Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

If you can’t control your emotions, someone else will.

Radicalized white males who support Trump are pitching a tent in the abyss.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Cancel the cowardly Times and Post and set up an equivalent monthly donation to ProPublica.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Our messy unity will be our strength.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. do not touch it.”

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

Weird. Rome has an American Pope and America has a Russian President.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Second rate reporter says what?

President Musk and Trump are both poorly raised, coddled 8 year old boys.

Sadly, media malpractice has become standard practice.

We can show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

You are here: Home / Elections 2024 / Saturday Night Slap-Fights Open Thread: It’s A Hard Knock Life

Saturday Night Slap-Fights Open Thread: It’s A Hard Knock Life

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Captain Obvious strikes again!


ETA: Bobo Brooks, come on down…
Saturday Night Slap-Fights Open Thread: It's A Hard Knock Life

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122Comments

  1. 1.

    Ken

    XKCD had a perfect summary of the root cause of these men’s problem. Published in March, 2012.

    EDIT: Catching up on today’s threads, I think the Tim Walz post is related — his incredible “magic trick” is being nice to people.

  3. 3.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Ken:

    I thought it was incredibly mean-spirited and depressing, saying these men are all incapable of changing

  4. 4.

    Jay

    Unfortunately, I had a couple of years recently of working with mostly young, straight while males, not college or Uni educated. The “incels” amongst them were  whiny entitled assholes. Gary, a really nice guy, a bit on the spectrum, well, his GF was a Richards Model. I mean drop dead beautiful, smart, kind and that was how she made her living.

    So now the “pundits” want MVP and the Democratic Party to fix the young white male asshole problem?

  7. 7.

    Chet Murthy

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I would say that that’s the point of the cartoon.  I mean, she’s negging him right back, yes?  She can’t neg him by, y’know, giving him positive “attaboy” feelgood vibes — that’s not negging, is it?  To properly neg, you have to be meanspirited and depressing, right?  I mean, that’s the entire point, as explained by our haircut-boy in the second frame, eh?

  10. 10.

    Atrele

    @Ken: oh I remember that thread. Made me need a spray of Loser-B-Gone.

     

    Way too many assholes invested in that shit.

  13. 13.

    Jess

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): It’s difficult to establish the line between “incapable” and “unwilling,” but in the end it only matters to the person not changing. The rest of us don’t really care. We just don’t want to deal with it.

  14. 14.

    Jay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    I thought the cartoon was fine and on point. I did not find it mean at all.

    It reminds me of a tweet and response I have seen online:

    Blue Check PUA “Influencer”:

    “I have met dozens of Feminist,  but never a happy Feminist”,

    1ST Response:

    “The one thing all those meetings have in common, is you.”

  16. 16.

    Atrele

    @Jay: I guaran-fickin-tee you that they’re still seething about how the “retard” landed a model but these really “nice” guys have to sneak up on their hand.

     

     

    @Jay:

  17. 17.

    Chris

    @Chet Murthy:

    The more supportive version:

    “Hey! Wanna see me pick up chicks?”

    “You don’t want to pick up chicks.”

    “I don’t want to pick up chicks.”

    “You want to go home and rethink your life.”

    “I want to go home and rethink my life.”

  18. 18.

    Shalimar

    Among the many things we learned during the George W. Bush administration,  it’s that the top of Republican politics is awash in closeted gay men.  There are thousands of them throughout the country.  But sure, let’s identify Democrats with gay even when they’re straight.

  20. 20.

    Betsy

    I canvassed today! Knocked and talked to Dem leaning voters to encourage early voting and help them know where and when to vote.

    I think the app we used said we talked to 28 households and 49 voters.

    We were in a very poor area, a rural neighborhood of very modest trailers and manufactured homes.  Lots of challenges for the residents, obvious difficulties due to money and other constraints.

    Lots of early voting, though.

  23. 23.

    Jay

    @Mr. Bemused Senior:

    Yes the “pundit class” believes that Democracy will fall because the Government won’t provide “incels” with Trad Wives and Sex Slaves.

    Project 2025 and Project 47 plan to address that.

    Why don’t the Democratic Party have a similar platform?

  25. 25.

    RevRick

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): In days of yore, because they were financially dependent upon men, many married women had to wait until their husbands had a heart attack before they, their husbands, started reevaluating their relationships.

    I think about my own parents and often wonder, “why the hell did they ever get married?” I know the practical reason: mom was four months pregnant with my older brother. And having learned family systems theory, I understand the power of their mutual dysfunctions. But given my decades long struggle with depression and a profound sense of unworthiness, it’s taken me a long, hard road to get to where I am today. I nearly killed my self with people pleasing.
    I feel a deep sadness over the struggles of many young men, but I know its source: the screwed up ideology of white male supremacy. It leads all too many young black men to disvalue the lives of other black men and think nothing of gunning them down. And it leads white boys growing up believing they always must be the boss and be in control and have all the answers. What they believe is strength is actually a fragility that often manifests as anger and resentment.

    Trump taps into that wellspring of fragility. He is its embodiment.

  28. 28.

    Ksmiami

    @Scout211: I hate Trump, his followers and his enablers. If I was powerful, I’d fucking drop them all into a desert and wall them off. A fucking menace to all of us, to civic society etc.

  29. 29.

    hrprogressive

    Phil LaBonte could have cemented his legacy as a heavy metal legend with All That Remains, but in 2010/2012 decided to make shitty Tea Party anthems and I’ve since disregarded everything he’s ever said thereafter.

    Shame. Their earlier work still holds up well.

  30. 30.

    Ken

    @RevRick: because they were financially dependent upon men, many married women had to wait until their husbands had a heart attack

    Hmm. It casts those 1950s recipe cards — the ones with ingredient lists that start “three cans Spam, two cups mayonnaise, one pound grated cheddar” — in a new light.

  31. 31.

    Darkrose

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): As someone who’s been a lonely person with low self-esteem who couldn’t get a date, I would never take that to heart because a) I’m a woman, and I’ve been on the other side of the table and b) I’m not an asshole who thinks that being an asshole is the best way to attract someone.

    I’m sorry, but if you come up to a woman and insult her because you’ve absorbed the messages from horrible misogynists that women really want to be belittled and harassed, I have zero sympathy for you. Take that entitled bullshit somewhere else.

  32. 32.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Jay:

    They don’t have to necessarily be actual incels or listening to PUA for “advice”, man. Just people who don’t have their life figured out yet, who have trouble making meaningful connections with others for whatever reason

  33. 33.

    Chris

    @Jess:

    The problem with our society is that thanks to conservatives, those who aren’t incapable of changing can still largely be unwilling to change. There’s an entire support network made up of roughly half the country to pat them on the back and explain to them that nothing is their fault, it’s society that’s wrong, and they can make their lives better by voting for people who promise to go and beat up everyone who doesn’t want to give them everything they want.

    I mean, when I had bad hygiene in middle school, people pointed it out to me, and I suppose some of them could’ve been nicer about it, but what I didn’t have was half the school taking a dramatic stand that actually, what I needed was less deodorant, in fact, nobody should wear deodorant, and when you think about it, deodorant is fascism and also communism! But based on not only the conservative response to Covid, but effectively every social controversy that even mildly challenges a conservative’s self-image, this is in fact exactly how they should have all reacted.

  35. 35.

    Mag

    There are broad stereotypes being thrown around here. My son is in his 20s, has a steady job, two college degrees, and involved with his community, and not only does he support Harris, but also voted for Biden back in 2020. He still cannot get dates or attention from women because he has autism and comes across as too “other” and weird to them. And really, all the “incel” stuff triggers him and causes depression for him. He is really, desperately lonely and has difficulties making friends regardless of gender.

  36. 36.

    Darkrose

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The guy in that comic is literally “negging” the woman: insulting and belittling her because he’s been told–by PUA’s–that women really respond to that. You seem to be saying that people–presumably women–are being mean for calling out that shit. Just…no.

  38. 38.

    Scout211

    @MP: Hey, at least he moved on from Palmer’s schlong.

    LOL

    The headline on HuffPost:

    TRUMP SCHWING STATE STRATEGY

  40. 40.

    Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    @Darkrose:

    I don’t support that behavior (negging, etc), I just want to make that clear. TBH, I don’t really know what I’m saying atm. Maybe I was taking it too seriously

  42. 42.

    Chet Murthy

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I will note that there is an entire genre of self-help advice for men to teach them to prey on the female counterparts of these men you describe: women with low self-esteem who haven’t figured out the world yet.  To prey on them.  And there are countless social pressures to push girls and women to have lower self-esteem.

    I’m a guy, and it ain’t like I can claim to have it all figured out.  But even I can see that I had it much easier than the women I know.

    It’s a cartoon, making fun of PUAs.  Don’t read more into it than is already there.  And always remember Poe’s Law.  If some really mixed-up guy reads XKCD for the deep philosophy, that’s not on Randal whats-his-name (the author), but on that messed-up kid.  IT’s a -cartoon-.

  43. 43.

    Darkrose

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): They don’t have to necessarily be actual incels or listening to PUA for “advice”, man. Just people who don’t have their life figured out yet, who have trouble making meaningful connections with others for whatever reason

    …except that you’re talking about a specific comic where the first panel has the character saying “I’ve been learning tricks from pick-up artist forums.” That’s the entire point of the comic, but you’re trying to generalize it to “Oh, it’s unfair to people with low self-esteem.”

  44. 44.

    Trivia Man

    Prediction: Ex Pres convict will suspend all campaigning this week.

    Stated reason: I was poisoned by an assassination attempt!

    Real reason: shorter windows of coherence, not having fun at the rallies, tired

  46. 46.

    Eolirin

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): The character in question is, in a later strip, seen helping to dig a grave for the random passerby that she and her boyfriend murder for witnessing them saying sweet things to each other, with the alt text implying that they might have been saying the sweet things just to add to his mental torment before the murder.

    You are very much over thinking it.

  47. 47.

    Jay

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):

    . Just people who don’t have their life figured out yet,

    I am 63 years old and I don’t have my life figured out yet,

    who have trouble making meaningful connections with others for whatever reason

    I have only 4 close friends and a wife. Very few people “get me”.

    If you are an introvert, you will never have a “posse”

    Oh, buy the way, the PUA in the cartoon is “negging”.

    If you want a girlfriend learn how to actually like and respect women.

  48. 48.

    Ken

    @Trivia Man: I believe the official word from his campaign staff is “exhausted”, not “tired”. Also it’s not “windows of coherence”, it’s “weaving”.

  52. 52.

    Another Scott

    @RevRick:

    I feel a deep sadness over the struggles of many young men, but I know its source: the screwed up ideology of white male supremacy. It leads all too many young black men to disvalue the lives of other black men and think nothing of gunning them down. And it leads white boys growing up believing they always must be the boss and be in control and have all the answers. What they believe is strength is actually a fragility that often manifests as anger and resentment.

    Well said.

    Too many of our national stories – white men run America and God wants it that way, do well in sports because it’s important, you should marry your high-school sweetheart, do well in school and you’ll have no trouble getting a good job, hide your emotions, etc., etc., are toxic to normal kids if taken literally.

    I took a magnet school class on Humanities in high school along with my best friend. The class was taught by a couple of women who were excellent, and there were maybe a dozen students (around half male and half female). One of my joking/not-joking gripes in the class (which I really enjoyed) was complaining things were “unfair”.

    One day a guy whispered to us that he thought the girls in class were given preferential treatment.

    I kinda agreed, but didn’t think at the time that maybe they were treated better because they were more serious about the class and didn’t regularly complain that things were “unfair”. We guys were upset that our obvious brilliance wasn’t being rewarded as we thought (and were told) it should be.

    The Barbie movie was brilliant about this stuff. Toxic masculinity and the stupid old fables about how men are the strong natural leaders and women should know their place and all the rest isn’t just toxic for women, but for men too.

    It seems like younger folks I interact with at work have more of this stuff figured out than I did at their age. Maybe Drum is right and having less lead in their blood really does help!

    But it won’t help kids who are stuck in an environment of 1950s thinking and who aren’t able to break out of it and actually treat women, and everyone else they encounter, like equal human beings…

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  56. 56.

    Jay

    @Marmot:

    Canadian, fat fingers, no spell check and the window to edit closed before I noticed.

    Also why it’s buy in another comment when it should be by.

  57. 57.

    Chet Murthy

    @Another Scott: When I was in grad school (late 80s) at Cornell, I learned that when some of the Seven Sisters started admitting men, some researchers took the oppty to instrument lecture halls and classrooms with cameras and recording equipment, to measure student and teacher interactions.  They found that even a small percentage of males in a class caused the conversational dynamics to shift completely — so that men dominated conversations much, much  much more than would have been proportionate to their number.

    I remember reading a book by Deborah Tannen (maybe it was called You’re Not Listening?  I forget) about this subject, too.  Men don’t see that they’re monopolizing conversations, don’t see that they’re trampling on women speakers.  They just don’t see it, and hence, they don’t think they’re doing anything wrong.

    In both the above cases, these conclusions were backed-up with voluminous data, in the form of carefully-coded conversation analysis, e.g. of the form “speaker A spoke from time T1 to T2, was interrupted by speaker D, who spoke from T2 to T3, etc”.

  58. 58.

    mrmoshpotato

    @Trivia Man:

    when they say he “is” exhausted, what do they mean by “is”? 

    Sucked too much dictator ass today.  Tired his fat, orange, fascist ass out.

  61. 61.

    Jess

    @Chris: I think there’s always a full buffet of grievance networks (organized religions, for example) that people seek out when they don’t want to do an honest self-assessment and take responsibility for their own lives. Granted, it is true that there’s now a highly-funded and motivated propaganda machine in place to generate and exploit grievance, and it’s been supercharged by social media, but it’s not unique to the MAGA/Tea Party/Incel world or our society. We humans just have a hard time coming to terms with our general suckiness.

  62. 62.

    Marmot

    @Chet Murthy: I had this conversation with Ms. Marmot last night, oddly. I was never a person who spoke up in class, and so I’ve always felt this gender-based answer was a bit too pat. (And a lot “snails and puppy-dog tails.”)

    What happens when you exclude only douchebags?

  63. 63.

    Another Scott

    @Chet Murthy: Tannen’s “You Just Don’t Understand” was a real eye-opener for me.  I haven’t been able to make the lessons second-nature, but I try to remember them.

    Interesting stuff about the classes.  I hope it’s better now.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  66. 66.

    RevRick

    @MagdaInBlack: Thank you for the kind comment. Basically, I’m grappling with my own struggles to become more human. Back in my seminary days, I did a year long field work in Yale/New Haven hospital’s outpatient psychotherapy program. And what I learned, and needed to learn, was that those in the throes of schizophrenia and paranoia were human beings, not others from whom I could distance myself.
    It’s easy to throw bricks at others. It’s easy to distance ourselves from all those screwed up young men. But as the spiritual descendant of the New England Puritans, I keep going back to the charge that John Winthrop made to the people in his “City on the hill” speech: For this end, we must knit together in this work as one; we must hold each other in brotherly (sic) affection; we must be willing to rid ourselves of our excesses to supply other’s’ necessities; we must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other, make others’ conditions our own , and rejoice together,mourn together, labor and suffer together….”
    Judgment is easy. Understanding is hard.

  67. 67.

    Marmot

    @Chris:

    The problem with our society is that thanks to conservatives, those who aren’t incapable of changing can still largely be unwilling to change. There’s an entire support network made up of roughly half the country to pat them on the back and explain to them that nothing is their fault, it’s society that’s wrong, and they can make their lives better by voting for people who promise to go and beat up everyone who doesn’t want to give them everything they want.

    This is not the result of conservatism — it is conservatism.

  68. 68.

    The Audacity of Krope

    Male kindness > Male Excellence

    For any Hamiltons Cain reading this, that is what men should be modeling.

  69. 69.

    Jess

    @Marmot: Noting gender-based dynamics is not the same thing as saying “all men.” And it’s not just “douchebags” doing it. I was in my 50s before I ever had one man point out to another that I wasn’t finished with my point. It was an amazing experience. Most men don’t even notice when they or their buddies are cutting off, ignoring or talking over women. But they sure notice it when women push back and do the same to them, lemme tell ya…

  70. 70.

    Chet Murthy

    @Jess: This.  My memory is that it was an almost-universal thing that men cut off women, and did not restore speakership to women who they’d cut off (or who’d been cut off by others).  Women by contrast -did- restore speakership to others who’d been cut off.

  72. 72.

    NorthLeft

    Funny, that Brooks quote sounds very similar to something he said around fifteen years ago about African Americans. At the time I believe he suggested the problem was laziness and a severe lack of moral fibre.
    I’m “shocked” that this same advice does not apply to the white young men that he is lamenting.

  73. 73.

    MagdaInBlack

    @RevRick: After my husbands death I went on a quest I called “Wtf is this God thing anyway? Does anybody really know?”  (no)

    That led me away from what I call street level religious teaching like my catechism classes to thought like this.

    Again, thank you

    Eta: what a fascinating rabbit hole that quest has been =-)

  74. 74.

    Chet Murthy

    @Jess: My first girlfriend (grad student in psychology) gave me the book early in our relationship.  I read it.  I can’t say that I was much of a feminist at that time: I had decades of recovery from misogyny ahead of me.  But that book was a real eye-opener.  Esp. the conversion from “conversations” into timeline charts and quantitative measurements, that backed-up her findings.

  78. 78.

    SpaceUnit

    Okay, here’s my take.  Incels grew up in a social environment where boys were getting status by calling other boys sissies and faggots (apologies to everyone for using that word).  It made them think that femininity and masculinity were oppositional.  From then on they had to make it known that they are squarely on team P and engage in all sorts of performative masculinity in order to prove it.  It’s seriously warped and pathetic.

    Femininity and masculinity are complimentary.  A guy who figures that out early and allows himself to appreciate women and appeal to women will do very well in the dating world.

    I feel bad for incels, but they can all go blow Jordan Peterson.

  79. 79.

    Chet Murthy

    @Marmot: I’m a STEM guy.  When I saw this laid out quantitatively, it was pretty persuasive.  And the study I mentioned of the Seven Sisters: I remember specifically that the wife of a famous CS/math prof, Anil Nerode (I think it was her, might have been  somebody else) who was a prof at Geneva College just north of Ithaca, NY, was part of the team that instrumented Vassar College.  Same idea: quantitative measurements of everything.  And again, quite compelling data that was easy to see and understand.

    That Tannen book is really worth reading.

  82. 82.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @Mag: He still cannot get dates or attention from women because he has autism and comes across as too “other” and weird to them.

    I’ve been there. Not necessarily the women part, but I had a real hard time making friends in my teens and 20s.  The simple fact of the matter was that I’m on the spectrum, too, and  I didn’t know how to relate to others.

    Eventually I found a model that worked for me. I realized that my easiest interactions were and had always been with clients at work.  So I started bringing my “professional” habits into social scenarios. Smile, greet people, observe unmet needs.

    It was only a start. To this day I don’t have a good grasp of the flow of conversation. Sometimes I interrupt people but more often I let thoughts pass unsaid because I missed my window.  Growing ok with that has been work too. The men interrupting women aspect of this thread has interested me for that reason, too.

    I interrupt sometimes, I typically notice and immediately apologize/hush, unless I’m then urged to speak by the other individual. I’ve never noticed whether this has been a bigger problem with women, to be honest. But very often, too, I find myself shut out of conversations simply because I can’t grasp the dynamics.

    No conclusion based on any of that.  I thought maybe someone might find it interesting to chew over.

  83. 83.

    Jess

    @Marmot: I’m not quite sure what you mean here. Let me take a stab at clarifying how I interpret this argument, and forgive me if I’m stating the obvious or missing your point.

    When it’s observed that men tend to create X dynamic, while women tend to create Y, it’s more of a bell-curve shaped reality than a black-and-white dichotomy. For example, I’m an assertive, talkative, opinionated woman who is probably more likely than you (based on your description of yourself as the quiet type) to interrupt or talk over someone else and dominate a conversation. But in a room with a 50-50 gender divide, I’m usually the only woman, or one of just a few, to do this. There are usually at least three times as many men competing for attention, and usually more. There are also plenty of both men and women who don’t speak up. However, in a room with just women, there is a less competitive vibe, people interrupt less, and everyone is encouraged to speak up. I have to consciously rein in my competitive tendencies much more than when I’m conversing with men, and strive to be more collaborative and respectful of others. It sounds like Tannen’s data jives with my experience.

  84. 84.

    Jackie

    @WaterGirl:

    It’s just locker room talk.  Boys will be boys.

    It’d sure be nice if men could be men, and knock this shit down. I’m sooo tired of TCFG’s spiel and getting away with it.

  85. 85.

    Jess

    @SpaceUnit:

    Femininity and masculinity are complimentary.

    I would go further and argue that they have much more overlap than not. While it does seem that different hormones create different tendencies, in the end we’re all just humans, not separate species, or even two halves of a whole. I would picture us as almost completely overlapping circles in a  Venn diagram rather than a Yin Yang symbol.

  86. 86.

    Marmot

    @Chet Murthy: Cool. I’m also of the STEM persuasion, and this kind of evidence is much more important to me than raw assertion. (Also, my mom cannot stand to let me finish a sentence, so forgive me my skepticism!)

  89. 89.

    Marmot

    @Jess:

    There are usually at least three times as many men competing for attention, and usually more. There are also plenty of both men and women who don’t speak up. However, in a room with just women, there is a less competitive vibe, people interrupt less, and everyone is encouraged to speak up.

    I think we agree more than not. You’ll see the douchebags in that 3x of men competing. I suppose I’m saying I’d like these groups further subdivided by personality. It seems pretty coarsely defined.

  90. 90.

    Captain C

    @Quinerly:

    AP leads with:

    “Trump Kicks Off A Pennsylvania Rally By Talking About Arnold Palmer’s Genitalia.”

    “Trump praises Arnold Palmer’s inborn talents”. — the FTFNYT, probably

  92. 92.

    Chet Murthy

    @Marmot: Tannen’s book was published in 1990.  Surely there’s been a ton of work since then on this subject.  Might be worth doing a citation search forward from her book (as well as reading it).

  93. 93.

    Gretchen

    @Mag: that is really tough. I have a grandson who is on the spectrum. One item on his IEP was “friendship class”. I think he was paired with a sociable kid, and was offered some input on how to relate to people, since it didn’t come naturally to him. It really helped. I wonder if there is something similar for adults, or is a therapist specializing in autism could help him figure out some things he could improve in his interactions. Lots of young men realize that they need to improve in this area, but unfortunately turn to pick up artists who only make things worse for them. There must be some ethical people out there who can offer better suggestions.

    I hope things get better for him. There’s nothing worse than seeing our children’s pain.

  95. 95.

    Gretchen

    @The Audacity of Krope: Very interesting that you observed where things worked for you and put it into practice in other situations. Grandson’s friendship class convinced me that some social skills that don’t come naturally to someone can be taught, and having learned and practiced the taught skills, things go better for them.

  98. 98.

    MinuteMan

    @Jay: ​So now the “pundits” want MVP and the Democratic Party to fix the young white male asshole problem?

    No need to “fix” them: it’s unlikely that they’ll reproduce in the wild.

    But some folks do eventually get a clue as they age—one of the few good things about getting older.

  100. 100.

    wjca

    @MinuteMan: No need to “fix” them: it’s unlikely that they’ll reproduce in the wild.

    Aren’t you optimistically assuming that they don’t use asexual reproduction?

  102. 102.

    wjca

    @NotMax: No anecdotes about how others react to seeing HIM in the showers?

    Repressed memories of traumatic events don’t lend themselves to anecdotes.

  104. 104.

    Geminid

    @Trivia Man: I think this is in fact a possibility– that Trump might suspend his campaign next week for some stated reason. It seems to me less likely than him finishing out the next 16 days, but Trump shows real signs of demoralization and/or decompensation, neurological disease, or maybe all three.

    But I’m happy to say this is Suzie Wiles’ problem and not mine.

  105. 105.

    anitamargarita

    @RevRick: these are good and inspiring words, but I’ve found Roger Williams to be a much better founding father, in the vein of “Mind your own damn business!”

    I realize that politics and religion are not the same now, but back in the day, they were very much intertwined.

    My problem with Winthrop is that he abandoned the ideals of love and forgiveness when it came to Williams’ dissent from Puritanism.

  107. 107.

    Regnad Kcin

    @Jay: 63 also, and I am reliably informed that your stats (similar to mine) place us several std deviations to the good. Not a great recommendation  for humanity but I think a good explainer of our world today…

  108. 108.

    Citizen Alan

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Anyone who actually engaged in “negging” is, by any reasonable definition, a sociopath. Kay has talked about this, about how these pickup artist and right-wing “influencers” have ruined an entire generation of young white males by persuading them that they are not required to even try to make themselves appealing to women. Instead, the goal is to drag women down to their level or, more accurately, a level beneath them.

    They can change. But someone has to make them understand that they need to.

  109. 109.

    Birdie

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): FWIW I understand where you are coming from, I think. We have moved to a new city and been here almost two years now. We volunteer, we joined clubs aligned with our interests, we have done meetups. At the end of two years we still have not found anyone who says “yes” when we invite them over for dinner. The only people who have been with us in our home are visitors (friends from our prior lives) from out of town.

    I think in general it’s really easy to characterise “loneliness” as “your own damn fault” or “have you thought about being a nicer person”, but I think it is more complicated than that. It’s easy to stereotype but I’m not sure it’s true that every young man who is lonely thinks feminists are Nazis, and it for sure isn’t the case for lonely people in general, even lonely people who are in happy relationships like me.

    Not that the president has to solve it, but I find the dismissive attitude on display here (and especially to you) off-putting.

  110. 110.

    Jay

    @Citizen Alan:

    The really stupid part of this,

    I have never in my life, tried to “pick up” a “chick”.

    Example, went out by myself (20’s) on a Saturday Night, Drove my bike to Luv Affair, drank some, danced some, club closed down. Went to Bino’s (24 hour “Denny’s type) on Hastings, across from the PNE. Got a table, French Toast, Bacon, Coffee. Maybe had drank a bit more than some. Helmet on the chair next to me, leather jacket on the back of my chair.

    Bino’s was a commuter spot for people heading home from the Downtown Night Clubs to the suburbs.

    4 seats at the table, I am occupying one. Say “yes” and “please” and “thank you” and “how is your night going” and “that would be nice” to the waitress. Get a tap on my shoulder soon after, 2 Girls, one Guy, moved out from a booth and ask if they can share my table. Lead girl (friend of Girl 1) asked. I said sure, moved my helmet onto the floor.

    She sat her friend next to me, took the chair across from her, and sat the Guy down across from me.

    Girl 1 was super cute, Girl 2 had the “wingman vibe” and not my type, guy had the “Creepy Disco Vibe”. Went to exchange nyms, and that’s when I realized Girl 1 was a deaf mute. So I flashed her the ASL “hi”, and she responded with a flurry of ASL.

    When the waitress passed, topping up our coffees, I kindly asked her if she had a spare pen, and could we get a stack of napkins. When the waitress returned, I wrote on a napkin, “that’s the only ASL I know”.

    Long story shortened. So she and I talked on napkins, included her friend and “Disco guy” in the conversations, who bailed after about 30 minutes, ( not getting any), and then we kept talking for about another 45 minutes. Big pile of dead trees on the table.

    She asked me to go home with her. Pointed out I didn’t have a spare helmet, she said her friend would drive her, I just had to follow. So I did.

    Then, she said I had to wait outside until the Babysitter left, OK.

    So, we spent the night, and the am, and she went back to sleep. Heard the TV go on, got dressed, went out, introduced myself to her 6 year old son, ( so she had gotten pregnant at about 14 years old). Made coffee, sat and watched Transformers and other cartoons for a while, asked him what he wanted for breakfast, “French Toast, Bacon and orange juice”.

    I asked if he would help, he said he didn’t know how, I said I could teach him. So, we made breakfast.

    I guess it was either the bacon or the coffee that woke her up.

    “We” lasted about 8 months. I was on shifts, we couldn’t phone call much, so it wasn’t easy, we did a bunch of family things, but wern’t living together, took her son to her Grad, and then she got a “dream job” 2400 miles away.

    So, anyway,………

  111. 111.

    Ironcity

    @Jay: Do you really believe anyone should watch that stuff and use it as a model or reference for life?  A formula for being played by people with agendas that do not involve your life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.

  112. 112.

    Chris Johnson

    @Mag: Well, that’s me as well, except I’m 56. I have some perspective on all that.

    By now, I play a solid and useful role in society, have my own little fan-club around the (rather left-wing) work I do, I have dated and made love, and I have women in my life who have expressed that they love me and find me a real anchor point in their lives (if you’re in recovery folks can be allowed to say that on an anniversary card when you’ve got like 32 years clean…)

    And I got more in common with an Arnold Palmer than a Donald Trump, on top of that, and I am still single and share some of those feelings.

    I think it’s hardwired: men are jittery and dissatisfied and your duty as a man is to ride that out. Those lower animal impulses are the mainspring for a lot of creativity and activity. More importantly, if you ONLY satisfy those urges and do nothing else, you live a miserable and useless life. But you can’t turn off the messages from those urges so you gotta ride them and stay attuned to your higher self, what’s human about you. Tim Walz is cool in that regard because he’s liberal as hell but also totally unashamed of being a man. And just because he tells a grandkid turkey counts as vegetables, does not mean he’ll throw a fit if he’s not obeyed. On the other hand he might carry you out of a burning building even if you tell him to leave you… it all depends.

    I dated an amazing woman in Canada. She was the smartest person I know, perhaps, but had her own version of these sorts of challenges: she absolutely ran her life and me, which didn’t offend me as I have my work to focus on, but she really wanted a cowboy-type to er, corral her etc etc and that didn’t mesh at all with who she was as a very strong and capable person. She’d had a guy like that and he had been abusive. I don’t know how she’ll resolve that clash between the animal urge and the higher human being, I only know I was miles away from being what she wanted, and would never be able to be that. I’m way more genderqueer than that and she wanted a capital M Man, except not like her ex, but she craved her ex and couldn’t stop talking about him.

    I wish everybody lots of luck, and if you have found some kind of synthesis, be damn grateful about it. You can be an excellent human being with or without massive sexual frustration. I’m going to try to carry on being an excellent human being in spite of that frustration. Tim Walz existing doesn’t solve anything for me, but then why should he?

  113. 113.

    Jay

    @Ironcity:

    You said should.

    No,

    But they do, some of that is the social medial feed,

    I like History, watch a bunch of it on you tube, but know enough when you tube is trying to feed me a wheriboo vid, (NAZI apologist/alt history) .

     

    Yes, and that is from recently working in a mostly young male, no college workplace.

    With staff, 1/3rd of my time spent was teaching them how to do their jobs, 1/3rd was spent teaching them how to use tools, what tool for what project, safety, building code, etc

    and 1/3rd debunking internet bullshit like Peterson’s “Lobster Theory”.

    When I came in, if they had “epic fail” vids or music downloads on, it made me happy because I could actually get some work done, rather than having to explain how what they were watching was BS put out by a “Crypto King” wanted in 14 countries.

  114. 114.

    BretH

    Just want to say thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. I worry at times for my 25yr old son but I know he’s a super human being and that someone right – or close enough to it – will show up in his life. This conversation has given me a feast for thought.

  115. 115.

    Jay

    @Chris Johnson:

    but she craved her ex and couldn’t stop talking about him.

    Strike one.
    Funny thing, I was “once a Cowboy”. Douglas Lake Cattle Company, largest in the world at the time.

    Breaking horses, birthing them babies, patrolling and repairing fence lines, kipping out in line shacks, dealing with “varmints” of all kinds, 24/7, getting paid every two weeks and then a shower, two days off, going to town and getting a rager on,……..
    She wanted a Hollywood Cowboy.

  116. 116.

    Chris Johnson

    @Jay: No no… I can do that. I’m six foot 175 pounds and lift weights and have a beard and I can pull off ‘hollywood cowboy’ pretty well, especially since I’m naturally isolated and taciturn (when not being genderqueer and letting myself chatter like a grackle and be excited and enthusiastic about stuff).

    No, she wanted the real deal. ‘Rager’ has no place in my life, but she wanted all of that. But only in bed, and under control everywhere else. Didn’t work for me, and I didn’t enjoy being goaded to be more ragey for her pleasure.  I didn’t say it worked for her either, but I daresay she was able to find more of that, smart and determined woman. Whether she was able to get it ‘under control everywhere else’ is another story, one I’ll never hear.

    She absolutely didn’t want a Hollywood cowboy, she wanted the real deal. I have no problem with that not being me. I don’t ‘man’ that way.

  117. 117.

    Jay

    @Chris Johnson:

    She did not want, the “real deal” cowboy, you spend 2 weeks alone with cows, two horses, one change of clothes,maybe a dog, no showers, maybe a dive in a “tank”* she wanted a Dom.

    Weird thing about BDSM, most sub’s are powerful women/men in their daily lives.

    *a tank is a shallow ditch dug into the ground to capture snow melt and rain

  118. 118.

    Jay

    @Chris Johnson:

    BTW, the pay is shit, the hours are shit, but at least you are outside from the late spring blizzards, through bug season to the fall snows,

    but the horses who wanted to kill you last spring, tolerate you now.

  119. 119.

    AM in NC

    @Mag:   Would your son ever consider taking an acting class if you are near an arts center that offers drama classes?

    usually a lot of different kinds of people in those classes, but uniformly kind and welcoming of everyone-or that’s been my experience anyway.  It’s a nice community.

  121. 121.

    PaulWartenberg

    We need to be teaching young men from the 7th grade on up to JUST BE FOOKING GENTLEMEN TOWARDS WOMEN. No expectations, no demands, no mind games. JUST. BEHAVE. Don’t buy into any Alpha Male / Tradwife slut-shaming porn-addicting bullsh-t.

    I’m lonely not because of my politics – I’ve been liberal/left-leaning since my college days – but because I suffer from social anxiety, low self-esteem, and general butt-ugliness. But you young guys have a choice: Either be nice, or else be assh-les. Being assh-les doesn’t work.

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