Three quick housekeeping notes. First, Rosie is doing great. She’s got all of this week off before her next chemo treatment a week from Monday. Thank you for all the good thoughts, well wishes, prayers, and donations.
Second, how about everyone dial it back a notch or two in the comments. I get that these updates aren’t fun to read, that everyone of good conscience is bothered by what is happening in Ukraine, as well as in other places like Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel, and Sudan, that I simply don’t have the time and energy to cover. But how about we don’t go after each other if we can avoid it.
Three, last week was very long, despite it being short because of the Labor Day holiday here in the US. And it’s been a long weekend as well. So, I’m going to just run down the basics tonight.
The Russians opened up on Derhaci in Kharkiv Oblast today:
One person died, and at least 13 were injured in today’s russian attack on Derhaci. A child is among the injured. https://t.co/RPHyhi88rN pic.twitter.com/KaZ69Kh6a2
— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) September 8, 2024
And have just launched at least on glide bomb on a target in Kharkiv around 8:10 PM EDT/3:10 AM local time in Ukraine.
Explosion in Kharkiv ‼️ russian glide bombs struck the city s few minutes ago.
— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) September 9, 2024
President Zelenskyy returned from his official travel and has posted a new address. Video below, English transcript after the jump.
Our Main Focus Now, at the Beginning of the Fall, is to Strengthen the Positions of Ukraine as Much as Possible – Address by the President
8 September 2024 – 19:56
I wish you health, fellow Ukrainians!
Today, we have already started working to implement all the agreements we reached with our partners this week. The Ramstein meeting, meetings in Germany, meetings in Italy. Separately, Ukraine’s Defense Minister and our military worked in France, the UK, and also in Germany. We are very much counting on results from the conversation with U.S. Secretary of Defense Austin. There were important negotiations with Chancellor Scholz and President of the Council of Ministers of Italy Giorgia Meloni.
We consistently work with representatives of both parties in the United States – on the sidelines of the Forum in Italy, I met with a delegation of the U.S. Congress. We talked, in particular, about the victory plan for Ukraine – about some of its details, and we will present all the steps to U.S. President Biden and both presidential candidates, Trump and Harris, in full.
Our main focus now, at the beginning of the fall, is to strengthen the positions of Ukraine and Ukrainians as much as possible, protect our cities and villages from Russian terror, and, of course, provide more capabilities for our warriors on the frontlines. Pokrovsk, Toretsk, Kurakhove direction, and other areas of the highest concentration of Russian forces. I thank every brigade, every unit that holds their positions with true resilience.
This week brought new agreements on ammunition for Ukraine, as well as funding for the production of weapons, drones, and missiles in Ukraine. Air defense remains an unwavering priority. And we continue to persuade our partners at all levels about long-range capabilities. Russia can avoid seeking peace only as much as the world avoids making strong decisions aimed at Russia’s defeat. Long-range capabilities are one of those key, strategic decisions. I thank everyone around the world who is helping us bring these absolutely necessary steps by our partners closer. Now – for the announced steps at Ramstein, for other assistance that was agreed upon this week – I want to recognize Germany, the U.S., the United Kingdom, Canada, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Romania, Lithuania, and Latvia. Thank you all, friends!
And one more thing.
The beginning of this September, unfortunately, was marked by brutal Russian strikes. Just after the strike on the Poltava Institute of Communications, 220 wounded are still receiving inpatient treatment. Among them are people with severe and very severe injuries. I thank all the doctors and nurses who are doing everything they can to help and to save as many lives as possible. I also want to acknowledge the rescuers – the entire team of the State Emergency Service of Ukraine in the Poltava region, as well as in all the other regions where Russia is directing its missiles and drones. The Dnipropetrovsk region – especially Nikopol, Pavlohrad, our other cities, our other communities, our Kharkiv region, Donetsk region, Mykolaiv region, Lviv and Lviv region, Sumy region, and everywhere in Ukraine, our people and all the necessary services are working to rescue, help, and restore.
This week, I extend great gratitude to all the workers of the State Emergency Service of Ukraine in the Poltava region, especially Anatolii Vasylenko, Oleksandr Skakun, Oleksandr Yaremenko, Vladyslav Yurchenko, Mykola Pavlovskyi, Viktor Kuzmenko, Ihor Lytvyshko, Oleksandr Bidanets, Roman Bykhovyi, and Ihor Postavnyi. Thank you, guys! And also to the officers of the National Police of Ukraine in the Poltava region who assisted in the rescue operation – thank you all, and especially Yevhen Liabakh, Petro Skichko, Darya Kurylo and Mykhailo Lukoshyn.
Thank you to everyone who works and fights for Ukraine, for our people and our interests, the interests of our state, the Ukrainian state. Every day, every week must make Ukraine stronger.
Glory to Ukraine!
The reason:
This is what we’re fighting for. pic.twitter.com/ZMkhs6YwU1
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) September 8, 2024
⚡️Ukraine is building weapons underground to supply the military with arms in the event of delays in military aid from abroad, President Volodymyr Zelensky said at the Ambrosetti International Economic Forum in Italy on Sept. 7. https://t.co/2Qv5wNfgEw
— The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) September 8, 2024
The Kyiv Independent has the details:
Ukraine is building weapons underground to supply the military with arms in the event of delays in military aid from abroad, President Volodymyr Zelensky said at the Ambrosetti International Economic Forum in Italy on Sept. 7.
The Ukrainian president arrived in Italy to meet with local business leaders and Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni as Kyiv increasingly calls for additional air defenses and other aid to repel Russia’s aggression.
“We are building underground facilities for the production of weapons so that Ukrainian soldiers can defend themselves even when supplies from our partners are delayed,” Zelensky said.
Ukraine has developed new drones and missiles, particularly to “return the war to the Russian territory,” the president added.
“Sooner or later, Putin will feel the pressure and will want only one thing — peace,” Zelensky said.
Zelensky’s trip to Italy followed his visit to Germany, where he received additional pledges of military assistance at the 24th Ramstein group meeting and held talks with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
“Our people are under constant threat of Russian missile and drone strikes every, every night and every day,” Zelensky said in Italy. Russia recently deadly attacks against the Ukrainian cities of Kharkiv, Poltava, and Lviv.
According to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy (IfW Kiel), which tracks international aid for Ukraine, Italy has committed a total of 1.7 billion euros ($1.8 billion) in economic and military assistance to Ukraine as of June 2024.
Holding the Group of Seven (G7) rotating presidency in 2024, Italy hosted a summit that saw the announcement of a $50 billion loan for Ukraine covered by frozen Russian assets proceeds.
Italy will also host the 2025 Recovery Conference, inviting officials from 77 countries and 500 companies.
Iran:
“‘More than 200’ Fath-360 short-range ballistic missiles arrived in a Russian Caspian Sea port this week, according to senior Ukrainian officials familiar with the matter.” @ChristopherJM https://t.co/PTlI7w7EWJ pic.twitter.com/NJtfFJEJfD
— Rob Lee (@RALee85) September 8, 2024
From The Financial Times:
Iran has sent “hundreds” of ballistic missiles to Russia in what Kyiv officials said marks a “serious escalation” of Tehran’s support for Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.
“More than 200” Fath-360 short-range ballistic missiles arrived in a Russian Caspian Sea port this week, according to senior Ukrainian officials familiar with the matter.
The surface-to-surface missiles have a range of up to 120km and are likely to be used by Russia to strike infrastructure and northern cities close to the border, such as Kharkiv and Sumy, and troop positions and military targets along the frontline, including around the strategic eastern city of Pokrovsk, according to the Ukrainian officials.
The officials said the delivery of the Iranian short-range missiles will allow Russia to deploy its long-range hypersonic Kinzhal missiles — some of the most sophisticated weapons in the Kremlin’s arsenal — to hit targets deeper inside Ukraine. The Kinzhals are more difficult to intercept, with only US-made Patriot air defence systems capable of shooting them down.
Andriy Zagorodnyuk, a former Ukrainian defence minister and director of the Kyiv-based Centre for Defence Strategies, said the Iranian missiles pose a “huge threat”.
“They will be sent to destroy the Ukrainian energy system, most likely in towns and cities,” he said. “That most likely means more deaths of civilians all over the country.”
The Wall Street Journal first reported the missile shipment, citing US and European officials.
Russia has escalated its attacks launching hundreds of missiles and Iranian-made “Shahed” attack drones on Ukraine’s energy infrastructure in recent months, destroying 9GW of power generation capacity — half of the electricity Ukraine needs in winter — and causing widespread blackouts.
An Iranian-made Russian drone crashed in eastern Latvia on Sunday, with preliminary reports suggesting an accidental entry from Belarus, said officials in Riga.
On Saturday, Ukraine’s foreign ministry said it was deeply concerned about reports that Iran had sent the missiles to Russia and called on Tehran “to refrain from delivering any types of weapons and military equipment to Russia.” It said confirmation of the delivery would have “devastating consequences for Ukrainian-Iranian relations”.
In exchange for its drones and missiles, Tehran has received greater security co-operation from Moscow and military technology, according to Ukrainian intelligence assessments.
“The deepening of military-technical co-operation between Russia and Iran poses serious security threats not only for Ukraine, but for the whole of Europe, the Middle East and the world,” said the foreign ministry in Kyiv.
“We call on the international community to increase pressure on Tehran and Moscow to protect international peace and security.”
Ukraine’s western backers have not confirmed the delivery of Iranian missiles. But Sean Savett, a spokesperson at the US National Security Council, said on Sunday that Washington was alarmed by the reports and reiterated that together with allies, it was “prepared to deliver significant consequences”.
A transfer of ballistic missiles to Russia would “represent a dramatic escalation in Iran’s support for Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine”, said Savett, echoing comment by CIA director Bill Burns a day earlier at the Financial Times’ Weekend festival in London. “This partnership threatens European security and illustrates how Iran’s destabilising influence reaches beyond the Middle East.”
Iran’s foreign ministry spokesperson, Nasser Kanaani, dismissed the allegations of missile sales as “completely baseless”, claiming they were fabricated by western states for “political purposes”.
Speaking to state news agency IRNA on Sunday, he said “Iran-Russia military co-operation predates the Ukraine war and has no connection to the Ukraine crisis”, adding: “The Islamic republic has never been involved in this military conflict and supports a political resolution to end the crisis.”
More at the link.
Latvia:
Russian military drone has crashed in the Eastern part of Latvia yesterday. There is an ongoing investigation. We are in close contact with our allies. The number of such incidents is increasing along the Eastern flank of NATO and we must address them collectively.
— Edgars Rinkēvičs (@edgarsrinkevics) September 8, 2024
Lithuania:
Incidents unthinkable 3 yrs ago are now treated as routine. Nothing should be landing on Ukraine, or Latvia, or anywhere on NATO territory, but this is the new reality our inaction has allowed to emerge. Lithuania will of course be supporting a strong allied response.
— Gabrielius Landsbergis🇱🇹 (@GLandsbergis) September 8, 2024
Germany:
Someone should remind Scholz, who’s so desperate to start doing business with Russia, that a few weeks ago Putin openly said that no negotiations are possible now. https://t.co/M9x3S3jlCN
— Ivana Stradner (@ivanastradner) September 8, 2024
Here are the details from The Kyiv Independent:
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz emphasized the urgency of resolving Russia’s war against Ukraine, stating that he and President Volodymyr Zelensky agree on the need to include Russia in future peace negotiations.
As Russia’s war stretches into its third year, Kyiv has said it aims to invite a Russian representative to the second conference to present a peace plan based on Zelensky’s peace formula and international input.
“There will certainly be a further peace conference, and the president and I agree that it must be one with Russia present,” Scholz said during an interview with Germany’s ZDF public television.
Scholz also stressed the importance of accelerating efforts to end the war: “I believe that now is the moment when we must discuss how we get out of this war situation faster than the current impression is.”
This push for diplomatic engagement comes as Scholz faces growing political challenges at home, with recent state elections showing gains for populist parties that oppose military support for Ukraine, adding pressure on his coalition government.
Speaking a day ahead of Ukraine’s global peace summit held on June 15-16 in Switzerland, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that as a condition for peace negotiations, Ukraine must fully withdraw from four partially occupied oblasts that Moscow illegally annexed in 2022.
Kyiv rejected this demand and Zelensky continues to advocate for his 10-point peace plan, which calls for the expulsion of all Russian forces from Ukrainian territory and accountability for war crimes.
Britain:
Storm Shadow stocks are depleted and that’s ultimately why Taurus is important. https://t.co/RHeNNomy4u
— Shashank Joshi (@shashj) September 8, 2024
The former UK Defence Secretary visited a factory earlier in the year and talked about ‘production’, but I haven’t seen anything that suggests brand new missiles are being produced for the UK, as opposed to older ones being upgraded or re-conditioned. 3/5 https://t.co/XsRwhMf12M
— Matthew Savill (@MTSavill) September 8, 2024
That means that the UK only has Storm Shadow as an air-launched stand-off weapon, until the future cruise/anti-ship weapon comes into service (probably still fours years away, at best). 5/5https://t.co/ouile4CDEH
— Matthew Savill (@MTSavill) September 8, 2024
Donetsk Oblast:
Unfortunately, situation in Donetsk region continues to deteriorate.
One of the biggest issues is that generals are completely disconnected from the reality, most don’t even understand the state of our forces, don’t know real sitatuation on the ground. They try to wage war based… pic.twitter.com/GRWMTCNlWI
— ✙ 🔼Constantine 🔼✙ (@Teoyaomiquu) September 8, 2024
Unfortunately, situation in Donetsk region continues to deteriorate.
One of the biggest issues is that generals are completely disconnected from the reality, most don’t even understand the state of our forces, don’t know real sitatuation on the ground. They try to wage war based on the numbers and statistics instead of actually understanding what’s going on.
They look that have a brigade on paper without understanding that half of the brigade people with contusions, injuries and simply can’t participate in combat. This results in a complete disconnect from the reality.
I am currently trying to help units do more with less by providing equipment that reduces manpower needed for building fortifications and logistics, and we are changing situation for units on the ground, but a lot of work ahead.
Sorry if this upsets you, but it has to be said.
Also, Donetsk:
Read about the danger to be Ukrainian cultural worker in occupation. Thank you @SKishkovsky for covering important topic. https://t.co/3wK3iLBGLU
— Ukrainian Art History (@ukr_arthistory) September 8, 2024
Even more from Donetsk:
Tsukuryne – Zhelanne Pershe, Donetsk region. Nine civilians and four dogs were successfully evacuated.
Ukrainians are suffering greatly from having to leave their homes, family and friends. They hate the war unleashed by Russia and Putin.
Many residents remain in the frontline… pic.twitter.com/ZckXF2RJ0X
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) September 8, 2024
Tsukuryne – Zhelanne Pershe, Donetsk region. Nine civilians and four dogs were successfully evacuated.
Ukrainians are suffering greatly from having to leave their homes, family and friends. They hate the war unleashed by Russia and Putin.
Many residents remain in the frontline areas.
📹: deniskhrystoff/TikTok
From The Art Newspaper:
The release on 28 June of the Ukrainian museum researcher Olena Pekh from Russian captivity, has shed light on the plight of other forcibly disappeared Ukrainian cultural workers.
Pekh worked at the art museum in Horlivka, a city in eastern Ukraine that was a flashpoint in the battle between Russian-backed forces and the Ukrainian military after the illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014. A Ukrainian citizen, Pekh had moved to Odesa, but was detained in 2018 when she went to Russian-controlled territory near Horlivka to visit her sick mother. In 2020, she was sentenced to 13 years in prison on charges of state treason against the Russian-controlled Donetsk People’s Republic.
Her release—along with nine others, including two Ukrainian Catholic priests—was mediated by the Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky and Pope Francis.
Pekh’s daughter, Isabella, kept her mother’s case on the agenda by lobbying Zelensky as well as international human rights groups and cultural organisations for her release. Isabella regularly described the torture, rape, and mock executions her mother experienced, telling Prisoners Voice, a website and app documenting stories of Ukrainian political prisoners, that she had tried to take her own life to end the ordeal: “My mum said she was regularly electrocuted, which is why she now has problems with her legs… she had epileptic seizures… she cut her veins because she could no longer stand the abuse.”
“Banksy of Donetsk”
Isabella Pekh recounted the details of her mother’s imprisonment in a report titled “Unpunished Crimes: Sexual Violence of the Russian Occupying Forces Against Ukrainian Women”. The report was compiled by researchers at the Raphael Lemkin Center for Documenting Russian Crimes, launched by Poland’s Pilecki Institute after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. A Polish journalist working with the Lemkin Center on the project was among the first to report on Olena Pekh’s release.
The report is illustrated with graphic drawings by Serhiy Zakharov, a Donetsk artist who was dubbed the “Banksy of Donetsk”. He was imprisoned for a month-and-a-half in 2014 for mocking the Russian occupation through his street art. Zakharov now lives in Kyiv and works with Izolyatsia, an art foundation that had to be evacuated from its base in a Donetsk factory after Russian-backed forces turned it into a prison.
In moving footage, Pekh was led out of Kyiv airport on 29 June with Ukraine’s blue-and-yellow flag wrapped around her shoulders. She appeared gaunt and haunted from her six-year ordeal, yet elated by her release.
Pekh and her daughter spoke via video, in tears. “Don’t cry my baby, I love you very much,” Olena told Isabella. “I’m in Ukraine,” she said. “Don’t cry. It’s all over. It’s over, my little one [..] I’m home.”
More at the link!
Avdiivka:
Today was meant to be a day of Avdiivka. The day remains, but the city does not. https://t.co/MIRMrBSKFd
— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) September 8, 2024
The quoted tweet machine translates as:
city day is and there is no city
Kyiv:
When the pressure of constant Russian attacks gets too much, residents of Kyiv head out to the breathtaking hills above the Dnipro to catch a break from missiles and drones. All they want is victory. pic.twitter.com/892h5QKWRH
— Maria Avdeeva (@maria_avdv) September 8, 2024
Poltava:
In Poltava, the number of victims of the Russian attack on the Institute of Communications has increased.
Officials reported that three more people died in hospitals. In total, 58 people died as a result of the missile strike on September 3rd pic.twitter.com/5yD4YrEXC5
— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) September 8, 2024
Russian occupied Crimea:
🔥 Warehouses are burning in Kerch, Crimea pic.twitter.com/8bpSdNryNl
— MAKS 24 🇺🇦👀 (@Maks_NAFO_FELLA) September 8, 2024
The Kursk cross border offensive:
/23. Strikes on Russian bridge in Karyz, Kursk regionhttps://t.co/Hi2FozfEI4 pic.twitter.com/1N5gzXgqQV
— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) September 8, 2024
Belgorod Oblast, Russia:
Russian media report a drone attack on a fuel storage site in Belgorod region of Russia.
Locals report that railway tanks are on fire. pic.twitter.com/XlqIGyPqjp
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) September 8, 2024
That’s enough for tonight.
Your daily Patron!
There are no new Patron tweets or videos tonight. Here is some adjacent material.
This is how the #dog Chester from #Novohrodivka is happy, when his new owner comes back home from work 💔#Evacuation of animals from the frontline continues …
PayPal: [email protected]#animalrescue #war #evacuation pic.twitter.com/mMuGD1mIJo
— Animal Rescue Kharkiv 🇺🇦 (@AnimalRescueKh) September 3, 2024
💔Heartbreaking story of adoption the puppy Zara, which we have rescued from the frontline in #Donbass .
PayPal: [email protected]#animalrescue #war #evacuation #ukraine pic.twitter.com/2L9BsO86OM
— Animal Rescue Kharkiv 🇺🇦 (@AnimalRescueKh) September 2, 2024
Open thread!
Jay
Thank you, Adam.
Jay
https://nitter.poast.org/GlasnostGone/status/1832678499011768612#m
The “Grope and Flail” wrote an article excusing the ruZZian propaganda hiding as a film and the TIFF for showing it.
https://nitter.poast.org/WhatADdoing/status/1832815240968331401#m
In case you want to sound off to the Grope and Flail,
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/about/contact/#:~:text=Account%20Maintenance%20%E2%80%93%201%2D800%2D,%2C%20mobile%20website%2C%20desktop).
wjca
Thank you, Adam
TooTallTom
Hi Adam, thank you for your continued efforts.
Any recommendations on best way to lobby the Biden administration to change policy, and allow UKR missile attacks on RuZZian bases on RU soil?
Jay
@TooTallTom:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
I would point out in contacting them, that Ukraine, Gaza and the West Bank will be Biden, Blinkin and Sullivan’s legacy, all the bodies will be at their door, not covid recovery, not economic recovery, not stepping aside for the good of the country, etc.
HumboldtBlue
Who Let the Dogs Out: Robot Dogs in Ukraine
lashonharangue
Thank you, Adam.
Harrison Wesley
@Jay: I agree, but ‘legacy’ as seen by who? Average American citizens look at domestic issues more than foreign policy, in which they assume their wise elders will Do What’s Right. That’s not a knock on American citizens – most people respond to what effects their daily lives, and (as is the case in America) they’ve grown up trusting their government’s foreign policy.
I think (and that’s not even worth a cup of coffee) that the American establishment believed the Mighty Power of Sanctions would destroy Russia and that the IDF could exterminate all Palestinians before things got really embarrassing and USA might be called upon to attack Iran (which DJT would almost certainly do). Things are not going according to plan. We should help Ukraine, having pulled the rug from under it in the first place. But I don’t think we will.
Harrison Wesley
For Adam:
Adam, I apologize if I’m adding to hostility here. Such is not my intent. Whatever my opinions, right, wrong, strong, weak – they’re not clubs to beat commenters here over the head with.
If I’ve offended people, I want to say I’m sorry. A feeling of self-righteousness doesn’t automatically give you the high ground, y’know?
Chet Murthy
@Harrison Wesley: OTOH, look at LBJ: he wanted his legacy to be his domestic programs. But instead, it was Vietnam. That said, I don’t believe that either of Ukraine or I/P are bad enough that they’ll be Biden’s legacy. This is a sad statement on the state of the American populace, but I think it’s simply true. I/P and Ukraine ain’t no Vietnam.
Chet Murthy
@Chet Murthy: On second thought: if Ukraine falls to Putin, then yeah, it’ll -define- Biden’s and Harris’ presidencies.
Traveller
I have several kind of meandering thoughts this evening:
1. Loved Jay’s link to IMDB, there are 24 reviews, 22 extremely negative, 2 positive…which I voted down…lol
2. In yesterday’s post, Another Scott posted the CIA’s Burn’s comments re potential of nuclear action by Russia. See his link here:
https://kyivindependent.com/risk-of-russias-use-of-nuclear-weapons-in-2022-was-real-cia-says/
Frankly, I am afraid of the even remote possibility of any nuclear use by Russia.
3. However, I am fairly pleased by the US threat…there will be no attack on anything or anywhere in Russia proper….but every soldier, every vehicle, every Russian asset will be under constant and continuing assault by US forces until not a single Russia will be left within the boundaries of Ukraine.
(parenthetically, under the right circumstances, this would be a good/reasonable intervention in this war).
4. Lastly, I thought I was pretty clever making the reference to the Livonian War (1558–1583), early Russian successes in an effort to take over Latvia and Estonia, but, after 15 years, Ivan IV (the Terrible), was forced to sign a humiliating peace in 1583.
5. What I was missing was the fact that this also demonstrates that Russian Expansionism West has at least a 900 year cultural history…as does Estonia, Latvia, (latter allies, Poland, Denmark, Sweden), have a cultural history of successful resistance to Russia.
(what this all may mean ultimately, I don’t know, but it is interesting). Best Wishes,
Harrison Wesley
@Chet Murthy: This and your previous comment make a whole lot of sense to me.
Jay
Perun has a deep dive into ruZZia’s 2024 War Economy and Sanctions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tHkwLSS-DE
wjca
In the medium term (i.e. while those alive at the time are still around), maybe. But a hundred years from now? I’d bet historians consider his domestic programs far more significant in the long term. Vietnam will be seen as just another in a plethora of wars across the 20th century.
Jay
@wjca:
It’s been 55 years so far, LBJ’s legacy is dominantly Vietnam.
Fuck LBJ.
wjca
@Jay: And a lot of us who lived thru it and remember are still around. As noted, another hundred years won’t have those personal raw wounds still on the scene.
Chet Murthy
@wjca: I was born in 1965: everything I know about Vietnam is from films, books, learning in school. And ….. well, as much as I appreciate what LBJ did domestically (hell, my presence in the US is due to the Immigration Act of 1965, that his administration passed), I have to admit that LBJ’s legacy is still Vietnam. Maybe that’ll change. Maybe. But I kinda doubt it.
Chet Murthy
@wjca: “Vietnam will be seen as just another in a plethora of wars across the 20th century.”
I have to ask: is that really true? I mean, the world wars were about the reconfiguration of the West and the rise of the US. The Korean War brought us a new ally, one of the richest nations in the world today. The wars in Iraq were …. well, they were about oil, and also failures. But Vietnam, that was just a singular failure of a sort that even Iraq was not. Just a colossal failure. I don’t see how it gets classed as just another war among many.
Chet Murthy
@Chet Murthy: And going further: I’d think that the Bushes would be remembered for the Iraq wars, and for their failures there. So even if we think of Vietnam as the first of a series of failures by the US in war, LBJ doesn’t get off: in fact, he gets lumped together with the Bushes as failures — failures who took the US into wars we lost.
That is, looking back from a hundred years, the common element in these wars is that we lost, and once that’s the definition, well …. LBJ and the Bushes are at fault. that LBJ did good things domestically doesn’t seem to even be relevant, compared to that pattern of military failures.
Jay
@Chet Murthy:
LBJ’s legacy is:
#1 Vietnam,
#2 Civil Rights,
#3 Nixon.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: By #3 you mean ? [just curious]
Roberto el oso
@wjca: I agree. With the passage of time the responsibility for Vietnam will require the inclusion of other Presidents, specifically Eisenhower, definitely JFK, and, of course, Nixon, who expanded the horror and shame well beyond Vietnam proper.
wjca
The Vietnam War was certainly nothing like a success. A failure, even. But a colossal failure? Not really.
The US did have a bunch of people killed and wounded. Wasted a lot of resources (of which we had plenty) on equipment, etc. But no territory lost. No damage from attacks on our territory. Nothing like reparations.
As failures go in war, the price to the nation as a whole was comparatively mild.
Jay
@Chet Murthy:
1, LBJ gave up incumbency,
2, LBJ had evidence through US Intel Agencies that Nixon was using the Chennault’s to back door sabotage the Paris Peace Talks with the South Vietnamese Regime, and he buried it, deep.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: OK, I thought that might be what you were referring to. I don’t think that his failure to go after Nixon will be held against him for one simple reason: he wasn’t alone in not facing the Republican threat. Again and again, US Presidents and administrations failed to deal with Republican perfidy and treason: again and again. That doesn’t distinguish LBJ from other Presidents, right up to the current day, eh? I mean sure, the last 60-ish years will be called as filled with Republican perfidy that Democrats didn’t respond to, and allowed our Republic to get to the edge of being lost. But that won’t be held against any one President, and it’s small beer compared to Vietnam.
I don’t agree with wjca about the insignificance of Vietnam: I think that it was a sign of the end of US unilateral empire: the next time the US wanted to act militarily, it had to get consent from its allies. And the next time, when the US didn’t bother getting that consent, they fucked-up big time. But Vietnam — that was when the US stopped being a power that could act on its own.
Chet Murthy
@Chet Murthy: ” and allowed our Republic to get to the edge of being lost”
Haha, and that’s assuming that we don’t lose our Republic. Sigh.
AlaskaReader
Thanks Adam
Adam L Silverman
@AlaskaReader: You’re welcome.
Another Scott
@Chet Murthy: Tiny nit: Australia (and I think a few other allies) fought with us in Vietnam.
I don’t know if it was as big as the “coalition of the willing” under W, but the US wasn’t totally alone there.
It was a different time, and old white guys didn’t know how to think about how the world should change except in terms of black/white communist/free systems. Dominoes, etc. Stalin and Mao did a number on them, and the RWNJs were more than happy to ride red scares to power, and the SE Asian peoples paid a terrible price in our response.
(To be clear, Stalin and Mao were monsters, but we made huge mistakes trying to counter them and their ideologies.)
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.