Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

Everybody saw this coming.

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

“Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on.”

The “burn-it-down” people are good with that until they become part of the kindling.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

No Kings: Americans standing in the way of bad history saying “Oh, Fuck No!”

Celebrate the fucking wins.

You are either for trump or for democracy. Pick one.

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

In after Baud. Damn.

They are not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.

They love authoritarianism, but only when they get to be the authoritarians.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Ya Done Fucked Up, Son

Ya Done Fucked Up, Son

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Ya Done Fucked Up, Son

I was frustrated during last night’s VP debate because of the excessive comity and deference that I felt Walz was giving Vance, and I posted about that at halftime.  The polls I’ve seen show that Walz improved his favorables, as did Vance, though JD is still underwater.  Walz’ favorable minius unfavorable is like +33% in the poll I saw, which is just amazing in this environment.  So, if the “JD and I have areas of agreement” strategy was to keep increasing the already positive opinions of Walz held by the public, it worked.

I’ve also seen commentary that Walz’ strategy was to get the message out that JD has some reasonable views, but since he’s gotta kiss Trump’s ass, he’s afraid to do it.  That sure worked in the J6 exchange, which I think was the moment where Vance done fucked up.  Walz’ reaction shot on that one was priceless, as was his remark that the only reason Vance was on the stage is because Pence wouldn’t do what Trump wanted on January 6.

That all said, they don’t come any slicker than Vance, and expecting Walz to match that slickness is a mistake, and I don’t think I made that mistake.  Walz is smart and he’s good at explaining important policies from the heart.  It’s easy to appear smooth if all you’re doing is cranking out lies, which is what Vance was doing.  Vance as couchfucker was a good laugh, and he can be awkward when he’s not scripted.  But when he’s prepped and scripted, he’s a scary motherfucker, because he lies so well, and he expects that his lies will carry the day.  He’s not wrong, because if you look at the press coverage this morning, most of the big news orgs are sticking with theater criticism instead of looking at the content of what Vance said.  Vance’s clear expectation that he should never be fact-checked, coupled with the weak institutional press that is scared of fact-checking Republicans, should scare everyone who cares about preserving our democracy and treating everyone humanely.  Jay Rosen gets this exactly right:

Ya Done Fucked Up, Son 1

I’m not a woman (obvs), but the anecdotes I’ve seen indicate that women in general got a real “ewww” feel from Vance, especially when he mentioned that a lot of women want to go to work right after having a baby.  It’s interesting that the yuck vibe from women is about a strong in the negative direction as the yum vibe from male, younger beltway media. Vance is a member of the same tribe as those guys:  Ivy education, slick with words in a formal setting, struggles to fit in socially in any but the Ivy/preppie context, and a real fucking misogynist when you get down to it.  Also, his constant bragging about his kids has a real “I got laid” stench.  Ryan Lizza is the archetype of the kind of beltway dude I’m thinking of, and the news that he blackmailed Olivia Nuzzi with the RFK Jr sexting stuff is very Vance-like.

Finally, a word about Usha Vance.  I see a lot of comments about how she’s going to divorce him because folks have a hard time imagining that a woman would put up with a guy like him.  Nope, she’s cut from the same ambitious, shape-shifting cloth.  They’re an awful, ugly power couple and we’ll unfortunately be hearing more from them.

 

Reader Interactions

242Comments

  1. 1.

    @mistermix.bsky.social

    I’m on a flight and have to shut down but I’ll take a look at the comments later.  Hope all the links work!

  2. 2.

    RaflW

    I want to see a supercut of all the times last night Vance said something reasonable, mixed with the many, many recent times he has said the exact opposite, often in unreasonable tones.

    For example, last night he said more or less, “We need to increase funding for child care.” Yet he is well known for opposing funding child care. Which is it, dude? I know. You know. He lied his ass off last night, and it needs to be shown in clip after clip.

    He’s a plastic flip flop who will say anything that looks ‘reasonable’ when on stage with Tim, but his convictions are weird and deeply unreasonable.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    I think it really is hard to convince normies that Republicans are wrong about everything and we have to fight them on everything. So I can see a less maximalist approach being effecting in convincing them that we’re being reasonable and they should join us. But it’s getting harder and harder for me to relate to other people, so who knows?

  5. 5.

    West of the Rockies

    Kind of off-topic, but I’m getting a bit of Amber Heard vibe from Olivia Nuzzi.  (RFK, Jr. and Lizza are creepy weirdos as well.)  Anyone else?

    Also, JD and Usha:  a more wretched Ryan and Kelly from The Office.

  6. 6.

    RaflW

    @OP “They’re an awful, ugly power couple and we’ll unfortunately be hearing more from them.”

    The thing I really took away from last night is how dangerous an empty but very ambitious vessel like Vance is. He’d fire up the ovens if he thought it’d advance his personal power. He made that super clear when he admitted he was pushing the heinous dog eating lies ‘to get attention’.

    And his slick, sleazy cavalcade of comfy bullshit that contradicts his own recent policy positions makes it clear there’s nothing inside but blind lust for power.

  7. 7.

    Tractarian

    The media loves “slick”; voters don’t.

    “The rules were you weren’t going to fact check!” is the only thing that will be remembered about this debate.

  8. 8.

    hrprogressive

    A lot of people instinctively won’t trust “slick”, because slick people are always trying to find a mark.

    That said, my bigger concern is that if Harris & Walz do actually win this year, and/or even if they win two terms

    A polished, slick, lying Fascist like Vance us, IMO, far more dangerous than a brain-addled, can’t put coherent sentences together guy.

    DeSantis has proved he doesn’t have the gravitas to carry the alleged “Post Trump” swastika.

    But a guy like Vance does.

    Even if he’s beaten now, he won’t be going anywhere.

  9. 9.

    BR

    @RaflW: ​

    This old article was going around lately and someone said Vance is this guy:

    Mr. C is a brilliant and embittered intellectual. He was a poor white-trash Southern boy, a scholarship student at two universities where he took all the scholastic honors but was never invited to join a fraternity. His brilliant gifts won for him successively government positions, partnership in a prominent law firm, and eventually a highly paid job as a Wall Street adviser. He has always moved among important people and always been socially on the periphery. His colleagues have admired his brains and exploited them, but they have seldom invited him—or his wife—to dinner.

    He is a snob, loathing his own snobbery. He despises the men about him—he despises, for instance, Mr. B—because he knows that what he has had to achieve by relentless work men like B have won by knowing the right people. But his contempt is inextricably mingled with envy. Even more than he hates the class into which he has insecurely risen, does he hate the people from whom he came. He hates his mother and his father for being his parents. He loathes everything that reminds him of his origins and his humiliations. He is bitterly anti-Semitic because the social insecurity of the Jews reminds him of his own psychological insecurity.

    Pity he has utterly erased from his nature, and joy he has never known. He has an ambition, bitter and burning. It is to rise to such an eminence that no one can ever again humiliate him. Not to rule but to be the secret ruler, pulling the strings of puppets created by his brains. Already some of them are talking his language—though they have never met him.

    There he sits: he talks awkwardly rather than glibly; he is courteous. He commands a distant and cold respect. But he is a very dangerous man. Were he primitive and brutal he would be a criminal—a murderer. But he is subtle and cruel. He would rise high in a Nazi regime. It would need men just like him—intellectual and ruthless. But Mr. C is not a born Nazi. He is the product of a democracy hypocritically preaching social equality and practicing a carelessly brutal snobbery. He is a sensitive, gifted man who has been humiliated into nihilism. He would laugh to see heads roll.

    https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/

  10. 10.

    Belafon

    Walz hurt his chance to be elected president. We’ll have to go with the woman on the ticket.

  11. 11.

    Another Scott

    Vance is dangerous because he’s a smart weathervane. He’s done, and will continue to do, anything that helps his personal brand get increasing power. Him being in the Senate is bad enough – he would be a disaster in the White House.

    He worked with Sen. Brown on Brown’s rail safety bill. Of course making the MotUs that run the rail roads do anything that might decrease next quarters profits is verboten for the GQP, and Moscow Mitch is against it, so whether it can overcome a cloture vote is unknown and Vance can’t list 10+ GQPers who would vote for it.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  13. 13.

    Greebe

    Those times Vance was forced to defend Trump, images from the start of any “Sitting with Dogs” episode when Kanaka first enters a kennel in which a frightened dog is just shut down—whole body trembling and pressed against the wall—kept flashing through my mind.

    And that’s how I’ll always think of Vance.

  14. 14.

    Wapiti

    Usha knows she’ll be given a judgeship next time the Repubs control the Presidency and Senate.

  15. 15.

    Ruckus

    @RaflW:

    Your one sentence says it all.

    He’s a plastic flip flop who will say anything that looks ‘reasonable’ when on stage with Tim, but his convictions are weird and deeply unreasonable.

  16. 16.

    TBone

    Walz punched Donold, not J Divanka, right in the face several times, while looking straight into the camera.  I thought that was a stroke of genius.

  17. 17.

    waspuppet

    First of all, among the Trump tribe, “fact-check” is a term of art for “liberal bias.” (About three-quarters of the English language falls in this category for them.) He forgot that actual Americans could hear him.

    Maybe I’m just in a particularly intolerant mood, but I highly recommend Jamison Foster’s latest, which can be summarized as “WhoTAF is JD Vance anyway? What has he ever actually done that anyone outside his family should know his name?” Foser points out that the stock answer “He wrote a bestselling book” doesn’t fly—he wrote two NYT pieces and a WSJ piece, and was profiled in the NYT, before his book even came out, and David Fucking Brooks devoted his entire column to the book the day it came out. JD Vance happened because the “liberal” media he loves to complain about was bound and determined to make him happen. And the wingnut welfare machine took it from there.

    In conclusion, fuck that guy.

  18. 18.

    narya

    Re-upping: The Harris/Walz campaign is already using the clip of J. Divan not being able to say that TCFG lost, interleaved with J6 footage, as an ad.

  19. 19.

    TBone

    I think that Tim Walz’s attacking Donold, instead of that fucking guy standing next to him, showed just how literally the rethugs are all tied to the millstone hanging ’round their necks.  Tim Walz knew exactly which enemy to zero in on last night to demonstrate the sniveling fealty of the cult.

  21. 21.

    Ruckus

    @hrprogressive:

    vance is the guy who believes he far more than just deserves what he wants, which is already everything. He believes that we all owe him everything.

    The words pompous, arrogant, asshole come to mind.

  22. 22.

    Eduardo

     

    Also, his constant bragging about his kids has a real “I got laid” stench

    He gives some vibes.

  23. 23.

    3Sice

    He will shoot the Trump family into the sun the moment the opportunity arises.

    He is the inside man for the Thiel/Musk leveraged buyout of the GOP.

  24. 24.

    hells littlest angel

    I’m beginning to suspect that Walz’s “excessive comity and deference” is something that looked bad in the immediate term, but will pay off in the longer run. The magical spell that Vance cast simply by not being a flaming gaping asshole seems to be already wearing off, and even the chattering class has begun to say, hey, wait a minute, Vance is kind of a lying bastard, and Walz is a serious, decent guy. Time will tell.

  25. 25.

    TBone

    J Divanka’s very first utterances at the podium were designed to deflect the question and talk about himself as if he needed to introduce himself – “I am a poor white hillbilly just like you!” and, right then and there, everyone could tell he thinks he’s getting that schtick over just because he wrote has a book with that title and his name on it.

  26. 26.

    Matt McIrvin

    @waspuppet: Vance came to prominence as a human Cletus Safari– an erudite, educated man who, because of his origin, could interpret for us, the educated elite,  the strange impulses that led the rubes to Mr. Trump, who he did not support.

    Just playing to the rubes themselves makes him less interesting.

  27. 27.

    lamh47

    As I said last night, to the averager non-dialed in voter and majority of “sane” women, Vance look\ed like a condescendy jackass, while Tim came off as the nice guy he’s always been claiming to be. Again, all Walz has to do is NOT stumble and not come off as unlikeable…ask yourself this, is Vance coming off as “likeable” or even “personable”.

    I also see folks mentioning that one of the other VP contenders known to be “sharper” in the press, would have been sharper towards Vance at the debate and go toe to toe, ok, and maybe so, but also guess what the headlines would just find a way to claim the “XYZ shines at VP debate, some say outshined Kamala…” or some other bullshit like that.

  29. 29.

    BR

    @lamh47: ​

    Vance does create a contrast with Trump in terms of coherence. I wonder if someone is teeing up side by side clips of Vance’s and Trump’s performances to make an ad that airs only at mar a lago to drive a wedge between Trump and Vance.

  31. 31.

    Hoodie

    @BR: In terms of Nazi, I’d say Vance is an American counterpart of Albert Speer.  Re Walz’ debate tactics, the vibe given off is probably more important than catching Vance in particular lies.   Vance is more than a bit too in love with his cleverness and too self-conscious about being seen as right, which is not an effective trait when you constantly lie (Trump has a similar problem, e.g., the Sharpie incident).  Examples include the whining about fact checking (he just had to get in some tortured explanation that he was right about the Haitians being illegal immigrants) and the clumsy jujitsu moves he tried to do about child separation and Trump denying he lost in 2020.   A lot of people probably picked up on those things irrespective of the policy details.  Starting every response with the name of the questioner also came across like something learned in a sales seminar.

  32. 32.

    counterfactual

    I skipped the debate and the analysis since debates never mean much in the vote and I’m just so tired of all this crap.

    I am consoling myself with the thought that while Vance may have performed well, Trump face-planted in his debate. That means that the minion has outshone the master, and that may mean more ketchup on Mar-a-lago’s walls, or even in-fighting among the entourage.

  33. 33.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    Will voters focus on the fact that Vance might well become President if Trump wins the election? You can be sure that is uppermost in Vance’s own mind and I think it shows.

    [ETA I wonder how many “undecided” people chose to watch.]

  35. 35.

    TBone

    @TBone:  Tim Walz landed several punches, including this forceful uppercut to the jaw:

    For everyone tonight, and I’m gonna thank Senator Vance, I think this is the conversation they wanted to hear and I think there’s a lot of agreement. This is one that we’re miles apart on. This was a threat to our democracy in a way that we had not seen. And it manifested itself because of Donald Trump’s inability to say—he is still saying he didn’t lose the election. I will just ask, did he lose the 2020 election?”

  36. 36.

    Steve LaBonne

    Didn’t watch but have read some post-debate commentary. Seems like the viral moments are going to be “you guys weren’t supposed to fact check” and “that’s a damning non-answer”. I’ll take it.

  37. 37.

    Hoodie

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: I’m not sure what Vance was trying to achieve last night.  He did a pretty shitty job of defending Trump.  He seemed to me like a guy who has become skilled in a certain type of high-end bullshitting and likes to hear himself talk.  Trump’s a bullshitter, but aimed at a low brow audience.  Vance’s is directed to arrivistes like the ones he was surrounded by at Yale and working for Thiel.

  39. 39.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Hoodie: I can’t see Couchfucker having a lot of appeal to the yahoos after Trump leaves the scene. They want the raw meat that Trump provides, maybe better than ever in his current demented state because he’ll say anything.

  40. 40.

    Hoodie

    @Sister Golden Bear: I’d say it’s more that Vance stepped on his own dick multiple times and didn’t do much for Trump.  Walz did fine, didn’t overshadow Kamala.  About what we’d want to see.

  41. 41.

    Kay

    I met the voter these debates are geared to this past weekend, canvassing. I found her infuriating (and boring) but these people exist and they are the “undecideds”. She doesn’t like Trump but she also doesn’t “trust” Harris. She believes a lot of nonsense she has seen online – for example, she told me AOC is “worth 25 million” since coming to Congress – AOC is “worth” 31,000 (I looked it up). She wants to “lock Republicans and Democrats in a room and keep them there until they agree” and she’s defensive about Trump voters – asked me if I really believed they were bad people. She was also super proud of being an “independent” and told me the best people are independents.

    These are the people who are on these undecided voter panels – sad  but true. Debates suck because these are the people they’re geared to.

  44. 44.

    Ruckus

    @hells littlest angel:

    Vance is kind of a lying bastard, and Walz is a serious, decent guy. Time will tell.

    He’s not kind of. He will say/do anything for power and if he gets what is basically the ultimate power in the US, he will use it in the worst way possible. He is the epitome of conservative politicians who want power for power’s sake – because he DESERVES IT. Just ask him. He has zero concept of democracy, he is the kind of human that thinks his shit doesn’t stink, but that’s only because HE stinks worse. In times past he would be the guy that built up power to take over anything and everything to fill his own desires. A modern day Adolf if you will. Now he maybe couldn’t go that far in this country, in this day and age, but he’s not the kind that should ever have power of any kind – because he will abuse it in any and every way possible. He does not want to be a leader, he wants to be in power. He just has the advantage of seeing that history requires, in a country such as this, that he has to be put in power before he can abuse it. But in my mind abuse it he will. Massively. He sees a chance because of shitforbrains is mentally on his last legs and there is a very likely chance he would have to do nothing other than be elected to VP to end up in the big office. He is the ideal candidate for those that want to have a president who will take out all their grievances on the rest of us, rather than be an actual leader, especially a leader of a “free” country.

  47. 47.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Not well. I’m a good listener- patient – but she was just venting and I tired of it. I made an excuse and got away. I can’t stand that haranguing tone that people adopt now – I think it came from how they film themselves lecturing and post it to social media. It seems practiced. You know the thing I’m talking about – it’s always filmed with them sitting in a car.

    She wants an “outsider” so I assume she’ll vote third party. Ugh. One good thing – she DOES think Trump’s refusal to accept results is a deal breaker. That was the single point I was able to raise and she agreed – seemed sincere.

  48. 48.

    Baud

    @Kay:

    You did better than I would have. Sometime I dislike my misanthropy and I wish I could be more productive

     

    ETA: Agreed about the haranguing tone.

  49. 49.

    Chris

    @RaflW:

    The thing I really took away from last night is how dangerous an empty but very ambitious vessel like Vance is.

    I’ve had a theory for a while that the GOP was ripe for this kind of takeover long before it actually happened precisely because it was full of empty vessels.  Most of their twentieth century politicians, even before Nixon, were empty suits who didn’t actually have much reason for being in politics except that they thought they should be in charge.

    And the more I look at conservative parties in Europe in the present day, the more I think that’s accurate.  Yes, you have your Angela Merkels who push back, but they’re the exception rather than the rule.  The norm for European “center-right” parties over the last decade or two has been to slide more and more into fascist-curious territory, if they don’t jump headfirst into it altogether like the Tories did when they decided to become the Brexit Party.  Like the GOP in the second half of last century and the beginning of this one, they’re gradually turning into fascists themselves, and there’s not much pushback against it simply because that kind of pushback would require actually having the sort of ideological spine that tells you fascism is a bad thing and should be pushed back against… and most conservative politicians simply don’t have that.  They’re in it for themselves and if fascism is the hot new thing that’s going to help themselves get into power, then let’s get on with it.

  50. 50.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: The dumbest people in the country will decide this election. It’s depressing, but here we are. Kudos to you for having the patience to talk to people like that. I’ve done my share of canvassing in the past, but I’m not good at it, so I volunteer for behind the scenes stuff instead and do postcards.

  51. 51.

    Ruckus

    @Hoodie:

    vance is looking for power.

    Period, end of sentence.

    He doesn’t give one iota about shitforbrains other than he is a easier, sooner step to where he wants to be than running for president himself. He is not a stupid human, he is an evil one. He is in this not for democracy or the country, he is in this for one human and one human only – jdv

    trump is his road to the presidency, to power, a road he could never drive himself down.

  54. 54.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Ruckus: He may think he’s in it for himself, but he’s really in it for Thiel, who exploited Beavis and Butthead’s stupidity to parachute him into the campaign.

  56. 56.

    Nukular Biskits

    @Baud:

    How would a true undecided voter sound?

    TBH, I’m having a hard time understanding how ANYONE could be undecided, particularly at this point in history … so I’m not sure I can answer that question.

    I’m of the same opinion (twisting Jon Stewart’s words a bit) that there are only 6 undecided voters and they’re all that way because they were kicked in the head by a horse.

    That’s not to say there aren’t actual undecided voters (or at least people who claim to be undecided).

    But, then , consider this is from a guy who lives in a state that overwhelmingly supports Medicaid expansion but reelected a governor who is overwhelmingly opposed to Medicaid expansion.

  58. 58.

    Jeffg166

    I mailed my mail in ballot on Monday in a prepaid official mail in ballot envelope. My return address is on it as is the location it is to go to. I found the mail in ballot in my mailbox this morning. It had been returned to me. I called the city and was told to put it in a drop box near me. Also called my state rep’s office and was told this was the second phone call telling them this story. I have used mail in ballots for several years now and never had my ballot sent back to me. Something weird is going on. I am in Philadelphia PA.

  59. 59.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Baud: Agreed.  I don’t think many people actually jump from seeing Republicans as reasonable, maybe even having some good points, to Republicans-Are-Wrong-On-Everything in one quick jump.  Coming to terms with the fact that everything you’ve been told about Republicans is bullshit must be very hard for people who live mostly among them and have them as friends/family.  So I imagine taking it one issue at a time and then letting them come to the realization that it’s really EVERY issue, when they are ready, can be a good approach.

  60. 60.

    Baud

    @Nukular Biskits:

    a state that overwhelmingly supports Medicaid expansion but reelected a governor who is overwhelmingly opposed to Medicaid expansion

     

    A necessary evil if one wants to blame Obama Biden Harris.

  61. 61.

    lamh47

    @BR: for the MAGA types, Vance does not outshine chump.  even as inchoherent as he has been, them maga fools still seemed to be enamored of him…

  62. 62.

    kwAwk

    I watched to debate last night and can say it was wild to see the JV team have a productive debate on the issues instead of the insult fest that Trump always has to have it was refreshing and nice.

    It also became very clear to me why Democrats are having such a hard time putting Trump away and that is the complete dependency on talking points, getting in pre-planned ideas and a complete lack of ability to speak extemporaneously or have the courage of their convictions.

    When Walz was asked about the fact that over 50% of Americans support mass deportations, the comeback for that question was leadership.  Any moron can jump in front of the marching band and claim to be the leader, but a real leader takes the group where it needs to go not just where the majority wants to go.

    The issue of mass deportations is a sunk cost fallacy.   We need to make our decisions in this country looking to the future and only on what is best for the future.   We don’t need to fix the past in order to secure the future.  Yes, people who came here illegally did something wrong, but we must admit that we did something by not properly managing our borders decades ago.  Making decisions looking forward we need to secure our borders properly right now and forgiving the transgressions of the past.  We need to secure our border while we provide a soft landing as we put our country on the right path.   I believe that Kamala Harris has the judgment and leadership ability to lead us to that soft landing.

    Deporting millions of working people, removing their contributions to our GDP will only result in a recession.  Millions of these people work and shop at the same places you do.   Removing that available labor will cause the economy to shrink.  Implementing dangerous tariffs at the same time as shrinking the labor pool will cause serious inflation to return.   When you have a recessionary economy combined with rising inflation this is caused stagflation.  Stagflation leads to depressions.

    _____

     

    When JD Vance says he believes that Global Warming is real, how about at least giving him a little bit of a welcome to reality.   Ask him if he has permission from the big orange dude to make that proclamation because in preparing for this debate I’ve read the 2024 Republican platform and nowhere in it does mention Global Warming.  In fact from reading it one would get the idea that you’re still in the ‘Drill Baby Drill’ camp.    Maybe Senator Vance, you could have a little talk with Marjorie Taylor Green and Rand Paul and clue them in?  I mean would you possibly say that Global Warming is an Inconvenient Truth right?

    _____

    For all of his faults, one thing that Trump is actually good at is responding to what his opponent actually says in real time.

  63. 63.

    Geminid

    @hells littlest angel: The comity stuff didn’t sound bad at all to me. Some Democrats hate hearing talk of “comity, bipartisanship” etc. from Democratic candidates and that is a common complaint here. They worry that the candidate is not tough enough in the way these Democrats think they are themselves; a shallow and self-centered view on my opinion.

    Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe Democrats should compromise on policies in order to attract Independents. But when it comes to campaign rhetoric I say, hell yeah they should modify their messaging so as to appeal to Independent voters. Democrats who want combative rhetoric and partisan toughness can find it on political blogs where both are so very abundant.

  65. 65.

    Steve LaBonne

    @kwAwk: 

    For all of his faults, one thing that Trump is actually good at is responding to what his opponent actually says in real time.

    Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

  66. 66.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    There’s a group of people who don’t talk politics with people they know but still develop fully formed opinions. They never air the opinions so no one ever questions them so they often don’t make sense or are contradictory. When you canvass they sort of barrage you – like they’ve been waiting for a sounding board. But we’re a month out. I don’t have time for shooting fish in a barrel.

  67. 67.

    Chris

    @BR:

    He has always moved among important people and always been socially on the periphery. His colleagues have admired his brains and exploited them, but they have seldom invited him—or his wife—to dinner.

    He is a snob, loathing his own snobbery. He despises the men about him—he despises, for instance, Mr. B—because he knows that what he has had to achieve by relentless work men like B have won by knowing the right people. But his contempt is inextricably mingled with envy.

    I feel like this, probably for the hypothetical Mr. C and definitely for J. D. Vance, is also missing part of the story.  The reason Vance finds himself excluded and never invited to dinner isn’t because he wasn’t born into their club.  It’s because he’s a fucking creep, and even the people who use him professionally or support him politically don’t actually want to spend their free time around him.  Yes, the upper class has always been cliqueish, and I’m sure Vance did run into people who would never have given him a chance or accepted him as one of them regardless.  But the truth is that Vance could have stayed a normal middle-class Ohio kid with a normal middle-class job and normal middle-class peers, and most people still wouldn’t be inviting him to dinner or trying to be his friend.  Being in Ivy League, Silicon Valley, and now Congress allows him to delude himself that it’s class prejudice, but most people in any social class wouldn’t want to be around him.

  68. 68.

    Nukular Biskits

    @kwAwk:

    For all of his faults, one thing that Trump is actually good at is responding to what his opponent actually says in real time.

    “Responding” and “Answering” are two different things.

  70. 70.

    Gvg

    @Steve LaBonne: yeah well one of these days theil will find out his puppets are all selfish and not loyal. Because of the quality of his ideas, only self centered creeps serve theil so its always going to go off track about who is really in charge.

  75. 75.

    lamh47

    @kwAwk: it hella easy to type out, proofread and write up stuff in word form isn’t it.

    So try to do all of that and fact check without just out right lying about the issue or about your opponent and rinse and repeat.

    Then come back to tell us what “should have been said”…smh

    Also…Chump responding in real time means what exactly…”they are eating cats and dogs…” was a real time response to what exactly?

  78. 78.

    Ruckus

    @Nukular Biskits:

    There are very likely a fair number of ex sfb supporters who see shitforbrains as being well on his way out of being any kind of candidate for any office. But jdv IS the kind of leader they think they want.

    In reality he is the kind of candidate that no one should want. He is in this for one person and one person only – himself.

  80. 80.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @Geminid: I’m personally in the Just-Win-Baby camp.  I’m perfectly fine with Dems making nice with the GOP in order to woo voters and win.  I’m also fine with Dems running on slightly moderate positions, if they need to, and then passing more progressive policies once in office.  It worked pretty well for Biden who ran as a fairly moderate Dem who could reach across the aisle etc., but ended up being one of our most progressive Presidents when you look at all he actually accomplished and prioritized.

  81. 81.

    Captain C

    @Baud: “Ya know, the chicken parmesan seems OK, but how is the shit-topped tire rims and anthrax prepared?  Is there a good side dish with it?  Can I get it with extra glass shards?”

  83. 83.

    HumboldtBlue

    GRESHAM, Ore. — The Gresham-Barlow School District has announced it will open a center to provide free medical, behavioral health, and dental services for all students in the district.

    The center, located at 1133 N. Main St. across the street from Gresham High School, will open on October 8.

    Wallace, a federally qualified health provider, will administer these services. The district says the healthcare will be student-centered and is designed to meet the unique developmental needs of the community’s students.

    The center features three exam rooms to provide primary care, vaccinations, health screenings, sports physicals, and, eventually, dental care. Students can access mental health services in the center’s behavioral health room.

    3-5 staff members will work a rotating schedule. Roles include medical provider, behavioral health provider, medical assistant, receptionist/scheduler, and clinic manager. Dental staff (hygienist, dental assistant) will be added later in the year.

  85. 85.

    Captain C

    @eclare:

    I’m getting images of that smarmy boss from Office Space.  But with infinitely more evil.

    And at least 3 large extra helpings of sadism.

  87. 87.

    Baud

    @HumboldtBlue:

    You left out the kicker.

    The Gresham-Barlow School District says it has been working to establish a student health center for many years, with the efforts culminating in a new facility funded by the American Recovery from Pandemic Act (ARPA) and state lawmakers

     
    ETA: They might have gotten the name wrong, but I think this is the Biden Rescue plan.

  89. 89.

    Edmund Dantes

    Vance is the scary version of Trump but luckily is missing trumps “charisma”.

    the thing we have to fear is the person that comes along that believes what Vance does but has the “charisma” of Trump.

    The media will fawn over someone that can lie well cause to them it’s all a “game” and believe they will be safe.

  90. 90.

    Ruckus

    @Steve LaBonne:

    I believe that while he understands that he needs votes to get into office and he needs money to get those votes and people like Thiel want him in office so he will do everything for him and nothing against him and is therefore a “friend” of jdv’s.

    jdv is in this for one person and one person only – jdv. He doesn’t give one, let alone 2 shits about anyone else on the planet. Some see ultimate money as their goal, some see being leader of a large,  wealthy and powerful country as a better goal. For them it is a way to get what they want without having to do more than BS their way into power. That feeds their ego far more than spending time (and money) to get there. jdv is that kind of guy. He wears his ego on the outside, and doesn’t have to have a huge oversized wallet to get there. He just has to convince people that his is the best way, that he’s one of them. His ego, mind and voice gives him that. They give him the money and likely their votes to get there.

  92. 92.

    Betty Cracker

    Marco Rubio visited the western part of my county to survey the hurricane damage today. If I had known in advance, I would have showed up to heckle the fucker. Oh well.

  93. 93.

    kwAwk

    @lamh47: This is stuff I was thinking in real time as the debate was going on.  And I’m not the nominee for President or Vice President of a major political party.

  94. 94.

    kalakal

    @Emily B.:

    Vance gave off vibes of the guy from headquarters who comes in to lay you off.

    I’m getting the vibes of the guy from headquarters who accompanies Ripley and the marines in Aliens

  96. 96.

    artem1s

    They’re an awful, ugly power couple and we’ll unfortunately be hearing more from them.

    Remember back in 2017 when we all said ‘thank the FSM this orange asshole is incompetent and stupid?” How fortunate the country was that everything he touches dies, and everyone who runs in his circle is ruined, so he can’t do THAT much damage? Well, JV is the ‘smarter, more competent’ asshole we were all afraid of. He’s basically mini Trump circa 1990 and has his whole life ahead of him to reek havoc on our democracy. Don’t assume losing this election will ruin him. He’s not like the rest of the sycophants. He’s probably already got his eye on Mitch’s Senate Minority/Majority position. He’s knows where the money and power is and Ohioans won’t be able to vote him out of office any time soon. He’s exactly what the GOP wants in a leader – only less old, stupid, psychotic and medicated.

  98. 98.

    Baud

    @Baud:

    Yes

    American Rescue Plan Act

    The City of Gresham received $25.5 million through the American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA).

     

    What is the American Rescue Plan Act?

    The purpose of this $1.9 trillion federal stimulus bill is to help communities respond to and recover from the COVID-19 pandemic. State and local governments receive money directly to fix budget shortfalls and invest in their communities.

  99. 99.

    SatanicPanic

    Great point that these media types are often awkward dorks. If it’s true the Ryan Liza was trying to blackmail Olivia Nuzzi into staying with him, that’s pathetic. Misogynist dweeb behavior.

  100. 100.

    kwAwk

    @Steve LaBonne: The quickest way to lose a war is to underestimate your opponent.

    The way to win a war is to conduct an honest assessment of your opponents strengths and weakness and develop strategies that combat your opponents strengths and take advantage of their weaknesses.

    The biggest weakness of people on the left is the need to knee jerk to the arrogant position that everyone who disagrees with them is stupid.

    Trump has had the success and staying power because he has some pretty big strengths not because everybody who votes for him is stupid.

  101. 101.

    SatanicPanic

    @artem1s:

    He’s exactly what the GOP wants in a leader – only less old, stupid, psychotic and medicated.

    i dunno, I think the GOP wants those things too.

  102. 102.

    Matt McIrvin

    @kalakal: “You know, Burke, I don’t know which species is worse. You don’t see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage.”

  104. 104.

    TBone

    @Jeffg166: I’d call/contact the Secretary of State and the Mayor and the Philadelphia Inquirer and anyone else I could think of to shout my outrage about that.  But this is why I drive to the County office and hand in my mail ballot in person.  I don’t trust the mail carrier with it.

  107. 107.

    Eric

    I’m glad you bought up Vance’s wife. There seems to be a tendency for some on the left to fantasize and imagine these women (like Melania) are going to leave their husbands because of how gross their actions and statements are, but they’re just as disgusting and conniving as their husbands are.

  109. 109.

    kwAwk

    @lamh47: The biggest flaw of people on the left that is exploited to perfection by people on the right is knee jerk reflex need on the left to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is stupid.

  110. 110.

    Baud

    @kwAwk:

    It’s not the biggest flaw, but you’re correct that the left is shy about calling certain people immoral and evil and will often substitute stupid for it.

  113. 113.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @hells littlest angel: The audience Walz was trying to reach is not Balloon Juice.  We don’t need to be persuaded.  We don’t need to be catered to.  We are already on side.  We should be resignations seeing messages that don’t appeal to us a lot for the rest of the election season.

  114. 114.

    kwAwk

    @Baud: Stupid, immoral and evil are all just ad hominem attacks.

    There are certain times when the right is bringing points that do have some validity and the left is inclined to just name call.

    Example?  Women fear having trans-women in their restrooms for the same reason trans-women fear using men’s restrooms.

    Trans-women in sports is fine if you don’t really care about sports.  If you don’t think sports value or meaning.  But if you do think sports have meaning then having trans-women in sports distorts the playing field and basic fairness.

    A trans-woman taking estrogen doesn’t completely outdo a million years of evolution that makes men bigger and stronger than women.

  116. 116.

    Captain C

    Looks like JK Rowling has made an appearance in this thread.  At least Jake Tapper had the decency to use his own name back when.

  120. 120.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @kwAwk: Haven’t seen you around since you last saw a chance to sow discord following the Biden debate.  Interesting that the VP debate brought out an OG Balloon Juice troll.  Vance must have really done poorly in post-debate reviews.  Good to know.

  122. 122.

    TBone

    @eclare: receiving a mail ballot in PA in a residential mailbox is not an issue (that I know of, yet) since just about everyone who votes by mail knows when the ballots have gone out and when to expect one.  But getting that correctly executed, signed, and dated ballot back to the poll workers counting said ballots is penultimate and the fact that a Philly mailperson or persons is returning them to the sender is very alarming.

  123. 123.

    Spanky

    @Baud:

    @Kay:

    You did better than I would have. Sometime I dislike my misanthropy and I wish I could be more productive

    I have made piece with my misanthropy and am happy to just be the one to fork over $$ so long as they don’t want me engaging with morons.

  124. 124.

    Falling Diphthong

    @TBone: I agree here. Reasonable goals for the debate would include making Donald mad and so encouraging him to have yet another on camera meltdown, or to sow even more division with Vance.

  126. 126.

    Belafon

    @kwAwk: Wow. Yeah, no, you’re stupid. You can’t even get the biology correct. You should probably actually get to know a few transwoman who have been on hormones for years and some science before you make this comment again.

  128. 128.

    kwAwk

    @Omnes Omnibus: Quite the opposite my friend.  Vance did a really good job in the debate last night.   That’s what got me out here today.

    Did you actually watch it?

  129. 129.

    Nukular Biskits

    @kwAwk:

    Stupid, immoral and evil are all just ad hominem attacks.

    Not necessarily.

    If someone does something demonstrably stupid, then, yes, they were stupid for doing it.

    Ditto for immoral and evil.

    Likewise, by definition someone lying makes them a liar.  That’s not an ad hominem.

    Context is important. To categorically dismiss all such claims as personal attacks is to, in effect, endorse the behavior (and the person) to which they were directed.

  132. 132.

    Belafon

    I would love to hear (well, ok, maybe not) kwAwk’s rationale for why trans-women win so infrequently if they are stronger and faster than cis-women.

  133. 133.

    LuigiDaMan

    Unfortunately, I will hear a lot about them because I live in Ohio and the idiots voted this bum in.

  135. 135.

    narya

    @HumboldtBlue: @Baud: Also: likely some New Access Point funding and/or some School-Based Health Center funding, which are two pieces of FQHC funding that are enabled by new funds. I don’t remember whether there was additional funding for the Bureau of Primary Health Care in any of the Biden funds, but there likely was.

  136. 136.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Kay: but these people exist and they are the “undecideds”  just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know… morons.

    FTFY

    And thanks for putting in all the hard work of canvassing. I’d be in jail right now if I tried that. So, postcard writing for me!

  137. 137.

    Paul W.

    I’m part of a minority that is more turned off by the non-answers Vance is telling (no matter what the confidence or “technicalities” he spews, often themselves lies), but when he willingly provided the information that Ohio voted AGAINST removing abortion after saying he would “respect votes” my jaw hit the floor.

    He’s giving away the game! You keep taking the test, and keep having votes or restructuring the court or having a legislature try and overrule a referendum until the voters acquiesce to OUR WILL. You do not get abortion, you do not get care for mothers, you will vote for female servitude or we will force you to.

    He said it outloud, and while the punditry and many men will miss that fact that the will of the voters is ignored, I don’t think the women will except those living in willful ignorance.

  138. 138.

    kwAwk

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’m not transphobic my friend.  That is just another ad hominem attack.

    I believe that trans people should be treated with respect and have equal access to housing, jobs, and be treated as the gender they choose to identify with in society.

    But I would also say that if they indeed to have a medical condition that causes them to feel internally, psychologically a different gender than their biological sex, that that medical condition may prevent them from participating in athletic activities that are coordinated by biological sex.

    Peter Dinklage has a medical condition that would prohibit him from ever playing in the NBA.  He could be a great athlete as far as I know.  On the flip side Shaq also has biological factors that would seem to prohibit him from ever becoming a ballet dancer.  Life isn’t always entirely fair.

    As far as the restroom thing goes with Trans people, you’re not even willing to have the conversation about why it is making people uncomfortable.

  139. 139.

    scribbler

    @kwAwk:  You’re full of shit.  I’m a woman and I’m not afraid of having trans women use a women’s restroom.  Don’t speak for me and try to off-load your shitty beliefs onto me.

  140. 140.

    Kay

    @Chief Oshkosh:

    I know her bf (of 20 years) slightly so she may have been more comfortable expounding on her views with me. I think some of these people are just lonely. They seem like they don’t get out enough.

  142. 142.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Chief Oshkosh: I have told my local people that I don’t want to persuasive canvassing with undecideds.  I happily am doing GOTV canvassing, but the temptation to ask “WTF is wrong with you?” of undecided voters is not good for my blood pressure.

  143. 143.

    Steve LaBonne

    @kwAwk: “As far as the Black people in public swimming pools issue is concerned, you’re not even willing to have the conversation about why it makes people uncomfortable.” – Assholes like this in the 1960s.

  147. 147.

    lamh47

    @salstrange

    Pay attention to the Venn diagram of (1) people who think Vance did well and (2) those who wet the bed over Biden seeming “old” and then promptly forgot any concern about the age of presidential candidates as soon as Biden left the race.
    https://x.com/salstrange/status/1841432548968169539

    Sure does sound like a certain troll doesnt’ it

  149. 149.

    Kay

    Set of strong national polls for Harris today – +4, +5 and with her at 49,50. I feel like she’s firming this up and he’s going to have trouble getting ahead at this point. The truth is if you watch this for a long time and one person consistently has 49 or 50 and the other person is 2 or more points back the person at 49 0r 50 almost always wins. Clinton is the counter example so it can happen but it mostly doesn’t happen. 49 or 50 is the key though.

  155. 155.

    Spanky

    I’m so old I remember when this post was about the Vances, and I agree that we’re going to be seeing the both of them for some time to come, unless someone cones up with a baby-eating video, or equivalent. Maybe there’s  a Vance dossier out there somewhere

    ETA a baby-eating video starring JV or Usha, of course.

    Or, maybe one of their kids munching on a classmate. I’m not particular.

  156. 156.

    Madeleine

    @Steve LaBonne: Funny thing. Just before I read your comment I’d been musing about how Vance became the VP choice. And I realized that it was through Eric and Don, jr. Easy for him to appeal to them. He scares me.

  158. 158.

    BR

    @Kay: ​

    I don’t have the data — wasn’t there a much higher than normal third party vote even in the polls in 2016, so Clinton never got to 49 or 50?

  162. 162.

    Citizen Alan

    @Eric: I said it before but I’ll say it again for those in the back. Conservatives are the worst, but conservative women are the worst of the worst. Bitter poisonous creatures who regret all their life choices and who demand to take away the choices of all other women so that everyone else can be as miserable as them. There are male Republican office holders who manage to not project an attitude of cruel hatred into every public appearance, but I can’t think of any female Republicans I’d say that about. Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Marsha Blackburn. Virginia Foxx. Laura Ingraham. Every woman associated with the Trump family (with the possible exception of Tiffany). They all just radiate a Sauron-like hatred for all that exists.

  165. 165.

    Citizen Alan

    @Baud: Agreed. To me, this ties in with the constant woeful refrain that rural Republicans in the Heartland are “voting against their own interests.” It mistakenly and naively assumes that “white supremacy and patriarchy” aren’t “interests” to such people.

  166. 166.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Eric: Some people are still mad that HRC didn’t divorce Bill.  The dynamics between couples are ineffable.

  167. 167.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Chris: I don’t think Cole will go there with our transphobic sea lion friend but the policy would allow for it. The rest of us can go ahead and pie it when we’re done playing with it.

  168. 168.

    Captain C

    @Spanky:

    a baby-eating video starring JV or Usha, of course.

    JV:  “Hey Usha, don’t put any of them spicy Indian spices on the baby.  You know I can’t handle that sort of thing.”

  172. 172.

    TBone

    @Citizen Alan: I just took care of our Rumpy neighbors’ puppy (we’ve been doing it for several weeks now) while they are at work because the devoutly rethuglican wife is so charming, so fun to be around, so always positive, so upbeat and joyful, that I cannot possibly unfriend her because she adds so much to my life.  She is the opposite of everything you posted BUT I am aware that she is an outlier – maybe that’s why we get along, I’m an outlier too most of the time.  She left us a Dunkin Donuts gift card today despite us telling her this is a win-win for hubby and I and it’s a healthy responsibility which requires no recompense (hubby is a dog person and we have cats.  Hubby adores the cats, but adding daily dog time to our lives is a cherry on top).  She may drop a one-liner here and there, infrequently, but never pushes it and always listens to my “feedback” (push back) without complaint.

    ETA But conservative women politicians DO fit the description.

    ETA #2 I don’t know how or why, can’t even fathom, she stays married to her husband though.  Ew.

  175. 175.

    Citizen Alan

    @kwAwk: Has it occurred to you that constantly referring to someone as “my friend” even after they’ve made it clear that they find your comments insulting and offensive is condescending and just another form of trolling? If it has, is that why you persist in doing it?

  178. 178.

    kalakal

    The best description I’ve seen of Vance’s vibe last night that I’ve seen*

    He looked like he sells reverse mortgages to widows for a living

    *can’t remember where

  180. 180.

    brantl

    @hrprogressive: I don’t really think he does; he makes the “concerned” face a lot, he doesn’t do the “angry” face nearly as well as Stumpy does, and the MAGATs really want the “angry” face. Vance looks like a used car salesman doing Halloween dress-up, the MAGAT’s want the Wicked Witch of the West, FOR REALS.

  181. 181.

    p.a.

    The tell, for the trolls among us, is their targets.  We all know the people who get spitting mad about some poor saps who try to game the various welfare programs for a few extra shekels a month, and want them hanged, while the Florida US Senator Medicare/Medicaid fraudster of, what hundreds of millions of dollars, gets *crickets*.   Or the national pols passing laws & setting rules that allow their financiers to impoverish towns or whole regions, or poison the environment.  *crickets*
    So somebody feels uncomfortable in a toilet (maybe keep your eyes to yourself and do what you’re there for?) and the brave lefty mcleftist troll is all “what’s the left doing about this?” diversion while the christianist party is taking a jackhammer to the post New Deal, post Civil Rights hardfought progress.

  183. 183.

    HumboldtBlue

    In another blow to reproductive healthcare freedom in Republican states, Louisiana has reclassified the abortion drugs mifepristone and misoprostol as schedule IV controlled substances, which come with prison terms of up to five years for those caught in possession without a prescription.

    Schedule IV is the classification typically given to highly addictive prescription drugs like Xanax or Ambien. Doctors warn that removing ready access to these drugs in hospitals and clinics can have dire health consequences for many women, as they are frequently used in potential emergency situations like miscarriage treatment.

    Misoprostol, which is commonly used to treat hemorrhaging, must now be kept out of patient’s rooms and locked away in secure areas due to the new classification. This can cause dangerous delays in getting treatment to someone who is actively bleeding out.

    “These medications are being placed on this list due to a perceived moral implication,” said Dr. Greg Caudill, former president of the Louisiana Society of Addiction Medicine, acknowledging there is no need to classify abortion pills as addictive substances. Caudill said delays in dispensing these medications “could result in death in certain situations.”

  185. 185.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus: Cacti is gone.  Eversor is gone.

    With our new comment policy, if it’s clear that if your intent is to disrupt, you can be banned without a bunch of steps if Cole thinks it’s warranted.

  187. 187.

    kwAwk

    @Citizen Alan: Because he isn’t exactly going out of his way to have a polite and respectful conversation with me either.

    He keeps name calling and I keep saying my friend.  When he goes low, I go high.   Does that ring a bell?

  188. 188.

    WaterGirl

    This is in Cole’s lap now.  Until Cole decides on a path, comments are blocked.

    Let’s move on.  Hey, there’s a fresh thread.

  190. 190.

    kwAwk

    @Belafon: There is nothing transphobic about my statement.  If my statement expressed fear of another group, then the assertion of trans-women fearing using men’s restrooms exhibits the same phobia.

  191. 191.

    kwAwk

    When a Balloon-Juicer starts bringing up pie, it is a dead give away that they know they have nothing intellectual to say about a topic.

  193. 193.

    eclare

    @kwAwk:

    Speak for yourself.  I’ve gone to many restrooms with both men and women.  Absolutely no biggie. You are transphobic.  At least own up to it.

  195. 195.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    Back to Vance: anyone remember the story about Paul Reiser going to see Aliens with his mother, and his mom cheered when his character got eaten?

    It’s too bad he aged out of playing JD Vance, because, yeah. I want to see TFG die in prison, but eaten by alien bug monsters is just so perfect for the couch molester.

  196. 196.

    frosty

    @Betty Cracker: ​I’ve done my share of canvassing in the past, but I’m not good at it…

    Same here but here we go again. I keep hoping the next election won’t be more critical than the last and I can let it go, but no. That’s been the trend since I started in 2004. I’m weary of it.

    I’m not very good at persuasion; I prefer GOTV, talking just to Democrats and flushing voters on election day. This year I’m doing postcards too (CA-47 because I lived in Huntington Beach for a year).

  201. 201.

    frosty

    @Baud: @Nukular Biskits: A true undecided voter would sound like the one I met. Wouldn’t commit to voting for anyone when I was at the door. Took the lit I offered and said “I’ll put it on the pile and go through everything just before the election and make up my mind.”

    Then we commiserated about what a pile of mailers and flood of TV ads we get in a swing state.

  202. 202.

    brantl

    @kwAwk: “For all of his faults, one thing that Trump is actually good at is responding to what his opponent actually says in real time.” He only looks to be responding when he pivots to something else, and then lies about that, much like Bill O’Lielly.

  203. 203.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @kwAwk: Example?  Women fear having trans-women in their restrooms for the same reason trans-women fear using men’s restrooms.

    No one should be interacting with one another in public bathrooms, YMMV.

    Trans-women in sports is fine if you don’t really care about sports.  If you don’t think sports value or meaning.  But if you do think sports have meaning then having trans-women in sports distorts the playing field and basic fairness.

    They want to exclude children from sports across the nation and don’t trust professional sports organizations to get their own rules right.  This isn’t about fairness in elite competition, this is about inclusion in school, where it seriously matters.

  204. 204.

    Jinchi

    I see a lot of comments about how she’s going to divorce him because folks have a hard time imagining that a woman would put up with a guy like him.

    Folks should know better, Melania exists.

    She was given benefit of the doubt, because she never liked speaking publicly and that allowed everyone to project their own views onto her.
    Until she showed up to visit migrant children who were separated from their families, wearing an “I Really Don’t Care Do U” designer jacket.​

  205. 205.

    Captain C

    @WaterGirl:

    Eversor

    Always seemed like the kind of guy who sidles up to you at a bar and starts telling you how they were a CIA killer and former college football star who became a multi-millionaire in some shady, obscure business, but they’re drinking in this shitty dive bar because reasons.

  209. 209.

    Jinchi

    @Betty Cracker: The dumbest people in the country will decide this election.

    I think people misunderstand who “undecided voters” are.

    They’re usually framed as a group that can’t see the difference between, say, Trump vs Harris, and those are the ones that the press focuses on.

    But most are people who are undecided about whether to vote or not. The most obvious, this year, are Muslims traumatized by the war in Gaza.

    Others just don’t believe their vote will make a difference – something the press reinforces every four years by literally writing that only voters in a few swing states matter at all.

    You can work with those groups. It’s not a clueless voter problem, it’s a turnout problem.

  211. 211.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @kwAwk: Example?  Women fear having trans-women in their restrooms for the same reason trans-women fear using men’s restrooms.

    No one should be interacting with one another in bathrooms.  YMMV.

    Trans-women in sports is fine if you don’t really care about sports.  If you don’t think sports value or meaning.  But if you do think sports have meaning then having trans-women in sports distorts the playing field and basic fairness.

    They’re demonizing a small but significant portion of our population in order to exclude them. Trans women aren’t exactly at the top of women’s sports.  There are few examples of where this “principle” of separating the genders in sports is in dispute.

    The real goal is to exclude, primarily trans children.  These are individuals playing at the level where participation and camaraderie matter more. As far as elite competitive sports, I trust the governing bodies at least somewhat more than Republican politicians.

  212. 212.

    StringOnAStick

    @kwAwk: Have you ever had to perform in front of an audience of any kind, or even something as anodyne as being on an HOA board in the middle of some community money conflict with angry people expressing angry opinions and questioning your ethics or the plan agreed to by 95% of the community?  Exactly how fast would you think on your feet with a motivated smarmy liar trying to tear you down and poke any possible hole in any statement?  Not well I expect, but hey, everyone’s an expert on the internet.

  214. 214.

    The Audacity of Krope

    Every time I try to respond to the individual denigrating trans folk in this thread, I get booted to moderation.

  219. 219.

    Steve LaBonne

    @Sister Golden Bear: With “ordinary” trolls I think it’s best to commence ignoring right away or after mocking them once, but sicko hate-filled trolls should definitely get some pushback before being ignored. Hate shouldn’t go unchallenged.

  221. 221.

    Repatriated.

    @Paul W.: He said it outloud, and while the punditry and many men will miss that fact that the will of the voters is ignored, I don’t think the women will except those living in willful ignorance.

    The thing that gets elided here is that when conservatives talk about having “states” decide, they aren’t talking about the voters in the states.

    To them, “states” are the governments of those states, as though they have legtimate power aside from what their citizens grant them. This is where gerrymandering and voter supression come in — there is no reason to ensure the actual will of the voters is reflected in state government, because the state government is separate from and has authority over its citizens.

    It’s a feudal mentality.

  222. 222.

    Jeffg166

    @TBone:

    I talked to the County Board of Elections. The ballots are not to be mailed. They are to be put in drop boxes. I have heard nothing about this. Now I have to go to a satellite office to get a new outside mailing envelope with no postal cancellation marks on it. Mine was canceled. Then I have to sign and dated again and put it into the dropbox at that location.

    This is going to cause a major mess in Philadelphia.

  223. 223.

    Scout211

    I haven’t read all the comments yet but am I the only one who is not accepting Nuzzi’s accusations as facts? All three of these players are sleezy, narcissistic scum and users so I am not ready to accept that her playing the victim right now is anything other than a narcissistic move to manipulate public opinion.

    OTOH, rooting for injuries and waiting for the next episode in the series.  It could be lit!

  224. 224.

    E.

    @Kay: In my considerable canvassing experience the best results in this instance come from being combative. Look them straight in the eye, interrupt them if necessary, and start your sentence with the word “Listen.” Then give them a barrage of reasons to vote dem. Point your finger. Own them right back, end gently, maybe with something like “I know you are a voter because you are on my list” and bid them goodbye. You get out of there, you mess with their notions about weak dems, you shake their confidence and mostly you get to leave on your own terms. Easier if you’re a man obvs.

  227. 227.

    rikyrah

    @3Sice:

    He will shoot the Trump family into the sun the moment the opportunity arises.

    He is the inside man for the Thiel/Musk leveraged buyout of the GOP.

     

    Yell it for the people in the bleachers.

    This is absolutely the point of him.

  230. 230.

    Eolirin

    @WaterGirl: I feel like this is getting very close to crossing the line we changed the commenting policy to address. 

    Like, if we swapped out transwoman with any other minority group, it would have unambiguously crossed it.

    Personally, being nonbinary, that there’s even that ambiguity about it bothers me, but I recognize the need to be a little more cautious about not stomping on people who are acting in good faith, but are deeply ignorant, when the bigotry is more socially acceptable. 

    I’m far less certain that kwAwk is actually acting in good faith given prior behaviors though.

  231. 231.

    Eolirin

    @Jeffg166: Jfc. We do not need shit fucking with the election in PA, especially when curing ballots due to those kinds of errors can be made difficult.

  232. 232.

    Quiltingfool

    @kwAwk: What?  I don’t fear trans women in a woman’s bathroom.

    You do know that trans women/men  aren’t a new thing, right?  I’ve been using public restrooms for the last 50 years; there could have been a trans woman in a public restroom with me at any time and I probably wouldn’t have noticed.  You mind your business.

    Oh, as for a history note, there were women WHO DRESSED LIKE MEN who fought during the Civil War.  After the war, I suspect some women didn’t switch their clothing, and continued to live “as a man.”  Because it felt right.

    You people make me so tired.

  233. 233.

    Princess

    @Nukular Biskits: Kay’s undecided sounds to me like a white woman married to a Republican who usually votes how her husband does and can’t quite figure out how to avoid voting Trump. Third party maybe the best she can do. Some small percentage of the too far left for Kamala are the same way — they can’t break with their parents so much as to vote Democratic but they can vote third party.  I’m thinking of specific people I know in both cases. As long as husband/parents and wife/children can agree that however much they disagree, they agree on hating Democrats, family peace is preserved.

  235. 235.

    J

    @Chris:  This seems right to me, as the first member of my family to have a university education, who was fortunate to be an undergraduate at Yale, a graduate student at Princeton, and a young post Ph.D. visitor at Cambridge (UK). I didn’t feel excluded at any of these places and made friends at all of them–though it was clear to me that most of my fellow students came from more privileged backgrounds than I did. I suspect JDV has a, relentlessly cultivated, taste for resentment.

  237. 237.

    Chris

    @J:

    There’s one particular story from JD Vance that made me immediately call bullshit: the terror of being ostracized because he didn’t know which fork to use.  I’m sorry, bullshit.  This is not a thing that ever happened to you.  It’s a stock cliché (at this point, a stock parody) of upper-class gatekeeping, rooted in stereotypes over fifty years old, and regurgitated by someone who saw them on Downton Abbey or something similar.  It’s barely less implausible or anachronistic than if he’d said “and then the mean Ivy Leaguers punished me for killing a deer in the king’s forest!”

    Which tells you everything you need to know about the plausibility of the book.

  238. 238.

    TerryC

    As a legitimate Appalachian, my variety is known as “Hoopie,” I have a similar trajectory to Vance’s but a generation earlier. I was poorly educated and from a black-dirt poor family, many of whom did not have indoor plumbing. No one was the kind of asshole Vance created in his whining origin story.

    Barely made it out of high school despite having the highest SATs in the area. Flunked out of college in 1.5 years. Excelled in the military for 4.5 years including 1.5 with special forces. Managed 181 hours of 4.0 in two years at the same college I flunked out of.

    Got free rides offered at grad school for Harvard, Yale, Michigan, etc. and went ABD in Anthro and then did Juris Doctor at Michigan Law.

    I love dogs and cats and women!

  241. 241.

    TBone

    @Jeffg166: I’m glad I checked back here although you prolly won’t see it.  That answer you received is no doubt from a staffer, and I hope you got their full name.  It sounds like SABOTAGE to me.  Again, I’d be shouting about this from the rooftops.  Now I’m gonna go look up the actual rules for returning mail ballots in Philly.  Feels like that’s a very wrong answer given in bad faith.

    You or your agent can submit your ballot in the mail, in person at the County Board of Elections Office, or using an official drop box. Enter your address in the drop box locator app to find the one closest to you!

    https://vote.phila.gov/voting/vote-by-mail/vote-by-mail/

    YOU WERE SABOTAGED

    Ugh I should have done this yesterday but I was feeling very ill and had a narrow bandwidth of energy to spend.

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