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You are here: Home / Open Threads / VP Debate Second Thread

VP Debate Second Thread

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I’m watching the debate and I have to say that the fucking kumbaya is absolutely not good for Harris/Walz.

Walz is doing a good job in general.  Vance is a slick lying piece of shit, and finding areas of agreement with a lying piece of shit makes common cause with a lying piece of shit.

For example, “Gov Walz and I think something needs to be done about gun violence.”  No you don’t.  You want to deflect and lie.

Reader Interactions

311Comments

  3. 3.

    Jeffro

    Ha – I just left a comment at the end of the last thread about how all this is going that’s very similar to what MM led off with.  JD is sliiiiiiiick and Walz is not going to go meta here or call JD out for being a liar’s liar, so…we’re just wasting everyone’s time here.

  6. 6.

    3Sice

    I’m pretty sure America has tuned out.

    Checked in – yep, that guy fucked a couch.. – turned it off.

  9. 9.

    Leto

    We don’t want to blame immigrants, but here I go blaming immigrants… This is what happens when I listen again.

  14. 14.

    lamh47

    @keithboykin

    My impression so far is that JD Vance comes across as very smug, robotic, and scripted, and dodges and lies about his disagreements with Trump. Tim Walz is more natural and human and is doing a good job of swatting down Vance’s lies and talking about Kamala Harris’s policies.

  15. 15.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Leto:

    We don’t want to blame immigrants, but here I go blaming immigrants… This is what happens when I listen again. 

    YUP!

  16. 16.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    I wonder how much power Vance thinks Dan Quayle had as Vice President.  What a fucking douche bag.

  17. 17.

    lamh47

    I think this is def more true than not…also too mostly men like ole boy saying Vance is doing better…smh

    @Bakari_Sellers

    The funny thing about this debate is ppl want Walz to slap Vance around BUT that’s not who he is….he politely calls him a liar and moves on. Walz is truly a nice guy.

  18. 18.

    RaflW

    Mass deportation is not housing policy. Vance is just saying “elbow room” without the obvious German accent.

  26. 26.

    dmsilev

    Is OurMedia Learning? WaPo: Trump mixes up words, swerves among subjects in off-topic speech

    Trump read from a binder containing a prepared speech on the subject, and he switched abruptly between the text and a jumble of other topics.

    “We can be nice and we can be politically incorrect, but the only thing they’re going to do there is cheat on elections, and we just can’t let this happen,” he said at one point. Without warning, he continued: “The city of Milwaukee is the home of first and oldest choice program.”
    He spoke of “a million Rambos.” “Turnarounds” and “gotaways” and “dead-head spending.” He mixed up Iran with North Korea and strained to pronounce United Arab Emirates. He marveled at Hurricane Helene coming so late in the storm season, which typically runs through November. He falsely claimed government agencies can’t name the U.S. population, and he compared the conflict between Israel and Iran to “two kids fighting in the schoolyard.”

    But Tuesday’s event, in front of almost entirely reporters, was especially scattered and hard to follow.

    In case you need a break from Vance’s lies.

  27. 27.

    @mistermix.bsky.social

    What I meant by kumbaya was the constant search for common ground by Walz. Vance just exploits that.

  29. 29.

    Betty

    His family got private health insurance under Trump’s leadership? Malarkey. I am sure it was ACA coverage that Trump tried to eliminate.

  30. 30.

    Darkrose

    Jacking the Divan used to live in the Bay Area. He knows damn well that immigrants are not why you pretty much have to be a millionaire to afford even a 1-bedroom condo in SF. Lying liar.

  31. 31.

    WaterGirl

    I think Vance is winning this with his slick talk ad his “Oh, i agree with Walz” bullshit.

    Totally agree with mistermix that the real collegiality Walz is trying to show in response to the fake bullshit collegiality of Voce IS NOT HELPING.

    I don’t think I can watch anymore.

  32. 32.

    Splitting Image

    @Old Dan and Little Ann:

    I wonder how much power Vance thinks Dan Quayle had as Vice President. What a fucking douche bag.

    I guarantee you that Vance cares less about Dan Quayle than he does about John Tyler. Tyler took office on Day One because the guy who was at the top of the ticket fell out of a window or cut his head off while shaving or something.

  40. 40.

    Betty

    Walz ding a good job of showing Vance’s misleading comments on health care. But Vance continues to lie.

  43. 43.

    zhena gogolia

    Has Vance said they’re going to send our boys to Ukraine yet? He seems to be trotting out every other conspiracy theory.

  46. 46.

    lamh47

    Was saying It’s actually kinda amazing to me the differing opinions on how Walz is doing on my socials…Vance wins I guess because as long a liar is good at it, people let them slide…but IDK, I think he’s coming off as swarmy.

    It’s also interesting to me to see what folks expected of Walz.  He’s always come off as a nice guy.  He’s think as been exactly what he’s giving today.

    Also, not for nothing, but no one really cares about the VP debate…the folks who do weren’t gonna be for Harris/Walz anyway, the folks who don’t already are for Harris/Walz.  All Walz needs to do was not stumble the bag…boring is certainly better than what ever it was Chump did for the POTUS debate.

  57. 57.

    Kay

    I think Walz did fine. Political media will swoon over Vance but they’re Trumps base anyway.Vance has no emotional range – he doesn’t connect. The right words are there but it’s just…dead. 

    I think normies will like Walz, and the campaign probably intended to pitch it to normies.

  58. 58.

    Chet Murthy

    @SatanicPanic: It’s important, but I fear that the kind of voter who still hasn’t made up their mind is …. not going to have the (two) neurons to rub together, to understand that isolationism doesn’t work.

  59. 59.

    Jeffro

    Yes, JD Vance…what American families lack for in terms of child care is OPTIONS…thank you for describing the problem.  What, sir, is your solution?

    (crickets)

  61. 61.

    Another Scott

    southpaw

    ‪@nycsouthpaw.bsky.social‬

    Follow

    This is one that I genuinely think will be printed in history books one day to show how insane American media culture became. CBS News presenting ethnic cleansing as a housing policy to be compared with home construction tax incentives.

    [ image ]

    October 1, 2024 at 10:19 PM

    Both sides!!11ONE

    [ groucho-roll-eyes.gif ]

    Grr…,
    Scott.

  63. 63.

    JoyceH

    What I found baffling was Vance claiming that we could use federally owned land to build housing. Uh.  How much unused federally owned land is there actually available where people live and where the jobs are? I don’t think housing in a national forest is going to be very practical.

  69. 69.

    3Sice

    Trump is refusing to do the 60 Minutes interview. Something, something, fact checking, but it is clear he can no longer keep it together for a sit down.

  73. 73.

    Joy in FL

    It’s hard to debate with a person who is untethered from feeling an obligation to be truthful.

    I think Vance was told to use “dad energy” and express empathy, because his handlers knew that is how Tim Walz is. Vance is performing that well.  It’s just so hard to interact effectively with him because he will say anything. He takes approaches that have some slender thing in common with what Gov Walz is likely to agree with. That strikes me as a play for undecided voters, or people who weren’t going to vote, but maybe Vance can coax them to vote for the security and order that his running mate talks about.

    I see Vance’s performance as subtle and very nefarious. We are not hearing the Vance who speaks frankly on right-wing venues. We are hearing a reasonable candidate. GOP need that as Trump increasingly shows himself to be dangerous for our democracy.

  74. 74.

    Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGa)

    If you’re not a political junkie, Vance is probably looking reasonable, and you won’t realize how much he’s lying through his teeth.

    Walz sounds nice and earnest, but to the point of almost whining. There’s not as much of the no-bullshit “mind your own damn business” coach as I was hoping to see.

    And the J6 part now is probably going to make my head explode. 

  75. 75.

    Betty

    Asked about his stated position on not certifying the election, Vance just changes the subject! More disrespect for those female moderators.

  76. 76.

    Jeffro

    Lie after lie from this Stillson clone.  Up is down, down is up, trump was calling for peaceful protest on J6, and the REAL threat to democracy is…Kamala Harris.

  77. 77.

    Captain C

    @dmsilev: “Trump Eloquently Covers a Multitude of Important Issues”. — The FTFNYT with the article by Maga Habs and Bret Stephens

  84. 84.

    lamh47

    @justinfleece

    Walz remains likable. Vance remains smarmy. Little will change. Getting fact checked will be the part that people will be talking about tomorrow.

    Yup…even folks like Megyn Kelly are raging about “fact checking”

  86. 86.

    schrodingers_cat

    It is hard for me to listen to this farce. Thanks for nothing, Republican voters and toady media. The only reason that these 2 liars are competitive is because they represent a majority of white people.

  88. 88.

    Paul W.

    @WaterGirl: I think Vance is massively losing because he’s not really answered or explained any Trump positions with simple clarity. But huge criticism of from me on Walz with the “Vance and I agree” because they don’t even on this filtered debate stage.

    other than that Walz is coming across with a great list of things his state has done and real problems solved and Vance is talking 2.5 minutes at a time about nonsense.

  95. 95.

    Chris

    @Joy in FL:

    It’s just so hard to interact effectively with him because he will say anything.

    I will say once again that this is why I stopped talking politics with Republicans close to fifteen years ago.  Everything they say is a lie.  Often enough they don’t even mean it, but they live in an environment that’s so full of bullshit that pretty much everything they’ve heard is a lie, and they just regurgitate it.  There’s just no fucking point.  You literally have to fact-check ten different things in each sentence that comes out of their mouth.  It’s talking to a conspiracy theorist.

    Which, come to think of it, probably explains why I increasingly have no tolerance at all for the bullshit institution that is presidential debates.

  96. 96.

    tobie

    I tuned out after the trade discussion, which was early in the debate. Walz couldn’t bring himself to say forcefully that manufacturing is going great guns thanks to the CHIPS Act and Inflation Reduction Act, and that Biden/Harris reversed the trade deficit that Trump built. Why is it so hard to tout Biden’s achievements in reviving manufacturing? Harris also missed this opportunity in her debate–it was the first question–so I wonder if the campaign is trying to distance Harris/Walz from Biden’s economic record. If so, it’s a dumb strategy IMO.

  99. 99.

    Joy in FL

    Vance is lying very persuasively about censorship.

    I like how Tim Walz is really clear, elequent too, about what Jan 6 was about.

  100. 100.

    Old Dan and Little Ann

    Never mind January 6th.  January 20th made it all better.  Let’s look towards the future.

  101. 101.

    kissel

    @SatanicPanic: the irony is that Dems actually have support of lifelong Republican leaders. RFK Jr and Tulsi Gabbard were fringe Democrats and are probably foreign agents.

  103. 103.

    Redshift

    @JoyceH:

    What I found baffling was Vance claiming that we could use federally owned land to build housing.

    It’s part of the weirdo conservative tic that Those People shouldn’t come here because there’s “no room.” It’s always been dumb because the country is huge and there’s never been a lack of overall space, but the mouth-breathers seem to eat it up.

  104. 104.

    lamh47

    @Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGa): counterpoint, Vance looked like a condescendly jackass, while Tim coming off as the nice guy he’s been claiming to be.

    Again, all Walz has to do is NOT stumble and not come off as unlikeable…ask yourself this, is Vance coming off as “likeable” or even “personable”

  113. 113.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lamh47: I am going to take a flyer and guess that most women’s hands move instinctively to cover their drinks when Vance speaks.

  115. 115.

    BR

    Oh, is there a debate happening right now? :)

    Glad I can read your comments, because there’s no way I can stand to watch Vance deliver smug lies for 90 minutes while Walz is Walz.

  116. 116.

    caphilldcne

    Honest coverage tomorrow should say that Vance has disqualified himself. In fact I believe Vance has specifically betrayed his oath of office. He should resign from the Senate.

  117. 117.

    lamh47

    @keithboykin

    Wow! The most important moment of the debate tonight was JD Vance refusing to admit that Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. Four years after the election, and Trump’s team still won’t admit they lost. That’s disqualifying.

  118. 118.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Redshift: Republicans like to suddenly flip into a Population Bomb argument out of 1968 about America’s finite carrying capacity when they want to keep immigrants out. They don’t wax environmentalist in any other context, they’re hyper-natalist about the need to pump out more babies, but suddenly they become very worried about the US becoming a crowded hellhole because its population increased by 1% from immigration. It’s transparently dishonest.

  120. 120.

    TEL

    @lamh47: Thank you for all of your links and posts. I also think Walz is targeting the gettable voters by showing his actual personality and values, while Vance is the used car salesman who will say anything to try to get the sale. The idea that Walz was going to annihilate Vance with a smile wasn’t realistic – he’s not the happy warrior that Kamala is.

  122. 122.

    cain

    @Kay: I think that’s the impression I got.

    But us political folks want to see blood. I didn’t watch the debate. I usually head over here and Senor Tom Nichols twitter feed.

    Tom’s not that impressed and felt there was a lot of missed opportunities.

  126. 126.

    patrick II

    @JoyceH:

    Last night on Rachel she had a tape of Vance proposing the government take over college campuses because they such attractive properties and colleges are part of the evil empire brainwashing our young ones with liberal ideals.

  132. 132.

    Soprano2

    I wish someone had asked Vance what the hell is his problem with women who don’t have children.

  134. 134.

    lamh47

    @BretH: Except to the steadfast he will never be considered a liar so doesn’t matter.

    I don’t beleive for one minute there are any undecided at this point…so the game is to not stumble and let Chump/Vance implode on their own.

  135. 135.

    Math Guy

    Tomorrow, expect republicans to gripe about Vance being fact-checked and having his mic muted.

  138. 138.

    hrprogressive

    I understand why people were upset about Biden’s performance but Walz didn’t do anything nearly that poorly.

    Vance is a slimy used-car salesman who agreed with Walz a lot, said stuff anathema to MAGA, failed to answer questions directly, talked over the two moderators to the point he got their mics cut, he said “open borders” and “illegal immigrants” like they were magic words, and then at the end, very clearly said misinformation needed to be protected, and lied his ass off about January 6th.

    Nobody who wasn’t already for Trump/Vance is voting for them because of this performance.

    Nobody who wasn’t already leaning or going to vote for Harris/Walz isn’t going to move *away* from them because of this.

    Walz undersold his performance ahead of time as a “bad debater”, but I think he did just fine.

    He didn’t bomb anything.

    Maddow just indicated “One candidate was slicker, and the other candidate won” and that Walz won on substance.

    So…

    Yeah.

    As a guy who’s been mad since the Obama Years that the Democratic Party wasn’t much more forceful about how fucking awful the GOP has been and wished they would say so in blunt, “regular American People” would understand

    I am not upset by Coach Walz’s performance, and I’m shocked anyone would be.

  140. 140.

    lamh47

    As I thought before and after, ultimately, the VP debate doesnt’ matter. I dont’ think it matters tho. I think Walz just needed to not stumble or be a disaster like Palin was or Pence was or Ryan was. Kamala is the attack dog, she doesn’t need Tim to be.

    I don’t think there are any true undecided at this point…barring a major stumble, it’s about letting Chump/Vance implode and GOTV for Harris/Walz despite the voter suppression efforts.

  141. 141.

    Jackie

    @3Sice: TIFG also walked off mid interview on 60 Minutes in 2016. Or 2020. Regardless, he didn’t like or couldn’t answer the question.

    If Harris gets an hour to promote her agenda on national TV on a 60 Minutes prime special and the 🍑🐓💩refuses? A plus for Harris!

  143. 143.

    Kay

    @cain:

    Right. Very partisan Dems will be disappointed. They wanted Walz to go after him.
    But normies really do hate the fighting and as much as we hate it, elections are decided by people who aren’t that engaged and dislike or avoid conflict.

  145. 145.

    Joy in FL

    I think Vance was the anti-Trump tonight. He appeared friendly. He seemed to find common ground. He didn’t whine constantly and make every question about himself and how unfairly he has been treated. His wife looked like she actually likes him, and they held hands as they left the stage.

    Vance’s performance was effective, I thought, for what he was supposed to do. I think his handlers are pretty pleased about this debate performance.

    I thought that Tim Walz’s fire finally showed near the end in the segment about Jan 6 and the election lies.  I liked what I saw and felt there.

  149. 149.

    PsiFighter37

    @TEL: That said, from the few clips I bothered watching, Walz was pretty shaky, My takeaway is that the legacy Biden campaign folks need to get dumped once the election is over, stat.

  153. 153.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @PsiFighter37: Yep, they prepped him the way they did Joe – substance, facts, explanations – great way to not win (note I’m not using “lose”) a TV debate. I don’t buy the “well, Walz was just being Walz” explanation for the tepid performance. He was much more pointed in the debate with the physician opponent he roasted for the gubernatorial debate. You could look it up! (on YT or the MediasTouch).

  154. 154.

    lamh47

    IDK, do I think Walz was a resounding “fuq yeah coach”…maybe not, butTrue, but Walz never came off as unlikeable or a liar or swarmy…and no real quips or stumbles that will likely go viral. So in my mind, a boring VP debate is better than an excitingly bad POTUS debate.

  156. 156.

    Ishiyama

    This turned out to be a relatively conventional debate. Neither candidate got hot under the collar; Vance’s smarmy indignation was phony, as was his use of cherry picked facts to support his arguments. Tim Walz didn’t really have an effective counter to that tactic, but he was able to stick to his own lines, and scored some points of his own. But when J.D. kept hypocritically crying crocodile tears about the need for solutions to people’s real life problems, Tim kept agreeing with his points and talking about having common ground. I’m not sure how that played for the audience, but at the end of the debate, Tim & J.D. and their wives exchanged cordialities, expressing that there were no hard feelings.

  157. 157.

    Grover Gardner

    Walz is a lousy debater.  Period.  Vance was smooth and reasonable-sounding.  Don’t think Trump will be pleased with his constant “We could do better” but it may appeal to undecided voters.  Overall I don’t think it will move any needles.

  158. 158.

    Harrison Wesley

    So those of us who didn’t watch this didn’t miss doodly-squat all.  What a surprise.  Grampaw grampawed; couch boy…fabricated (would that be appropriate?).

  161. 161.

    caphilldcne

    @PsiFighter37: watched the whole thing.  Walz was actually quite good. The only thing I thought he was poorly prepared on was his answer about his China visits. He was nervous early and got stronger and stronger. His health care answer was a knockout. The Jan 6th answer was clear and forceful.

  163. 163.

    JiveTurkin

    If I was completely non-partisan I would have to say that Vance won on style, but I know enough that much of what he said was half-truths or outright lies.  But low info voters would probably go for Vance.

  165. 165.

    stacib

    @lamh47: And, considering Walz is trying to pull the “undecided” voters, maybe his way is much better than my way.  :-)  I wanted – well, let’s just say I would have been more combative.  After thinking about it, the collegiate stuff should go over big with that crowd.  My concern is they won’t realize how many lies Vance told because he said his shit so confidently.

  166. 166.

    Regine Touchon

    @Joy in FL: I think he schooled him on many issues, but his heartfelt and honest comments about January 6th sang for me. I just jumped in here and see a lot of negativity about Walz. I humbly disagree.

  169. 169.

    JiveTurkin

    More than ever I think there have to be some ads about Trump’s character.  IMO people on the fence have to be reminded that Trump is a rapist and a felon.  I’d like to see an ad where his recent comments about how he is a protector of women are played, but interrupted repeatedly with comments from one of the women who are on record accusing him of sexual assault.

  171. 171.

    Mingobat (f/k/a KareninGa)

    @lamh47: Good. When I saw that I felt a lot better — it was exactly the substance from Walz to overpower Vance’s carefully prepped style.

  172. 172.

    BR

    Since I didn’t watch it, going off of your summaries it sounds almost exactly as expected. Vance gish galloped like a slick car salesman and Walz was Coach Walz, and pundits like the former and voters will be split.

  173. 173.

    trnc

    @stacib: I sometimes felt like Tim was a little too deferential, but I think it also built up to a nice shellacking of JV on health care, child care and especially Jan 6.

  175. 175.

    stacib

    @PsiFighter37: I think he knew how much weight was on him to perform well, and he was visibly nervous.  Again, I wish he had been more combative, but that’s just me.  He may have looked totally phony if that’s not a part of his personality.  He did fine though, and I’ll spend most of tomorrow defending him to the fence sitters in my life.

  176. 176.

    Trivia Man

    Shout out to tim for polite clock management. Always finished  a few seconds before time expired and closed his mouth after a complete and coherent final sentence. Every time.

    Went over a few times today n the back and firth rebuttals but overall most restrained i think I’ve ever seen this n these debates. Substance over bluster.

  178. 178.

    lamh47

    @JamesFallows

    Three-line wrap-up: 1) This won’t change the results. I mean, if Harris’s demolition of Trump didn’t, no debate will. 2) Vance much more at-home seeming in real time. And “beating expectations” about sounding “normal.” 3) But Vance created many more time-bomb clips that will cause him follow-up problems: Denying he supported nationwide abortion ban; refusing to answer election-denial question; no comeback for “where is Mike Pence”; man-splaining over the (female) moderators; saying Trump saved ACA, etc. See point #1.
    https://x.com/JamesFallows/status/1841314391662223659

    More concise than my wrap up would be…LOL

  181. 181.

    trnc

    @mrmoshpotato:

    @Leto:

    We don’t want to blame immigrants, but here I go blaming immigrants… This is what happens when I listen again.

    YUP!

    I know that repetition can be effective to drive a point home, even if it’s a lie, but I think trying to make immigration the whipping boy for every single problem looks pretty weak.

  183. 183.

    Jeffro

    @Joy in FL: agree 110% with all of this

    There are only a couple of ways to handle a soulless liar like JD Vance, and I’m not going to jump on Walz for doing his best/only partially getting there

  185. 185.

    JiveTurkin

    @schrodingers_cat: Great point.  The white people of Alabama would have easily elected Roy Moore as their senator.  The fact that he trolled the malls for certain people didn’t bother them in the least.  And the white people of Louisiana would have elected a klan leader as their governor back in the day.  Trump will easily win the white vote.  Hopefully not enough to overcome the minority vote advantage for Harris.

  187. 187.

    Poe Larity

    I don’t think VP debates have mattered since Palin, but democrats seem to be perturbed Vance didn’t disassemble on stage.

    Perhaps they’ve been watching too many couch tiktoks and forwarding too many echo chamber tweets. Vance isn’t Trump. Remember 2016. It will never be what you think, it’s what those “moderates” think.

  188. 188.

    206inKY

    Vance is not winning over anyone with his slimy mock trial bullshit. Walz did great hammering home his Minnesota record and Harris’s platform. Not worried in the slightest. I think people just have trauma from Biden’s debate.

  191. 191.

    RandomMonster

    I watched it all. Walz came across as genuine and did just fine as a debater. I would say Vance succeeded in not looking like a spittle-flecked racist nutjob, but I suspect viewers will see him as just saying whatever is politically expedient, AKA, lying.

  193. 193.

    David 🐝KHive🐝 Koch

    Tonight was a complete disaster.  Its over.  Atlanta was 0 for 5 with runners in scoring position.  Padres look invincible.

  194. 194.

    SteverinoCT

    MSNBC: Joy Reid was sooooo close to “tire rims and anthrax”. She compared the voter’s choice to “anthrax and pancakes.”

  195. 195.

    Matt McIrvin

    @206inKY: I think they wanted to see a kill shot like Harris delivered against Trump. But you weren’t going to see that from Walz. Harris might have been able to do it to Vance, but, you know, that debate got preempted.

  197. 197.

    JiveTurkin

    I know this is a thread on the debate but as a devoted poll-watcher (I was in the polling business, mostly marketing but an occasional political poll) I have to post this from the NC poll that has Trump leading by 3 points:

    Among voters ages 18-34, Harris has seen a 31-point shift since last month, when she led Trump 55 percent to 42 percent. Today, her support has declined by 16 points, to 39 percent, and Trump’s support has increased by 15 points, to 57 percent.

    Does anyone believe that Trump is ahead of Harris among 18-34 year olds by 15 points?  You are talking about a demo cell of about 275 people.  The first poll might have been a little high but there is no way a shift like that occurred.

  198. 198.

    WaterGirl

    @PsiFighter37: really? I’d say the Harris campaign is doing a damn good job and she has a ton of people left over from Biden’s campaign.

    Plus after the election, you don’t need the campaign people, right?

  200. 200.

    EM

    Didn’t really get that impression at all. I thought Walsz did  fine and clearly won. I think Josh Marshall probably summed it up best this evening I pretty much agree with every word he said.

  203. 203.

    Splitting Image

    @WaterGirl:

    Vance’s eyes are cold and dead. Not a bit of humanity in there. I wouldn’t get on an elevator with him.

    He fits in well with Stephen Miller, RFK Jr., and a whole bunch of school shooters then.

    (Stephen Harper, too, if we’re counting Canadians.)

  204. 204.

    Art

    IMHO Trump dies if he wins. Vance is The: Dominionist, 2025, Crypto, Techbro, billionaire’s true believer and ace in-the-hole. Trump is incapable of being a true believer to anything but himself. He would throw every one of those groups under the bus if it will grant him power, wealth, adulation. Or keep him out of jail. He has no shame or loyalty. No self-control He is skittish and unpredictable, to the point of self-sabotage, on a good day.

    Vance, on the other hand went hard-core Catholic. Inclusion in Opus Dei is unconfirmed but remains possible. He is seen as relatively ideologically reliable by most factions. Something of a trick given that while getting into power is their common cause, the methods and details of management are not. If they land this trout I expect the knives to be out.

    But Mister ‘loose cannon’ is in the way and Vance, Mister ‘acceptable to all ticket holders’ is, as the saying goes, a heartbeat away from the presidency. It isn’t as if Trump is really healthy. A slip in the shower, heart attack, or stroke wouldn’t shock anyone. If anything, he seems overdue.

    A few days of crocodile tears, rending of clothes and dirt nap. They may paint the concrete they pour over his grave green to make it less obvious … grass won’t grow with that many people dancing on it.

    Then there will be lessons in the advanced use of cutlery as the concerned parties work out their differences before they carve and serve up what is left of the American dream.

  208. 208.

    karen marie

    @JiveTurkin: I think it was the NYT poll – two polls maybe a month apart, they were claiming a 20 point swing from Harris to Trump in Arizona a couple weeks ago.  As lots of peeps be saying, ignore the polls unless you’re using them as inspiration to do GOTV.

  209. 209.

    Kay

    @Matt McIrvin:

    The NYTimes has an analysis up where Walz actually got many more hits in on TRUMP than Vance did on Harris.

    Which is, after all, the job of the VP in the campaign. He goes after the Presidential candidate. not the VP candidate.

    I think we’ve sort of wandered off the objective here. It’s beating Trump. Vance doesn’t matter.

  210. 210.

    BR

    @Kay: ​

    I wonder if enough people on the GOP side say Vance did a good job that Trump will get worried that he’s being overshadowed and lash out at Vance somehow.

  211. 211.

    Kay

    The polling is 42/41 with 17 saying it’s a tie.

    Which just perfectly describes the US electorate, right? The 17 are the normies :)

  217. 217.

    Splitting Image

    @JiveTurkin:

    I know this is a thread on the debate but as a devoted poll-watcher (I was in the polling business, mostly marketing but an occasional political poll) I have to post this from the NC poll that has Drumpf leading by 3 points:

    Among voters ages 18-34, Harris has seen a 31-point shift since last month, when she led Drumpf 55 percent to 42 percent. Today, her support has declined by 16 points, to 39 percent, and Drumpf’s support has increased by 15 points, to 57 percent.

    Does anyone believe that Drumpf is ahead of Harris among 18-34 year olds by 15 points?  You are talking about a demo cell of about 275 people.  The first poll might have been a little high but there is no way a shift like that occurred.

    People sometimes say that there are no undecideds left, but that isn’t entirely true. There has always been a section of the electorate that votes for the person they expect to win. They tend to follow horserace coverage very closely, pay no attention to discussion of actual issues or what a government actually does, and choose who to vote for on election day based on who is ahead in the polls or who seems to have momentum in a close race.

    Since this might be the only section of the electorate left to be swayed, the pollsters are doing their level best to sway it. The polls will be repeatedly swinging towards Trump as we get closer to the election, but this will likely be due to attempts to create momentum rather than evidence of actual momentum.

  218. 218.

    Poe Larity

    @karen marie: Have you heard of OAnon? They leaked the secret parts of  Project 2025. Namely:

    ”Cabinet appointments should be made with the highest prospects of enacting the 25th Amendment and installing JD Vance as POTUS”

    Trump is only going to get more paranoid. Feed it.

  219. 219.

    lamh47

    @Grover Gardner: I don’t buy that there are any “undecided” voters…just folks fishing for compliment and attention from pols.

    I think “Undecided” are the folks just waiting until last minute October surprise to “rule out” one or the other, or who’s not paying attention to the debate anyway and just seeing clips like many others.

  220. 220.

    Another Scott

    Pete Buttigieg

    @PeteButtigieg
    38m

    Tonight Tim Walz displayed his characteristic decency and passion for making everyday life better for Americans. Even when facing polished falsehoods, he reminded us why the future will be so much better under Kamala Harris’ leadership than a return to the chaos of the Trump era.
     
    Oct 2, 2024 · 2:59 AM UTC

    +1

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  221. 221.

    WaterGirl

    @Ishiyama: OK I have to ask. I don’t watch the cable news shows so I have no idea what the spin room is. Is it a literal TV show called the spin room? Or does it just mean that you’re going on national TV to promote how are you did?

  222. 222.

    H.E.Wolf

    On the assumption that this election will be won on turnout, I just finished my latest batch of five GOTV postcards. If you thought you heard a sonic boom, that’s due to my lickety-split writing speed.

    [ETA: That’s a joke. It took me 3 days to write them.]

    Requesting 5 more addresses tomorrow. And I’m continuing my database cleanup project, making sure campaign volunteers are reachable by their local field organizers. I’m all the way up to the letter “S”!​

  225. 225.

    lamh47

    @stacib: the people who believe the lies of Vance are happy to believe the lies of Trump anyway…so even if Vance somehow were to tell the truth, them folks are steadfast anyway.

    Folks who dont’ mind being lied to listen to whatever is said with no research, so narrative is what sways them anyway…

  226. 226.

    Yutsano

    I’m eating a whole pile of Ina Garten’s lemon cappellini and honestly listened more than watched. Walz was fine. Vance was slick until the non-answer on the 2020 election. I think that should end his career. Probably not until Ohio tilts purple again.

    And I listened to this clip of Walz on healthcare policy (warning Xitter link) and I think it’s actually a stronger answer than when I saw it live.

  228. 228.

    Kay

    VP debate watchers tonight overwhelmingly describe its tone as positive
    Roughly even numbers say Walz and Vance “won,” with both candidates improving favorability numbers from where they were pre-debate

    No one is going to remember this in 8 hours.

  229. 229.

    eclare

    Hahaha, Colbert starting with an ad for the NFL where the players call all of the penalties, mark the downs, etc.  The games will still have refs because it’s funny when they’re tackled.  Sounds like tonight’s debate.

  232. 232.

    H.E.Wolf

    @WaterGirl: ​@H.E.Wolf: S is great progress!

     It is!

    That said, S is interminable. I thought the letter M went on forever, but S casts it into the shade.

  234. 234.

    Bupalos

    I think Trump gets more out of this than Harris. An air of traditional political professionalism which can actually maybe help him. I’m genuinely surprised after the very strategic pres debate that they seemingly had no strategy here, and just had Walz try to debate and be likable. How he didn’t use the words “slick,” “lawyer,” “Yale,” I have no idea. This feels like it should have been pretty easy, Vance is so artificial and so clearly a hired gun and clashes with Trump’s style so badly. It’s begging to be called out, instead he just kind of politely argued with him, on policy that Trump couldn’t give 2 shits about, and more or less furthered the charade. ah well. Probably not significant, just feels like a hanging curve we popped up.

  235. 235.

    Kent

     

    @Grover Gardner: I don’t buy that there are any “undecided” voters…just folks fishing for compliment and attention from pols.

    I think “Undecided” are the folks just waiting until last minute October surprise to “rule out” one or the other, or who’s not paying attention to the debate anyway and just seeing clips like many others.

    I don’t think there are many people at all who genuinely don’t know whether they are Republicans or Democrats.

    What I do think there are is say Republicans who are at this point undecided if they are going to vote for Trump or abandon him.

    There were probably Democrats who felt the same about Biden and maybe still are about Harris but different ones.  Young people were more undecided about Biden. There are probably old white folks who were comfortable with Biden but maybe less so with Harris.

  236. 236.

    Kay

    NBC News just polled their focus group of 6 undecided voters in Pennsylvania who won the VP debate. 5 of 6 said Tim Walz won the debate.

    Told ya. Normies preferred Walz.

    People hate lawyers. I say this as a lawyer.

  242. 242.

    3Sice

    Vance is intent on remaining a viable candidate for 2028, which generates flying catsup. Another day ending in y at Mar-a-lago.

  243. 243.

    Kay

    @BR:

    I think liberals have a penchant for what I call Rachel Maddowing – not trusting the audience and ex-plai-ning ev-ery-thing.

    You don’t really have to literally tell people “this guy is a slick, lying lawyer!”

    He is a slick lawyer. They’ll pick that up. They can get some distance by themselves. They don’t have to be led every step of the way.

  245. 245.

    Kent

    Scanning the headlines of the various major news sites this whole debate is just a big shrug.  A “clash” on issues.  Mostly just sandwiched between coverage of Israel/Iran and Hurricane Helene.

    I expect it will be forgotten in 24 hours.  VP debates are usually pretty inconsequential.  What will drive the outcome of this race is Trump and Harris.

    I thought Vance was very slick and smarmy and not very likeable.  But then I knew how much he was lying.  The average person, perhaps not so much.  Walz was less polished and a little to earnest and talked in shorthand too much.  I knew what he meant by things but not everyone necessarily will.  But I thought he was fine.  The 15 second video clips that go into ads will be more important than the debate I think.

  246. 246.

    WaterGirl

    @Kent: I like to think that most women will have recognized those dead eyes, regardless of their political affiliation.

  247. 247.

    dexwood

    Oops, I tried to edit my comment at 223, but could not although the edit button was active. The first copying should have been following.

  249. 249.

    BR

    @Kay:

    I always go back and forth on that sort of thing. Because voters clearly get duped all the time by lying GOP politicians, so they don’t always have good gut instincts (or they like comforting lies over uncomfortable truths).

    So maybe voters aren’t the best judges of facts, but most people weren’t born yesterday and have dealt with all sorts of people in their lives and know a car salesman when they see one.

  250. 250.

    BR

    If anything, this may be a reminder at how remarkable Harris’s debate performance was. She went from a standing start to what everyone agrees was a commanding debate performance over Trump, demonstrating that she was presidential while making Trump seem deranged.

  256. 256.

    Trivia Man

    @Kay: Somebody had a brilliant idea – “You are so much smarter than Donald, I have to give you credit.” Make him shit talk himself or make DonOld look bad.

  258. 258.

    Trivia Man

    @WaterGirl: The Spin Room used to be more important. After the debate, campaign surrogates would spin their impression (wink wink) of the debate to their media friends. Trying to get THEIR take into the next days stories. Important to do when the newspaper only publishes once or twice a day and that is the main source of news. Much less important now with instant access for everyone.

  261. 261.

    Jay

    @WaterGirl:

    I am not sure how the word is being used, other than perhaps “thin lipped”,

    The human body has a variety of frenulums of various uses.

  262. 262.

    Sister Golden Bear

    Worth noting that normies didn’t watch the whole debate, so they’ll only see a few highlight videos, either on the news or social media. At the moment, it seems like those bits will be related to Vance’s Jan. 6 denial, and his complaining about being fact checked.

  263. 263.

    Trivia Man

    @eclare: My bad – should have specified to search “mouth + frenulum” to specify WHICH one. I apologize. It is a generic term for “tissue securing a mobile organ” and doesn’t come up much in conversation. Except in occasional trivia games. Like “philtrum” or “xyphoid.”

    The next time I write a quiz game for work I want to have a round where you have to point to the body part named.

  266. 266.

    eclare

    @Trivia Man:

    That is not the first definition that Google returned.  Your definition makes a lot more sense.  I was wondering, “huh?” to your comments.

  270. 270.

    Lily

    I’ve been thinking “The People” would enjoy a quiz show format more than a debate.  Could use questions from the US citizenship test. Some T/F quotes from the Constitution.  Maybe a lightening round at the end, candidates get a buzzer.  More people tune in, kids could learn a few things.

  275. 275.

    Trivia Man

    @Lily: Love the idea of the citizenship test questions. The president is a manger type role, knowing HOW the system works is essential. I agree it is not the ONLY thing but knowing the basics should be a job requirement.

  278. 278.

    Art

    @Trivia Man: Yes, nominally presentable. Envisioned by the Dominionists and New Christians as the figure of staid rectitude and well controlled sexuality suitable as the heir apparent and prince of a new dynasty.

    Even if he is a couch fucker.

  280. 280.

    Lily

    When asked if he’d honor election results, Vance changed the subject.

    Pressed:  “But since you asked, I will answer.”

    A sovereign making clear the power is entirely his.

  281. 281.

    Chet Murthy

    @Lily: Our Republic is in a parlous state, when an obvious seditionist cannot be called-out on a debate stage as such, for fear of offending needed votes.  Sigh.

  282. 282.

    Jay

    @Captain C:

    Only with explosives. Have you seen the sheet metal fab on that thing? It’s basically a bunch of Gillette Razor blades driving in close formation.

  284. 284.

    Captain C

    @Jay: It’ll be a two-parter.  First, he goes around and shows everything wrong with it.  Then he blows it up from a safe distance.  Also, to prevent fuckery, Melon Husk must offer himself up as a hostage until the episode is taped.

  285. 285.

    RevRick

    If it’s any consolation:

    1). Instant polls essentially said it was a tie;

    2). Walz was judged more fitting for VP after the debate;

    3). Pundits are focused on two Vance responses: his whining about being fact-checked and his refusal to give a yes or no answer to Walz’s question about Trump losing in 2020.

    Debate wins and losses count for little. It’s the narrative and sound bites that come out of it that matters more.

  286. 286.

    cain

    @Kay:

    I think you are right that normies  would be ok with this debate and that from that lens, Walz did a good job of just being a human and answering questions and NOT LYING.

  288. 288.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @RevRick: Kos said the same thing.

    “If this debate has any impact on the race, it won’t be because of those watching it to the end (political junkies), or an increasingly ridiculous punditry. It will be because of the meme war. And as such, I’m guessing the Zoomers will have a lot more material to mock Vance than Walz.”

  289. 289.

    Another Scott

    @Lily:

    NPR.org – Should you vote your feelings? A traveling play helps audiences think that through:

    […]

    Fight Night premiered to great acclaim at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 2013. It’s toured the world since then, with performances in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Russia, Australia and Hong Kong. The current U.S. tour includes upcoming stops in Durham, N.C., Minneapolis and Santa Barbara, Calif.

    Angelo Tijssens plays the sinister emcee and is part of the Belgian theater group Ontroerend Goed. The group created this show, under the direction of Alexander Devriendt, after a real-life political crisis that paralyzed the country.

    “We spent 541 days without a federal government in Belgium,” Tijssens told NPR. In 2007, a right-wing Flemish politician named Bart De Wever won a popular TV quiz show called The Smartest Person in the World and became unexpectedly powerful. Forming coalitions turned out to be nearly impossible for a period during De Wever’s rise.

    Tijssens and Devriendt became fascinated by entertainment’s influence on democracy. “And as humans always do, thinking that this was very specific to this point in history, we started reading and found out it wasn’t,” Tijssens said. “The Greeks had already written about the dangers of politicians being too popular.”

    They decided to create an ambitious show about democracy in general, rather than about specific issues, such as housing, or social reform, “or climate, or abortion rights, or everything else I’d really like to talk or even shout about,” Tijssens said. “But just about – how does the system work, and how easy it is to be influenced.”

    Like theater, he pointed out, democracy needs people to show up in person.

    […]

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  291. 291.

    cain

    @Jackie:

    Walz should have taken my advice and started talking about crowd sizes. Knowing that it will trigger the fuck out of Trump and created a melt down.

    You want to sow chaos in the campaign. Even better, find ways to direct Trump’s fury onto Vance.

  292. 292.

    SatanicPanic

    Vance is an asshole but we knew that. Walz is a good dude. I dunno, the debate took place and it was predictably dumb. I don’t think it will matter.
    it reminded me why I rarely watch debates. 🤷‍♂️

     

    More importantly my team won a playoff game! Sorry to any Braves fans but really you guys win lots of these games

  293. 293.

    Chet Murthy

    @SatanicPanic: I was planning on watching it, but when the moment came, I was content to read the threads here and do some hacking instead.  Didn’t feel like I missed anything.

  294. 294.

    Msb

    @BR: I was thinking similarly – Vance acting vaguely human for 90 mins makes Trump’s complete failure more obvious.

  296. 296.

    SectionH

    @SatanicPanic: Hey, the first thing my husband told me from his hospital bed after his surgery was that last he’d seen the Padres were ahead 3-0. That’s absolutely true. ( He’s fine, coming home tomorrow. )
    The early bits of the “debate” were on the TV in his room, and he just turned it off. He was reading BJ for a while later though.

    erta

  302. 302.

    SomeRandomGuy

    I knew Yale Law would teach you all about sophistries, but, I thought the goal was for people to *pierce* them, not engage in them with wild abandon.

    “Kamala Harris has actually been President, see, so, why hasn’t she done what a President should have done? Why is she asking for a promotion, to President, where she *CAN* do Presidential things? Huh? That makes no sense, since she’s already President, yet she’s asking… for a promotion. Um.  Uh… uh… INFLATION IS KILLING US! Literally KILLING us, you, our debate moderators, I see you aging unnaturally quickly due to INFLATION!”

    Did he say anything that wasn’t an insult to the intelligence of every half-rotted tomato in every American school cafeteria in the nation? (Some of those tomatoes *are*, well, “developmentally disabled,” due to the location of the rot – I wanted to include *those* tomatoes too. To be fair to Vance and all.)

    He didn’t *say* concepts of a plan; he fucking *DANCED* it.

    If he’d been the star of Pinocchio, he’d have accidentally staked the good fairy through the heart from the sheer velocity of “plain as the nose on your face” lies.

    I’d say he could give TFG lessons, but, since TFG is bragging that he’s definitely smarter than the developmentally disabled, half-rotted, tomatoes, yada yada, because two of those tomatoes did worse than him on the cognitive screen, you know, man, woman, kill, me, and now? Yeah, I don’t think “lessons” are something he “takes”. That said:  I’ll grant that he’s smarter than more half-rotted tomatoes than any other ex-president ever. (Strangely, no one else thought the competition was worth joining, and respectfully declined participation. Vote TFG so people STOP laughing at us!)

  303. 303.

    TBone

    I’m not waiting for any pundit to tell me who won or what I think about that debate.  Vance tried to be slicker than owl shit, deflected about who won the 2020 election as well as the J6 coup attempt, and objected melted down when reminded that the Springfield people are here “legally.”

    YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY SIR.

    https://youtu.be/HaoySOGlZ_U

  305. 305.

    MagdaInBlack

    @TBone: Bottom line: he is a smarmy lying punk-ass creep.

    I did not watch, and I’m not at all interested in media takes on this.

  306. 306.

    Gvg

    @cain: not sure that will work. Vance’s crowd sizes are even more pathetic than Trump’s have dwindled to. Maybe some speculation that Trump’s people are making sure he doesn’t upstage Trump because he is insecure or did Trump make a mistake picking him as his base hasn’t really warmed up to Vance?

  307. 307.

    Princess

    @Kay: My normie friends really liked the general civility of the debate but thought that Vance was doing a lot of lying. So, yeah.

  308. 308.

    Baud

    I think the difference between what plugged in liberals want and what normies want presents real challenges for Democratic candidates everywhere.

  310. 310.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Baud: Which is true for most political parties, or indeed, most large groups comprised of people who self-identify as being a member of the group.

    We’re the tip of the spear for the Democratic group, so we’ll be perpetually impatient with the laggards (normies) and perpetually frustrated with any group leader that attends to the normies too much. What “too much” actually is can only be appreciated in retrospect, so…yeah.

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