Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Radicalized white males who support Trump are pitching a tent in the abyss.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

The real work of an opposition party is to hold the people in power accountable.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

No one could have predicted…

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

When they say they are pro-life, they do not mean yours.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Republicans: “Abortion is murder but you can take a bus to get one.” Easy peasy.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Washington Post Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

Petty moves from a petty man.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / News of the Weird

News of the Weird

by | 246 Comments

This post is in: 

Mike Lindel and Charlie Kirk are “undercover reporters” in disguise at the DNC, and they’re acting, well, weird.

Lindel, who shaved off his mustache and put on sunglasses and a hat so nobody would recognize him (as if), tried to “debate” Knowa, who’s a 12-year-old boy attending the convention and building a presence on social media as an influencer.  Lindel got in his face, but pretty much got owned by a 12-year-old:

Taking questions from the Democratic influencer, Lindell refused to cite sources for his election denial claims.

“They just found 257,000 votes … that are missing from the 2020 election,” Lindell shouted at the child.

“So your source is ‘trust me bro?’” Knowa shot back. “Alright, you’re full of crap.”

Kirk had a short encounter with the head of the young Democrats in Georgia.

Parker Short, the president of Young Democrats of Georgia, had an encounter with MAGA weird at the DNC, which went viral online. He was taped confronting Charlie Kirk, the founder of the Trump-hyping Turning Point USA, over Kirk’s false claims that Trump won the 2020 election. Kirk, avoiding the question, instead invoked a transphobic meme — asking liberals “what is a woman?” — in hopes of throwing Short off his game. Short, in response, declared that it’s “weird” to ask that, and walked away.

When speaking to Salon the next day, Short was still angry about the encounter. “The weirdest question ever,” he declared. “You know what a woman is? Our next president, Kamala Harris is a woman.”

That’s from a piece by Amanda Marcotte which is worth reading in full.

Speaking of “What is a woman?” here’s Matt Walsh in disguise:

News of the Weird

Anyway, these idiots are so deep into huffing each other’s farts that they apparently think they’ll catch some delegates handing out estrogen injections or coupons for gender reassignment surgery on the convention floor, and god damn they’re going to be there for it.  Presumably they’re taking a cue from the interviewers who would attend a Trump rally to take pictures of people in diapers or holding JD Vance sperm sample cups, and record them advocating the mass extermination of immigrants.    Unfortunately for these secret agent men, the delegates at the DNC aren’t shitty fascists like the average Trump rally attendee,  so at worst they’re going to get a picture of someone in a funny hat.

(Missed Knowa getting Kirk on the record saying the Civil Rights Act was a mistake.)

Reader Interactions

246Comments

  3. 3.

    HumboldtBlue

    Knowa is living his best life, and the series of photos with notable Democrats and supporters continues to grow. He’s a fun follow.

  7. 7.

    scav

    So tonight he’ll attend wearing Groucho glasses after revealing his newest cunning disguise on all social channels?

  8. 8.

    twbrandt

    Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson has a video out in which she answers angry tweets about the election. It’s a good vid and she is really quite funny.

  9. 9.

    The Kropenhagen Interpretation

    Any front pagers free, please? I tried to change my nym earlier and was unable to get approval.

    I would be much obliged. The post is on the “Con man’s gonna con” open thread.

  10. 10.

    Chris

    @rikyrah:

    He got owned by a 12 year old 😒😒😒

    Me, an edgy teenager who demands Serious and Adult entertainment: “Oh, come on!  This is ridiculous!  How could the Space Nazi Overlords Of An Entire Galaxy get their asses kicked by an army of teddy bears?”

    Me, a grown adult who’s spent a decade and a half witnessing the sheer patheticness of fascism even in its triumphant years: “The Space Nazi Overlords Of An Entire Galaxy would totally get their asses kicked by an army of teddy bears.”

  12. 12.

    RaflW

    I won’t echo the lines of attack too precisely, because why give ’em airtime, but among the grotesque and deeply mean things the right is doing is attacking adorable teenager Gus Walz. And one of the bizarro-world attacks has to do with the age Tim was when he and Gwen conceived their second kid.

    The very creepy weirdness, like the JDV ‘sperm cups’, questioning the ‘freshness’ of Tim’s uhhh, issuance, etc. SO f—ing weird!

    “Mind your own damn business,” delivered with Tim Walz’s passion, is the absolute rejoinder. I loved that he just looked incredulous as he talked about keeping the GOP out of everyone’s bedrooms!

  15. 15.

    Michael Bersin

    How the @#$% did they get on the convention floor? It’s difficult enough for actual delegates – who have to show ID and sign in each day for their floor credential at their state delegation.

  16. 16.

    RaflW

    @MattF: Not to be too incredibly gross, but I guess I will. That trout mouth looked like it belonged in the skankiest of interstate offramp sex shops. And like JDV would be first to stick his couch-botherer into it.

  18. 18.

    Betsy

    Is there anything more good, old-fashioned fun than trolling Republicans?

    ETA: especially when they came there to troll you

  19. 19.

    dmsilev

    holding JD Vance sperm sample cups

    I’m sure they’ll figure out something, but it’s hard to imagine anything weirder than that episode.

  20. 20.

    japa21

    Unfortunately for these secret agent men, the delegates at the DNC aren’t shitty fascists like the average Trump rally attendee, so at worst they’re going to get a picture of someone in a funny hat.

    Actually, for them they are fortunate. Someone trying to do that at the RNC would have suffered severe injuries.

  22. 22.

    Almost Retired

    Although I swear I have better things to do, I’m watching Trump’s border remarks in Cochise County, Arizona.  It’s a deeply disturbing (but low energy) recitation of crimes committed against white blonde women by “criminals” and “psychos” let in because of Comrade Kamala’s (mispronounced) open borders.

    It’s dark and creepy and……just weird.  THIS is their counter-programming to a joy-themed DNC?  They’d be better off live-streaming JD Vance fucking a couch on Only Fans.  I can’t imagine what it must be like to be these people and exist in the world where you find this message appealing.

  23. 23.

    Chris

    @RaflW:

    The very creepy weirdness, like the JDV ‘sperm cups’, questioning the ‘freshness’ of Tim’s uhhh, issuance, etc. SO f—ing weird!

    Shades of Ross Douthat’s obsessive crusade to prove that Sarah Palin’s latest kid was really her grandkid.

    (I swear to God that making me feel any sympathy for Sarah Palin is the worst thing that guy’s ever done).

  24. 24.

    SatanicPanic

    I applaud this kid for being interested in national politics, but I don’t think we should be putting 12 year olds in the spotlight like this. It’s cringe. I mean, look I’m sure he’s got some good ideas and a quick wit, but I’d prefer he reach voting age before I have to pay attention to him.

    And if he ends up being around Republicans like Walsh I fear for his safety.

  25. 25.

    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?

    @RaflW: He would have been what? 43? Seems like he was A LOT younger than Trump when Barron was conceived. Like over a decade younger. That is one weird line of attack, and emphasizes the fact that they WON’T EVER “mind their own damn business.”

  27. 27.

    Chris

    @Almost Retired:

    THIS is their counter-programming to a joy-themed DNC?

    To be fair, the party bases are driven by different things.  Democrats require constant doses of hopium.  Republicans require constant doses of existential dread about increasingly weird shit.  As personified by the fact that their last two presidential-level rock stars were Barack Obama and Donald Trump respectively.

    It’s weird as hell, but it is what drives their base out.

  28. 28.

    scav

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us?: Their freedom enhancing shallow state is going to be sooooooo busy between testing the pregnancy status of all women crossing state lines, monitoring same in all doctor appointments and popping into all bedrooms checking on the sperm quality before all “legitimate” sexual encounters.

  30. 30.

    KatKapCC

    Lindel, who shaved off his mustache and put on sunglasses and a hat so nobody would recognize him

    From the Clark Kent School of Disguise.

  31. 31.

    BR

    Speaking of weird, I think the fact that the GOP NC Gov candidate is so weird will really play in our favor, and I think NC may be the key to winning this election. With a Dem governor, they haven’t been able to put into place as many crazy election rules (to my knowledge), whereas it’s clear that GA is set up for a contentious fight.

  37. 37.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Chris: Everything since 2016 has been an education on the fact that nearly half of our fellow Americans are really shit human beings. It has not been edifying.

  42. 42.

    Chris

    @Steve LaBonne:

    Being a shit human I expect.  It’s the sheer patheticness and toddler-like nature that grates, especially that of the people they crown as their god-kings.  I don’t expect Emperor Palpatine, but you’d think they could at least hoist themselves to the level of gravitas and coolness of, I don’t know, Harry and Marv from Home Alone.

  44. 44.

    Lyrebird

    @Leto: @SatanicPanic:

    Yeah I’m not sure about making celebrities out of minors generally, though young Knowa seems to have this in stride…  but what it shows about Lindell?  EWWW the way he was leaning over to physically intimidate a child.  A “tween” ok whatevs, but unless he (ML) did the same to every TikTokker in the place, it screams “bully” to me.

  46. 46.

    mrmoshpotato

    “So your source is ‘trust me bro?’” Knowa shot back. “Alright, you’re full of crap.”

    ROFLMAO!

    Good on ya, Knowa!

    I hope he added “Fuck your shitty pillows, pillow ass!”

  48. 48.

    Bex

    Ann Coulter has emerged from her coffin and tweeted a picture of Gus Walz saying “That’s my Dad” and crying last night, captioned “Weird.”  Best reaction I’ve seen calls her a “dollar tree Eva Braun.”  No link but you can find it anywhere this afternoon.

  50. 50.

    piratedan

    @Almost Retired: there’s a return to the scene of the crime thing here….

    Cochise County, is the origin source of busloads of illegals coming in to vote as Democrats boondoggle.  It’s also home to th one Arizona County that refused to certify it’s votes, thus delaying and complicating the AZ recounts that were requested.  Eventually they lost in the state courts and had a couple of their county commissioners booted.  It’s a weird intersection of the Old West, big ranches, old mining/tourism places that has everything from Ft. Huachuca, a military intelligence base, to Bisbee, which is a mining town turned artist/crafts colony.  Also has the border city of Douglas/Agua Prieta.  Because of nature of topography, it’s got a lot of supposed pluses for people to sneak across and head for places like Tucson and Phoenix and get routed elsewhere.  There’s also some agriculture there (wine, pecan, vegetables) that need cheap labor to bring in their crops.

    Immigration has a love/ate relationship here, yes they want the cheap labor but they don’t want to see fences cut and livestock culled by those coming across illegally, but because of Fox News, they don’t want them to come across legally either.

    It’s a place where there are legitimate concerns about the border, but as usual the GOP just wants to use them as props.

  52. 52.

    West of the Rockies

    @Trollhattan:

    I bet all these guys are sniffing each other’s chairs

    Republicans are such creepster, weirdo freaks.  All they have are lies, grievances, resentments, fear, and bigotry (polished to a fare-thee-well with masculine toxicity).

  54. 54.

    Scout211

    And as I posted downstairs, Ann Coulter posted a pic of Gus Walz tearing up from last night and called it “weird.”  She got hammered on social media and deleted it. Sheesh. They’re trying so hard to own the libs only to get made fun of for their own very weird weirdness.  Sad.

    That’s why I’d prefer the Chicks sing “Not Ready to Make Nice” tonight, but I’m fine with the National Anthem.

  58. 58.

    rikyrah

     

    Brianna Wu (@BriannaWu) posted at 6:52 AM on Thu, Aug 22, 2024:

    The purpose of the DNC convention is to promote the Walz/Harris campaign, coalesce our energy, and hopefully reach uncommitted voters.

    The Free Palestine people tried to hijack that moment and disrupt this event, many openly stating they wanted a repeat of the 1968 violent riots.

    No one showed up. They failed.

    So they are moving to Plan B. Bitching that a speaker didn’t mirror their talking points on stage and pretending their “uncommitted” delegates have power – which they don’t.

    I’ve been saying this since October 7, but the horrific Palestine situation deserves more serious political movement than this bunch of Jew-hating narcissists. They want attention, and they want to set everything in sight on fire. The number of open antisemites in their movement is stunning.

    You can’t quell these people by giving them more attention – it just fuels them and makes the situation worse.

    Not giving them a platform to hijack our convention is so obviously the correct play. Welcome to politics. We do what we have to do to win.

    (https://x.com/BriannaWu/status/1826588344056246364?s=02)

  59. 59.

    Captain C

    @Scout211: This is the response (or a response anyway) that had “Dollar Tree Eva Braun”  (No link to the hellsite):

    Wind your neck in, you Dollar Tree Eva Braun. He’s 17. Everyone is weird at 17. You still are

    While googling this, I also found a xeet from around 2018, a reply to one in which DTEB (Dollar Tree Eva Braun) said bombs were a liberal tactic:

    Tell that to Oklahoma City you Dollar Tree Eva Braun

    I hope this sticks with her forever

    ETA:  I’ve never been able to figure out why/how she’s a Dead fan, as her hateful, selfish beliefs are pretty much the antithesis of everything about the band and the scene.

  60. 60.

    satby

    @Lyrebird: Knowa made himself a celebrity, that’s what “influencers” do. He has almost 51k followers on Twitter, not sure how many on TikTok or Instagram. And was offered his own show on Roland Martin’s network after he confronted Lindell (Knowa initiated the encounter). Don’t worry about him, he’s fine.

  61. 61.

    Scout211

    Chicago News station NBC 5   continues the rumors and speculation.

    Several big-name performers are already scheduled to take the stage on the final night of the 2024 Democratic National Convention Thursday, but with no official lineup announced yet rumors over celebrity appearances are on the rise.

    Could Beyoncé perform? What about Taylor Swift?
    . . .

    Fans have been speculating for days that one of the two powerhouse female icons could hit the stage for a grand finale of sorts on the final day of the convention, but organizers have given little confirmation on what’s to come.

    Sources have confirmed at least two major appearances so far, including performances by Pink and The Chicks, formerly known as the Dixie Chicks.
    . . .

    It’s worth noting that The Chicks have been tied to both Beyoncé and Taylor Swift, recording songs with the famed singers. Beyoncé and The Chicks have been joined by their Texas roots and appeared together on a special version of her song “Daddy Lessons,” while Swift has not been shy about the trio’s influence on her early life.

    “Early in my life, these three women showed me that female artists can play their own instruments while also putting on a flamboyant spectacle of a live show,” Swift told Billboard in 2020. “They taught me that creativity, eccentricity, unapologetic boldness and kitsch can all go together authentically. Most importantly, they showed an entire generation of girls that female rage can be a bonding experience between us all the very second we first heard Natalie Maines bellow ‘that Earl had to DIE.’”

    Fan speculation surrounding Beyoncé and Swift has only grown as the convention goes on, especially as Vice President Kamala Harris walked out onstage at Chicago’s United Center to Beyoncé’s “Freedom,” surprising the convention with an early speech ahead of her scheduled remarks Thursday. (Watch the moment here)

    . . .

    Many have noted that she does not appear to have any performances getting in the way of a potential DNC appearance.

    Some in the audience Monday were also spotted wearing “cowboy Kamala” sashes, a reference to Beyoncé’s recent album “Cowboy Carter.”

    Rumors and speculation . . . plus a big surprise!  Who knows.  But I love all the strong, talented female music stars performing tonight, or just being mentioned as a rumor.

  62. 62.

    KatKapCC

    @rikyrah: See, this is a key point. It is certainly NOT the case that everyone who is pro-Palestine is antisemitic. Absolutely not. But there are indeed a not insignificant number who are, and the fact that they are not denounced, that they are still supported and put out in front and still welcome in the fold speaks volumes.

    It’s like that old saying (which I’ve seen numerous versions of) that if you have 10 people around a dinner table and one of them is making overtly racist jokes and none of the others tell them to shut up and leave…then you have 10 racists at that table. When I hear hateful crap against Palestinians from other Jews, I tell them to shove it, and that the civilians in Palestine are just as worthy of life and liberty as anyone else. Similarly, these crowds should also be repudiating the open antisemitism among their circles. If they don’t do that, it means they condone it.

  63. 63.

    piratedan

    @Geminid: he’s made ads with the Sheriff of Santa Cruz County (that’s where Nogales is) who praises him for a common sense/capitalistic approach.  Looking at better enforcement at the border for BOTH kinds of transits, one for people and one for commerce.  He has piggybacked on top of the old Gabby Giffords position to focus on the guns and the money, to dissuade the drugs and people trafficking (i.e. the cash and guns going TO Mexico).  Supports better tech and better training and wants an expansion in the legal support for those so that people do not wait in detention for months because of a lack of resources to deal with their cases.

    It’s a nod to those that are impacted by the bureaucracy but also trying to make it much less convoluted.

    He also states that there is no ‘border crisis’ but there are issues that need to be solved because of the lack of focus and crappy GOP posturing.

  64. 64.

    Princess

    @Almost Retired: I seem to remember Trump lovingly and graphically describing violence done to white women in previous campaigns. If he sat near you in a movie theatre, you’d change your seat.

  65. 65.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Scout211:
     

    Rumors and speculation

    Throw in half truths and fraudulent misrepresentations and you have described my legal filings!

  68. 68.

    oldster

    @Captain C:

    “Dollar Tree Eva Braun” really is hilarious for Ann “Way Past her Sell-by Date” Coulter.

    And the fact that she would go after Walz’ kid for having the purest, most innocent and good-hearted reaction to seeing his dad up on stage, is just more evidence of her soullessness.

    They all should be ashamed, but Republicans lost all shame many years ago.

  69. 69.

    danielx

    @scav:

    Don’t forget their freedoms about checking high school girls’ lady parts, plus making sure nobody reads anything of which they don’t approve. Oh yeah, plus making sure the only people who can vote are people who can prove they had a forebear who arrived on the Mayflower.

    Damn, these are some weird motherfuckers with weird obsessions.

  71. 71.

    Geminid

    @piratedan: Thanks. I have been impressed by Rep. Gallego, and I look forward to him joining the Senate this coming  January along with Angela Alsobrooks, Elissa Slotkin, Lisa Blunt Rochester and Andy Kim. A talented bunch.

  79. 79.

    piratedan

    @Belafon: I think he also supports a pathway to citizenship (as do most Dems) but isn’t saying that out loud because this is Arizona and that would start the cries of AMNESTY!!!!! which would drown out any further conversation.

    I’m pretty liberal about this, so I understand that it will take a while for people to come around to my position.  I still believe we need to recognize the impact that these people have in our economy and the full spectrum of jobs that they fill.  If they’re doing that kind of hard work for the opportunity to become citizens, why would we begrudge them that?

  82. 82.

    catclub

    @Baud:

    coupons for gender reassignment surgery

    Buy one, get one free!

    Most fitting for Oprah. “you get a sex reassignment, and you get a sex reassignment, you all get a sex reassignment surgery!”

  84. 84.

    cain

    @rikyrah: The fact that they don’t seem to care about anything about their movement and their own righteousness. It has nothing to do with actual Palestinian suffering and liberty.

    Yes, we need to stop funding that genocide without our weapons. Israel has enough weapons to take on anyone anyways. They don’t need our help.

  85. 85.

    Leto

    @KatKapCC:

    It’s like that old saying (which I’ve seen numerous versions of) that if you have 10 people around a dinner table and one of them is making overtly racist jokes and none of the others tell them to shut up and leave…then you have 10 racists at that table.

    Then that def makes the Israeli’s Nazi’s. Because the original quote was about Nazi’s. You have most of the senior members of the Israeli government calling for the total extermination of Palestinians. They’ve been interviewed by Israeli, and international journalists, and they’re on tape saying that. They’re on record. And on top of that, the policies and actions they’ve taken over the past few decades support that. Even before this even more right wing Israeli government. It’d also be nice if Israel could at least pretend that they’ll follow the Laws of Armed Conflict, and/or the Geneva Accords of ‘47. The thing that they’re a signatory to, and governs how they should proceed in armed conflict.

    Anyways, here’s some more of the Pro-Hamas supporters who actually were allowed to speak at the DNC.

    “It haunts us in our dreams.” Gaza doctors speak at the DNC and beg the world to listen. Cori Bush and Ilhan Omar join their press conference.

    Here’s a long read:

    The Guardian: As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel
    This summer, one of my lectures was protested by far-right students. Their rhetoric brought to mind some of the darkest moments of 20th-century history – and overlapped with mainstream Israeli views to a shocking degree
    By Omer Bartov
    Omer Bartov, a former IDF soldier who’s now the world’s leading scholar on genocide and the Holocaust.

    The Guardian: Israel perpetrating war crimes in plain sight in Gaza, says ex-UK diplomat
    Mark Smith, who quit Dublin embassy role, says he raised his concerns over weapons sales with foreign secretary

  86. 86.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @Captain C: I’ve never been able to figure out why/how [Coulter is] a Dead fan, as her hateful, selfish beliefs are pretty much the antithesis of everything about the band and the scene.

    I will say Ann Coulter is the one lifelong winger talking head whom I have heard constant rumors about her not being at all sincere in her beliefs.

    It’s a living. /FlinstonesAppliance

  88. 88.

    different-church-lady

    Pick on someone your own siz– oh, wait, they’re picking on people bigger than they are.

  90. 90.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @rikyrah: There are also Palestinian voices like Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, who demand a Cease Fire but also condemn Hamas and Anti-Semitism and call for a Two-State Solution and mutual humanity for both Israelis and Palestinians.  They would be great  to see speak at the DNC.  But they would never be supported by the protestors.

  91. 91.

    Leto

    @cain:

    we need to stop funding that genocide without our weapons

    That’s something that Palestinians, and outside aid agencies, continue to say over and over and over and over…

    How do you get the people to support a US led peace process, when it’s our bombs that are being dropped on them? We spent two decades talking about how our actions in the Middle East, specifically Iraq and Afghanistan, were further fueling terrorism by continuing to radicalize the population and produce new generations of terrorists, but somehow we can’t make that connection here. It’s a collective stupid pill action.

  92. 92.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @rikyrah:

    I mean, Sean Fain, president of the UAW, spoke up in favor of allowing an elected Dem Palestinian-American with a vetted speech to speak at the convention. So have other MI Dems. According to reporting from Mother Jones mentioned by commenter Litano, the Harris team wouldn’t even look at the speech. Uncommitted delegates made it known weeks ago their wishes for someone to speak at the DNC

    I fear Harris and her team are making the same mistakes Biden was making

  93. 93.

    tam1MI

    @rikyrah: the horrific Palestine situation deserves more serious political movement than this bunch of Jew-hating narcissists.

    Said it better than I could.

  94. 94.

    wjca

    @Bex: COACH Walz.  Couch Vance.

    It comes down to this.  Walz gets graded A.  Vance gets graded U — because a mere F isn’t low enough.

  96. 96.

    JoyceH

    @The Audacity of Krope: does she have a new book out? I’ve noticed that every year or two, Coulter pops up in the news  for some new repulsive statement and I wonder, new book? And it almost always turns out to be the case.

  97. 97.

    Leto

    @tam1MI:

    @rikyrah: the horrific Palestine situation deserves more serious political movement than this bunch of Jew-hating narcissists

    Except they had that. Two members of Congress stood up for them, were extremely vocal about this, and then got primaried by AIPAC. If the calculus now is, speak out against Israel, lose your seat… who the hell is going to do that?

    And yeah yeah, Bush voted against the Infrastructure bill. Pelosi would routinely allow some members to vote against something when they knew it would pass. Biden would say, “If you need to run against me, do it; just win”. Just, whatever.

  98. 98.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @JoyceH: If Coulter does have a new book out, I won’t take the time or effort to find out even though I’m on a train with nothing better to do.

  99. 99.

    SatanicPanic

    I’m very excited to see Kamala Harris speak tonight, regardless of what famous people show up.

    Although I am enjoying the celebrity cameos. Especially Kenan Thompson, who I think is the GOAT SNL performer.

  100. 100.

    CaseyL

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    Here’s what I’m gleaning from discussions online:  There was a speaker put forward by an Uncommitted delegate, but either no one would look at her speech (ie, the Harris campaign didn’t), or they weren’t given a copy of the speech to look at (and therefore didn’t know what was in it); or, alternatively, the proposed speech didn’t have the Free Palestine group’s approved talking points, so *they* opposed her speaking.

    I honestly don’t know which version is correct.

  101. 101.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @SatanicPanic: Especially Kenan Thompson, who I think is the GOAT SNL performer.

    Would have made a great Deval Patrick for their political parodies if Patrick’s attempts at national office weren’t so lackluster.

  102. 102.

    Jackie

    Heart breaking news for Arkansas women and girls😢

    “The Arkansas Supreme Court blocked an abortion-rights initiative from appearing on the state’s ballot this fall, upholding a July decision by the secretary of state to reject the measure for not following rules related to paid signature gatherers,” NBC News reports.

    “The decision means Arkansas will not be among the handful of states where voters will have the chance to weigh in on abortion-related measures on the November ballot, as the court’s majority opinion denies “further relief” to the group behind the proposed constitutional amendment.”

  103. 103.

    tam1MI

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): the Harris team wouldn’t look at the speech.

    The Harris team has been a bit busy putting together a Presidential campaign from scratch. Perhaps you were unaware of the events of the past few weeks?

    Also, a poster up thread has just let slip that pro- Palestinian advocates HAVE ALREADY SPOKEN AT THE CONVENTION. So this whole fuss about pro- Palestinian voices being silenced is in, as usual, bad faith.

  105. 105.

    Old School

    @CaseyL:

    According to the Guardian, they were offered a panel:

    They initially asked for Dr Tanya Haj-Hassan, a doctor who worked in Gaza, to speak from the main stage and have now pushed for a Palestinian American to give a speech there. The DNC offered them a panel on the sidelines of the convention, but not a spot on the main stage.

  107. 107.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @Jackie: Well, if Arkansas won’t let people vote directly on abortion, they could always install a pro-choice legislature.

    One can dream…

  109. 109.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @tam1MI:

    Seriously? They could make the time, particularly for something that could make a difference between winning and losing MI

    ETA: Was it during primetime?

  111. 111.

    delphinium

    @rikyrah: Laughed so hard at Knowa’s response “So your source is ‘trust me bro?’”

    Lindel and his fellow travelers are well beyond weird at this point and are firmly into abhorrent territory.

  112. 112.

    Leto

    @tam1MI:

    Also, a poster up thread has just let slip that pro- Palestinian advocates HAVE ALREADY SPOKEN AT THE CONVENTION. So this whole fuss about pro- Palestinian voices being silenced is in, as usual, bad faith.

    Hey, that was me. I can tell that you didn’t look at the link so I’ll fill you in: they spoke outside. No pro-Palestinian person has spoken from the floor. But we did get a hostage family to speak from the podium. So… it’s not bad faith. Big fucking difference between getting a podium spot with international coverage versus standing out in a patch of grass and dirt, with a link to Imgur.

  113. 113.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @Scout211: Election season is no time to talk about policy preferences!!!

    @Leto: So… it’s not bad faith.

    Well, not from the pro-Palestine side. Not here on Balloon Juice.

  115. 115.

    Geminid

    @UncleEbeneezer: I wonder if you are familiar with former Knesset member Einat Wilf. She writes and speaks on the larger issue of Israel’s place in the Middle East, and is a very brainy and articulate woman.

    Wilf does not post much on current issues in Israeli politics with the exception of draft exemptions for the Ultra-Orthodox, which she firmly opposes. I think Wilf is reticent because she intends to enter the next Knesset and wants to steer clear of controversies until the campaign. Foreign policy is her wheelhouse anyway.

  116. 116.

    Litano

    @CaseyL: From Mother Jones’s reporting on this:

    Romman has been a vocal and prominent activist for Uncommitted. Waleed Shahid, a strategist for the movement, said that she was among a list of potential speakers given to national Democrats. Initially, the Uncommitted movement pushed for Dr. Tanya Haj-Hassan, a pediatric intensive care doctor who volunteered in Gaza, to speak. (She is not Palestinian.) Shahid said this request was denied earlier in the week. After, the movement sent a list of more names for potential speakers, including Rep. Romman. (Shahid said he heard that Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s office was pushing for a speech from Romman.)

    In an interview, Romman called herself a safe, last resort. “If an elected official in a swing state who is Palestinian cannot make it on that stage nobody else can,” she told Mother Jones.

    Below, you can find the speech Romman wants to give. Uncommitted says it was open to multiple speakers. Rep. Romman and Uncommitted organizers both confirmed that this was the speech she was planning to give if allowed for a potential 2-minute speaking slot. Uncommitted said they were open to the speech being edited and vetted. They said the DNC did not ask to see the speech.

    “We prepped the speech,” Romman told Mother Jones. “We don’t know why the campaign said no. We literally have no feedback. We are in the dark.”

    The DNC did not respond to requests for comment in time for publication about why Romman—or another speaker—would not have been acceptable.

    “I want to be clear,” Romman said. “We’ve been in negotiations for days. This did not just come up…We’ve been talking about this for at least a week. In addition, the campaign told us that not getting a ‘no’ [initially upon first hearing the request] was a really good sign. For them to give us a ‘no’ the same day that Geoff Duncan [a Republican from Georgia] was on the stage—especially when it was my name—was just absolutely a slap in the face.”

    I want to make a more basic point that the actual ask here– including a Palestinian speaker is an incredibly low bar that the campaign should have done without being asked or pressured at all just as a matter of good politics.

  117. 117.

    tam1MI

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Seriously? They could make the time, particularly for something that could make a difference between winning and losing MI

    Harris met in person with leaders of the Uncommitted movement in Michigan. She is not ignoring them. But nothing she does for them is ever enough.

  118. 118.

    Leto

    @Scout211:

    And then we can question their middle east team.

    Here’s the thing, it’ll be the same policy as it’s been since ‘48. Harris won’t break with that. What we don’t know is that if Harris wins in Nov, how will that impact Bibi’s decision making process moving forward? Idk. He’s like Trumpov, trying to stay out of jail. As long as he’s waging war, he’s staying out of jail.

  119. 119.

    p.a

    Hate to engage in lookism/sexism but back when I still tweeted I once warned Laura Ingraham that she was just a few wrinkles away from being “Coultered”; memory-holed by the Fox “News” freshest-is-bestest law of on air female talent.

  122. 122.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @Omnes Omnibus: The cost/benefit of allowing someone to speak for probably 5 minutes tells me this is an easy way to placate at least some people who have legitimate concerns about our foreign policy and are having their voice silenced from the mainstream political conversation.

    This isn’t exactly a big ask.

  123. 123.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @tam1MI:

    I understand that they did, but you have to keep them happy. It’s not a big ask imo to let a vetted, elected Dem Palestinian-American speak for a bit on the stage

  125. 125.

    Leto

    @Litano: and they could’ve done it at the 6pm slot when basically nobody is watching. If you feel like you need to sideline them, but still give them a crumb, there you go.

  128. 128.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    We don’t know, but it’s probably going to be close and we need every vote in an important state like Michigan. Sean Fain thought it was important enough to go to bat for them for a speaker at the Convention

  131. 131.

    JoyceH

    LOL. Who was the sports figure who once plaintively asked “Does anyone here know how to play this game?”  JD Vance goes into a donut shop to buy donuts, photo op to be all normal and relatable. And he winds up in a shop where the counter clerk doesn’t recognize him and doesn’t want to be filmed. How do his staff still have jobs?

  135. 135.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @JoyceH: [Vance] winds up in a shop where the counter clerk doesn’t recognize him and doesn’t want to be filmed. How do his staff still have jobs?

    Planning is for suckers and Democrats. Why have a forward team plan a public event where god-knows-who is there and the campaign wants good film.

    Lucky for that counter attendant, though, I wish I couldn’t identify Vance.

  137. 137.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @The Audacity of Krope: I agree that, on the surface, you are correct.  The fact that they aren’t agreeing to it leads me to believe that there is something else involved.  And, no, I don’t have any idea what it might be.

  138. 138.

    Geminid

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think you are trying to divert attention from the way you crushed people’s hopes yesterday with your imperfect link to the AKA story. That was cruel!

  140. 140.

    Litano

    @tam1MI: Oh come on, that’s incredibly weak shit and you know it. “I feel your pain” wasn’t a good line in 1992 and it’s not a good line today. There are a number of things you could say that are low-salience enough to the general public to prevent a shitstorm but meaningful enough to those who care about the suffering in Gaza to show you’re willing to break from the current administration’s extreme, hardline policy. Harris hasn’t said anything that I haven’t heard hundreds of times before by the people who have resolutely, time and time again, refused to use any of their leverage to stop the carnage in Gaza.

  142. 142.

    Betty Cracker

    Every time a creepy right-wing man asks, “what is a woman?” the person asked should reply, “the people who instinctively put their hand over their drink when you walk into a bar.”

  145. 145.

    JoyceH

    @The Audacity of Krope: It’s cute as a primary-era “snows of New Hampshire” story (West Wing fans will flash back to Matt Santos greeting citizens at the town dump), but after the convention it’s just pathetic.

  147. 147.

    Ksmiami

    @Litano: so you’re saying we should elevate an uncommitted voter group that’s been actively hostile to the Democratic Party to deliver a prime time speech during our convention… yeah no, sorry.

  149. 149.

    Weftage

    @satby: That notwithstanding, my heart hurts that a 12-year-old has to be “fine” with being shouted at, at point-blank range, by a vicious adult twice his size.

  152. 152.

    tam1MI

    @Litano: come on, that’s incredibly weak shit and you know it. “I feel your pain” wasn’t a good line in 1992 and it’s not a good line today. There are a number of things you could say that are low-salience enough to the general public to prevent a shitstorm but meaningful enough to those who care about the suffering in Gaza to show you’re willing to break from the current administration’s extreme, hardline policy. Harris hasn’t said anything that I haven’t heard hundreds of times before by the people who have resolutely, time and time again, refused to use any of their leverage to stop the carnage in Gaza.

    In other words, nothing she does will ever be enough. The goalposts will always be moving.

    If we were going to get this shit all over again, why the hell did we bother to force out Joe Biden?

  154. 154.

    tam1MI

    @Ksmiami: so you’re saying we should elevate an uncommitted voter group that’s been actively hostile to the Democratic Party to deliver a prime time speech during our convention… yeah no, sorryso you’re saying we should elevate an uncommitted voter group that’s been actively hostile to the Democratic Party to deliver a prime time speech during our convention… yeah no, sorry..

    It’s becoming increasingly clear that they are basically the same old Horseshoe Left – their vote is ungettable no matter what so why even bother.

  155. 155.

    Leto

    @Ksmiami: the amount of people who’ve been actively hostile to our party for the past almost 100 years, including people who actively worked to implement laws that we find morally repugnant, who received actual prime time speaking slots at this convention…

  156. 156.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Litano:

    the current administration’s extreme, hardline policy

    Oh for fucks sake

     

    @tam1MI:

    In other words, nothing she does will ever be enough. The goalposts will always be moving.

    Exactly.

  159. 159.

    Princess

    @tam1MI: Because they never in a million years thought he’d step aside. They thought they could flog that horse all the way to the election.

  160. 160.

    tam1MI

    @

    the amount of people who’ve been actively hostile to our party for the past almost 100 years, including people who actively worked to implement laws that we find morally repugnant, who received actual prime time speaking slots at this convention…

    They are not currently actively trying to throw the election to Donald Trump.

  161. 161.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Leto: ​ 

    And every single one of them repudiated the GOP and its actions and announced their support of Harris.

  163. 163.

    Ksmiami

    @tam1MI: I care about getting Harris elected – the I/p issue has been a problem my entire lifetime and I’m not wasting time or breath on the jag offs that would ruin our democracy for this issue that’s been intractable for 70 years.

  167. 167.

    Litano

    @Ksmiami: It’s weird that the ask was “Palestinian speaker” and you heard “uncommitted voter group that’s been actively hostile to the Democratic Party.” Unless you’re saying that all Palestinians intrinsically belong to that second category, these are two very different asks! For one thing, the Uncommitted delegates have been about as loyal a dissenting voice within the party as I could have asked for. They’ve consistently said that their number one priority is stopping Trump. They’re concerned about the Dem’s extreme position here in large part because they believe it hurts our electoral viability in November, and the proposed speech that the Dems rejected sight unseen concluded with a full-throated defense of Harris. For another thing, Abdelnasser Rashid and Ruwa Romman are not members of the uncommitted delegation in any capacity! They’re elected Dems in good standing who happen to also be Palestinian. If you think their statements on this topic are too extreme or whatever, fine– say that and then find another Palestinian speaker. Rejecting the prospect altogether and dismissing the extreme grief that people are feeling about this terrible carnage doesn’t really make sense unless your explicit goal is signaling to Bibi and AIPAC that you’re willing to tell the Palestinians to pound sand just like the rest of the foreign policy blob.

  169. 169.

    Ksmiami

    @Leto: I don’t even understand your point. The speakers have all been in support of Harris. A pro Palestinian uncommitted speaker throws a rusted wrench into the conversation- wtf would a sentient person want that?

  170. 170.

    Leto

    @Baud: that’s because you actually saw their speeches. We don’t know what they were going to talk about. Would it have been bashing the current administration? Idk. Saying please stop the sale/non-sale of arms being sent to Israel used to kill Palestinians? Idk. Say, please tell the Israeli’s to please let medical/humanitarian/food aid in? Idk. None of us do.

    But we sure want to give permission for white people to finally, after 56 fucking years, to vote Dem. Ok.

  172. 172.

    frog

    holding JD Vance sperm sample cups

    It’s a scam.  I drank a whole bottle and nothing happened.

  173. 173.

    Baud

    @Leto:

    I’d imagine the DNC knew what they were going to talk about. Maybe had a hand on the mute button. But the topics aren’t comparable.

  175. 175.

    Leto

    @Ksmiami: They’re in support of Harris only while Trump is on the ticket. That’s it. Two of them have stated that. Why did we need the hostage family up there? Is that not throwing a wrench into the convo? Apparently not. “Please release the hostages.”

    ”Please stop killing the civilians.” I mean… we supposedly stand for basic rule of law. Idk, I keep coming back to that as a main sticking point here, and most of BJ just fucking skips right over that. Again, the collective amnesia from 2001 to 2021 is amazing.

  176. 176.

    Ksmiami

    @Litano: keep shifting the goal posts for the Democratic Party Bud-

    ps: until and unless Israel fires Netanyahu, there really isn’t much we can do. Hamas is bad for Palestinian security.

  177. 177.

    Jackie

    Sorry to interrupt this riveting debate, but I just turned on C Span, and there’s A LOT of white clothing tonight! I wonder if Kamala will be wearing white.

  180. 180.

    Leto

    @Baud: Per the reporting, the DNC did. And the group was more than willing to work with them on making sure it wasn’t disruptive, while still getting their point out. And I’ll simply disagree on the last sentence.

  183. 183.

    BR

    @Leto:
    And not a single one of those Republicans got to go on stage to *advocate* for their policy positions. You keep avoiding that simple fact. They were there to say “I support Harris, fellow Republicans should too.”
    I’m not opposed to someone from the uncommitted delegates giving a policy-neutral speech that speaks to the pain of Gazans, but at the same time I can see why when there’s such a complex orchestration that they might not want to risk slotting in someone right now.

  185. 185.

    BR

    This is super important re: foreign policy and I don’t see anyone saying it: I don’t think Palestinian-Americans and the left generally understand what a gift they are getting in Harris/Walz, and are stuck in an old mental frame. I don’t mean this in talking down, but more that folks don’t know too much about these two people as people. Harris would have almost certainly grown up with a really really strong anti-colonial family education, given what I know of her mom, dad, and her Indian and Jamaican relatives (hint: both countries were under the boot of the British for a long time). Walz has done amazing projects with his high school students in the 1990s studying genocide. I bet both of them have a totally different gut level way of looking at the Middle East than Biden and his old natsec hands.​

  186. 186.

    KatKapCC

    @Leto: Look, we can all disagree about things here, but for the love of G-d, stop calling Jews Nazis. I do not know how to explain how utterly disgusting that is, especially when many of us are being told to go back to Poland, to get in the ovens, to get gassed, etc. I’m asking you to please not say that. Have whatever opinions you have about the war, but not that.

  190. 190.

    Steve LaBonne

    @SatanicPanic: And she has released the text of the very brief and utterly harmless speech she wanted to give. I am very skeptical of claims about how many votes are really at stake, but I think not giving her two minutes is a mistake.

  196. 196.

    Leto

    @KatKapCC: how about the Israeli’s stop acting like the Nazis? Again, I don’t know why the fuck I post stuff because people don’t read it, but go back up to my comment that you linked from and read what the fucking leading scholar on the Holocaust/genocide, who is himself a former Israeli soldier, and how the Israeli military has adopted the same mindset on the Palestinians as the Nazi’s did with the Jews. And that’s not even counting the government.

    And I’ll agree, it is fucking disgusting. Israeli’s should know better. How many other scholars need to come out and talk about how the Israeli state is acting just like the people who tried to exterminate them? Because a lot of them have. And no, they’re not all fucking pro-Hamas. Jesus Christ.

  200. 200.

    SatanicPanic

    @Steve LaBonne: Yeah seems like not a big deal to throw them a bone, but I also agree with Omnes that maybe there’s something we don’t know. Who knows.

  201. 201.

    JustRuss

    @The Audacity of Krope:  I will say Ann Coulter is the one lifelong winger talking head whom I have heard constant rumors about her not being at all sincere in her beliefs.

    As I recall, she was once pretty close to the author of Blinded by the Right, and not at all bothered by his homosexuality. Weirdly, the ex-wife of a friend of mine was friends with her in grade school, so I guess that’s one degree of separation for me.

  202. 202.

    HinTN

    @Jackie: I hate this but it’s gross misfeasance on the part of those proposing the initiative and submitting the required documents not to know and follow the rules. Especially for something of this import.

  203. 203.

    wjca

    @Danielx: Casey Stengel on the 1962 Mets. Was an excellent question as they lost 120 games.

    A record this year’s White Sox are trying hard to beat.  Without having the excuse of being an expansion team.

  204. 204.

    Jay

    @KatKapCC:

    Leto did not call “Jews” “Nazi’s”.

    He called the Israeli War Cabinet and many of the Political classes and supporters of the current Israeli Government Nazi’s, based on their plans, policies, actions and rhetoric.

  205. 205.

    David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch

    This argument has to stop.  I can’t take it anymore.  Back and forth, back and forth.  In this rare case, both sides are right, Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark should be co-rookies of the year.

  206. 206.

    Gvg

    @CaseyL: Republicans and frankly most voters aren’t rewarding serious discussions about sensitive policies. I would say this isn’t the time to bring it up. It may be the time to DO things like diplomacy and even a little backstabbing Bibi if we can, but not a speech at the convention.
    Long term, educating the public to detach from Israel needs to happen. They need to be just an ally, not a fetish. And we need to quit lumping American Jews in with them. American Jews have diverted from Israeliis a bunch. That needs to be made clearer to people here and even in Israel.

  207. 207.

    Geminid

    @KatKapCC: What bugs me about the “Nazi” epithet is the way people glide right past every other terrible war since 1945– and there have been dozens– to pick the Nazi’s extermination of the Jews as the analogue for what Israel has done in Gaza. There is an unspoken and for many, unconscious message that “those Jews must not have learned their lesson.”

  211. 211.

    HinTN

    @BR:

     I bet both of them have a totally different gut level way of looking at the Middle East than Biden and his old natsec hands.​

    I hope they dump every one of them! Far too much “knickers in a twist” about possibly pissing off Putin and not enough active support to the David fighting for Europe’s life against Goliath. Just for starters, unleash the Storm Shadows FFS.

  214. 214.

    Jay

    @SatanicPanic:

    It may not be cool, but not all Israeli’s are Jews, but the current Israeli Government is acting exactly like Nazi’s, speaking like Nazi’s and using the same strategy and tactics as the Nazi’s used against Warsaw.

  218. 218.

    Geminid

    @Jay: There was a similar if not greater power disparity when the US firebombed Japanese cities in 1945, yet I never see pictures of Osaka or Tokyo in ruins, just Rotterdam. Those Japanese civilians had no say in that war and the US incinerated them anyway. Same with the German civilians in Hamburg the British killed.

    And the Nazis are not infamous for bombing civilians like Israel has done and the US has done plenty; the Nazi’s are infamous for slaughtering millions in death camps and places like Baba Yar. I see no equivalence here.

  219. 219.

    karen gail

    One thing about the whole Israel, Palestine mess; I remember my Grandfather talking about it when he was remembering when it was first announced that Israel would be “created” by removing the existing Palestinian people. He believed it would end badly, for the Palestinian people because “look what happened when white Europeans forced Native people off their lands.”  Grandpa was a millworker for 50 years and since he started working at 14 his mother encouraged him to read and learn. His uncle “corrupted” him by encouraging him to read history. So he had read the history of many empires and nations that destroyed themselves with war.

  220. 220.

    Leto

    @SatanicPanic: There’s a long list of scholarship showing how current day Israel uses the same dehumanizing language/tactics that the Nazi’s did. That’s not to mention the same long list of scholarship drawing the parallels to apartheid South Africa.

    The language of genocide: How Israel dehumanises Palestinians

    When the existence of an entire people is denied, when their humanity is denied again and again and again, when they are simultaneously cast as non-existent and terrorist — we see what is happening in Gaza

    At this point, it’s willful disregard.

  221. 221.

    MisterForkbeard

    @BR: I think the simple fact is that by virtue of the fact that they won’t “commit” to Harris (it’s in the name!) they’re being kept off the speakers list. And that’s reasonable, for a political convention literally about the selection of a particular person. You don’t put on speakers that won’t vote for that person and won’t endorse her. Full stop.

    If they’re willing to endorse Harris, and have a vetted speech that doesn’t throw a huge wrench into the convention and the campaign can trust them to stick to it, then you’ve got something. But all three of those conditions are each questionable.

  222. 222.

    karen gail

    @Leto: It’s the same kind of language that has been used for thousands of years; dehumanizing the enemy.
    A friend was in Air Force during Vietnam; he never saw the faces of the people he killed. After the war he rarely spoke about what he had done, though one night when drunk he said that he never saw them as “real people” until the picture of the little girl who had been napalmed. He said he could have done that to her or others and never have known it.

  223. 223.

    Leto

    @Geminid:

    There was an even greater power disparity when the US firebombed Japanese cities in 1945, yet I never see pictures of Osaka or Tokyo in ruins

    The Smithsonian Channel runs continuous WW2 Pacific documentaries which show this, in vivid color. Previously the History Channel showed it, because that’s where I saw it first. There’s so many documentaries on it, the horrors of the firebombings, how the aircrews felt about it, what the civilians on the ground saw, the after effects…

    And we’re not even talking about YouTube which has historians discussing these events, from the political considerations to the ground level grunt.

    And because you brought it up, this is a nice segway: how did our prosecution of the way lead to our current day LOAC rules? And how does this apply to the situation with Israel and Palestine. Regarding our evolution on LOAC, this is basic training level education stuff we did with all of our airmen, but I’m curious if the average civilian knows this.

    I see no equivalence here

    I always find that statement from people so strange. Oh well.

  224. 224.

    Leto

    @karen gail: as someone who has seen them face to face, it’s different. Also if your friend couldn’t see the difference between the enemy and civilians, well…

    Edit: also just fucking lol at “it’s been this way for thousands of years.” IF that’s the case, I don’t know why you aren’t barefoot, pregnant, and in chained in the kitchen. “It’s been that way for thousands of years.” JFC, did you really say that?

  225. 225.

    Jay

    @SatanicPanic:

    SA, not really, there was no “war within”,

    Rwanda is closer,

    The Bosnian Wars,

    but the power difference isn’t there,

    and the history of this war doesn’t really match.

    Underdogs until 1973 becoming the Overlords and over time, mirroring the worst that their enemies had done to them.

    And of course, while there were other wars lead by War Criminals, as judged after the fact, here we have a “war” lead on both sides by on one hand, terrorist leaders, and on the other hand, criminal leaders, both trying to keep the conflict going in synergy, just to avoid facing the consequences.

  226. 226.

    karen gail

    @Leto: It is the dehumanizing the enemy that has been practice for thousands of years; about women, well many societies started out matriarchal but things changed.
    Friend was a pilot; he would take off from safe place fly over where ever he was suppose to target, drop load and fly back. He said he was based out of Philippians so he didn’t see faces of Vietnamize until years after the war

    I am way too old to be chained; ex did his best to make sure I had no life outside of his control, living in country made it easier.

  227. 227.

    Jay

    @Geminid:

    Rape camps, indiscriminate civilian bombings, torture centers, indiscriminate detention with out charges or trial, land grabs, murders, mob violence, starvation as a weapon, destruction of educational, medical and civic facilities, etc.

    BTW, firebombing a city was not a “war crime” during WWII, we were just eventually “better at it” than the Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Romanians, Japanese, etc than they were at end of the war.

  230. 230.

    Leto

    @Jay:

    firebombing a city was not a “war crime” during WWII

    We teach this to our airmen in basic training. And how it was horrible, because it was indiscriminate, the civilians had no part in it, and we talk about how that lead to our current Laws of Armed Combat. There’s a reason why I keep harping on LOAC continuously. I mean it’s in vain, but here we are.

    @karen gail:

    but things changed.

    Nah, you don’t get to make that argument. There’s a difference between pre-Goebbels and everything since then, and it’s known. If you don’t know that, go read the article I linked above.

  231. 231.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Jay: right, right. everyone’s familiar with all of the nazi-jew wars of the 30’s and 40’s where several jewish nations invaded repeatedly and tried to exterminate nazi germany from the start.

    FFS

    @Geminid: yeah dude, the nazis bombed civilians. lots. too many examples to list, but perhaps you’ve heard of a little thing called the blitz of london?

  232. 232.

    Jay

    @strange visitor (from another planet):

    As I pointed out upthread, many other horrific wars have some similarities with the I/P conflict, but they are not well known, and have many significant differences.

    But it’s nice to know that you absolutely approve of everything Israel is doing in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel proper.

  233. 233.

    Steve in the ATL

    @SFBayAreaGal: he bought that haunted farmhouse in upstate New York so he’s probably trapped in another dimension by evil spirits.  Nothing else makes sense, right?

  234. 234.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Jay: holy balls-out straw-man, batman. could you make MORE shit up?

    yeah, i seriously challenge you to find ANYTHING i’ve ever posted that says something as stupid as, “i approve of everything Israel is doing in Gaza, the West Bank and Israel proper.”

    fuck, i’ll challenge you to find anything i’ve posted that says i approve of ANYTHING israel is doing in gaza or the west bank.

    that’s some stupid shit. completely, dumbass.

    i’ll wait.

    the “noble” palestinian protesters can’t tell the difference between jews and israelis. looks like you’ve got problems discerning jews from fucking nazis.

  237. 237.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    @Jay: fucknozzle, i AM a member of the jewish faith. red-sea pedestrian. brooklyn born and bred. you and the “noble” protesters are the ones who have a problem figuring out which are which.

    …and i’m still waiting for you to post my myriad comments approving of everything or even anything IDF is doing in gaza or the west bank, after all, there must be quite a track record if you’re gonna make such a bold statement like that, right, chump?

    or could it be that you’re just completely full of shit?

  238. 238.

    Geminid

    @Jay: It sounds like you are describing what Bashar Assad has been doing the last 13 years. Assad is the biggest butcher of this century, he operates right next door to Israel, and he is ignored or even justified by many of the people condemning Israel. For them, Arab blood is cheap unless it is Israel shedding it.

    And those Israeli war crimes you list are not in the least unique to Israel and Nazi Germany and you know that. Like I said above, people glide right by every other terrible conflict of the last 80 years in order to conflate Israel and Nazi Germany, and that double standard is wrong.

    And “by the way”: what the US did to Japanese civilans in 1945 was far worse than what Israel has done to Gazans and I don’t care if the rules were changed afterwards.

    And US bombs, mines and artillery shells killed scores of thousands or more Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian civilians two decades after these rules were changed. This would be a more apt analogy to what Israel has done in Gaza except that no one from those three countries ever murdered US civilians.

  239. 239.

    Anne Laurie

    @MisterForkbeard: If they’re willing to endorse Harris, and have a vetted speech that doesn’t throw a huge wrench into the convention and the campaign can trust them to stick to it, then you’ve got something. But all three of those conditions are each questionable.

    Not to get into a fight on a dead thread, but I agree 100% with your comment here.

    (Well, except *I* would have used an Oxford comma… )

  242. 242.

    Geminid

    @Jay: I think one thing Assad and Putin have in common is that they will be in power long after Netanyahu is thrown out.

  243. 243.

    Quaker in a Basement

    Aren’t all these guys who keep asking “What is a woman?” the same people who insist Michelle Obama isn’t one?

    It’s all so confusing.

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