Everything the Pitchbot says here is accurate. Yes, journalists circle the wagons against their critics because a lot of them have thin skins, but there’s also a palpable fear of what conservatives could do to them if they covered Trump the way he ought to be. https://t.co/DoZC97Oouf
— Jeremy Fassler (@J_fassler) September 22, 2024
Sometimes I feel like future historians (assuming such exist) will hunt for some logical explanation of our current media’s consistent failure to treat the current Republican party, as exemplified by TFG and the SC(R)OTUS, as a potentially civilization-ending threat: Microplastics crossing the blood/brain barrier, or epigenetic damage caused by food services at upper-end universities. But it’s really simple: Our Very Serious Media Betters have spent so many years, and grown so prosperous, recycling sewage… that they’ve developed a taste for it!
(1/X) I hate doing these, but I feel like I'm being baited to do so. A few days ago Maggie H did an interview where she complained criticism of her reporting, James Fallows answered back (mentioning this account) and Jon Chait and some Reason bro took a shot at Fallows for…
— New York Times Pitchbot (@DougJBalloon) September 22, 2024
(2/X) praising this account. First things first…Jon Chait and some obscure Reason bro lecturing James Fallows about journalism is ludicrous. Fallows is a legend, a five-time National Magazine Award finalist. More on this later…
(3/X) But first, Maggie admits “The systems are just fundamentally – they were not built to deal with somebody who says things that are not true as often as he does or speaks as incoherently as he (Trump) often does.” That’s exactly the point of all the criticism…
(4/X) of her and the Times’ coverage of Trump. It’s not built for Trump. Trump is hold to lower standards. Let’s just take a couple examples. The Times played a big role in forcing Biden out of the race (which has worked out great for Dems)…
(5/X) Two or three times a week, Trump does something that is more strongly indicative of dementia than anything Biden did during that debate. Is there any move to force him out?
——
(7/X) Likewise, there has been coverage of the hacked Trump campaign emails. I agree it is better not to cover them. But there is no way they wouldn’t be getting covered if they were emails from a Democratic campaign.(8/X) I don’t think anyone can dispute either of those two points: that there’s been no coverage of Trump’s dementia comparable to the discussion of Biden’s age and that hacked Democratic campaign emails would be getting covered.
(9/X). That’s a different standard and one that is markedly lower for Trump. It’s that simple. It doesn’t mean that the Times hasn’t taught the public a lot about Trump. There have been a lot of revealing stories. But they are easier on Trump than on other candidates..
(10/X) That’s how narcissistic sociopaths work. They get weak institutions to make special rules for them. What I find fascinating about the discussion of this obvious fact is that you have an in crowd (Times political journalists, ppl like Chait, large account Substackers),
(11/X) Who devote themselves to denying this obvious fact and those who assert its truth. It doesn’t matter if the person asserting is a no name like or a legend like James Fallows or James Risen. Doesn’t matter, they deserve scorn and derision.
(12/X) There are no serious arguments, just a lot of RESPECT MUH AUTHORITY and boiler-plate evidence-free assertions. Serious people know that Trump is getting tough coverage is the thrust of it.
——
(16/X) And no facts or investigation can change any of it. The Times is tough on Trump because they are tough on Trump. Don’t you get it, Resistance libtard?
Some so-called journalists are Trump’s mouthpiece. That’s not journalism, it’s propaganda. pic.twitter.com/XGxXNxQeJz
— Frances🇺🇸🦅 (@francesahen) September 22, 2024
The Fallows piece in question:
Obviously I disagree w main points here: that press has overall done very good job covering Trump, and that there is a left-wing "industry" that is "dedicated toward attacking the media," especially NYT.
But (seriously, no snark) credit to at least one prominent NYT figure for… https://t.co/OQdSJGERGS
— James Fallows (@JamesFallows) September 21, 2024
But (seriously, no snark) credit to at least one prominent NYT figure for acknowledging that there is a critique.
Next step would be engagement on some specifics people have actually been asking about:
– Why framing / headline / social-promo of stories takes a certain shape so predictably as to have given rise to the Pitchbot
– Why no retrospective public discussion, at all, about coverage in 2016 (Her emails!!!!) and lessons thereof. After Iraq WMD coverage, NYT under Bill Keller did a public retrospective (“what we got wrong”) etc
– Why no public explanation of diff between coverage of HRC/Podesta Russian-hacked emails and silence on Trump Iranian-hacked emails
– Why diff between extent / persistence of Biden “fitness to govern” cognitive overage vs Trump-cognitive issues.
– Thoughts about proportion of “guy in a diner” stories, vs “women in the suburbs” stories. And proportion of “econ is good but feels bad” stories.
– Whether there’s a diff in general outlook of coverage of US politics (need for “balance”) vs coverage of the rest of the range of news.
And so onWorth considering this as a start.
Outlets like the Times eliminated their public editor/ombudsman positions in the name of austerity and corporate synergy. With the excuse that social media would hold them accountable. Now all they do is piss and moan about social media holding them accountable. https://t.co/1UXnj97HwP
— zeddy (@Zeddary) September 23, 2024
You've been set up to fail. They made you the product designers, the marketing team, the distribution, AND the complaint department.
— zeddy (@Zeddary) September 23, 2024
War for Ukraine Day 948: Russia Double Taps a Hospital in Sumy
BruceFromOhio
I know the assignment.
piratedan
fuck those disingenuous fuckers.
If your job is to inform the public, you’ve failed
If your job is to repeat what a candidate said, you’ve failed
If your job is to translate the effects of proposed policies, you’ve failed
either we don’t understand their (the press) job properly or they don’t. If their job is not listed as above, then perhaps we should find and support organizations that do just that and ignore those that don’t.
Jay
LMAO, somebody in BC United Party, (the semi sane former Liberal Party splitters), gave all their oppo research on the BC Conservatives, (the wingnut former Liberal Party splitters), to the New Democratic Party, and the NDP are using all of it.
Everything from anti-vaccines, aliens are amongst us, flat earth, everything you would expect from your MAGA/QAnon Uncles Facebook feeds.
dmsilev
You know, I think I’d have a modicum more respect for the NYT political desk if they just didn’t deign to respond to criticism from us peasants. But instead, we get both the skewed coverage and the whining about how unfair the criticism is. That’s just pathetic.
Jay
@dmsilev: Always Be The Victim, FTNYT journalmentalism 101.
Ukai
Haberman and her ilk have been well compensated to not serve the interests of their readership. If they want to be regarded as serious journalists, they should try doing serious journalism.
Fuck their feelings.
HumboldtBlue
I just muted an ad airing on Fix sports that played the upcoming debate as a WWE event with the voice and everything. They’re gonna learn about teachers.
I’ll add, the Trump ads I have seen are weak, there’s no fizz, no hook, just grievance.
Petorado
Well, I guess Doug J may need to rename his little operation “NYT Pitchbot Industries”.
Nothing irritates Maggie Haberman so much as the truth.
Gloria DryGarden
Helping to create the thing they are afraid of, by giving such unbalanced coverage full of omissions and preferential treatment?
I’m thinking of the poem, first they came for the ___, I didn’t stand up, then they came for the ___, and again I didn’t do any thing …
If these journalists took a chance on telling the real deal about both sides, applying the same treatment and approaches to each candidate, and covering policies more factually and clearly,
They’d be making a stand, instead of endangering the country, and In stead of increasing the risk of getting the thing they fear…
Chet Murthy
@Gloria DryGarden: Let’s stipulate that these MSM stenographers are actually a-feared for their lives. Stipulate it. Then there’d be a slew of articles/op-eds written in the newspapers, by well-known folks, citing anonymous sources in the news biz, saying just that! Just that! I mean, it’d be the biggest story around — all these ink-stained wretches, too afraid to tell the truth! I mean, it ain’t like they’d keep it from their colleagues! And it’d all be anonymous — on the down-low!
But that’s not what we see: what we see is not a *peep* about any such fears. From which we can conclude that they’re not afraid at all: they’re complying in advance at best, and working to hasten the revolution at worst.
Gloria DryGarden
The writers for the “right wing” have an industry going….
Blaming others for what they are doing themselves. Like some other people we’ve been discussing these many months.
Ruckus
Much of the media is in the business for the money that many people pay regularly to receive the publications. And not much more.
And on occasion they actually print solid stuff – some of them.
It is a business like many others – in it for the money not the product, and as long as the product makes money they are fine with it. Think about how much media you purchase and read and try going with much less for say 2 weeks and see how that feels. If you feel that you are missing the entire ship and that’s OK because it now feels like it’s actually the Titanic of information products, think about how much money you are saving and if it’s a significant amount then maybe you are now actually ahead. If not, resubscribe and carry on. I used to take 2 newspapers and after a while I figured out that it really wasn’t worth it any more and I’m not wasting a lot of paper. I get my news from the internet, it’s cheaper and less wasteful.
Elizabelle
Pitchbot, James Fallows, and Dan Froomkin are treasures. Am sure the late and much missed Eric Boehlert would be working hard to provide an honest record, as well.
Haberman is a publicist who uses her journalism skills.
And I am glad to see the FTF NY Vichy Times coming in for such derision. I wish Putz Sulzberger and his executive editor Joseph Kahn and the whack DC political team could sink into the ocean. Putz, though, is really destroying a paper that has been problematic in the past, but not THIS ridiculous.
Gloria DryGarden
Incensed, I feel
Chet Murthy
@Gloria DryGarden: I wonder if there are tastefully-made t-shirts with “FTFNYT” on ’em ?
NotMax
Forghet PTSD.
We’re well into NYTSD.
Ruckus
@HumboldtBlue:
I’ll add, the Trump ads I have seen are weak, there’s no fizz, no hook, just grievance.
In my opinion that’s all shitforbrains was ever worth, just grievance. Grievance that he wasn’t being lauded for all his greatness. Of course once he hit the big time most everyone found out that we weren’t missing one iota of anything, because as above – it is all grievance. And always has been. It’s his grievance for not being lauded as he imagines he should be, but is being lauded for his real worth, which is FAR LESS, as in only NEGATIVE.
Gloria DryGarden
@Elizabelle: she’s officially a PR person? Isn’t that what a publicist is? Marketing, right?
Doesn’t that make her actually staff for the candidate she supports?
And thus more a propagandist, and less of a “journalist?”
Jackie
@HumboldtBlue:
Exactly as his campaign is. His ads are a reflection of his campaign; just as Harris’ ads are a reflection of her campaign. Hope, joy and the future.
MagdaInBlack
@HumboldtBlue: Grievance IS his hook. From the few trump lovers I do know, grievance is part of their everyday conversation.
Gloria DryGarden
@NotMax: NYTSD
New York times troubling terrifying stress disorder?
David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch
The media also hates to admit they’re wrong.
Chait Is a good example of that. He was a big supporter of the Iraq invasion and he refused to ever admit he was wrong, no matter how bad it got, no matter how many lies were exposed.
schrodingers_cat
My tweet response to DougJ
David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch
@Jackie: SNL played a clip of his rally tonight and it was the lowest of low energy. Pathetic.
prostratedragon
@Elizabelle: Years ago, early 00s iirc, he somewhere said in effect that he didn’t care about the future of the paper with the rising internet, basically that it was just an asset to be milked. I took him at his word.
Sure Lurkalot
Apparently, to no one’s shock here, Trump was exceedingly grotesque at one of his stops on his grievance tour tonight, telling people migrants will come into their kitchens and slit their throats, as well as the sweating, slurring and utter incoherence and here’s the media (in this case, Bloomberg) take:
Clips are everywhere, I defy anyone to match that headline with Trump’s hate fest. The media will be like this to the very end (of what, I dunno).
Poe Larity
Well I remember all that moaning when our ombudsman got sacked. No wonder DougJ left.
Splitting Image
If you’re still in doubt about Haberman’s political leanings, remember that for a conservative, “every accusation is a confession.”
She says that there is a left-wing industry set up to accuse the media of conspiring to help the Republican party. That is an accusation. Is it fair to call it a confession?
BR
@Sure Lurkalot:
I just don’t see any upside in Harris fighting with Trump on the border — the media won’t report on her speech or on Trump’s incoherence, so nobody is going to hear about her policy. I hope the speech she gave is the end of it except for one line in her speeches.
She’s got this if she talks about abortion and economics and turning the page generally.
Chet Murthy
@BR: I have to agree: immigration is “their” issue, and just bringing it up in voters’ minds is going to make them think about voting for the bastards. Best to try to fill their brains with abortion, the economy, abortion, abortion, women’s rights, and abortion.
Bill Arnold
DougJ, 2013 (this site).
Reposting since it appears to have fallen off search engines. (To my eye it’s only 2/3 snark.)
wjca
From what I’ve come across (i.e. nothing like a complete view) she’s primarily talking about the border to people who live along the border. C.f. her event in Douglas, AZ. For that audience, it is an up close and personal issue. And comes with a constant reality check. If that rally turns Cochise County blue, she’s got Arizona sewn up.
The only other time she talks about the border is to mention Trump scuttling the bipartisan border bill. It’s the kind of one-liner that shows up in media soundbytes because it fits their format.
Agreed, there’s little upside from expending significant bandwidth on an extended fight on the issue. But targetted punches here and there can still be worth throwing.
Jay
@wjca:
agree
JustRuss
O fuck the hell off. There is no “system” that was “built” to do anything. The media is a bunch of people deciding on the fly what stories to cover and how to cover them. But sure Magz, blame the system, there’s nothing you, or anybody, can do.
Chet Murthy
@JustRuss: It is a moral imperative to pirate FTFNYT.
Geminid
@Chet Murthy: Ruben Gallego’s situation is different than Harris’s but for what it’s worth, Gallego faces the border situation head on. He says there are real problems there that have to be solved, but solved in a smart way.
I think Gallego is right, too. Republicans may be hyping the hell out of this issue but that doesn’t mean there aren’t real problems that need solving. The same goes for crime and issues of public safety. I think Democrats in tough races have to address these issues and had better not avoid them.
Dismissing them as Republican exaggeration would be the worst of all courses, but I think most Democratic politicians these days are too savvy to do that.
piratedan
@wjca: I think she’s setting herself up to establish her bonafides on Border Security to earn the trust to finally hammer out policies that allow current immigrants pathways to citizenship and put an end to the fear-mongering by doing so.
Chet Murthy
@Geminid: I can understand Dems in border states addressing immigration. But I read so much about these fools in places like Iowa all exercised about immigration, and it sure seems like nothing Dems do can change their minds: the best that can be hoped-for is to reduce the salience of the issue in their minds. But sure, I can see why -in the border states- it makes sense to address it.
HumboldtBlue
Harris and Trump Rallies Cold Open – SNL
wjca
@piratedan:
That’s what I see her comments on the “bipartisan border bill” dooing. Setting up to push thru a better border bill. One which includes paths to citizenship, paths to legal status, etc. She doesn’t need details beyond that. In fact, she’s probably better off not getting locked into specifics at this point.
West of the Rockies
@MagdaInBlack:
Does grievance sell to anyone under 45? Young folks feel stressed, but hopefully some optimism about their futures. Trump’s whiny-ass pissing probably bores young people to tears.
West of the Rockies
@MagdaInBlack:
Does grievance sell to anyone under 45? Young folks feel stressed, but hopefully some optimism about their futures. Trump’s whiny-ass pissing probably bores young people to tears.
West of the Rockies
Vance must creep out anyone under 40.
trnc
@JustRuss:
Yes, there is. It’s the 5 Ws of Journalism – Who, what, when, where and why. It applies just as easy to Trump as to any other subject.
Mags, et al whiffed it for their own reasons, and it’s easy to blame a system that they won’t properly identify.
piratedan
@Geminid: very true. Gallego himself is proposing more border agents and techs, more scanning tech to handle the vehicle traffic inspection more quickly. Allow fast-tracking for certain goods (food) by trusted carriers. That’s pretty much the big thing that the GOP wanted to address the issue. The return is also to follow in the footsteps that Gabby Giffords asked for, scanning the stuff crossing into Mexico to grab the cash and the guns going back.
The idea of expanding the Immigration courts and places for asylum seekers to stay is to expedite a process that is taking years now, because of the lack of staff. Make that better, invest in it, make it honest instead of doing what DJT asked for, reject everyone, while also separating families.
Is it perfect, no, trying to force ALL asylum seekers to only use established ports of entry is laudable, but real life rarely resembles that. Plus the AZ border is complicated, we have a couple hundred miles of Indian reservation that has often has free access back and forth across the wilderness trails, known to the tribe as they do family migrations, we have the Yuma testing grounds where bombs go boom, we have nature wilderness areas and then a couple of border towns, state Park lands and private land owners who are perpetually pissed.
By reaching out to them and trying to do something to solve their concerns instead of this half assed wall idea, she is trying to disarm the GOP of its primary “national” issue. Hit them in their perceived strength.
Me, I’d just ask all of the folks here illegally to report in and then get them a temporary visa and pump them into the system TODAY, they’re already here, the vast majority of them are working hard and just want a better life. Let them have the opportunity.
wjca
FTFY
Including, by this point, Trump.
prostratedragon
@wjca: Think he might have figured out he’s the Trojan horse for the sofa king?
prostratedragon
Q. (from Josh Marshall:
Melancholy Jaques
@Geminid:
I agree and believe there ought to be set of policies that all Democrats could agree on.
wjca
@prostratedragon: If so, the question becomes: Is the Vance’s Secret Service detail loyal to their jobs, or to Trump? Because once Trump’s paranoia kicks in, it becomes a question of who can take out whom first.
Put another way, it’s Trump-world massive incompetence vs. “everything that Trump touches dies” — just literally this time.
NotMax
@HumboldtBlue
Pathetic. Put it out to pasture already.
NobodySpecial
@West of the Rockies: There are a lot of disaffected young people out there, mostly males of all races. They don’t talk much to politicians. Steve Bannon was able to mobilize quite a few of them in 2016, and ignoring the second bite at that particular apple isn’t wise.
Geoduck
@prostratedragon: I had the impression that Loomer got booted from the Shaitgibbon’s inner circle because of the bad press she was starting to generate.
Chet Murthy
@Geoduck: Somehow I don’t think you’re sufficiently sympathetiic to how heartbroken Ms. Loomer must be over being kicked out of her lover’s life. Truly, you’re a heartless, heartless clam.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Chet Murthy: Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence, to wit, Ms. Loomer’s possession of a heart.
prostratedragon
@Geoduck:
Alternative from that thread:
“She’s currently boiling a bunny.”
satby
This from DougJ is applicable to a lot of situations, even here on this little blog:
14/X) Because how they be facilitators of harassment and abuse? They give their pronouns and vote Democratic, so come on, you can’t be serious when you say they take the side of an abuser.
Read the entire thread and responses. Good stuff.
Jay
@prostratedragon:
And we are back to eating pets.
It is always projection.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Asheville’s water treatment plant has failed and won’t be back online for weeks.
Raoul Paste
Not happy that SNL portrayed Biden as doddering and inept throughout that entire clip. A brief joke, fine, but otherwise Biden is a great man who deserves respect
divF
@Raoul Paste: I’m not surprised. For a long time now, SNL has been cast from the same elite Kool Kidz mold as their NY hipster peers.
Ramalama
@Jay: was this before or after PM Singh ripped up the deal with the Liberal party?
Baud
@wjca:
Agreed. I hate when we suggest abandoning an issue. Republicans don’t do that. They talk about abortions. It’s gibberish, but they talk about it.
Baud
I’m so old I remember when the media mocked Hillary Clinton for the vast right wing conspiracy comment.
Now they’re going on about a left wing industry.
Jay
@Ramalama:
BC NDP is not affiliated with the Federal NDP. Different parties, same name. One is Federal, the other Provincial.
MP, not PM “Singh” “tore” up the agreement with the Federal Liberal Party, for no effect, just to get an arms length in the up coming election, witness the two Con’s “no confidence” motions that failed to push for an early election.
Baud
@Jay:
That’s so weird.
Baud
Media misses when the online left trained all their ire on Democrats.
Baud
JV Vance has a hard on. Via reddit
Tony Jay
Abandoning an entire lizard-brain wedge-issue to the MAGAts just means that their mentally skewed, ever skyrocketing race-war take on it becomes conventional wisdom, endlessly cargoed onto the shelves of the national idea-mall by a corporate media always on the lookout for a hot new ‘conservative’ trend to tout. After all, if the Republicans were wrong about the threat of millions of brown-skinned rape-bandits swarming over the border to take all the white jobs while living on welfare, the Democrats would say so, wouldn’t they?
All preemptive surrender guarantees is that when you inevitably have to fight over the issue in Congress, you’ll be fighting on MAGAt turf with both hands tied behind your back and duct tape over your mouth, and your own base won’t support you because the terminology you have to trade in is entirely MAGAt-friendly.
See: UK post-Brexit conversation for what that looks like.
Jay
@Baud:
Not really.
Provincial parties have always been “unaffiliated” with Federal Parties. It’s part of our system.
For a couple of decades in BC, the BC Liberals, were not “Liberals”, they were Con’s until wingnuttia caused them to implode.
In the US, it’s the same way, except that the “major brand” keeps State Parties, sort of online, except when they are not.
Baud
@Jay:
I don’t know if any situation in the US where there’s trademark confusion between the state and national parties.
I think the closest on MN, where the state Dem party is something like “Farmers and Labor” party.
Jay
@Baud:
Arizona?
Baud
@Jay:
No, the state parties seem to have the usual names.
https://azsos.gov/elections/about-elections/information-about-political-parties
snoey
@Baud: The MN party is the Democratic Farmer Labor party, or DFL. Name leftover from when the socialist Farmer Labor party merged with the Democratic party in 1944.
Baud
@snoey:
Thanks.
Jay
@Baud:
It’s not about names, it’s policies.
BellyCat
@Bill Arnold: DougJ had one helluva good crystal ball in 2013.
Baud
@Jay:
I’m talking about names.
Ramalama
@Jay: thanks for that. My wife who is a professional maker-upper doesn’t like to talk at length about politics, and my French is not at all up to par. Although we recently went to a dinner with international writers and of course we veered into US presidential talk since my presence does that sometimes. Most times. Then the wife took off with an incredibly nuanced argument in favor of Kamala. Which astonished me. But learning Canadian politics is not happening as fast as I’d like.
NorthLeft
I recently had a minor epiphany. It was about Trump’s infamous comment about him molesting women “because if you are a celebrity THEY let you do it.”
I had always thought that THEY meant the women, but it recently struck me (after watching A Promising Woman) that THEY are society in general. Particularly any organization responsible for reporting and taking legal action against the perpetrators. That is basically every organization that employs or oversees men and women and any media organization that should be covering it. That asshole Trump knows it and revels in the license it gives him.
My wife’s response? “Well, duh.”
Princess
@Ruckus: Bingo. It’s about the money. That’s the part DougJ misses. It’s about how much they get paid, how much they earn for their books, and what messages and tone the people who pay them want spread.
Baud
@NorthLeft:
They are doing it too. Remember Matt Lauer?
BellyCat
@Princess:
Baud
@Princess: at some level, the motive is not that relevant. The problem is that they’re doing it and many liberals and Democrats fall for it.
Meanwhile, Republicans voters are immune because they’re hooked on right wing media, which actually serves the Republican Party agenda.
NorthLeft
@Baud: Yes, exactly Trump’s point. THEY let you do it.
No legal issues. No negative publicity. No employment consequences. In general, no consequences at all. Although the accuser/victim goes through hell.
Baud
@NorthLeft:
Well, Lauer did eventually get canned. But I suspect most perpetrators get away with it most of the time.
Ramalama
@Jay: So BC NDP … is that a different party than the NDP in Quebec?
Jagmeet Singh appeared in Montreal at the same time or not much later than when he quit the deal with the (Federal?) Liberals. He was hyping up a local Montreal (South shore?) NDP candidate.
This candidate never spoke but stood there while Singh talked about how the Liberals had failed the country, and how the NDP was going to support local NDP candidates (like the silent dude who wore an Oliver Twist cap).
I do not get it.
mappy!
When you rail against the Judith Miller rag you play their game. You’re still placing focus on the rag. People will click through to see what the ruckus is all about. Clicks equal views. Views equal revenue. Revenue equals justification.
On the other hand when they’re complaining about you (the non clicker), they’re playing your game. They loose. You want them to play your game.
Don’t buy the book.
Jay
@Baud:
That’s the point.
BC Greens are a bunch of environmentalists and indigenous rights advocats,
Federal Greens are Putin anal rimmers.
Ramalama
@Jay: How do BC Cons compare with that cleaned up version of Steve Bannon … Poilievre?
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
I’m surprised it needs a ‘movement.’ It looks like Russia is now deeply invested in reclaiming its former empire, and the reason their people are supposed to have kids is so that they can grow up to be cannon fodder in Ukraine or some other former SSR or Warsaw Pact nation. Can’t imagine why anyone’s reluctant to have kids over there.
Ramalama
@Ramalama: You know what, self? It’s not Jay’s job to educate you on all of Canadian politics. Kthxbai
Shalimar
@Sure Lurkalot: A lot more likely that their pathetic redneck uncle will get drunk in their kitchen and then accidentally shoot them in the ass, but whatever.
Baud
@Jay:
In the US, I believe both state and federal Greens are Putin sockpuppets.
Jay
@Ramalama:
Like in the US, Federal and Provincial (State) parties, arn’t the same, at all,
Thus in BC, we had the ” BC Liberals”, for a decade, who wern’t “Liberals”, but instead a coelition of “child labour is gud” and 5G Vaccine Chip nutters.
If Sing came out for a local “Dipper”, it was Federal, not Provincial.
It’s the policies, not the nym.
Jay
@Ramalama:
No difference. More child porn.
Baud
@Jay:
The thing that was weird to me is not the fact that the name doesn’t match the policy. It’s that two parties with different policies have the same name.
BretH
@Geoduck: Gosh, if only there existed an institution dedicated to reporting why a lunatic who was cavorting with a presidential candidate and appeared to be advising him on debate strategy is suddenly persona non grata.
Jay
@Baud:
BC Greens are not. They hate Putin. Fed’s ball washers.
Baud
@BretH:
The media usually loves a good sex scandal. But they give a pass to Trump.
lowtechcyclist
@Jay:
Examples for the ‘like in the US’ part? Like a state Democratic party that is on the other side from the national party on a major issue, rather than merely soft-pedaling the national party’s position?
Jay
@Baud:
All you need in Canada for a political party NYM Federally or Provincially is that nobody else has it registered it, currently.
Thus, the Conservatives,
became the Progressive Conservatives,
an anon.
The NYM change frees one form the nuttery of the past,
Jay
@lowtechcyclist:
Arizona
Baud
@lowtechcyclist:
There’s more diversity of candidates at the state level. Southern Democrats will be more right wing than California Democrats. But I can’t remember an official state party position that conflicted with national positions on an important issue.
Baud
@Jay:
You realize that just saying “Arizona” isn’t very informative?
Baud
State Dem parties were a lot more important and diverse in the pre-Civil-Rights era.
lowtechcyclist
@Baud:
Tru dat. And it’s an excellent example of how far up his ass they are, because one of the reasons they usually like a good sex scandal is that there’s nothing partisan about a sex scandal, so they’re free from all their self-imposed constraints of how they’ve got to be ‘fair’ in their coverage.
Yet here they had a sex scandal on Trump, where they could have a field day at his expense without any legitimate complaint of bias, and they just let it pass.
And most of us here are old enough to remember when Bill Clinton’s fling with Monica Lewinsky dominated the news for an entire year.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
Maggie’s been covering TFFG for so long she’s become accustomed to and comfortable telling lies. E.g. where is this “liberal industry” of which she speaks…please name a few alternative left wing outlets or non-profit orgs dedicated to criticizing the NYT and MSM more generally. I know Amy Goodman and Democracy Now! are out there somewhere but they’ve been around forever. I don’t listen to them much but I think it’d be hard to make the case that Democracy Now! is just a liberal organization set up to criticize the MSM with no other mission.
Meanwhile we can all name about a half dozen conservative news outlets that spend lots of time attacking the NYT and MSM more generally as liberal hacks, starting with Fox News and Newsmax. That’s what an “industry” looks like. She just gets to say shit she feels like saying, whether there’s any veracity to it at all.
Furthermore, maybe the MSM “wasn’t built” to handle something like Trump coming along but they’ve had nigh on a decade to course correct. They’ve yet to do anything in that regard except navel gazing gee wiz what do we do about this conundrum think pieces. No organization or industry is “built” to handle everything that comes along. Manufacturers of harness and tack weren’t “built” to handle the automobile coming along. More recently and closer to home for the media…broadcast and cable networks weren’t built for the streaming era. But, they’re trying to adapt and move forward. What makes Mag Habs and her ilk so special that they can just sit back and not adapt because why? It’s just too hard! Whaaah! I have to alter my approach a little! That might require a little thought and work! That’s beyond the pale! I’d rather make up some BS excuses about a “left wing” industry and just keep doing what I’m doing. Lazy, stupid, and pathetic.
One thing about the fear they have of crossing conservatives – it’s not about fear for their personal safety, it’s fear that they’ll lose access to any and all conservative politicians. And what’ll they do without access? They can’t fill column without stenography unless they do some actual investigative journalism and that’s something that’s beneath them. The Jr. reporters do that because it’s hard work and so for those just cutting their teeth. I already did my time and now I just get to repeat what so and so said for a living, in print. I’m entitled to that!
Jay
@Baud:
It’s after 5 am here, I have had to deal with my wife’s cancer all day, and then some, trying to kill my brain so I can sleep,
So Arizona is for those willing to google, you know, “do their own research” to see how far apart the State Parties policies are different from the “Claimed” “Federal” ReThug Parties are.
The Rethugs are denying Project 2025, publicaly. AZ is all in and then some.
Geminid
@Baud: I have long had a theory that the US Green Party was a LaRoucheite operation. I got that impression from the Greens running for statewide office in Virginia back in the1990s. LaRouche’s organization was headquartered in Northern Virginia back then.*
I didn’t have any concrete evidence though, just vibes and the fact that they are a secretive, disciplined and power-hungry outfit. And when I look at Jill Stein I think, “Why not?”
* Now the LaRouchites seem to be based in the New York Metro area, centered on the “Schiller Institute.” There is an independent Senate candidate running in New York this year (I think) who is affiliated with the Institute. She ran against Schumer in the last cycle.
Jay
@Geminid:
https://vatniksoup.com/en/soups/306/
All you need to know.
TBone
Regarding today’s ‘Rescue the Republic’ event in D.C., Josh Marshall says
And, looking over the list of special guests, I wonder where is that meteor when we need it?
https://x.com/joshtpm/status/1840249234622152959
lowtechcyclist
@Jay:
OK, what about Arizona? Does the state party argue that the Grand Canyon ought to be privatized or something>
Jay
@TBone:
It’s hanging around the moon, waiting,……………………….
TBone
@Jay: 👍 it is a great resource
TBone
@Jay: 💜 good morning
Jay
@lowtechcyclist:
So, what part of “I have been dealing with my wife’s cancer all day” did you not understand?
Jay
@TBone:
Thank you.
TBone
@Jay: hugs and good intention to you
K-Mo
@BR: To a large degree, yeah. It’s a turnout election (aren’t they all?)
But also, to a significant extent it’s also a realignment election. Trump is peeling off a small but significant portion of disaffected black men, disgruntled union guys, etc, and Kamala is bringing over some non- crazy educated folks who grew up Republican. At the end of the day, these folks may be most persuaded by abortion rights, but they also need to see that the D approach to immigration and the economy is legit.
TBone
We’re all on Team Asteroid
Jay
@TBone:
It fucken hurts. It sucks.
I cannot take her pain away.
I cannot speed up the process.
All I can do is hold her hand.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’m looking at Trump’s claim that every single job created in the last two years went to an illegal immigrant. Do people really believe this nonsense? Surely they’re just pretending to.
Geminid
@TBone: I have always been on Team Asteroid. Good people in my experience.
lowtechcyclist
@Jay:
Lordy, are you hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s such a joke, dude. Everybody and her sister knows that their denial of P2025 is strictly performative, just like TFG’s denial is, and that they have absolutely no problem at all with the Arizona state party going all in on it. There’s no actual disagreement here. I can’t believe you aren’t fully aware of that.
Princess
@West of the Rockies: Tell that to the young white male incels. For that matter, tell that to the young white horseshoe left, especially the ones from comfortable backgrounds who expected to inherit the earth and haven’t. There’s grievance floating around in all age groups.
peter
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: +1. Haberman is a co-dependent in a relationship with a person with an abusive personality. She has normalized Trump and her insipid “reporting” is the result.
K-Mo
@Princess:
@Ruckus:
i also agree. The economic incentives for them to do what they are doing is a main driver. On top of that is their own self worth and identity. Maggie Haberman is terrific at doing exactly what she does, dammit. She works her @ss off cultivating sources and reporting things out in an engaging way that the median NYT reader can relate to. All the while chain smoking and being the badass rebel of her blue blood family. How dare anyone criticize that or expect her to see the big picture!
And third, a lot of these reporters don’t have the right skill set for the actual job they actually should be doing. There was a great piece in the New Rebublic yesterday that LGM picked up, essentially making this point.
https://newrepublic.com/post/185962/media-policy-illiteracy-2024-election
Princess
@Ramalama: There is no provincial NDP party in Quebec. The federal NDP runs candidates in Federal elections. The closest provincial analogue in terms of policy is Quebec Solidaire but it’s a sovreigntist party and the federal NDP isn’t.
TBone
@Jay: oh dear, we are all holding you both with our hearts. Hang tough dear friend.
Has anyone offered pain relief medication to her yet???
Feeling helpless is horrible. Please know that being there to hold her is helping even if it feels like not enough.
TBone
@Geminid: 💙
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Chet Murthy: In Iowa and other places far from the borders, “immigration” is shorthand for “The world keeps changing from what I knew growing up and that causes me distress.”
if the world changes, what will their social status be? What kind of leverage will they have with authorities they don’t know well and who aren’t familiar with them? (This is also a reason why small town people dislike cities—much harder to acquire the status to be treated well by the local Powers that Be.) Will the new people respect their boundaries and their status? It truly is not economic anxiety in most cases (unless the members of the immigrant underclass & their children dare to aspire to be more than toilers at the lowest of jobs and become competitors); its social anxiety.
lowtechcyclist
@Jay:
Maybe dealing with your wife’s cancer all day should cause you to say to yourself, “maybe I shouldn’t get into arguments I don’t have time for,” rather than spending time getting out over your skis here, and THEN using it as an excuse.
ETA: I have all the sympathy in the world for your wife, but every time I start feeling any for you, you manage to use it up in a big hurry.
Princess
@Baud: The difference at times is in the eye of the beholder. If you take it that National parties occupy a broad spectrum, each provincial party with the same name overlaps with some part of that spectrum. But they really are separate. A federal liberal cabinet member recently resigned his cabinet position to run for leader of the Quebec liberals. What surprised me was that when he didn’t also resign his seat, he moved to sit as an independent.
TBone
@lowtechcyclist: please reconsider.
When people are scared and angry and hurt, life is a horrible place to be.
Jay
@TBone:
Yeah, she has meds, but they are addictive, so,…….
We run a chart,
October, they will be trying the first procedure,
It all hangs on that,
MagdaInBlack
@lowtechcyclist: Um…..Don’t.
lowtechcyclist
@TBone:
No, his wife’s cancer doesn’t give him license to be a jerk.
thruppence
@lowtechcyclist: Really dude. If you lack all capacity for empathy go support Trump
TBone
@Jay: I know a thing or two about addictive pain meds. Trust them for her relief now – when she is able to put them aside, the withdrawal will be hard but extremely doable next to what she’s going through currently. She’ll know when she doesn’t need them and that withdrawal is temporary. Especially with you supporting her. Try not to put that cart before the horse, the pain relief is worth it for now.
3Sice
If this an industry, I’d like Cole to address our demands over pay and working condition.
Just bog stupid.
“We love dirty laundry, we can do the innuendo, we can dance and sing, when it’s said and done – we haven’t told you a thing, we all know that crap is king.”
narya
@Jay: sending every good thought toward you and your wife.
Jay
@TBone:
Thank you, but It’s T.
We have a write it all down system, because she would rather be in pain than addicted.
It’s way worse than dealing with me when I have just a cold.
And, it sucks. Sometimes, she can’t even just sit.
And there is the work bullshit,
Fuck.
Jay
@narya: Thank you
TBone
@Jay: Would she consider trying to find a patient support group, I don’t know if that would be helpful but I’m just trying to figure out anything that might help her (and you) deal with the emotional carnage inflicted by the system we must contend with.
PS tell her what I said about withdrawal being temporary – the stigma attached to opioid relief is harmful. She can overcome that hurdle when it presents.
Pain meds are a tool used to get where you’re going.
MagdaInBlack
@Jay: ❤️
Nelle
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio): I dislike defending Iowa (I’ve lived here for five years, drawn by grandchildren), but one of the better surprises is the long tradition, begun in the late 70s by Republican governor Robert Ray, is welcoming of refugees and immigrants. Not universal, of course, but sturdy and widespread. I thought I was moving into a small whitebread neighborhood and yes, it is predominantly white. But out of approximately 140 houses in the neighborhood, there are about 12 from Bosnia, 3 from Vietnam, 1 from India, I from Kenya, I from India, I from Mexico, that I’m aware of. I’m the D GOTV person and across my street, are 11 D households and 3 Rs. We’re trying. Harris has climbed 14 points against Trump over where Biden was, and is only 4 points behind. One of my R neighbors, a servant and conservative Christian, is deeply upset by the TrumpiN message on immigrants. “The Bible,” she tells me, “says we are to welcome the stranger, to give them comfort and safety.”
Starfish
@Raoul Paste: I didn’t enjoy their representation of Walz because they made him a little overly loud and weird. Bowen Yang as J. D. Vance was an interesting choice. He is more likable and relatable than Vance.
Starfish
@Baud: Their discussion of abortion is contradictory jibberish. Their discussion of climate change is “a book report on a book I did not read” jibberish.
Starfish
@Baud: I am excited about this left wing industry. With the word industry there, I am assuming we are getting paid. When can I be expecting the check from George Soros? Will it be enough for a down payment on one of these reasonably affordable houses with these reasonably low interest rates.
SFAW
@Starfish:
Kind of a low bar. Dennis Miller is more likable and relatable than Vance. Hell, pond scum is more likable and relatable than Vance.
Baud
@Nelle:
That’s nice, but conservatives have been sacrificing their values for Trump for 9 years. I would love it if Iowa came back into the fold.
Baud
@Starfish:
We should unionize.
SFAW
@Baud:
What about “O-o-o-o-o-o-o-klahoma!”
SFAW
@Baud:
There’s probably a debate to be had vis-a-vis whether they’re values, or just window dressing. Are they really “values” if you drop them in your quest to gain power/hurt Demoncraps?
Jay
@TBone:
@MagdaInBlack:
Thank you,
We have good medical support through the system, 3 GP’s and 11 experts on the first surgery,
Psyck as well.
I could go on more, but for now, I wont.
RAM
Haberman insists the “systems” “were not built to deal with somebody who says things that are not true as often as he [Trump] does.” Which, of course, is a flat-out lie. The “systems,” AKA journalism, was specifically designed to deal with people like Trump. But journalism relies on journalists telling the truth about those individuals and groups they cover. For whatever reasons, the MSM has decided not to tell the truth about Trump and thereby to promote him and his views. It’s not the “systems'” fault; it’s journalists who’ve decided to continually lie by both omission and commission about the person who is very much an existential danger to the nation.
SFAW
@RAM:
Is it the journalists? Or the editors/publishers? Pinch and Pinche/Putz Sulzberger have made it clear that they hate most/all Dems, and (I assume, perhaps incorrectly) they — aided and abetted by the FTFTFNYT editor(s) — determine(d) what was reported, and how it was reported.
Msb
@Jay: that must hurt so much. Good for you for being there, as hard as it is.
Jay
@Msb:
Thank you.
TBone
@Jay: glad to hear that support is in place, and please know that venting here anytime you need to will be met with as much consolation as I can offer.
MagdaInBlack
@TBone: @Jay: We all need to have a place we can safely take off our armor ❤️
Another Scott
J and I had lunch with a retired former colleague and his wife at their home yesterday. Brilliant guy, personable, funny. So dedicated to his work that he continued it for 6 years as a volunteer after he retired, but the bureaucratic hurdles finally got to be too much. His wife has had some inner ear issues for decades that caused her to take early disability. They’re both in their 70s and doing well, considering everything.
We talked about the problems at our workplace for a while, other folks who retired (or died early), then started talking politics.
It was kinda eye-opening to me.
They’re both reasonably well informed, and have a WaPo subscription. He mentioned a George Will OpEd favorably. He also mentioned that he was convinced that Turnp has a serious mental illness, but he is furious that Democrats are for “open borders”. She said that it’s important for candidates to be relentlessly questioned about their proposed policies and forced to answer what they will actually do in office. She also said that candidates should be more like Mitt Rmoney and Liz Cheney and be willing to speak out against their party.
I knew normies were out there, but I didn’t think that they were among them. :-/
J’s been stuck in a cynical frame of mind (pox on both their houses, etc.) for quite a while (worse since Bernie ran). She always ends up voting for the good people, but she’s really pissed off that things like the national minimum wage haven’t changed in 15+ years (2009, under Obama) – mostly economic things.
There was lots of discussion about Citizens United and how even congressional candidates need to raise about $2k a day every day to run for office (more for other races, of course)…
I let everyone vent and took it all in.
I considered bringing up the importance of easier access to voting, the fact that the GQP is explicitly standing in the way of progress we want, that Hillary had all kinds of proposals and policies for the heartland, that (like everyone) lots of people in the heartland don’t like change and want things to be the way they were when the factory was running at full clip and the mines were hiring and they get pissed off when their kids go off to school and don’t come back because there’s no opportunities in their dying communities that fight change, that Turnp killed the border bill because he thinks it’s better for him and the GQP was more than happy that he did so (and even with that Biden is doing a better job there), and all the rest. And how incremental progress is the only progress that lasts and how we have to keep fighting for it every day.
But I was more interested in hearing what they had to say.
We live in thousands or millions of different worlds. Figuring out ways to have a majority of us mostly see enough things the same way to make incremental progress is a terribly tough job. Props to folks like Biden and Harris and Walz and Schumer and Jeffries and all the rest who devote their lives to trying to do so.
Forward!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty
@BR: One of Trump’s complaints was that Fox ran Kamala’s border speech.
JAFD
@Jay: Sending good luck, healing energy, sympathy.
H
@Jay: I have been spending a lot less time at Balloon Juice recently. (Unfortunately not because I’m more productive but because i’ve developed a Nitter addiction.) So while I was aware of her diagnosis, i missed staging information and what’s going on. I just want to extend sympathies since I have been through a similar situation.
K-Mo
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: You’re on it. Especially about blaming the system. It’s important to distinguish between systematic and idiosyncratic issues, but you don’t get a free pass from either.
It’s like, “My vehicle (a Hummer) gets lousy mileage and is a drain on the environment, but it’s my only car and I have to take the kids to school so whatchagonnado?”
cain
@Chet Murthy:
I’ve always found that a lot of it is based on our foreign policy. We change that and help make those countries more stable.
We should be doing a lot more on our end to prevent arms from crossing into Mexico. Indirectly arming cartels is not great who go on and sell it to violent militant groups further south.
Ruckus
@dmsilev:
It’s what is happening right here, right now.
The public is giving them feedback that they cannot control.
In historical terms this is basically unprecedented. The only feedback they used to get was letters to the editor and they got to print them or throw them away. Their choice.
Now there exists an open forum, such as what we are doing right here, right now. And of course it’s not just BJ, it is the entire internet, that basically goes back what for all intents – 20-25 yrs. A free press that could print or not print letters to the editor as they wished. Any and all complaints or protests stopped at their door.
And that is gone.
The public always had a voice but the volume of that voice was not the choice of the public. Now the public has a voice. And that voice has a wider, not in their control audience than their audience.
The free press exists freer than it did 25 years ago. We are proving that right here, right now.
cain
@prostratedragon:
I found bizarre that they never covered Laura Loomer carrying on with Trump while his wife is sitting in New York penthouse.
Just wild. Usually they love that salacious stuff. It brings eyeballs.
But yeah crickets. They must be afraid.
Same thing with the two assassination attempts. Hardly anything because the perps were all former Trump supporters. Just weird.
If they were Democrats.. we would all be asked to condemn everything democratic.
cain
@Baud: they are running out of soldiers from the far east part of Russia.
cain
@Princess:
I bet that all the stuff that they are not reporting on eg Loomer, assassination stuff are all book material they are saving up for.
cain
@lowtechcyclist:
You still need to afford to have kids. If they all die of starvation or abuse or some other thing you are not going to get your army.
wjca
Let’s face it, Trump is more likeable and relatable than Vance. That’s why he’s the figurehead on the ticket. The bar really is that low.
cain
@Jay: sorry man.. can’t imagine what both of you are going through.
cain
@Jay: if cannabis is legal in your state perhaps you can try that in addition to the meds ? CBD/THC I’ve heard works for cancer although maybe not other kinds of pain.
Ruckus
@wjca:
The bar really is that low.
I believe this should be – Their bar really is that low.
They really do not have any candidate that meets their desires and is electable by the entire nation. Because their desires is to own the government and thereby the country.
I used own rather than control on purpose.
This is not a new phenomenon, it is just now out in the open and for everyone to see. They want a government that reflects their views and no one else’s. And if that desire is out in the open, they will likely never get it.
It’s out in the open and now it’s up to the rest of us to make sure they get the government that we all deserve, not the one that controls everything and every one to a degree that would make Vlad delioursly happy.
TBone
@cain: just like General McChrystal and former NatSec McMaster 🤬
Ramalama
@Princess: I am friends with friends of Françoise David (Québec solidaire), but am still having a tough time wrapping my head round the different parties.
Looking for tv producers to make an Ottawa-based show similar to West Wing. That would do it. Open plea to Dan Levy.
SFAW
@wjca:
I had considered substituting TCFFG, but he’s at least as evil as Vance — even if he has more charisma — and didn’t want to go there. Miller is a fucking jerk, but I don’t necessarily see him as evil, just nuts/stupid.
SFAW
@Jay:
Cancer sucks. I am hoping for your wife’s return to good health, and the best outcome for your wife and you.
Juju
@lowtechcyclist: Perhaps being a jerk is a two way street in this case.
Ramalama
@Jay: Does your wife enjoy books on tape / audible stuff? If so has she read David Sedaris? He’s American’s funniest writer (humble opinion my own). Might help to alleviate her iron grip on the pain. Or might not.
Lots of Canadians (the ones in my car back when I commuted to/from Boston and Montreal) had not heard of him. But when I played Sedaris on the rides, big hit.
Here’s part 1 of 3 in his story Repeat After Me. Parts 2 & 3 are not far from that link on YouTube.
Kayla Rudbek
@Baud: growing up in Minneapolis, it was DFL (Democratic-Farmer-Labor) and IR (Independent Republican) parties
Ruckus
@TBone:
I’m not telling my health story for attention, only for an example of how pain can be a large part of normal life. It has been for mine for many decades. And I’ve known a number of people that my story massively pales to when compared.
Please no condolences, my life is fine, it works good and I’ve got a lot of retirement years ahead of me.
But as someone who has been through 2 types of cancer, has a brain aneurysm and migraines, and has been hit literally head on by a pickup truck going the opposite direction (and not while in a car and fortunately the truck was not going fast at all but it was night) pain is a well known enemy. I take a prescription migraine mitigation/pain killer when needed and have been for over 20 years – when it was released. Before that no effective medications existed for migraine suffers.
Kayla Rudbek
@Jay: I’m sorry to hear that and I hope that her doctors can help. And fuck cancer.