In a pitch deck to prospective customers, one of Facebook’s alleged marketing partners explained how it listens to users’ smartphone microphones and advertises to them accordingly.
As 404 Media reports based on documents leaked to its reporters, the TV and radio news giant Cox Media Group (CMG) claims that its so-called “Active Listening” software uses artificial intelligence to “capture real-time intent data by listening to our conversations.”
“Advertisers can pair this voice-data with behavioral data to target in-market consumers,” the deck continues.
In the same slideshow, CMG counted Facebook, Google, and Amazon as clients, though it didn’t specify whether they were involved in the “Active Listening” service. After 404 reached out to Google about its partnership, the tech giant removed the media group from the site for its “Partners Program.”
A Meta spokesperson also pushed back in a statement, saying that CMG was a general partner, not a partner in the program advertised in the deck.
“Meta does not use your phone’s microphone for ads and we’ve been public about this for years,” the statement read. “We are reaching out to CMG to get them to clarify that their program is not based on Meta data.”
I use Facebook with an fake identity, and I don’t have it on my phone. My wife has it on her phone, and she swears that she gets ads pushed to her based on things she’s said. Example: last night we were chatting about a possible cruise outing and a couple of minutes later, she got a cruise ad relevant to what she was talking about and relevant to our location in her Facebook feed.
Now this could just be a coincidence, but I’m sure not going to trust Zuck’s word on this shit. I hope this is one of Lina Khan’s next priorities at the FTC — she’s already doing a great job there.
What Does it Mean to Fight? Some Numbers
The Audacity of Krope
I’ve long suspected this, simply from looking at my phone and accessing anything on the internet after a conversation. Nice to have it confirmed, though.
JiveTurkin
I used to work for a company that used Facebook data. We used personal data from users. It is part of the terms of service you agree to when you sign up with Facebook. I use Facebook, but at least I know that they use my persona data. I never understand why people are surprised that Facebook does this, how do they think Facebook makes money?
There were four people in the world who knew the algorithm used for the Facebook data. And I wasn’t one of them (but I did do some work on projects for one of them on several occasions).
A Ghost to Most
Fight fascism. Kill all your social media.
matt
Mark Zuckerberg is an absolutely horrible human being, and he is still the guy who glibly and gleefully said ‘I can’t believe users are trusting us with all this data!’
Raven
I get stuff for things I THINK about!
Steve LaBonne
My wife and I are pretty sure we have experienced this. We have gotten FB ads for things we’re virtually certain we only talked about but never searched online. Frankly I have always assumed that crap like this is going on all the time.
Steve LaBonne
@Raven: I don’t think so well any more so I should be safe. ;)
Old School
It sure implies it. The slide reads:
MattF
Yes, Facebook lies about the data it collects and uses. It collects the data from and about everyone, whether or not they are a Facebook user, sells it to anyone who will offer enough money for it, and will never never never ever delete it.
MomSense
@Raven:
Ha!
When it comes to social media, we are the product which is why access is free for users. We are bought and sold by companies and other actors who manipulate and market to us. We volunteer so much information about ourselves which is commodified.
dm
We were talking about good media sources. 404 Media is employee owned investigative journalism with a tech focus. Subscriptions pay for their investigations.
Old School
Trump says absolutely nothing happened at Arlington last week. Why are people still talking about this?
From TruthSocial:
Parfigliano
My wife and I were talking about this 2 days ago. We both get adds for things we discuss but have never actually searced on the internet. Products, vacation ideas…
MomSense
@Old School:
I thought he had video proof!
The Audacity of Krope
He did until someone smarter reviewed it and told him how it looked.
MattF
@Old School: Rumor is that the shover was Steve Cheung.
SatanicPanic
I kinda don’t care. If I’m thinking about a trip to Belize and it starts showing up on my internet searches it might actually prompt me to getting around to doing it.
I can see the problems this could cause if it were driving people to cults or to political radicalization, but it seems like the algorithms are already set to do this without listening to us talk. I suppose it could get worse if some evil person decides to combine machine learning + listening to your phone + cult recruiting. That would be bad. Just think the focus on advertising points to something that’s just not that important.
Coyoteville
OT, I just donated $55 for Four Directions Montana 2024 Phase II.
And I see that it has shown up on the Thermometer.
Coyoteville
Omnes Omnibus
@A Ghost to Most: Including blogs?
@mistermix.bsky.social
@SatanicPanic:
But wouldn’t it be better if:
In my view, those are the bare minimum of what consumers should expect from any platform that harvests their data.
Trollhattan
I operate my teevee from the stream box remote and the teevee remote sits on the media stand next to the speakers.
The other day an actor ordered a product using voice command and the teevee remote picked up the audio and next thing I know, the teevee was trying to place the order in front of my eyes.
I have no moral, just wow, life is complicated.
With Firefox I use Facebook Container extension.
Prevent Facebook from tracking you around the web. The Facebook Container extension for Firefox helps you take control and isolate your web activity from Facebook.
bbleh
Even taking their statement at face value, META does not use your microphone for ads, and they are “seeking clarification” that CMG is not using Meta DATA, but that certainly seems to leave a lot of room for their “partner” to use a, let’s call it “service capability” that’s built into the Facebook app.
It IS worth remembering though, that we all voluntarily carry tracking devices AND bugs around with us everywhere we go.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: blogs are antisocial media
p.a.
SatanicPanic
@@mistermix.bsky.social: Sure, that would be good. This is pretty low down on my wishlist though. Bad actors using the platform to spread propaganda is a much bigger concern for me. And I know that propagandists target based on user data so it’s not entirely a separate problem.
Steve LaBonne
@p.a.: Josh Marshall has some relevant thoughts.
Steve LaBonne
@Baud: Like when Loomis is being antisocial on LGM.
lowtechcyclist
If Facebook’s getting info about me, they’re definitely getting it from sources other than Facebook, since the only reason I open FB these days is to see what the specials are at Pinky’s Eatery, a local carryout which doesn’t have a website outside of its FB presence. I’m blissfully unaware of what ads they’re putting in my FB feed, so if they’re targeted, it’s not doing them any good in my case.
They’d even have to get my cell phone number from somewhere else since I’ve never accessed FB from my phone, and I didn’t have this phone number when I originally set up my FB account, so I couldn’t have given it to them then.
There are advantages to being a Luddite.
bbleh
@Steve LaBonne: redundant?
NutmegAgain
I only do FB on my laptop, and that’s only so I can connect with dog-related things, like the newfy rescue. I’ve never thought that anything I put in any kind of communication on my computer, never mind the phone, is potentially available to somebody I won’t like. I also don’t have an Alexa or whatever; I don’t need my coffee pot spying on me.
lowtechcyclist
@NutmegAgain:
“Siri, who’s collecting information on me right now?”
TBone
@JiveTurkin: if the product is “free,” you are the product.
TBone
@A Ghost to Most: 👍
Ishiyama
Open topic – I watched the launch of the Reproductive Rights tour in Florida: youtube.com/watch?v=2_kMawqm1j0
I’ve been waiting for someone to say what Jaime Harrison said: “We have our MVP in Kamala Harris, and we have our Coach in Tim Walz, but any winning team needs some role players.” Run the ball clear down the field, it’s touchdown sure this time.
Jacqueline Squid Onassis
I’ve tried very, very hard to keep any apps that I’m not forced into having off of my phone. They all steal your data – text messages, locations, phone logs, other apps, etc. – and it’s just not worth having their app on my phone in exchange for making them rich with my data.
But I am old so I’m sure my opinion on this doesn’t matter/is totally wrong.
Gin & Tonic
@Steve LaBonne: All you people on B-J who complain about LGM – there’s a very simple solution to your problem.
different-church-lady
They honestly just don’t get why normal people would find this creepy.
Lumpy
The first link (that says Delete Facebook) doesn’t work for me… maybe it works for other people? I would share a working link.
Matt McIrvin
@lowtechcyclist: The claim is that they can listen to your microphone even if you don’t have Facebook open.
Is it technically possible for them to do this? Yes, I’m pretty sure it is. Do they do it? I know of no one ever managing to prove that they do, and they claim they don’t, but it’s difficult to prove the negative without access to their source code.
I suspect they can already glean enough of a model of you from the behavior that people have explicitly allowed them to track to create the *appearance* that they’re listening to everything you say. They’re certainly peeping at everything you read or say on Facebook.
different-church-lady
@Jacqueline Squid Onassis: Ah, but you see, many many people of all ages feel this way. However, it behooves the tech pushers to get us to believe we’re all just isolated old cranks.
BethanyAnne
Amazon has a “creep filter” that is on, on the default public site. It degrades their recommendations so that users don’t get creeped out. My old boss used their dev beta site, and that had it turned off for a few weeks. And he said it was truly creepy. They were recommending books and albums to complete different collections he had, that they should have had no knowledge of – likely harvested from the backgrounds of video calls. His position at HP made the access plausible to me, and he wasn’t the sort to exaggerate for effect. Our conversation on this was 9 years ago.
TBone
@Jacqueline Squid Onassis: come sit by me.
Anyway
The real reason to h8 Zuck is his cowering before GQP pols and his second thoughts regarding “suppressing” vaccine misinformation. I think he envies Apartheid Clyde …
Geoduck
@Old School: Yeah, that’s the amazing thing here. If he’d just shut up about Arlington, the media would happily bury the story for him.
Splitting Image
@lowtechcyclist:
Siri: Every major company except Apple. I have no information on whether Apple is collecting information.
“Hmmm. Alexa, who’s collecting information on me right now?”
Alexa: Every major company except Amazon. I have no information on whether Amazon is collecting information.
“Hmmm. Cortana, who’s collecting information on me right now?”
Cortana: Every major company except Microsoft. If Microsoft collected information from its users, every second version of Windows wouldn’t have been the total trainwreck that they were.
Gin & Tonic
Funny thing about FB – my younger daughter was an undergrad at an Ivy the year FB was launched; for a couple of years it was only open to people with .edu e-mails, which I happen to have even though I’m not a student or faculty member. So when I said “huh, maybe I should open an account” she said “absolutely not.” So I never did, inertia being what it is. Now everybody and their aunt uses FB, and the original target market wants nothing to do with it – I don’t think she has posted anything on FB in years. I’ve never missed it.
And, yes, I have an Instagram account, under a completely fake name and e-mail that I use for *nothing* else.
Old Dan and Little Ann
How can anyone in 2024 be surprised that our phones are listening to us? I don’t think deleting FB would do a gd thing.
Ryan
Why do you use Facebook? I mean, it’s so old! It’s like that scene when Rooster and Maverick climb into the 1980s era F-14.
The Audacity of Krope
I, for one, acted on that solution.
different-church-lady
The modern Apple mobile devices have indicator lights for when the microphone is active. You also need to give specifically give individual apps permission to use the mic.
* Do other manufacturers have the same features nowadays?
* Obviously none of this is foolproof: I’m sure there are ways dishonest actors can hack around it.
Steve LaBonne
@Gin & Tonic: A solution which I implemented a while back, to the point of deleting my Disqus account. But I can still point and laugh.
The Audacity of Krope
First of all, do you know how many other technology brands Facebook owns?
TBone
Nuking from orbit is the way to be sure it’s dead.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Samsung has a light.
HumboldtBlue
I avoid this by never using Facebook.
different-church-lady
“Alexa, why does Jeff Bezos have all the money?”
“Because you all gave it to him, so you’d never have to get off the couch ever again.”
TBone
@different-church-lady: 😆
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Stop making Vance relatable.
different-church-lady
@Steve LaBonne: I’m still swatting them around like cat toys.
different-church-lady
@Baud: “get off the couch”, not “get off on the couch”
theturtlemoves
@bbleh: My thoughts, as well. That dude is essentially the right-wing stereotype of a left-wing academic dickhead.
prostratedragon
From Joyce Vance just now:
Related comment seen elsewhere:
A live look at Mar-a-Lago
BigJimSlade
Cruise marketers can read your mind, whenever you think about cruises specifically, so that might not be the best test scenario ;-)
TBone
I had to cancel a new credit card, never used, because Bezos charged me $99 for a Prime account – how in the hell did he get my card number? I asked the customer service rep to review my purchases on my old card. “Do YOU see any purchases from Amazon made by me, ever?” “Uh, no.”
The gatdamned credit card company sold the numbers to him. That fraud report was fun to make!
The Audacity of Krope
I can’t think of anyone better suited for the job.
PatrickG
@Gin & Tonic:
Bring Loomis on as a front pager here so he can ban me twice? Intriguing idea!
Old Dan and Little Ann
@The Audacity of Krope: I do not know and I don’t care. I was driving through Oswego in 2010 before I had FB. I drove by a JC Penney’s and said out loud. “Since when do they still have JC Pennwy stores?” Later that night i was getting JC Penney ads and emails. Our phones know everything whether we like it or not.
TBone
@prostratedragon: did someone say fraud? 😆😎
SpaceUnit
I’m not on Facebook. I also cover the camera on my computer and iPad with tape. People tell me I’m paranoid.
I respond with a blank stare.
Baud
If phones were recording everything we do, I’m pretty sure I’d get more ads for toilet paper.
Kristine
@SatanicPanic: idk. Prior to the 2020 election, I was grocery shopping and overheard a woman on her phone telling whoever that if Biden won the country would turn communist. Granted she may already have been an unreachable hardcore trumper.
Redshift
I uninstalled the FB Android app something like ten years ago because the list of permissions it requested on installation made it clear it was basically spyware. (Android was a lot less picky about what access it would let an app request in those days.) Since then, I’ve only accessed it on the web.
So would they do this? Absolutely, if they could. I remain unconvinced that they can, though. I’m sure it’s technically possible (like that Israeli spyware), but not without blatantly violating the app store requirements in a way that would get you banned. You could argue that Google or Apple could be in on it, but letting Facebook do it, and for the purpose of cutting into Google’s core advertising business? I just don’t buy it.
TBone
@prostratedragon: lookee here, what we can do when we focus:
Tick tock, Donvict!
crooksandliars.com/2024/09/us-seizes-maduros-airplane-sanctions
Matt McIrvin
@Old Dan and Little Ann: Your phone may not have been listening to you but it definitely knew you drove past the JC Penney.
cain
I stay the hell away from FB – I know it is spying on me. Your alexa and google assistant are spying on you. The whole industry is worth billions of being able to understand real time customer interactions.
But humans are chaotic people, you’ll never really learn anything about them based on their behaviors. Except for conservatives. You can figure those people out right quick as they all follow the same pattern, and watch the same stuff.
cain
@TBone: Except in the U.S. where an ex-president can do anything he wants and a president in office can also do any number of law breaking things as an ‘official act’.
VeniceRiley
It happens so often my wife and I laugh about it.
cain
Can’t wait to switch to a linux phone eventually. I got a postmarketos phone – I know it doesn’t spy on me. :)
Old Dan and Little Ann
@Matt McIrvin: I did enjoy circling my Xmas list from the catalog they sent me that fall. My star wars sheets were almost 35 years old.
HumboldtBlue
Why the fuck is Dana Bash on MSNBC?
NutmegAgain
@TBone: Now if this were LG&M I would ask if nuking from orbit involves Jewish Space Lasers? /s
TBone
@cain: it was the U.S. that did the seizing. Lest we forget, Donvict is still just an ordinary, plain old citizen and convicted felon. Let me have my hopes and dreams, please.
Bill Arnold
@bbleh:
Anyone who uses an iPhone can control what accesses apps have.
It’s worth going through the access lists at least once and pruning/limiting access, at least for the apps normally used. Location, camera, microphone in particular. Location “while using” for most apps that location is sufficient.
Gloria DryGarden
@Matt McIrvin: I heard it is even when your phone is off, and try an experiment, w phone off. Mention some thing you don’t normally, something y don’t want to buy. And see what ads y get
TBone
@NutmegAgain: just a simple Faraday Bag! $25 well spent (and soon to be used in classrooms across the nation!).
LGM is too much drama from what I understand 😂
Baud
Just throwing this out there for discussion purposes.
Baader–Meinhof phenomenon
different-church-lady
One thing I’ve noticed with my friends: they never close apps on their phones. They give me their phone to fix or do something with, and I find like literally 38 apps open. It’s as if they don’t know they can close an app. Any one of those might be a listening culprit.
different-church-lady
@Baud: ”Suddenly someone’ll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o’ shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin’ for one, either.”
KM in NS
This absolutely happens! About 6 months ago, I was walking back to the office with my colleagues, and I said something about those cool, expensive shoes with the funky heels. By the time I got back to the office, I had an ad for Fluevog: fluevog.com/
Even in Canada…
…now to read the comments from the beginning…
different-church-lady
So, in addition: in iOS, there’s a place you can go in the settings (can’t remember where exactly) where you can go an review all the apps you’ve given microphone permission to, and switch them off if you want. I think just as a general security thing it pays to review that page every once in a while. Like, maybe there was one time when I needed to give Firefox access to my mic and I forgot to switch it back off, for example.
So, everyone, go check to see if the mic is even active to your browser and switch it off if you don’t need it.
The Audacity of Krope
One habit my new phone has that I hate is every time I open my web browser from my home screen, it opens a new tab. Even if I’m just opening it up to resume looking at what I had been just before minimizing the page.
On a typical day I generate 5 or 6 unique tabs on my browser from maybe 2 Balloon Juice threads then notice them in bunches when I do cleanup.
Captain C
@PatrickG: Loomis would leave in a huff after a few days at most when he found out that Cole would have to approve his bans.
different-church-lady
@Captain C: Cole would probably kick Loomis off for his bullshit before it even got that far.
Bill Arnold
@SatanicPanic:
Well, yeah, but propaganda and marketing are closely related, sharing many similar methods.
This article is not long, and their differentiation disappears if you squint hard enough:
3. What Is The Difference Between Marketing Vs Propaganda?
Baud
FWIW, newer android versions are more ios-like privacy settlings than the older ones did. It’s still a more open OS, however, for better or worse.
TBone
@Baud: just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me!
@different-church-lady: when I revoke permissions, my phone doesn’t operate. If I turn off microphone permissions, I can’t make a phone call at all.
different-church-lady
@TBone: No no, it’s app specific (on iOS at least): you can tell Safari to ‘eff off but still give the phone/text/facetime apps permission to use the mic.
different-church-lady
@Bill Arnold: Crime is when you try to deceive me. Marketing is when I try to deceive you.
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Same on newer versions of android.
TBone
@different-church-lady: I don’t have that newfangled technology!
Another Scott
Of course they don’t use your phone’s microphone for ads.
They use your phone’s microphone to convert changes in sound pressure level and changes in frequency response into analog electrical signals which your phone changes into digital data and metadata information which are sent by Meta’s apps to Meta’s servers which they feed into their algorithms that serve ads.
Who knows what the algorithm does? It’s computer stuff. Nobody understands that. It’s very complicated and totally objective and not nefarious at all. It’s just adding and subtracting 1s and 0s. Not spying and selling everything about your life to anyone who will pay them, not at all. Whatever would give you that idea??
But the really important thing is that they don’t use your phone’s microphone for ads.
HTH!!1
[groucho-roll-eyes.gif]
Cheers,
Scott.
VOR
@SatanicPanic: the YouTube algorithm is convinced I secretly want more Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, and Andrew Tate content. There are a myriad of channels which re-package the core content using innocuous channel names. YouTube keeps putting this bilge in front of me and I keep blocking the channels.
HumboldtBlue
Lauren Boebert got smacked around on the debate stage today. You love to see it.
prostratedragon
@TBone: I haven’t homed in on it, but isn’t there some story about him using Epstein’s plane these days?
prostratedragon
@Baud: I’ve noticed that phenom myself, with surnames in the news, especially if they’re a bit unusual for me. Something to try to screen out.
geg6
@Raven:
I honestly have had this happen to me, too. Just a couple times but it’s the weirdest sensation. So creepy.
Matt McIrvin
@Gloria DryGarden: Then try it with the phone’s battery removed, and if it still happens, that suggests that this isn’t something real.
(The problem with all that is is that it’s, for the most part, both well within the range of technical possibility, maddeningly hard to disprove, and maddeningly easy to imagine. I think that a lot of the things people imagine happening because the phone is listening to them, are in fact happening because the phone is sharing other information that they technically authorized by clicking through a EULA or something. It’s easy for the software to glean a lot about your interests by following clicks, the text you read and post, and your physical motions in space, all of which you are definitely sharing unless you specifically opted out.)
mrmoshpotato
This doesn’t surprise me at all.
VeniceRiley
It’s all to confusing and intense for most people. What we need is a foolproof “STOP SPYING ON ME” app. Pre-install and watch your phone sales grow!