voters than she would gain by moving to stop the carnage in Gaza.
@Jay: Obviously we don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors, but everything we do know suggests that Biden is not willing to rethink American’s policy towards Israel. For most of his political career Biden has been incredibly far to the right on this issue. When he came into office he maintained basically all of Trump’s policies towards the country, from the Jerusalem embassy to recognition of Golan Heights to the Pompeo Doctrine that maintained settlements in the West Bank were legal under international law and dismissed any prospect of conditioning military aid in order to slow the settlement process. But again, this isn’t new. When Begin visited the US in 1982, Biden praised Israel’s aggressive war conduct in the 1982 Lebanon war by saying “It was great! It had to be done! If attacks were launched from Canada into the United States, everyone here would have said, ‘Attack all the cities of Canada, and we don’t care if all the civilians get killed.’” Begin, himself a far-right leader who had started a paramilitary group credibly accused of pogroms and ethnic cleansing, had to clarify in the Israeli press that he didn’t support the murder of women or children (the story was not reported in English media until recently). So I think there’s a long precedent here that says Biden is specifically bad on this issue, even if other dems are unlikely to break with him too far once he steps down.
Chet Murthy
@Litano: “using US leverage to compel a ceasefire and stop the war in Gaza polls incredibly well right now.”
Was the question asked clearly in terms of “the US will abandon Israel as an ally, no longer providing security guarantees of any kind” ? B/c that’s what it would take.
Jay
@Chet Murthy:
FMA is controlled by State, funded by Congress.
State can withhold/bar US FMA to Units involved in war crimes. There are currently 2 IDF units in the Golan under such restrictions, no US weapons, no US funds, no US training.
But, like I said, it won’t happen.
Litano
@Chet Murthy: There’s pretty good polling showing that around 4 in 10 voters (including a majority of Dems surveyed) thought Israeli was committing genocide in Gaza, a poll of swing state voters showing that majorities supported conditioning aid in order to get a ceasefire, and even polling by a far right Israeli think tank that showed a narrow majority of American Jews support an arms freeze after the invasion of Rafah. I’ll try to compile some links for you in the morning if I can.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: Jay, what I’m getting at is that if State did that, there would be a -firestorm- in the US. It would eclipse everything else happening right now. The election would become all about Israel, and the Democrats’ perfidy in abandoning a key ally. The Democratic coalition would split, b/c there are lots of Dems who support Israel, and I’m not talking about only Jewish Dems.
It would be carnage in November. Carnage.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: Jay, what I’m getting at is that if State did that, there would be a -firestorm- in the US. It would eclipse everything else happening right now. The election would become all about Israel, and the Democrats’ perfidy in abandoning a key ally. The Democratic coalition would split, b/c there are lots of Dems who support Israel, and I’m not talking about only Jewish Dems.
It would be carnage in November. Carnage.
Chet Murthy
@Litano: An arms freeze isn’t enough to get Israel to stop. I mean, c’mon, can’t you see what Bibi’s doing right now? He’s trying to start a hot war with Iran, while the US still backstops him. It would take ending our alliance with Israel. And I don’t think Americans are ready for that.
P.S. Israel has -money-. They can buy weapons from elsewhere. What they cannot buy, is the US backstop.
Bupalos
@Shalimar: Yes correct I have never pied anyone.
I guess I should try just to see what the whole thing is. I admit I can’t understand it really. The idea “I want to cover my eyes…” it’s just… plenty of stuff here I think is OMFG ARE PEOPLE REALLY THIS WAY??!?! But I still want to know what it is and how people are.
Jay
@Chet Murthy:
State picks one, builds a case, informs Israel that Unit is barred.
The way it normally goes, is Israel then launches an “investigation” on the down low, once in a blue moon a prosecution, State applies retraining and exam conditions, which are basic, and if passed, they are removed from the blacklist.
It’s all kept hush hush by all sides because it’s prima facia evidence of war crimes by the Israeli Military and US complicity in War Crimes. Nobody yells about it in the Senate, period, ever. Can’t have the ICC sniffing around. Can’t have nosey people FIOA’ing State.
It’s been done in the past, regarding Israel.
It’s a pressure point that takes years for Israel to “clean up”, and in some cases, it’s closer to a decade.
So, in theory, it could be one unit in September, with a clear message sent.
No Ceasefire/moderation, Bibi thumbs his nose, unit #2 in October, etc.
It can be done, but won’t.
Fair Economist
This is the first time I pie’d somebody on the first encounter. Recommended!
Gretchen
@Jay: it has to be kept hush hush by all sides or it won’t work but you’re sure it’s not happening because you haven’t heard of it. What does hush hush mean?
SFAW
@Bupalos:Your big thing in the last thread, vis-a-vis “intergenerational wealth,” appears to be that Michelle Obama was (in your eyes) a hypocrite because her/their kids are (or would be) in the same position as Donold, etc.
Which might be valid … IF Malia and Sasha both received and misused the same wealth that Fred Sr. bestowed on his idiot spawn. But since the Obama girls haven’t received their inheritance yet, nor has either one tried to screw the other out of her inheritance (as SFB (thanks, Ruckus!) did to Fred Jr.), there just MIGHT be a difference. As far as Sasha and Malia becoming (figurative) slumlords BEFORE Barack and Michelle die, leveraging their parents’ wealth … well, I think that ain’t happening.
But I’m sure you’ll keep digging, because your super-big brain won’t accept that your apparent thesis — that Michelle’s “intergenerational wealth” comment is hypocrisy — might be just a teeny bit faulty.
ETA: And as far as “This feels like a surprising term to be emerging right now”: with your super-big brain, I would have thought you’d take Michelle’s statement(s) as rhetorical shots across the bow of TCFFG, which is pretty much what they were.
piratedan
@Chet Murthy: while I understand the Biden Administration is extremely cautious about what they do in Israel, this is kind of their modus operandi. Building in the background, diplomacy as the first options (and 2 thru 25 as well). If you want to see a parallel, just look at the long time that it’s taken to get weapons to Ukraine and they still haven’t completely taken the safeties off.
I understand the reluctance of the DNC to open themselves up to media criticism, after all, we witnessed what the press can do when it came to Joe Biden.
Would it be the “right” thing to do, I can be persuaded that yes, it is. I also believe it could be argued that it wouldn’t be the Smart thing to do. My largest fear is that allowing them to speak will open up the “Dems in Disarray” narratives, just like it could be used if they do not allow them to speak. This is an issue that doesn’t bother the GOP or really in truth, even the media. Simply because they could give a shit and because they do not care, they are free to use it as a cudgel to drive further division and allow it to ascend to being the ONLY issue that is given voice to.
Could this force Joe Biden’s hand, sure, but after how the change in candidate was just done, people being people, do you think he changes tack now? I could make the argument that no amount of pressure that Biden could bring will be enough to cause Netanyahu to do the right thing. I also would speculate that HAMAS could see that if the US backs off of the weaponizing of Israel that they would be free to continue doing what they are doing because they don’t give a shit about Palestinians either.
About the only “solution” I could see is a United Nations intervention with a return to the “old” borders and a two-state solution. How do you sell that to the world and still get the people who authorized the atrocities (on each side) to the point where they have to face responsibilities for the crimes committed?
I’m all for not giving up heavy ordinance. Willing to see what happens if we do.
Jay
@Gretchen:
If you google it, there are currently 2 IDF Brigades still under Leahy Sanctions, out of 10.
Ever hear of it?
Ever seen a Rep or Senator stand up in Congress and bitch about it?
Ever seen somebody from Israel bitch about it?
That’s what I mean about “hush, hush”
Politicians in both the US and Israel keep their mouths shut about it, the MSM keeps their mouths shut about it, State buries it in whitewashed annual reports, only a few Media, like 927 report on it.
David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch
I love the colorful clothes she wears
And the way the sunlight plays upon her hair
I hear the sound of a gentle word
On the wind that lifts her perfume through the air
I’m pickin’ up good vibrations
She’s giving me the excitations
Ksmiami
@Bupalos: what Michelle was articulating and what resonates with the key base of the Democratic Party is that the systemic racist policies of the past like redlining have kept black Americans on the back foot in terms of building stable wealth since the end of the Civil War. Unlike Trump who was given a mile head start in a 1000 meter race. The threat of GOP policies to black Americans cannot be overstated.
Darkrose
This just doesn’t make sense to me. If Hamas and Israel aren’t interested in a ceasefire–and all indications are that neither side currently is–how, exactly, is the US supposed to “compel a ceasefire”? The assumption that the US is the only party with agency here is wild.
Immediately after October 7th, Biden told Bibi not to make the same mistake the US did after 9/11. Bibi promptly made all of the same mistakes. Meanwhile, the current head of Hamas khas stated that if a hundred thousand civilians have to die for the cause, he’s willing to make that sacrifice. What, exactly, is the US supposed to do to make these assholes stop killing Palestinian civilians when both sides apparently see them as collateral damage?
ColoradoGuy
The whole I/P discussion ignores what a powerful nation Israel is. Israel has 200~300 nuclear weapons of very advanced design. It is the only country in the Mideast at full 1st-world economic development. All of its neighbors are poorer … Egypt in particular, but it’s not like Syria or Lebanon are economic powerhouses either. “Failed State” is closer to the mark. Israel is a modern nuclear-armed nation surrounded by systemic poverty.
Yes, the USA can cut off US-made weapons. That trick only works once. After that, Israel buys from other suppliers, and it can afford to pay top price.
A nation like that, surrounded by historically hostile neighbors, is not easily influenced. What’s to stop them buying any number of weapons from France, South Korea, or even Russia? If we cut off weapons, so what? They can buy more elsewhere. It is not a poor country, and their money is good.
They are actually in quite a strong position, with a lobby in the USA that is even stronger than the NRA. Bibi, like Putin, wants to help Trump, and both despise Democrats, no matter who they are. This leaves any Democratic administration in a very delicate position with limited room to maneuver. The USA might be a superpower, but Israel is far from a client state, and has a lot of agency. Yes, they are de facto fascist. Hamas is even worse, and has been that way for decades.
David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch
Devastating news. God give me strength to type this: J Lo files for divorce. Her fourth marriage ends after two years.
Obviously Biden is to blame.
Jay
@Darkrose:
All of the “players” involved, from Israel, Egypt to the KSA, have various levels and areas of reliance on the US.
Only Hamas, Syria and Iran do not, but the US does have some weight it can use on Iran.
So basically, the big dog at the table is the US.
Can it “compel” a ceasefire, nope, but it can make life miserable for everyone else at the table.
opiejeanne
@Fair Economist: I’m about to pie someone other than the troll.
I am tired of the thread being derailed by other people. Good night all.
Ksmiami
All that matters is getting Kamala elected. If the Israelis and Palestinians want to keep killing each other and achieve nothing, well that’s on them. I’m sad for the kids but I care about our small d democracy here first.
Citizen Alan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I don’t think we have leverage. I really don’t. I think that Netanyahu/Likud and Hamas are in a mutually parasitic relationship in which the leaders of each group depend on the actions of the other side to maintain power. And I also think that both those factions find it valuable to their cause to undermine the Democrats and seek to get Trump reelected and in no small part because of Putin’s influence.
What exactly do people think would happen if we did what the strongest Gaza supporters want and cut off military aid to Israel? Because my expectation is that Hamas would renew its attacks on Israelis and the GOP and domestic media would attack Democrats for being “pro-Hamas.” If we cut off aid at this juncture, Democrats get the blame for every bad thing that happens to Israel afterwards.
Yutsano
I’m going to say this just once.
Bibi. Does. Not. Want. A. Cease. Fire.
If the war ends, he loses his coalition. That will trigger an election that he will lose. An Israeli prime minister is immune from prosecution while in office. Netanyahu is sacrificing the blood of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and thousands of soldiers just to evade justice. That’s it. He’s acting in his own rational self-interest. Any other motivations are irrelevant.
Citizen Alan
@Bupalos: The parallels between 10/7 and 9/11 are compelling, IMO. A right wing government for ill-defined reasons actively ignored an anticipated terrorist attack, leading to much embarrassment for the government, which responds with disproportionate violence and demagogues political rivals who don’t want to go along? It’s basically history repeated as farce at this point.
glc
Popehat (with some inspriation from DougJ, one imagines):
Aussie Sheila
@Ksmiami:
Yes. Her point was easily seen if a person wasn’t either deliberately obtuse or emotionally unable to process something not their liking.
Re the collective punishment of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
The abominable treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza has been a running sore since the Occupation of the West Bank and the de facto permission granted Israel by the U.S. since the early 1970s to behave any way they please against Palestinians and their rights and aspirations to self determination.
All these chickens are now coming home to roost in the middle of a very important US election.
Let’s face it.
Biden has been the best domestic policy US President in my lifetime, but he has been caught by the ineffable US romance with Israel at a time when it is quite clear that Israeli politics and society has moved to a very dark place.
Paradoxically, this movement has been aided and abetted by the very forces in the US that now find themselves discombobulated by the disgusting actions of the IDF in Gaza.
Biden is an emblematic politician for the US romance with Israel.
When Harris wins, this garbage must stop.
Until then, a Palestinian speaker at the DNC won’t change squat, except to unleash a storm against the current administration and against the Dem ticket.
After the inauguration, the US either puts Israel in its place, or it will be clear it supports genocidal collective punishment except if it is committed by Russia.
More support for Ukraine, less for Israel would be a useful and ethical FP position for a new U.S. administration.
brantl
@Kent: Stealing my ass, it was always ours; those lying sacks of shit were stealing it the whole time.
Aussie Sheila
@Aussie Sheila:
Oh and before I forget. An embargo of US arms to Israel today will leave the IDF with plenty to kill another 40,000 Gazans without skipping a beat.
An arms embargo means squat.
What is needed is a clear demarcation between Israel’s claims regarding Palestinian land and political and social rights, and the ability of Israeli operations in the US polity.
Israel has played similar games here. I have been witness to them in the Australian TU movement.
They are very professional and very dangerous to any emancipationist movement anywhere.
But without assured US government support they could do squat.
Fix that and the rest follows.
Kay
@Litano:
FWIW, I agree with you 100%’
I think it’s shameful that the Democratic Party won’t let the Palestinian lawmaker speak – nor has there been any advocacy at all for the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians who have been slaughtered with weapons eagerly provided by the US.
It’s a stain and in 20 years no one will admit to supporting these war crimes.and everyone will consider Democrats shutting down any pro -Palestinian political speech a terrible decision.
Even the Biden Administration recognizes how bad it makes Democrats (and the US) look – they had to send Blinken out yesterday to make a weak reference to Palestinian civilians because he ignored them in yet another press conference the day prior. They care so little they have to be prodded to even mention Palestinians exist.
Obviously the US has decided as a matter of policy that Palestinians are worth less than Israelis. The idea that we could somehow be good faith neutrals in a negotiation is ludicrous – our government simply doesnt care about Palestinian civilians at all – it’s why we have supported Israel turning Gaza into a parking lot – dropping more bombs than Dresden and the London blitz combined on a population of 2 million.
It’s a tough truth but a truth nonetheless- the US has done absolutely nothing to aid Palestinian civilians in any way. A total humanitarian failure on our part.
I hope Harris replaces Bidens whole State Department team – they haven’t acted in good faith on this from the beginning and they have gaslighted the US public over and over again. Almost nothing they say publicly is true at this point.
Aussie Sheila
@Kay:
Agree completely. Unless the US untangles itself from Israel any hope it has of countering Russia, China and other bogeymen in the global south is risible.
And not just there.
In Australia the US alliance is coming to a simmering boil. Our current ALP federal government rests on a number of electorates where Muslim votes are vital. Between US support for IDF atrocities and the unconscionable AUKUS deal that is deeply unpopular even with ‘conservative’ ALP politicians, this issue risks political problems for the left in Australia.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
Not letting any Palestinian American speak because they are Palestinian or Muslim is a stain on the Democratic Party – a truly regrettable and bigoted decision and one no one will admit to supporting in 20 years
They gave speaking slots to Republicans who don’t support women’s rights but blocked Palestinian Democrats from speaking. Shameful.
Not even Egypt finds the Biden team credible anymore, and the US bribes Egypt with billions of dollars a year just to go along with whatever we do. That’s what a joke these negotiations are.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
We’re tolerant and inclusive except for Palestinian Democrats – we don’t let them appear or speak, although we petulantly demand they vote for us while we’re eagerly wiping out an entire population of them in Gaza.
An indefensible position for the Democratic Party to take and one they’ll be apologizing for and ashamed of for the next 50 years.
Aussie Sheila
@Kay:
I agree with you and I understand and sympathise with your outrage.
But at this point it simply doesn’t matter any more.
Political leverage now needs to turn to the composition of a Harris/Walz FP team at this point.
The Biden FP team needs to be sacked and a new one appointed that won’t take shit anymore from the Israelis.
Believe me, even if people here don’t agree with my politics, on this issue, the US has no friends anywhere outside the various FP beltways. Which are useless once elections get going in polities where the vote is free, fair and honestly counted.
No Australian ALP government is going down to defeat in order to defend US sentimentality towards Israel.
Kay
It doesn’t matter if Trump is “pressuring” Netanyahu to turn down the deal the US said Netanyahu had already approved
Netanyahu and the rest of the Israeli government will never agree to a deal unless they can occupy Gaza permanently. That’s their demand – extend the occupation to Gaza. That’s why there’s no deal. Not even Egypt will agree to that. Which Israel knows – they’re going to do it anyway while the Biden Administration weakly protests.
Aussie Sheila
@Kay:
Well if the US government can’t change Bibi’s and the current Israeli coalition government’s mind, then they can’t because they aren’t willing to leverage US power to its max.
A new administration needs to understand from the get go that US FP towards Israel needs to change course stat. It’s undermining important alliances everywhere and emboldening anti democratic forces across the world.
I’m ideological but pragmatic. Maximum pressure now on the new putative administration is far more effective than token efforts at a DNC appearance, which would be met with hostility by conservative Dems anyway. This sentimental Israel fixation by the US needs to end. Among other things, it’s undermining support for Ukraine’s efforts to defend itself against Putinist Russia.
The Thin Black Duke
@Aussie Sheila: Bottom line, if Harris/Walz don’t win, everything will get worse for everyone everywhere, not just in Gaza.
Kay
@The Thin Black Duke:
Democrats would prefer to have anti choice Republicans speak on the stage rather than allowing a single Palestinian American to speak.
Ludicrous and shameful behavior
We’re diverse unless you happen to be Muslim or Palestinian – then you may not appear or speak.
Liz Fucking Cheney we embrace, but Palestinian Americans who are ELECTED Democrats need not apply.
AnonPhenom
Thiel’s gonna have Vance drop out “to spend more time with his family” clearing the way for Trump/Kennedy announcement Friday.
These guys are as subtle as a fart in a space suite.
Kay
@The Thin Black Duke:
The people who say this must not be following Gaza. It’s already a parking lot. We’ve slaughtered 2% of the civilian population – 12000 of whom are children and now we’re getting ready to give Israel the green light to occupy Gaza, which is Israel’s newest demand.
It can’t get worse for Palestinians. Everything we said Trump would do we’ve done.
Aussie Sheila
@The Thin Black Duke:
Yes, up to a point. But if a Harris/Walz admin doesn’t change course fast and absolutely then the Palestinian demands for justice becomes a new Dem administration version of the Vietnam war. God help us all if the US continues to allow Israel to behave as the spoiled murderous brat US indulgence for fifty years has encouraged them to become.
Enough already.
The Thin Black Duke
@Aussie Sheila: Yeah, but the point is still the point: Harris/Walz have to win the presidency first before the United States is able to do a course correction regarding the Middle East.
Aussie Sheila
@The Thin Black Duke:
Of course. But if they don’t then the convo above becomes meaningless. The GOP would be absolutely worse for the Palestinians and their rights and aspirations. But what’s new?
I believe that the Dems will win in November. So the real question is what they can be forced to do to change course re Gaza and the rights of Palestinians generally. That’s where the Dem left needs to be smart and strategic.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
No “course correction” after Biden will be possible. Once Israel permanently occupies Gaza with the Biden Administration’s blessing that will be impossible to undo.
Palestinians get nothing out of the deal. Not even the “ceasefire” is enforceable. Blinken gave away the store – he’s negotiating with himself. He’s made concession after concession to Israel and with each one they demand more. Once Biden gives them Gaza there will be nothing left to demand. The US will have capitulated completely. Irrevocable. Permanent.
Aussie Sheila
@AnonPhenom:
Fabulous if true. It would reduce that campaign to a laughing stock even more than it already is.
Yannow, if there was preferential voting, multiple parties permitted and honest electoral administration in the US none of this would be be a problem. Let some numbskull run.
In a deeply organised and properly run democracy idiots can often be elected, but they can’t upturn the whole polity. It’s amazing to me still, after all these years, that an attempt to overturn a federal/national election by the head of state as happened in the US on Jan 6, still hasn’t occasioned the slightest bit of political introspection from anywhere in the US.
It was an astonishing display of ‘third world’ politics, but instead of looking at the institutions and structures that permitted such an outrage against democracy, the whole event has become a ‘morality play’ in which the goodies are arrayed against the baddies.
Its deeply depressing and scary tbh.
Aussie Sheila
@Kay:
I disagree. Nothing is permanent if the powerful decides it isn’t. In this relationship Israel is as powerful as US domestic political forces permit. The reality is popular US politics really haven’t been required to attend to this outrage for fifty years. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
At a most inconvenient time for the Democratic Party.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
Oh please. They won’t let a single Palestinian American Democrat speak. They’re going to work on behalf of Palestinians in Gaza? My ass. They won’t even allow one on the stage and she’s an elected Democrat and an American
It’s rank bigotry. She’s being excluded because she’s the wrong ethnicity and religion.
Aussie Sheila
@Kay:
No, she’s being excluded because the issue is dynamite for the coalition that is the Democratic Party, particularly in this election cycle.
Again, the real issue is the leverage that grassroots Dems have over a Harris/Walz admin on this issue after November.
Gaza has been reduced to a parking lot with the acquiescence of the US since October 2023.
Unless there is the will and capacity on the part of the Dem grassroots to insist on a change in US indulgence of Israeli atrocities, nothing will change. Under this or any future U.S. administration.
A speaking slot at the DNC won’t change it. It’s decades deep.
ColoradoGuy
@Aussie Sheila: As high school graduates in the US know, the problem is the Slave State Electoral College. In the 19th Century, the malign result was the end of Reconstruction (Federal occupation) in the South, leading almost immediately to the Jim Crow era (which lasted for another eighty years).
In the 21st Century, it led to GW Bush and the deaths of 500,000 Iraqis. Only sixteen years later, it led to Trump, a corrupt and theocratic Supreme Court, and the deaths of 400,000 Americans from Covid-19.
The country would look radically different absent the EC. Reconstruction would have gone on for another decade or two, reshaping the fossilized oligarchic economy of the Old South. Neither GWB nor Trump would have won. The country would be moderately center-left instead of much further to the right.
But getting rid of this foul institution … yeah, not so easy. In fact, a pretty big lift. The wretched Senate can’t even get rid of the idiotic Filibuster rule, which is nowhere in the Constitution and is merely a Senate custom without force in law.
The Thin Black Duke
If Trump wins the election, American soldiers will be in the Middle East.
It’s inevitable because the goddamn Republicans love starting endless meaning wars. That’s how things get worse.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
She submitted her remarks for review, just like every other proposed speaker. She supports Harris. She’s an elected Democrat.
She was refused because she’s Palestinian and Muslim. She’s the wrong ethnicity and religion so therefore barred from speaking. No one outside of Blue MAGA will see this as anything other than bigotry.
Maybe Democrats will stop discriminating against Palestinians and Muslims sometime in the future – progress happens sometimes even with institutional opposition to it. For now though, it’s a stain on the Party.
Kay
@Aussie Sheila:
it’s especially obscene because Chicago has the largest Palestinian American population in the country.
Democrats came to where they live and excluded them. Gross behavior. Cowardly.
Aussie Sheila
@ColoradoGuy:
Well here’s where I get frustrated with US Dems, especially putative ‘progressives’. The filibuster is as good as a Dem majority permits.
It’s a self indulgent, reactionary nonsense.
Overturn it with one vote, then ram through legislation that guarantees the right to vote for every citizen, mandates uniform and fair mail in and early voting and mandates independent redistricting commissions everywhere for federal offices.
Then follow with legislation that limits the ability of the USSC to determine justiciable issues not permitted by Congress.
A lot of the roadblocks in Congress exist because enough elected Dems find them convenient. Find representatives that reject that path and you will get reform.
Remember, when you fight, you win!
Ken
Ah, for the good old days when we could tell people about talk.politics.mideast.
JAFD
@Jay: All too true.
Meself, in ’67, was a high school junior. Good friend of mine had seen Lawrence of Arabia one too many times, was willing to bet $25 on the Arab militaries. Took my winnings, had a memorable celebration at our junior prom*, spent a few decades being grateful to the IDF …
But Netanyahu has now decided to “make a desert, and call it peace” (to quote our Latin teacher) . Must, thinking about the Middle East, ‘update our priors’. Not always easy.
*In ’67, $25 was a good chunk of change.
Kay
Americans don’t give a shit about Palestinian civilians. No one would even notice a pro Palestinian speech. The civilian casualties are barely covered in US media.
It would have been so easy to do the right thing and not discriminate – zero risk and it’s the right thing to do. Shame we chickened out. All pain, no gain. Dumb decision.
Kay
@The Thin Black Duke:
Goalpost move! Now it’s not for the good of Palestinians it’s because Trump will deploy troops.
This is worse than the Biden Administration goalpost move where we went from “ceasefire” to “continue the slaughter indefinitely – Israel cannot permanently occupy all of Gaza, just some of it”
JAFD
@Aussie Sheila: Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes once said “Sometimes, a page of history is worth a volume of logic.”
Wise to keep in mind when observing governance of the USA.
JAFD
Having dined at the Charcoal Pit, can state that President Biden is man of good taste. (But now I’m craving a chocolate milkshake before breakfast)
Is on US 202, on the driving-into-Wilmington side (202 makes half-loop around Philly, compass directions vary). Worth a visit by the hungry.
JML
The conflict in Israel is seriously complex, and every time someone brings up a supposedly simple solution, it’s immediately challenged for not considering a wise array of other impacts. Correctly. It’s an incredibly difficult and thorny problem with a litany of bad actors all across the spectrum. It doesn’t mean that things can’t improve, that solutions can’t be found, but it does mean that it’s likely to be slow and frustrating and requires a lot of patience and nuance and for people to be ushered off the stage by their own constituencies.
The DNC is not a good place to working through exceptionally complicated issues requiring the highest degrees of nuance where there are emotionally charged inflection points that can easily turn into a flashpoint as soon as one person uses the wrong word on TV.
There are 30 uncommitted delegates out of 4000. That’s less than 1%. They’ve been pushing a petition to get what they want (including opportunities to speak from the stage, etc) and claim to have 200 delegate signatures. Having done petition drives like this, odds are claiming 200 signatures means you’re rounding up. But even taking 200 at face value, it’s 5%.
These aren’t huge numbers. There isn’t a groundswell of support from the floor. And this would be the most difficult, risky high-wire act possible. Saying “they’ll let their speeches be vetted” doesn’t solve the problem: how the $#@^$% do you even vet the speech? My god, getting to agreement on what isn’t even ok isn’t something that anyone in charge wants to try to do in a matter of days, and this would be in a matter of hours. Beyond that, you’re making a huge risk that someone would go off script.
Right now everything is clicking at this convention and the Harris team is on a huge roll. But the media is desperately waiting and hopefully for a miss to write about. The jackals at the gates hoping for a fail.
Seems like a bad time to take a huge risk on one of the most complicated and difficult geopolitical situations in the world.
I understand that some people see this as a very clear moral question, and are very comfortable making declarative statements about it free of complication or nuance. I think more people don’t find it quite so simple, and are deeply uncomfortable with the potential consequences of supposedly simple solutions.
The Thin Black Duke
@JML: Thank you.
evodevo
@oldster: Yeah…I was struck by how frail he looked/sounded. Hillary is a definite contrast – I don’t know if it’s his heart health issues or what, but I haven’t heard him for quite a while, and it WAS shocking to me..
Weftage
@The Thin Black Duke: @JML:
Seconded.
Another Scott
@JML: +1
Too many grand political solution thinkers don’t look even one additional step ahead. If it were simple, it would have been solved already.
To be clear – I get it. Bibi and the IDF and the monsters in Israel’s government and Israeli settlers and voters who support them are all monsters. But we do not control their actions. And we have very strong national interests in Israel continuing to exist and in the region not blowing up into an even worse conflagration.
Politics and diplomacy are slow and messy and imperfect. Especially when bad-faith actors are determined to continue the conflict…
Peace and comfort to the innocents.
Hoping that voters understand the stakes and choose the more sensible path (even if it’s not the ideal one).
Cheers,
Scott.
Geminid
@Yutsano: A small correction to your well-founded comment: a sitting Prime Minister is not immune from prosecution. Netanyahu’s trial on 3 corruption counts is still ongoing despite the war.
The problem is that the trial has been ongoing in fits and halts since it began in May of 2021. The prosecution presented the last of over 200 witnesses last month. Now Netanyahu’s defense team is preparing to bring theirs.
If the trial ends in a conviction next year, appeals might carry the matter into 2027. But the conviction would bar Netanyahu from the post of Prime Minister.
However, Netanyahu still hopes to fix his case through “judicial reform” legislation. This is why he formed this rotten government to begin with. That was in December of 2022, after he won a very close election on November 1.
Kay
@JML:
The Democratic Party had a choice whether or not to exclude the elected Palestinian Democrat – that’s not complicated at all. That’s an American political party excluding an American ethnic and religious minority.
Im not supporting that. No one will admit to supporting it in a decade. It’s a bigoted, indefensible act.
They chose to exclude her because she’s Palestinian and a Muslim. The “compromise” to admit her by the back door for a “private meeting” (hide her ) is just the icing on the insulting cake.
I hoped Harris would change course on Biden’s disastrous capitulation to all of Israel’s demands. I now know she won’t, and we’ll be handing Gaza, and Gaza’s, over to Israel to do whatever Israel wants to do them.
How do you lose Egypt? Christ, we BOUGHT Egypt. Now not even they will back this atrocity? That’s a new low for the US.
A Muslim ban at the Democratic convention. Shameful. We’ll carry this ugly mark a long time.
Kay
@Geminid:
Netanyahu is more popular in Israel now than he was at the start of Bidens diplomacy.
An utter failure. All Biden did is make Netanyahu more powerful. God help those Palestinian civilians as Israel goes even further racist Right. They are going to be annihilated. With our bombs and our money and our political leaders support.
Geminid
@Kay: Noga Tarnopolsky posted the results of a poll of Israelis taken last weekend:
This poll obviously does not speak to Netanyahu’s popularity, but it says something about how Israelis view the larger matter now at hand.
You say you consider these ceasefire negotiations a “joke,” but Israelis do not and neither do the major regional actors.They know that every major war Israel has fought since the first one in 1947-48 has ended with a ceasefire which was then ratified by a UN Security Council resolution. This one will be no different.
wjca
@David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch:
Great to see a man who knows the classics!
wjca
Bull. Seriously, bull.
The current administration has decided the Palestinians are worth less than preserving democracy in America. Nothing more.
JML
@Kay: there’s no Muslim ban at the DNC and you know it. Just stop. Your sneering contempt for anyone who disagrees with you and self-righteous BS do nothing but turn people away from the causes you supposedly support.
Kay
@Geminid:
Everyone knows they want a hostage deal. Well, they want their hostages back but they also want to occupy Gaza.
You know perfectly well that’s not an opinion on Netanyahu.
He’s more popular than he’s ever been. He’s not going anywhere. That country is going even further Right. They’ll increase their far Right majorities now that the United States has given them a green light and even Democrats back this slaughter.
Democrats in the US were the last hope for Gazans and we’ve abandoned them. The slaughter will escalate.
Kay
@JML:
I don’t care if you join my “cause” I’d oppose this bigotry if I was the only person opposing it.
it’s indefensible to bar her from speaking. Cowardly. It’s solely based on her ethnicity and religion.
Such a dumb, chickenshit move. It was so easy and they couldn’t even do this one small decent thing and let her speak. Not change policy, not work for a ceasefire, just let a PalestinianAmerican mention the 50,000 dead civilian Palestinians. We couldn’t even do that. Too dangerous! She might upset bigots!
Geminid
@Kay: “More popular now he’s ever been”?!!
Netanyahu was much more popular on October 6 than he is now, and he was underwater even back then.
Litano
@Chet Murthy: Catching up with the thread after I went to bed last night, and I just wanted to say I 100% agree with you that Bibi is trying to start a regional war. I wrote about this at #145, when I said that
The problem here, and the thing you haven’t noted in your comment, is that Bibi is doing this despite the fact that Biden has moved heaven and earth to facilitate this war. In a normal international relationship, even a fraught or troubled one, cooperation from one actor is generally rewarded with cooperation from the other when both parties also have the option to defect instead in the future. The Biden administration has given billions of dollars in weapons Israel, stationed aircraft carriers in the Red Sea to protect against reprisals from Iran, fought the Houthi blockade with Operation Prosperity Guardian, run interference on diplomatic and legal efforts to end the conflict or otherwise curb Israeli aggression through the UN, done incredible damage to the made-up-but-nevertheless-incredibly-precious fiction of an “international rules-based order” by selling weapons to a country obviously carrying out war crimes in violation of both national and international law, and generally made themselves look weak at home and abroad by insisting they want a ceasefire and declaring that Israel must do everything in its power to protect civilians only for Israel to deliberately sabotage the negotiation process and continue an incredibly indiscriminate campaign of slaughter in Gaza. Israel has rewarded this loyalty with missiles over Beirut, bombs in Iran, and a full-court press using its PR apparatus making the case that the Dems are betraying Israel and should be replaced with Republicans.
The point I’m making is that Israel is will continue to work towards inciting a regional war no matter what we do, because Netanyahu and his allies want that war for a number of regions. Importantly, one of those reasons is that starting a regional war this fall would hurt Biden and help Trump. Steadfastly ignoring these facts and pretending that Israel is just a good-faith ally fighting this war for normal reasons only plays into their attempts to start a regional war, since it upholds the fiction that Israel has foreign policy goals that involve restoring a state of peace rather than radically expanding the war and makes it that much more politically difficult to ever disentangle ourselves in the future.
@JML: I haven’t been following the convention so closely that I’ve seen every speech, so it’s possible I’m missing someone, but I at least have not seen a single Muslim speaker (or at least one who spoke about being Muslim or wore visible religious garb like a hijab) other than Keith Ellison. Ellison, for better or worse, is a total party insider who was never going to say anything besides the anodyne “we hear you, protesters” line that he went with. Given how much the Dems have historically tried to highlight speakers from various marginalized groups that have suffered under Trump, it’s totally plausible to me that this DNC’s organizers decided to avoid featuring Muslim speakers because they were worried about a “dems in disarray” moment and then they threw in Ellison as a totally safe bid at placating Muslim voters who could also speak to Walz as governor. Hell, in this very thread I have people telling me that it’s too dangerous to let a Palestinian speak because they might go off-script and criticize Biden’s policy in Gaza. Does anyone who thinks this risk is real enough to deny a Palestinian speaker a slot at the DNC really believe that a risk-averse party doing this same cost-benefit analysis might have similar fears about a speaker of Jordanian descent, or Pakistani descent, or really any Muslim of good conscience who’s concerned with the life and death of others in their faith community?
Litano
I guess the last thing I’ll say is that Harris hasn’t really given any indication that she’ll be all that different on this issue. Muslim voters I know are incredibly distraught about the war in Gaza, but they all understand how terrible Trump would be. I could say that they want to feel good about their candidate just like all of us want to feel good about the candidates we vote for, and I think that would be understandable to anyone in this community who’s had to push the lever for a squishy Dem who’s equivocated on abortion, or labor rights, or whatever other issues you value. But I think this undersells the despair that these people feel, and the incredible sacrifice we’re asking them to make by voting for a continuation of the Biden-Harris administration that’s facilitated this slaughter without any indication that things under Harris will be that different.
Like I’ve said in other threads here, I have a Palestinian ex who I still talk to from time to time. According the last update I saw from her on social media she’s now lost double-digit family members in Gaza, none of them combatants and 4 of them children. I have no idea how you can live through something like that and walk around all day knowing that you’ll basically be forced to reward a group of people who facilitated it with your vote, but she’s managed to do so as far as I can tell.
Obviously a hard commitment to cutting off weapons and diplomatic cover would be the correct stance in a total moral vacuum w/o electoral politics, but if the Harris campaign wanted to be more pragmatic and cautious there are lots of other things they could do to reassure these voters. Commit to resuming funding to UNRWA as soon as the statute barring it expires in March 2025. Say that you’ll end the US’s security counsel veto on the UN resolution to make Palestine a full member state. These decisions are small enough that it’s unlikely that they can be spun into existential stories of Dem betrayal that will convince a critical mass of undecided voters to pull the lever for Trump, but they would go a long way towards reassuring those members of our coalition who want to believe that Harris will actually work to end this conflict. The problem here is that historically Dems have sided with Israel over Palestine both because they feared the political consequences of not doing so and because they thought Israel’s treatment of Palestinians was basically ok and blessing it was necessary for our foreign policy commitments in the region. From the outside looking in it’s difficult to distinguish these motivations from one another, and there a lot of really despondent voters right now who would appreciate a clear signal that Harris understands the humanity of Palestinians and the worth of their lives even if she’s not willing to completely break with the administration during this delicate moment.