Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. do not touch it.”

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Dear elected officials: Trump is temporary, dishonor is forever.

Quote tweet friends, screenshot enemies.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

When we show up, we win.

Dear media: perhaps we ought to let Donald Trump speak for himself!

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

Giving up is unforgivable.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Speaker Mike Johnson is a vile traitor to the House and the Constitution.

I really should read my own blog.

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

You passed on an opportunity to be offended? What are you even doing here?

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Full-Blown Hate Rallies, Mini-Stop the Steal Rallies, Mini Jan 6 Rallies

Full-Blown Hate Rallies, Mini-Stop the Steal Rallies, Mini Jan 6 Rallies

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AOC makes the point that these Trump rallies are full-blown hate rallies.  Mini versions of Stop the Steal.  Mini versions of Jan 6.  I think she’s right.  But if even 1% of Trump voters turn away in disgust, and decide not to vote,  that can be the difference between winning and losing.

Is this the October surprise?  Remember, almost none of the conventional wisdom applies anymore.  October has turned out to be more of an Advent calendar, with a surprise a day.

In the midst of all the ugliness, in the midst of seeing the terrible reality of the current Supreme Court, in the midst of seeing so may office holders caring nothing about democracy, caring nothing about the actual human beings they “serve”…

In the midst of all that, we have seen who the real leaders are and what our leaders are made of.  A few of them came away tarnished, but damn, do we have a great bench, or what?

As a party, we have learned to fight back in a different way.

We have learned to speak the truth in a different way.

We are learning to ignore the media organizations that have little or nothing to do with journalism.

In some cases, what where there once was coal, or what appeared to be coal, there are now diamonds.

OAC and Walz on Twitch yesterday.

Assuming we get through this with a win, we couldn’t possibly have a better team to help us move forward.

Reader Interactions

236Comments

  2. 2.

    Captain C

    I would like any media that acts like Sunday’s hate rally was something new to remember that they, themselves described the 1992 Republican Convention (the one where Pat Buchanan gave a speech that was apparently translated from 1930s German) as a “hatefest.”

    Also, apropos of nothing, this short, 6ish minute film.

  3. 3.

    Chief Oshkosh

    I’ve seen this AOC interview cited a few times now. Has anyone asked her what the federal plans are for  various venues likely to see violence? I know that polling locations are the purview of state authorities, but are there roles for the feds there? Are there preparations for dealing with the “cause confusion and send the decision to the House” ploy?

  4. 4.

    Scout211

    There is good news everywhere.  We just have to screen out the nasty noise that comes from the otter side and the media’s fascination with it.

    Jen O’Malley Dillon at HuffPost:

    Jen O’Malley Dillon, the chair of Kamala Harris’ 2024 presidential campaign, explained on Sunday why she believes the Democratic nominee will emerge triumphant over GOP rival, former President Donald Trump.

    “We feel very good about where we are; we are very confident we’re going to win this thing,” O’Malley Dillon told MSNBC’s Jen Psaki.

    It’s going to be a “close race,” she acknowledged. But Harris, she continued, still has “multiple pathways” to the 270 electoral votes needed to win the White House and is “on track” for victory.

    “We are seeing high turnout everywhere. We are definitely seeing that our voters are turning out,” she said, adding there are more Democratic low-propensity voters currently showing up than Republican ones.


    Just in the last two days in Clark County in Nevada, for instance, where Las Vegas is, we have seen higher youth turnout in the last two days than we have seen at any other point this cycle,” she noted. In Michigan, meanwhile, O’Malley Dillon said, “We had 145,000 voters vote early just yesterday alone.”

    “So we really like what we’re seeing,” she added. “We’re seeing strong turnout. Our margins are strong, and the folks that we’re focused on, those lower propensity voters that don’t always vote, they are tuning in and showing up at a higher level in support of the vice president.”

    If we look away from the Nazifest that is the Trump campaign, we can see very good signs.

  5. 5.

    ArchTeryx

    @Chief Oshkosh: The feds (mostly the DOJ) absolutely can enforce election law. While every state is in charge of their own election, there are civil rights laws that apply to ALL elections. Those have been badly weakened by the SCrOTUS, but they are not dead. We once sent in the National Guard to enforce Black voting rights in the South. And we can do it again if we have to.

    As for sending things to the House, the only case that happens is a tie in the Electoral College. Period. Merely sowing confusion and refusing to certify is not enough. The votes in dispute are simply subtracted from both the numerator and the denominator of what is required to win the Presidency.

    What I worry about far, far more is that the SCOTUS simply throws out enough votes to declare Trump the winner by fiat. There are thousands of GOP lawsuits either already filed or teed up to throw out as many votes in states Trump loses as possible. That’s when I know we’ve passed the point of no return in autocracy. We call what they did in Bush vs. Gore a judicial coup and it was… but nothing so naked as simply awarding Trump the Presidency, like North Carolina’s legislature simply wants to award him their electors with no election. Their Trump Vs. USA decision awarding him absolute immunity was a necessary first step in an outright coup.

  6. 6.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Scout211: A lot of people seem to want to focus on the negatives.  To look only at the dangers and on the opportunities.  It will cause us to miss chances.  The US government planned the transcontinental railroads and the land grant university while we were fighting the Civil War.

  9. 9.

    Josie

    @Scout211: ​
     So glad to hear that about voting in Las Vegas. That’s where the majority of my postcards went. Maybe I did a little bit of good.
    I agree with you and Omnes. There are more positive things going on and we should emphasize those.

  11. 11.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @NotMax: At least Giuliani didn’t rip off his shirt a la Hogan.

    It was in the script but he forgot. He has a lot on his mind. [/s just in case there’s any doubt.]

  12. 12.

    catclub

    @Belafon: Yes.

    My guess is that there will be a very large number of police and NG troops in DC on Jan 6, and the only crowd will be happy Harris Walz fans.

    I would guess that some state capitol might have a right wing riot, but I think those will be pretty heavily guarded as well. Lesson learned from Michigan in 2020.

  14. 14.

    SatanicPanic

    I’m curious if there are any contingency plans being made in the White House for if Trump wins. If they truly believe that Trump is a fascist (obviously he is), there’s no rational reason to just hand off the presidency to him.

  18. 18.

    Anoniminous

    @Scout211:

    So we really like what we’re seeing,” she added. “We’re seeing strong turnout. Our margins are strong, and the folks that we’re focused on, those lower propensity voters that don’t always vote, they are tuning in and showing up at a higher level in support of the vice president.

    Blows all the Nevada polls out of the water.

  20. 20.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    Some of my favorite substacks seem to be on the conventional wisdom / Nate Silver / ignoring the enraged new voter track. I’ve had to pare down my reading.

    Robert Hubbell gets it.

    I cleaned my garage this morning. As I did—and against my better judgment—I listened to a popular progressive podcast that discussed the state of the polls with ten days remaining in the election.

    Two men (the host and a male pollster) discussed polling results and electoral challenges faced by Kamala Harris for thirty minutes. (This was NOT Simon Rosenberg’s excellent podcast.)

    I waited for the part of the discussion about the first post-Dobbs presidential election and the tens of millions of women who would be motivated like never before to stand up for their full status of citizens with control over their own bodies.

    And I waited. And waited. And waited.

    Twenty-five minutes into the podcast, one of the men finally said the word “women,” but only to wonder if Liz Cheney could “motivate Republican women” to vote for Kamala Harris.

    Most of the discussion focused on the alienation of young male voters, young Hispanic male voters, young Black male voters, and older blue-collar male voters. I get it. Those cohorts represent a challenge for Kamala Harris.

    But to then ignore women entirely in their discussion of the likely outcome of the election repeats the mistake that the male dominated polling, social media, and commentariat makes every day: To underestimate the motivation and passion of women who have been demoted from their status as full citizens in our democracy.

    The polls don’t feel right to me because reproductive rights are usually listed as fourth or fifth on lists of concerns “facing the nation.” But if you are pregnant, have been pregnant, and could be pregnant in the future, or have a wife, daughter, friend or relative who could be, then reproductive rights are not fourth or fifth on your list of concerns. I believe the polls are missing a generation-defining moment in this election.

    I heard a discussion last night between two women, on MSNBC I think. They used the term “white hot rage”. None of that rage is in the polls, and as Hubbell says, it’s a hell of a big thing to ignore.

  22. 22.

    catclub

    @SatanicPanic: If they truly believe that Trump is a fascist (obviously he is), there’s no rational reason to just hand off the presidency to him.

     

    ummm, ‘he got more votes [in the EC]’ sounds like a rational reason.

  24. 24.

    NotMax

    Why do I doubt the check for MSG rental didn’t clear?

    “Oh, did I neglect to sign that? Silly me.”

  28. 28.

    catclub

    @NotMax: Yeah, I figure the reason they are doing MSG is that they have not yet stiffed them. And MSG did not demand payment up front. AND a security deposit.

  30. 30.

    SatanicPanic

    @catclub: There’s a handful of conservative sayings that I think are actually pretty insightful and one of them is ‘the Constitution is not a suicide pact’

  32. 32.

    TBone

    @catclub: I figured the reason was the famous Nazi history at MSG and also here yesterday it was pointed out that yesterday was the anniversary of the Tree of Life Synagogue mass death event here in PA.  Wish I could remember which astute jackal remembered that.

    Also, thank you Captain C at #2.  Looking away is not an option for some of us.

  34. 34.

    SFAW

    Re: Advent calendar: I’m patiently waiting for the Mark Halperin “if true, this will destroy Trump’s chances” event to be revealed. I’m sure that Poltical Knower and Jeenyus Halperin was 1,000,000 percent correct.
    Wait … I guess it’s the Stacey Williams story. So that’s now out there, and I’m sure TCFFG is preparing his “I’m ashamed of my vile behavior, it’s a dirty secret I’ve kept for years, but now I realize I must quit this campaign” speech. Any minute now.

  36. 36.

    dexwood

    I’ve learned this morning that the ghoulish, orange traitor will be in my town, Albuquerque, Thursday, spreading his hate. I think he still owes the city about 200k from 2020. Time to polish my protest shoes and show up to make my voice heard. Fuck that guy.

  37. 37.

    catclub

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: But to then ignore women entirely in their discussion of the likely outcome of the election repeats the mistake that the male dominated polling,

     

    Instead, the smarter observer should be saying that, until we see an election that does NOT show huge polling errors on women motivated by Dobbs, we should assume that the anti-Dobbs vote is large.

  39. 39.

    frosty

    @Omnes Omnibus: The US government planned the transcontinental railroads and the land grant university while we were fighting the Civil War.

    You probably know this, but the reason it could be done during the Civil War was because there were no opponents in Congress from the 11 states that seceded.

  44. 44.

    SatanicPanic

    @E.: In that case I just don’t know how you’d be willing to follow the rules knowing the eventual outcome.

  45. 45.

    JAFD

    Been a bit of discussion of possible home relocations here lately, and a couple of houses from my old stamping grounds been in news recently.

    https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/housing/vince-fumo-spring-garden-mansion-sold-20241010.html

    In the mid-70’s, I rented the ‘garret’ of this mansion (2220 Green St), 5 flights above the sidewalk, bedroom, bath, and living room / Pullman kitchen, with leaky roof and view of skyline that almost made up for it, for $175/month.

    Across the street and at the corner is the former home of Grover Cleveland Bergdoll, brewery heir, auto racer, early pilot, and notorious WWI draft dodger – look him up, you won’t believe it.  This building was ruin in my time there, but now …

    https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/housing/bergdoll-mansion-spring-garden-real-estate-sale-20241021.html

    If you buy it, invite me to your housewarming party.

  46. 46.

    Dangerman

    I’m missing something.

    Of what utility is it to TCFG to have a full on Nazi rally, shades of 1939? Or was it just a giant jerk off session (thankfully, figuratively).

    My one fear right now is this somehow goes to the House. These assholes will think that is a win. While shit burns.

  48. 48.

    tam1MI

    Verified that my mail-in ballot was received today, and it was. One more vote for Harris/Walz in the hopper!

  50. 50.

    RaflW

    Very minor thing, and I guess somewhere in the recesses of my mind I already knew Dr. Phil was a winger, but the dude spoke at the 5 Hours Hate thing in Madison Sq Garden yesterday.

    The f**k that guy was ever a ‘therapist.’ Gutter human.

  51. 51.

    BR

    If you all didn’t see the little link below the video embed above to AOC and Walz on Twitch you should all go watch it.

  54. 54.

    Velocifowl

    @Dangerman:

    It was a Nazi rally but it was also there to rile up their base.  All the Project 2025, National Conservatism, Christian Nationalism, and other nonsense that’s been spewed out has directly advocated violence to establish fascism.  It’s just more pump priming because they can taste a final victory solution.

  56. 56.

    Ruckus

    We have seen reports of people going to a shitforbrains rally and when he gets on stage with the mic turned on people start leaving. Not all of them but also not an insignificant number. He has reached the stage in life where the brain stops being rational, in any way reasonable. Not everyone gets to that side but then not everyone is shitforbrains. The world looks different when you are on the slowing down side of life. And to some it isn’t going to be a good look, mainly those that never had the whatever to see a good look before they got old and demented. Also not every one gets demented as they get to the end, in my experience most do not. I’d bet that most of the ones that go there were not all that and a box of cookies in the first place. And shitforbrains was always a box of used TP, well before he got to oldfartitus territory.

  58. 58.

    RaflW

    @Sister Golden Bear: I had wondered about this. Setting aside the election law issues, there’s no way the daily drawing “is supervised by the tabulation firm Price Waterhouse” or whatever is said these days (drawing that from ancient memory).

    IOW, lotteries have to have explicit, published rules, some degree of outside authentication of the drawings, etc.

    Good on this DA for going for it!

  59. 59.

    TBone

    @SatanicPanic:

    “It is unfathomable as a matter of constitutional interpretation that the Presidency of the United States is not an ‘office under the United States,'” Luttig, an adviser to Trump’s former Vice President Mike Pence, wrote Friday. “It is even more constitutionally unfathomable, if that’s possible, that the former president did not take an oath ‘to support the Constitution of the United States’ within the meaning of Section 3 when he took the presidential oath ‘to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.'”

    Later he added: “The Constitution is not a suicide pact with America’s democracy. Indeed, it is the very contrary in this instance. It is plain that the entire purpose of Section 3, confirmed by its literal text, is to disqualify any person who, having taken an oath to support the Constitution, engages in an insurrection or rebellion against the Constitution. The former president did exactly that when he attempted to overturn the 2020 election and remain in office in rebellious violation of the Constitution’s Executive Vesting Clause, which prescribes the four-year term of the presidency.”

    https://www.newsweek.com/legal-analysts-react-after-judge-finds-trump-engaged-insurrection-1844983

  64. 64.

    Citizen Dave

    @RaflW: A permanent stain on Oprah’s legacy for foisting Dr. Phil on America.  Ironic they have participated on different sides in this campaign.

    Dr. Phil is extremely repulsive to me.  A detriment to the bald community.

  65. 65.

    Scout211

    @Raoul Paste: Those pesky otters!!

    LOL.  OTHER not otter.

    But since our youngest is a CSUMB Otter graduate, maybe I meant to type that.*

     

    *narrator:  Scout211 did not mean to type that.

  66. 66.

    hueyplong

    We (not wrongly) spend time complaining about how Trump’s malignant narcissism goes unchecked and at times allows him to avoid the ramifications of his actions.  But there is also a downside (for GOPers) to his narcissism.  It’s possible that last night’s 1939 MSG Nazi rally reenactment was something Trump simply required psychologically, in order to “get over” on the NYC that has always known who he is and reviled him.  And however lunatic his cult might be, it seems unlikely that campaign strategery motivated the 40-odd minute silent “weave” to music at a recent rally.

    I refuse to believe that zero voters will be peeled off his vote totals by Trump’s combination of declining cognition and even more radical fascism than he exhibited in 2020.  There is no serious third party candidate to help Trump make 47% of the vote into a winner.

    Our side is going to win this.

  67. 67.

    Ruckus

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Same thought here.

    I take some solace that at his rallies a not insignificant number of people turned around and walked away, after showing up, and that at the last few rallies not nearly as many showed up as expected. I do not expect that we’ve won them over, just that he’s lost them. I do not expect this direction to change in the next few days, shitforbrains has not gotten, nor is he getting better, there is only one direction that what he’s got going on in that demented head of his goes and that is worse.

  68. 68.

    Eolirin

    @Salty Sam: Otters are vicious nasty monsters, and have been documented doing all sorts of incredibly fucked up things to other species in their ecosystems.

  69. 69.

    Scout211

    U.S. intelligence agencieshave identified domestic extremists with grievances rooted in election-related conspiracy theories, including beliefs in widespread voter fraud and animosity toward perceived political opponents, as the most likely threat of violence in the coming election.

    In a Joint Intelligence Bulletin that was not distributed publicly but was reviewed by NBC News, agents from the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security warn state and local law enforcement agencies that domestic violent extremists seeking to terrorize and disrupt the vote are a threat to the election and throughout Inauguration Day.

    The report identified the potential targets as candidates, elected officials, election workers, members of the media and judges involved in election cases. The potential threats include physical attacks and violence at polling places, ballot drop boxes, voter registration locations and rallies and campaign events.

    The October internal report was among several intelligence documents obtained through public records requests by Property of the People, a nonprofit group focused on government transparency. Federal agents regularly provide that type of threat assessment to state and local law enforcement agencies through formal bulletins. Before Jan. 6, 2021, they were more reluctant to distribute them because of concern that investigations of Americans might appear to violate free speech protections.

    “The United States remains in a heightened, dynamic threat environment and we continue to share information with our law enforcement partners about the threats posed by domestic violent extremists in the context of the 2024 election,” DHS spokesperson Mayra Rodriguez said in a statement. “Violence has no place in our politics, and DHS continues to work with our partners to evaluate and mitigate emerging threats that may arise from domestic or foreign actors.”

  70. 70.

    SatanicPanic

    @TBone: Right, him and the Cheneys on our side? Weird timeline

    @zhena gogolia: It’s interesting how these times are showing which conservatives have actual principles. I wish there were more of them.

  71. 71.

    West of the Rockies

    Wow.  So in 24 hours, over 600 million people may have received the message to vote for Harris cuz Trump is heinous.

    Instagram followers:  Ricky Martin ten million; Bad Bunny 45 million; JLo 250 million; Arianna Grande 375 million.

    Well done, dumb Donny.

  72. 72.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @SFAW:

    I’m patiently waiting for the Mark Halperin “if true, this will destroy Trump’s chances” event to be revealed.

    Look who we have to thank for sex pest and hack Halperin’s emergence out from under the rock where he belonged (via Wiki):

    According to a May 3, 2019, report in The Daily Beast, Halperin worked on repairing his reputation during the first quarter of 2019 with a goal of returning as a pundit on television and radio. According to the article, Halperin enlisted the help of Michael Smerconish, Mika Brzezinski, and Joe Scarborough on an under-the-radar yet calculated professional rehabilitation campaign. Since the beginning of 2019, Halperin resumed posting on Twitter and launched a new political blog titled “Mark Halperin’s Wide World of News” in mid-April. Around the same time, Halperin appeared on Sirius XM with Smerconish, where he said he has been working with the Fortune Society, a New York City-based nonprofit organization that provides essential support to the formerly incarcerated.

    On August 18, 2019, publisher Regan Arts announced that Halperin had signed a new book deal. The book, entitled How to Beat Trump: America’s Top Political Strategists on What It Will Take, was published in early-November 2019. Contributors to the book include David Axelrod, Donna Brazile, and James Carville. Both CNN and NBC declined to promote the book.

    The pundit club….SMDH.

  73. 73.

    TBone

    Look for the helpers (How to Stop Fascism link was helpfully provided by a commenter in another blog):

     The lessons from Germany that I present below are not at all new.  We have been trained by digital media to believe that only what happens right now matters.  But the people who intend to destroy the American constitutional republic have learned from the past.  One of the basic elements of Project 2025, for example, is what the Nazis called Gleichschaltung: 

    transforming the civil service into a fascist nest.

    https://braddelong.substack.com/cp/150174198

  74. 74.

    sdhays

    @hueyplong: Yes. There’s not some “big strategy” behind this. Trump wanted it, and Trump gets what he wants from his minions. Any “strategy” related to this is his minions coming up with “how can we use this so it’s not a TOTAL disaster?”.

  76. 76.

    SatanicPanic

    @Eolirin: I want to know more but I also don’t think any bad news about otters can penetrate my brain on account of their cuteness. They’re so cute when they’re napping on the water with their little otter babies.

  77. 77.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    @frosty: I never thought about Congress in the Civil War till I saw that “Lincoln” movie with Daniel Day-Lewis. As I recall in the movie (which I presume was based on fact) they had “representatives” from the southern states and maintained a fiction that they were still legally part of the union. Not sure how those representatives were elected though. Probably not confederate loyalists would be my guess.

  79. 79.

    Chris Johnson

    @SatanicPanic: Yo, SP: there’s a difference between ‘Trump wins’ and ‘Trump said that he won’ and you need to be cognizant of that. We’re not MAGAs and we have not actually counted the actual votes yet. We are still working on keeping the MAGAs from literally burning them, and that’s gonna keep us busy.

    Just because the MAGAs are trying to throw the votes away and claim victory is not grounds for us throwing the votes away and claiming victory. We are INTERESTED in how it actually went down because we’re a democracy and we still have enough control of the process that it’s no foregone conclusion MAGA shenanigans will succeed. It looks like they won’t.

    We also cannot have ‘MAGA claimed victory’ as a condition for us throwing votes away and claiming victory. Of course they’re going to do that, they lie about everything and have telegraphed their whole intent.

    Process matters. Sit TF down, unless you have not voted in which case go effing vote.

  80. 80.

    TBone

    @TBone:

    To be sure, every person and every event is in some sense unique.  But history is precisely the interaction of individuals and situations which, seen in isolation, will appear unique.  The taboo on fascist history shoves people back to a turbulent present, leaving them feeling more helpless. It is an element of the fascist takeover.

  83. 83.

    Ruckus

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    THIS.

    Men have been ignoring women forever. Not all men for sure but not an in any way insignificant number. Men that have been told or told each other (and themselves) that they are superior since time began and it always comes back to bite them where it hurts the most eventually. Pompous arrogance always does. And yes, pompous arrogance works both ways. I have personal experience. It also can be changed – I also have personal experience in this side of the conflict as well. I’m not sure it can be for everyone but some are capable of learning and growth.

  85. 85.

    Anoniminous

    First and Foremost let’s set the context: Trump has NEVER won the popular vote.

    Systematic polling errors since Dobbs.

    Now add …

    Saying this —-
    Newsweek Oct 16:

    59 percent to 39 percent, among college educated white men, a group referred to by some as “Dobbs dads.”

    The term is defined as fathers of girls or young women who may have traditionally voted Republican, but who Democrats think will switch their ballots in November out of concern about their daughters’ reproductive rights after the Supreme Court’s decision on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization which overturned the landmark Roe v. Wade case that had made abortion a constitutional right.

    So I can say …

    Brookings Institute:

    ” From 2016 to 2020, Trump’s college-educated white evangelical vote fell 18 points from 81% to 63%, for a 22% dip. Were 2024 to witness another dip that size or greater, he would not win a majority of that vote.”

    And conclude Trump’s support from college-educated white male evangelicals has dropped from 2020. How much? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ no way of telling. But in a close election a Rule of Thumb states for every voter a candidate loses requires two new voters to recover and Trump is NOT accumulating new voters at that rate.

    Last, overall The electorate is changing and in ways that do not favor Trump in specific and the Republicans in general.

    Note that none of these structural changes in the electorate can be captured by polling screens based on the usual criteria. That is, in part, the reason Democrats are over-preforming polls.

    tl;dr: everything Reality Based is pointing to a Harris win.

  86. 86.

    Salty Sam

    Uff- da!!! Gotta vent-

    I’ve written here not too long ago how my brother-in-law has been “turned” by his MAGA ex-gf.  It’s like a pod-people switch, from a simple, kind-hearted apolitical good-ol’-boy to a raging, spite filled MAGA asshole himself.  He is a conduit now for Russian generated MAGA memes on Facebook.

    Salty Spouse has been dealing with her sadness about this (he is was her favorite sibling), but the tension we are all feeling about the next 8 days finally got to her- she started trying to counter his FB bullshit this morning, becoming angrier and angrier as it escalated.  They have now cut each other off, unfriended, whatever.

    I tried to counsel restraint  (“What sort of outcome are you expecting?  You are bound to be disappointed…”) to no avail.  She is a frothing fountain of rage right now.  I’m just trying to avoid fallout.

    I personally remain in a state of equanimity about it all; my personal vibes tell me that “We got this!”, and am even daring to hope that we win big.  I’m doing pretty well at not letting the MAGA bullshit and lies poison my mind.

    That said, the next 8 days (and beyond) are going to be difficult to get through.  Hang in there one and all!

  87. 87.

    wjca

    damn, do we have a great bench, or what?

    It may be worth remembering that the Republicans also have a pretty good (potential) bench.  Albeit currently almost invisible.  Think of the mayors of Springfield, OH and Mesa, AZ.  There are more out there — just doing their jobs for their constituents (all their constituents) and not embracing the MAGA insanity of the national party.

    You may say, yeah, but they are only mayors, and of moderate to small cities at that.  That’s  true.  But I have one word for you: Buttigeig.  He was just the (ex-)mayor of a small city.  But look where he is now.  The MAGAts may be in for a surprise at how fast they lose control as Trump passes from the scene.

  90. 90.

    SatanicPanic

    @Chris Johnson: ? My comment is entirely based on the idea that he won outright in a free and fair election after the votes are counted. I am in no way suggesting that we give any credence to Trump’s claims of winning.

  91. 91.

    ArchTeryx

    @NotMax: Bonus points for remembering the terrible Quintinshill crash – one of the deadliest rail accidents in history, and completely whitewashed away because it happened in the middle of WWI. So many troops were dying. What was another several hundred?

    And it all came down to a couple of signalmen deciding to have a cuppa between shifts instead of keeping track of their bloody trains.

  93. 93.

    Sure Lurkalot

    @Ruckus:

    I take some solace that at his rallies a not insignificant number of people turned around and walked away, after showing up, and that at the last few rallies not nearly as many showed up as expected. I do not expect that we’ve won them over, just that he’s lost them.

    We shall see shortly whether by babbling incoherently, making them wait uncomfortably for hours and leaving them stranded in harsh conditions he’s actually lost their votes.

  96. 96.

    Tony Jay

    @TBone:

    I read a potboiler novel years ago set in an alternate America where the 1932 election was won by an America First/KKK alliance. Amidst the formulaic plot it had a number of deeply chilling parts – the list of American concentration camps that went on for a page and a half after the list of German camps had petered out, the revised school curriculum telling kids to react with anger to black children laughing, etc.

    But in many ways the most chilling was the scene where the protagonist – a US born British agent masquerading as a lawyer – attends a meeting in the bowels of Hoover’s FBI where a table of young, hard-faced bureaucrats talk with complete candour and zero anger about which aspects of the Constitution will need to be wiped out with the stroke of a pen in order for the Second American Republic to achieve proper purity.

    America is their country. All the rest of it is just packaging.

  99. 99.

    TBone

    @Salty Sam: I spoke to a friend this morning who was receptive to my Harris advocacy just a few short weeks ago.  Since then, Dr. Fucking Phil (!) has made her turn backward into her former zealotry and she is, once again, unreachable. AND I will not be sending any Christmas cards (or contacting her again for any reason).   Former BFF since age 13 🤬

    I feel your pain.

  100. 100.

    ArchTeryx

    @NotMax: Otters are mustelids, or weasels. And mustelids take just about everything, good, bad, and ugly, up to about 25.

    Also, a lot of the otters people see are Asian Small-Clawed Otters, which are both highly gregarious and a lot less nasty than our own river and sea otters.

    Even my own giant character, half-otter, half-orca Sylia, embodies the duality of otters. What people SEE, and what they actually are LIKE. But no, she doesn’t go around and molest baby seals.

  103. 103.

    Josie

    @Salty Sam: ​
     I’m so sorry you and your wife are going through this. The other grandmother and I are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. The only way we are getting through this is by not discussing politics at all. It makes for some awkward pauses in conversations, but so far we are ok. I really like her and vice versa, and we both care deeply for our children and grandchildren, so we are trying hard to keep things civil. I tend to be somewhat outspoken, so it is really difficult.

  104. 104.

    TBone

    @Tony Jay: this is why I rent Inglorious Basterdz at periodic intervals.

    That revisionist history helps me to translate my rage instead of imploding.

    They will not conquer us.

  105. 105.

    Aziz, light!

    @Sure Lurkalot: Will Trump lose any votes for treating his rally crowds like shit or boring them to death? The number of people at these rallies is a tiny drop in the bucket of Trump voters. It’s also very hard to turn true believers away from their delusions.

  106. 106.

    Baud

    Above all, I’ll never forgive Trump for forcing me into an alliance with people I don’t want to ally with.

    Geraldo to Latino men: A vote for Trump is a vote against self-respect

  107. 107.

    p.a.

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Waaayyyy above my pay grade but IIRC there was a legal argument that since the Union was/is inviolable, there was never secession.  The Confederacy was in a state of revolt but not separate.  This difference had legal impacts on how regions & individuals could be treated by the Fed gvt.  Again, IANAL.

  111. 111.

    Velocifowl

    @ArchTeryx:

    Having had a pet ferret I can vouch for this.  They are hilarious gregarious little animals but they are mischievous little murder machines as well.  Our little demon enjoyed fighting the cat and our rottie at the same time and would come out on top.

  113. 113.

    ArchTeryx

    @Tony Jay: Apropos of nothing, playing Boke to your Tsukkome was fun, but someone brought up Quintinshill. And there’s absolutely nothing, zero, funny about that. Just reading about it gave me nightmares. I gave the one who mentioned it props, because few people even in the UK remember it

    One of the darkest days in British Rail history.

  115. 115.

    JiveTurkin

    My stepdaughter used to work for Lockheed Martin. It was her first job out of college. To get the job she had to get a security clearance. When she got promoted and actually worked on some submarine technology she had to get a higher security clearance. I assume if they found out she was communicating with Vladimir Putin she would have been fired and had her security clearances yanked. Why is Elon Musk any difference?

  116. 116.

    SatanicPanic

    @Baud: This is why I don’t like the term Latino. It means I have to be included in a group with Geraldo, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and, most embarrassingly, Pitbull.

  117. 117.

    Central Planning

    @TBone: From the Drew Carey show:

    Oswald:
    She sent a note… and it’s a dirty note! ‘The penis mightier than the sword!’

    Drew:
    Let me see that…That’s ‘pen is,’ you moron!

  118. 118.

    Sister Golden Bear

    Regarding the “Gen X sucks” discussion downstairs, people need to remember that the 50-64 cohorts cited in various surveys ≠ Gen X — which is actually 44-59. In other words, those surveys are including five years of Boomers, and omitting five years of Xers (who commenters here and on social media are lumping in with Millennials).

    Yes, Gen X has been disappointedly conservative, but we may not be as much as an outlier as it seems. E.g. the latest ABC poll shows Trump +9 with the 50-64 bracket, Harris leading +11 in the 40-49 bracket (which is actually half Gen X) and +5 in the 65+ bracket. We’ll get better picture in four years, when Gen X ages aligns with the survey cohorts.

  120. 120.

    ArchTeryx

    @Omnes Omnibus: We disagree about a lot of things, but I’m 100% on your side here. One thing at a time. Fight to win the election. If we succeed, we won’t NEED the civil war plans. If we lose, then we can start to deal with it. But one disaster at a time.

  121. 121.

    jonas

    @Aziz, light!: The point of Trump rallies these days isn’t really to listen to anything Trump has to say. He never says anything new or interesting (or coherent). It’s to hang out with thousands of other cheering deplorables who make you feel good about being a complete shithead personally and politically.

  122. 122.

    Chris Johnson

    @sdhays: If there is a big strategy, it’s Russia strategizing that Trump can become the loser and MAGA enabler he was always meant to be. I don’t think he was ever meant to, or expected to, actually win. This time he sure ain’t. People are on guard. So the strategy is ‘position best for domestic terror’ and Trump is quite capable of playing that role.

  123. 123.

    Salty Sam

    @Josie: …we are trying hard to keep things civil… it is really difficult.

    Yeah.  My BIL is a big fan of the old “Forged In Fire” (knife making) show- he was over the moon excited when he came to visit last year and I coached him in building his own knife in my blacksmith shop.  He vowed to return and build another someday.

    I told Spouse that if he ever started making noise about visiting again*, that she should let him know that I just put up a sign over my forge: “FASCISTS AND NAZIS ARE NOT WELCOME HERE”

    * after today’s shenanigans, doubtful he’ll be angling for an invite anytime soon.

  124. 124.

    Kelly

    @TBone: and Portland

    https://www.katu.com/news/local/incendiary-device-set-off-inside-se-portland-ballot-box-causing-fire#

    These boxes are operated by local elections department. Unlike the Arizona dufus that burned a Post Office box this is not a federal crime as far as I know. The Portland box is in a deep blue precinct where a few hundred ballots won’t matter. The Vancouver ballots are in a very closely contested congressional district. They might matter a lot.

  125. 125.

    Velocifowl

    @JiveTurkin:

    Same reason Steve Jobs was despite his use of LSD being an automatic disqualifier.  If you run a company and the government needs something from your company you get cleared no matter the disqualifiers.  Your staff might not, but you will be.

    All the tech oligarchs are treated this way and always have been.

  126. 126.

    SatanicPanic

    @Omnes Omnibus: We should. But planning only for the best case scenario isn’t planning.

    Edit- I’m not advocating that we do anything. This would solely be on the White House.

  127. 127.

    trollhattan

    Tories in the newsroom, as BBC conducts their own Cletus roundups. Actual current front page headline.
    Tariffs hurt his business. He’s voting for Trump anyway
    Mind you, they had to go to Wyoming to find this “entrepreneur.”

  129. 129.

    Anoniminous

    @trollhattan:

    The beauty of being a credulous stenographer journalist is within the vast diversity of humanity you can find somebody, somewhere, to provide a quote to “prove” anything you want to prove.

  132. 132.

    Chris Johnson

    @SatanicPanic: Plan for fighting crime, there will be more than enough of that. Your worries do not mean these people have the numbers. Trump or the NYT saying MAGAs constitute literally 50% of the population doesn’t make it true.

  133. 133.

    Kelly

    @Velocifowl: I watched a mother otter fight a mink. The mink was the size of her 3 cubs. The mink was a quarter the size of the otter but did not back off until 5 noisy minutes of battle. From about a 100 feet away it was just a blur in and out of the riverside willows. No obvious wounds.

  135. 135.

    John S.

    @Citizen Dave:

    You can also add Dr. Oz to the stain on Oprah’s legacy. One could almost argue that at this point, Oprah’s legacy is foisting horrible people onto America.

  141. 141.

    SatanicPanic

    @Omnes Omnibus: Use his emergency powers to install Harris, take some other steps that I am not going to type out on the internet (or anywhere else).

    @Chris Johnson: Numbers for what? I explicitly said that in my proposed scenario that Trump has won the election fair and square. I am sure that the Biden administration has plans if there’s another Jan 6 and am not worried about the various non-certification plans in the House.

  143. 143.

    Starfish

    @SatanicPanic: It creates anti-democratic norms. Don’t turn into the monsters that you are fighting.

    The time would be better spent on executive orders to protect democratic norms and figuring out how to protect various parts of executive government from politicization.

  145. 145.

    JoyceH

    Personally, I think it’s a reach to suggest Trump wanted to appear at MSG in some sort of homage to the Nazi rally. I doubt if he ever heard of the rally until recently. The true answer is a lot simpler.

    What is Trump? Ask his supporters and they’ll say he’s a businessman and a builder. But do we see any evidence of that? Does he display ANY knowledge of how to run a business or build a building? No, what Trump is, and the thing he most remembers being, is an entertainment celebrity.

    You see it in his focus- the ratings. You hear it in his vocabulary – central casting. It’s what he most identifies with. He’s also a lifelong resident of New York City.

    So there you have it. A lifelong NYC entertainment celebrity? He wanted to hold a rally at Madison Square Garden because – it’s Madison Square Garden!  Look at me, headliner at the Garden, I’m a big success!

  148. 148.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Omnes Omnibus: perhaps are there some legal battles that could be instigated?

    If he wins, he wins, but if she wins, they’ll fight tooth and nail to drag it through the courts and fight it in more ways than we’ve already seen?

    There’s something wrong with this picture. And it’s an outrage that legal cases to stop him have been ground to a timely halt. But isn’t there some remedy, without stooping to their level?

    This bully, and his team, have been dominating the whole schoolyard, and the staff, and so many layers of authority above them…

  149. 149.

    oldgold

    What Abe Lincoln long ago said about John C. Fremont seems appropriate today.

    “That man Fremont is the damnedest scoundrel that ever lived. Fortunately for mankind, he’s also the damnedest fool that ever lived.”

  153. 153.

    Ruckus

    @Anoniminous:

    It’s grift all the way down – and all the way up.

    In my entire lifetime the rethuglican party wanted to conserve the political life we had, they thought it was good. It may have been for the leaders but it wasn’t for everyone and that is supposed to be the political (and life) basis of this country. It has gotten worse today than it was those many, many decades ago. Selfishness is a human trait, survival of the fittest if you will. However life does not have to be that selfish any longer. We know and understand things that we didn’t in the lifetimes of many still alive today. Science, medicine, manufacturing, power, and on and on. Now not everyone can or needs to know the entirety of things that humans can learn, and even the basics have changed in the lifetime of many still here today. Me for example. But today’s world is a hell of a lot different than it was nearly a century or more ago. Take the words of those that are at least somewhere near close to that old, it has CHANGED. And it will change more in the future. But it has changed a hell of a lot over the last hundred years. And even in the last 50 years.

  154. 154.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @persistentillusion: a friend has an “Advent calendar” for Halloween, which he loves obsessively. Cute little pic of spooky skeletons, or pumpkins, etc, each day a new one, counting down the days until the holiday.

  157. 157.

    Wapiti

    @Eolirin: A cousin had a fishing hole on her property; otters had been reintroduced by the state and eventually made it to her place and wiped out the fish. Once the otter population got to the point the state allowed trapping… well, they got the tags and trapped otters. Fish haven’t recovered, though.

  161. 161.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Gloria DryGarden: Of course, there are legal challenges that can be brought.  But we have someone who is advocating not accepting the results of an election.  I want to know how that leads to a different end result to letting Trump take office.  Is an undemocratic result alright if our side stays in power?   Lots of tyrants start out by setting aside the rules to deal with some emergency.  I am both a big and small “d” Democrat.

  165. 165.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    @JiveTurkin: My son has security clearances for his job at Northrup Grummon. He asked me not to file the paperwork for dual citizenship with Canada because he was afraid it would mess with his clearance. If he talked to Putin, he’d be lucky to only be fired

  167. 167.

    JML

    @geg6: she dated roger ebert for a while, I’ll give oprah a little credit for that. :P

    I think she misses on these people that are able to put a slick and reasonable sounding veneer over complicated questions, especially if they have a nice credential behind their names. She ain’t alone on that one.

  168. 168.

    Velocifowl

    @trollhattan:

    There are giant otters in South America that enjoy taking on alligators and win.  For all their cuteness those things are spoiling for a fight 24/7 and do not care about the odds.

  170. 170.

    trollhattan

    Two more members of the Washington Post’s editorial board resigned Monday as the paper reels into the US election amid an identity crisis.

    Two Post employees said they expected David Hoffman, joined the Post in 1982 and accepted a Pulitzer Prize last week for his series on “new technologies and the tactics authoritarian regimes use to repress dissent in the digital age,” to leave the editorial board.

    Another editorial board member Molly Roberts, who writes a column on technology and society, also resigned from the editorial board.

    They were among the 20 columnists who signed a statement saying owner Jeff Bezos’s decision to stop endorsing was “an abandonment of the fundamental editorial convictions of the newspaper that we love.”

    Editor-at-large Robert Kagan also resigned Friday.

    https://www.semafor.com/article/10/28/2024/more-editorial-board-members-resign-at-washington-post

    Does it matter, big picture? Doubt it.

  172. 172.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Omnes Omnibus: I see your point completely. Its tricky and dangerous. And would undermine the whole point. And flirts with being the same as them.

    And, I often see the merits in both sides of a thing. I just don’t know how to reconcile it. Also IANAL. SO I don’t know

    We just need to win this election and set some course corrections to remedy the stupid crap that’s gone on.

  174. 174.

    Layer8Problem

    @JoyceH:

    He wanted to hold a rally at Madison Square Garden because – it’s Madison Square Garden!  Look at me, headliner at the Garden, I’m a big success!

    Of course you are sweetheart, you’re Bette Midler and Billy Joel simultaneously.

  175. 175.

    Geminid

    @Omnes Omnibus: Here’s some good news you can use, posted 3 days ago by the Milwaukee Journal-Constitution:

       Amtrak’s new Borealis line connecting Milwaukee to the Twin Cities hit a major milestone this week.

    The route, which debuted May 21, has had over100,000 passengers as it closes out its first 22 weeks, Amtrak announced Thursday.

    The route has daily east-bound and west-bound trains, with one leaving St. Paul at midday and one departing Chicago late morning. There are 13 stops between St. Paul and Chicago, with two in Milwaukee.

    This is in addition to the older Empire Builder route that runs from Chicago through Milwaukee and on to Seattle.

  178. 178.

    Ruckus

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    Like I said I don’t expect miracles, some may convert, likely many may abstain from voting so that lowers his count.

    Maybe we will get some converts, maybe not. But them abstaining is still him not getting as many votes. Every little bit helps.

  179. 179.

    SatanicPanic

    @Omnes Omnibus: How could something that doesn’t come to pass matter? Your question is a category error.

    The question you’re avoiding has a simple answer- no. Trump will not hold a free and fair election. At that point, the only option for those in favor of democracy will be to overthrow the existing government. That might be democratic to do, or it might not, because at that point any actual public opinion polling will be impossible. So if Trump is to win the election outright, fair and square, any choice is the end of democracy. The question will then be, on whose terms?

  181. 181.

    DFH

    “October has turned out to be more of an Advent calendar, with a surprise a day.”

    That is a great line!

  183. 183.

    Pharniel

    Canvassed for One Democrats on the west side of Ann Arbor yesterday.

    They’re trying to turn out 2 people per precinct, which is how much Trump won Michigan by in 2016.

    Bougie new (2000’s) construction, lots of Harris signs. Three people that “Had their vote choice covered” or “Didn’t want to tell” (Trump) voters, but lots more enthusiasm.

    Though it was dampened by the fact that the GOP klowns canvassed the area five times in the last week.

    People answering the door were slightly salty, but also, WTF?

    There’s also a Harris rally tonight at my old elementary school, but partner & I couldn’t figure out how to make that work with childcare for our toddler. Also, the only thing I want as payment for my volunteering is a victory.

    I’m low maintenance like that.

  184. 184.

    Ruckus

    @Aziz, light!:

    Shitforbrains seems to be doing just that, losing supporters. Some going and walking out immediately. I imagine that some will stay no matter what, but if some are not even staying for more than a few minutes it must be as bad as we think it is. Of course if you listen to even one of his tirades then you already know, it’s bad and only getting worse. And if some are going and then walking away, it must be rather obvious, as it is to us.

  185. 185.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SatanicPanic: No, you are justifying ignoring the results of an actual election based on your (not at all unreasonable) belief that it will lead to an undemocratic result going forward.  You get to the same place, but the question is whose fingerprints are on the gun.

  186. 186.

    SatanicPanic

    @Layer8Problem: So, just hand over control of the world’s most powerful military to a guy who has promised to use them on protesters? What’s the benefit to that? We can pretend to be a democracy?

  189. 189.

    TBone

    @Pharniel: my Ann Arbor cousin is SO excited about that rally, she’s not going inside but knows someone who lives close enough that they can watch together from a porch (they’re have a fun, food, and friends gathering together).

    She’s promised to provide me with video!

  190. 190.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @Omnes Omnibus: We gotta fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here or something…

    SP is only interested in their preferred results, morality be damned. If I had to choose between my allies overthrowing democracy or my enemies, I’ll choose my enemies every time.  That way I don’t have to feel conflicted when I start organizing against them.

  191. 191.

    Ruckus

    @Baud:

    Above all, I’ll never forgive Trump for forcing me into an alliance with people I don’t want to ally with.

    That is the minimum reason to not forgive shitforbrains. But if they open their eyes and ears and think and give him up for the other side, they should be welcomed. This is politics, it’s often not rational, it’s often not realistic, it’s politics. It’s basic humanity, it varies a lot, from pure shit to really – what the hell were you thinking, to welcome to reality. It takes all kinds to make up humanity, we should be glad they woke the hell up and saw where they were and what is far, far better

    It’s politics, it’s often not pretty but it is what it is, humanity in all it’s sides, points of view, stupidity, complexity, crap and good.

  192. 192.

    JWR

    @Baud:

    Geraldo to Latino men: A vote for Trump is a vote against self-respect

    Wow. Is this a new look for him, or has reality been creeping up on him for a while now? Hasn’t he long been a hard-right Repub / Trump fellator? Yep, here’s a recent tweet featuring him thumbs-upping with Trump, though I have no idea the age of the image.

    Sorry you went to the dark side. pic.twitter.com/mBqKsPVLN1
    — Geraldo Rivera (@GeraldoRivera) October 28, 2024

    Went to, Geraldo? Sheesh!

  193. 193.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    I’m guessing that Our Media Betters (FTFNYT, Wa(com)Post, Totebagger Radio, etc), aren’t using the term “hate rally” to describe Hair Furor’s Sunday casual get-together.

    Probably doing what they did during Dubya’s torture regime by referring to it as “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques”.

  194. 194.

    SatanicPanic

    @Layer8Problem: I’m not the person to do it. I said Biden should be. What does the law matter when you’re handing it off to a lawless president?

    @The Audacity of Krope: Please explain to me how it can be moral to do nothing in the face of a guy who has promised to use the military on our own people? Would you be the person to explain to the people getting mass deported, or the children being ripped from their families (AGAIN) that actually it was the moral thing to do to respect the results of the election

    EDIT- while you’re at it, why don’t you find some examples of me ever advocating for overturning the election results in, say, 2000, 2004, or even 2016. Don’t make a claim you can’t back up.

  197. 197.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    From a comment above yours:

    the tactics authoritarian regimes use..

    If I understand correctly, that’s What you’re referring to. You have way more pieces of the big picture about how history and law have played out in these situations, in the past.

    When I think about Authoritarian regimes, it seems it takes war, to reset, or a long time, or revolutionary activities, which are by definition, illegal. All I can think of are Italy /Mussolini, Hitler, the cold war, Spain, our war with england, and Uruguay,where they did not have a war, but it took around 20 years to become a democracy again.

    Oh, and Chile. Where our cia went in to help overthrow an elected government, because of whatever our economic and power/ control reasons were. It’s awkward. Everyone knows about this, right? Am I not supposed to mention it?

    It’s getting trickier. I have a long list of names for the kind of history I was taught, and what I was not taught, but that’s for a different moment.

    People are standing up for what they think is right.

    I need to ask one of my brothers or sisters how democracy happened again in Uruguay. News from South America is harder to get, esp before Internet.

  199. 199.

    SatanicPanic

    @Layer8Problem: So you ignore a perfectly rational question that might present some knotty moral questions for you in favor of asking a question that I’ve already said I don’t know the answer to in my very first post.

  200. 200.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @SatanicPanic: Please explain to me how it can be moral to do nothing in the face of a guy who has promised to use the military on our own people?

    Did I say do nothing? Did I not, in fact, propose an alternative course of action; organize against those who overthrow our democracy?

    And I’m a member of a population definitely intended for the gulags. Don’t pull that appeal to shame bullshit.  If Rs overthrow the government, they gotta go.  Same deal with the Ds.

    Basically what you’re suggesting is that losing our country is okay as long as the people you prefer get to choose who gets put in front of firing squads.

    EDIT- while you’re at it, why don’t you find some examples of me ever advocating for overturning the election results in, say, 2000, 2004, or even 2016. Don’t make a claim you can’t back up.

    So I can’t use the fact that you’re advocating for it right now? How about four months ago? You ain’t slick.

  202. 202.

    SatanicPanic

    @The Audacity of Krope: ah yes much better to allow the end of democracy in order for you to get a chance to restore it at some point in the future. In the meantime, sorry about those kids.

    Why do you think Biden or Harris would be just as dictatorial as Trump?

    Update – if I were only interested in my preferred results I’d have advocated for my preferred results in more situations. This one is different. And again- mine is the moral position, yours is the bureaucratic, bloodless position that democracy is only important if rules are followed.

  207. 207.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @SatanicPanic: ah yes much better to allow the end of democracy in order for you to get a chance to restore it at some point in the future. In the meantime, sorry about those kids.

    According to your proposal, that’s what we would get no matter what.

    Why do you think Biden or Harris would be just as dictatorial as Trump?

    If they dictate the end of our democracy to stop Trump? Yes. Definitionally, yes. I don’t want any dictator, malevolent or benevolent.

  208. 208.

    TBone

    @Kelly: we need drop box monitors.  Which totally sucks, but hopefully the people whose ballots were destroyed are alerted that they’ll need new ballots when they read the story or track their ballot.

  209. 209.

    The Audacity of Krope

    Satanic Panic wants to legitimize Trump’s lies, pass it on.

    SP wants a real steal to that MAGA choads can rally to stop and wants half our coalition to join them.

  210. 210.

    ...now I try to be amused

    @Gloria DryGarden: I’ve a feeling that Trump will never be President again, one way or another. There are too many people keenly aware of the threat he poses who have the power to do something about it, starting with the current President.

  211. 211.

    SatanicPanic

    @The Audacity of Krope: is there a situation where Trump doesn’t become a dictator? If so, then if he wins we’re getting one. And that’s the point I’ve been making. You keep acting like there’s a door number three, but there isn’t.

  212. 212.

    SatanicPanic

    “If I had a Time Machine I’d go back and murder baby Hitler”

    Krope “that’s immoral!”

  214. 214.

    Velocifowl

    @The Audacity of Krope:

    If the R’s overthrow the government we aren’t going to be able to get rid of them.  It’s going to end the way Nazi Germany ended with the entire country blasted to bits after a massive war we kick off.   If that doesn’t happen they are just going to remain in power.

    Democracy only works till one side realizes they can’t get what they want democratically.  Then it’s just can kicking till they gain power.  They only need to win once, we need to win every time.

  215. 215.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SatanicPanic: This will be my last comment on this pointless discussion.  It matters because  people opposing the end of democracy will have leadership that did not throw democracy away because it was inconvenient.  When democracy is restored, I want there to be a party with clean hands.  Also, we have no guarantee that Trump would be successful in overturning democracy, but, if our side does it, Trump won’t even have to try.  Sorry, I’m not on board.

  216. 216.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @SatanicPanic: God, you’re a sicko.

    @Velocifowl:If the R’s overthrow the government we aren’t going to be able to get rid of them.  It’s going to end the way Nazi Germany ended with the entire country blasted to bits after a massive war we kick off.

    You don’t know that. Not really. And I’d rather spend the latter half of my life fighting fascism than acquiescing to a different fascism out of my own culture.

  218. 218.

    SatanicPanic

    @The Audacity of Krope: Lol, you’re unhinged. Fascism is not cancelling an election one time because the other guy is an actual fascist. Like I said you’d refuse to kill Hitler because in your mind murder is bad and things are just that simple.

  219. 219.

    Layer8Problem

    “I’d vote for the guy that killed Hitler!”

    Thread’s dead baby.  Thread’s dead.

  220. 220.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SatanicPanic: Okay, really, this is the last one.  No one has advocated that.  Don’t put words into people’s mouths. I think democracy is worth protecting and fighting for.  Fin.

  221. 221.

    The Audacity of Krope

    @SatanicPanic: I would. Because this theoretical baby Hitler hasn’t committed any wrongs. Also, I’m mature enough to understand that those same hateful attitudes that Hitler mobilized to gain power would still be present and history’s greatest monster would have a different name.

    Besides, none of this makes sense for how timelines work anyway. This reality already happened. Adolph Hitler’s rule over Germany was an immutable fact of this timeline.

  222. 222.

    Gloria DryGarden

    @Ksmiami: love it. Close them down legally. I forget which is Sinclair Media. I’m clear about fix though.

    Can we pls also shut down OAN. And news Max? This whole thing w lies and very slanted reporting..

  223. 223.

    HumboldtBlue

    @Baud: ​ 

    I just made a similar comment on Bill Kristol’s thread, that fucker lied us into 20 years of war and was a key architect of how the GOP got to Trump. Fucking angers me he’s on our side, smarmy little fuck.

  224. 224.

    Ghost of Joe Liebling’s Dog

    @Sure Lurkalot:

    It might help if he would just put up a sign that says something like 104 DAYS SINCE LAST SEXUAL HARASSMENT EPISODE. As long as the number isn’t down near zero again.

  226. 226.

    Captain C

    @SatanicPanic:

    refuse to kill Hitler

    By about 1942 it made sense to not kill Hitler as by then he was an unintentional strategic asset for the Allies what with his continuing series of bad decisions and it wouldn’t have stopped the Holocaust, which was by then well underway.  The Brits figured this out by 1944 and took him off the assassination list.

  228. 228.

    Pharniel

    @TBone: ​
     

    It’s an amazing neighborhood, and a great park. I can’t wait to hear why VP Harris isn’t at Hill Auditorium – an amazing venue – and I suspect it’s because Hill just doesn’t hold that many people, or there’s some Message to be sent OR the U of M decided to Play Stupid Games again.

    I am super looking forward to the video. Burns Park is sort of a townie gem, and props to the advanced team for knowing about it.

    And yeah, I’ve kinda wanted a house around there for thirty years. It’s a mix of students renting entire houses, gigantic 3-5k sq ft homes that are still single family closer to downtown, with a selection of more reasonable sizes all over. Almost all of them Arts & Crafts or Art Deco, with some mid-century thrown in for good measure.

  229. 229.

    Msb

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    there were only reps of states prevented from seceding (e.g. MD, KY, etc.). The Democratic Party of the day was more conservative, racist and Confederate-friendly than the Rs of that day.
    The scenes with Congress voting on the 13th amendment always make me cry, especially part of the R leadership welcoming African Americans in the gallery to “your people’s house”.

  235. 235.

    Art

    Art in Florida here:

    Listening to Trump talk about his ‘secret’ in the context of the MSG spectacle it occurred to me that the secret plan might be to use some insignificant typo or defect in the written law to declare PRs ineligible to vote. The ‘defect’ in the settled law would be used to demand a legal judgment, taking weeks, or to simply cast doubt on the legitimacy of the election. This, to get the election into the HoR where the speaker can guide the proceedings to victory for Trump.

    Get out in front of the legalities now and cut the legs from under any such claim.

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